Are your sales hitting an invisible ceiling? Pat Miller welcomes boudoir photographer and business coach Lori Unruh Poole to reveal why ditching the classic “bronze, silver, gold” packages might be the secret to unstoppable growth.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(4:21) - Why Top Packages Limit Your Growth

(16:27) - Giving Each Product a Purpose

(28:58) - Common Mistakes When Going Package-Free

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

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Connect with Lori Unruh Poole ⬇

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I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer podcast. How do you sell something? You get a client, you sit them down. How do you sell? I would bet that you show them the package. We have bronze, silver, and gold. Wouldn't you like one of my packages? Because that's where people start, or that's what works, or that's what you were trained to do. But what if there was a world without packages? And what if that world was filled with happy clients that got exactly what they want and more money in your pocket? You have my attention. On today's show, we're talking with Lori Unruh Poole, and we're going to talk about selling your photography without using packages. Now, she's going to quickly show us that does not mean throwing a catalog at them and wishing them the best. She has a method to the madness, but that method is gonna get clients what they want, and it's going to remove the ceiling of opportunity that your gold package presents. This is a different way to think about selling, and it works for her, and it's working for the people that she coaches. You need to hear it. Lori's back with us next. Lori, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?

I am excited. We get to talk today about something that some photographers can't get their head around: Selling without packages. But before we get to that, if someone hasn't met you yet and they don't know what you do, tell us who you are and what you do.

Okay. Well, my name is Lori Unruh Poole. I am a boudoir photographer in Wilmington, North Carolina, and myself and my husband Jeff, we also mentor other photographers and coach them on how to run a better business, including things like what we're talking about today. So that can all be found at myphotoinsight.com.

This is kind of a provocative topic. Stepping away from sales packages, and packages seem to be the default in the industry. Why are packages the default? Why is everyone doing seemingly the same thing?

Because they work. Yeah. So even when I'm working with a photographer that is maybe newer to figuring out their pricing, I will actually encourage them to go with packages until they get more established and decide that maybe they want to try something different. But packages work because they provide a floor, meaning like that your lowest package, that's the lowest amount of sales that you're going to get. They provide a structure that is easy for your client to understand. And making it easy is something that's really Important. We want our clients to be able to make decisions and not get paralyzed. And they also allow you as the business owner to forecast your income. Because generally if you have three packages, you're going to sell the middle one the most often. So you can kind of predict your averages and start to build a marketing plan that way. So packages work, and especially if they're done correctly, they work really well.

I can see how that's a ready-made way to understand what the business might look like. If I have a studio and I get a client, then I will get this many dollars, and then I can project from there. And if someone's been doing that for a while and they're really good at selling packages, what is happening in the business that might tell them, hey, it's time to leave packages behind, there's another way.

I think a lot of times it they're going to start to feel that from their clients actually. They're clients are going to start asking for substitutions or they're going to start asking for upgrades, or more often than not, they're going to start selling their top package the most often, which is really a sign that they need to be able to offer more generally. You know, like I said, if you have a variety of packages, you should be selling to the middle the most often. So if you're routinely selling at the top end of your package or you have clients that are asking for more, asking for substitutions, then it's time to start thinking about another approach.

That's interesting because I would think without putting critical thought into it, I'm really good at this, look at me, I sold the top package. Again, I wouldn't question that. That's a sign to change.

Yeah. So if you're routinely selling your top package, it means that you have some clients that would have bought more if you would have allowed them to. But the thing about packages is not only do they put a floor where you're not going to sell below that, they also tend to put a ceiling where you may not sell above that. So if you're routinely selling your top package, then it's either time to make an even bigger package so that you're giving your clients room to grow, or again, maybe start thinking about going with other ways that they can upgrade or customize outside of that package structure.

Two photographers talking to one another can say, oh, they're asking about substitutions. But clients on the whole really don't know what they're talking about, so they're not saying, "Oh, I want a metal print that's 4 inches bigger." Like what are some of the things that they're asking about that are substitution questions that maybe aren't presenting to us as a substitution question? Do you know what I mean? Like they're expressing dissatisfaction in the package, and the substitutions may not be a direct one to one kind of thing. Does anything come to mind?

