Artwork for podcast The Operations Room: A Podcast for COO’s
91. AI in The Future of Work
Episode 91 • 12th February 2026 • The Operations Room: A Podcast for COO’s • Bethany Ayers & Brandon Mensinga
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In this episode we discuss: AI in the future of work. We are joined by Agata Nowicka, Managing Partner of the AI Visionaries Accelerator.

Love The Operations Room? Please support us by rating and reviewing it here.

We chat about the following with Agata Nowicka:

  1. Are high-growth founders underestimating the role of distribution from day one?
  2. At Series B and beyond, is your monetisation model actually aligned with value delivery?
  3. Could your onboarding and sales process be quietly eroding the value you promise?
  4. Will AI fluency soon become a non-negotiable capability in your workforce?
  5. Are you building an AI-first company — or just layering AI onto old plumbing?

References

  1. https://www.linkedin.com/in/agata-nowicka/
  2. https://femalefoundry.substack.com/
  3. https://www.aivisionaries.co/
  4. https://www.femaleinnovationindex.com/

Biography

Agata Nowicka is the Managing Partner at AI Visionaries—an AI accelerator launched with Google to scale Europe’s most innovative AI and deeptech startups. With 12 years of experience as an angel, VC investor and founder of two tech businesses in the U.S., Hong Kong, and the UK (one exit), she is also the author of the Female Innovation Index—the largest analysis of female-led innovation and funding in Europe. Agata holds an MBA from Wharton and INSEAD and is an advisor to startups and accelerators including Techstars, the University of Cambridge Founders Accelerator, and Village Capital.

To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.

Summary

39:04 – Introduction & Founder Focus Shift

42:04 – Monetisation Beyond Revenue

45:04 – Sales & Onboarding as Value Proof

48:04 – AI Fluency as a Workforce Standard

51:04 – Moving to an AI-First Model

54:05 – Business Complexity & “Plumbing”

48:20 – Resilience in High-Growth Environments

49:49 – Leadership in an AI Era

57:05 – The Future Belongs to Visionary Founders



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy

Transcripts

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Hello everyone and welcome to

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another episode of the operations

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room a podcast for CEO's I

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am Brandon mincing and joined by my

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lovely co host Bethany errors.

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How are things going this morning?

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You ask me the question every single

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time and it is a surprise half

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the time. I'm like, how am I

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doing?

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The shocking, how are you question.

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Yeah.

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It's like the softball.

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I'm like, nope, can't answer it

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today. I am fine.

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We do these on a Friday.

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I have had a true Silicon

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Valley, the TV show week

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of highs and lows.

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I don't even know you can have that

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many highs and low in one week.

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Scale up world, of course it can

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happen.

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So we had our board meeting on

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Tuesday. I was presenting some

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new ideas and a new strategy.

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It's a little bit nervous, but it

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went down well. And I'm like, oh,

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you sorted.

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Then one of

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our top engineers, I'm trying to

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decide whether or not I can share

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it. I think it's resigned, and so

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then I'm like plummeted

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down, like, no.

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Yeah, your team is small, key

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developer out of the picture, that's

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gonna, yeah, hurt your progress.

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Well, I mean, some of it is hurting

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progress, and he is a very

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good developer and technically very

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able, but it's also like,

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I really like working with him,

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embodies the values,

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a little bit older, you

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know, I think I've mentioned this

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before that I just feel so old and

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so uncool at the company.

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And so it's nice to have a couple

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allies who are on the other side of

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40 with me.

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Yeah, so I can't go into all of the

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highs and lows, but It was just like

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that the whole week, and then

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ended on a relative.

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Hi, and our show and tell had

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a demo of the new expansion product

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we're looking at.

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In general, the product's moving

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quickly, really cool advances.

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And then get home

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to remember that I had a different,

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I was a guest on a podcast between

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seven and eight last night.

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And so I just had to dig deep.

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I know seven to eight doesn't sound

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that late, but after the week I had,

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it was like the last thing in the

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world I wanted to do.

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I would have paid money to not go on

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a pod cast.

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You're like, why did I book this?

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I do that all the time in my head.

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I'm like, do I really wanna have

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this conversation with this person

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I'm having right now? I booked it,

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so it's my fault, but yeah.

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Yeah, so I think how I'm

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doing is just, I'm so happy it's

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the weekend.

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Okay, so Silicon Valley TV

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show, any absurdities this week?

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Sometimes in this scale up, kind of

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ups and downs, there's just silly

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things that happen that are either

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tragically bad and really they're so

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bad, they're kind of humorous in a

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way, or they're so weirdly awesome.

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You're like, how, this is

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ridiculous.

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Any of that.

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This is the problem, I was thinking

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about this last night, is we

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used to be able to share so much

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more when we weren't working,

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and now we're working.

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We can't be as open.

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Like, ask me that question in three

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years' time, and I'll be able answer

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it, but I can't answer it today.

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Yeah, it's funny because this whole

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idea of the building out loud,

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building in front of people where

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people are doing blogs and talks

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around the machinations of their

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company, realistically I don't know

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how you can really do that because

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at the end of the day, the internal

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stuff, there's a fair amount of

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sensitivities just in terms of

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either people, twos and fros or

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challenges that are directly related

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to the individuals that you work

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with that if you share it, I mean,

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it will come back to bite you,

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there is like no question of that.

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Yeah, and it's all just very real

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time. I think sometimes you need a

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bit of perspective as well.

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Yeah. And not definitely not live

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blog deep in the fields.

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I had a lot of fields this week, but

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I I'm back on a even keel.

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I spend most of my time as

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a CEO using all

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of the nervous

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system regulation skills

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I have built and developed

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over the years.

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All the reservoir.

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Cheers!

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Really don't know how I

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would have done this pre those

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skills.

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I think I'd be an alcoholic.

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I think as soon as you put three

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people in a room together, you have

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people issues.

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And I do find people issues more

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stressful than business

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issues. And I react to them more.

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And so there's just like a huge

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amount of time that I'm spent like

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breathing deeply, going for

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walks, shaking it off.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you can

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get consumed by it time-wise and

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mind-share-wise.

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I mean, this is almost the trick of

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the trade, I think, for scale-ups

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because the business focus

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of getting stuff done and executing

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and winning new business and

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progress with the product and all

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that, the self-inflicted wounds in

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all these companies by far that

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consume so much time and energy and

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diverts yourself is all that stuff.

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All the people problems.

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And if you get sucked into it,

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issues with people or you take

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it too personally, You lose

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hours which mountain to days

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and You know, if you're losing time,

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I guarantee you the others are

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losing similar capacity in terms of

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their mind share.

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So it's just like a huge distraction

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that hopefully with

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experience you can kind of like

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ensure for the most part for

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yourself and hopefully for others

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around you, somehow you can make

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sure people are focused on the right

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to actual things here.

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Just don't know if it's possible.

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I think it's possible to insulate

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yourself from

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outside of the leadership team, but

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even the leadership team dynamics,

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they just come in.

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So I was talking to Ryan,

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one of our previous guests,

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about some of the stuff that was

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going on, and he was

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a previous CEO of the company

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that was sold to Microsoft.

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And he was saying that he was

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talking to one of his advisors,

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who's super senior, deals with

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like top 10.

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CEOs of the top 10 businesses

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in the world kind of level.

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And then we talked to Ryan and Ryan

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be like, oh, the leadership team,

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this, that, this person's resigned,

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that's happened, oh, this stressful.

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And like, I would just laugh and

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be like the last call I had with,

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you know, whoever massive company

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was CEO was exactly

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the same.

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Like, it always comes down to

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personalities, the best leadership

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team.

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People who are growing, people on

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the ascent, people of the decline.

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And just balancing it all the time.

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Yeah, I suppose in that way, it's

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very much undervalued, the

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intangible of the chemistry in

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particular of the leadership team.

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Do you actually have chemistry where

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there really is like a complementary

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synergistic effect and there's

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a minimum amount of

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politicking or issues or

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problem related, people related

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problems and so on where the team

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works well together, they enjoy

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working together and they know how

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to work together.

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You know, and I think that

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intentional piece.

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And I was just thinking about this

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in terms of our company, we've

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got a bit of a leadership reset

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because one of the co-founders is

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kind of spinning off in a slightly

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different direction.

