Join Laura and Xhafer, two internet strangers, as they get to know each other while making jokes about one of their favorite TV shows from their childhood, Babylon 5.

Ryan from Yum Yum Podcast joins Laura and Xhafer on the final episode of their crusade to finish Crusade. Meanwhile, the Excalibur finally visits Babylon 5. Lochley takes Gideon to Arby's in Crusade: Episode 7 - The Rules of the Game.

Hello, and welcome to Who Are You?

2

is the Babylon

3

Watchcast hosted by two former strangers,

now friends, who've gotten to know

4

each other while re watching a favorite

show from their childhood, Babylon 5.

5

I'm Ja'far,

6

Laura: And I'm Laura.

7

Xhafer: today we're joined by,

8

Ryan: Ryan,

9

Xhafer: hey Ryan, how've you been?

10

Ryan: Oh, fantastic.

11

I'm so excited to be back here

to help you on your crusade.

12

Xhafer: Our Crusade?

13

to finish crusade, this is

the last episode for us.

14

Laura: crusade, I think.

15

Xhafer: well, I mean, it's

finished at the very least.

16

So, uh, you messaged me, Ryan.

17

You had an idea for a

little cold open fun.

18

So do you wanna, you wanna

throw us the pitch here?

19

Ryan: I do.

20

So Crusade was a short lived series and,

through its run, made direct connections

21

to Babylon 5, having some of the previous

characters and cast members and locations.

22

in it, whether big or small, and in the

episode today we even had some, whether

23

it was Lockley or the Brochiri ambassador,

and I wanted to, know, out of any

24

character from Babylon 5, big or small,

major, recurring, or one off, who would

25

you have liked to have joined the crew?

26

of the Excalibur.

27

Who do you think would have

been a great match for Crusade?

28

Xhafer: I've got two answers.

29

I've got a big answer and a little answer.

30

Laura: Hmm.

31

Xhafer: the big answer is Jakar.

32

Laura: Ah.

33

Xhafer: So I think Jakar could have driven

a lot of story because he's back from

34

his Outer Rim expedition at this point.

35

Per Legend of the Rangers.

36

so we've got that kind of thing

going on, so he can be like the

37

guy who knows what's going on.

38

Kind of like Galen when we don't have

Galen, but not as mystical about it.

39

I think Jakar is going to

be a lot more sensitive.

40

To other worlds and other cultures

compared to Gideon who kind of just

41

tramples over that shit whenever it's

inconvenient for him Repeatedly, so

42

I think that would offer a fun and

interesting perspective on the show

43

And also if you get your car on the

crew, you've got a chance for some more

44

interaction with Londo Having the two of

them together outside of Crusade might

45

take some story work to make happen.

46

If one of them isn't on the crew, you're

not going to get Londo, he's the Emperor.

47

And so when they go to a Centauri

world, Londo can be there and we

48

can get some more banter with them.

49

And also, get a real interesting

perspective on Londo through

50

Jakar at his darkest stage of

his life as he ends the series.

51

That's my big

52

Laura: really neat.

53

Xhafer: My little answer, my more

auxiliary character that I think

54

would be really interesting is Talia.

55

So we are,

56

Ryan: version of

57

Xhafer: well that's the thing

is we're post Psycor now because

58

the Telepath Wars happened.

59

so, what version of Talia

60

And what's she doing?

61

I see her kind of installed as Matheson.

62

Or, maybe not a military person,

but there is a representative of the

63

Bureau of Telepath Investigations,

I think they called it.

64

Laura: Yeah.

65

Something

66

Xhafer: Um, mostly I think that

67

there is a cool story somewhere in

there, and I want to, I want to hear it.

68

I don't know what I'd do with it

exactly, but I think it'd be interesting.

69

Ryan: I'd like her to be

gal pals with Doreena.

70

Just some gals being pals maybe

be roommates for an episode.

71

You know, let them bond, but not too much.

72

It's the 90s after all.

73

Laura: Yeah.

74

No, I think they could

75

spar.

76

Ryan: Oh yeah, yeah.

77

Who has the huskier voice

out of the two of them?

78

Let them go.

79

Let them husk their

80

voices.

81

Laura: also had kind of one big answer.

82

And it does require a little

reworking of Babylon 5 and something

83

that I think we all kind of didn't

like about Babylon 5 right at the

84

end.

85

Not Byron.

86

Ryan: Linear.

87

Linear.

88

Laura: Lanier.

89

Yeah, I would much rather Lanier be

doing this than whatever he's doing.

90

He could bring that like sensitivity

that again uh, Gideon lacks when

91

interacting with other alien cultures.

92

He's much more curious

about how others behave.

93

And really kind about it,

and it'd just be so much more

94

interesting than what they did to

95

him at the end of Babylon 5.

96

Xhafer: that's a good answer.

97

Ryan: Linear and uh, Max can

bond over being perverts.

98

That'd be

99

nice.

100

Um,

101

being creeps?

102

Lovely.

103

Xhafer: Yeah.

104

Laura: other idea I'd had was Jakar,

but I was thinking about also, you

105

know, he spent that time with Leta

out there and Leta's gone now, right?

106

She's,

107

Xhafer: think she's

108

dead?

109

Laura: yeah, she died in the telepath war

110

at this

111

point, I think.

112

Ryan: Yeah, if Patricia Tolman

actually uh, bothered to show up in

113

Crusade, she would have died in that

flashback episode that they had.

114

She would have been the one

that Matheson was talking to.

115

That was the original idea.

116

And Pat Tolman said no.

117

And you'll often note many times

there are scripts where Pat Tolman

118

as leader would have appeared to die

and she just mysteriously was like,

119

I'm not available for that one, Joe.

120

Uh, Legend of the Rangers, Lost Tales

Crusade just happened all three times

121

to be like not available for that Joe.

122

Sorry.

123

Can't can't make it

124

What's I always wants to kill Lita.

125

He always wants to kill Lita off road home

gave him that opportunity and he took it

126

Xhafer: Yeah.

127

Laura: Yeah.

128

Well, like Jakar could have some like

guilt feelings over that or something,

129

you know, dealing with Matheson

and with his like telepath stuff.

130

And we could have some actually

like deep plots in this show.

131

We've tried a few times and I

think we've done a very bad job.

132

Ryan: Yes, I have one answer It's the

only answer and I've thought about

133

it for years and I think it would

tie in beautifully with the themes of

134

the show I think the character would

gel really well with a lot of the

135

cast members, specifically Galen, and

they're a character from Babylon 5 that

136

disappeared without any real circumstance

behind it, which is Brother Theo.

137

Xhafer: Ooh.

138

Ryan: love Brother Theo to be a member of

the crew, because he is someone that was

139

wanting to travel out and meet different

cultures and understand their religions.

140

He's respectful, but

also he's an arsehole.

141

Like, he's, he's a, he's,

you know, he's a snarky guy.

142

He's an older guy.

143

Him and Galen could have some great

back and forths because they're

144

very diametrically opposed, and

yet they're also so, so similar.

145

And I think this series truly lacks, from

my recollection, because it's been a while

146

since I've fully watched it, It lacks

any character that actually is religious.

147

All of the characters in Crusade are

agnostic at best, or atheist at most, and

148

in this episode we're going to talk about.

149

Pretty much any discussion about

culture and religion is met with all

150

the characters rolling their eyes, and I

really wish that What we had in Babylon

151

5 where we had many different factors

of belief whether it was Dylan who was

152

respectful Or you had a Vonnevar who was

spiritual in her own way, but she wasn't a

153

true believer But she also was or you had

Franklin who was a man of science and a

154

man of faith and this series lacks Really

any of that like oddly enough Max Eilerson

155

is the closest you get to a religious

character with his background But he's

156

not a believer He's not a believer

anymore, but he was at some point.

157

And I think Brother Theo would have been

a perfect fit, and I would have loved

158

to have seen him grapple with faith

being challenged, because in Babylon

159

5, we never got to see that from him.

160

We never got to see that.

161

He was just, true in his beliefs.

162

Most we got was with Brother Edward,

but imagine if he got to see all

163

of these different cultures die

and there's not much left of them.

164

I would love to have seen him

share some barbs with, with

165

Gideon and with, you know, Max.

166

That would be fun.

