Episode 8 - Avoiding Common Traps in Faith Based Storytelling, With Sean Gaffney

In this episode of the Faith and Family Filmmakers podcast, hosts Geoffrey Whitt and Jaclyn Whitt talk with screenwriter Sean Gaffney. They explore the intricacies of screenwriting for faith-based themes. Gaffney discourages the tendency for story writers to pander to the audience or theme, leading to unauthentic storytelling. He urges writers to let the story naturally convey the theme rather than forcing it. 

They also Discuss:

• Letting theme flow out of the story
• The art of storytelling in musicals
• Testing your themes: writing authentically
• Balancing message and story
• The Power of truthfulness in storytelling
• Allowing Christian characters to have flaws and make mistakes
• Trusting your audience
• His movies In-Lawfully Yours and Not Your Romeo & Juliet
• Understanding the real needs of your clients

Sean Gaffney has authored well over two hundred produced plays, features, videos, animation projects, YouTube series episodes and short films (including for Big Idea and SuperBook). He was the Story Administrator for Warner Bros. Features and the Managing Director of Taproot Theatre (Seattle). Gaffney currently is an Associate Professor in Media Communication and Screenwriting at Asbury University, as well as Associate Dean of the School of Communications. He received his BFA from Drake University, his MFA from Columbia University, and studied with Act One: Writing for Hollywood.

Sean's Website

Sean's Facebook page

@gaffneyinkwell on Instagram

Sean on YouTube

Vimeo: https://www.vimeo.com/gaffneyinkwell

Linked In: https://linkedin.com/in/sean-gaffney12

The Faith & Family Filmmakers podcast helps filmmakers who share a Christian worldview stay in touch, informed, and inspired. Releasing new episodes every week, we interview experts from varying fields of filmmaking; from screenwriters, actors, directors, and producers, to film scorers,  talent agents, and distributors. 

It is produced and hosted by Geoffrey Whitt and Jaclyn Whitt , and is brought to you by the Faith & Family Filmmakers Association

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We will keep you up to date on newly released and upcoming episodes and what is happening in the Faith and Family Filmmakers Association.

Enter the Faith & Family Screenwriting Awards festival

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Copyright 2024 Ivan Ann Productions

Jaclyn: 00:00:00

Alright, welcome to the members only portion of this interview on the Faith and Family Filmmakers podcast.

Jaclyn: 00:00:07

We're talking with Sean Gaffney, and we're going to get into some deeper things about screenwriting and, having it as a career and moving forward in that.

Jaclyn: 00:00:15

So, Sean, I'm just going to hand it over to you...

Jaclyn: 00:00:17

Take it away.

Jaclyn: 00:00:18

I know you've got lots of thoughts.

Sean: 00:00:20

Oh yeah, I'm never at a loss for something to talk about.

Sean: 00:00:24

Writing is my passion.

Sean: 00:00:26

Storytelling is my passion.

Sean: 00:00:28

I can tell you things that I've been thinking about recently, is...

Sean: 00:00:31

when we stop the story to insert something else.

Sean: 00:00:35

And this kind of came up, I was watching a, a video from a, a recent movie, or talking about a recent movie and saying, you know, the problem is, is that we know what the theme is because there is a scene that told us what the theme is.

Sean: 00:00:46

And if you cut that scene out of the movie, It wouldn't have changed a single thing.

Sean: 00:00:52

Theme is not something that you tack on.

Sean: 00:00:55

Theme is something that needs to be baked in.

Sean: 00:00:57

And really, virtually every element is something that you bake in.

Sean: 00:01:01

The same comment came up again with another, video.

Sean: 00:01:04

Screen Crush was talking about, how in Thor Ragnarok, one of the great things about why that movie works so well is that the jokes were, were baked in.

Sean: 00:01:14

They didn't stop the storytelling to now insert a joke or now insert a moment.

Sean: 00:01:18

And you're seeing kind of a trend of, oh, we need to be funny, so let's, let's stop the story for a bit and do something funny.

Sean: 00:01:25

So we see it not just with theme, but we see it with jokes.

Sean: 00:01:27

You see it with action in a lot of movies, where it's like, Oh, things are getting slow, so let's stop the storytelling and insert an action sequence that has no value other than, um, oh, we've got a gunfight, or we've got a car chase, or got...

Jaclyn: 00:01:40

Yeah, like, like musicals.

Jaclyn: 00:01:42

You know, like, Oh yeah, we haven't had a song in 10 minutes.

Jaclyn: 00:01:44

We should put one in.

Sean: 00:01:45

Should put one in.

Sean: 00:01:46

Exactly.

Sean: 00:01:46

now I'm going to sit there and I'm going to sing about my feelings, and you already know what my feelings are, so we don't really need this song, right?

Sean: 00:01:53

Musicals is actually a great way to look at it, because the, the rule of a good musical, is that the songs move the story forward.

