It didn’t start with a niche, it started with a perspective. And in just a few short years, Karen has turned that perspective into a fast-growing travel business that’s on track to hit $1M in annual sales in 2026.

Since entering the industry in 2022, Karen has built her business around accessible travel, not as a checkbox, but as a core part of how she serves every single client. As a wheelchair user herself, she brings lived experience into every itinerary, helping travelers navigate a world that isn’t always designed with them in mind… and showing them what is possible.

Karen is a firm believer that accessible travel isn’t just for a small subset of clients, it’s something every advisor should be thinking about. From mobility needs to invisible disabilities to simply asking better questions, she shares how advisors can create more inclusive experiences without feeling overwhelmed or out of their depth.

In this episode, Karen walks us through how she’s built trust with her clients, the realities (and misconceptions) of accessible travel, and how focusing on this space has not only made her business more meaningful, but also incredibly successful.

Whether you’re just starting out or looking to better support your clients, this is a conversation that might just change the way you think about accessibility in travel.

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Hi everybody, and welcome.

I'd like to start with a special thank you to today's sponsor, IMG

Global Travel Insurance Welcome.

You are listening to Travel Agent Chatter, volume 36.

Travel Agent Chatter is an audio series produced by the team here at Host

Agency Reviews each and every quarter.

So without any further ado, let's get the show on the road.

I am Shayna Zand, Managing Director of Host Agency Reviews and the

host for today's interview.

So what do we have in store for you today?

Obviously a whole lot of fun because that's all we do at HAR is have a whole

lot of fun, and of course education.

So a little bit about what we'll be talking about today.

this didn't just start with a niche.

This started with a perspective and in just a few short years, Karen

has turned that perspective into a fast-growing travel business.

Her agency, Joyword Travel, that's on track to hit $1

million in annual sales in 2026.

Since entering the industry in 2022, Karen has built her business

around accessible travel, not as a checkbox but as a core part of

how she serves every single client.

As a wheelchair user herself, she brings lived experience into every itinerary,

helping travelers navigate a world that isn't always designed with them in

mind and showing them what's possible.

Karen is a firm believer that accessible travel isn't just for a small subset

of clients, it's something every advisor should be thinking about, from

mobility needs to invisible disabilities to simply asking better questions.

She shares how advisors can create more inclusive experiences without feeling

overwhelmed or out of their depth.

In this episode, Karen's gonna walk us through how she's built trust

with her clients, the realities and misconceptions of accessible travel,

and how focusing on the space has not only made her business more meaningful

but also incredibly successful.

So whether you're just starting out or looking to better support your

clients, this is a conversation that might just change how you

think about accessibility in travel.

So today any links or resources that we talk about can be found in today's

show notes, which you can find by visiting hostagencyreviews.com/tac

and clicking on episode 36.

Now a map for today's talk.

We'll be covering a variety of topics in each segment, so here's what they are.

We're gonna start with the beginnings into operations, sales and marketing,

then we're gonna jump right into accessible travel, a little bit of

wisdom from Karen, and then of course we'll finish with our indispensable

question that we ask everyone.

There's a lot to talk about, so let's get things started.

Karen, welcome to Travel Agent Chatter.

Thank you so much Shayna.

I'm so happy to be here today.

Oh, we're so happy to have you.

I cannot wait.

Everybody lock in.

We've got such a great time with Karen for the next 60-ish minutes.

You know us, we always like to go over a little bit because great

information is great information.

but Karen, if you could get us started, with how did you end up in travel?

Sure.

I think like most of us, I've always been the travel planner

for my friends and family.

Mm-hmm.

From mapping where we needed to stand when I first went to Disney World with

my parents when I was about 10 years old, to planning every senior trip,

spring break, travel, bachelorette party, and milestone birthday.

So for me, planning travel and thinking about it has been

something that's been core to my being since I was a little girl.

So inevitably, people always asked me where to go.

I tended to be one of the most well-traveled people in my group of

friends, and I thought that I could help more people get places when I

started getting asked, as a marketing consultant, how did I travel with a

wheelchair so easily and so often?

And that is what really spurred this desire to think about

travel as a second career.

I just didn't really expect it to be this big so quickly.

Yeah, that's wonderful.

So did you end up traveling a lot as you were growing up, or is it something you

kind of came more into through adulthood?

We traveled a lot in the continental US when I was a child.

We had done trips to Hawaii and Mexico, but never to Europe or Asia.

But it was always something I was passionate about.

I did a study abroad program when I was in high school through my school, spent

four weeks in Spain, and was hooked.

And from then on, I always sought out experiences to travel as much as possible.

Oh, amazing.

so I'm gonna jump a little bit into the operations of your business and

give- Okay … our audience a little bit of information around that.

We know they love to hear more.

so with your advisor business, so you started in 2022, so not that long ago.

do you now, as an advisor, do you charge fees?

Why or why not?

Sure.

I've now started two businesses.

I've had a marketing consultancy and now I have a travel agency, and

in both cases, I really use my own network of referrals to get started.

Mm-hmm.

Both of my business started it … with an email and a text message to

people I had worked with in the past.

So for me, building businesses always came from that personal connection When it

comes to planning fees, I will admit I'm not really consistent with a methodology.

Since a lot of my clients came to me early and I have a deep personal relationship

with them, I don't tend to charge fees.

For new clients or cold leads coming in, especially if it's a complex

trip, I will charge a planning fee.

But that is something that I'm really looking at as something

that I need to add to my business.

That's really great to know.

I think there's always a bit of a trepidation to charge fees, so I

think it's great to understand wha- when you do and when you don't.

for everyone here in our, in our notes for the episode, we'll include an

article about fees, different types of fees, what that looks like, what

people typically charge, just to give anyone who's listening a little bit

of direction in terms of if you're looking to start charging fees, a

little bit of help for you there.

We'll also link our annual report so that you can see who in the travel advisor

space, we have over 3,500 advisors who respond to this survey every year,

and we have a whole section on fees.

So a great way for everyone listening to learn a little bit more.

But we'll link those, in the notes for you all.

okay, so with your clients, what is your process overall for booking clients?

So walk me through from when they reach out to you to when they come home.

Yeah, I love having personal conversations with clients.

I feel like that's irreplaceable to really understand what matters to

them, hear a little bit about their preferences, and get a sense of

their tone, their vibe, what type of things they will like and not like.

I sometimes think you can learn the most from what people

are not interested in doing.

