Speaker: 00:00:01

Nick Mott: This series was supported by

Speaker: 00:00:03

Nick Mott: the Pulitzer Center.

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Lisa Murkowski: Mr. President,

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Lisa Murkowski: I don't know if you've

Speaker: 00:00:09

Lisa Murkowski: recognize. This is a very

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Lisa Murkowski: historic day, of course, but

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Lisa Murkowski: it's also the beginning

Speaker: 00:00:13

Lisa Murkowski: of winter solstice.

Speaker: 00:00:15

Amy Martin: Welcome to Threshold, I'm Amy

Speaker: 00:00:16

Amy Martin: Martin, and this is the final

Speaker: 00:00:18

Amy Martin: episode in our series about

Speaker: 00:00:20

Amy Martin: the Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:00:21

Amy Martin: Refuge.

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Amy Martin: And to kick us off here, I want

Speaker: 00:00:23

Amy Martin: to return to where we started

Speaker: 00:00:25

Amy Martin: with Alaska Senator Lisa

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Amy Martin: Murkowski on December

Speaker: 00:00:28

Amy Martin: 20th, 2017.

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Lisa Murkowski: This has been a

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Lisa Murkowski: multi-generational

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Lisa Murkowski: fight.

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Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski was

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Amy Martin: celebrating the signing of the

Speaker: 00:00:37

Amy Martin: Tax Cuts and Jobs Act,

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Amy Martin: which included a provision

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Amy Martin: mandating an oil and gas

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Amy Martin: lease sale in the refuge.

Speaker: 00:00:44

Lisa Murkowski: This is a bright today

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Lisa Murkowski: for Alaska.

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Lisa Murkowski: This is a bright day for

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Lisa Murkowski: America.So

Speaker: 00:00:51

Lisa Murkowski: we thank you for that.

Speaker: 00:00:52

Amy Martin: Despite the celebratory tone,

Speaker: 00:00:54

Amy Martin: when you watch this video from

Speaker: 00:00:56

Amy Martin: CNN, the moment actually

Speaker: 00:00:57

Amy Martin: seems loaded with awkwardness.

Speaker: 00:01:00

Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski is speaking

Speaker: 00:01:01

Amy Martin: while President Trump looks on

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Amy Martin: from the side smiling.

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Amy Martin: But just five months earlier,

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Amy Martin: she had made him very angry

Speaker: 00:01:08

Amy Martin: by breaking with her party to

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Amy Martin: vote against his attempt to

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Amy Martin: repeal the Affordable Care Act.

Speaker: 00:01:14

Amy Martin: And nine months after the tax

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Amy Martin: bill was signed, Murkowski

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Amy Martin: would become the only

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Amy Martin: Republican senator to openly

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Amy Martin: oppose Trump's Supreme Court

Speaker: 00:01:21

Amy Martin: nominee, Brett Kavanaugh.

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Amy Martin: And then there's climate

Speaker: 00:01:25

Amy Martin: change.

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Amy Martin: Senator Murkowski talks about

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Amy Martin: it as a reality and a threat,

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Amy Martin: while the president denies that

Speaker: 00:01:31

Amy Martin: it's happening.

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Amy Martin: So it's hard to imagine

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Amy Martin: that these two are exactly

Speaker: 00:01:36

Amy Martin: pals.

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Amy Martin: But on this issue, opening

Speaker: 00:01:39

Amy Martin: the largest wildlife refuge in

Speaker: 00:01:40

Amy Martin: the country to oil and gas

Speaker: 00:01:42

Amy Martin: drilling, they found common

Speaker: 00:01:44

Amy Martin: ground.

Speaker: 00:01:44

Lisa Murkowski: This, Mr. President, is

Speaker: 00:01:46

Lisa Murkowski: what energy dominance

Speaker: 00:01:48

Lisa Murkowski: is all about.

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Amy Martin: So my question is: why?

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Amy Martin: Why is a moderate Republican,

Speaker: 00:01:55

Amy Martin: one who's concerned about

Speaker: 00:01:56

Amy Martin: climate change leading the

Speaker: 00:01:58

Amy Martin: charge for fossil fuel

Speaker: 00:01:59

Amy Martin: development in a pristine

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Amy Martin: wildlife refuge?

Speaker: 00:02:02

Amy Martin: How did this become the issue

Speaker: 00:02:03

Amy Martin: that brought Senator Murkowski

Speaker: 00:02:05

Amy Martin: and President Trump together?

Speaker: 00:02:07

Victoria Herrmann: Historically, we have looked

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Victoria Herrmann: in the north of

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Victoria Herrmann: oil as an economic

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Victoria Herrmann: asset, and we have

Speaker: 00:02:15

Victoria Herrmann: squared it separately

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Victoria Herrmann: from climate change.

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Amy Martin: Victoria Herrmann is the

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Amy Martin: managing director of the Arctic

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Amy Martin: Institute, a think tank based

Speaker: 00:02:23

Amy Martin: in Washington, DC.

Speaker: 00:02:25

Victoria Herrmann: Alaska is an oil

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Victoria Herrmann: state, right?

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Victoria Herrmann: It provides revenue

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Victoria Herrmann: to run the state budget, to

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Victoria Herrmann: run its schools, its health

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Victoria Herrmann: care system, and it provides

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Victoria Herrmann: thousands of jobs across the

Speaker: 00:02:35

Victoria Herrmann: state.

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Victoria Herrmann: Oil equates to

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Victoria Herrmann: the economy.

Speaker: 00:02:39

Victoria Herrmann: It does not factor in

Speaker: 00:02:40

Victoria Herrmann: into climate change

Speaker: 00:02:42

Victoria Herrmann: conversations because that

Speaker: 00:02:43

Victoria Herrmann: is in a separate silo.

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Amy Martin: As we've mentioned earlier,

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Amy Martin: more than 80% of the

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Amy Martin: money in Alaska state budget

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Amy Martin: comes from taxes and royalties

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Amy Martin: that oil companies pay to the

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Amy Martin: state.