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We've had a maternity leave for the

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CRO, we have some other individuals

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that are now in play from a

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seniority perspective that need to

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be I think part of leadership in

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some capacity. So that what I'm

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cognizant of is we had good

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chemistry, good momentum, we

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understood how to work together

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quite well. So this reset,

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I'm just vaguely concerned that

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somehow...

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What we had built is going to,

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I mean, it's gonna be different

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regardless, but we're not gonna be

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able to reinvigorate it

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and have the same feeling.

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I'm not going through a reset, but

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we also, on top of all these other

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things this week, it's the second

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week of our sales and marketing

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leaders, and so bigger leadership

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team settling everybody in.

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I have not spent enough time with

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them because I was prepping for the

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board meeting and then dealing with

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this other stuff, so I already

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know that I'm no following any of my

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own advice behind the curve.

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I was on the podcast last night

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feeling like an utter hypocrite,

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which is like, when you hire

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somebody who is experienced

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and you think they're great.

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Don't just bring them into the

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business and then walk away and

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like, okay, you're in charge now,

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like spend time, really

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align, be clear on your

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joint objectives and understandings

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and really make sure your values

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are aligned. I have done none of

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that. I brought them into the

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business, pointed them at problems

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and said, off you pop.

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And I have to get back to being

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a good leader.

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Also, they just, what I have managed

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to do is like the ways

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that I like to work that I hadn't

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articulated to them so then they

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don't know.

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And then I have to like, oh, by the

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way, like they were doing a lot

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of DMs.

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So like me plus two people or me

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plus one person or particularly

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because they're all like different

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combinations of the leadership team.

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So I had to finally just say, just

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send it to the leadership Team.

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It's good for everybody have

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context, even if they're not

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interested and they might not read

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it but they can scan it and

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let's have as much open

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communication as possible.

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Like there weren't things that were

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sensitive.

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But if I think about as a new

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person, you don't really know, you

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don't know what the culture is.

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You don't want to blast people with

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spam.

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It's just so much better than these

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like little tiny fiefdoms or like

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pockets of information and then

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you're trying to remember who

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knows what. Assume you know it.

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Oh, for whatever reason you weren't

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in that chat. Yeah, I hate that.

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It just slows this down.

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That's how I'm doing for question

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number one of today.

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Well, I will say that so you look

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like you're in good shape because

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some of the calls we've had

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recently, you did not look your

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best.

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Just in terms of not physically, I

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could tell you were tired and a

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little angsty, whereas today you

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look and feel kind of

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back to the Bethany that I'm used

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to.

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Yeah, I think it's just so we ended

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up other we ended up with a roller

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coaster on an upward trajectory

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on Thursday.

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So really, other than just the

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exhaustion of doing the podcast,

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like I think I've I'm in a good

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place right now.

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So let's see what today brings.

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It could be very different by the

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end of the day.

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Yeah, you never know.

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Well, it is Friday and you're

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working from home today as I am as

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well. So I feel like today's like a

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solid catch-up day on things that I

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need to be attending to that I've

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ignored for the past 24, 48 hours.

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Just before we got on the podcast, I

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was just mentioning two things.

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So one is yesterday,

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I had a massive

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headache by midday and

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it just got worse over the course of

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the afternoon and we have

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leadership in the afternoon.

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And I kind of, I had not.

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Pulled my stuff together quite yet

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for pre-reads, so it was quite late,

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so I'm kind of getting the pre-reads

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done for two things related to

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option grants and something else,

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eventually distributed it by noon.

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At that point, I was not feeling

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great, and the heading

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was killing me at that point.

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Distributed the docs, went into

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leadership, and I kind of own

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leadership in terms of running it

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effectively. So it wasn't my

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best showcase, I would say, in terms

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running that hour 45 block.

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And at the outset, there were some

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angst related to some recent issues

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related to execution on.

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Of OKRs and so on.

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So it was a bit angsty just overall

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at the beginning and I don't think I

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managed it as well as I probably

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should have.

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And then it was compounded by after

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that we had due diligence report

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that had come back from the investor

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for the latest round.

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And it's fascinating the

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observations that a third party

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has on you where they've done kind

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of like a McKinsey style job to kind

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of dissect the business from an

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external point of view in terms of,

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you know, how are we doing?

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How do they perceive us?

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What's our score So that was

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fascinating to go through with the

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group. We're all sitting around the

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table, throwing in our viewpoints

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and so on, and I can feel myself.

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I had a couple good ones, I thought,

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in terms of observations on the due

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diligence thing, but in terms to

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being able to articulate it, you're

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just like, oh my God, what am I

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trying to say here?

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So it was not my best showcase,

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so I'm just thinking at the end of

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it, as you have pointed out many

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times in the past on this podcast, I

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need to catch myself in these

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situations earlier and just say,

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look, it's not helpful to anyone to

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have and go into a session.

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And just like ramble on about stuff

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that is not clear basically,

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whether it's a leadership or in this

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kind of other session and just pack

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it in, admit defeat,

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go home.

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So that's my lesson

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learned I think from yesterday.

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So, actually something else of

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interest here, we had our strategy

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days, team days as we call them,

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last week on Thursday and Friday.

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So we ran our survey this week in

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terms of results, good report card,

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printers across the board, everyone

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enjoyed it and just good feedback

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all around I would say.

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The interesting bet, two interesting

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bets, one is the

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survey results, we'd asked which

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piece of content, if you had a stack

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rank the content over day one,

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day two, what was the most valuable

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piece of content.

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And what came back may not be

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surprising to you, but it was sort

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of surprising to me, but the

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most valuable session was the AI

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upscaling on day two, and

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we had three tracks, as I mentioned

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before, Charlie Kamen on

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ChatGBT, we had two others on

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Cursor, more for the engineers and

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in Cloud Code, and one other

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for more of like non-developers

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on the livable side of things.

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The quality of those tracks, as we

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know Charlie's fantastic at what he

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does. The other two were not

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perceived as high quality.

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Despite the concerns around the

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quality levels on tracks two and

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three, it was still considered to be

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the most valuable thing for the

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company. I think the macro point is

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people are really keen to

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get better at this stuff, basically.

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And then we asked another question

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in the survey, you know, what is

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your interest level and more AI

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up-skilling and more challenges

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and so on.

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And right across the board, it's

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either extremely interested or

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very interested. I think there is.

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A lot of enthusiasm and desire

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and appetite to do more of this

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stuff and have the time and space to

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actually do it.

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Ha ha!

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Awesome. I have like a little I told

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you so dance going on in my head.

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Yeah, but I appreciate it because I

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think all our previous conversations

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kind of led me to doing

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this in the way that I did it

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tonight. And for sure, we're going

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to have some level of ongoing

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activity, I just can't, I'm not

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quite clear right now as to what

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exactly I'm going to do.

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Well, so the thing that I really

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need to do, know I need to do, and

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again, in terms of like, not

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following my own advice, but

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have to really find the time to

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follow my own advise, is management

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training for everybody, particularly

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the engineers, because at this

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point, I think there's like little

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bits of new

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technology, new techniques, you can

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always learn somebody else has

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figured out a cool way of using the

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tech, but that's not going

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to make the biggest difference for

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the engineers.

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At this point, the biggest

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difference would be leadership

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skills, not leadership skills

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management skills.

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So what do you delegate?

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What, how do you parse up work in

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bite size chunks that

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an agent is

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equivalent to a human?

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How do you provide enough context,

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getting comfortable with slowing

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down to speed up, holding

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the agent to account rather than

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just being like, oh, whatever, I'll

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do it myself. And I

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know I need to teach these skills.

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But I have just not gotten to the

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point of like building the

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framework.

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I have 20 odd

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years of management experience

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and it just becomes second nature.

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And so I'm gonna have to think about

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which books did I read?

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Which frameworks do I use?

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What is the process that I actually

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go through? Which is now intuitive

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in order to break it down for the

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teams. And I just haven't had time

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to do it yet but I absolutely have

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to.

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Yeah. And do you think there's a

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special twist on this whereby we're

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not just talking about managing

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other people now, we're talking

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about managing agents.

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So therefore, because I mean, we

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describe is every

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company's problem on the planet,

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which is how do we make sure

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managers are highly effective.

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So do you think there is something

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fresher to be done in terms of the

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agent twist?

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I don't know if there's a fresher to

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be done for the agent twist, but it

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just means you have to go down a

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layer on management.

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And also you're asking people

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who are newer in their careers and

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have not been managed themselves

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very much. Because I think part of

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it is that by the time you become a

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manager, you've seen what works and

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doesn't work with your own.