I had a client recently ask me about a trip to Paris, and I mentioned a flea

market that I've loved visiting, and her answer was, "Never in a million

years would I want to do that." So that already gives me a good guidepost, right?

She wants a little more of a modern, fresh experience.

So I think that's really helpful.

So it starts with that phone call, and then it… I try to turn around

that synopsis of what they're looking for quite quickly so we're on the

same page before we start planning.

Depends on the budget.

If it's a DMC type vacation, then I'll send everything at once.

But a lot of times people might be looking to optimize hotels, really stay

somewhere lovely, do a mix of high and medium properties, and then add in a

selection of group and private tours.

So if that's the case, I usually start with hotels and follow

up with tours and transfers.

Yeah.

No, that's great.

And then we say they, they go ahead, they book the trip now.

Sure.

So now they're traveling.

what do you do when they come home?

Is there any kind of process you follow for kind of post, post-trip follow-up?

I always check in mid-trip.

Mm-hmm.

And obviously, like all of us know, if there's a problem you do always

hear about it while they're on their

vacation.

What?

No way.

Always.

Always.

when they come home, I do send links to give reviews.

I find that a lot of my clients text me, and they usually are

texting me either from the airport on departure or even the plane.

Usually that is the last I hear of the trip review.

I think I can be a little more dedicated at soliciting reviews post-trip,

but I think when people have come back after a really busy vacation

and they're back in work mode or life mode, sometimes it drops off.

But it is very important, I know that for my marketing business, to have reviews.

Although, I do find that the word of mouth is even probably more impactful.

Sometimes they won't fill out the review form, but they will send you

three or four or five clients, and that's a trade-off I'm willing to accept

Yeah, absolutely.

I know I've sent, pretty much anyone I've worked with from a professional

standpoint that I've enjoyed working with, like for, I say like my real estate

agent, my travel advisor, people that I've worked with, I have continuously referred

friends and family to them, absolutely.

So referrals- Yeah … are huge.

I think that's important.

I think sometimes we can get so caught up in, templates that other

people use to grow their business, and you have to really think

about what has worked for you.

In my marketing business, in my travel agency, I've

always grown by word of mouth.

Mm-hmm.

So I try to lean in there, and I don't often like pressuring clients to fill out

forms or do review documents if that's not part of the equation that works for them.

So I try to keep it as natural as possible.

Yeah, and I think that's wonderful that you've found what works-

Mm-hmm

… works for your business.

And I always love when there's different perspectives on it, especially for

everyone listening, because y- one way isn't necessarily the right way, right?

there's different- Right

ways, um, and if one isn't working, the great thing is that

there's other options as well.

So I really like that.

And I'm, yeah, I'm a big, I'm a big referral girly.

I think referrals, even for us over here at HAR, I get referrals to

some wonderful new businesses, that are starting in the industry and,

and that's how I hear about them.

so I always find that super interesting, so I love that.

speaking of, some new businesses or kind of a new, a new-ish space is kind of that

technology space, in this industry really focusing on travel advisors, which I love.

Is there any technology that you use to run your business?

Do you have any favorites that you wanna share?

Yeah, I'd have to say one of the things that really attracted me to Fora was

the technology, and we've been doing releases almost weekly since I've started.

Wow.

So the tools that we have now at our disposal is almost an embedded CRM

as well as a very streamlined booking tool that keeps having new additions

come, whether it's a flights booking engine or a cruise booking engine

or bookable quotes where I can send hotel options to my clients- Mm-hmm

that they can even click through and book and be attributed to my

IATA, has been really lifesaving.

I have found that I prefer, given how I'm wired, to have everything in one place.

Mm-hmm.

It was overwhelming for me, and I've used some good software, but I find

it to be overwhelming when there are multiple pieces of technology

you're using in different ways.

Mm-hmm.

I do like this integrated one view, way of working, and I'm excited

about what's coming up next.

Yeah, weekly releases.

Wow.

I mean, I've worked on the technology side.

that's, that's, that's quite a feat.

for everyone listening, we will link to our travel tech directories, and Fora

is featured in there, so definitely check out what they have to offer

in terms of their technology and if that's the right fit for you, Mm-hmm

and to see what else is out there.

but yes, Karen, I, I agree with you.

there's so many different platforms out there, so many, so much different,

like, so many different types of technology, which is wonderful.

Right.

And I think for everyone, like you said, using one piece of

technology that brings everything together works really well for you.

And I think for everyone listening, really good to understand you

don't need to use everything.

Not everything is meant for you and your business.

Um, so make sure you don't get all googly-eyed at everything that you see

because not everything is meant for you.

And when sometimes when you have too many different pieces of technology,

that's when it can become overwhelming.

I think especially when you start your business too, I would say

focus on, like, what are the things that you have to be able to do?

Focus on that and find what tech can help you s- support that.

And I know Fora has kind of built kind of an all-in-one, which is very exciting.

Yeah, I mean, I like the ability to be able to book a hotel for a

client from my phone because I've used that in multiple settings.

I'll be out to dinner with someone and they'll say, "Hey, I'm going

to Palm Springs for three days," and I can quickly pull up a quote-

Yeah

… show them the perks, and do it on my phone in three minutes.

Yeah.

I don't think I would've done a career shift, while already owning a

marketing company if I had to learn a new language and I had to learn deep

tech skills- within GDS or others.

Yeah.

So having that really user-friendly interface has

been a core part of my business.

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Yeah, amazing.

I love that.

Also, we'll share one more link for everyone, which is our HAR Wired.

Yes, the name is super cute because we are all over here at HAR.

which is the travel agency technology event that's happening

at the beginning of June.

Mm-hmm.

depending on when you're listening to this, everything stays

recorded in our YouTube channel, so feel free to go check back.

and it's complimentary, absolutely free of charge for anyone who wants to join.

So we'll share that as well.

now getting into the sales and marketing of it all, how

do you market your business?

What's worked best for you in the last few years?

Shana, I keep it consistent.

I think we, a lot of times, get shiny object syndrome when we're

starting a business, and I did this myself with my marketing consultancy.

Yeah.

I'd worked with big brands all across the country, Fidelity, Delta Airlines, and

when I started my marketing consultancy business, I had this feeling that I

had to take all of these classes to become a small business and understand

how to market my services differently I realized pretty quickly that that was a

waste of time and money, that I needed to lean in to what really worked for

me, and that was having conversations with qualified people to solve problems.