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Amy Martin: Historically, it's been closer

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Amy Martin: to 90%.

Speaker: 00:02:57

Amy Martin: And Victoria says that history,

Speaker: 00:02:59

Amy Martin: that commitment to oil

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Amy Martin: as the lifeblood of the state

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Amy Martin: of Alaska, that was

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Amy Martin: also a commitment to a certain

Speaker: 00:03:06

Amy Martin: way of thinking.

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Victoria Herrmann: I think currently

Speaker: 00:03:09

Victoria Herrmann: there is a path dependance

Speaker: 00:03:11

Victoria Herrmann: on how we think about

Speaker: 00:03:13

Victoria Herrmann: energy and the Arctic

Speaker: 00:03:15

Victoria Herrmann: National Wildlife Refuge and

Speaker: 00:03:17

Victoria Herrmann: how we think about climate

Speaker: 00:03:18

Victoria Herrmann: change.

Speaker: 00:03:18

Amy Martin: Path dependence?

Speaker: 00:03:19

Victoria Herrmann: A path dependance.

Speaker: 00:03:21

Victoria Herrmann: When Senator Murkowski talks

Speaker: 00:03:23

Victoria Herrmann: about ANWR, she does not

Speaker: 00:03:24

Victoria Herrmann: talk about climate change,

Speaker: 00:03:25

Victoria Herrmann: right? She has divided these

Speaker: 00:03:27

Victoria Herrmann: into two completely separate

Speaker: 00:03:29

Victoria Herrmann: conversations.

Speaker: 00:03:30

Victoria Herrmann: You will not see them overlap

Speaker: 00:03:32

Victoria Herrmann: because if they do, then

Speaker: 00:03:34

Victoria Herrmann: you have a conflict.

Speaker: 00:03:35

Victoria Herrmann: You have a tension between

Speaker: 00:03:37

Victoria Herrmann: drilling, but also wanting

Speaker: 00:03:39

Victoria Herrmann: to mitigate your greenhouse gas

Speaker: 00:03:40

Victoria Herrmann: emissions.

Speaker: 00:03:41

Victoria Herrmann: So they have to stay separate.

Speaker: 00:03:46

Amy Martin: The fight over drilling in the

Speaker: 00:03:47

Amy Martin: refuge predates our battles

Speaker: 00:03:49

Amy Martin: over climate change, but not

Speaker: 00:03:51

Amy Martin: by much.

Speaker: 00:03:52

Amy Martin: Both questions emerged in the

Speaker: 00:03:53

Amy Martin: 1980s, even though at

Speaker: 00:03:55

Amy Martin: that time the two issues were

Speaker: 00:03:56

Amy Martin: not connected in people's

Speaker: 00:03:58

Amy Martin: minds.

Speaker: 00:03:59

Amy Martin: Looking back, it's like

Speaker: 00:04:00

Amy Martin: watching two trains leaving

Speaker: 00:04:02

Amy Martin: the station side by side,

Speaker: 00:04:04

Amy Martin: and as they head out, they look

Speaker: 00:04:06

Amy Martin: like they're on parallel

Speaker: 00:04:06

Amy Martin: tracks.

Speaker: 00:04:08

Amy Martin: As the decades roll by, though,

Speaker: 00:04:10

Amy Martin: you can start to see that those

Speaker: 00:04:11

Amy Martin: tracks are actually slowly

Speaker: 00:04:13

Amy Martin: moving closer and closer

Speaker: 00:04:15

Amy Martin: together.

Speaker: 00:04:16

Amy Martin: And now, no matter how much

Speaker: 00:04:18

Amy Martin: some people might want to keep

Speaker: 00:04:19

Amy Martin: them apart, the ten-tonne

Speaker: 00:04:21

Amy Martin: locomotive of climate change

Speaker: 00:04:23

Amy Martin: is crashing into the debate

Speaker: 00:04:25

Amy Martin: over the future of the refuge.

Speaker: 00:04:31

Speaker 5: What is the value of

Speaker: 00:04:32

Speaker 5: these animals and their

Speaker: 00:04:33

Speaker 5: ecosystems?

Speaker: 00:04:34

Speaker 6: It's a big opportunity

Speaker: 00:04:36

Speaker 6: that we be able to

Speaker: 00:04:38

Speaker 6: profit off of.

Speaker: 00:04:39

Speaker 7: Our permafrost is melting.

Speaker: 00:04:41

Speaker 7: Our snow doesn't stick

Speaker: 00:04:43

Speaker 7: like it used to.

Speaker: 00:04:44

Speaker 8: I think that it would open up a

Speaker: 00:04:46

Speaker 8: lot of jobs.

Speaker: 00:04:47

Speaker 8: I think that it could be a

Speaker: 00:04:48

Speaker 8: really good thing.

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Speaker 9: This is where we have to live.

Speaker: 00:04:51

Speaker 9: This is where we have to leave

Speaker: 00:04:52

Speaker 9: our children when we die.

Speaker: 00:04:54

Speaker 9: You have to think about that.

Speaker: 00:04:56

Speaker 10: Climate change is happening.

Speaker: 00:04:57

Speaker 10: We need to do something about

Speaker: 00:04:59

Speaker 10: it.

Speaker: 00:05:02

Amy Martin: Between June of 1988

Speaker: 00:05:04

Amy Martin: and March of 1989,

Speaker: 00:05:07

Amy Martin: four different events happened,

Speaker: 00:05:08

Amy Martin: which have kind of a spooky

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Amy Martin: level of interconnectedness.

Speaker: 00:05:12

Amy Martin: At least that's how it seems

Speaker: 00:05:14

Amy Martin: to me looking back at them now,

Speaker: 00:05:16

Amy Martin: at the time, they probably

Speaker: 00:05:17

Amy Martin: didn't seem very related to

Speaker: 00:05:19

Amy Martin: most of the people involved

Speaker: 00:05:21

Amy Martin: because like Victoria Herrmann

Speaker: 00:05:23

Amy Martin: just described, these events

Speaker: 00:05:24

Amy Martin: were unfolding on different

Speaker: 00:05:26

Amy Martin: paths, parallel tracks.

