“Doubt keeps us humble and curious. If you didn’t experience this healthy and normal emotion of doubt, it means that you wouldn’t care about your audience. It means you wouldn’t care about doing good work.” – Kelli Thompson.

Joining Aoife on the podcast this week is special guest Kelli Thompson. Kelli is an inspirational women’s leadership coach, speaker and author who made the brave leap of leaving a secure job with Corporate America to start her own practice to help empower women across the globe. Kelli’s mission is to help women create a career they love and advance and make an impact in the rooms where decisions are made.

In this jam-packed episode, Kelli shares how to ignite your confidence and create a career you love. We learn about workplace issues faced by women, how imposter syndrome is self-sabotage and why we need to normalise feelings of doubt and trust our bodies. Kelli also asks how you would like to be described when you’re not in the room? Key points throughout the episode include:

- An introduction to Kelli Thompson.

- Overcoming the confidence gap.

- Systemic inequalities and likability bias in the workplace.

- Reframing flaws into gifts.

- The importance of setting boundaries.

- Workplace wellbeing and the unpaid workload of women.

- Trusting your body and listening to your gut.

- Imposter syndrome and the impact of expensive thoughts.

- Stretching your comfort zone and creating emotional resilience.

- How data can reveal reasons for change.

- What Happier at Work means to Kelli.

“As a woman leader, trusting your gut is going to be your competitive advantage at work if we really want to redefine workplaces and lead in a whole new way in a way that feels right for you.” – Kelli Thompson.

COMING SOON! Kelli’s book Closing the Confidence Gap lands on November 1, 2022.

For early access opportunities, join the waitlist at https://www.kelliraethompson.com/

THE LISTENERS SAY:

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Resources:

Listen back: Karin Tischler on Flexible Working for Gender Equality

https://happieratwork.ie/happier-at-work-46-karin-tischler-on-flexible-working-for-gender-equality/

Connect with Kelli Thompson:

https://www.kelliraethompson.com/

https://www.kelliraethompson.com/book

https://www.instagram.com/kelliraethompson/?hl=en

https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/kelliraethompson/

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

https://www.happieratwork.ie

https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien

https://www.twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ

https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie

https://www.facebook.com/groups/happieratworkpodcast

Welcome, Kelly, to the Happy at Work podcast. I'm absolutely delighted to have you as my guest today. And I'm so excited for our conversation. Having done a little bit of research about you, your upcoming book, I think we're gonna have a lot to talk about today. Excited. Do you want to give people a little bit of a flavor for what you do, how you got to where you are now?

Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. So I'm Kelly Thompson. I'm a women's leadership coach, and I'm an author. But I wasn't always out on my own running my own business. I actually started in corporate America. Excited. So I'm a corporate veteran. My first job was flipping fries at McDonald's when I was 15 years old, so I've been working for a long time. And, excited. I went to college or university as some people call it. I know, in Europe and, you know, spent the majority of my years in banking and in investments excited. Where I was predominantly, you know, one of the only women in the room, especially when it came to those higher level rooms and where decisions were made. It was not uncommon for me to, You know, be the only woman or one of the only women. And after spending about 14 years in banking, I decided I was ready for a change, excited. A little bit less regulated, something a little more innovative. And so I went to go work in technology. And in technology, we were a health care technology firm. And so, ex Again, I found myself many times

You're

a new woman. As one of the few women in the room. I keep going to these these industries. Went to go work for a leadership development consulting firm, and so I found myself traveling, all over the country, all over North America, really. Ex And I was doing leadership training, leadership consulting, and I started to get into a little bit of 1 to 1 coaching, and I loved it. Excited. I always loved coaching when I was in corporate America as well. I loved having 1 on ones with my team members. I loved, you know, really that career mentoring, developmental coaching that comes with being a leader. And I was really tired of traveling. So in my last 2 roles, I was on the road sometimes, 50% of the time. My daughter was getting a little older. She was in middle school at this point. I was divorced, and I had now met my my second husband who I'm married excited today. And I was like, this being laid over in airports just is not glamorous. I wanna be home with my people, excited. Really loving a lot of the 1 to 1 coaching work, and that's when I decided to take the brave leap out of corporate America. This was 2019 and start my own coaching practice. And so I've been doing that ever since. You know? I started in 2019. I kinda just did generic leadership coaching, And then COVID hit, and everything shut down. I lost about 80% of my revenue in what felt like overnight. It was about a period of a month, You know, because companies were canceling contracts because they're tightening up budgets. Speaking of events, we're canceling.

I think, isn't it? Yeah.