So I've replicated that same approach in my travel agency side.

How I started my business is this simple: I sent a text to seven people

that traveled most in my network and said, "Hey, you already know and ask

me for travel advice all the time.

I'm now doing this new job.

Here's what I'd like from you.

Anytime you're taking a trip, text me, call me, email me.

I'll give you a second opinion.

If you like what I can offer and the benefits and the

price point, book with me.

If you don't, continue as is." Mm-hmm.

That is what grew my business.

It was that intentional, that specific, and that easy.

Mm-hmm.

So I think that it doesn't need to require a huge campaign, a mighty

email list, or paid advertising.

You simply need to get to the right people with a simple ask.

Yeah.

And I think I love that you pointed that out because I think an objection that

we get a lot of times is, "I don't want to ask my friends and family," right?

"I, I don't want them to feel like they need to give me business." And I always

remind advisors that they want to, right?

But the way you do it specifically, I love that you, you tell them what

you're doing and offer to them, but no pressure, as in, "You like what

I send you, great. You don't, go do it on your own." And so it kind of

almost takes the pressure off of you.

It takes the pressure off of them, um, in that regard because that

is an objection that we get quite often is, "I don't want to have to

reach out to my friends and family."

And I do always remind people, friends and family want to help

support your business, just like you would do the same for them, right?

Yeah.

But sometimes it feels odd, right, to ask.

I think there's a real flip.

It's a small nuance, but it's important.

Yes.

Yeah.

Asking for business is very different than giving travel ideas,

tips, techniques, wins- Mm-hmm

hotel recommendations.

Yeah.

So I always tell everyone, start from the place of giving value.

And it's as simple as that.

If you show up at a baseball game or a cocktail party and y- somebody tells you

that they're going to Paros this summer, and you say, "Oh my gosh, here's the

three restaurants I love, and I really love this hotel but didn't love this

one," they will usually follow up with the next question of, "How do you know?

Are you Greek?" Like, "Are you a tr- " And I say, "Oh, I'm a travel advisor.

I book Greek all the- Greece all the time." Then stop.

Let them invite the conversation, um, invite you in for more.

And that's a way where it doesn't feel like you're being a scary salesperson.

You're just showing up and demonstrating the knowledge that

you already have, and that's the way I've always approached sales and

marketing, um, in any of my businesses.

Oh, I think that that's wonderful.

Everyone listening, take note because I know sometimes it can, you know, that

it can feel scary even, you know, like myself, I do some consulting and, you

know, I know a lot of people in the industry, so to ask them, you know, feels

initially felt odd, and then I realized, no, they actually really could use my

advice, and then they've started coming to me because of, you know, what I know

that can help support their businesses.

So I, I think that that is spot on exactly what our audience needed to hear.

So thank you.

have you tried anything that hasn't worked from a sales or marketing perspective?

I feel like I've learned a lot of those lessons on paid ads- Yeah … and

really structured content creation schemes in my first business.

So I haven't replicated a lot of that in my second one.

What I have found to be the best kind of soft lead generator that

I've used- Mm … in these two companies would be to listen and hear.

And I know Shaina told me five months ago that she's really interested in

going to Japan, specifically around the power of the ramen noodle.

I'm making up this, this scenario.

But-

I love Japan and I love ramen noodles- Right?

… so please

continue.

Continue,

right?

Yeah.

So any time I come across a really strong recommendation about an amazing

new chef or ramen restaurant in Tokyo, I would send Shaina a text being like,

"Thought of you. Here's an idea."

I used to do that in my marketing company.

I would send people pieces of press.

I would mail a book that I thought coincided with a business cha-

challenge that they're having.

It keeps you top of mind, but it keeps you top of mind from a place of

providing value, of being thoughtful, of remembering what matters, and

I think that is the most effective marketing technique you could have.

You're showing someone that you are relevant to their life and their needs.

Mm-hmm.

And whether or not they convert, I don't even count.

I just do those things naturally now, and I think that's been one

of the ways that I ha- have grown my business without having to spend

money on- Yeah … paying for leads.

Yeah.

I, it's the thoughtfulness for me- Mm … that always resonates.

like I'm, I'm going on a big trip to Europe.

I have friends getting married in Sweden, and one of my ex-colleagues

happened to just be there.

And so I said, "Hey, anywhere that I should go while I'm in Stockholm?"

I, I've been there, but I was in my early 20s, so many moons ago.

You know, so I- Different time … you know, different time, different

budget, that we're working with here.

And he gave me a list.

and it was just, and he gave, he sent me the list right away, and

he works in the industry, and he knows any time he comes to me, needs

anything, I'm there in a heartbeat.

So the, in a different, it's in a different way, but kind of, kind

of parallel to what you're saying is that, you know, he provided me,

he was so, so thoughtful in what he provided me, that anything I can

do to help him, the same way, so.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

yeah.

so speaking about sales, so I mean, I, your agency is still quite young.

We're still kind of in the first three years, which is exciting with

how well everything has been going.

how have your sales grown as your agency has matured?

Have you had to switch gears at all, or do you feel like it's been

kinda smooth sailing with what you set out to do from the beginning?

It's been smooth sailing.

I had, explosive growth between year one and year two.

Mm.

And then I had two years that were basically flat and even.

Mm-hmm.

Like, around that, you know, half a million dollar level of business.

Mm-hmm.

Keep in mind though, I was also still running and I still own my marketing

consultancy, so I was juggling both, and I feel like I really needed

to get my feet wet to understand what was the right volume of travel

clients to take on before you break.

last year I had one month in the spring where I had, like, 30 trips in the

same month, and I realized that was, like, too much for me to do- Mm … as

a sole proprietor with another income stream happening simultaneously.

So as I've grown my business this year, I think you begin to see what

are good fits and what are maybe trips that are not going to be as perfectly

aligned with your, I don't know, your understanding of the market and your

ability to deliver a solid experience.

Mm-hmm.

I have traveled to almost 50 countries myself, so I am well traveled in that

it's not hard for me to plan most trips.

There's probably been two or three locations that I've been asked for

that I haven't actually been to.

So in that way, I feel like it's easier for me to do it, but now I have to get

a little bit more picky about the trips that I agree to and the timing, and I

think that's important for all of us to do when we own our own businesses.

You can't be on 24/7.