Yeah. And so when a client is asking for a substitution, it really could be a variety of issues, right? Like, part of the issue could be that you haven't fully established the value of that item. So if clients are routinely asking you to take a certain item out of their package, it could be that you're not doing a good job of building that up and getting them excited about it, or it could be that they're just not excited about that particular item. And if you're having requests for that same item to be removed over and over again, that might be a sign that you need to take that out and put something else in. What I have found more often than not is as I move up into the clientele that I'm serving, higher end clientele want what they want. They don't necessarily want a pre-made package that has, you know, these three items in it. Maybe they want that item over there or that item over there, and they want to be able to just put together exactly what they want and then you give them a price. So when you get to those kinds of questions of like, what if I just got, you know, an album and two wall portraits and this other thing over there, like, what would that be? If you start getting those kind of questions, then your clients are looking for something more custom than a ready-made package. And that's a really good sign that it's time to maybe try out a non package approach.

Well, let's go back to that point for you. At some point in your life, you made the decision to leave package sales even though they work for a different future. How did you make that decision?

Honestly, I've kind of always been doing it in some way, shape or form. So I have been full-time in boudoir since 2019, but I've been a full time photographer since 2010. So before I was full time boudoir, I kind of did a little bit of everything. Right? I did babies and I did weddings and I did these different things. And the hard part for me, I think, was I felt dissatisfaction in the packages that I was building. I never felt like I came up with, for example, people say three packages or five, like, have an even and odd number so that there's a middle. I couldn't come up with three packages where I was like, these three packages are going to work for everybody. And it always felt like there was going to be something like, what if somebody doesn't want this? Or what if they want something else instead? That question was always there. In the early days, we went with packages anyway, and sure enough, we did get questions about substitutions. As I started really getting my feet underneath me and understanding business and understanding sales, I really just figured out that there were some staples that everybody wants, but they may want in different combinations. And so, again, I would try and build out packages, and I'm like, no, I think I'm gonna go this other way. So it's kind of always been there. But I think really the turning point for me was when I started doing boudoir because Jeff and I kind of had a sit down at that point, and we decided that boudoir was essentially going to be mine. Everything else that we did in the studio, we did together. So we came up with our pricing together. We traded off, took turns on who would shoot or we would shoot together, or everything else was a shared thing. Once that became mine, it kind of gave me the freedom to be like and do what I want. I can do whatever I want. And at that point, we were also stable enough with our other niches that we were serving, that if I tried something with boudoir and it flopped, I can try something else. It wasn't mission critical that I nail how these packages work right out of the gate or lack thereof. So I started with a variety of packages, and then I just started dismantling that and coming up with a different way to sell.

Did it ever become apparent to you that doing this way might lead to a higher ticket? Or was the direct motivation to step away tailoring exactly what the customer wanted out of every order, or maybe a little of both?

No, the initial goal wasn't higher sales. Especially when I was first getting into boudoir. I honestly, I didn't really know yet what people were going to want to buy because it is such a different niche than, for example, family portraits. Most people with Boudoir are not getting wallets and gift prints to give out to friends and family, for example. Yeah. It does have a little bit of a different approach to it, and that's where I was like, I'm just going to take the constraints off. I'm gonna let the horse take its own lead, so to speak, and just see what people start buying and kind of let that inform things. And then as I did that, I started noticing that when I gave people options, I took away that sense of, you've reached the top package, now you're done. There's no point at which they are done buying. And what I like to tell people is that with packages, we're all familiar with packages in some way, shape or form. And the analogy that I like to use is when you go to, you hit up the drive through. Hubby went to cookout earlier today. When you hit up the drive-thru, they give you, you know, you can buy the number 10, and the number 10 is usually some kind of sandwich, some kind of side and drink, and that completes your meal and you're done. How often at the drive-thru are you adding on a side salad or a dessert or things like that? At most, they might ask you, do you want to upgrade your drink? But we really have this sense of completion of like, no, I ordered the thing. I've gotten everything that I'm supposed to get. Whereas if you go to a restaurant where everything's a la carte, for example, like Ruth's Chris, or like one of those restaurants where even your sides are not bundled with your entree, then it's like, well, how many sides do you want? Do you want dessert? Do you want an appetizer? Should we get a bottle of wine? So there's a lot more ways that you can purchase and there's no one set path. Therefore, you have room to keep going. If you want to add on dessert, you can. If you want to add on a bottle of wine, you can. Like, you can just add whatever you want and you stop when you're satisfied.