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Whereas if you've only been in your

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career for two to five

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years or whatever, you're not always

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thinking about how have I been

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managed and how do I do it.

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And it's also really separating

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the management skills from the

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leadership skills.

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Like you don't need to motivate

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the agents.

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Come on, agentic person

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A, get moving.

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But what you do need to have, which

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I guess is leadership, is the

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ability to communicate a vision and

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what your output you're looking for

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is. And I don't know, is that a

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management skill? Is that a

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leadership skill?

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I put a bit more in leadership.

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So that's what we need because

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everybody is a manager.

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And the more effective manager you

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are, the more affective you are

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using AI.

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And I'm just hobbling the

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team by not really spending

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a lot of time with them to have that

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mind shift on how you manage.

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Yeah. So I think this is a twist

Speaker:

because what we're saying is every

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single person in the company,

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regardless of your role, whether

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you're a product marketing manager

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or anybody else, you are a manager,

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flat out. So whether you have one

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year's experience, 20 years

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experience, you're manager.

Speaker:

So therefore we need to level set

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across everyone in terms of how to

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manage.

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Well, I think the parts, going

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back to earlier in our conversation,

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the hardest parts of management

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and leadership are the people and

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the egos and the feelings.

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And you actually start to deal with

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that with agents.

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All give what I think are good

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instructions, lots of context,

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go for a plan.

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And then it just like starts doing

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something weird.

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And with a human, I would have to

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say, that's an interesting take.

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Click. Walk me through your

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thinking. How did we get here?

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I'm not quite sure this is where,

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you know, whereas with Claude,

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I'm just like, stop.

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Why are you doing this?

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I wanted you to do X.

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You're doing Y.

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Don't do Y.

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Do X.

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These reasons this way.

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It's quite freeing.

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I was thinking last night, I wonder

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how all this interaction

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with AI is going to affect

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the way that we interact with each

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other as humans.

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And I wonder if there is gonna be a

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level of bluntness that comes out

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because you spend all your day

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being so blunt with a machine that

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it starts to become a habit.

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Yeah, for sure. Or I could go the

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reverse, where we just lose our

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skills entirely of how to talk to

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people properly, and it ends up

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being softly, softly.

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Yeah, so good to hear that the

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training went well, it was well

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received.

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Charlie is he's just a gifted

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trainer at the enthusiasm

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level.

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And also just very clear, he's a

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great storyteller and he

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knows how to balance the variables

Speaker:

of storytelling versus like trying

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to get us to understand key bits we

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need to understand within a compact

Speaker:

two and a half hour time frame

Speaker:

because that's always the balance a

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little bit between too much

Speaker:

fluff versus like the concrete piece

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of it. Two things of interest

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actually, so the one showcase that

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we did at the end of the day was

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fabulous.

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So for our company as we're scaling

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up. We are going to be hiring quite

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a few engineers.

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And when you do engineering

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interviewing, there's always the

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task phase. And the task face

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requires a senior developer

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to look at the task as part of that

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interview process and assess that

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task and whether that task

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has been well done or it's not been

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well done. And it's a key criteria

Speaker:

by which we discard candidates.

Speaker:

So the time consumption for a senior

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developer due to this activity is

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enormous.

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And then compound that by the number

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of engineers, the number candidates

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are gonna be flowing through our

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pipeline over the next 12 months.

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Huge time consumption, huge suck.

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Very concerning for us as a company

Speaker:

just in terms of our kind of time

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allocation.

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The AI output that we produced

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and that we showcased was

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automating that, whereby the task

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comes in and it's assessed, it's

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either a pass or it's a fail.

Speaker:

That there's a bit of a gray zone

Speaker:

right now that we've left in.

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Whereby a developer needs to look at

Speaker:

that if it goes into that gray zone

Speaker:

in the middle band where the

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developer needs to just do the

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finite assessment.

Speaker:

But on balance, the production

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of whatever we produce that day

Speaker:

basically works.

Speaker:

So now the thought process is

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we'll run it across all the tasks,

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we'll get the developer at least for

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the initial time period to do the

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same thing they would normally do,

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compare the outputs and just make

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sure the feedback is going into the

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agent to optimize it to make it

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on balance kind of where it needs to

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be. Once we're in that state, then

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we can use it wholesale across all

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the tasks that are coming through

Speaker:

for the engineering.

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So you've built yourself a

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engineering recruiter.

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Or at least automating one component

Speaker:

of the process.

Speaker:

What I also love with AI is there

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are many more ship-it days and many

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fewer hackathons, so

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things can get into production.

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And I was actually thinking about

Speaker:

this because every person that I

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spoke to called that day something

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different.

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We're like, we're having a hackathon.

Speaker:

We're having, you know what I mean? There was

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various phrasings used around

Speaker:

the day itself and I was thinking

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about this afterwards.

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We probably need to like position

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this a little more clearly as to

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what we're doing here because to

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your point, I don't think this is

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really a hack-a-thon and we're like

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squashing bugs over the day or

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whatever.

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We're really producing artifacts

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or outputs that are usable in

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some form, if not a form

Speaker:

like I just described where it's

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legit and we can actually use it

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going forward. That's really the

Speaker:

purpose of these days.

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So making that more clear somehow to

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the group seemed like a useful thing

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to do.

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Yeah. So we're doing

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our Charlie days next

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week.

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There's definitely some themes in

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today's podcast. So there's another

Speaker:

theme in that after we did the

Speaker:

training last time,

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one of the clear takeaways was it's

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too much to do general training in

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the morning and specific training

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for engineers in the afternoon.

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Guess what we're in this time.

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Oh dear, what?

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100% the same thing.

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So we're general training in the

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morning, specific training

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for the engineers in the afternoon.

Speaker:

And then that's all Monday.

Speaker:

And then Tuesday is

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a building day.

Speaker:

And so on the

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non-technical teams will be

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automating as much as they can.

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We have been compiling a

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notion list of all of our

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use case requests.

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So Charlie has access to it as well.

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He can see what we want to automate.

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Every time we have an idea, we stick

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it on that paper.

Speaker:

And then on Tuesday, whatever we

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haven't done on Monday

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as part of the training, the team

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will do on Tuesday.

Speaker:

And then for engineering, it's

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a slow down to speed up day.

Speaker:

And so building a lot of the

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foundations that we know we need to

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put in place.

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Almost exactly like the management

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stuff. So like, this is the way we

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code. These are the, you know, just

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giving way more context and rules

Speaker:

so that we can move to asynchronous

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coding.

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And that's the goal is at the end of

Speaker:

the second day, we

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have entered into the world of

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asynchronous coding

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Okay, yeah, that's amazing.

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So coding that is happening when

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people are not there.

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People are asleep who wake

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up in the morning to new new

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product.

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Yeah, yeah, that's super cool.

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The other interesting little

Speaker:

anecdote coming out of our one was

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we had one of our, I

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think it was the VP of AI, so one of

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out senior, kind of like

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executable of persons, highly

Speaker:

talented in the AI space, he took

Speaker:

on the GTM challenge of enrichment

Speaker:

of our accounts and

Speaker:

put together a really fascinating

Speaker:

demo that did some amazing

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things.

Speaker:

However, his recommendation at the

Speaker:

end of that enrichment exercise was

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go license clay.

Speaker:

So it's just interesting how you

Speaker:

can get to a certain level with some

Speaker:

of these artifacts, but there's a

Speaker:

bit of a recognition sometimes.

Speaker:

There is a reason why companies

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exist on top of open AI,

Speaker:

which is to provide verticalized

Speaker:

solutions that are easy to use, that

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provide a comprehensive set of

Speaker:

outputs whereby it solves the

Speaker:

problem wholesale, which in this

Speaker:

case is enrichment.

Speaker:

So he felt we had done a

Speaker:

good job on a very specific siloed

Speaker:

strand of enrichment, But was a

Speaker:

broader problem to be solved with

Speaker:

enrichment and also just purely from

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a usability standpoint having

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a tool that is just more integrated

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with stuff effectively.

Speaker:

So that was an interesting outcome.

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All right, so we've got a great

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topic for today, which is AI in the

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Future of Work.

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We have an amazing guest for this,

Speaker:

which Agatha Nowika.

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She's the Managing Director of AI

Speaker:

Visionaries in partnership with

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Google Cloud.

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So before we get to Agatha,

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a couple of questions for you.