So this year I'm actually piloting something this summer where I'm going

to Japan with my teenagers for a couple of weeks, and I'm not gonna take trips

two weeks pri- prior or two weeks after.

So I'm basically gonna take a month off of new inquiries, and I'm gonna

see how that works in the summer season because I need some time to, to manage

the trips that are in motion and not constantly add to your to-do list.

So I think that's the difference with travel agencies and us- Yeah … and

other job descriptions, right?

I know.

It's a never ending list of to-dos.

Yeah.

I think we're gonna have to bring you back to find out how that all went,

and also hear about your Japan trip.

If you need any suggestions, that is one of my favorite countries in the world.

just let me know because oh, I love Japan.

okay, so, before… I've got two very quick questions for you, and then we're

really gonna get into the meat of today- Yeah … which I'm so excited about.

have you found any secret sauce when it comes to closing a sale?

I think turnaround time is important in setting expectations for clients.

I think you also have to really listen to the budget piece, and a lot of times

people can't tell you what that budget is.

I find that all the time.

So I usually use the methodology that is, "You may not know what your budget

is, but you know what your budget isn't." Most people are much more clear about what

they do not want- versus what they do.

So I say, "Okay, so if I send you a quote for $20,000 H- or

do you have a stomach ache?

And usually if they can't give me a budget, I can push for details on

what a level is that's too high so I know where they need to come in.

Yeah.

And that's helpful, right?

Mm-hmm.

' Cause you need to set expectations.

I had a client come to me a few weeks ago about a summer trip for a family

of five to Yellowstone in Montana.

Mm. It's April.

They wanna go in two and a half months.

And instead of saying no immediately, I called her back and I said, "Listen,

do you have airfare?" "No." "Okay," I said, "quick look, those date ranges,

it's gonna be 4,500 for airfare."

And she immediately was able to say, "Well, I didn't wanna spend more

than, you know, $8,000." And I said, "Okay, so the car rental is another

12." And immediately we knew it wasn't going to be a workable trip.

Mm. But it saved her time, it saved me time.

I didn't have to say no or have an awkward conversation.

I just said, "This is the market reality of these really popular

national parks midsummer."

Mm. Like Fourth of July week, you have to be on this nine

months prior, not two months.

And she was appreciative, right?

Mm. And I think that's a way that you turn what could be a potential negative

interaction into something positive.

She had no idea, and then we went through a lot of options that

could work until she picked one.

Yeah.

No.

I think that's wonderful.

It's a way… I think it's such a way to find out the budget without just blatantly

saying, "So what is your budget?"

Mm-hmm.

but it's also showing her what you have to offer in terms of, "Okay,

well, taking a look, right now flights are looking to be about this much.

What do you think?" I think it, it's such a way to settle in to discussing

the budget without blatantly asking, and kinda showing respect both ways.

So I like that.

I like that tactic a lot.

do you, final sales question, do you find any, or do you do any special

touches for clients during the sales process or when they come home?

I mean, you did mention one earlier, which is just about, you know, "Oh,

you love ramen in Japan? Great, I just saw this new ramen place. Let me send

it to you," which personally I think is an incredibly thoughtful touch.

but is there anything… Is that, is that kind of what you do, or is

there anything else you do, little special touches for the clients?

I don't have a real systemic program of this is exactly what I offer,

but I try to surprise and delight.

Sometimes I'll book a photographer.

I've done that on safaris so that they are on the game drive

with the clients taking pictures.

I will sometimes send an amenity to the room.

I will ensure that there is a birthday or an anniversary, something, within

the hotel experience if they're going.

If they have little kids, I like to make sure something exciting happens.

I just had clients at, the Four Seasons on Lanai with a seven-year-old, and they were

able to spell out his name in bath chalk by the tub and give him a mini stuffy.

And I mean, that little detail, he was so excited that that happened.

Mm-hmm.

And I think those are the little things that people remember, right?

the mom even went so far as resetting the name every day in the room because

he wanted to see it when he woke up.

So it was very cute.

So little things like that can go a big and long way.

I think for me, the key what you're saying here is that it's,

it doesn't have to be complicated.

No.

Right?

Something- No … something so simple.

In all honesty, from all of my travels around the world, it's actually the

simplest things that are the special things that I remember and what I've taken

away from these destinations or where I've stayed or what I've experienced there.

So I love that.

Just keep it simple.

I have one client who's a major Diet Coke lover.

Yes.

And I, I- You know, I've also

got a friend over here that's a major Diet Coke lover.

It's why I don't keep any in the house.

Okay.

So she's, she's big.

So if, if I know it's a property that is a Pepsi property-

Yeah

… I will sometimes have it couriered to be waiting.

Oh, get out.

So I think it's little things like that that can make a huge difference, right?

Yeah.

You feel seen and heard and valued.

Mm-hmm.

And that's not an expensive undertaking.

You're talking about 10, $15 max.

But that matters.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

I love that.

well we're gonna move, into, our questions more specific to accessible travel,

which I'm really looking forward to.

Thank you for, I think, for everyone here, myself included, to understand

your business model and how you work with clients is incredibly helpful,

and I cannot wait for kinda the second half of, of our podcast together.

We'll be back in a moment after a quick word from our sponsor

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I'd love to start with, if you could take us back to the moment where

travel shifted for you, or something shifted for you that made you really

wanna focus on accessible travel.

Yeah.

So I've known that I've had a progressive muscular dis- order my

whole existence, since I was 19.

And it was always my lifetime goal to beat it.

I really thought I would be the first person who wouldn't see this implication

of living life in a wheelchair with the type of muscular dystrophy that I have.

And I spent decades doing everything possible to avoid that outcome.

And the unfortunate reality of that was 2020, I'm homeschooling two

elementary school kids, working really hard on my own business.

I was baking brownies, doing a Zoom call, had ch- two kids at

home, and I tripped on an area rug.

I went down, I flipped my ankles.

I broke one ankle, one foot, and tore my MCL.

Oi.

And that was literally it.

I mean, in that moment, I had to face that not only was I gonna be non-weight-bearing

for a while, we were stuck in the house, and after that it really wasn't safe.

I didn't feel safe to walk independently anywhere by myself.

I was terrified of falling.

Yeah.

I had atrophied more quickly because of being off my feet and confined

to such a small space for so long.

And it really became that moment of time of- Continuing to feel proud

and limping around with a state of internal panic in every moment.

Like, it got so bad that I didn't even want to go get a glass of

water 'cause it was so hard.