167

Laura: Yeah,

168

And the, the monastery that they had

or the, the, I don't, I don't know my

169

religious terms, but the group that

was on Babylon five was like there

170

to do, they were science, serious

scientists and researchers and all that.

171

And you could have them as like

members of the crew or there are

172

support groups somewhere that brother

Theo gets communications back on, Oh,

173

maybe we should try blah, blah, blah.

174

Like.

175

Yeah, he could have

replaced the apocalypse

176

box.

177

Xhafer: Eh heh heh.

178

Ryan: Never, never replace that.

179

It's one of my favorite things of Crusade.

180

It's one of my unironically favorite.

181

I love the, I love the apocalypse box.

182

Laura: I was so mad it wasn't the

apocalypse box that told us about the

183

Lorkans, or at least we weren't told that,

but it could have been the box, right?

184

Xhafer: maybe it was.

185

Maybe everything was

186

the box, Laura.

187

Laura: yeah.

188

maybe it was

189

Xhafer: Nah, Brother Theo, great call.

190

Um, I mean, reaching to that same

area with Jakar, that missing

191

spirituality, I think it's interesting

that we all call that as the

192

biggest problem with this show.

193

Um,

194

Ryan: Why is it that, why isn't it there?

195

Because the series is specifically

dealing with religious, religious

196

elements throughout it all.

197

And we don't really have

anyone who's religious.

198

I mean, Galen, kind of,

but even then, not really.

199

Like, why isn't it here?

200

It's so weird that it's,

like, none of them are.

201

Xhafer: Yeah.

202

it's bizarre.

203

It's a big gap.

204

And it's clearly glaring for all of us to

come to the same conclusion independently.

205

Laura: Yeah.

206

I wonder what JMS was going through at

this point in his life given up on that

207

Xhafer: We can just blame TNT.

208

That seems to be the thing to do.

209

Laura: And he's like no religion

210

none

211

Xhafer: mm, cut it out.

212

Alright, well, thank you

for that prompt, Ryan.

213

That was, that was fun.

214

We should get into our episode here.

215

Uh, We've got Rules of the Game, our

final episode of our Crusade coverage.

216

Laura: have a question

217

Ryan did you pick this

episode on your own that

218

you wanted this one, okay I wasn't

219

sure.

220

Ryan: I, I wanted this one,

for a couple of reasons, we'll,

221

we'll pick apart as we go along.

222

There was a couple of others I would

have loved to have done, like, The

223

Needs of Earth, I think, is a genuinely

great episode, and I listened to

224

your discussion on it, and you guys

didn't like it as much as I did,

225

and I would love to debate you about

226

that.

227

Um, but I like this episode a lot

too, and it has uh, some, some

228

interesting facets, and some, you

know, pros and cons, You know, for

229

Crusade, for me, like, if there's an

episode that I can at least chew on

230

a bit, that means something, because

there's many, most don't have that.

231

That or any of the Fiona Avery episodes,

I would have loved to have discussed

232

as well, but I chose what I chose.

233

Laura: Yeah.

234

I was curious also, Jaffer, you told me

last time this is like tied for one of

235

the lowest rated episodes of Crusade?

236

Xhafer: When I was looking at, so it

was tied not on IMDb, IMDb listed as

237

one of the best episodes of Crusade?

238

actually.

239

But the um, the movie TV scraping service

that I use for metadata on my home media

240

server, their rating of it was the worst.

241

Laura: Really?

242

Xhafer: and I can't

explain that discrepancy.

243

Um, I don't know where these ratings come

from except users and why it would be

244

one on one and different on the other.

245

Besides, I'm guessing a low sample

size makes it easier to impact.

246

It's hard to say.

247

I mean, that said, they were within a

full point out of ten within each other.

248

Cause I think it was a 5 4 on mine

and a like 6 4, maybe a 6 6 on

249

IMDB, if memory serves, without

having it open in front of me.

250

So it's not like there's

a big window here.

251

Generally, Crusade episodes are rated

higher where I'm getting my stuff from.

252

They're almost all 7s.

253

So I'm guessing it's

small sample size there.

254

Someone really likes the

show and just put it all 10s.

255

Laura: Yeah.

256

Xhafer: lumped into a Babylon 5

collection and someone just rated

257

it 5 stars and called it good.

258

Yeah.

259

Ryan: that's who it was

260

Xhafer: user jms4eva.

261

Laura: Yeah,

262

no, I did not think this was the

worst, so I was very confused.

263

Xhafer: this was, this is a

much better episode than the

264

last one we watched for sure.

265

And I think also, empirically, the one

I've taken the most amount of notes

266

on from a number of pages standpoint,

267

Laura: Wow.

268

Xhafer: hit four pages

of notes on this one.

269

I think I've been averaging two

on an episode of Crusade and

270

five for an episode of Babylon 5.

271

So, yeah.

272

Laura: Yeah.

273

Okay, we better get into it

274

Xhafer: Yeah.

275

so we open uh, Dr.

276

Chambers and Max walking around

Babylon 5 casually dropping.

277

It's been open for a decade now.

278

Laura: Yeah.

279

Xhafer: they discuss how some things

should be left in the past when they

280

run into Max's ex wife, Cynthia.

281

There's a couple things

here that I really like.

282

Um, It's almost like JMS is doing

this scene at the audience, to me.

283

it's, like, some things are

better left in the past, guys.

284

I know I can't do a Babylon 5 spinoff

without going to Babylon 5, but please

285

don't make me do more Babylon 5.

286

Is really the vibe that I get from this.

287

Ryan: It's also to TNT.

288

Hey,

289

TNT, it's dead.

290

We can move on.

291

Like, I, I like Babylon 5

too, but it's, it's You know,

292

things need to go to bed now.

293

Chasey Scoggins doesn't need

to be in the opening credits.

294

It's okay.

295

We can, we can survive.

296

But uh, poor JMS.

297

He won't ever have this.

298

sentiment again while writing

in The Babylon 5 universe.

299

No, we must always have

V5 from this point on.

300

Laura: the set is so great.

301

Like the set is just so much

more interesting to me than

302

the Excalibur has been so far.

303

Mm

304

Xhafer: Yeah, it's, I mean, they're very

close to the original Babylon 5 hallways.

305

They're better lit.

306

Yeah.

307

was my only note of the difference.

308

The Zocalo looks pretty close

when they're walking around.

309

They get on the bridge to

share it in speech and stuff.

310

Like, the sets they do

a really good job with.

311

There's only a couple that feel kind of

weirdly out of place, not Babylon 5 y.

312

but for the most part, everything

felt like the station, which I really

313

Ryan: Oh, yeah.

314

The director for this episode, if I'm

remembering correctly, was Jesus Trevino,

315

who was a mainstay on B5, and, you know,

he knows how to shoot these sets uh, he

316

knows this environment well, and so it

definitely did have like a, oh, we're

317

back home, oh, we're back, we're back

to where we want to be, and then there's

318

no Excalibur in this episode, right?

319

We never cut, we're never inside

of Excalibur in this episode,

320

Xhafer: I don't think,

321

Laura: I think you're

322

Xhafer: don't remember anything.

323

If it is, it's so quick

that it doesn't matter.

324

Laura: Yeah, we see it outside

the station a couple of times, I

325

think, but I don't think we ever

326

go.

327

No, we're in Max's

328

office at the very end,

329

Ryan: At the very

330

end, okay.

331

I take it

332

back.

333

Laura: but it's not like

the bridge or anything.

334

Ryan: no.

335

Xhafer: Enough where you

can tell the difference.

336

Which I appreciate.

337

Gideon argues with the Berkiri

ambassador, and honestly, like,

338

I'm siding with the Berkiri here?

339

Uh, Gideon's just being an asshole.

340

It's just like, oh, well, we signed these

treaties, so we're going to the world.

341

It's not like, This isn't a Berkiri

world, you didn't sign a treaty, bro.

342

Like, you have to just talk

we're not even saying no.

343

We're saying you just have to talk

to these aliens and get the approval

344

from them to go to their world.

345

And he's being super unreasonable

about it, in my opinion.

346

Yeah.

347

Ryan: I I got it.

348

I understood his frustration.

349

Like, that's the thing.

350

It's from a source of, you can trace

where he's coming from, but he's he's

351

very angered by the bureaucracy of it all.