And so that really caused me to ask myself, okay. If I literally can't lose any more money, like, do I love my business? Ex You know, what do I really wanna focus on if things literally cannot get any worse? Because now I have the opportunity to really go in on what I wanna go in on. And one of the things I know you're passionate about and that I was passionate about from all of those years as being one of the only women was I love coaching women. I love addressing all the systemic challenges that women have in the workplace. I love addressing all of the things that we have to overcome. I love to talk about some of the unique approaches that women have to take and things that they have to consider, and that just lights me up. And so I just decided to go all in on coaching women. I now focus. Excited. I've written a book about leadership for women. I coach women as my my my primary, my primary client unless I'm working with teams and corporate. Excited. And so here we are today, and it's totally transformed my business. And, you know, I'm looking forward to what's next. So

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And for the benefit of listeners who don't know the name of your book, can you tell us the name of the

Oh, yes. Yes. Absolutely. So I did write a book. I kind of left out that small detail. Excited. I get so passionate about who it's for. I forget to say what it is. My book is called Closing the Confidence Gap, boost your peace, excited. Your potential in your paycheck, and it is written definitely for corporate women. I think entrepreneurs will find it helpful as well. But it's really written, for kind of the Person that that I used to be and who a lot of my clients are. So

Yes. No. I love that. And like, I think that's really, Kelly, where I would love to start the conversation today is talking about maybe generically what is the confidence gap. But you mentioned some things there like at systemic challenges that women face in the workplace. And maybe we can touch on some of those from a couple of different perspectives. So it's mostly women who listen to this but there are some some men who listen as well. And the men who listen are very supportive of creating those environments where women are able to excited as well and knowing the benefits of having the diverse workforce, especially at those senior levels. So maybe we can talk, first of all, what is confidence gap, and then dive into some of the challenges that women face so that they don't feel like they're on their own. Like, that they don't feel like it's only me who's having this issue, which I think sometimes when we have problems, especially at work, we tend to feel like we're the only person who's experiencing that

with you. Yeah. 100%. So the confidence gap is a real thing. It's a real study that came out of the Wharton School, at the University of excited. Pennsylvania in the United States. And, basically, what the researchers were taking a look at is why does there seem to be This confidence or this self advocacy gap in gender. Mhmm. And so what they did was they took a group of individuals And, they gave them kind of this the standardized test that they were supposed to take. And then, they didn't tell them the results of this test, but, basically, after they took the test, based on how they thought they did, they were supposed to go and advocate that to potential employers excited. And say, hey. I just took this test. Here's how I think I thought I did. And then I kinda advocate their abilities to these employers. Well, as you can maybe imagine where this story is excited. Men had no problem taking this test, going to these potential employers, advocating their brilliance as you would say, excited. And, you know, advocating for themselves. And so what would happen is is men would be, more frequently hired. And when they were hired, They got higher starting salaries because, again, the self advocacy is there promoting their abilities regardless of how they actually did on the test. But I I bet you also know where this is going in that who do you think actually did just a little bit better on the test? Ex I can guess

that I'm a little bit better

on the test. Not by much, but just a little bit better, but they were much more hesitant in self advocacy and self promotion. And so what that resulted in was fewer job opportunities and lower starting salaries. And so as a result, they kind of called this the confidence gap. And the the researcher said, you know, their recommendation was, ex and I'm quoting this verbatim. Well, maybe if we just tell women that they do better, then their confidence will follow suit. And so in my book, I basically say, yeah. That's not gonna cut it. Like, we can't just, like, say, oh, you're smarter, so good luck. I really advocate. This book is written, as a both and. And when I say both and, It means that what I'm recommending is, yes, we we need to address women's confidence at the individual level. One of the main reasons why I see women holding back is ex Because of doubt and imposter feelings. The feeling that they're gonna be found out as a fraud, that they all of their success has just been luck. And when they get to that next level, People are gonna find out that they're not as good as they thought they were. And, yes, as a woman, there are things that we need to be accountable for and look internally and say, okay. Maybe there is, You know, some mindset work. I need to work on some limiting beliefs. I need to work on my self promotion and advocacy. Yes. I need to look at the evidence that I did better on the test, ex And here's the and. Organizations also need to address the systemic inequities ex in the workplace today that perpetuate impostor syndrome. Let me give you some examples. These can be things like You have an all white male leadership team. Yep. And so if you have an all

environment that people find themselves in. Yeah. Excited.

Yeah. And so it's no wonder that women and people of color feel imposter feelings, and there's a research that's been done on this. You know, people who've experienced racial discrimination or expect to be stereotyped based on their gender have a higher incidence of feeling those those imposter feelings. Why? Because they've never seen themselves in the rooms where decisions are made. So if you've got an all white male leadership team, it might be time to evaluate where maybe there could be some at issues at play

Yeah.

That perhaps some increased diversity, some psychological safety, making sure that there's a diverse group of voices heard will also benefit the confidence of not just women, but people of color, people who are traditionally underrepresented in the workplace today. And so excited. That's kind of the confidence gap. That's an introduction into some of the systemic issues that we talk about. I also talk about the gender pay gap, which I know you've talked about in your podcast.

Excited to talk about it. Yes. Gender pay gap as well.

Yes. And I talk about the unpaid workload of women and how women often get more nonpromotable tasks at work or they get more kind of office housework.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And we aren't paid for it. And so Yeah. You know, I talk about Not only those systemic issues and what needs to change in the workplace, but what as women, what do we need to do to advocate? Right? It's the both end.

I'm sold already, Kelly. I wanna read this book. So

Yay. I'm excited.