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The first one is, what are the

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skills that matter

Speaker:

for the next generation of

Speaker:

employees?

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And I was thinking about this

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specifically in the context of, for

Speaker:

myself, we are looking

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at our job descriptions.

Speaker:

There's a clear recognition in our

Speaker:

job descriptions that people

Speaker:

will be using AI to respond

Speaker:

to our job description in terms of

Speaker:

prepping for their interviews, for

Speaker:

the screening calls, for sure, for

Speaker:

the tasks that we're going to

Speaker:

provide and so on.

Speaker:

So then it got me and our head of

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talent thinking in terms how to

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set up the tasks and the

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questions that we were asking to

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really talk about much more of these

Speaker:

skills for the next generation

Speaker:

of human qualities of

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trade-offs, judgment and

Speaker:

so on and kind of the more this like

Speaker:

system level thinking and the

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analysis part of it and walking

Speaker:

through crisply like how

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they think about solving problems

Speaker:

to gear up our talent

Speaker:

function to address that more

Speaker:

directly.

Speaker:

So my question to you is skills

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that matter for the next generation,

Speaker:

what's your take on this?

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I've been thinking a lot about it.

Speaker:

There was an episode

Speaker:

of the AI Daily

Speaker:

Brief podcast that I listen to

Speaker:

every day, and it

Speaker:

was one of these where they

Speaker:

were looking at KPMG surveys and

Speaker:

this survey and that survey.

Speaker:

It was a survey day of insights

Speaker:

coming out.

Speaker:

One of the things — it wasn't

Speaker:

actually so much the surveys now,

Speaker:

but how rapidly things are

Speaker:

moving and in

Speaker:

X number of years, one year,

Speaker:

maybe up to five years.

Speaker:

Execution will no longer be the

Speaker:

bottleneck.

Speaker:

And to think about that,

Speaker:

like you can say it, but then you

Speaker:

actually have to think and just

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imagine like, you know, if we do get

Speaker:

to this point of asynchronous

Speaker:

coding, coding agents are

Speaker:

really good.

Speaker:

Anybody can build whatever product

Speaker:

as quickly as they want.

Speaker:

What is the role of humans?

Speaker:

And what is your competitive

Speaker:

advantage? And how do you still grow

Speaker:

a business?

Speaker:

Because our entire lives

Speaker:

have been about leaders.

Speaker:

It's ultimately.

Speaker:

Allocation of resource and

Speaker:

getting shit done.

Speaker:

In some ways, we're going to have

Speaker:

unlimited resource.

Speaker:

Allocation of resource is going to

Speaker:

be a whole lot less important

Speaker:

because you don't have to hire a

Speaker:

bunch of people.

Speaker:

You can just do so much more.

Speaker:

This is a bit like, I can't remember

Speaker:

her name, the woman that we

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interviewed from NYU around

Speaker:

the coaching.

Speaker:

She was talking about this a bit.

Speaker:

I had a first glimmer of

Speaker:

what's

Speaker:

it going to list on.

Speaker:

And therefore, what are the skills

Speaker:

that you need? And I think what

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you're talking about is right,

Speaker:

Brandon. It's taste, it's

Speaker:

judgment, it it's

Speaker:

harder problem solving.

Speaker:

It's having vision and understanding

Speaker:

where you want to go and why.

Speaker:

And then rallying your

Speaker:

agents to do that either

Speaker:

within an organization or

Speaker:

as a single person.

Speaker:

Some of the people issues I had this

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week, I was like, Oh, fuck it.

Speaker:

Like, why can't I just do my own

Speaker:

business of one?

Speaker:

And like, are we all just going to

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be businesses of one and then

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we go and hang out in the pub, you

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know, with people in the evenings

Speaker:

have nothing to do with our

Speaker:

businesses.

Speaker:

But yeah, I think it's that I'm

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worried about what are

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the impacts to humanity,

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because

Speaker:

people who have those skills and can

Speaker:

rise to the top, it's going

Speaker:

to be unbelievable.

Speaker:

But for people who

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don't, or you know that's not

Speaker:

their passion, or they were quite

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happy.

Speaker:

Entering data all day long and then

Speaker:

going home and running the marathons

Speaker:

or whatever like it's going to be.

Speaker:

Hard if you don't care i

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don't think this would be any quiet

Speaker:

quitting the other point that i

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thought when you're talking about

Speaker:

everybody's gonna use a for their

Speaker:

tasks is good.

Speaker:

What's you don t be worried about

Speaker:

but what it gives you an

Speaker:

opportunity is to see how good

Speaker:

they are day i so if it

Speaker:

sounds good in the first reading and

Speaker:

then you realize it says nothing

Speaker:

it's slow.

Speaker:

It's polished nothingness.

Speaker:

They've helped you filter them out.

Speaker:

So I wouldn't worry so much about if

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they're using AI or not, I would

Speaker:

worry about the quality of the work

Speaker:

that they're putting in front of

Speaker:

you.

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Yes, yes.

Speaker:

I think this is exactly on point.

Speaker:

I mean, you can see it.

Speaker:

I can see it all the time now in

Speaker:

terms of documents that are created

Speaker:

using chat gbt or you know

Speaker:

the gemini or whatever.

Speaker:

It's usually pretty clear.

Speaker:

There's a lot of if you glance

Speaker:

at it, it sometimes looks perfectly

Speaker:

fine but we actually read it

Speaker:

properly around our situation, our

Speaker:

problems.

Speaker:

It's missing a bunch of stuff and

Speaker:

there's a genericness to it.

Speaker:

And even for myself the other day

Speaker:

and this is where there's a bit of

Speaker:

like a weird balance happening now

Speaker:

or rebalancing my mind around how to

Speaker:

use this stuff effectively because

Speaker:

As we all do, I use it very much to

Speaker:

create what I would have done much,

Speaker:

much faster where using

Speaker:

my prompts and various kind of

Speaker:

existing materials, dump it all into

Speaker:

the mixer of chat GBT,

Speaker:

add in a bunch of prompts to kind of

Speaker:

restructure things and so on.

Speaker:

But when it does like its little

Speaker:

reworking bit, sometimes it

Speaker:

rewords things in ways that are

Speaker:

like, you miss it.

Speaker:

Just one example from yesterday

Speaker:

where everything was like,

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great, the document was good, it was

Speaker:

robust, this is the option grant

Speaker:

thing. There's just one statement

Speaker:

around.

Speaker:

Exception handling for giving

Speaker:

more options than our

Speaker:

table defines for a given role type

Speaker:

based on exceptions that occur and

Speaker:

thereby it's escalated to the CEO

Speaker:

and had some examples of escalation,

Speaker:

things that would justify an

Speaker:

escalation basically.

Speaker:

So something the wording was a

Speaker:

verified competing offer constituted

Speaker:

an ability to escalate.

Speaker:

And I'm like, a verified compete

Speaker:

offer, that's never going to happen.

Speaker:

Like, so I missed it.

Speaker:

And somebody in the meeting called

Speaker:

it out, not in a bad way, but just

Speaker:

like, well, Brandon, what do you

Speaker:

mean by verify competing offer?

Speaker:

I'm like, oh, chat GPT

Speaker:

slop. Sorry.

Speaker:

That's my mistake.

Speaker:

Yeah, and I do find that that's

Speaker:

something you really have to fight

Speaker:

with it. It loves his adjectives

Speaker:

and it loves his adverbs and

Speaker:

it just throws them in

Speaker:

unnecessarily and I'm constantly

Speaker:

stripping them out.

Speaker:

We don't need this.

Speaker:

And then also likes to say the same

Speaker:

thing three or four different times.

Speaker:

And then I have to explain to it.

Speaker:

You've said it once.

Speaker:

These next three sentences are

Speaker:

pointless.

Speaker:

Take them out.

Speaker:

And then it goes, you're absolutely

Speaker:

right.

Speaker:

That's a good catch.

Speaker:

I was like, I don't to know that.

Speaker:

Thank you. Like just take it out.

Speaker:

All right, love that.

Speaker:

Question number two, are COOs

Speaker:

treating AI as an incremental

Speaker:

efficiency tool or properly

Speaker:

using it as a survival level

Speaker:

strategic shift?

Speaker:

Well, so we recorded this a while

Speaker:

ago where it was probably more

Speaker:

a efficiency

Speaker:

tool, but I think it's

Speaker:

all moving so quickly that there's a

Speaker:

recognition around the survival

Speaker:

shift. I think we're just on that

Speaker:

cusp of moving to survival.