352

So, like, he, like, on paper, this world

is in the Bakiri's rule, but Gideon

353

doesn't understand, like, commonwealth.

354

And, you know, provinces and stuff,

like, what he understands is, like,

355

You guys rule this place, so you

can let me in, we are an alliance.

356

These guys are in the

alliance, why can't I come in?

357

And it's like, oh, cultural values?

358

Oh god, that again?

359

We've seen Gideon throughout the series.

360

Struggle with people's cultural values

getting in the way of the mission.

361

Which is like an interesting

recurring trait to have.

362

Especially when you contrast

it to, say, Sinclair.

363

Who was all about like, let's embrace all

of the people's different cultural stuff.

364

Like, that's the glue that

holds us all together.

365

While Gideon sees it, as

something that's slowing down

366

the job to save the human race.

367

And the Procury guy just looks

him in the eyes and said,

368

Well, humanity will die then.

369

Oh well, bye.

370

Bye bye.

371

Xhafer: You're not even the first

race we've seen wiped out from

372

a plague in the last five years.

373

Like, get over yourself.

374

Mm hmm.

375

Ryan: And again, great return of

that actor who always played the

376

Brachyre ambassador in Babylon 5.

377

He was great to see him again.

378

I popped, I was like, oh this little

weasel, great to see him again.

379

Laura: Yeah,

380

Yeah.

381

Yeah.

382

there's a lot of good, good stuff from the

bit part players in this episode, I think.

383

Xhafer: We go to our terrible,

terrible theme for the last time.

384

Thank fuck.

385

I'm so glad I don't have

to listen to this anymore.

386

Uh, Eh,

387

Ryan: I've, I've softened on

Evan Chen's music quite a lot.

388

I think from Cold, Cold Arms is the

most outrageous his music ever was.

389

And in Crusade it's like, He took a

Xanax, and it was like really low in

390

comparison, and that's what I hate

about the opening theme, is when people

391

say Evan Chen's music is aggressive,

or over the top, or intrusive, I think

392

Cold Arms is where that really comes in,

but you listen to the opening credits

393

of this, this show, and it's so sleepy.

394

It's just so non existent and

395

Xhafer: That's my

396

Ryan: I actually enjoy

397

Evan Chen's music in this episode,

but the opening credits music, I'm

398

just like, what's, what's the mood?

399

What am I supposed to get from this?

400

At least with Cold Arms, I'm like, Yeah,

401

there's rhythmic drumming.

402

I got something to, like, react to.

403

The opening credits You're not reacting

other than to, you know, the voiceover,

404

which is doing all the legwork.

405

Laura: yeah, it's a lot of

work to and I don't think it

406

can carry above the sleepiness

407

like Gary Cole's doing his

408

best But

409

hmm.

410

Ryan: Gary Cole and, um, Woodward.

411

Peter Woodward.

412

But none of them are

all alone in the night.

413

205, 000 tons of spinning

metal all alone in the night.

414

Oh, Michael O'Hare, we

miss your voiceover, sir.

415

When you told us it was a

dangerous place, I believed you.

416

But in this one, it's

like, I'm Matthew Gideon.

417

You sure are, Gary.

418

Xhafer: heh.

419

After Thiem luckily has hashed out

some of this for Gideon, they agree

420

to have dinner since all of their

other plans kind of have to wait now.

421

Cynthia needs money for Max.

422

Presumably a lot of money?

423

I don't know the exchange rate on 2267

credits to USD, but it seems like,

424

it seems like a lot of money to me.

425

By the way, everyone's kind of

balking when they say the amount.

426

Laura: Yeah, this isn't a

hundred thousand pesos We're

427

looking for like this is

428

something

429

Ryan: Credits has always been a weird

thing to pin down how much it is.

430

Like, 50 credits a week was

treated as, like, an extravagance

431

of, like, Oh, they're paying you

50 extra credits to be a Nazi?

432

Oh, that's, that, wow!

433

But then, also Sheridan.

434

They want me to pay 30 extra

credits for my, for my quarters?

435

Screw the establishment, that's too much!

436

We don't know how much

credits have ever been.

437

We've never understood.

438

Like, I think in season one, Jakar

had to pay like 50, 000 credits to

439

Londo within 24 hours and he was

like, I can't get that kind of money.

440

Oh my god, that's a lot of money.

441

So it's always been whatever.

442

I'm sure JMS has said on a forum

somewhere, but like within this

443

within all of the series, we've

never known if credits, how much

444

a credit is to our real world

445

Xhafer: I

446

mean, it works like hyperspace.

447

It's dictated by the needs of

the plot much more than any

448

actual mathematical standard.

449

Laura: right and with this we drive

at home that a hundred thousand

450

credits is a lot because Cynthia

took out A 50, 000 credit loan from

451

this loan shark, and it was a hundred

percent interest in six months.

452

So it's given us like, you know,

this, this atrocious user as interest.

453

And also we kind of have time.

454

Okay.

455

She's, she's had six months if

she owes the hundred thousand.

456

So she got this loan because her business

went belly up because of the plague.

457

So we've got a kind of a

point in time reference.

458

It's been at least six

months since earth got

459

plagued.

460

Ryan: I loved that.

461

I loved her going into all of the

reasonings for why her livelihood has

462

been impacted, and the top down scale of

how the plague impacts someone like her,

463

and now imagine how that is going around

for so many other people, because that's

464

always been one of my biggest critiques

of Crusade is We really don't have a

465

frame of reference for how impactful

this plague is because we are on the

466

outside of it and none of the characters

really have, other than Sarah Chambers,

467

like anyone back home that they're

really struggling and worrying about.

468

And so I like this, this like,

typical Babylon 5 JMS hyper specific

469

detailing of like, oh, this is how.

470

A person would get impacted by the plague

even though they're not on earth And

471

that's, that's interesting, like, this

is the stuff I love about JMS's writing.

472

Xhafer: For sure.

473

Laura: I think crusade is also going

to suffer a little bit now from

474

being watched in the now times by

us, because we've now seen all of the

475

economic effects of a worldwide plague.

476

Xhafer: Yeah.

477

Laura: And uh, we all have

a very vivid picture of it.

478

And this was actually a really good, it's

like, yeah, that's exactly how that works.

479

That's like why the United States

did a bunch of, you know, paid

480

payroll protection loans and stuff

481

Xhafer: Yeah.

482

Laura: It all makes sense.

483

Xhafer: Yeah, very uh,

very prophetic again.

484

Good job, I guess, JMS.

485

Laura: Yeah.

486

Xhafer: A little too

prophetic most of the time.

487

Max agrees to pay the principal out

of principle, but not the interest.

488

I'm so proud of that.

489

Gideon is still indignant about not

respecting other worlds sovereignty.

490

Rich coming from an American, I know.

491

Backdoor talk on the second date.

492

Seems a bit forward though, Gideon.

493

Didn't appreciate the tone he took there.

494

Laura: I'm also really disappointed

that their date is not in fresh air.

495

Anybody else?

496

Xhafer: They couldn't get that set.

497

It was hallways or fresh air, Laura.

498

Take your pick.

499

Right.

500

Laura: I'm

501

Ryan: have been a maitre d trying to offer

them a coffee with a little something

502

special in it, if you know what I mean.

503

You know, a little, a little something

uh, the special coffee for sir.

504

I, look, Lockley has never once in a day

in her life gone into a fancy restaurant.

505

that woman's never eaten at a fancy

restaurant in her fucking life.

506

You're kidding yourself if

she's ever gone to fresh air.

507

She's eating in the mess hall, she's

grabbing, she's grabbing the whole

508

jar of sugar and taking it with her.

509

She's, she's not allowed to

do that out of the fresh air.

510

They're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

you're a captain and all, but you

511

can't just walk into the kitchen

and take all of our pancakes.

512

And she, she can, in the mess hall,

because who's gonna, who's gonna stop her?

513

Corwin?

514

Xhafer: No,

515

if Lockley, as a character, were

transplanted to Earth modern day,

516

she would live inside a Denny's.

517

Ryan: Yeah, no, I, I actually liked their

banter back and forth in this scene.

518

I didn't mind the forwardness

because, um, from what I recall

519

from their previous interactions,

they've, they've been forward.

520

As, as a dynamic.