Sean: 00:02:01

Anytime you have a song that just says, this is how I'm feeling, and now you know how I'm feeling, it tends to be a bad, uh, it's a bad, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this.

Sean: 00:02:11

I did one of my little vidcasts on The Sound of Music, and I love The Sound of Music, but the song they added for the movie, Somewhere in My Youth or Childhood, I put in that category.

Sean: 00:02:21

It's like, they're in love, they kiss each other, then they sing a song about how they're in love.

Sean: 00:02:25

And then they end up by kissing each other.

Sean: 00:02:26

Well, they've already kissed each other.

Sean: 00:02:27

They already both that they're in love.

Sean: 00:02:29

It's a song that was created for the movie because, uh, some people don't know the rule, but you cannot be nominated for best song in a musical as an Oscar, unless it's original to the movie.

Sean: 00:02:41

So anytime there's a movie adaptation...

Sean: 00:02:43

that's why in Les Mis, there's that dumb song they sing when they're in the stagecoach.

Sean: 00:02:46

Why is that there?

Sean: 00:02:47

Because they needed an original song to be able to nominate, as opposed to storytelling wise.

Sean: 00:02:52

Yeah, so that's why every time you see an adaptation of a stage play into a movie, there's always one new song.

Sean: 00:02:59

That's what they're to The good ones find a way to find a moment that needs a song.

Sean: 00:03:05

And off you go.

Sean: 00:03:07

tell the story.

Sean: 00:03:08

Tell the story.

Sean: 00:03:09

I worked with a guy, Randy West.

Sean: 00:03:11

We wrote about, I don't know, half a dozen musicals together.

Sean: 00:03:13

Uh, the very first time we worked together, I wrote the entire script, like, we would talk about these scenes, and I would write out the scene.

Sean: 00:03:21

And then, turned it over to him to kind of create the songs.

Sean: 00:03:24

And our first day working together, he said, Thank you in advance.

Sean: 00:03:27

And I said, What for?

Sean: 00:03:27

And he said, You're going to write scenes that I am then going to turn into a musical number, and everybody's going to give me all the credit.

Sean: 00:03:36

Like, okay, well, you're welcome, Randy.

Sean: 00:03:38

Off we go.

Sean: 00:03:39

But he's absolutely right.

Sean: 00:03:40

And in a musical, you talk until words aren't enough, and then you sing.

Sean: 00:03:46

And then you sing until lyrics are not enough, and music's not enough, and then you dance.

Sean: 00:03:50

And, and that's the way the good musicals work, is you can kind of feel it's like, ah, I've got to sing right here.

Sean: 00:03:56

I've got to...

Sean: 00:03:57

I can't not sing.

Sean: 00:03:59

That's true for all of our writing, though.

Sean: 00:04:01

So when you're writing your rom com, when you're writing your, your action movie, it shouldn't be a case of, as you said, Oh, it's been 10 minutes.

Sean: 00:04:09

We haven't had a song.

Sean: 00:04:10

We got to insert a song here.

Sean: 00:04:11

It should be that the story is getting to a point where I've got to start running.

Sean: 00:04:15

I've got to start shooting my gun or chasing somebody in the car.

Sean: 00:04:19

I've got to start being funny.

Sean: 00:04:21

It's coming out of the story for you.

Sean: 00:04:24

So find ways to not tack on things.

Sean: 00:04:28

And, and if you think about it in terms of jokes or action or songs, apply the very same principle to exposition, uh, when you have that information the audience needs to know, or the same to theme.

Sean: 00:04:42

The theme should just naturally be, coming out of your story to a point where you can't help yourself.

Sean: 00:04:48

If you have a scene where the entire theme is discussed in the scene, be afraid.

Sean: 00:04:55

Be very afraid.

Sean: 00:04:55

because there's a good chance you're inserting your theme in as opposed to, Oh, the theme came out of the story.

Sean: 00:05:02

Yes, and that's going to be the part where other writers are going to be like Why?

Sean: 00:05:07

You know, like, cause I know I watch movies where everything's going fine and then they say something that's so incredibly expository or on the nose or just not necessary like the whole trust your audience thing, right?

Sean: 00:05:21

Like, trust your actors, trust your audience.

Sean: 00:05:23

what I tell my students.

Sean: 00:05:25

Uh, because otherwise it's just cringe worthy.

Sean: 00:05:29

Oh yeah.

Sean: 00:05:30

Yeah.

Sean: 00:05:30

Yeah.

Sean: 00:05:31

And if you can't trust your actors or your audience, get into another business.

Sean: 00:05:35

There are sermons in the form of a movie, um, and there are movies that have great deep themes.

Sean: 00:05:45

If you're in the business of telling sermons and you're choosing movies as a way to do it, I guess it's okay.