Oh, wow.

And I think I had to realize, like, this… It took a while.

It took over a year to really get comfortable and release the fight

with insurance, with the medical establishment, with fighting to get a

wheelchair, and say, "I have to stop being at war with my body. I cannot do

this for another minute." And for me, the barrier of getting over that was

really trying to find ways to have fun and feel free in the body I was now in,

and that started with adaptive skiing.

That was the gateway drug to everything that was better.

Wow.

It was zipping down the hill in New Hampshire and feeling like, "Oh, my

God, I feel like I'm 22 again." And from that place, I started venturing out in

a wheelchair on trips, and I realized it was possible, and it wasn't as

terrifying as I had made out in my mind.

Mm-hmm.

And the more I traveled and the more I pushed the limits of zip-lining or

scuba diving or even ending up doing the Camino de Santiago in my wheelchair, I

was like, wow, those feelings of being limited, of being unfree, of being

boring, all the things I feared most about the wheelchair were untrue, and the

wheelchair itself was actually the device that was making it all possible again.

And as I was doing that, I started to realize that people in my sphere, clients,

friends, neighbors, were saying things like, "How did you do that?" Like, "How?

H- I wanna take Grandma," or, "I wanna go with my sister," or, "I

wanna take my cousin, and we never thought it was possible." So it was

a shift, a huge shift in mindset-

Mm-hmm

where I had to stop fighting myself, my body, my existence.

I had to accept where I was, and then I had to lose that identity that

this chair meant something negative.

Wow.

Wow.

I don't even know how to follow that up with a question.

th- that was, what, what a beautiful story and revelation and, just, just wow.

Thank you for that.

so now that the thing is now that you do, you know, you do travel, like I've

actually looked at doing the Camino myself and even to be honest, even as

somebody who could walk the whole, like I say the whole thing, I was … I'm

looking at the last 106 kilometers of it.

That's

no good, yeah.

Right?

I

didn't do the whole, the whole thing, but 106, yeah.

It's a long trek.

It's a long trek.

that already is something that in my mind I'm like, "Okay, wow, can I, you know,

seven days or six days, however long of walking multiple kilometers every day?"

It's something that's gone through my mind as somebody who would walk the trail.

what are you, now that you're traveling, you have travelers with accessibility

needs, what are some common misconceptions that you wanna share with other

advisors about accessible travel?

I think the thing that pains my heart so much is when people

think they're so limited.

Yeah.

I speak so often to family members or to even people that are newly diagnosed

with a condition, whether it's ALS or MS, or they've had an, an incident, an

accident so they're a new paraplegic or quadriplegic or a parent of one.

And I hear the number one question they ask me as a traveler is, "Where can I go?"

Mm-hmm.

And that is already so defeatist and so sad that they're not being able to

start from, "Well, where do you wanna go?

What kind of vibe?

Are you a city person?

Do you like nature, beach, lake?

What, what would make you excited?"

Mm. So I always try to reframe the conversation from that place

of, there is literally possibility in almost every destination.

You just have to be patient and a little bit more process-oriented

to figure out how to match that destination with your needs.

So I like to start from that place of empowerment, of like, "We

can go many, many, many places.

So let's first talk about what it is you like before we limit

the scope of possibility."

Oh, I love that.

I love that.

Um, do you find with advisors, do they… Is there anything that

they overlook when planning trips?

You kind of led into that a little bit, but do they overlook anything

when planning trips or looking at potential itineraries for

clients with accessibility needs?

I think advisors and suppliers make the same mistake, and that same mistake is

showing up with nervousness that you are going to have to be an expert to tell

the client what they can and can't do.

Mm-hmm.

That is not your job as a hotel, that is not your job as a DMC, and

that is not your job as an advisor.

Your job in those cases is to be curious enough to seek the information

from the expert, who is the person who is traveling with the difference,

to find out what they need as support mechanisms to be successful in this

adventure or this trip or this- Vacation.

Um, that's all that needs to happen.

So you are getting that information out of the other person and then matching

those requirements with the right setting.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And that's the place.

It's leaning in.

It's being curious.

It's not being so nervous that asking these questions are gonna be insulting.

Like, I'm clearly sitting in a wheelchair.

I, I'm aware, you're aware.

You can ask me what that needs to look like.

Am I gonna stay seated in the wheelchair at dinner, or do I want a chair?

It's a very valid question.

You don't have to be nervous to ask it.

Yeah.

I think also, you know, a lot of times you may not see your client and

you're talking on the phone with them.

To ask them the questions, for me personally, I would feel like, "Okay,

great, like they're really getting to understand me and know me."

So that's gonna make for a better experience for me, whatever

it is that I share with them.

Because also, some accessibility needs you can't see when you're looking at somebody.

Mm-hmm.

So to ask them, I think is incred- and there's a sign, that's a sign

of respect is just, you know, let me know because then they, they

are gonna feel more comfortable, you know more about them, right?

I, I'm all about asking the questions, so and not to shy away from it.

You can f- visibly or you can feel the difference, right?

you always know when someone is leaning in and acting from a place of

kindness and compassion and openness.

And when somebody is asking from a place of nervousness,

you can almost feel that wall.

And so I tell all of our advisors when we're talking within Fora about how to

access this population is just to say, you, you want to make the other person

feel comfortable with having needs.

And you do that by saying, "I understand, Shana.

You have 25 food allergies.

I hear you.

Why don't you give them all to me, and we'll find a way

to make this work together?"

Yep.

So-

Absolutely

… by simply taking that burden away from the person, it makes the one

who has these extra challenges relax.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up.

I have, um, a past colleague who has a gluten allergy, a soy allergy,

and has like something like that.

Really takes a lot of things off of the menu for her.

And when she told me, and she kept apologizing to me for it, and I said,

"No, no." I said, "This is great that I know that because there's lots

of places that we can go and eat.

I wanna make sure that there's things on the menu for you and for everyone

else." And it's the way that like I found for me too that I framed the

response to her too as, "No, no.

This is great.

Like, I'm really glad that I know because now, like there's so many

fantastic restaurants," 'cause food was what we were focusing on where

we were going. And I was like, "No.

Now I know, and this is gonna be great," right?

So it's, you know, it's how you frame it back to them too and then that

continues to build that trust, which I think is incredibly important.

It is.

Yeah.

'Cause nobody wants to feel like a burden.

Yes.