Later of when it's coming out, how to get it, and all the rest. I do have a question. My research nerdy brain has a question about this. Going back to the stats, and maybe you don't know the answer excited to this. But I wonder, is there a way to find out? But I'm curious, is there a correlation between, say, if you isolated women and women who performed particularly well in the test, ex is there a difference between how they perceive themselves versus the women who didn't do as well as them? And similarly for the men, I just wonder maybe you don't know the answers excited away. I do wonder if there's a way to find that out because I'm curious to know that if someone it is more inclined to to perform better in that situation. Are they more or less inclined to say how well they did?

That brings up a really good point. And I don't know that answer from the research and if that research went into it. But you bring up something really, really important, and then I think excited. But let's just take my daughter for an example. K? She's almost 17 years old. She's not a great test taker. You know, she has lots of excited. She's really smart. She's a hard Yeah. Yeah.

Actual test taking. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

So, you know, I think sometimes there's a little bit of performance anxiety that comes with excited. And so if you put her in a situation where she's gonna be taking a standardized test and then she has to advocate based on how well she did on that test, She might not have the self confidence because she's got a history of telling herself, oh, I'm not a good standardized test taker.

Yeah.

But if excited. Put her in a situation where she has to go advocate for her abilities on how empathetic she is and how she's great at in her job. She's a barista. Okay? And we always joke excited. That, there's there's a few things that people are emotional about, and one of them is food and especially how they take their coffee. And so when excited. Like, you know, if somebody messes up your coffee or your tea order or whatever that looks like, she deals a lot of customer resolute you know? You know, making customers happy. Excited. Her to advocate on that, and it might be a different story. So I think you bring up a really good point where we're asking, like, what's the basis for which, You know, we're asking them to self promote, you know, and what's their history of performance been with that. And does it does that tell the whole story? It may not.

Yeah. Yeah. I excited. From a personal perspective, I am good at taking those kind of tests. And I know that I'm good at taking those kind of tests, but what does that say about me in other aspects. And so I think yeah. I mean, that's that's a much broader discussion, but maybe I'll have a dig around that research afterwards and see if I can fine to have they kinda sliced it in in that particular way. That's just my research and early brain going Yes.

Oh, I'm with you. I'm all into that. Yes.

Excited. So how about we start then with the with the individual side of things? And then we can go on to talk about organisations and what organisations can do to address these issues. So what what are the issues that that women are facing at work? So we talked about the imposter feelings and, like, not feeling good enough. Excited. What are some of the issues maybe that are cropping up, or what are some of the ways that we can address those?

Mhmm. Absolutely. So I addressed a few core issues in my book from the individual level.

Yeah.

So, the first one that I would say that I address head on is is kind of the likability bias. Oh, yeah. Women have often been told that being direct, assertive means you're bossy, means you're a bitch, means you're unapproachable. And then at the same turn of the coin, men are being rewarded for and being told, hey. You need to be more direct.

Yeah.

You need to be more assertive. And so one of the things that I address head on in the book in the first couple of chapters is how important it is to do 2 things. 1, embrace all of those flaws and, you I can I'm doing flaws in quotation marks as gifts ex Because my the way I see it is that, you know what, because you are direct does not mean that it's a flaw because you're assertive, because you're too excited. Sensitive because you're too chatty. Whatever you've been called, I'm sure women can resonate that they've been called

something. Like You're too much of something.

Too much excited you've been

yeah. You're too quiet. You're too loud. You're too assertive. You're too passive. You're too yeah. It's always Absolutely. Too something.

Yeah. And so, like, so much You're just too much. Just too much. Instead of saying, like, that that's your flaw, like, what if that's your greatest gift? Excited. So I encourage women to say, well, because I am direct, I am able to blank, insert whatever. I I want you to really think about, well, because I'm assertive, because I've been overly sensitive. What has that enabled you to do? How was that actually your superpower? Excited. And the second thing that I encourage them to do is really to define a set of leadership values. So what do you stand for as a leader? Because if you don't know what you stand for, ex It can be really tempting to fall for just about anything. And as a woman leader, you're gonna be called to make a lot of decisions during the day. You're gonna be inundated with a lot of well meaning advice on how you should do things. You are often gonna be told that you're too much of something. And so when you can really Go back and think about, well, what are my leadership values?

Yeah.

A way you can define that is to ask yourself, well, what are 3 words that I want people to use me ex to use to, to say about me when I'm not in the room.

Yeah. I love that.

That can be a really good way to find your leadership values. And so ex If I want people to call me, you know, creative, respectful, and empathetic, well, how can I be direct, which was always my flaw? I'm too direct. Ex How can I be direct and respectful? How can I be direct and creative about my approach to this? How can I be direct and empathetic? So it's really kind of blending in, you know, some of that gender likability, really falling back on your leadership values.

Ex Some of the other issue issues that I see that,

you know, women need to address in the workplace, personally, is we talked about doubt. We talked about imposter feelings. So so that's in there. But really setting boundaries.

Yeah.