Sean: 00:05:50

You're going to irritate me because you're going to, you're going to make me think that I'm going to see a movie and then I'm going to realize, oh, I'm not seeing a movie, I'm just watching a sermon.

Sean: 00:05:58

Uh, it's going to irritate me.

Sean: 00:06:00

It might help get your sermon to other people.

Sean: 00:06:02

So maybe that's fine.

Sean: 00:06:04

I don't want to say no to that like that should never happen.

Sean: 00:06:08

I wish you just more upfront about it.

Sean: 00:06:09

you know, just put a sign up front saying, Don't plan on being entertained.

Sean: 00:06:13

We're not here to get you lost in a story, and we're not here to tell you something that we think I'm gonna get snarky now, um, that we think would play out in a true story.

Sean: 00:06:22

So therefore, we're gonna manipulate a story to kind of tell something.

Sean: 00:06:25

To me, that's a weakness.

Sean: 00:06:27

As opposed to telling a story that makes you think, that makes you kind of walk out going, Oh my goodness, what am I gonna do?

Jaclyn: 00:06:35

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:06:35

And you, you, can do that.

Jaclyn: 00:06:37

You can have that for sure, and it can be very powerful.

Jaclyn: 00:06:40

it's just that you have to understand that you're writing a script.

Jaclyn: 00:06:45

The story comes first, and the message, like you said, has to be baked in.

Sean: 00:06:50

Right.

Jaclyn: 00:06:50

So in your script...

Jaclyn: 00:06:52

this is actually a great time to come back to In- Lawfully Yours.

Jaclyn: 00:06:54

We spoke about it briefly in the first half of the interview.

Jaclyn: 00:06:56

You mentioned When we first met a few weeks back, you were talking about one of my favorite scenes actually is where the, the woman stands up in church and asks a question.

Jaclyn: 00:07:06

I, that's why I watched the movie, to be honest.

Jaclyn: 00:07:09

When I saw the trailer for it, I was like, Oh, this is good.

Jaclyn: 00:07:12

Like this is hilarious.

Jaclyn: 00:07:14

And I thought it was done really well, but you had even more to say about the process of filming and that characters.

Jaclyn: 00:07:22

Let's get into that for a minute.

Jaclyn: 00:07:23

Cause I think it, it, it goes along with what we're talking about.

Sean: 00:07:26

Yeah, that, that idea that we would have Jesse stand up in church and go, Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

Sean: 00:07:32

What are you saying?

Sean: 00:07:33

Are you actually saying what I think you're saying?

Sean: 00:07:34

That doesn't make sense.

Sean: 00:07:36

That's always been in the story.

Sean: 00:07:38

That's, that's always been core and central to who she is, uh, and core and central to the theme.

Sean: 00:07:44

Cause really, that's the theme in action.

Sean: 00:07:46

You'll notice as you watch it, I don't answer those questions.

Sean: 00:07:49

There are a lot of questions asked throughout the whole thing, that Jesse asked, even with the Sunday school bit, cause they, for those who haven't seen it, some of the church leadership is upset that Jesse keeps interrupting their services, so they decide that it'd be good for her to not be in the service, so they make her a Sunday school teacher, and she just comes in with all the students questions,.

Sean: 00:08:08

it's like, really?

Sean: 00:08:08

This is for kids?

Sean: 00:08:10

But you notice I don't answer any of the questions, because the theme is not...

Sean: 00:08:13

Oh, here's an answer to a theological question.

Sean: 00:08:15

The theme is we need to approach our theology by asking questions.

Sean: 00:08:20

We need to approach...

Sean: 00:08:21

um, according to Paul, we're not supposed to take everything that is said and just say, Okay, well you said it, so therefore I'm going to mimic it.

Sean: 00:08:28

But we're to take it inside of us, and the way we take it inside of us is by asking questions.

Sean: 00:08:32

So that scene is core.

Sean: 00:08:34

The scene where she interrupts...

Sean: 00:08:36

Jesse is set up so she doesn't know any better.

Sean: 00:08:39

She's never been to church.

Sean: 00:08:40

She doesn't know that you're not supposed to ask questions.

Sean: 00:08:43

She thinks it's like a classroom.

Sean: 00:08:45

You don't understand what the professor says, you raise hand and...

Jaclyn: 00:08:47

Yeah.

Sean: 00:08:47

and you ask.

Jaclyn: 00:08:48

Yes, that's why it was so perfect.

Sean: 00:08:50

Right?

Sean: 00:08:51

But not everybody thought it was perfect.

Sean: 00:08:53

One of the producers and the director at one point, they were afraid that people would not like Jessie.

Sean: 00:08:58

They were afraid that, she's gonna come across as rude and we're not gonna like

Jaclyn: 00:09:02

Oh no, she was adorable!

Sean: 00:09:03

So they talked about cutting that...