I've never thought of it that way, that there is so much expectation on our side of the table to try and sell the artwork to the client that we would stop and think the client wants to be a good part of this social contract as well. They want to be a good client. You said, get what you're supposed to get. Like, I completed my mission. I got a package. That would be almost giving them the easy way out of this, that you're done, check the box. I had never thought of it that way. That's brilliant.

Well, thanks.

That's amazing. Okay. That's going to make somebody some money. Let's talk about—because my curiosity can't help but ask, when you're selling boudoir, what are some of the things that they're buying that maybe families or senior pictures or others aren't? Like, I'm just curious about what is the core product that you might sell to a boudoir client?

I mean, hands down, my most popular product is an album. And the way I sell it to my clients is this. Here's the thing, and I know when we talked about like, what kind of questions might come up. You talked about like, what are some mistakes people might make? How might you structure this? When you are going with a package free method, it's not no holds barred. It's not here is everything that I offer, and you can pick and choose what you want. There's still rules, and that's important. So my rules with boudoir is you are first going to choose either an album, a portrait box, or the full set of digital files. And then from there, you can start adding on. So I'm still setting a floor and that's important. I'm still setting a bare minimum of what my client has to spend in order to get in the door. They can't just walk in and get an 8 by 10, right? So they're still going to start with one of those three items, and that helps me control the sale a little bit more. To your original question of what do I sell the most often? Like I said, it's, it's the album. So what I tell people, when I'm doing a consultation with a client, and I'm explaining how the pricing works, I tell them like, you're getting your hair and makeup done. We're gonna do two different outfits on two different sets. I'm gonna get close up and far away and sitting and standing, and somewhere you're serious and somewhere you're smiling. And we're gonna have so much quantity and so much variety. You are not going to want to leave with just one photo. If I do my job, which is helping you love this version of yourself, you're going to want a lot of photos. So that's why we start you with one of these three items that help you get quantity. So an album is a great way to get quantity because I've had people do as many as like 75 images in an album, for example, and for a portrait session, I feel like that's a lot. For a wedding, it's not. But for a portrait session, that is. So, the albums help them get quantity. But it also, I think is just, it's that quintessential product that most people imagine when they imagine having a boudoir session. It's discreet because they can close up a book and put it on a shelf. Like if you were not familiar with PPA, you wouldn't know what these books are behind me. Right? So you can close up a book, put it away on your shelf and nobody knows what it is. So it has that discretion; it has customizability. You can change out the cover. We can put a design on the cover, whatever you want. So it still allows them a lot of flexibility just within one product. So that is, by and large, our most popular product that we sell. I don't know. Back to your original question, like, are there products that boudoir clients get that other people don't? I don't really think so. I think the product lineup is more limited in scope because like I said, they're not doing wallets and gift prints, so it's a little bit more limited, which actually makes something like a package free system work better because we're controlling that overwhelm by not giving them too many options.

Well, let's explore this world without packages. It sounds like you're offering them paths instead of packages. It's digital or a box or an album, and then you build the Christmas tree from there. Is that kind of how you go about it?