Really being clear on what you will do and what you won't do. Recognizing how much unpaid workload you're being with every day. Little things like, are you always the meeting note taker? Are you always a person that's planning the corporate party? Are you the person that's constantly providing emotional support ex During times of change and when, you know, everything's going awry, and they've asked you to now lead employee resource groups or other committees, know, to help people along, but you're not being compensated for any of those duties. And so a big chunk in the book is, you know, how to really make sure that we set boundaries, And we're not taking on all of this unpaid work because it's perpetuating the gender pay gap, which I also talk about and how women need to speak up and ask for what they want at work. And I would say the final thing I think that's really important about this book beyond, you know, making asks for salary, speaking up at work, And providing a framework for that, but really trusting yourself. Knowing how to trust your gut ex And really becoming intimate with how your gut says, heck yes or hell no.

Because

as a woman leader, trusting your gut is excited. Be your competitive advantage at work if we really want to redefine workplaces and lead in a whole new way, in a way that feels right for you. So so those are just a few things that excited that I talk about.

Kelly, so much to unpack in what we just talked about.

There is a there is a lot to unpack.

There's loads. But no, I love it. I love it. There's loads of things I just want to kinda highlight, I to illustrate to people, like, this idea of leadership values. Now I talk a lot on the podcast about this concept of values, but I'd never thought about it from a introspective of setting your own leadership values. What are the nonnegotiables for you as a leader? How would you like to be described when you're not in the room? I'm being really clear on those. So exactly like you say, you don't get derailed by well meaning advice saying, sorry, Kelly. You're actually too direct. So, you're gonna have to manage things in a different way. But but being really true to yourself to know what you stand for, I really love how you've approached that, the likability idea and how, yes, women are perceived as, aggressive when they're being assertive. Whereas if a man is assertive, he's perceived as having great masculine qualities and that's something that's something yeah. Yeah. He's he's great. And and I have seen and read a lot about a shift in how we're leading and how these more feminine qualities are coming through in leadership and being recognized as really important part of leadership as opposed to the default being you need to be assertive, you need to be, this, you need to be that. You know, all of the things that we associate typically with with a male leader, you know? So absolutely love that. We kind of brushed over doubt and imposter feelings. We can come back to that maybe. The idea around boundaries, I love that as well. Gender pay gap, we can touch on that a little bit later. This idea of trusting yourself, I think it's important maybe to excited to dive into that in a little bit more detail because I think we have become so disconnected from ourselves physically that we don't know excited what our gut is saying and how to trust our gut. So do you wanna talk a little bit more about, like, how to bring ourselves back to being able to trust what it is that we're feeling in our body when we get a sense of like, I'm not sure if this is right or like who should I listen to or logically that doesn't make sense, but actually my gut is telling me something. Do you wanna talk a little bit more behind that?

Oh, I love this. I love to geek out over this. So let me just ask you. And then when I'm asking you, I want the listeners to ask themselves this question. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever felt something in your gut and you you felt it, but, like, literally, you just couldn't put words to it? You were like, excited. I you know, they they just won't come out.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Such a good illustration. I think of everybody who's felt that, they're like, Yes. I I felt that, and I I, like, I I just have this gut intuition meta thing. Or I do this in. And Yeah. Or I don't know how to communicate it. And, really, what's happening is what cognitive behavioral researchers say that your body is wiser than your mind because your body has all of these senses that are taking in information Intuitively. But your verbal brain can only process this information at about 40 bits per second, where your nonverbal brain can process it, they say, at 11,000,000 bits per second. Excited. Okay. So that's why you get feelings on things. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you know, you might get a feeling to be like, you know, Anita, I need to get a second opinion. You know, if you're a mom, maybe you get a feeling where you're like, you know, I just I need to go check on the baby one more time. Right. You just get these feelings about things. And I think in corporate America, I used to run leadership development programs. I used to teach management at the local university. Excited. And I will tell you the biggest difference, on on what I talk about what I teach versus what they teach in corporate programs is that ex corporate programs, university programs are all neck up leadership development. How to read a profit and loss sheet, how to put a PowerPoint deck together, how to devise a excited. You know, how to look at the pros and the cons. Right? A lot of that is all neck up, head intelligence.

Yeah.

You know, it's really using your COO and your CFO, Right. In in your head. But what I think that we have not done a good job of, and this is what I say to a lot of my clients, is we have not done a good job of what I call neck down leadership into development. Yes. Only in the pandemic have we realized how great leaders are when they are neck down leadership developers. And what this looks like when it comes to your intuition is it's really going into what I call your, your chief human resources officer, Your heart asking yourself, what do I value in this situation? When I make these decisions, how do I want people to feel? You know, what's really important here when we think about outcomes? And then I often call your gut your CEO. It's, you know, being able to start with your CFO and your COO, you know, that brain in your head that can look at the data, looks at the facts, looks at the scenario. Right? Like, takes a look at all of that and starting there, going in and, you know, looking at the values, but then really checking in with your gut And asking yourself, what is mine to do here? Like, what is the right thing to do? And like I always tell my clients, the right excited. Decision will always fill of peace, and it will never fill of dread. And that's your CEO. That's your intuition. Excited because my hunch is and I'm just kinda throwing it out there for everyone who's listening. My hunch is that when you've been faced with a decision, Just notice how your body reacts. Typically, the right decisions for you feel open and airy and kind of light and freeing. Even if they're a little scary, like, leaving corporate America to start my own business was terrifying, but I literally could not help myself. Excited. It was like a magnet. It was exciting. It was energetic. It was, like, pulling me to it. Anytime I've been in a decision that's wrong for me, I've always had body ailments, ex Sickness. Like, I felt a sense of heaviness and constriction and dread, kind of like this little nudging that's kinda like, hey. I don't know. Hey. I don't know. You might wanna check this again. So I would really encourage you as a leader to go in and check-in with your body. And And if you've never done this, I just want you to know how normal that is. Because you know what? We we live in a world that, validates 2 things for women. 1, Overexercise and over diet and ignore being hungry because thin is good, thin is beautiful. So a lot of people don't check-in with their gut. I know I was one of them because I was too busy over exercising and disturbing myself. The anything from the neck down, like, just don't pay attention. Don't don't pay attention to the man behind the window down there. Right? And I see another a lot of people who also numb themselves through overworking, hustling. They're too busy to slow down and check excited. But the problem is is that when you you can't, like, selectively numb things. So when you're numbing all of those body instincts to slow down or eat when you're hungry or all those sorts of things, you're also numbing your intuition. So it's gonna be really important for you as a woman to just honor that your body is trustworthy.