Sean: 00:09:05

and it was going to break my heart.

Sean: 00:09:07

We talked in the first part about, uh, you get rewritten.

Sean: 00:09:10

In film, once the writer sells the script, it's not theirs anymore.

Sean: 00:09:14

So it was not my script.

Sean: 00:09:15

I had no authority.

Sean: 00:09:17

They kept me on as an on set writer, which is rare, but I got to be there, and I'm very glad I did.

Sean: 00:09:22

I got to make my argument for it, but ultimately, at the end of the day, It would be up to them.

Sean: 00:09:27

Um, and there were two instances where I felt like I'm just gonna be totally crushed.

Sean: 00:09:31

If Jesse is not someone who asks questions, I'm gonna be crushed.

Sean: 00:09:36

Uh, and thankfully, Chelsea Crisp, now Chelsea Reese, uh, was the actress.

Sean: 00:09:40

playing my Jessie, and she absolutely got the character.

Sean: 00:09:45

She got the character better than I got the character.

Sean: 00:09:47

She, she would tell people it was written for her.

Sean: 00:09:49

Um, it was written for her, I just had never met her yet.

Sean: 00:09:52

She was born to play this character.

Sean: 00:09:54

Um, and in discussions when somebody mentioned, Don't you think that people are going to think she's rude and not like her?

Sean: 00:09:59

She's like, don't worry about it.

Sean: 00:10:00

I know how she's going to do it.

Sean: 00:10:01

The way we're going to do it, they're going to love her more.

Sean: 00:10:04

The audience is going to love her and you're proof positive Jaclyn, right?

Jaclyn: 00:10:07

Yes, exactly.

Sean: 00:10:08

We love her for it.

Sean: 00:10:09

We love her because she's asking the things, she's saying the things we wish we had the courage to say.

Jaclyn: 00:10:13

Well, and she's just

Jaclyn: 00:10:14

so authentic when she does it.

Jaclyn: 00:10:16

There is no,

Jaclyn: 00:10:17

she's not trying to be, like, an opposition.

Jaclyn: 00:10:20

She just wants to know.

Sean: 00:10:22

She wants to know.

Sean: 00:10:23

yeah.

Sean: 00:10:23

absolutely.

Sean: 00:10:24

Yeah.

Sean: 00:10:25

Yeah, did work as you say, you watch that in the trailer and thankfully people are like, oh, I want to watch that movie because I want to see that scene play out.

Sean: 00:10:34

No stopping in explaining it.

Sean: 00:10:35

No, we didn't have a scene where they explained, well, this is why it's important to ask questions, blah, blah, blah.

Sean: 00:10:40

Um, there are scenes where that theme is, discussed, but hopefully, artfully, as a way of moving the plot forward, as moving the, arguments forward as, as part of the conflict.

Sean: 00:10:50

So thank you for liking that.

Sean: 00:10:51

I'm, I'm really glad because I loved that.

Sean: 00:10:53

I love that moment.

Sean: 00:10:55

I love that part of who Jesse is

Jaclyn: 00:10:57

Mm hmm.

Sean: 00:10:57

and Chelsea, again,

Sean: 00:10:58

Chelsea's a dream, absolute dream to have somebody who understands your character so well.

Jaclyn: 00:11:03

yes, yes, she definitely nailed it.

Jaclyn: 00:11:06

Um, and I, I guess there's like that, that fine line, like what you said, when you sell your script, it's no longer yours, but you were kept on as a writer, and so there's that fine line between, I need to write according to what the producer wants, but then also I need to fight for certain things.

Jaclyn: 00:11:21

And so figuring out where that line is and when to fight you know, you got to pick your battles kind of thing.

Sean: 00:11:27

Yeah.

Sean: 00:11:28

We talked a bit about service in the, in the first part, and a big part of it is service.

Sean: 00:11:31

So, uh, Rob Kirbyson, our director, is a fantastic director.

Sean: 00:11:35

He, he took a budget of under a million dollars and made it look like a five plus million dollar movie.

Sean: 00:11:40

Amazing artist.

Sean: 00:11:42

And that doesn't mean we agree on everything.

Sean: 00:11:44

And that's kind of the point is we definitely disagreed on a lot of different things.

Sean: 00:11:49

But I have to trust him.

Sean: 00:11:51

The only way he's going to trust me and my argument is if I trust him and his argument, right?

Sean: 00:11:56

So my job at that point was to serve him.

Sean: 00:11:59

And to serve his view of the story.

Sean: 00:12:02

Um, and to trust that, that areas where we might disagree are going to be areas that are better because Rob stepped in and said, No Sean, I think we need to do it this way.

Sean: 00:12:12

And it was absolutely true.

Sean: 00:12:13

There are a lot of areas that I could point to.

Sean: 00:12:15

Some where I'm like, Oh, I'm glad I won that fight.