Speaker: 00:05:29

Amy Martin: But as I researched the

Speaker: 00:05:30

Amy Martin: controversy over drilling in

Speaker: 00:05:31

Amy Martin: the refuge, I got fascinated

Speaker: 00:05:33

Amy Martin: by this nine months and how

Speaker: 00:05:35

Amy Martin: these four events, two

Speaker: 00:05:37

Amy Martin: in Alaska, two in Washington,

Speaker: 00:05:39

Amy Martin: D.C., foreshadow

Speaker: 00:05:40

Amy Martin: the moment we're in now,

Speaker: 00:05:42

Amy Martin: when the debate about drilling

Speaker: 00:05:44

Amy Martin: in the refuge and the debate

Speaker: 00:05:45

Amy Martin: about how to respond to the

Speaker: 00:05:47

Amy Martin: climate crisis are slamming

Speaker: 00:05:49

Amy Martin: into each other full force.

Speaker: 00:05:52

Amy Martin: The first event started June

Speaker: 00:05:54

Amy Martin: 5th, 1988.

Speaker: 00:05:55

Amy Martin: This is what we talked about in

Speaker: 00:05:57

Amy Martin: our last episode, the Gwich'in

Speaker: 00:05:58

Amy Martin: gathering members

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Amy Martin: of the Gwich'in Nation on both

Speaker: 00:06:02

Amy Martin: sides of the U.S.

Speaker: 00:06:03

Amy Martin: Canada border came together

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Amy Martin: in Arctic Village, Alaska

Speaker: 00:06:06

Amy Martin: to discuss how to respond

Speaker: 00:06:08

Amy Martin: to the threat of oil

Speaker: 00:06:09

Amy Martin: development on the coastal

Speaker: 00:06:11

Amy Martin: plain.

Speaker: 00:06:12

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: This doesn't make sense to

Speaker: 00:06:13

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: destroy such and

Speaker: 00:06:15

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: this piece of land.

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Amy Martin: This is from a video of the

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Amy Martin: gathering made by Northern

Speaker: 00:06:19

Amy Martin: Native Broadcasting.

Speaker: 00:06:21

Amy Martin: The man speaking is young.

Speaker: 00:06:22

Amy Martin: He's outside.

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Amy Martin: He's carrying a gun on his

Speaker: 00:06:24

Amy Martin: shoulder.

Speaker: 00:06:25

Amy Martin: It looks like he was asked to

Speaker: 00:06:26

Amy Martin: do an interview on his way out

Speaker: 00:06:28

Amy Martin: to go hunting.

Speaker: 00:06:29

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: I don't see why we should mess

Speaker: 00:06:30

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: with it.

Speaker: 00:06:31

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It doesn't belong to nobody.

Speaker: 00:06:33

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It's just like

Speaker: 00:06:35

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: our parents.

Speaker: 00:06:37

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: We survive on it.

Speaker: 00:06:39

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: It's hard to see

Speaker: 00:06:42

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: the people trying to

Speaker: 00:06:43

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: destroy the property,

Speaker: 00:06:46

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: especially the caribou.

Speaker: 00:06:47

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: I mean, raiding.

Speaker: 00:06:49

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: They're carrying guns.

Speaker: 00:06:50

Man from Gwich'in Gathering Video: They're going to dig around in their calving grounds.

Speaker: 00:06:58

Amy Martin: The gathering ended on June

Speaker: 00:07:00

Amy Martin: 10th and the Gwich'in began

Speaker: 00:07:01

Amy Martin: to distribute their message

Speaker: 00:07:03

Amy Martin: that they were united in

Speaker: 00:07:04

Amy Martin: opposition to drilling in the

Speaker: 00:07:05

Amy Martin: refuge.

Speaker: 00:07:06

Amy Martin: So that's number one of four

Speaker: 00:07:08

Amy Martin: here. The second thing

Speaker: 00:07:09

Amy Martin: happened just 13 days later

Speaker: 00:07:11

Amy Martin: on the other side of the

Speaker: 00:07:12

Amy Martin: continent.

Speaker: 00:07:15

Amy Martin: It's June 23rd, 1988,

Speaker: 00:07:17

Amy Martin: and the Senate Energy and

Speaker: 00:07:18

Amy Martin: Natural Resources Committee is

Speaker: 00:07:19

Amy Martin: holding a hearing.

Speaker: 00:07:21

Amy Martin: It's a sweltering day in

Speaker: 00:07:22

Amy Martin: Washington, D.C., and

Speaker: 00:07:24

Amy Martin: senators are gathered to listen

Speaker: 00:07:25

Amy Martin: to scientist James Hansen.

Speaker: 00:07:27

Amy Martin: Hansen was working for NASA at

Speaker: 00:07:29

Amy Martin: the time, and he was invited

Speaker: 00:07:30

Amy Martin: to speak at this hearing to

Speaker: 00:07:32

Amy Martin: deliver some startling news.

Speaker: 00:07:34

Amy Martin: Humans were warming up the

Speaker: 00:07:35

Amy Martin: planet by burning fossil fuels.

Speaker: 00:07:37

Amy Martin: The chairman of that Senate

Speaker: 00:07:38

Amy Martin: committee was J.

Speaker: 00:07:39

Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston, a Democrat

Speaker: 00:07:41

Amy Martin: from Louisiana.

Speaker: 00:07:42

Senator Johnston: This was very much an

Speaker: 00:07:44

Senator Johnston: introduction to the

Speaker: 00:07:46

Senator Johnston: issue for the public.

Speaker: 00:07:48

Amy Martin: Senator Johnston is 86

Speaker: 00:07:49

Amy Martin: years old now.

Speaker: 00:07:50

Amy Martin: I spoke to him over the phone.