521

They've been very, you know, proactive

in that way, like, never eat anything

522

bigger than your head, you know, the

burger thing from one of the previous

523

episodes that he talked to her about, and

I, I like their, I like their dynamic.

524

They're both, like, we'll talk about it.

525

more as the episode goes on, but they're

both, like, ultra professional freaks.

526

Who, who understand one another.

527

Xhafer: Yeah.

528

Laura: I just want better

for my girl Lockley.

529

He's so mansplaining in

530

here and I'm just like,

531

girl,

532

Ryan: She has an insane, she has an

insane line later that I can't wait

533

to discuss.

534

Laura: But hey, speaking of sets that

we got back Eilerson goes to look for

535

the Lone Shark goon in the Dark Star.

536

Xhafer: Babylon 5's premiere

goth industrial club.

537

Great to see that back.

538

Glad they kept the signs.

539

I wonder whose basement those

were in for three years.

540

Laura: Joe's.

541

Ryan: Douglas Netters.

542

Um, I like the music in this scene.

543

I thought Evan Chen did a really

good like, sleazy, strip joint

544

kind of dancey, erotic feel here.

545

I actually liked it.

546

I thought it matched the mood very well.

547

Laura: Yeah, I actually didn't

notice it, which means it wasn't

548

intrusive, so he must have done well.

549

Xhafer: Max is here to talk to the

debtor to clear Cynthia's debt, but

550

it doesn't go according to his plan.

551

He's hoping he can just throw 50,

000 at this guy and get him to fuck

552

off, and that is not what happens.

553

There's lots of

554

Ryan: Please, please,

please name the debtor.

555

Come on, do you

556

Xhafer: I did not write his name down.

557

Elfmula.

558

Ryan: loves gangsters with the weirdest

names ever, you know, Trace, you remember

559

Trace the gangster from season 5?

560

Or, you know, what was it uh, uh, jinx?

561

No, no, um, Deuce, you remember Deuce?

562

Played by William Sanderson?

563

Like, these gangsters always

have these freaky names.

564

Oh, and Rolf Mueller, watch out

everyone, it's Rolf Mueller.

565

Laura: Yes.

566

So intimidated.

567

Xhafer: after this, the Larkins meet

with Lachlene Gideon and a real preachy.

568

We get the gist.

569

Basically, their xenophobic

religion makes it a no go for the

570

Excalibur to roll up on the planet.

571

Laura: I love these guys.

572

They are so extra.

573

Everything they say is just

this great, take on the line.

574

And every time they say

something about the Most Holy,

575

they like, vogue a little bit.

576

I love it.

577

Xhafer: It's a lot of fun.

578

These two, these two fuckin weirdos.

579

I love these

580

Laura: Yeah.

581

So

582

Ryan: You noted down, you noted

down who one of them was played by?

583

Laura: I did not.

584

You're gonna tell me

585

Xhafer: I've

586

Ryan: Tim Choate, a.

587

k.

588

a.

589

Xhafer: Oh, you

590

Ryan: was the aide, was the attache, was

591

the, like, little slimy one that

was like, Why are we doing this?

592

It's like, Because this is what we do!

593

So that was Tim Choate, coming

back to Babylon 5 in ano oh,

594

the universe in another role.

595

Isn't that

596

Xhafer: fun.

597

Now that you say that, I remember

his name in the credits, in the

598

beginning, and going, Oh, Tim Schoat!

599

Yay!

600

And then completely forgetting

he's in this 30 seconds later.

601

Ryan: hmm.

602

Laura: That just explains

why I love them so

603

much.

604

Ryan: Yeah,

605

I found their whole

concept interesting though.

606

I found it like an interesting thing and

it's a recurring thing in Crusade that we

607

keep every now and then bumping into these

isolationists xenophobic races that are

608

all about looking after themselves and how

that ties back into the moral quandary of

609

Excalibur's mission and like the balancing

act that Gideon has to ride in which we've

610

seen him many many times over have to

Wonder if he is becoming the things that

611

he's encountering, like, Oh, I'm looking

out for the, you know, the needs of Earth.

612

I'm looking out for us, and I'm willing

to break any rules to do so and yet

613

I will balk at societies that are

myself to the extreme in a lot of ways.

614

And these ones are using religious stuff,

but they are also, like, People who went

615

to an alien planet that wasn't theirs.

616

found all of this technology and

civilization that has long gone and

617

been dead, just like how the Excalibur

is going to go through and grave rob,

618

and decided that this is, this is us.

619

We are worthy of this.

620

We deserve this.

621

And I think it's like an interesting kind

of heightening of what the entire premise

622

is dealing with, with, with Crusade.

623

Because the thing about Crusade is,

yeah, we're watching people try and

624

solve a plague, but also how much.

625

of it is them just grave robbing.

626

Or, you know, barging into

cultures and just taking what

627

they need and running off.

628

And that's, that's like one of the

brilliant things about this series

629

that JMS did have his finger on

the pulse on, but I just wish we

630

had more of it for the time being.

631

But I, I like how it's used

here, and I have a fun fact.

632

So, JMS loves this idea about this

race coming in and advancing themselves

633

via the stolen technology, because

that was going to be the reveal.

634

Of what the bad guys were

in Legend of the Rangers.

635

The, the, what were they?

636

The Hand, or whatever.

637

And if that series went to air, that

was gonna be the big twist was they're

638

not actually an ancient alien race.

639

They're just some assholes who found

ancient technology and pretended

640

that they're ancient and alien.

641

And he likes that idea.

642

He likes this Scooby Doo idea.

643

Mm

644

Laura: Yeah.

645

Xhafer: Rip the mask off.

646

Yeah no, I, I do really like these aliens.

647

I like the culture.

648

I like the setup.

649

Um, I don't like the twist

with them at the end.

650

We'll, we'll get to that when we get

there, but I think that was a big letdown.

651

Um, all right.

652

So after this Cynthia's

cat gets grabbed under

653

Laura: Yeah.

654

Poor Mr.

655

Kitty.

656

Xhafer: Mr.

657

Kitten is something a

sociopath would name their cat.

658

Laura: I'm pretty sure, based

on the dedication at the end,

659

that JMS named his cat Mr.

660

Kitty.

661

Xhafer: Yeah, it's a, that's

an absurd name for a cat.

662

Mr.

663

Kitten.

664

Ryan: Got a

665

whole chapter in his

autobiography, that cat,

666

I'm pretty

667

Xhafer: I need to read it still, but

668

Ryan: We don't have time, well,

we'll talk about it as we go on, but,

669

the whole history of JMS and

that cat is actually one of

670

the most heartfelt parts of his

autobiography, and tragic, so, oh boy.

671

Xhafer: Ugh,

672

Laura: Oh.

673

man.

674

I,

675

I hope that the picture at the end of Mr.

676

Kitty was really

677

Mr.

678

Kitty, right?

679

Ryan: I'm pretty sure it was, yeah.

680

Laura: Yeah.

681

What a great cat.

682

Xhafer: Lockley tells Gideon that Sheridan

is getting involved here to help with

683

the Lorkans, but it's going to take a

little bit of time, so the Excalibur

684

is going to be at port for a few days.

685

Gideon tries to get Lockley out to

dinner, but it turns into an argument

686

about being amongst the common folk.

687

Laura: This is where I was pretty mad.

688

This was the mansplaining, like,

oh, this is how you should be,

689

let's go do this thing, and then

she does, like, hand him his ass

690

Xhafer: Yeah, well I think the

691

Laura: fuck off, stop telling me

how and who to be, you fuckin idiot.

692

Xhafer: the only reason she allows this

to happen is because she knows she's

693

gonna hand him his ass immediately.

694

Laura: Yeah.

695

Xhafer: I think Lockley would have

shut this down very quickly otherwise.

696

But like, third space

697

has

698

happened at this point, right?

699

Ryan: yeah, and River of Souls and

stuff, like, yeah, we've had all

700

Xhafer: So, so we've had

hollow brothel Lockley.

701

On the station at this point.

702

Laura: Mm.

703

Xhafer: it's just like, wouldn't

that alone negate I mean, Gideon

704

wouldn't know about that, but I feel

like that alone negates his point.

705

Let alone it actually not being true, and

luckily just being correct and the best.

706

Ryan: But that's why it works for us as an

audience if we are followers of Babylon 5.