Sean: 00:12:17

And others were like, I'm so glad I lost that fight.

Sean: 00:12:19

Because Rob, you made it look so much nicer.

Sean: 00:12:22

But if you go into it with a service mentality, which is really hard, because you have to let go of being the parent.

Sean: 00:12:27

You have to let go of this is my child that I birthed.

Sean: 00:12:29

And to go, Okay, I'm going to trust the teacher now.

Sean: 00:12:32

I'm going to trust, I'm going to trust the Sunday school, I'm going to trust the youth leader.

Sean: 00:12:37

I'm going to trust, right?

Sean: 00:12:38

It's that process of, supporting those other players that are going to be leading your child along to your child's adulthood.

Jaclyn: 00:12:47

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:12:47

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:12:47

Film is very much a collaborative effort Like you just said, the actor knew the character better than you did, and was able to bring that forward.

Jaclyn: 00:12:55

And I've heard from a lot of screenwriters that, you know, their actors just ran with it.

Jaclyn: 00:13:01

Like, you don't want to put too much direction.

Jaclyn: 00:13:04

You need to give enough that everybody knows what's going on in the screenplay, but not so much that you're going to stifle that, creative work that each individual can do and that the director can bring forward.

Jaclyn: 00:13:14

plus they're going to cut it if it gets to be too much anyway.

Jaclyn: 00:13:16

They'll just be like, Ah, through this out.

Sean: 00:13:18

Right.

Sean: 00:13:18

Yeah.

Sean: 00:13:18

Yeah.

Sean: 00:13:18

Exactly right.

Geoff: 00:13:20

So Sean, I know that some of what you have to share is a...

Geoff: 00:13:23

pitfalls, or traps that can be avoided.

Geoff: 00:13:26

Um, I don't know, you may have touched on some of those already, but why don't you tell us the things that you think screenwriters can avoid.

Sean: 00:13:34

Yeah.

Sean: 00:13:34

I think especially as writers of faith.

Sean: 00:13:38

I think we're, going to fall into these traps a little bit more than others.

Sean: 00:13:42

Um, and that's the pandering, traps.

Sean: 00:13:45

We see pandering to the audience.

Sean: 00:13:47

You see that, you know, way out of just faith writing.

Sean: 00:13:49

We see that in virtually every genre, right?

Sean: 00:13:51

Where, Oh, I'm doing an action thing, so I'm going to have exploding heads, because my audience is going to love exploding heads.

Sean: 00:13:57

is it advancing your story, or are you just putting it in there because you know the audience is going to love it?

Sean: 00:14:02

We see that in the superhero, you know, people talk about superhero fatigue.

Sean: 00:14:05

That doesn't exist.

Sean: 00:14:06

Um, there's bad storytelling fatigue.

Sean: 00:14:09

We get tired of bad storytelling.

Sean: 00:14:11

Um, it doesn't matter whether there are superheroes in it or whatever it is.

Sean: 00:14:14

But you'll see that in the, in the fan service.

Sean: 00:14:17

So you see that in the Star Wars and the Marvel and the DC.

Sean: 00:14:19

It's like, why is this scene there?

Sean: 00:14:21

Well, this scene is there because the fans really would like to see it, as opposed to it telling the story.

Sean: 00:14:26

So be careful of any time you're saying to yourself, Oh, the reason I'm doing this is the audience really needs to see this, or the audience really wants to see it, or they're going to be upset if they don't see it.

Sean: 00:14:34

Be thinking, does it serve the story?

Sean: 00:14:36

And when you leave serving the story, you're always in trouble.

Sean: 00:14:39

I think as Christians especially, we pander to theme.

Sean: 00:14:42

We have a message that we want to give out and we force the story to tell the message the way that we think the message should be told.

Sean: 00:14:51

Um, that's not good storytelling.

Sean: 00:14:54

Uh, it feels like it's good, you know, I'm being a good Christian because...

Sean: 00:14:58

I say we, as Christians, we love to lie in our movies.

Sean: 00:15:01

And one of our favorite lies is, if you become a Christian, then your life is golden.

Sean: 00:15:05

The answer to everything is Jesus.

Sean: 00:15:07

Once you accept Jesus, you now have enough money, the girl that you want is going to marry you, you're going to have your sports car, you know, whatever it is, right?

Sean: 00:15:13

And we know that that's not biblical.

Sean: 00:15:14

we...

Jaclyn: 00:15:14

That's so not Bibilical.

Sean: 00:15:16

Right, it's kind of like, Oh, Paul his horse on the way to Damascus, and he never had another bad day again.

Sean: 00:15:22

It was great, right?

Sean: 00:15:23

Yeah, that's never...

Sean: 00:15:24

Anytime I've listened to anyone's testimony that has never been a part of it Like at least not like an immediate thing.