Yep, exactly. So what I tell them is, again, they're going to start with one of those three options, any one they want. It's kind of like a choose your own adventure story. If you remember those, where it wasn't just open ended. You didn't write the ending of the story. There were still paths you had to go down. So we're still going to start them with one of those three options, and then they can choose to add on from there or not. You know, theoretically, you could come to my studio and just get the base album and be done if you want to. That would be my smallest sale. That's my floor that I've set. But more often than not, people are going to want to add on. They're either going to upgrade their album in either image quantity or size, or they're going to add other products in as well. So I create that path for them to go down of ways that they can add on. One thing that I think is really important in how you guide them down that path is you give each of your products a purpose. So we've already talked a little bit about what the purpose of an album is. Right? It gets you quantity; it's discreet. We've kind of given it a function. Whereas digital files, on the other hand, again with boudoir, most people aren't putting them online. They're not using them to share on Facebook. Half of them can't be shared on Facebook anyway. So, what is the purpose of digital files in your client's mind? Well, for my clients, it's like, it's a scarcity mindset, I guess, of like I want to have these just to have them. I know I didn't put all of them in my album, but I still want to have all of them. So more often than not, that is the reason that my clients buy the images is just to have them. They don't do anything with them. They're not sharing them. You know, they're not going down to Walmart and you know, picking up their naked prints. So I've kind of carved that out of like this is just a luxury to have if you want them. Now some of my clients do digital only. They don't do a printed product. But more often than not, because of how I talk about the products and what each one does, I sort of give them a reason for each product. On the other hand, something like a wall portrait or, you know, a smaller display print, like an acrylic plaque or a curved metal, I call those visual affirmation. And it was actually one of my clients that gave me this idea because especially where we live, and I know a lot of people will be able to relate to this is people can't imagine having a boudoir image on display. Like people are gonna see my photos, what, you know, and they kind of freak out about that. And it was one of my clients that really gave me the best way to sell display prints and wall art is she was sitting there in the sales room and I do same-day sales. She's sitting in the sales room, and her hair and makeup is still done. You know, she just got back from lunch, and she's like, "I have to tell you, I feel incredible right now. And you know, I know I'm going to get my album, and you know, but some days it's going to stay on the shelf. I'm not going to pick it up and look at it." She said," I want a reminder of this feeling; I want it every day. I want it to be the first thing that I see when I wake up in the morning." She said, "I don't even want the chance to walk by the mirror." Because women in particular, we walk by the mirror and we start going like, "Oh, my wrinkles." And, you know, we start picking ourselves apart as soon as we see that mirror. She said, "I'm gonna see this before I even see myself. And that wall portrait is going to remind me of." And she used a few friendly swear words. But basically, the bad girl that she is, essentially. But like, just how strong and confident and beautiful that she is, she was going to have that daily reminder. And I was like, thank you. You just taught me how to sell wall art to my own clients. So I tell that story to every single client, and they're like, yeah, you know what? You're right. I do want something. I do want that daily reminder. I want that pick-me-up. I want that daily affirmation to remind me about this experience and the new way that I've learned to see myself as a result. So that's what I'm doing when I'm doing the consultation, and in the sales room is I'm giving each product a job. So now it's not I'm not selling on paper types or well, this package has 5, 8 x 10s, but that package has 12. Like, I'm not selling on that level. I'm selling of, do you want a visual affirmation? Do you want something that holds quantity in print, or would you rather have that in digital, or do you want both? So it's a different kind of decision making process when we're not talking about paper types and page thickness and that kind of thing.

I've only done a few interviews on boudoir. On this show, I'm always struck by the powerful psychology of boudoir photography and what it does for the clients, the empowerment that it gives the clients that you have the fortune to shoot. It's fascinating. I could talk about that all day because I love that idea of how the images are serving them. And then giving each print or item a job is such a great way to think about building value into the package. I want to ask about the fear of success. Some people are like, comfortable selling their top package, knowing that that's the biggest package they're going to sell. But you could sit down with a client that wants this. Oh, and I want the digital zone. I want the this. Oh, and I want the this. And the number gets to a point where it's way more than they thought they would get. Have you seen that before?