707

We know Lockley we know that she

would be recognised, that she is

708

someone who goes out of her way to

mingle with the populace of Babylon 5.

709

She's very hands on.

710

I actually did like the back and forth.

711

Conversation though about how they're

both people of military power and yet

712

they think oh no We're just you know,

we're just you know, normal people we

713

can just you know, people will recognize

it won't be it'll be fine You know

714

in this whole discussion about like

do you understand the common folk?

715

You're out there in your spaceship flying

around and then he's like, well do you

716

understand the common folk because you're

in this isolated bubble where you get

717

to see the the quote unquote best of the

best of these alien representatives as you

718

talk to their ambassadors, but I actually

go to their planets and I see the dark

719

underbellies, I see the societal problems

and I like at the end of this episode, we

720

kind of get the like a middle ground of

like how both of them experience the best.

721

and worst parts of other societies,

but still don't really understand them.

722

Xhafer: Mm

723

hmm.

724

Laura: Ultimately, they're going

down to, like, down below, right?

725

That's what it looked

like we were trying to do.

726

Gonna do some plainclothes stuff while the

Lorkhans keep following them with their

727

spy cam, because apparently security has

not gotten any better, thanks a lot, Zack

728

Xhafer: Yeah.

729

They need to protect their

sanctity from colonialism, so

730

they're gonna kill these fucks.

731

Like, like, that will stop

anything, but here we are.

732

Chambers goes to Cynthia to hang out

and get some dirt on Max, which is fun.

733

As Max preps his Nerf brand disc launcher.

734

Lockly runs Gideon to her usual Sandow

spot for an easy hundred credits.

735

Just making Gideon look so dumb.

736

Laura: Yeah.

737

She's, she's got that need for the

Arby's again, anyway, you know?

738

Xhafer: we go back to that

drossy roast beef vendor.

739

Laura: Uh

740

Ryan: Yeah, we actually get to see it,

we actually get to see it, like where she

741

goes and again, beautiful payoff to What

we have talked about many times over,

742

especially on the discord, of just this

weird running Joke, that Lockley eats

743

the most fucking disgusting, absurd food

ever, like in her first episode, she's

744

all, I'm business, I'm professional,

I'm better than Ivanova, I'm here to

745

run the station, I'm a normal person,

cut to her, in the first episode, cut

746

to her eating spicy ribs while chugging

milk and doing paperwork out in the

747

open, that's like in the first episode.

748

To then eventually the show's like, Oh,

you love eating big, sloppy alien burgers.

749

And she's like, Yeah.

750

I do, baby.

751

I love eating big, sloppy alien burgers.

752

I'm, I'm a, I'm a person of the people.

753

I love just eating garbage.

754

I, I wish she had her, her crazy

straw in this one too, where she

755

had like a big Coke or whatever.

756

I love that they get Tracy Scoggins,

who's, you know, really, like, attractive

757

and she was a bodybuilder and all of this

stuff, like, she was real fit, workness,

758

you know, fitness exercise freak.

759

And her character is like, she will

just pour tons of sugar on everything.

760

She's just gonna eat the most

foul looking things in the show

761

and we'll rarely comment on it.

762

Like, if you go back to season five

of B5, Pretty much most episodes with

763

her will have some weird detail of

her eating something just bizarre.

764

And I love it.

765

And I love that Crusade embraced it.

766

They're like, no, we love this about

Lockley, that she's all business,

767

but she's a, she's a weird person.

768

Xhafer: I know we love Lise,

but we also love Lockley.

769

Laura: Yeah.

770

Xhafer: percent.

771

Yep, for sure.

772

What a queen.

773

She just fucking destroys Gideon

in this scene, and I'm here

774

for every fucking second of it.

775

Laura: Me too.

776

I do enjoy that.

777

Xhafer: Max hires some drossy while

Lockley takes Gideon to her private place.

778

Is it just me, or is this where the

assassin was hiding in the pilot?

779

Laura: Mm.

780

Xhafer: got the, like, weird blind

thing that we saw in that weird hallway

781

when he was trying to kill Sinclair.

782

We've got the, like, pedestal thing.

783

Like, I think this is, I don't

know if it's meant to be this

784

exact spot, but it feels a lot

like that scene in the pilot to me.

785

Laura: what a nice

786

symmetry.

787

Ryan: They had industrial fans,

so they brought those back.

788

This is my favorite scene in the episode.

789

I really like this scene.

790

I'm a big fan of when JMS

writes romantic scenes, I guess.

791

scenes.

792

I think he has a, a real understanding

of mature adult relationships,

793

warts and all, wrinkles and

all, just little eccentricities.

794

I, I think when he stops and takes a

moment to let just characters, reflect on

795

things and be quiet because this episode

is a lot of running around a lot of quips

796

a lot of jokes a lot of action a lot of

This and this scene will get interrupted

797

by a bunch of bullshit um I like when it's

just them sitting there quietly getting

798

to know each other and she's eating a

burger and you get This whole sentiment

799

about how they're people who just have to

come up with excuses to do stuff because

800

they can't be alone in their thoughts.

801

And I like that it beautifully

captures why Gideon and Lockley

802

would work as a couple and also not.

803

And I like her whole sentiment

of just, that they get to be co

804

conspirators for a little while

and Let's just enjoy this moment.

805

These are the things I wish Crusade

had more of, which is just characters

806

stopping the plot and just having

these moments of connection.

807

Xhafer: Like, everything is terrible.

808

Like, the human race is on the

verge of extinction, like, Earth is

809

effectively going to be a wasteland,

everything is in the fucking shitter.

810

And the fact that no one stops to

talk about what that means to them in

811

13 episodes, it's, you're right, it's

this kind of stopping moment that

812

we need a lot more of in this show.

813

Laura: Yeah.

814

I mean, this is traumatic.

815

Even if you are not a human

on earth, this is trauma.

816

It is insane that Excalibur does

not have like a ship's counselor.

817

Like why do we not have a Deanna

Troy talking to people every now and

818

again about what, what this thing

819

is,

820

Ryan: Yeah, and again, I'm, I'm,

you know, this is, part of the thing

821

I'll talk about too, but I'm pro

Lockley and Gideon as a relationship.

822

If this series kept going, I don't know

how they would have worked Lockley in.

823

But it's actually, I think, one

of the best dynamics of the show.

824

I like them together.

825

I like their bickering.

826

I like their brashness.

827

I like that they're both control

freaks, but they manage to

828

get through to one another.

829

I think both actors carry

the scenes together.

830

I think they have chemistry, but in

the most, you know, weird of ways.

831

But I don't know, realistically,

how you would have that continue on.

832

in any function other than, like, it's

hard enough how they do it in, in this 13

833

episodes, where it's like, oh, Lockley's

Starfury just happens to be lost in space

834

in this moment, like, that was absurd,

but I was happy to see them, but Yeah.

835

like, this episode, like, I'm watching

and I'm going, Crusade doesn't have any

836

romance, and I actually like that in

Babylon 5, I like the romance in B5, as

837

I said, I think it's some of JMS's best

writing, Crusade doesn't have the time for

838

it for the most part, and weirdly enough,

Lockley, who is tied to being the ruler

839

of Babylon 5, is the vehicle to allow

that to happen, but it's like, inherently,

840

how can you have her in the show?

841

How can you have these two in the show?

842

Xhafer: have to do limited episodes.

843

Here's my pitch.

844

You do a couple limited episodes.

845

You have one where Lockley gets leave

and Gideon doesn't, so she's just

846

on the Excalibur for her time off.

847

And is stuck in an Excalibur adventure.

848

And then you have the same.

849

You have Gideon get, like, a week off.

850

And then we'll see Matheson

running the ship doing stuff.

851

And we'll cut over to Gideon

on Babylon 5 for, like, an

852

assassination on an ambassador plot.

853

Cause Lockley's not off.

854

And it's just a normal episode

of Babylon 5 with Gideon.

855

And then we have one where we do a

like, Captain's Holiday kind of thing

856

from TNG where they're both on vacation

and they go to some vacation planet

857

but they get caught in some other

adventure and some bullshit happens.

858

I think that's the only way, and you could

do One of each of those in a season, and

859

it would probably not feel particularly

forced or a little more organic.