Yeah.

And to slow down and to listen listen to what feels like peace, excitement, and happiness, and just notice where your body is just slowing down and saying, you know, this feels a little tight. Feels a little constricting. It feels a little bit like like dread. So I could go on for that for hours. It's so important to listen.

Before we go on to talk about companies, organizations, the systemic nature of the issues that women face, do you wanna talk a little bit about doubt and imposter feelings? I it's something that I am hugely passionate about. It's something I talk about all the time. Excited. And I suppose I want to make more people aware that it is a thing and that most people excited at some point. I've recently carried out some research into it and who it impacts. And it came out that of the survey of of the survey respondents, 90% of people had experienced in the past or are currently experiencing it. And I just thought that's I mean, I've seen stats that say that 70% of people experience it at some point in their career. I'm not sure the origin of that, but I see it quoted absolutely everywhere. So just to kind of reassure people that if that's how you're feeling, it's perfectly normal.

Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. Absolutely. So well said. I like to talk about the difference between doubt ex And impostor syndrome.

Yes.

Yeah. One of the reasons and let's just kind of, like, walk ourselves into this. So excited. I often say that what precedes doubt and imposter syndrome is often what we're thinking about. Excited. It's kind of like, doctor, Daniel Amen. He's a found he's a neuroscientist. He's the founder of the Amen Clinics, and he says that as humans, ex We have automatic negative thoughts, ants. Like, on average, we're gonna think between, like, 12 to 60,000 thoughts per day, and, like, 75% of those are negative or attentive. So I want you to just, like, kind of think about what you're thinking about because what I often say and what kind of propelled the subtitle of my book is that so many of our thoughts are expensive. I'm not qualified. If I do this, I'm going to fail. If I speak up, people will think this is stupid. Excited. Why do I always look so terrible in my clothes? I don't look good. I don't sound when I go when I speak up. I hate the sound of my voice. I mean, there's just all of these just junky spots excited. Thoughts, and I call them expensive thoughts. Yes. Because expensive thoughts are costly to your peace. They're costly to your potential at work, and they are ultimately costly to your paycheck. And when they're costly to your piece, your excited. In your paycheck. Guess who also pays the price? Your company. Your company, you know, has a you know, also, like, because you're not excited. Showing up in your full potential and giving your ideas. Your company is not as profitable and all these things. So I always say, let's think about what we're thinking about and question if they're really true Because they can cause 2 things. The first 1 is doubt. Doubt is a normal and healthy human emotion. Like, if I could shout from the rooftops, it would be this. Everybody experiences doubt unless you are a sociopath. And if you are a sociopath, you you are not listening to this this podcast. You're too far Here's the thing. Like, most, like, really successful leaders have experienced really strong bouts of doubt Before they go on to do great things because

Yeah.

Doubt keeps us humble and curious.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Didn't experience this healthy and normal emotion of doubt, It means that you wouldn't care about your audience. It it means that you wouldn't care about doing good work. So doubt is so normal. Normal. Normalize. Normalize. Normalize. Normalize. Where imposter feelings, I think, really become a problem, and I had someone, at a women's leadership conference that I was leading say this so well. She goes, you know what? Imposter syndrome is self sabotage.

Yeah.

It is allowing doubt to become so restricting at a level where we start to play small. We don't apply for jobs that we're fully qualified for. We don't make the asks that we need to make. Yeah. We don't put ourselves in the rooms and advocate and speak up in ways, and that's, excited. You know, really sacrificing your potential in your paycheck. It's like that consistent self sabotage. So, again, I wanna normalize again because I've I also quote this, you know, 70% of people have felt imposter syndrome. And so if you're feeling this way, I kind of have a framework I talk about in the book, and the first one is just to just to notice it. Like, you're not going to criticize your way into more confidence.

Excited. Yeah.

Trust me. I've tried.

Yes.

Yeah. If if you could criticize your

weight, you

have more confidence and let me know.