Yes. So, this is a part of my lessons in learning how to sell package free. I had a client that I did her boudoir session, and during her sales appointment, I literally ran out of things to sell her. We never hit a point where she was done buying because the price was too high. She just was like, "What is that? That's a portrait box. Yeah, I want one of those. Definitely make it the biggest one. And what is that, an album? Look, well, yeah, we definitely want an album, like with all the images in it." And price was not an issue in her mind. I ran out of things to sell her by the end of the appointment. And her session was I think 9,800 and some change for that one. And she bought several wall portraits, an album, a portrait box, a metal—she bought the digital files. I don't remember everything because it's been a few years, but I remember leaving that session and being like, holy cow. I just had essentially a $10,000 sale. Like there was that moment, you know, because in the moment, I'm just like, you try and play it cool, right? You know, she's like, "So what's my invoice at? "And I'm like, "Oh yeah, it's, you know, 98 and some change. And she's like, "Do you take a check?" And I'm like, mm-hmm, sure do. I'm not even gonna have to pay credit card fees on this. This is awesome. And during that sales appointment, she was talking about that she wanted to do family portraits with us as well. We scheduled her family portrait session for six weeks later. And here's the amazing thing is sometimes people think about sales, and they think that sales means that we are manipulating or being deceitful or being tricky. If this client felt manipulated into spending ten grand with me, she would not have booked that follow-up shoot. So she definitely, you know, felt very comfortable with her choices and her decisions and everything else. So fast forward to her family portrait shoot. I'm like, I'm ready. I'm not running out of stuff to sell this time. So I looked up all new products that I could offer her. You know, knowing the scope of this one was like, like now we've grandparents and we've got extended family we can be sharing these pictures with. So I researched all different kind of products, and at one point, one of the new products that I was showing her, she's like, "I think I want three of those. I'm gonna give one set to the grandparents and one set to the other grandparents. And then I want one for me. How much are they?" And I said, I gotta be honest with you. I don't know. This is a new product. I don't even have full pricing on it yet, but I can certainly let you know. And in my mind, I'm thinking, red alert, red alert, red alert. Like, you never let a client leave without having made a decision, right? Like, that's been ingrained into us as salespeople. And I'm just like, but she wants it. I already showed it to her. Like, what am I going to do? And so we wrapped up her sales appointment, and she starts filling out a check. And I was like, just so you remember, there's still a few products that I have to look up the pricing on. You know, I'll follow up with you. And she's like, "Oh, I know. I'm just going to leave you the check, and you can fill out amount afterward." And I'm like, is this real life right now? Like, what is happening? So I worked out the pricing on everything, and Jeff is looking over my shoulder and he's like, "You're going to have to call her, and you are going to have to say the words $15,000. Like, those words are going to have to come out of your mouth." And I'm like, no, they're not. And he's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, just watch. So I called her up and I said, hey, Kim. This is where we're at, and, like, I'm kind of dragging my feet because I'm freaked out that she's gonna back out, right? So I'm just sort of like recapping her whole order. And I'm like, just so you remember, like, these are all the things that we talked about, and obviously, these things we had prices for. There's a few other things I had to get quotes on. But I've tallied up all of your products, and your total comes to 15,192.48, or whatever the exact number was. But I managed to say it without saying $15,000. And she said, "Okay, fill out the check." And I'm like, okay, okay. So that was actually a really good lesson to me in a lot of things. First of all, just keeping my cool, but also realizing that when you're serving a higher-end clientele like that just want what they want. So we have to be the ones that are not getting in the way. We can't spend our clients' money for them. I heard somebody say that one time, and I'm like, that's, that's the best advice is like, you can't decide how your clients are going to spend the money. So give them the options, let them decide. Let them decide if they want to upgrade or downgrade or what have you, but you just lay out the path and then let them follow it. And where they end up, they end up. So, the drawback is sometimes you do have lower sales, but if you've set up your system properly, you've at least put a floor on that of how low it'll go. But on the other hand, you have clients like this person that between her two sessions in a matter of six weeks, spent $25,000 with us. So the range is much bigger and the ability for your clients to spend more is much higher when you've taken away that ceiling.

That's a good story to tell. That is inspirational. You're sitting down with someone that is hooked on packages. You're going to show them a new way. How do they react when you say, okay, we're moving away from packages. How do they react when they first consider that idea?

You know, I mean, obviously, they have to be on board with it. Whenever Jeff and I are coaching or mentoring anybody, if they don't have buy-in, it's not going to work. So, you know, sometimes part of what we're working on is mindset, right? They have to believe that they're capable of higher sales, and that is more often what they're looking for in mentoring is like, how do I get higher sales? How do I get more clients in the door? They don't necessarily come to us and say, I want to build a new price list that doesn't have packages. Right? So it's a means to an end. But the biggest thing is if you don't believe in your products or if you don't believe in your packages or in your sales system, it's going to fail you because you're not going to have that confidence to be able to make your offerings to your clients. I'm excited about the products that I sell. I love the portrait boxes that we sell and the albums and all the ways we can customize them. Right before this podcast, I actually did a Facebook live in my client group showing all of the products, and like they were getting excited because I'm excited. So if I didn't have faith and if I didn't believe in it, it's not going to work. So I'm never going to be mentoring somebody and force them to go package free if that's not the route they want to go. As I mentioned before, a lot of times we actually encourage them to start with packages, and then as they get more comfortable with sales in general, they can explore ways to outgrow that. But it has to start from a place of confidence first.