Speaker: 00:07:52

Senator Johnston: It was clear to me that

Speaker: 00:07:54

Senator Johnston: global warming was a coming

Speaker: 00:07:56

Senator Johnston: issue and that we needed to pay

Speaker: 00:07:58

Senator Johnston: attention to it.

Speaker: 00:08:00

Amy Martin: The idea that humans could be

Speaker: 00:08:01

Amy Martin: heating up the planet wasn't

Speaker: 00:08:03

Amy Martin: new.

Speaker: 00:08:04

Amy Martin: Scientists have been talking

Speaker: 00:08:05

Amy Martin: about the possibility for a

Speaker: 00:08:06

Amy Martin: long time, but James

Speaker: 00:08:08

Amy Martin: Hansen was presenting evidence

Speaker: 00:08:09

Amy Martin: that it was more than a

Speaker: 00:08:10

Amy Martin: possibility it was actually

Speaker: 00:08:12

Amy Martin: happening.

Speaker: 00:08:13

Amy Martin: This was big news.

Speaker: 00:08:15

Amy Martin: The hearing made the front page

Speaker: 00:08:16

Amy Martin: of the New York Times the next

Speaker: 00:08:17

Amy Martin: day under the headline, "Global

Speaker: 00:08:19

Amy Martin: Warming has Begun, Expert

Speaker: 00:08:21

Amy Martin: tells Senate.

Speaker: 00:08:23

Amy Martin: Senator Johnston says he took

Speaker: 00:08:24

Amy Martin: climate change seriously

Speaker: 00:08:26

Amy Martin: from the beginning.

Speaker: 00:08:27

Senator Johnston: Yeah, I mean, we've got to cut

Speaker: 00:08:29

Senator Johnston: down on the amount of carbon

Speaker: 00:08:30

Senator Johnston: that we produce worldwide.

Speaker: 00:08:32

Senator Johnston: It's a worldwide issue.

Speaker: 00:08:34

Senator Johnston: The United States needs to lead

Speaker: 00:08:36

Senator Johnston: the world.

Speaker: 00:08:37

Senator Johnston: It was a great mistake to

Speaker: 00:08:38

Senator Johnston: withdraw from the

Speaker: 00:08:40

Senator Johnston: Paris Accords.

Speaker: 00:08:42

Senator Johnston: That's what we need to do

Speaker: 00:08:44

Senator Johnston: is do this on a worldwide

Speaker: 00:08:45

Senator Johnston: basis.

Speaker: 00:08:48

Amy Martin: So the Gwich'in gathering and

Speaker: 00:08:49

Amy Martin: the James Hansen testimony

Speaker: 00:08:51

Amy Martin: happened within two weeks of

Speaker: 00:08:52

Amy Martin: each other in June 1988.

Speaker: 00:08:54

Amy Martin: Now, fast forward to March

Speaker: 00:08:57

Amy Martin: of 1989.

Speaker: 00:08:58

Amy Martin: We're still in Washington.

Speaker: 00:08:59

Amy Martin: In fact, we're still in that

Speaker: 00:09:00

Amy Martin: same committee.

Speaker: 00:09:02

Amy Martin: It's March 16th and

Speaker: 00:09:03

Amy Martin: the Senate Energy and Natural

Speaker: 00:09:04

Amy Martin: Resources Committee votes yes

Speaker: 00:09:07

Amy Martin: on a bill to drill in the

Speaker: 00:09:08

Amy Martin: Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:09:09

Amy Martin: Refuge.

Speaker: 00:09:10

Amy Martin: The sponsor of that bill,

Speaker: 00:09:12

Amy Martin: Senator J.

Speaker: 00:09:13

Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston.

Speaker: 00:09:14

Senator Johnston: I was absolutely convinced,

Speaker: 00:09:16

Senator Johnston: having been there many times

Speaker: 00:09:17

Senator Johnston: and having extensive

Speaker: 00:09:19

Senator Johnston: hearings, that

Speaker: 00:09:20

Senator Johnston: the ecological damage

Speaker: 00:09:22

Senator Johnston: would be minimal.

Speaker: 00:09:24

Senator Johnston: The potential

Speaker: 00:09:25

Senator Johnston: for oil and gas for

Speaker: 00:09:27

Senator Johnston: the United States was great.

Speaker: 00:09:29

Amy Martin: And he still feels that way

Speaker: 00:09:30

Amy Martin: today.

Speaker: 00:09:31

Amy Martin: The senator who presided over

Speaker: 00:09:33

Amy Martin: the committee which held the

Speaker: 00:09:34

Amy Martin: nation's first congressional

Speaker: 00:09:35

Amy Martin: climate change hearings, is

Speaker: 00:09:37

Amy Martin: the same senator who's been

Speaker: 00:09:38

Amy Martin: pushing to drill for oil in the

Speaker: 00:09:40

Amy Martin: refuge since Ronald Reagan was

Speaker: 00:09:41

Amy Martin: president.

Speaker: 00:09:42

Amy Martin: Yes, I have questions, too.

Speaker: 00:09:44

Amy Martin: We're coming back to that.

Speaker: 00:09:46

Amy Martin: But first, you need to know

Speaker: 00:09:47

Amy Martin: about event number four.

Speaker: 00:09:49

Amy Martin: On March 24th, just

Speaker: 00:09:51

Amy Martin: eight days after that pro

Speaker: 00:09:52

Amy Martin: drilling bill advanced out of

Speaker: 00:09:53

Amy Martin: committee, this happens.

Speaker: 00:09:56

CNN: The tanker Exxon Valdez,

Speaker: 00:09:58

CNN: gouged by a reef.

Speaker: 00:09:59

CNN: It's already the largest oil

Speaker: 00:10:01

CNN: spill in U.S.

Speaker: 00:10:02

CNN: history.

Speaker: 00:10:03

Amy Martin: This is from a CNN report

Speaker: 00:10:05

Amy Martin: recorded the day of the Exxon

Speaker: 00:10:06

Amy Martin: Valdez oil spill.