860

But I agree, like, just finding your

Starfury in the middle of space is

861

absolutely mind bogglingly insane.

862

The coincidence, like,

863

Laura: Yeah.

864

Ryan: Like, that's The tragedy of

Crusade, is, what good things there

865

are, are struggling to get out.

866

And or, because of the format,

or the network meddling, You

867

can't bring them to fruition.

868

You just can't bring them to fruition.

869

Like, I think this relationship is

one of the strongest things of the

870

series, but because of the format,

and because of all of these extraneous

871

circumstances, How can you make it happen

realistically within the series without

872

having to drastically change things

in which us B5 fans would agree with?

873

Like.

874

I don't believe Lockley would quit

working at Babylon 5 just to be with him.

875

Never.

876

And I don't believe he would stop

doing the mission to be with her.

877

Like, it's one of those things where

it's like, and throughout this episode

878

we're gonna have like, little moments

where it's like, Oh, that's interesting.

879

You don't get time.

880

There's just not time, and there's

just no way that a lot of this

881

could have got to bloom even

without the network interference.

882

Xhafer: like, Pegasus ing and adding a

second ship that Lockley is in command of.

883

And then they're just doing, they're

going to the same places for some reason,

884

which is also not what would happen.

885

You'd, you'd divvy up and do the things.

886

Like, it's just, there's

just no way to make it work.

887

Logistically.

888

Laura: You could only get

away with like sending her.

889

Because Sheridan's like, oh, well, Lockley

has dealt with these people before, so

890

let's send her out there, too.

891

You can only do that,

892

like, once or twice.

893

Ryan: was hard enough to believe

that they would let her be the person

894

running security at Mars conference

thing, like, what, not Zack?

895

Like, you know, that's insane,

896

but You have to get her in there,

you have to get her But here's the

897

thing, we can talk about all this,

898

but here's how the scene goes.

899

They have a nice moment of

connection, and then I smell ozone!

900

Oh no, an attack!

901

And now we jump around!

902

And now there's people with red

jewels on their head because

903

I've watched Logan's run.

904

And now we're gonna b b blast laser beams,

and it's like What nice moment you have

905

is interrupted by a bunch of just garbage.

906

Just plain, jane, boring,

90's schlock action garbage.

907

Laura: Mm hmm.

908

Yeah.

909

I did like the rhinestone hand, though.

910

That made me laugh really hard.

911

Xhafer: I call them

infinity gems, in my notes.

912

Laura: yeah.

913

Okay, yeah.

914

Xhafer: Cynthia tells Chambers about the

real Max, but they are interrupted by

915

Crime Guy, who makes a real rapey comment

about how to pay off the other 50k.

916

Laura: Yeah.

917

Xhafer: had to pause and just

get up for a minute and just

918

be all like, That wasn't cool.

919

That was, that was too much TNT.

920

Ugh.

921

Laura: TNT loves to allude to something.

922

Yeah.

923

Ryan: I'll

924

Give the, uh,

925

give the actor credit who plays this thug.

926

I, I thought he did a good job

playing like, apathetic gangster man.

927

Like, you could, like, he just had this

certain aura of just like, I've, you

928

know I'm a professional criminal, right?

929

Like, you can't intimidate me.

930

What are you?

931

You're some fucking yuppie and

you're gonna come in here and

932

tell me oh, I've got principles.

933

Oh fuck Get out of here, you know,

and he and he sells this actor

934

sells the goofiness of he kidnapped

this woman's cats That's so stupid.

935

But yet when we actually spend time

with this guy and even in this scene

936

There's genuine moments of just

like, he really doesn't care and

937

it's, it's unsettled, unsettling.

938

And again, it's not the greatest

performance ever, but I think he brings

939

something to a very nothing role.

940

Laura: Yeah.

941

Yeah.

942

And in the previous episode, I had

told Ja'far that I thought the most

943

unbelievable part of the description

of this episode was that Max Eilerson

944

had found someone to marry him.

945

She explains herself that Max was

like the really smart, but mouthy

946

kid, and So I guess we've all known

each other since we were children.

947

Cause even the goon is like talking

like he knew Eilerson when they were

948

younger, or at least he knows all about

949

his childhood apparently.

950

Ryan: He can just read him.

951

He can read who Max is

just because he's so

952

obvious.

953

Um, Her description of

Max is just uh, JMS.

954

Laura: I kind

955

of

956

Ryan: just JMS.

957

It's how he describes

himself and his life.

958

It's just JMS.

959

It's

960

just Max is the JMS

stand in for the series.

961

Max and Galen are the two J

voices of JMS in this show.

962

And I think that's so peculiar.

963

Um, I'm a Max fan, by

the way, shock of shocks.

964

I'm, I'm pro Max.

965

I'm, I'm, I'm HBO Max, you know, I

like Max as a character and we'll talk

966

about it as we get more Max material,

but I, I like this description of

967

him of just like, he was a prodigy,

he was academically wise, but he

968

had, he had no social understanding.

969

He had no friends.

970

He was always someone.

971

proving themselves and

in competition and so.

972

His trajectory of being a corporate

yuppie makes, makes complete sense.

973

Makes complete sense, like, this is

someone who was almost bred to be this

974

way, and the fact that she lost this

relationship because he became a good

975

company man, I, I felt that was a really

good sentiment, and, Again, not to keep

976

psychoanalyzing JMS, but, y'know, Him

and his wife's relationship, especially

977

during this time in life, is interesting.

978

It's very interesting.

979

Laura: Well, I'll spoil something

for you for an episode you haven't

980

gotten to listen to yet, Ryan,

but I kicked Max Eilerson out of

981

the reboot.

982

I do not like

983

Max Eilerson.

984

Ryan: Don't worry,

he'll be the star of the

985

reboot.

986

Laura: Mm.

987

I just.

988

I, you know, I've dealt with this man

kind of, you know, in, in different points

989

of life and I don't got time for that.

990

I don't.

991

And I think that her deal was, you know,

she probably thought I can fix him and,

992

you know, you can't honey, don't waste

993

your time.

994

You got enough life to live on your

995

own.

996

So.

997

Ryan: No, only a magical technomage, or

998

a thief alien, or a guy who speaks

to a mysterious box can fix this guy.

999

Laura: Uh Huh.

00:48:23,368 --> 00:48:23,788

Xhafer: So,

00:48:23,793 --> 00:48:25,903

Laura: apocalypse box could fix anything.

00:48:26,228 --> 00:48:27,654

Xhafer: chambers uh, punches.

00:48:27,654 --> 00:48:31,664

This guy he runs out Gideon

and Lockley are on the run.

00:48:32,234 --> 00:48:36,294

After Ardettir gets punched by

Chambers, he gets dropped by the Drazi.

00:48:36,688 --> 00:48:41,468

And the Larkins get sneak attacked by

Gideon after Lockley distracts them.

00:48:41,938 --> 00:48:45,058

Gideon uses a big pipe

to subdue the Larkins.

00:48:45,544 --> 00:48:46,194

Larkins.

00:48:47,164 --> 00:48:48,384

Yeah, yeah, Larkins.

00:48:48,394 --> 00:48:50,968

Like the uh, like the guy from uh, H.

00:48:51,028 --> 00:48:51,788

John Benjamin.

00:48:51,838 --> 00:48:52,198

Yeah,

00:48:52,642 --> 00:48:53,552

Ryan: it bothers me.

00:48:54,412 --> 00:48:59,902

It does bother me that these

people are willing to kill Lockley.

00:49:00,442 --> 00:49:04,592

The justification that the script comes

up with for why they will want to kill

00:49:04,602 --> 00:49:07,622

Lockley is like, it's piss, it's poor.

00:49:07,812 --> 00:49:09,032

It's, it's super poor.

00:49:09,042 --> 00:49:09,912

It's so

00:49:10,852 --> 00:49:16,472

weak and I, I, I know I'm a Lockley fan

and I, I love Tracy Scoggin's performance

00:49:16,482 --> 00:49:21,972

and I think this is a case in which

because she's such a good actress.

00:49:22,527 --> 00:49:26,997

It makes the script even worse,

because when she turns around and

00:49:26,997 --> 00:49:33,337

looks at these two bizarre aliens,

and, like, has a moment of connection

00:49:33,337 --> 00:49:37,727

with them, and like, I believed it

so much that it made me retroactively

00:49:37,737 --> 00:49:42,967

go back to the story and make it even

more damning, of like, no way would

00:49:42,967 --> 00:49:45,362

these aliens Fucking kill this woman.