Sean: 00:15:31

Obviously once you start walking with the Lord things will start changing in your life, but it's not like an overnight thing where all of a sudden, everything's coming up daisies or something, you know like, it doesn't work that way.

Sean: 00:15:43

And what's happening is God is changing us, not our circumstances.

Sean: 00:15:47

My favorite Christmas special of all time is Charlie Brown.

Sean: 00:15:51

The Charlie Brown Christmas.

Sean: 00:15:52

And that's one of the things that I point out in that, is that Charlie Brown starts out depressed, and he ends happy.

Sean: 00:15:59

His circumstances haven't changed at all.

Sean: 00:16:01

Not a single thing that he complains about that is going wrong has gone right.

Sean: 00:16:06

His circumstances haven't changed.

Sean: 00:16:07

Charlie Brown has been changed.

Sean: 00:16:09

And that's, really what storytelling is about.

Sean: 00:16:11

That's what God is doing in us.

Sean: 00:16:13

It isn't that, oh my goodness, at the beginning of this I had so many hardships, and now I don't have any hardships anymore.

Sean: 00:16:19

It's, In the beginning I had these hardships, and I didn't have the tools to deal with the hardships.

Sean: 00:16:24

And that's our story over and over and over again.

Sean: 00:16:27

Frodo is not stronger at the end.

Sean: 00:16:30

He's not suddenly a man, or a wizard, or an elf or a dwarf.

Sean: 00:16:34

You know, when he's at the Council of Elrond, I'm sorry I'm going to geek a little bit here...

Sean: 00:16:37

He's at the Council of Elrond and he says, I'm a hobbit.

Sean: 00:16:40

I'm not equipped.

Sean: 00:16:41

The man is better equipped, the wizard is better equipped, the elf is better equipped, the dwarf is better...

Sean: 00:16:45

He doesn't become those things, but he has changed in who he can be and how he can see himself and what he sees as success, and that allows him to get the ring to where the ring needs to be...

Sean: 00:16:57

because of the journey.

Sean: 00:16:58

And if Tolkien pandered to theme, we wouldn't have had that.

Sean: 00:17:02

If he said, Oh, I need to force this so that my theme works out.

Sean: 00:17:06

Pixar, uh, especially earlier Pixar, One of their rules is you can't name the theme until after the first draft is written.

Sean: 00:17:15

And then you read the first draft of the story, and the story tells you what the theme is.

Sean: 00:17:19

And so then you go back and you build up the theme, but you're not going and changing things to try to force the theme because the story is already told you, No, this is what this is what our story is about.

Jaclyn: 00:17:29

That flies in the face of Save the Cat.

Jaclyn: 00:17:31

Moving forward.

Sean: 00:17:32

Yeah, and

Sean: 00:17:33

Sometimes you do start with theme.

Sean: 00:17:34

I mean, certainly VeggieTales, Big Idea, they're called Big Idea because they start with the big idea, they start with the theme.

Sean: 00:17:40

For those of you who, who want to be writers, especially if you're going to be in this market or if you're in the children's market, you have to start with theme, because that's what the market requires.

Sean: 00:17:48

One of my students is writing a, a script about music.

Sean: 00:17:50

We're teaching music history.

Sean: 00:17:52

Music history has to be part...

Sean: 00:17:53

that's why we're doing this.

Sean: 00:17:55

So the theme, the idea is there, what you have to teach is there.

Sean: 00:17:58

The trick becomes reverse engineering., So that you're not saying to yourself, Okay, I've got this theme and now I'm going to take this story and I'm going to force this story to tell this theme.

Sean: 00:18:08

It's to be thinking, well, what stories have this theme?

Sean: 00:18:11

It's a little bit extra work.

Sean: 00:18:12

It's a little bit extra set up of...

Sean: 00:18:14

What story is already talking about what we want to talk about?

Sean: 00:18:18

what, what kinds of stories challenge or test this?

Sean: 00:18:22

I think, um, we don't like to test our themes.

Sean: 00:18:24

Uh, we like to say, you know, Christians are good and atheists are bad and, so therefore we're not going to have any test of that.

Sean: 00:18:30

Let's have a bad Christian in your movie and let's have a good atheist and see what happens because they exist, right?

Sean: 00:18:35

Um, let's test the theme.

Sean: 00:18:36

Do we believe that you become a Christian, then your life is better?

Sean: 00:18:40

Well, let's not, say we're going to prove that because at the end of our movie this guy is going to become a Christian.

Sean: 00:18:45

Let's, uh, make him a Christian at the beginning of the movie, and, and give him challenges.

Sean: 00:18:50

Um, there's a movie, I'm, I'm blanking on the name of it now, but it was about a, a mob lawyer who becomes a Christian at the end of Act One.

Sean: 00:18:56

And so now the mob doesn't want the mob lawyer to be out there with all their secrets, and his life gets worse.