Speaker:

Have you played with cloud code yet?

Speaker:

I mean, I have, but not recently.

Speaker:

I've been focusing on my Charlie

Speaker:

Cowan training around GPT.

Speaker:

So I'm just in the process

Speaker:

of starting to play around with

Speaker:

cloud code, mostly because

Speaker:

ironically, co-work came out as

Speaker:

like the non-technical

Speaker:

version of cloud code, because I've

Speaker:

seen Charlie was talking about

Speaker:

cloud code and everything he was

Speaker:

doing with it in October.

Speaker:

And I was like, Oh my God.

Speaker:

So they've actually made an agent

Speaker:

framework that seems to work better

Speaker:

than any other framework, but

Speaker:

then I was, like, oh, it's terminals

Speaker:

and it's hard and blah, blah, I'm

Speaker:

afraid of it.

Speaker:

And for whatever reason,

Speaker:

co-work.

Speaker:

Everybody I know who's non-technical

Speaker:

who uses Claude code, tried co-work

Speaker:

is like, there's no point using it.

Speaker:

It's so limited.

Speaker:

It's nothing like Claude Code.

Speaker:

Just like put on your big girl pants

Speaker:

and get on with it.

Speaker:

And so, okay,

Speaker:

fine. I'm going to learn how to, how

Speaker:

to do everything in Terminal.

Speaker:

And I'm not suggesting everybody

Speaker:

goes and does it, but it's

Speaker:

the best

Speaker:

experience of the future.

Speaker:

And the question is how soon is

Speaker:

this future going to come?

Speaker:

And I'm answering your question

Speaker:

in a roundabout way, but I feel like

Speaker:

if you're running the

Speaker:

transformation in your business

Speaker:

and you're making sure that we're

Speaker:

getting all of the best

Speaker:

strategic changes, like the

Speaker:

collapsing of systems,

Speaker:

you don't wanna just automate the

Speaker:

existing systems, your businesses

Speaker:

are gonna restructure,

Speaker:

processes are gonna fundamentally

Speaker:

change. As a COO.

Speaker:

You need to be leading from

Speaker:

the front and really understanding

Speaker:

it intuitively yourself.

Speaker:

And the only way to do that is to

Speaker:

become a super user, regardless

Speaker:

of company size.

Speaker:

Because otherwise, if you don't

Speaker:

understand the limit and how it

Speaker:

works and the changes in your

Speaker:

brain you have to make and how

Speaker:

you're speeding up your life,

Speaker:

how are you able to have the

Speaker:

credibility and force

Speaker:

the other people?

Speaker:

How do you know what to call

Speaker:

bullshit?

Speaker:

How do know when to inspire?

Speaker:

And how do you know how to create

Speaker:

your vision?

Speaker:

So I agree with you a thousand

Speaker:

percent on this front.

Speaker:

And it's a bit of like the jagged

Speaker:

frontier that Charlie had talked

Speaker:

about. You have to be on that line

Speaker:

of using not just ChatJBT,

Speaker:

but a variety of tools to see where

Speaker:

this frontier lies a little bit

Speaker:

and be using it aggressively

Speaker:

yourself in ways that

Speaker:

in the CEO capacity would be using

Speaker:

it into your point leading from the

Speaker:

front in this respect, I think

Speaker:

matters quite a bit.

Speaker:

But I think I've come to two

Speaker:

thoughts now, which is, you know,

Speaker:

previously, I'm gonna try to

Speaker:

describe this exactly, but like,

Speaker:

There's so much hyperbole around the

Speaker:

AI stuff that's going to change our

Speaker:

lives, change our jobs, and so on.

Speaker:

And the reality right now, for most

Speaker:

companies and most people, is this

Speaker:

more efficiency orientation or

Speaker:

assistance orientation to do what

Speaker:

we were just talking about before,

Speaker:

which is create better documents

Speaker:

faster for different purposes,

Speaker:

and that definitely is great

Speaker:

and we're all kind of there.

Speaker:

This question of this next step a

Speaker:

little bit really is this shifting

Speaker:

of the mindset.

Speaker:

Into survival and being much more

Speaker:

aggressive around going from

Speaker:

assistant to really more wholesale

Speaker:

reworking of flows within the

Speaker:

company, including yourself, and

Speaker:

that we're on the precipice of this

Speaker:

really starting to happen in a much

Speaker:

more agressive form, I guess, with

Speaker:

the tools that are getting a little

Speaker:

more mature to enable and to allow

Speaker:

it to occur, hence your terminal

Speaker:

point in this case.

Speaker:

So I kind of feel this year is

Speaker:

the year and there is a survival

Speaker:

element to it and You know,

Speaker:

this whole kickoff that you and I

Speaker:

have both done in our companies

Speaker:

right now, I can feel it within the

Speaker:

companies, too. Everyone's kind of

Speaker:

geared up a little bit.

Speaker:

So I think this is the year I

Speaker:

need to lead from the front.

Speaker:

In my business,

Speaker:

in the entire interview process, I

Speaker:

talk about becoming an AI native

Speaker:

company, what this means,

Speaker:

fundamental changing process,

Speaker:

embracing technology, getting there.

Speaker:

And then we're

Speaker:

just rounding out our budgets

Speaker:

and everybody's come to me with a

Speaker:

budget, that's the old playbook.

Speaker:

And I was just like, no, we are not

Speaker:

in the old playbook, you're just

Speaker:

rolling out what you know and you're

Speaker:

rolling out what you're comfortable

Speaker:

with, go again.

Speaker:

Where your it requirements

Speaker:

your where your requirements.

Speaker:

What are the new skills that you

Speaker:

need in your teams?

Speaker:

The only area where I have

Speaker:

a little bit more leeway of

Speaker:

maybe the old playbook is in

Speaker:

sales because although

Speaker:

I've been thinking about this, like

Speaker:

with engineering, we're gonna be

Speaker:

able to get 10X out of one engineer

Speaker:

and one engineer will be able to do

Speaker:

the equivalent of 10.

Speaker:

In go-to-market,

Speaker:

I don't like let's say

Speaker:

your AEs right now

Speaker:

have a million dollar target.

Speaker:

I don't think efficiency is

Speaker:

going to mean that they can have a

Speaker:

$10 million target anytime

Speaker:

soon. Even if they're not having to

Speaker:

fill in HubSpot and things are

Speaker:

automated for them and they don't

Speaker:

have to do a lot of follow-up

Speaker:

emails, they still

Speaker:

can do a maximum

Speaker:

of eight meetings a day.

Speaker:

I don't even know if you could do

Speaker:

that because you need a little bit

Speaker:

of thinking time in between them.

Speaker:

You need to build rapport.

Speaker:

You need think through

Speaker:

opportunities.

Speaker:

So, I think sales

Speaker:

is like a fairly safe.

Speaker:

Bet for a new career, you

Speaker:

know, a career where there's not

Speaker:

going to see the same level of

Speaker:

headcount cuts as other areas,

Speaker:

because until agents buy from

Speaker:

agents, people still buy from

Speaker:

people. I think there will be a

Speaker:

point where there is going to be an

Speaker:

agent buying from agent process

Speaker:

as well.

Speaker:

That, for me, is going be a little

Speaker:

bit slower than some of the other

Speaker:

stuff.

Speaker:

Yeah, for sure. But do you not think

Speaker:

all the administration that a sales

Speaker:

rep does today, all that's going to

Speaker:

go away? So let's say they spend, I

Speaker:

don't know, 30% of their time

Speaker:

filling in HubSpot and doing crap,

Speaker:

basically, that the 30% will be

Speaker:

time back, thereby giving them more

Speaker:

capacity to sign more deals.

Speaker:

Yeah, so maybe they can go from one

Speaker:

million to one and a half million to

Speaker:

two, but I don't see that their

Speaker:

quote is going to go to 10.

Speaker:

And so you're fundamentally still

Speaker:

just going, you're not going to see

Speaker:

the same, until agents start buying

Speaker:

from agents, you are not going see

Speaker:

the efficiency gains in

Speaker:

actual quota carrying reps as you

Speaker:

are the rest of the organization.

Speaker:

Yeah, I mean, you maybe just think

Speaker:

of something. If we look at

Speaker:

developers more specifically, the

Speaker:

impact there to your point, I think

Speaker:

is probably far greater in terms of

Speaker:

our capacity and throughput in terms

Speaker:

getting stuff done.