And especially when you're in a commercial relationship where you're

supposed to be, as the advisor, the advocate for the client.

Yep.

You don't want that client to feel like asking for these things is a problem.

It's the same preference as your corporate guy who tells you, "I only

will go to a hotel with a gym," or, "I need to be able to get breakfast by

5:00 AM," or, "I have to have the Wall Street Journal everyday print edition."

Yeah.

It's just a requirement.

And as agents, that's what we're here for.

We're here to match the right property with the set of requirements.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

how has your personal experiences, I mean, you talked about the

Camino, you talked about skiing, you know, different experiences.

How has that shaped the way you plan trips for your clients today?

I think it's first the personal, and then it's how it's impacted my business.

I think this was always … Living life in a wheelchair was the

thing I was most terrified about.

Mm-hmm.

I thought that I would be viewed differently.

I thought that I would possibly not be able to be as successful because people

would judge me in different ways, or I wouldn't be accepted in every room.

And I think by forcibly throwing myself around the world, and now making this a

leading part of my career, living life in the wheelchair, the thing that I was most

terrified of, it's been a great way to come to terms with the difference faster.

Mm. This has been way more effective than years of therapy or any

other, thing I could have done to be like, "Okay, this is me."

I don't even think that I'm the only person.

When I roll into a room, I'm the only person seated in most audiences.

There could be 2,000 people, I'm the only person in a wheelchair.

And now it doesn't even enter into my realm of being

nervous or feeling different.

Yep.

I think when I c- when it comes to clients, they feel that difference.

They feel my confidence- Mm … in that I travel across the world,

across the country by myself.

I'm in New York right now.

I took the train alone.

I'm very comfortable now getting around in my chair.

If I hadn't pushed myself out of my comfort zone beyond PT and OT

and into the real life environment and had to figure out things like,

what do I do if the bed's too high?

Or what happens if I get stuck in my hotel room?

This actually happened to me two nights ago.

I was in a hotel room, it was not fully accessible 'cause it was a last minute

booking, and I was trying to scoot my w- my open suitcase out of the way by

pushing my power chair into it, and it got wedged in between the wheels of my chair.

So picture this.

I'm sitting in this tiny little wheelchair and there's a suitcase

down the middle, and I can't move.

It's jammed.

I, I try and I try, and it's not, it's not working.

Mm. So at this point, I'm so confident, because this has happened so many

times, I just call the front desk.

I go, "Hey, I'm totally, fully clothed, but I'm gonna need someone to open

the door with the master key, come into my room and get me unstuck."

And they always hesitate for a minute, and they're like,

"Wait, what?" You explain again.

They're like, "Oh, okay. We'll send something, somebody up." Now, when

they open the door, they're always a little bit worried about what

they're gonna see on the other side, but the maintenance guy looked.

He's like, "Whoa, you are good stuck."

And I'm like, "Sure am." He just pulled it out, laughed.

He was like, "That's it?" I'm like, "That's it." And we went about our day.

People want to help you.

Yeah.

But sometimes it just takes them a minute to process a request that isn't as common.

Like I'm stuck on my wheelchair over my suitcase, which sounds

quite bizarre, but it did happen.

Yeah.

Oh, I love it.

Honestly, that was probably the highlight of his day, if not his week.

For sure, 100%.

Yeah.

yeah.

Getting, um, getting more to the suppliers, we talked

a lot about, like, hotels.

and do you find… How do you vet different suppliers, so, like

hotels, destinations, to make sure that they're truly accessible and

not just saying that they are?

I think it's really, again, that perfect match to the client.

Mm-hmm.

So for me, I can make a lot of things work.

If I needed to have a lift that would go under the bed and pick me up, it's

called a Hoyer lift, and put me onto the, onto the bed, then I would need…

A platform bed doesn't work very well.

So it's very personal to the client that you are supporting.

Mm-hmm.

And I think the challenge, right, for us as advisors is a lot of this

information isn't listed online.

We keep a very detailed database at Fora of all the properties that we've

vetted for food allergies or mold remediation or, you know, accessible

rooms for wheelchairs or walkers.

Mm-hmm.

But it also requires having relationships with suppliers, because you always

uncover more information when you can get somebody on the phone.

And I think it's important to really listen to the person on the other end

of the phone at the hotel or at the transfer company to hear if they're

really hearing you, because sometimes you'll get kinda that lip service, but

you know that they're not listening to how important this could be.

It's very different than having a preference on pillow firmness.

If I match a client to an incorrect hotel room, they may

not be able to use the bathroom.

That's a big deal.

Yep.

That's dangerous, right?

Mm-hmm.

And it's possibly a complete trip ruiner.

So we have to be more dedicated and more willing to push,

and know why you're doing it.

And when you get that inevitable, sometimes someone's not really paying

attention or pushing back a little bit, you just have to explain, "Okay,

if Shayna's coming to this hotel and her lift doesn't fit under the bed,

she's not gonna be able to get out of her wheelchair for the whole week.

So we really need to sort this out now so that you don't have a crisis

when she arrives and my client doesn't have somewhere to stay." Mm-hmm.

So usually when you give it a little more context, people start to lean in

a little bit more and do the questions.

I've ha- I've had hotel managers take apart bed frames to see

if we can make something work.

I've had people film bathrooms with great detail using their

hand for scale or, you know, their size for scale to really- Mm-hmm

… help

them understand, you know, what, what could happen.

yeah.

So I think it's important to push, ask those questions.

That's what they're there for.

They also, I think everyone should remember too that I think a lot of these

properties, especially, like, with hotels and things like that- That I think they're

aware that they may get asked these things again, or even if they're not asked, it

becomes, it becomes valuable information that they can share in the future.

So I, I think that that's wonderful.

and I know you've shared, so I love some of these, kind of these stories

of like some, like things that have, that you've done with your clients.

Can you share like a client story that has really stuck with you over the years?

Yeah, there's so many.

Yes.

there are just so many great stories.

But one of the two really wonderful stories that have come up recently

is- Mm-hmm I had a client who hadn't traveled in 15 years, and he'd always

wanted to take his wife to Italy.

Yeah.

he'd had a heart transplant, and just international travel felt like something

they weren't gonna be able to do.

Mm-hmm.

He uses a power chair, and like I mentioned before, he uses a lift to

get him out of the chair and into a bed or, you know, into the bathroom.

And we finally decided the best way for them to get to Italy was to go on a

cruise ship in a more luxurious section.

for us that was Norwegian Cruise Lines and The Haven.