You're really bad, but excited. Can you just do better because you're bad? Better. So I

just want you to notice it with a ton of self compassion. No judgment. You know? I notice I'm feeling some doubt. Excited. I just I just notice it. I notice there's some things happening in my body right now or in my thought track. And then I just want you to name it. Like, being able to name those emotions doesn't give them power. It creates emotional resiliency, and it kinda takes their power away. Like and it's, excited. For me, it's putting it's going neck down. It's putting my hand over my heart, trusting my body, and saying, you know what? This feels like doubt. Ex feels a little bit like impostor syndrome, which also means I'm probably feeling a little insecure, maybe a little worrisome, little nervous, little exposed, Maybe a twinge of excitement. So noticing it, naming it, and then just normalizing it. Like, this is normal. Like, normal, normal. Everyone experienced as doubt unless they're mentally unhealthy. 70% of people experience impostor syndrome, and then reframing it.

Yeah.

This is what growth feels like. This is what stretching my comfort zone feels like. Yes. Everything feels uncomfortable for the moment while I'm taking that brave next step. I had a Colleague who's who brilliantly said he goes, you know, my kind of reframe it phrase is this is only gonna hurt for a minute. And he's so right because, you know, sometimes when you're Pressing send on that really important ask, it does. It just hurts for a minute, you know, and then you do it. And you're like, yes. This feels excited. Good because I'm acting in alignment with my values, and I'm taking brave next steps. Like, you can do confident things while also feeling nervous, while also feeling doubt. Yeah. Yeah. So notice it, name it, normalize it, reframe it. Love it. I have to do it every day, several times a day.

Love it. Lots again to kind of pick pick up there. But one thing I wanted to illustrate was around this idea of self sabotage. Attached. And maybe this comes into the noticing it because sometimes we do that subconsciously. And I've noticed myself and and when things happen or when I forget to reply to someone who I it's really important that I reply to that person or miss a deadline or miss something. I have to look at myself and think, what's going on there? That's on the subconscious level. I'm sabotaging myself because it's not conscious. I might have realized too late and I'm like, okay. I need to address that now. So I just wanted to illustrate that that it sometimes it's we might not even notice that we are self sabotaging, that it's very

much on

your unconscious level. Yeah.

And one thing I would this week. Excited. To me too. It like, so I'll just out myself because I have no problem, like, telling, like, where I fall short. So I'm writing this book. Right? And as part of writing a book, you're supposed to get Blurbs for the back cover. Right?

Oh, of course.

Yeah. So one of my I'm you just illustrated it. But one of the ways I know I'm self sabotaging is when I start extolling and procrastinating. Mhmm. And so I was I I really wanted Adam Grant to write a excited. He was he was, like, my my moonshot. Like, this is my big goal.

My idol, basically.

And yeah. And so I was, like, okay. Excited. I was perfecting the book. Like, honestly, it was in a good enough spot that I had gotten other blurbs. You still had a few edits to go through, you know, but the book was 95% of the way there with just some, you know, ex Basic editing. But I was waiting. I was like, nope. I'm gonna wait till it's perfect. I'm gonna wait until, like, everything is locked down, and then I'm gonna send it to him. So I finally freaking got up encouraged to email him. You know, I find his email address, send him the pitch, and he responds back. You know, it only hurt for a minute, and I hit send. And then he actually responded back fairly quickly, and I'm And he said that he, you know, he thought this was a good angle, and he wanted to see my full manuscript. And I'm like, oh god. This is it. This is it. And then I sent him back the full manuscript, and he's like, okay. What are the due dates? And so I kinda give him, like, a good, better, best in terms of, hey. This is ideal. This would be good. And he goes, oh, he goes, well, has your book gone to print yet? Because I only blur books when my blurb can be on the cover of the 1st print run. And so I go to my publisher, and I'm like, when does this actually go to print? We can hold it. It was going to print, like, that night or the next day. So I had to respond back to excited. Be like, well, actually, it's going to print tomorrow, and I realized you can't read my book in a day. And he's like, I'm so sorry. I wish you the best of luck. It's just not gonna work. Excited. But when you talk about self sabotage, that was such a learning moment for me this week that I'm like, because I procrastinated waiting for perfection, excited. Scared that he would read my manuscript and think it was stupid or he was gonna debunk all my ideas. Like, all of this mind trash. All these expensive thoughts were causing me to procrastinate. Excited.

And I

lost out on what could been a really valuable opportunity. And, like, the so I'm so glad you brought that up because it's in those little moments sometimes that we see ourselves procrastinating, not replying. Right? Not, like, conveniently forgetting things that we have to go in and be like, what's really happening here?

Excited to introduce Yeah. What an what an amazing example. And and, like, I'd be exactly the same. I'd be like, Adam Grant doesn't want to read my book. Yes. Like, no way. He's this, you know, amazing organizational psychologist. He's gotta completely be like, blow all of my research out excited the water. We're like, what are you talking about? This is all rubbish, you know. So brilliant. I absolutely love that example. And it's so interesting, telling Kelly, when you talk about your framework around notice, name it, normalize, and then reframe it. Because when I talk about imposter syndrome, the first it's aspect of it or it is really the identification. So it's acknowledging acknowledging that it's impostor syndrome, acknowledging that it's kind of ex it's almost separate to yourself and giving it a name. So naming it as imposter syndrome, but giving it a name as you know, it can be missus Hannigan from the Annie movies. It it can be Sandra, which is my impostor. You know? Is that Aoife speaking or is that Sandra speaking? Is that Sandra trying to self, you know, sabotage? So absolutely absolutely love that. And this is the only you're going to hurt for a minute.