Speaker:

And if that's the case, then the

Speaker:

ratio of engineer to

Speaker:

designer to product manager in a

Speaker:

squad, I think that ratio changes

Speaker:

quite dramatically, right?

Speaker:

Because I'm just having this

Speaker:

conversation the other day, what is

Speaker:

our ratio right now for a

Speaker:

user-facing squad

Speaker:

that develops workflows that

Speaker:

are directly interacting with an end

Speaker:

user. What do we need in terms of

Speaker:

that ratio? Is it the classic one

Speaker:

product manager, 0.5 designer,

Speaker:

let's say three developers,

Speaker:

something like that. So that's no

Speaker:

longer as an example, the right

Speaker:

ratio is a more of like

Speaker:

one product editor to one engineer

Speaker:

now, because the engineer can do

Speaker:

three times the amount as an an

Speaker:

example. And if that's the case,

Speaker:

then in our hiring plan right now,

Speaker:

we're probably need a lot more product

Speaker:

managers.

Speaker:

But I think to your point, thinking

Speaker:

this through a little more AI wise

Speaker:

right now in our Hiring Plan

Speaker:

probably makes sense.

Speaker:

I also am a bit concerned

Speaker:

about product as a

Speaker:

discipline.

Speaker:

I think the world of product

Speaker:

and engineering are going to blur

Speaker:

fundamentally.

Speaker:

And so it's either gonna be

Speaker:

product engineers or

Speaker:

technical product people,

Speaker:

because really what we found

Speaker:

in the more that AI

Speaker:

is writing our code, the more

Speaker:

our engineers are spent

Speaker:

specking and prototyping.

Speaker:

And so we've actually changed the

Speaker:

process. So we have a PRD, but

Speaker:

what we have is our

Speaker:

engineers are

Speaker:

gathering requirements,

Speaker:

creating the spec, prototyping

Speaker:

it before they write any code, so

Speaker:

vibe coding it.

Speaker:

To our commercial team,

Speaker:

walking them through it as if

Speaker:

they've shipped product, getting all

Speaker:

of the feedback then, changing,

Speaker:

iterating, and then writing code.

Speaker:

I mean, that should be also a

Speaker:

product role, but what we're trying

Speaker:

to do is reduce the number of

Speaker:

handovers and get everybody

Speaker:

closer together.

Speaker:

We're a smaller team than you are,

Speaker:

but my mantra right now is

Speaker:

measure twice, cut once.

Speaker:

So I don't want that our

Speaker:

engineers are just going through and

Speaker:

taking the next ticket and building

Speaker:

code. I want them to be

Speaker:

thinking through.

Speaker:

Much more of an end-to-end solution,

Speaker:

and then building the code.

Speaker:

And I suppose in a way, this maybe

Speaker:

kind of dovetails slightly into

Speaker:

OKRs, because you want to get more

Speaker:

of this holistic view on what

Speaker:

problem are we solving, what results

Speaker:

do we actually need, what

Speaker:

initiatives actually make sense.

Speaker:

Because usually those developers

Speaker:

that are in OKR

Speaker:

as part of that team or that cross

Speaker:

functional squad, they're there

Speaker:

because A, they can communicate,

Speaker:

they think holistically, they can do

Speaker:

this kind of systems design thinking

Speaker:

and architecture piece.

Speaker:

They've got the rest of their team

Speaker:

to do more of the so-called coding

Speaker:

as it in that case.

Speaker:

So that individual that sits in

Speaker:

those OKR teams is more, I

Speaker:

suspect, the person that

Speaker:

we're going to be wanting more of in

Speaker:

the future.

Speaker:

100% agree.

Speaker:

I don't think it's a question of

Speaker:

what's the ratio of designer to

Speaker:

product manager to engineer anymore,

Speaker:

but it's what roles do we

Speaker:

need, what skills do we need and how

Speaker:

much can one person do.

Speaker:

So that was the thing for another

Speaker:

group that I'm in.

Speaker:

We had a master class in AI and for

Speaker:

me the biggest takeaway was how

Speaker:

many handovers have you eliminated?

Speaker:

And so I'm constantly thinking about

Speaker:

that now.

Speaker:

So, why don't we wrap it here and

Speaker:

get on to our conversation with

Speaker:

Agata Nowicka.

Speaker:

Maybe what I could say

Speaker:

is that some of the

Speaker:

key aspects that I see that those

Speaker:

really high velocity of

Speaker:

growth founders are now focusing

Speaker:

on are distribution.

Speaker:

Distribution is something that

Speaker:

literally you need to think about

Speaker:

from day one, something that maybe

Speaker:

was put for post-seed

Speaker:

stage afterwards.

Speaker:

The first was actually the first

Speaker:

indication of the value of your

Speaker:

proposition. Then you are thinking,

Speaker:

okay, now how can I start?

Speaker:

Working on these partnerships and so

Speaker:

on. Whereas distribution today is

Speaker:

much more of a kind of day one

Speaker:

problem, just because of the

Speaker:

expectations of investors being you

Speaker:

need to deliver a high ROI

Speaker:

and high velocity.

Speaker:

And therefore you cannot have that

Speaker:

high velocity of growth if you don't

Speaker:

have a pipeline already.

Speaker:

And if you don't know how to

Speaker:

how to convert those conversations

Speaker:

quite rapidly into revenue.

Speaker:

So that's the first one.

Speaker:

The second one that is also

Speaker:

important for early stage founders.

Speaker:

And this is, I will actually write

Speaker:

about it in my next newsletter.

Speaker:

I just got this idea because I spoke

Speaker:

with a few founders about it and I,

Speaker:

and I can see how many

Speaker:

founders don't really take

Speaker:

this topic seriously is

Speaker:

monetization.

Speaker:

So actually these really successful

Speaker:

high velocity founders right

Speaker:

now really take monetization

Speaker:

as a day one topic to

Speaker:

address. And again, this is not

Speaker:

what we used to see two, three,

Speaker:

three years ago.

Speaker:

We would be thinking, okay, first

Speaker:

seed your first customer group

Speaker:

and then think of, you know, go

Speaker:

through that freemium model was very

Speaker:

popular.

Speaker:

Let's go with free.

Speaker:

Let's see, seize the market and then

Speaker:

let's think about monetization next.

Speaker:

Whereas what we are seeing now and

Speaker:

all I'm seeing definitely has a

Speaker:

trend. Some of the lowest

Speaker:

hanging fruits when it comes to

Speaker:

investment for VCs

Speaker:

are those very vertical

Speaker:

solutions, addressing

Speaker:

problems that are very vertical,

Speaker:

very niche and deploying

Speaker:

AI and that's very often

Speaker:

just means automation.

Speaker:

So let's say agents

Speaker:

for healthcare workers

Speaker:

or front workers.

Speaker:

For example, I spoke with a company

Speaker:

yesterday.

Speaker:

Compliance for manufacturing,

Speaker:

workflow compliance, you know,

Speaker:

agents.

Speaker:

So what I'm trying to say there when

Speaker:

it comes to monetization, once

Speaker:

you raise your seed round or

Speaker:

kind of end round.

Speaker:

Your expectation is to deliver

Speaker:

that ROI that basically

Speaker:

is going to show us your revenue

Speaker:

within the next 12 months.

Speaker:

That's it.

Speaker:

You know, we've had this breakout

Speaker:

success with Lovable

Speaker:

that managed to

Speaker:

become a $2 billion company

Speaker:

within eight months.

Speaker:

And fortunately and unfortunately,

Speaker:

they set a very clear precedent

Speaker:

when it comes to the expectation

Speaker:

for growth.

Speaker:

And that's, you know, they set the

Speaker:

precedent for what's possible.

Speaker:

And now kind of all these

Speaker:

AI-first companies are working

Speaker:

off that benchmark.

Speaker:

And the third one I would say is

Speaker:

agility.

Speaker:

Again, and this is probably the one

Speaker:

because as much as

Speaker:

monetization, you know, probably as

Speaker:

a series B company, you've already,

Speaker:

you are generating revenue, you have

Speaker:

monetized your products, but then

Speaker:

it's also a question kind of

Speaker:

what else can you do?

Speaker:

What sort of value can you create

Speaker:

now to rapidly kind

Speaker:

of expand that revenue opportunities

Speaker:

of how can you monetize

Speaker:

extra value proposition.

Speaker:

But the third that I wanted to

Speaker:

mention is agility to innovate.