That enabled a few things.

It gave his wife a break in the morning, 'cause it takes some

time to help him get ready.

She could have her coffee, snack on her omelet while they're both getting ready

in the room with their adult daughter.

The other thing that's really important when you're planning a trip for

somebody in a power chair is that you're not transferring into tenders.

Little boats, four or 500 pound chairs do not work well.

Mm-hmm.

So you have to pick an itinerary that all has docks where

you can just roll right off.

So we had planned all of that out.

We had private drivers.

We had done discrete types of excursions so that they could really see what they

wanted and not maximize their time.

Mm-hmm.

So the day they arrived on the ship in Barcelona, I get a call from the room,

day one, I mean, we have not even like left the port- Yeah … and the lift that

has been delivered to the room is broken.

So everybody's almost in tears thinking they're gonna have to fly home.

Now, this is where the power of having a travel advisor really comes to play

because these cruise ships pay attention to these bookings when they're by the

preferred partners and when they're in a, you know, a VIP part of the ship.

So the engineering team on this Norwegian ship spent three hours in

this room fixing this lift to make it operational enough for this family.

And then myself and two partners in… Well, one in Spain, but she

has contacts in Italy, spent the next two days ensuring that we got a new

replacement in the next available port.

'Cause it was workable, but it wasn't gonna be workable for 10 days.

Mm-hmm.

and that is… You know, I get so emotionally invested in the happiness of

my clients, which I'm sure you do, too, but these situations hit even more close

to the chest because it's a difference in- It's not about the trip just being

good, it's about is this even serviceable?

Like, do we have to get on a plane home if this is, if I have to sleep

upright in my wheelchair for a week?

Like, that wouldn't be a positive experience.

And we were.

We were able to get a brand-new, um, lift purchased in Italy and delivered

to their stateroom while they were out on an excursion in a winery.

And that I was forever grateful.

Again, I don't wanna ever live that again because it was terrifying and I was really

nervous, and I was ready to write a check myself and buy a new lift if I needed to.

but we, we solved it, and you can with the power of a really great deep

bench of contacts and connections.

Wow.

Wow, how incredible.

I think that really does drive home these supplier relationships that you

have, especially the ones that the hosts have as, like your host Fora has

with, you know, different suppliers, and how they really do support the

clients as well, and they're there to support you as their advisor.

Right.

So I absolutely love that.

Do you have, do you have any additional kind of go-to resources, communities or

partners that you would recommend with

regards to- Yeah.

I mean, we love Wheel the World.

They do the best job in mapping rooms, globally, and we're working

on hopefully getting more of their data into our Fora booking tool.

I love Disabled Accessible Travel in Barcelona.

I think Miriam and her team are the number one for booking private

tours and excursions in Europe for people that have mobility needs.

She knows how to source all the right transfer vehicles and how to have

guides that not only know the local environment, but know the step-free path.

Because I think oftentimes you can book, "Oh, we need an accessible tour," but

then you're faced with a tour guide who's, like, never done it that way

before, and they may be pulling you up to places that are just not accessible.

Miriam's guides always know where the bathrooms are, what restaurants

are step-free, where you can stop and get a coffee that's going to

be easy to access, and I think that's an invaluable asset, right?

It's just really important that you don't have to be advocating for yourself in

a private experience at every moment.

Yeah, absolutely.

And we'll share the links as well, for everybody for Wheel the World and Disabled

Accessible Travel, so do not worry.

You do not have to go find them yourselves.

We'll have that available to everybody.

where do you see accessible travel heading in the next few years?

I think if you don't feel like this is part of your business,

you're not looking hard enough.

We all know that boomers are aging, and we are going to see,

you know, 30-plus percent of the population being 65-plus by 2030.

They hold 50% of the wealth.

50. If you're not seeing a rise in multi-gen vacations, you will be.

So I think this is a market readiness moment where the elders among us who

are booking trips and oftentimes paying for them, for multiple people… I know

for myself, in my book of business, I've seen a 200-plus percent lift this

year, and it's driven by this segment.

Yeah.

So I think we have to be ready to know that when multi-generational trips

are happening, we're often seeing many accommodations on one itinerary.

You're seeing a mobility need from the older generation.

You're definitely seeing a food allergy somewhere amongst the group.

And oftentimes you're seeing, a neurological difference or an autism

diagnosis or somebody that just needs a slower pace, a less frenetic

environment, or a quieter experience.

And I think that is the future of travel.

For people that want to have a personal touch and continue to work with advisors

who aren't gonna rely on digital tools or ChatGPT, they're gonna expect that

you can help steward them through those more complicated experiences.

Yeah.

So I think it is a core part of all of our businesses.

I agree.

Yeah, absolutely.

if there is one thing that you wish every advisor really understood about

accessible travel, what would that be?

I wish everybody understood that even though it might require more work, there

is the potential for greater beauty.

Simply because people thinking that they can't do something, and you

turning that around and showing them what's possible has such a longer

leg and a deeper impact than simply, "I had a great trip to Disney."

It's the moments of that family who took that first trip to Disney with

a child who was severely disabled and realized that they could travel again.

Or it's grandma, I'm sending one next week, she's 90 years old.

She's never left the country, and she's going to the Vatican for the first

time because that is her deepest wish.

Oh.

And it's the families who have a food allergy, whether it's a peanut or a full

nut or a dairy allergy- Mm-hmm … who have never felt comfortable not

being in a rental home, and giving mom and dad a break and allowing

them to dine out for the first time.

So yeah, these trips take more planning, the stakes are higher, but they become

raving fans, and the impact that you deliver, I think, is way more You

just feel way, more empowered and more satisfied with what you've been able to

do than the family that drops 100 grand every year to stay somewhere bougie.

Yeah.

Those are the trips that I remember, and they're the stories of the calls that

make me choked up when they come home.

And I think that's the opportunity that we have.

Yeah.

Give people the opportunity to see the world and their lives could change.

Yeah, absolutely.

What a wonderful way that, I… Yeah, I absolutely love it.

And for everyone here listening too, you wanna hear more, you wanna understand

more about accessible travel, you wanna understand more about Karen and, you

know, what she's been doing in the space, we've got a few links to, some articles

and other podcasts that she's been on.

We're gonna make sure that those are linked for you as well.

So please continue to listen, continue to learn about this space.

I, I think it's so incredibly important.

but also really a core piece of the travel experience, and the client experience too.