Sean: 00:19:04

Um, because we're, we're testing that theory.

Sean: 00:19:06

But at the end of the day, at the end of the movie, is his life better, or is it not, having gone through what he went through?

Sean: 00:19:12

Uh, so, so sometimes, you know, you're, if you're given a theme up front.

Sean: 00:19:16

Ask yourself, well, what would test that?

Sean: 00:19:19

Bruce Almighty is, testing the idea that if you have everything, does that make you happy?

Sean: 00:19:25

So we give Bruce everything.

Sean: 00:19:26

He is God.

Sean: 00:19:27

He's literally doing God's job for a day, right?

Sean: 00:19:30

Is that enough?

Sean: 00:19:31

Let's test that.

Sean: 00:19:32

Um, it makes his life worse, right?

Sean: 00:19:33

Because he finds that he needs to change, not he has to be all powerful.

Sean: 00:19:37

So I, just did a, a movie called Not Your Romeo and Juliet.

Sean: 00:19:39

And it's, it's set place on college and it's all about love.

Sean: 00:19:42

Uh, so I, wanted to test romantic love, the ideas of romantic love.

Sean: 00:19:46

How does that align with the Bible?

Sean: 00:19:47

So really it's a movie about 1st Corinthians 13, is really what it's about.

Sean: 00:19:51

And I had a list of 1 Corinthians 13, uh, and it says Love is not boastful.

Sean: 00:19:55

Okay, what situation would make somebody boast?

Sean: 00:19:58

Love doesn't seek revenge.

Sean: 00:19:59

Well, okay, what would make somebody seek revenge?

Sean: 00:20:02

You know, love, love doesn't remember, uh, all wrongs or, right?

Sean: 00:20:06

So I was going, okay, how can I test all of those?

Sean: 00:20:08

And I took my two characters.

Sean: 00:20:10

And I made them test that.

Sean: 00:20:11

I made them go, Let's try it.

Sean: 00:20:13

Let's try it.

Sean: 00:20:13

What is love like if it's boastful?

Sean: 00:20:15

What is love like if it's this?

Sean: 00:20:16

What if we think that that's what love is supposed to be?

Sean: 00:20:19

And I don't think I'm pandering the theme there.

Sean: 00:20:20

because I'm finding where is the story talking about the theme rather than where am I forcing a theme.

Jaclyn: 00:20:28

Right.

Jaclyn: 00:20:28

And even um, asking good what if questions, you know, like, that really helps a story to flow.

Jaclyn: 00:20:37

And, and natural, like, the next step, the natural next question, right?

Sean: 00:20:42

yeah, yeah, what if, right?

Sean: 00:20:44

what if this happens?

Sean: 00:20:45

And, and then honestly following it.

Sean: 00:20:48

And then honestly letting your characters go where your characters would go, rather than trying to force them to do the right thing.

Sean: 00:20:55

Flaws, character flaws, this is another big problem that we have, is we like our good guys to be perfect, and none of our good guys, except for Jesus himself in the Bible, are perfect.

Sean: 00:21:05

And even Jesus...

Sean: 00:21:06

the people he was surrounded by would not say he was perfect, right?

Sean: 00:21:10

They complained all the time about, you're not doing this right.

His disciples: 00:21:12

you need to be doing it this way.

The Pharisees: 00:21:14

you need to be doing it this way.

The Pharisees: 00:21:16

the Romans, you need to be doing it this way.

The Pharisees: 00:21:18

We need characters who are not perfect in order to show whether something is true or not, because no theme is true if it only works on perfect people.

Jaclyn: 00:21:27

Mm hmm.

Jaclyn: 00:21:27

Exactly.

Sean: 00:21:28

So let's have our characters have flaws.

Sean: 00:21:29

Let them make mistakes, and see what comes out of their mistakes.

Jaclyn: 00:21:34

And is Not Your Romeo and Juliet available right now?

Jaclyn: 00:21:37

Is it

Sean: 00:21:37

out?

Sean: 00:21:38

Yeah, yeah, you can find it on Amazon, um, it's on a bunch of different websites, I think it's on Voodoo right now, But if you go to my website www.

Sean: 00:21:46

gaffneyinkwell.

Sean: 00:21:47

com, you can find a listing there that'll tell you all the different places you can go to see that.

Sean: 00:21:52

Yeah, I have three features out there, two of them with Corbyn.

Sean: 00:21:54

In Lawfully Yours and Mary for Mayor: Corbin Bernsen produced both of those, and they're out there and available, and Not Your Romeo is out there available.

Jaclyn: 00:22:02

Perfect.

Jaclyn: 00:22:03

I'm looking forward to watching it.

Geoff: 00:22:04

Well, we'll look forward to watching more...

Geoff: 00:22:06

ones we haven't seen.