Speaker:

And that's something that I

Speaker:

would say series B plus

Speaker:

companies might very often struggle.

Speaker:

Because I'm talking about

Speaker:

companies that, again, originated

Speaker:

from this 1.0 or

Speaker:

2.0, however you look at it,

Speaker:

era, if we think that this is

Speaker:

a 3.0 era.

Speaker:

And Originally,

Speaker:

you had to build a team and you had

Speaker:

a sales team, marketing team,

Speaker:

partnerships team, however you name

Speaker:

it, in order to go to market.

Speaker:

And these roles can be, not

Speaker:

necessarily they have been taken

Speaker:

out, but they are hugely augmented.

Speaker:

So you end up with one person being

Speaker:

a marketing person, one person doing

Speaker:

sales, or a couple of people doing

Speaker:

sales wherever you are.

Speaker:

And therefore, that agility

Speaker:

is maintained for these

Speaker:

AI-first companies.

Speaker:

I spoke with a few CEOs of those

Speaker:

Playlabs and they are actually

Speaker:

struggling because obviously on one

Speaker:

hand you want to maintain culture,

Speaker:

you want to make people feel

Speaker:

still that you're on the top of the

Speaker:

world, even though you might not

Speaker:

be. I've been a founder myself

Speaker:

and you're always trying to

Speaker:

drive this vision.

Speaker:

But on the other hand, you need to

Speaker:

be reshaping your workforce in order

Speaker:

to be agile.

Speaker:

So these would be the three things

Speaker:

that I see.

Speaker:

So your answer was very much looking

Speaker:

outside and go-to-market

Speaker:

strategy.

Speaker:

We tend to have an audience of COOs

Speaker:

that worry about go- to-market

Speaker:

strategy, but also worry about how

Speaker:

to embed AI internally

Speaker:

with both within the product, but

Speaker:

more to get those efficiencies.

Speaker:

Cause this is something I'm

Speaker:

struggling with at work.

Speaker:

And so I'd be curious is I

Speaker:

can see how we can have one person

Speaker:

do an amazing marketing job.

Speaker:

I can see I have one person doing an

Speaker:

amazing finance job because there's

Speaker:

like so much that you can automate.

Speaker:

But what I am not sure about

Speaker:

is sales productivity,

Speaker:

because ultimately, you still need

Speaker:

to talk to people.

Speaker:

You still need that human touch.

Speaker:

Even if they're not filling in

Speaker:

CRMs the way they used to and

Speaker:

feedback and follow up is

Speaker:

way faster, there's a

Speaker:

limit to how much a salesperson can

Speaker:

do. As I'm wondering,

Speaker:

what's the like?

Speaker:

It used to be, let's say,

Speaker:

you would have a

Speaker:

mid-market rep would do $750,

Speaker:

an enterprise rep would be $1.2,

Speaker:

$1,500.

Speaker:

What do you see for productivity

Speaker:

once things are augmented?

Speaker:

Cracks in this is

Speaker:

you need to deliver not only

Speaker:

incremental value but really

Speaker:

significant value to your customers.

Speaker:

If you're able to show that your

Speaker:

product can deliver that

Speaker:

significant value, the

Speaker:

whole onboarding or sales

Speaker:

process can be a little bit

Speaker:

compromised because eventually

Speaker:

sales is you should

Speaker:

be able to demonstrate that value.

Speaker:

So you can play with the product for

Speaker:

free. Obviously, there are some

Speaker:

caps, but basically that's

Speaker:

one. And then if you

Speaker:

like the product, you can onboard

Speaker:

yourself for that, you know,

Speaker:

the first tier, let's say pricing

Speaker:

yourself.

Speaker:

So actually that role of

Speaker:

a kind of sales rep

Speaker:

is getting smaller and smaller

Speaker:

and it's only allocated and I

Speaker:

can see, I know because I spoken

Speaker:

with founders as well that evaluate

Speaker:

because obviously all this data in

Speaker:

terms of signups is coming through

Speaker:

their pipes and they are evaluating

Speaker:

who is actually their high-value

Speaker:

customer.

Speaker:

And who they will definitely want to

Speaker:

make sure that they want to convert.

Speaker:

So it's more strategic as opposed to

Speaker:

you have every rep speaking to

Speaker:

every, every person.

Speaker:

That's what I definitely see on the

Speaker:

enterprise sales, by the way,

Speaker:

AI obviously is very useful for

Speaker:

anything to do with preparation

Speaker:

of that meeting with origination,

Speaker:

evaluating on a much more

Speaker:

granular level, those prospects.

Speaker:

Do you have a PLG motion, Brandon?

Speaker:

It's one of those things I've been

Speaker:

thinking about, but we have other

Speaker:

stuff we need to get done first.

Speaker:

It requires quite a bit of

Speaker:

investment, but it is worth thinking

Speaker:

about.

Speaker:

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of

Speaker:

mechanics, I would say.

Speaker:

And the mechanics are very ripe, I

Speaker:

would say, for AI to do some

Speaker:

interesting things to make it way

Speaker:

faster and way easier.

Speaker:

Because we spent a lot time and

Speaker:

effort crafting all the mechanics

Speaker:

around PLG automation-wise

Speaker:

to make it all fluid in terms of

Speaker:

users seamlessly coming on board,

Speaker:

interacting in ways that were

Speaker:

interesting. And eventually, we

Speaker:

would bubble things up from an

Speaker:

individual user to a couple

Speaker:

different users to a team to two

Speaker:

teams. And eventually, based on

Speaker:

intent and signals and usage,

Speaker:

we'd have, what do we call them, a

Speaker:

customer advocate person contact

Speaker:

them to help them with the

Speaker:

underlying subtlety of trying to

Speaker:

figure out, you know, are they ready

Speaker:

for an enterprise contract?

Speaker:

And if so, how to service that to

Speaker:

a sales rep in that case.

Speaker:

So I have a question for you.

Speaker:

So I've a friend of mine that

Speaker:

is fundraising, and in

Speaker:

their fundraise right now, they're

Speaker:

trying to look at their plan

Speaker:

for headcount growth over the next

Speaker:

18 months based on the fundraise.

Speaker:

And the question that's rising in

Speaker:

this person's mind is, which

Speaker:

roles in this model should I

Speaker:

cut?

Speaker:

That usually I would have stuck in

Speaker:

that don't make sense anymore, or I

Speaker:

don't think makes sense anymore.

Speaker:

Which ones in that 10-count plan

Speaker:

need to go?

Speaker:

What's out?

Speaker:

Okay, what stage are

Speaker:

they?

Speaker:

Series B.

Speaker:

Oh, seriously? Okay.

Speaker:

All of our listeners, we pretend are

Speaker:

Series B, so.

Speaker:

Anything that can be literally

Speaker:

automated, that is a kind of analyst

Speaker:

job, I wouldn't be having an

Speaker:

analyst, basically, putting it this

Speaker:

way. I would be definitely replacing

Speaker:

the kind of junior jobs.

Speaker:

And we are already seeing it, by the

Speaker:

way.

Speaker:

I'm not saying anything new.

Speaker:

We're already seeing there hasn't

Speaker:

been a worst time for graduates

Speaker:

right now to get jobs for

Speaker:

that reason, because all that kind

Speaker:

of...

Speaker:

Administrative layer is being

Speaker:

replaced by AI.

Speaker:

So for me, I would be definitely,

Speaker:

what I would be assessing my

Speaker:

workforce would be

Speaker:

fluency when it comes to

Speaker:

using AI.

Speaker:

I feel this is a kind of must.

Speaker:

So everybody in that company

Speaker:

should be now retrained.

Speaker:

And those people who are resilient,

Speaker:

resistant, just replacing them with

Speaker:

people that are not.

Speaker:

I think that we've had enough time,

Speaker:

and maybe I'm a little bit sounding

Speaker:

harsh, but I think we've had enough

Speaker:

over two and

Speaker:

a half years, and especially if

Speaker:

you're building a tech company, you

Speaker:

want to have people who are

Speaker:

embracing technology internally

Speaker:

as much as building, obviously being

Speaker:

part of the tech business.

Speaker:

So giving them an opportunity, but

Speaker:

every employee in the company today

Speaker:

should have a clear view in terms

Speaker:

of what's needed or what

Speaker:

problem they're facing that they

Speaker:

would like to at least be solved

Speaker:

with AI. So have that have

Speaker:

that view.