So that's wonderful.

We're gonna, we're gonna end off with a little bit, if you

could share some wisdom with us.

Not that you haven't shared about 59 minutes of wisdom with us already.

so I'm just asking for more.

what are some of your favorite places in general to learn in this industry?

Is it conferences, masterminds, social groups?

Kind of where, where do you go to first?

Yeah.

I mean, I always find supplier events to be really helpful

to get a deep dive on- Mm-hmm

an actual place.

I find that I learn a lot from my own personal travel.

Mm-hmm.

And I think you can learn a lot from other agents, whether they're

in your organization or others.

I oftentimes when I'm sitting at a supplier lunch or dinner like to ask

around the table, like, "What's a hidden gem or someplace that you feel

like people don't know enough about?"

Mm-hmm.

And most agents will readily share that information, and

I think that's im- important.

And I also like reading travel publications.

It's something I've done my whole life, and I get a lot of gems from Substacks and

from print media just to see what trends are and what reviews are looking like.

Yeah.

I think it's one of my favorite things about this community of travel advisors.

Like you said, whether within your host, outside of your host if you're not a

member of one- How much everybody wants to share their knowledge within the community

of travel advisors, I think it's one of the things that has kept me working in

this industry for 15 plus years, is just, you know, even the way I watch suppliers

share information with each other, others locally, like in a destination.

It, it's a beautiful thing about this industry that I don't think we talk

enough about, is how much we really do support each other, even if you're,

quote unquote, "competitors." so- And I

think we don't always ask our clients.

I have a client that's- Mm … on her way back from the Azores right now.

I'm planning the trip.

And she said to me, "I have a list of the restaurants I love the most for you."

Amazing.

I love that.

And so that's a great question, right?

Ask your clients, "What was the hidden gem that you think I should share?" I mean,

we can't be an experts in everything, and sometimes it's those places you

stumble into that are always the best.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

is there any advice you have for newbies, or new advisors coming into the industry?

I think with most things it's easy to feel that if you're

not perfect, you're not enough.

And I think with anything, it's really about the way that you approach your job.

People don't expect you to know everything, but if you're curious

and you're dedicated to seeking the information and providing good service,

you can be an incredible at your job.

So I think it's just that idea of how do you lean in more?

How do you deliver more value?

And how do you show up in a way that you would want a travel agent to do for you?

Yeah.

I think one of the biggest, one of the best things that I was… And I,

I don't even remember who had given me this advice, but, was if I don't know

the answer just to say, "You know what?

I'm not sure.

Great question.

Let me go take a look." Absolutely.

And people- Exactly … think that that's a sign of weakness, and I find it

personally a sign of strength because- Mm-hmm … it's building my trust with

the client or whoever I'm speaking to, whatever the situation may be.

But with a client, it builds that trust.

Like, "Okay, she doesn't know, but she's gonna go find out for me.

So she's not effectively telling me something just to answer the question

to feel like she's perfect or that she knows the answers, but rather she's

being honest with me." so that was a piece of advice I was always given, and

I think that that kind of sits well with what you just kind of expressed, so.

And we can find information so quickly right now.

That too.

I

mean, I had a client last night ask about how late Pompeii

was opened for a 3:30 flight.

I'm like- Yes … "Well, it's open till 7:00." And she was asking about

the pros and cons of a tour guide.

Within three seconds I was able to say, you know… I was like, "I think

they have audio guides," but I'm…

You know, sometimes you struggle to remember when you were there.

I'm like, "Did they, did I use an audio guide?

Did I not?

I can't remember." And I mean, with, with AI tools or Google right now,

it was like two seconds later I said, "Guide might be this much, but they

have audio guide." She's like, "Great.

Audio guide."

I mean, quick, quick answers these days.

Yep.

Um, you just have to utilize too technology to fill in some of those gaps

when you can't remember or you don't know.

Yep.

Absolutely.

so our final question that we ask everyone who joins us on Travel Agent

What person, book or technology has been indispensable to

the growth of your agency, and why?

I think I will forever be indebted to Fora Travel and to Evan Frank,

who's one of the co-founders, who invited me in week three of becoming

a brand-new advisor to train the team.

They had heard my story, heard about my marketing background, and they believed

this was something that was underserved.

I was able to give that presentation, I think it was week six of Fora in 2023.

Wow.

And they attended and said, "I think we should build this." And

the leadership team here has been so supportive of this growth.

And I think when you've fought against a disability that has been, you

know, kind of ignored in the medical mainstream your whole life, I mean,

I fought for a wheelchair, I fought for cures, I fought for treatment.

There's never been an door that has opened for me easily.

And I feel like in a lot of my life I've had a lot of that out- external

pressure, like it's been for Karen.

Like, Karen grows through hard times and hard change, and this is the one

moment of my personal and professional career where I felt like the doors

have just been open quick- quickly.

Hmm.

I had a dream in 2023, 2024 that someday I would impact the travel industry.

And to see this happening so quickly with so much push from

a big brand has been beautiful.

I feel like they see the opportunity and they're opening the door for a lot

of us to make big change in the market.

And for that, I'm, I'm forever grateful.

Oh, that's so wonderful to hear.

It's why we ask the last question, so that I can cry at the end of the podcast.

No, that's so wonderful, and, uh, thank you, Karen.

You've built such an incredible business in such a short amount of

time, and sharing your story and perspective so openly with the HAR

community, I cannot thank you enough.

the work that you're doing to make travel more accessible and to help

advisors feel more confident in the space is so important, so thank you.

Thank

you.

I'm really glad to have this conversation today.

Me too.

I wanna thank everyone that's listening today.

please remember to submit reviews if you are a member of a host agency, or using

a piece of travel technology, working with a tour operator or travel insurance

provider now live within the HAR website.

Your insights truly help other advisors make informed decisions.

A huge thank you to IMG Global Travel Insurance, our sponsor this quarter, and

for supporting this episode with Karen.

And a reminder that the Travel Agent Chatter podcast is a quarterly series

where we feature and learn from your travel advisor peers, so stay tuned for

our next episode that will come up in Q3.

You can go read the transcript, view the trip notes, or watch the video

of today's episode all in one place.

Head over to hostagencyreviews.com/tac and click on episode 36.

Karen, an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for being here, and we will absolutely have you back soon.

Perfect.

Thanks, Shana.

Thanks, everybody.

Bye-bye.