Speaker: 00:10:08

CNN: More than 8.5 million gallons

Speaker: 00:10:10

CNN: poured into Prince William

Speaker: 00:10:11

CNN: Sound, a prime fishing and

Speaker: 00:10:13

CNN: recreation area.

Speaker: 00:10:14

CNN: A five mile long oil slick

Speaker: 00:10:16

CNN: is moving out to sea.

Speaker: 00:10:18

Amy Martin: Prince William Sound is a

Speaker: 00:10:19

Amy Martin: southern Alaska inlet dotted

Speaker: 00:10:21

Amy Martin: with islands and ringed with

Speaker: 00:10:22

Amy Martin: gorgeous forested mountains.

Speaker: 00:10:24

Amy Martin: Tucked into one of the many

Speaker: 00:10:26

Amy Martin: fjords there, is Valdez,

Speaker: 00:10:28

Amy Martin: a port town and the southern

Speaker: 00:10:29

Amy Martin: end of the Trans-Alaska

Speaker: 00:10:31

Amy Martin: Pipeline.

Speaker: 00:10:32

CNN: The supertanker bound for Long

Speaker: 00:10:33

CNN: Beach, California, ran aground

Speaker: 00:10:34

CNN: about 22 miles south of Valdez

Speaker: 00:10:37

CNN: early Friday morning after

Speaker: 00:10:38

CNN: loading a cargo of 1.25

Speaker: 00:10:40

CNN: million barrels from the Alaska

Speaker: 00:10:42

CNN: pipeline.

Speaker: 00:10:43

CNN: Oil poured into the sound at

Speaker: 00:10:44

CNN: the rate of 20,000 gallons an

Speaker: 00:10:46

CNN: hour for 12 hours.

Speaker: 00:10:48

CNN: Alyeska was supposed to have an

Speaker: 00:10:49

CNN: emergency response team at

Speaker: 00:10:51

CNN: its terminal in Valdez,

Speaker: 00:10:52

CNN: but eight years ago, the team

Speaker: 00:10:54

CNN: was disbanded.

Speaker: 00:10:55

CNN: Equipment to fight the spill

Speaker: 00:10:56

CNN: has to be flown in from as far

Speaker: 00:10:58

CNN: away as Texas and England.

Speaker: 00:10:59

CNN: The spill closed the port of

Speaker: 00:11:00

CNN: Valdez, which pumps 2

Speaker: 00:11:02

CNN: million barrels a day, one

Speaker: 00:11:04

CNN: fourth of America's domestic

Speaker: 00:11:05

CNN: crude output.

Speaker: 00:11:06

CNN: Exxon says it's using all

Speaker: 00:11:08

CNN: available resources, but

Speaker: 00:11:10

CNN: it argues the spill is simply

Speaker: 00:11:11

CNN: too big to surround with

Speaker: 00:11:13

CNN: booms and skim it up.

Speaker: 00:11:21

Amy Martin: The tanker ended up bleeding 11

Speaker: 00:11:23

Amy Martin: million gallons of oil into

Speaker: 00:11:24

Amy Martin: the sound.

Speaker: 00:11:25

Amy Martin: The oil rapidly spread through

Speaker: 00:11:27

Amy Martin: the water, eventually dirtying

Speaker: 00:11:29

Amy Martin: more than 1300 miles

Speaker: 00:11:31

Amy Martin: of shoreline.

Speaker: 00:11:32

Amy Martin: Hundreds of thousands of

Speaker: 00:11:33

Amy Martin: seabirds died, along with

Speaker: 00:11:34

Amy Martin: thousands of otters, hundreds

Speaker: 00:11:36

Amy Martin: of seals, dozens of species

Speaker: 00:11:38

Amy Martin: were impacted, including

Speaker: 00:11:39

Amy Martin: our own.

Speaker: 00:11:40

Amy Martin: Commercial fishing and

Speaker: 00:11:42

Amy Martin: recreation industries in the

Speaker: 00:11:43

Amy Martin: sound took a massive hit

Speaker: 00:11:45

Amy Martin: and families who depended on

Speaker: 00:11:46

Amy Martin: the animals in those waters for

Speaker: 00:11:48

Amy Martin: their food had to look

Speaker: 00:11:49

Amy Martin: elsewhere.

Speaker: 00:11:51

Amy Martin: In the wake of the spill, rates

Speaker: 00:11:52

Amy Martin: of anxiety, depression,

Speaker: 00:11:54

Amy Martin: substance abuse and domestic

Speaker: 00:11:56

Amy Martin: violence went up across the

Speaker: 00:11:57

Amy Martin: region.

Speaker: 00:11:58

Amy Martin: It was a collective trauma.

Speaker: 00:12:00

Amy Martin: Today, 30 years later,

Speaker: 00:12:02

Amy Martin: you can still find oil on some

Speaker: 00:12:04

Amy Martin: of those beaches.

Speaker: 00:12:05

Amy Martin: And many people say life there

Speaker: 00:12:07

Amy Martin: has never been the same.

Speaker: 00:12:08

CNN: The accident is providing a

Speaker: 00:12:10

CNN: rallying point for conservation

Speaker: 00:12:12

CNN: groups in the lower 48

Speaker: 00:12:13

CNN: opposed to oil drilling

Speaker: 00:12:15

CNN: in the Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:12:17

CNN: Refuge.

Speaker: 00:12:18

Amy Martin: Remember, all of this was just

Speaker: 00:12:19

Amy Martin: eight days after Senator

Speaker: 00:12:21

Amy Martin: Johnston's bill opening up ANWR

Speaker: 00:12:23

Amy Martin: for drilling had passed out

Speaker: 00:12:25

Amy Martin: of committee.

Speaker: 00:12:27

Senator Johnston: Yes. So I remember that the

Speaker: 00:12:28

Senator Johnston: timing was very bad.

Speaker: 00:12:31

Amy Martin: Did it give you pause at all?