00:49:45,362 --> 00:49:46,182

There's no way.

00:49:46,252 --> 00:49:50,442

There's no way in my mind with what

we're given and Tracey Scoggins when

00:49:50,452 --> 00:49:52,142

she's, you know Luring them to the trap.

00:49:52,422 --> 00:49:53,682

She's so convincing.

00:49:53,682 --> 00:49:56,772

She is the commanding

officer of Babylon 5.

00:49:56,842 --> 00:50:00,832

She's the diplomat She's the one that's

probably met with these people day to day

00:50:00,832 --> 00:50:06,042

to day to day I just can't believe that

they would do this The script is just

00:50:06,242 --> 00:50:10,437

having to bend over backwards to find

reasons for them to be The traditional

00:50:10,447 --> 00:50:15,827

alien bad guys who run around and shoot

lasers because we've got to kill Gideon.

00:50:16,127 --> 00:50:17,347

Oh, and Lockley's there too.

00:50:17,367 --> 00:50:19,367

So, oh, you know, two birds, one stone.

00:50:19,397 --> 00:50:21,277

It just, I'm sorry, JMS.

00:50:21,287 --> 00:50:22,427

It just does not work

00:50:22,457 --> 00:50:26,347

Xhafer: it doesn't work so

much, it makes me disbelieve it.

00:50:26,762 --> 00:50:31,942

Like, I don't think that they

were actually selling technology

00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:34,712

and that this was all cover.

00:50:34,712 --> 00:50:36,442

They were just trying

to save their own asses.

00:50:37,062 --> 00:50:42,152

I think that their religious zealotry

and fear of the other got so much

00:50:42,152 --> 00:50:45,642

that they were willing to kill

both of them to prevent anyone from

00:50:45,642 --> 00:50:47,502

disrupting the sanctity of their world.

00:50:47,802 --> 00:50:52,462

And that their premier, whoever shows

up at the end, I don't remember if

00:50:52,462 --> 00:50:56,292

we get a title for him to explain

away what these guys were doing.

00:50:56,967 --> 00:50:59,487

Because we learned they're

like, the pope of the religion.

00:51:00,027 --> 00:51:02,237

You know, they say that these

guys are like, they're religious

00:51:02,237 --> 00:51:05,857

leaders that were, you know, the

most uncorruptible, were corrupted.

00:51:06,247 --> 00:51:10,817

And I think really, it's just, they got

ahead of themselves, and they bought

00:51:10,817 --> 00:51:15,197

into their own bullshit, and their

own zealotry, and just ran with it.

00:51:15,387 --> 00:51:18,557

And he makes this excuse to save face.

00:51:18,847 --> 00:51:20,517

Not because it's actually true.

00:51:21,191 --> 00:51:21,651

Ryan: Mmm.

00:51:22,171 --> 00:51:23,181

Interesting read.

00:51:23,191 --> 00:51:28,896

And again, If only the episode spent time

on what it promised at the beginning.

00:51:29,326 --> 00:51:32,586

What it promised at the beginning

could have been an equivalent

00:51:32,596 --> 00:51:36,346

of so many great B5 stories.

00:51:36,346 --> 00:51:39,566

I thought of Believers at the beginning

of this episode, in which you have

00:51:39,566 --> 00:51:45,286

a culture that's so staunch in their

religious opinion, and our characters

00:51:46,076 --> 00:51:49,776

have different views, and they have

to lock horns on that, but instead

00:51:49,776 --> 00:51:56,121

it just becomes They are guys who

are going to kill you with a weapon.

00:51:56,351 --> 00:52:00,081

And that's inherently less

interesting, because at the end

00:52:00,081 --> 00:52:02,091

of this all, what do we gain?

00:52:02,951 --> 00:52:04,321

What do we gain theologically?

00:52:04,881 --> 00:52:07,711

What do we gain on an intellectual level?

00:52:08,281 --> 00:52:08,771

Nothing.

00:52:09,051 --> 00:52:09,791

We get nothing.

00:52:09,791 --> 00:52:13,651

Oh, there's some stuff we can talk about

at the end in that spin story about like,

00:52:14,231 --> 00:52:18,491

you know, Oh, you humans are so despicable

that we actually want you there.

00:52:18,491 --> 00:52:22,521

Like that's something but

that's also like so minimal.

00:52:22,691 --> 00:52:23,631

It's so minimal.

00:52:24,890 --> 00:52:28,060

Xhafer: After this, we get a shot of

the Excalibur Park next to the station.

00:52:28,785 --> 00:52:30,585

I love this shot.

00:52:31,355 --> 00:52:33,255

This is such a good shot.

00:52:33,505 --> 00:52:37,585

It's just, this is the first time I felt

like the Excalibur might actually have

00:52:37,585 --> 00:52:39,705

miles of basketball courts inside of it.

00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,530

Um, it really, really does a lot to

show us the actual size of this thing.

00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,410

Laura: I think this is the first

episode that there wasn't some

00:52:50,420 --> 00:52:52,710

bad CGI that really took me out of

00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,280

Xhafer: yeah.

00:52:53,950 --> 00:52:55,240

Laura: This is actually really good.

00:52:55,470 --> 00:52:56,670

Xhafer: Yeah, this scene

looked really good.

00:52:57,260 --> 00:53:01,695

Max and the Debtor discuss what a

bitch Max is but the Nerf ring Around

00:53:01,695 --> 00:53:05,115

his neck, with the thing from Battle

Royale, so we get a little, if he

00:53:05,115 --> 00:53:08,825

comes within ten feet of me, he'll have

a hard time getting a head in life.

00:53:09,422 --> 00:53:11,030

Laura: Eh, heh, heh,

00:53:11,317 --> 00:53:12,067

Xhafer: blow off his head.

00:53:12,277 --> 00:53:12,647

Yeah.

00:53:13,347 --> 00:53:14,137

No, nothing, right?

00:53:14,137 --> 00:53:14,787

Okay, fine.

00:53:14,797 --> 00:53:15,377

Stonewall me.

00:53:15,377 --> 00:53:16,197

I see how it is.

00:53:16,197 --> 00:53:19,572

Heh heh heh,

00:53:19,937 --> 00:53:20,897

Ryan: no, I'm sorry.

00:53:21,177 --> 00:53:22,497

I'm sorry, buddy.

00:53:22,537 --> 00:53:23,877

I just couldn't join you on that

00:53:23,877 --> 00:53:24,297

ride.

00:53:25,272 --> 00:53:28,942

Xhafer: making a joke straight from

Austin Powers is not enough for you.

00:53:28,992 --> 00:53:29,922

I see how it is.

00:53:30,613 --> 00:53:31,293

Ryan: Yeah, baby.

00:53:31,293 --> 00:53:31,403

Yeah,

00:53:31,907 --> 00:53:34,457

Xhafer: He agrees to leave

Max and Cynthia alone.

00:53:35,167 --> 00:53:38,327

But you know who's not

alone in this next scene?

00:53:39,273 --> 00:53:43,733

Laura: Oh, oh, no!

00:53:43,768 --> 00:53:46,278

Ryan: came in and saved

everything we need.

00:53:46,318 --> 00:53:49,008

Evan Chen, he understood the assignment.

00:53:49,008 --> 00:53:52,548

Transcribed You say his music is

inappropriate, this is 100 percent

00:53:52,548 --> 00:53:57,948

appropriate because I love Lockley

and Gideon Shaw, but boy oh, boy,

00:53:58,038 --> 00:54:01,998

you can feel TNT's grubby little

fingers all over this scene.

00:54:02,348 --> 00:54:03,598

And Evan Chen's like, Yeah,

00:54:03,598 --> 00:54:04,718

this is just porn.

00:54:05,158 --> 00:54:06,418

You know what this is.

00:54:06,977 --> 00:54:08,097

Xhafer: jazz porn

00:54:08,098 --> 00:54:09,198

Ryan: God bless Evan.

00:54:09,707 --> 00:54:10,907

Xhafer: the music in this is absurd.