Yeah, you mentioned earlier that package free doesn't mean that we just throw a catalog at them and walk away. On top of that, what are some other mistakes that people might make that you haven't already addressed?

Yeah, so package free is not the same as a la carte. That's important. I think really that's the biggest mistake is to not control how they're getting in the door. Right? Not setting limits of like where they have to start. Another mistake that I see people make, and this is true of packages or package free, is they have products that fight with each other on their price list. One example is a client that I mentored was really having a hard time selling albums. And I took a look at her price list, and I said, I can tell you right now why you're not selling them. And she's like, "Really? Why?" And I said, they're buying this other product, aren't they? And she said, "Oh, my gosh, all the time. And I hate that product. And that is the one that they always buy." I'm like, well, first of all, if you hate it, get rid of it. That's easy. But second of all, we have to think the way that our clients think. And so the product, I don't want to say the exact name of it because I don't want to make it sound like I'm throwing shade on a certain vendor or a certain product. But it was essentially a low-priced product that had a lot of images in it. That's the main point. Versus an album, it is a higher priced product that has a lot of images in it. And that's the way that our clients are looking at it. They're looking at it like what's the best way for me to get what I want? What I want is quantity. So that one offers quantity, and that one offers quantity, and that one's cheaper. I'm getting that one. So those two products were cannibalizing each other and fighting with each other on her price list. And she didn't even like selling that cheaper one anyway. So, as soon as we got rid of it, we made a few other changes to her price list and her average sale essentially quadrupled. She was stuck at an $800 average sale. And she messaged me her first sale after starting with her new price list, which was based in packages, but also had room to grow. This is kind of a hybrid model. Her first sale right out of the gate was 4,500. And after getting several clients in the door, she was sitting at an average of about 2,600. So she went from 800 to 2,600, and not by raising her prices. She didn't have to increase the price of anything on there. We actually simplified, got rid of a lot of things, and made her package system make a lot more sense. And then people were able to move through on the path that she laid out.

This has been a killer discussion, and clearly you're an educator. You're bringing people together all the time. If people want to learn more, they want to continue this discussion. Where do they go? How do they get more involved?

Okay, so our educator website is myphotoinsight.com and through there you can get to pretty much all of the other avenues. We have a Facebook group that is just for any photographer that wants to talk shop and talk business. It's essentially business-oriented because that is our passion on what we teach. So you can join the Photo Insight Facebook group. We also are doing a weekly free webinar called Momentum and that is free for you to join. You just get on our mailing list, and then we send you the link every week, and we have a different topic so you can join that as well. And then you can just kind of like check out on the website. We also have private mentoring and coaching options. You can do like single day or a few days at a time or you can do ongoing. So basically, it's going to kind of depend on what it is you're trying to accomplish as far as whether you do, you know, like a one-time thing or an ongoing thing. But there's lots of different ways that we love to work with people. And then shameless plug for PPA. But I am going to be having some videos featured on the PPA YouTube channel coming up here pretty soon. And I'm also teaching an all day pre-con class at Imaging USA and that will be on the business of boudoir. So definitely come and see me if this is something that gets your wheels turning.

Oh, yeah. If people are still watching this interview, they're going to be there or they should be there. That is for sure. Great stuff, Lori. Thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. If you liked the show, here's how you can tell us. Like the show or click subscribe, or better yet, leave us a comment. Tell us and Lori, what did she share that made you go oh, I never thought of it that way. Those comments are gold, and they help us build a better show. If you want to build a better business, you need to be a member of Professional Photographers of America. You're truly missing out if you're not yet a member. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com that's ppa.com I'm Pat Miller, Founder of the Small Business Owners Community, Publisher of the Small Business Summary newsletter. I'm really glad you stopped by. We'll see you right here next time. Take care.