Speaker: 00:12:33

Amy Martin: Did it make you think like,

Speaker: 00:12:35

Amy Martin: maybe this is something we

Speaker: 00:12:37

Amy Martin: should be a little bit more

Speaker: 00:12:38

Amy Martin: hesitant about?

Speaker: 00:12:39

Senator Johnston: No, they're unrelated.

Speaker: 00:12:41

Senator Johnston: I mean, the

Speaker: 00:12:44

Senator Johnston: use of a tanker

Speaker: 00:12:46

Senator Johnston: is just not related to the

Speaker: 00:12:48

Senator Johnston: danger of drilling in ANWR.

Speaker: 00:12:51

Amy Martin: Drilling in the refuge would

Speaker: 00:12:52

Amy Martin: happen on land, Senator

Speaker: 00:12:54

Amy Martin: Johnston says.

Speaker: 00:12:55

Amy Martin: The Valdez spill happened in

Speaker: 00:12:56

Amy Martin: the water.

Speaker: 00:12:57

Amy Martin: His ANWR bill was about oil

Speaker: 00:12:59

Amy Martin: production.

Speaker: 00:13:00

Amy Martin: This disaster was about oil

Speaker: 00:13:02

Amy Martin: transport.

Speaker: 00:13:03

Amy Martin: From his perspective, it's

Speaker: 00:13:04

Amy Martin: apples and oranges.

Speaker: 00:13:06

Amy Martin: But where Senator Johnston saw

Speaker: 00:13:08

Amy Martin: distinct, unrelated processes,

Speaker: 00:13:10

Amy Martin: many others saw an

Speaker: 00:13:11

Amy Martin: interconnected web.

Speaker: 00:13:13

Amy Martin: The oil that was leaving otters

Speaker: 00:13:15

Amy Martin: gasping for breath and seabirds

Speaker: 00:13:17

Amy Martin: unable to lift their wings

Speaker: 00:13:18

Amy Martin: came from Arctic Alaska.

Speaker: 00:13:21

Amy Martin: It was heartbreaking to watch,

Speaker: 00:13:22

Amy Martin: and it left few people in the

Speaker: 00:13:24

Amy Martin: mood to open up more wells

Speaker: 00:13:26

Amy Martin: in the same region.

Speaker: 00:13:27

Amy Martin: The bill died.

Speaker: 00:13:29

CNN: Alaska is assessing what

Speaker: 00:13:30

CNN: environmental impact the spill

Speaker: 00:13:32

CNN: could have on Prince William

Speaker: 00:13:33

CNN: Sound.

Speaker: 00:13:34

CNN: Ask what the accident will cost

Speaker: 00:13:36

CNN: the company.

Speaker: 00:13:36

CNN: One executive said it

Speaker: 00:13:38

CNN: won't be cheap.

Speaker: 00:13:40

CNN: Dan Lennox, CNN reporting.

Speaker: 00:13:48

Amy Martin: The Exxon Valdez disaster

Speaker: 00:13:50

Amy Martin: obviously didn't help the cause

Speaker: 00:13:51

Amy Martin: of the people trying to get

Speaker: 00:13:52

Amy Martin: drilling approved in the

Speaker: 00:13:53

Amy Martin: refuge.

Speaker: 00:13:54

Amy Martin: But as Senator Johnston

Speaker: 00:13:56

Amy Martin: indicated, it definitely didn't

Speaker: 00:13:57

Amy Martin: stop them either.

Speaker: 00:13:58

Amy Martin: He helped to lead another

Speaker: 00:13:59

Amy Martin: attempt at getting

Speaker: 00:14:00

Amy Martin: congressional approval to drill

Speaker: 00:14:02

Amy Martin: in 1991.

Speaker: 00:14:03

Amy Martin: That bill failed, but another

Speaker: 00:14:05

Amy Martin: in 1995 made

Speaker: 00:14:06

Amy Martin: it all the way to President

Speaker: 00:14:08

Amy Martin: Clinton's desk.

Speaker: 00:14:09

Amy Martin: He vetoed it.

Speaker: 00:14:10

Amy Martin: And it goes on and on

Speaker: 00:14:12

Amy Martin: like this through the years

Speaker: 00:14:13

Amy Martin: with lawmakers on both sides

Speaker: 00:14:15

Amy Martin: trying to resolve the

Speaker: 00:14:16

Amy Martin: uncertainty hanging over the

Speaker: 00:14:18

Amy Martin: 1002 area, some

Speaker: 00:14:20

Amy Martin: trying to make drilling legal.

Speaker: 00:14:21

Amy Martin: Others trying to permanently

Speaker: 00:14:23

Amy Martin: protect the coastal plain,

Speaker: 00:14:24

Amy Martin: until the Tax Cuts

Speaker: 00:14:26

Amy Martin: and Jobs Act passed in December

Speaker: 00:14:28

Amy Martin: 2017.

Speaker: 00:14:31

Amy Martin: So you can probably see

Speaker: 00:14:33

Amy Martin: why this piece of history

Speaker: 00:14:34

Amy Martin: caught my attention.

Speaker: 00:14:36

Amy Martin: We've got the Gwich'in

Speaker: 00:14:37

Amy Martin: gathering, the first

Speaker: 00:14:38

Amy Martin: congressional hearings on

Speaker: 00:14:39

Amy Martin: climate change, a yes vote

Speaker: 00:14:41

Amy Martin: on a bill to drill in the

Speaker: 00:14:42

Amy Martin: refuge and the Exxon

Speaker: 00:14:43

Amy Martin: Valdez oil spill all

Speaker: 00:14:45

Amy Martin: happening within one nine month

Speaker: 00:14:47

Amy Martin: period.

Speaker: 00:14:48

Amy Martin: You can mix and match these

Speaker: 00:14:49

Amy Martin: events in dozens of ways, and

Speaker: 00:14:51

Amy Martin: they always have something to

Speaker: 00:14:52

Amy Martin: say to each other.