Speaker:

Mother of children who will be

Speaker:

entering the workforce within the

Speaker:

next five to seven years,

Speaker:

how do I not think that they're

Speaker:

going to be living with me?

Speaker:

Like, who are the young people who

Speaker:

will get hired?

Speaker:

What are the skills that they should

Speaker:

be training for?

Speaker:

I think that that topic

Speaker:

is definitely going to be going

Speaker:

through evolution.

Speaker:

And as an engineer, the difference

Speaker:

is you're not going to be required

Speaker:

to code, absolutely not.

Speaker:

That's like that. We're already

Speaker:

seeing it. This part is going to

Speaker:

definitely be executed by AI,

Speaker:

but it's about system thinking.

Speaker:

So those engineers that were

Speaker:

software engineers, now you need to

Speaker:

be thinking more as an

Speaker:

architect or product architect,

Speaker:

system architect.

Speaker:

And, you know, I cannot definitely

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see. Areas such as

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psychology, anything that basically

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enhances our humanity

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or empathy.

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I think those skills,

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when it comes to even leadership or

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actually being expert and

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helping other people are going to

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become even more important.

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One of the topics that actually

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interests me, and I don't think that

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it's actually covered that much,

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it's also ethics.

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Because when you think about the

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fact that actually if

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things go in the same direction as

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they're going.

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A human in a loop is going to

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be put in the position of making

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much more significant decisions.

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If there is a reason to have a human

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in the loop, this means that you

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will need to make an

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important decision.

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And therefore, ethical decision

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making is something that

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I'm passionate about, but I don't

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think that I haven't found many

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conversations about this topic,

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and I think this is going become

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even more important, because

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eventually that's what will give us

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power versus machine.

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The machine not necessarily will be

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ethical. Of course, maybe at some

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point, but I think this is something

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that we should be caring about.

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So how do you get an organization

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activated to become

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AI first?

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So as within all organizations,

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everyone's using ChatGBT as

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individuals.

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Some folks are doing a couple of

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notebook LMs for various things.

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You have developers using a couple

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tools here and there.

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And that's generally what's happening

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in most companies.

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But the question of becoming really

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AI first and using it in

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a more transformational way,

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how do start doing that?

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Yes, so this

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question kind of builds on what I

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said earlier, which is

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that AI-first projects

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shouldn't be locked inside

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the IT department.

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This is like a completely wrong

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way of doing it, and I've seen it

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already fail in a couple of

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companies that I've spoken to.

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It should be a responsibility of

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every single, not only department,

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but also every single individual.

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And that starts with

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asking a question, exactly

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identifying your bottlenecks.

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And, you know, everybody, and again,

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depending on how big organization

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is, therefore, maybe it is more

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department when you get to a certain

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scale, but asking

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your employees to

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have a very clear view where their

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bottlenecks are.

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Without even knowing what's possible

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with AI, that would be a starting

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point. Everybody has got pains.

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You know, Bethany, you've just

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talked about slides.

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Maybe this is enough for sales.

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It's like, I hate doing slides.

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Okay, let's gather these ideas.

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Maybe, you know, once you speak

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with, I don't know,

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legal sales and maybe

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some other guys, you're

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going to discover that actually this

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bottleneck is...

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There across multiple departments

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or multiple people.

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Maybe there's an opportunity to

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invest into a tool or

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try a few tools that will be able

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to address that bottleneck.

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Because one of the key things that,

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again, I'm repeating myself, is

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that velocity of growth.

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So anything that limits you

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to either deliver

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a product or grow your product

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or close those sales

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should be priority.

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But now...

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As a CEO, you don't probably

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know what these things are, and very

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often it's down to very specific and

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awkward almost parts of your

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workflow.

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So first of all, it should be almost

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unlocked fast on the individual

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level.

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And secondly, it shouldn't be

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addressed on obviously strategic

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level, but still thinking about the

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top line and also about velocity

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of growth to make yourself

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competitive again with

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that new wave of

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AI-first startups as they

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scale.

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And then going back, Brandon, a bit

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to your question on, you asked which

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roles are out

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here for your friend.

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And I also think which roles are

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in and more in than they've ever

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been, which are all the BizOps,

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RevOps, ProductOps roles.

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If I were a young person, that's

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where I'd be going, because I think

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you can learn how a business works

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and you can use the tools quite

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well. We aren't at a point yet,

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we're getting there, but we're not

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to make true agents

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and true automation easy.

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There's still a level of

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both system thinking and

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I think by the end of the year there

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might be quite good, because I know

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like NAN just released

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natural language

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workflows, but I don't know how good

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it is in reality, is you

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still need to think through

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your workflow and you

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still have to have the

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plumbing.

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That hasn't gone away yet and I

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don't think it will because

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businesses are fundamentally

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complicated.

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A couple of things on that actually,

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just because I reminded myself, a

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couple of things about product

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actually and marketing.

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So firstly, definitely I'm

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seeing a trend of product

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people doing sales

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and marketing, again,

Speaker:

through hackathons, demos, and

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building those communities around

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their products, actually it is

Speaker:

product people are supposed to

Speaker:

marketing people because they know

Speaker:

so much about integration.

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Actually value and also

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they are the most knowledgeable in

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terms of where you are when it comes

Speaker:

to product because you know product

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cycles have become much shorter

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because you can do things so much

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faster and therefore it is

Speaker:

down to very often not even

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engineers because engineers cannot

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very often talk about products it's

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product people actually who are the

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best sales people right now and

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on marketing market is again

Speaker:

unless you can program it unless

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it becomes programmatic and

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automated.

Speaker:

That role of marketers is

Speaker:

also shrinking or actually it is

Speaker:

being reshaped.

Speaker:

Again, because of the cycles of

Speaker:

shipping your new features,

Speaker:

new versions of your products are so

Speaker:

fast that unless you have

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a tool that is able to release

Speaker:

and update your customers

Speaker:

rapidly on a weekly basis,

Speaker:

you're going to be always playing

Speaker:

that catch-up.

Speaker:

And I definitely have spoken with

Speaker:

multiple marketers over the past

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few months who can't really catch

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up. They don't know what's

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happening and therefore making sure

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that if you want to, if you see

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value of brand is very

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important, those aspects that

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potentially product people are not

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going to be able to unnecessarily

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add value to, you definitely

Speaker:

should be bringing those two

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teams together.

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Marketing has to be up to date

Speaker:

when it comes to your product right

Speaker:

now in order to be useful.

Speaker:

Product marketing has become more

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important than it's ever been.

Speaker:

I mean, it's always been important,

Speaker:

but product marketing is the most

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valuable right now because marketing

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is about the repeatability in

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the systems and product marketing is

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about content and

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connecting it, right?

Speaker:

We are completely running out

Speaker:

of time. I just noticed the time

Speaker:

here, but nobody gets out

Speaker:

without answering the final

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question, which is from everything

Speaker:

that we spoke about today or just

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listening to the episode in general.

Speaker:

What is the one takeaway

Speaker:

for our listeners?

Speaker:

Don't spend time rethinking,

Speaker:

just start doing.

Speaker:

Like literally, the time

Speaker:

for series B companies,

Speaker:

I think that is the most challenging

Speaker:

right now time.

Speaker:

And unless you start implementing

Speaker:

some of the ideas that we've

Speaker:

addressed today, or actually

Speaker:

yesterday, you're just not going to

Speaker:

survive. The chances are that you're

Speaker:

not going to survive because the

Speaker:

level of ambition, level of vision,

Speaker:

the level of expectations of

Speaker:

investors has been reasoned

Speaker:

so much Thanks for watching.

Speaker:

Unless you're truly embracing AI

Speaker:

and seeing it as a huge opportunity

Speaker:

for your growth and for

Speaker:

driving that velocity, you're just

Speaker:

not going to survive.

Speaker:

Sorry for ending it at

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the negative, but that's

Speaker:

the reality, that's reality.

Speaker:

So, you know, the future is going to

Speaker:

be, you know it belongs to

Speaker:

visionary founders who are

Speaker:

very good at fast execution

Speaker:

and iteration.

Speaker:

And that can translate that

Speaker:

vision quite rapidly into execution,

Speaker:

into revenue and growth.

Speaker:

And there's nowhere in between.

Speaker:

All right. So thank you, Agatha,

Speaker:

for joining us on the operations

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room. If you like what you hear,

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please subscribe or leave us a

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comment and we will see you next

Speaker:

week.

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