I know. I have to give credit to my colleague, Darius. He said that his name is Darius, excited Darius. So once. Yeah. We gotta give that to Darius. I'm like, oh, well, that's timeless wisdom.

Yes. And I think Darius has gotta be quoted all over by social media excited when this podcast comes out. It's absolutely brilliant. I love it. I think now, you know, just in the interest of time, we're having such a wonderful conversation. I would love to talk excited the organizational side of this and the systemic issues that issue that exist in organizations and what we can do as leaders to address them. What we can do as women, how we can support ourselves, how we can support other women, how we can support organizations, how we can get other people involved, men, non non binary. How do we get everyone involved in Yeah. In addressing these issues?

Absolutely. Excited. So my mission as a business and what I say in the book is I'm on a mission to help women advance to the rooms where decisions are made. And so my call to action in this book is diverse leadership teams. The only way we're gonna change things systemically is when we have diversity and quality in the excited to see your most decision making rooms. And this is not just in corporate. For anybody who is listening in the United States, ex This is really important in our government policies today. It's in no matter where you live, it's important in government policy to have diversity in the people who are making the rules because, Traditionally, we have grown up in a patriarchal environment. This is not men being bad. It's just that for the last several 100 years,

Yeah.

Men were in charge. Women stayed home, so men made the rules. The the the workplaces, the government systems were made by men, You know, for the benefit for men. It's just the way it was. There's no blame. This is not a blame statement. Those are just facts.

Yeah.

And so if we want to change workplaces, We need to have more diversity in the rooms where decisions are made. And one of the things I advocate for is we can change workplaces by changing 1 woman at a time, And that's my focus. Because if I can help 1 woman at a time, maybe she'll have the courage to speak up. Maybe she'll have the courage to run for office. Maybe she'll have the courage to go for the promotion. And when we start to see more women in leadership and we start to see more women advocating, I'm sure You and everyone listening can think of a woman that you saw show up, speak up, excited. Take a risk. And because she did all of those things, it probably inspired you to do the same. You're like, oh my gosh. Her speaking up and saying what she really thought and how she really felt was so freeing. Right? It's like it's freeing for us to watch that, and that's it's what creates the ripple effect. So I think to change the systems of work, we need to see more diversity in leadership. The research shows that companies are more profitable ex When there are women in the senior most positions, when they have more diverse leadership teams, I mean, study after study after study. So I advocate that this is not just a social justice issue.

Mhmm.

This is an economic issue that can't be ignored. Yeah. And so it's going to take, yes, Women showing up, but it's also going to take some brave men who and there are ones out there who are less concerned about preserving the status quo and more concerned about, advocacy and equality and recognizing that it's actually good for them too because when they make more money, they can build bigger tables. So I I really, really think that that's where it needs to be focused because then the systems will change, the policies will change, and I think everything kinda trickles down from there.

Excited. I love that. Make more money to build bigger tables.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's what they all want. It's what we all want. Right? More impact. Impacts our communities, everything.

Yeah. Impact on the the whole of society really, isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. So in in addressing this issue at a systemic level, it's really done by 1 woman out of time. Is there anything else that we could do to support that, to facilitate that, to make sure that that happens at an organizational level rather than thinking about it 1 woman at a time. Is there anything else you think that on on a bigger scale that we could do?

So one of the things I've seen organizations do really well is, to focus on the data. So I'm thinking of 2 organizations in particular that, as an example. They went in and looked at the data for a few things. One, they did an assessment to Discern if there was any gender pay disparities. Step 1. Let's look at the data. Let's compare equal titles because we need to rectify some pay issues ex Because, inequality and pay can lead to disengagement, dissatisfaction, and ultimately turnover, and turnover is really costly. Okay? So that was step 1. Step 2, they looked at the data to say, what is the rate of, women turning over versus men turning over. Like, let me give you an example. So they looked at who was being promoted up the scales in leadership and then, thus, who was leaving. And what this organization found was when there were, candidates being eligible for promotions, men were being chosen for those promotions more times women even though there could have been, you know, equal candidates. And then what would happen is because women weren't getting promoted, They were looking at exit surveys, and they noticed that more women were leaving and citing a lack of development or promotional opportunities. Yeah. And so One of the ways that they really started to impact and make change was by looking at hard data. Like because sometimes it's really hard to argue with the data, and excited. Yeah. The data as a reason for change. And we said, hey. Not only do we need to pay folks equally, but we need to make sure that we are, ex Promoting folks at, you know, an equal rate. If there aren't enough female or, you know, people who identify as Women candidates or non binary candidates, you know, available for promotion. What are we doing? Then the the second thing was to look at, okay, well, is there a disparity there in leadership mentoring and development. Are men, you know, getting more development opportunities? And so, therefore, their names are mentioned. They're in the rooms. They have more Skills, and so do we have equal development opportunities. And one of the things that I really encourage employees to take a look at, and I know these clients did too, is to recognize that Since men are primarily in the decision making rooms, they receive a lot of informal mentoring because they're in the rooms. They they watch the dynamics. They see how things play out. Right? They're in the room where it's happening, you know, and that in and of itself is development because you're you're in the rooms. And so how do we give equal and, ex Development opportunities for women. And so when I talk to organizations about this, I really encourage them to look at the data first. Yeah. Because it's it's hard for folks who've always benefited from the ways of doing things to look at unconscious biases because excited. We all have biases, but we all like to think we also have no biases. So, I mean, like, let's just be honest. Right? And so that's a really hard punch to go in with when it from a diversity lens. So I think it's really important to look at the data and let the data tell the story, and then look at the results that you want excited to create and then start to ask yourselves. Well, if these are the results data wise that we want to create in terms of equity, inclusion, results, innovation, revenue, etcetera, well, then What different choices and what actions do we need to take, you know, to to get that result and really coming from a data driven place? Because then then folks excited. May typically soften a little bit towards looking at unconscious biases and those sorts of things. So