Speaker: 00:14:53

Amy Martin: And to me, one of the most

Speaker: 00:14:54

Amy Martin: interesting tensions here is

Speaker: 00:14:56

Amy Martin: Senator Johnston's role as

Speaker: 00:14:57

Amy Martin: both an advocate for climate

Speaker: 00:14:59

Amy Martin: change mitigation and

Speaker: 00:15:01

Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge.

Speaker: 00:15:02

Amy Martin: For 40 years, he's remained

Speaker: 00:15:04

Amy Martin: steadfast in support for

Speaker: 00:15:05

Amy Martin: drilling, even as he's

Speaker: 00:15:07

Amy Martin: also supported policies

Speaker: 00:15:09

Amy Martin: to limit carbon emissions.

Speaker: 00:15:10

Senator Johnston: In my view, the

Speaker: 00:15:12

Senator Johnston: carbon tax is the best way

Speaker: 00:15:14

Senator Johnston: to do it, and

Speaker: 00:15:16

Senator Johnston: we need to promote renewables

Speaker: 00:15:18

Senator Johnston: as fast as we reasonably

Speaker: 00:15:20

Senator Johnston: can.

Speaker: 00:15:21

Amy Martin: If you're concerned about

Speaker: 00:15:22

Amy Martin: global warming,

Speaker: 00:15:24

Amy Martin: what makes it okay to drill

Speaker: 00:15:25

Amy Martin: for more oil?

Speaker: 00:15:26

Amy Martin: How do you square those two

Speaker: 00:15:28

Amy Martin: positions?

Speaker: 00:15:29

Senator Johnston: Well, first of all, people

Speaker: 00:15:31

Senator Johnston: confuse production

Speaker: 00:15:34

Senator Johnston: with consumption.

Speaker: 00:15:36

Senator Johnston: I mean, if you shut down

Speaker: 00:15:38

Senator Johnston: all drilling in the United

Speaker: 00:15:40

Senator Johnston: States, which

Speaker: 00:15:41

Senator Johnston: nobody thinks you could, but if

Speaker: 00:15:43

Senator Johnston: you cut it back,

Speaker: 00:15:44

Senator Johnston: you would simply import the

Speaker: 00:15:46

Senator Johnston: oil from

Speaker: 00:15:48

Senator Johnston: Saudi Arabia and from Russia.

Speaker: 00:15:50

Senator Johnston: And surely people

Speaker: 00:15:52

Senator Johnston: cannot think it is in the

Speaker: 00:15:53

Senator Johnston: interest of the United States

Speaker: 00:15:55

Senator Johnston: to import

Speaker: 00:15:57

Senator Johnston: from those countries as

Speaker: 00:15:59

Senator Johnston: opposed to producing

Speaker: 00:16:00

Senator Johnston: it with the 10 million jobs

Speaker: 00:16:02

Senator Johnston: that oil and gas produces

Speaker: 00:16:04

Senator Johnston: in the United States.

Speaker: 00:16:06

Amy Martin: To get inside Senator

Speaker: 00:16:07

Amy Martin: Johnston's head here, think

Speaker: 00:16:09

Amy Martin: about it like this.

Speaker: 00:16:10

Amy Martin: The oil we burn is going to

Speaker: 00:16:11

Amy Martin: warm the planet, whether it was

Speaker: 00:16:13

Amy Martin: drilled in Alaska or Siberia.

Speaker: 00:16:15

Amy Martin: So why not drill it in the U.S.

Speaker: 00:16:17

Amy Martin: where we have stronger

Speaker: 00:16:18

Amy Martin: environmental protections

Speaker: 00:16:20

Amy Martin: and we get to make some money

Speaker: 00:16:21

Amy Martin: off of it?

Speaker: 00:16:21

Senator Johnston: The amount you burn is

Speaker: 00:16:23

Senator Johnston: dependent on demand.

Speaker: 00:16:25

Senator Johnston: So it's demand that determines

Speaker: 00:16:27

Senator Johnston: the amount that is consumed.

Speaker: 00:16:30

Amy Martin: This argument sounds good at

Speaker: 00:16:32

Amy Martin: first blush.

Speaker: 00:16:33

Amy Martin: If you're worried about carbon

Speaker: 00:16:34

Amy Martin: emissions, reduce demand for

Speaker: 00:16:36

Amy Martin: oil. And until you do that,

Speaker: 00:16:38

Amy Martin: drill at home and make some

Speaker: 00:16:39

Amy Martin: money.

Speaker: 00:16:40

Amy Martin: But the thing is, the demand

Speaker: 00:16:42

Amy Martin: and supply of oil

Speaker: 00:16:44

Amy Martin: can't be separated from each

Speaker: 00:16:45

Amy Martin: other as neatly as Senator

Speaker: 00:16:47

Amy Martin: Johnston makes it sound.

Speaker: 00:16:48

Amy Martin: Oil isn't like ice cream,

Speaker: 00:16:50

Amy Martin: people can't simply decide not

Speaker: 00:16:52

Amy Martin: to use it anymore, just out of

Speaker: 00:16:53

Amy Martin: choice.

Speaker: 00:16:54

Amy Martin: If we could, solving global

Speaker: 00:16:56

Amy Martin: warming would be easy.

Speaker: 00:16:57

Amy Martin: But it's not because in

Speaker: 00:16:59

Amy Martin: the real world path that we're

Speaker: 00:17:01

Amy Martin: on. Fossil fuels are

Speaker: 00:17:02

Amy Martin: embedded into everything we do.

Speaker: 00:17:05

Amy Martin: We use them in the production

Speaker: 00:17:06

Amy Martin: and transport of our food.

Speaker: 00:17:07

Amy Martin: Our hospitals run on oil, and

Speaker: 00:17:09

Amy Martin: so do our militaries and banks

Speaker: 00:17:11

Amy Martin: and schools.

Speaker: 00:17:12

Amy Martin: If enough individuals make

Speaker: 00:17:13

Amy Martin: choices to reduce demand, it

Speaker: 00:17:15

Amy Martin: can certainly make an impact.