Sean: 00:22:07

And please check out my little mini, five minute...

Sean: 00:22:09

I'm kind of proud of these because they're, they're really rough in a really good way, I think.

Sean: 00:22:13

But just little five minute nuggets that I'm doing on vidcast.

Sean: 00:22:16

So find those, subscribe, and let me know how I'm doing.

Jaclyn: 00:22:20

Yeah, for sure.

Jaclyn: 00:22:21

That's amazing.

Jaclyn: 00:22:22

Thank you for sharing that.

Sean: 00:22:23

Sure.

Geoff: 00:22:23

Sean, were there any other, uh, traps that you wanted to mention, or did you kind of cover that?

Sean: 00:22:29

yeah, kind of, you know, marketing.

Sean: 00:22:31

Let's stop marketing our religion.

Sean: 00:22:33

Let's not market the gospel, let's tell the gospel.

Sean: 00:22:36

Let's stop trying to protect God in our stories.

Sean: 00:22:40

I, I think God is strong enough to protect himself.

Sean: 00:22:43

Um, I think people are, are excited and interested in when we tell the truth.

Sean: 00:22:48

And I, I believe, I, I follow a guy who is the way, the truth, and the life.

Sean: 00:22:53

And if, if I tell the truth, I will be okay.

Sean: 00:22:56

I think with a lot of our stories, we're trying to market something with them.

Sean: 00:23:00

I think even when you're working for a client, be subversive with your clients, people.

Sean: 00:23:05

In that, uh, they think they know what they want.

Sean: 00:23:09

But they don't always know what they want.

Sean: 00:23:11

Um, And our job isn't always to give them what they want, it's to give them what they need...

Sean: 00:23:16

to give them more than what they wanted.

Sean: 00:23:18

We're the experts at telling story.

Sean: 00:23:20

Um, so they think, I want a story that does A, B, and C.

Sean: 00:23:23

And we're going, no, you don't want a story that does A, B, and C.

Sean: 00:23:25

That's going to be boring, that's not going to come to the result that you want it to come to.

Sean: 00:23:29

And we deliver to them a story that gets to their result better than what they thought they wanted.

Sean: 00:23:36

That's how we make the business grow.

Sean: 00:23:38

As an artist, embrace the fact that you're an artist.

Sean: 00:23:41

Embrace the fact that God gave you stories to tell, so that even when you're working for a client, and I'm not saying don't do what they ask.

Sean: 00:23:49

I'm not saying rebel.

Sean: 00:23:51

I'm not saying, you know, make a stand if you don't do it my way.

Sean: 00:23:54

Listen to them.

Sean: 00:23:56

Listen to them and figure out what they really want, not what they're saying that they want.

Sean: 00:24:02

And then we can make, really, wonderful, glorious, true gospel stories,

Jaclyn: 00:24:08

Yeah.

Sean: 00:24:09

in the process.

Jaclyn: 00:24:10

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:24:10

Sometimes the complaint seems to be somewhere around in the the late half of the the movie, but the problem actually is back in the beginning and so as the writer that's where we can figure out okay what is it that's really needing to be worked on here is it this piece that they're complaining about or is that piece a reflection of something else that needs to be dealt with.

Sean: 00:24:32

Exactly right.

Sean: 00:24:34

Exactly right.

Sean: 00:24:34

It's, it, we're looking for what we call in the business the note behind the note.

Sean: 00:24:38

So they say, oh, I don't like this in Act 3.

Sean: 00:24:41

And typically if there's something they don't like in Act 3, Jaclyn, you're dead right.

Sean: 00:24:44

It's a, it's an Act 1 problem.

Sean: 00:24:46

We didn't set it up.

Sean: 00:24:48

We didn't set it up.

Sean: 00:24:48

right.

Sean: 00:24:49

And then you change the setup, and then they're like, that rewrite you did in Act 3 is amazing!

Sean: 00:24:52

It's like, Didn't change a word.

Jaclyn: 00:24:53

Oh, I love it now.

Sean: 00:24:54

Just Just changed the setup.

Sean: 00:24:55

That's right.

Jaclyn: 00:24:56

Yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:24:56

yeah.

Jaclyn: 00:24:57

Perfect.

Jaclyn: 00:24:57

Well, thank you so much, Sean Gaffney, for being on our podcast.

Jaclyn: 00:25:02

Um, I've learned so much.

Sean: 00:25:04

Thank you for having me.

Sean: 00:25:04

This is fun.

Sean: 00:25:05

I love talking to you guys.

Geoff: 00:25:06

So much great advice with regards to, faith based filmmaking and screenwriting.

Geoff: 00:25:10

The type of thing that might not be in every interview, but so important.

Sean: 00:25:14

You're very Welcome.

Geoff: 00:25:15

Thanks again.

Jaclyn: 00:25:16

God Bless.