Yeah.

Data's a good place

to start. Speaking my language now with my market research, data analytics background. So I love talking all of this kind of stuff and using ecstatic data that that organizations already have access to. This is not additional. They should have all of this information already, and really look at that. And I love what you have to say about, well, you know, men are already in the room and they're therefore, their names are being mentioned. They're getting this, like you say, informal mentoring. But the idea then that we never think that we have bi we always think that we're totally un prejudiced and and unbiased in in lots of different ways when in fact, the biases normally are unconscious said we're not actually aware of them. I know there's a big talk around unconscious bias and, you know, the jury's out on whether that really works or not. You know, some people say that it it works well. I've seen people doing training in it. But on the other hand, it's like, if it's unconscious, it's can you really bring it to that level of of a consciousness that you're actually aware of that. And you're so

Oh, absolutely.

The the people who have always made the decisions are the ones who need to be challenged the most because they're doing you know, this is the way things have always been done. This is the way we've always done things. And therefore, it it has it's never been a problem before. And it's like as more women rise through the ranks, as more women get to those more senior positions, it becomes an issue for them. You know? The the kind of solid examples I'm thinking is having meetings at times when children need to be collected where women are typically, you know I'm I'm not painting broad brushstrokes here. You know, it's typically women are the ones who are collecting kids at a specific time. And meetings are held at that time. It was never an issue before. But now that excited. A woman is in the meeting room and she has kids. She has to go and go and collect them. So Yeah.

It's a 100%. I hear from my clients all the time.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a a real kind of solid example of things that actually happen. Kelly, we've been talking for a long time, but lots and lots of gems in there, lots of nuggets of information. The question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

You know, being happier at work, really means things twofold things for me. Being happier at work typically means that I me, personally, I'm using my best talents every day. And when I'm using my best talents every day, there's like And you all know if you're listening right now, like, there's an energy that comes through you. There's an excitement. There's a geekiness. Right? Like, I just can't wait to go do this. And when you are that excited. Not only do you contribute better to your organization, but you come home from work with more to give because you're not zapped ex from that energetic toll of, like, pushing a rock uphill all day long. And then when I think about being happier at work, it it really also, twofold, then impacts ex the organization. When you have when you take the time and energy to really get to know people and know what makes them tick and what their talents are and aligning as when I say aligning their purpose and their paycheck, It benefits the organization too because you have people who have more energy at work. They get things done quicker. They're better to their colleagues, and ultimately, that's more profitable to excited. So, it's all just about energy, you know, and, you know, what the energy can do not only to somebody personally, but professionally as well. So

absolutely love that. If people want to reach out, if they want to connect with you, what's the best way to do that? And and also please tell us about your book. When is coming out. How do we preorder it? Yes. All of the the good stuff.

All the good stuff. Okay. So my hardcover, The audiobook, everything that comes out through the bookstores, Amazon, all the good stuff comes out November 1st. However, If you are somebody who doesn't like to wait for things, I have a partnership. I know. I have a partnership through an ebook company. It's kind of like a Kindle, only it's interactive with, like, book club discussions. I have a partnership with them. It's called Fable. You can just download the Fable app, And there will be opportunities to access it early. I think at the time you are listening to this, we're currently in a book club cycle, but there will be another one popping up, I think, in the at September 1st ish time frame, if you went a little early. Otherwise, you can wait for all the traditional formats November 1st. So it's closing the confidence gap, boost your peace, your potential, and your paycheck. The best place to go is just to go to closing the confidence gap .comforward/book. And then I'm on social media. I love me some Instagram. I'm at Kelly Rae Thompson, Kelly with an I, r a e, Thompson. And then, I'm on LinkedIn too, so you can also find me, at Kelly on LinkedIn. I think it's in forward slash Kelly Rae Thompson as well. And then, yeah, send me a message. I'd love to hear what you learned and

Brilliant.

Talk to you.

Yes. Absolutely loved the conversation today. Loved your energy, Kelly. So thank you so much. Thanks for your sharing your insights, your wisdom. Absolutely loved the conversation today. A thank you.

Oh, likewise. Thank you so much for having me.