00:54:10,917 --> 00:54:16,177

They agreed to conserve her

real water shower and they

00:54:16,177 --> 00:54:18,347

get undressed in the shower?

00:54:19,312 --> 00:54:23,672

It's, it's like, okay guys, um, you

know what, I'm done questioning things.

00:54:23,682 --> 00:54:27,212

And then we get the least

subtle shot in TV history.

00:54:27,772 --> 00:54:32,262

As a vaguely penile rocket

enters the station, as the

00:54:32,262 --> 00:54:34,242

porn music continues to play.

00:54:35,331 --> 00:54:38,181

I was just laughing my ass off at this.

00:54:38,181 --> 00:54:40,887

This is just, it's so absurd.

00:54:44,989 --> 00:54:47,409

Laura: I was so distracted

by the sexy saxophone.

00:54:47,409 --> 00:54:48,199

I missed the

00:54:48,589 --> 00:54:49,219

rocket and

00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:49,699

coming into

00:54:49,739 --> 00:54:50,059

Xhafer: this.

00:54:50,089 --> 00:54:53,009

I had to pause this, I

was laughing so much.

00:54:53,059 --> 00:54:55,209

Grab Beth, show her what had happened.

00:54:56,999 --> 00:54:57,749

It's so good.

00:54:59,269 --> 00:55:03,908

Ryan: I was laughing at the uh, the

Jessica Rabbit like silhouette that

00:55:03,918 --> 00:55:05,918

they had for Lockley in the shower.

00:55:05,918 --> 00:55:09,758

I was like, oh boy, this

is, this is, this is a lot.

00:55:09,758 --> 00:55:11,488

And hey, Babylon 5 was horny.

00:55:11,823 --> 00:55:12,383

As well.

00:55:12,423 --> 00:55:15,503

Like, we can't just blame

TNT for this either.

00:55:15,503 --> 00:55:18,343

Like, this could have

been in Babylon 5 as well.

00:55:18,353 --> 00:55:22,843

Like, we had so many

moments of weird sex stuff.

00:55:23,013 --> 00:55:27,833

You know, pleasure threshold, the

list, frictionless sheets, you know,

00:55:27,883 --> 00:55:31,333

all from all from that was like that

was all from the first episode, too.

00:55:31,813 --> 00:55:36,943

Um, so this isn't, like, truly out of

pocket, but also there's just something

00:55:36,943 --> 00:55:44,293

about it where You just know that this is

a desperate last gasp of Crusade, because

00:55:44,293 --> 00:55:50,573

they're, You, it's like, the whole entire

episode is just, Fine, here's Babylon

00:55:50,603 --> 00:55:58,893

5, here's Tracey Scoggins, Here's sex,

you know, here's, pfft, I don't know, an

00:55:58,893 --> 00:56:04,276

action scene with uh, Chambers, I guess,

you know, She can kick someone, sure, you

00:56:04,276 --> 00:56:08,156

know, she's a tall lady, she's six foot,

She's six foot tall, so let her do a kick.

00:56:08,366 --> 00:56:10,856

She was in Mortal Kombat

Annihilation, let her do some fights.

00:56:11,281 --> 00:56:11,951

Laura: She looked great.

00:56:11,951 --> 00:56:12,311

Yeah.

00:56:12,351 --> 00:56:12,681

Yeah,

00:56:13,101 --> 00:56:13,271

Ryan: Yeah.

00:56:13,271 --> 00:56:15,921

like, but this episode, like, as

much as I like it, you can tell

00:56:15,921 --> 00:56:21,841

there's like a level of like, okay,

this, you want stupid, here you go.

00:56:23,631 --> 00:56:26,201

Laura: I guess I went

stupid cuz I loved all of it

00:56:27,818 --> 00:56:28,668

except the sex

00:56:29,216 --> 00:56:30,986

Xhafer: Cynthia and Max say goodbye.

00:56:31,786 --> 00:56:35,326

Another Larkin explains that it wasn't

the religious zealotry but greed that

00:56:35,326 --> 00:56:36,896

caused them to attack the captains.

00:56:36,926 --> 00:56:38,556

They were stealing and selling tech.

00:56:38,596 --> 00:56:39,916

We've talked about this.

00:56:41,006 --> 00:56:44,046

They will allow the Excalibur to

come to test their faith against

00:56:44,046 --> 00:56:45,936

the humans extreme corruption.

00:56:46,656 --> 00:56:49,156

I do think that's a fun and

interesting idea, and I hope it

00:56:49,166 --> 00:56:52,076

would have had payoff later in the

series if they got to keep going.

00:56:52,486 --> 00:56:54,106

But I doubt it.

00:56:54,436 --> 00:56:55,586

Laura: I thought it was pretty funny.

00:56:55,586 --> 00:56:59,836

I know that like the whole, Oh, those

guys were actually the really corrupt

00:56:59,836 --> 00:57:01,486

ones and they've been so corrupted.

00:57:01,496 --> 00:57:03,366

Now we need to test

everybody else's faith.

00:57:03,366 --> 00:57:07,406

I know it's just kind of like

a whitewash over like this

00:57:07,406 --> 00:57:09,046

plot is actually not very good.

00:57:09,686 --> 00:57:12,886

But I thought it was pretty

funny, especially because he

00:57:12,886 --> 00:57:15,466

also vogues about the most holy.

00:57:15,526 --> 00:57:17,236

So love it

00:57:17,836 --> 00:57:21,476

Xhafer: after this Lockley and Gideon

talk about their fuckin but they remain

00:57:21,486 --> 00:57:25,216

married to their work, so while it was

fun, it's not gonna work long term.

00:57:26,226 --> 00:57:29,206

And Gideon's fine with keeping

it casual, he's on the same page.

00:57:29,986 --> 00:57:31,376

And so they go grab dinner.

00:57:31,772 --> 00:57:32,212

Laura: Yeah.

00:57:32,282 --> 00:57:33,402

They're going back to Arby's.

00:57:33,452 --> 00:57:33,472

Yeah.

00:57:34,501 --> 00:57:35,971

Ryan: And maybe some,

maybe something else,

00:57:35,971 --> 00:57:36,531

too, you never

00:57:36,601 --> 00:57:37,631

Xhafer: time for dessert.

00:57:37,741 --> 00:57:40,061

yeah, hint hint wink wink

nudge nudge say no more.

00:57:40,344 --> 00:57:44,164

yeah,

00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:45,730

Ryan: phrase from number one.

00:57:46,090 --> 00:57:47,090

Hey, where's number one?

00:57:47,110 --> 00:57:48,490

She should have been in this episode, too.

00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:49,830

Where, where are my friends?

00:57:49,870 --> 00:57:50,380

Where's Dr.

00:57:50,380 --> 00:57:50,900

Hobbes?

00:57:51,410 --> 00:57:52,950

Maybe she has an opinion on the virus.

00:57:53,420 --> 00:57:54,180

Um, yeah.

00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,190

Again, I liked how this

conversation was handled.

00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:01,620

After all of the absurdity of that sex

scene, I like that there was a moment of

00:58:01,620 --> 00:58:03,930

just, Hey, come here, come here Gideon.

00:58:03,930 --> 00:58:08,470

I just want to lay down the ground

rules of just like, I'm not in

00:58:08,990 --> 00:58:10,540

for a relationship right now.

00:58:10,540 --> 00:58:15,650

And the absurdity of her being like, I,

you know, I don't usually move this fast.

00:58:16,125 --> 00:58:17,785

Coming from the woman

who married Sheridan.

00:58:18,705 --> 00:58:23,315

Uh, Yeah, sure Lockley, you

really are the one who kind of

00:58:23,565 --> 00:58:26,455

just runs into relationships

without thinking about it first.

00:58:26,455 --> 00:58:27,925

Yeah, that's definitely not you.

00:58:28,035 --> 00:58:29,215

That's so not you.

00:58:29,245 --> 00:58:32,575

That was one of the most like, I

don't know if JMS is like being a

00:58:32,575 --> 00:58:35,415

little bit funny there, or if he

genuinely thinks that's Lockley.

00:58:35,525 --> 00:58:39,010

I took it as funny, I took it

as like, This is the woman who,

00:58:39,010 --> 00:58:42,430

like, thought, didn't think for

a second, and then married an

00:58:42,430 --> 00:58:43,975

idiot, and then was like, oh god,