Speaker: 00:17:17

Amy Martin: But no one person or group

Speaker: 00:17:19

Amy Martin: or even one country has the

Speaker: 00:17:20

Amy Martin: power all by itself to

Speaker: 00:17:22

Amy Martin: completely eliminate demand for

Speaker: 00:17:24

Amy Martin: oil.

Speaker: 00:17:25

Amy Martin: That's a huge group effort

Speaker: 00:17:26

Amy Martin: which requires changes in laws

Speaker: 00:17:28

Amy Martin: and policy.

Speaker: 00:17:29

Amy Martin: And as the climate crisis

Speaker: 00:17:31

Amy Martin: worsens, that's exactly

Speaker: 00:17:32

Amy Martin: what many people are pushing

Speaker: 00:17:33

Amy Martin: for.

Speaker: 00:17:34

Amy Martin: But when citizens take that

Speaker: 00:17:36

Amy Martin: route and fight for the policy

Speaker: 00:17:37

Amy Martin: changes that would reduce the

Speaker: 00:17:39

Amy Martin: demand for fossil fuels,

Speaker: 00:17:41

Amy Martin: oil companies fight back.

Speaker: 00:17:42

Amy Martin: Hard, and they have massive

Speaker: 00:17:45

Amy Martin: resources at their disposal in

Speaker: 00:17:46

Amy Martin: that fight.

Speaker: 00:17:47

Amy Martin: The biggest oil companies have

Speaker: 00:17:49

Amy Martin: annual revenues far greater

Speaker: 00:17:51

Amy Martin: than the revenues of most

Speaker: 00:17:52

Amy Martin: countries.

Speaker: 00:17:53

Amy Martin: In 2017, for instance,

Speaker: 00:17:55

Amy Martin: Exxon brought in more money

Speaker: 00:17:56

Amy Martin: than the government of

Speaker: 00:17:57

Amy Martin: Switzerland or Saudi Arabia.

Speaker: 00:17:59

Amy Martin: BP and Shell made even

Speaker: 00:18:01

Amy Martin: more.

Speaker: 00:18:02

Amy Martin: And that money means power.

Speaker: 00:18:04

Amy Martin: It means access to politicians

Speaker: 00:18:06

Amy Martin: at the highest levels and

Speaker: 00:18:08

Amy Martin: influence over the laws that

Speaker: 00:18:09

Amy Martin: have kept our societies

Speaker: 00:18:11

Amy Martin: addicted to oil.

Speaker: 00:18:12

Amy Martin: Senator Johnston has to know

Speaker: 00:18:14

Amy Martin: about the money and lobbying

Speaker: 00:18:16

Amy Martin: muscle that oil companies apply

Speaker: 00:18:17

Amy Martin: towards stopping citizen

Speaker: 00:18:19

Amy Martin: efforts to get off of oil.

Speaker: 00:18:20

Amy Martin: Because in addition to being a

Speaker: 00:18:22

Amy Martin: U.S. senator, he served

Speaker: 00:18:24

Amy Martin: on the board of directors of a

Speaker: 00:18:25

Amy Martin: major oil company from 1997

Speaker: 00:18:27

Amy Martin: to 2004.

Speaker: 00:18:29

Senator Johnston: Yes, I was on the board of

Speaker: 00:18:31

Senator Johnston: Chevron.

Speaker: 00:18:32

Amy Martin: And do you think

Speaker: 00:18:33

Amy Martin: that that has influenced you to

Speaker: 00:18:35

Amy Martin: make you more open to drilling?

Speaker: 00:18:37

Senator Johnston: I, I've always

Speaker: 00:18:39

Senator Johnston: been open to the concept

Speaker: 00:18:41

Senator Johnston: of drilling, so it

Speaker: 00:18:43

Senator Johnston: did not really have any effect

Speaker: 00:18:45

Senator Johnston: on it. I support

Speaker: 00:18:47

Senator Johnston: production in the United

Speaker: 00:18:49

Senator Johnston: States, clean production,

Speaker: 00:18:51

Senator Johnston: and done in

Speaker: 00:18:53

Senator Johnston: an environmentally responsible

Speaker: 00:18:54

Senator Johnston: way.

Speaker: 00:18:55

Amy Martin: No matter how many ways I try

Speaker: 00:18:57

Amy Martin: to get inside this

Speaker: 00:18:58

Amy Martin: contradiction between Senator

Speaker: 00:19:00

Amy Martin: Johnston's pro-drilling,

Speaker: 00:19:02

Amy Martin: pro-climate action stance.

Speaker: 00:19:04

Amy Martin: His answer was the same.

Speaker: 00:19:05

Senator Johnston: I mean, look, it's

Speaker: 00:19:07

Senator Johnston: is very plain.

Speaker: 00:19:10

Senator Johnston: The amount of oil that is

Speaker: 00:19:12

Senator Johnston: produced in the United States

Speaker: 00:19:14

Senator Johnston: does not determine how much

Speaker: 00:19:16

Senator Johnston: is consumed

Speaker: 00:19:17

Senator Johnston: in the United States.

Speaker: 00:19:23

Amy Martin: That is a true statement.

Speaker: 00:19:24

Amy Martin: But given the whole context

Speaker: 00:19:26

Amy Martin: here, it's a pretty specious

Speaker: 00:19:27

Amy Martin: argument.

Speaker: 00:19:29

Amy Martin: Does solving the climate crisis

Speaker: 00:19:30

Amy Martin: require humans to radically

Speaker: 00:19:32

Amy Martin: reduce our demand for oil?

Speaker: 00:19:34

Amy Martin: Absolutely.

Speaker: 00:19:35

Amy Martin: Are oil companies simply

Speaker: 00:19:37

Amy Martin: neutral actors responding

Speaker: 00:19:39

Amy Martin: to that demand?

Speaker: 00:19:40

Amy Martin: Absolutely not.

Speaker: 00:19:41

Amy Martin: They're very involved in

Speaker: 00:19:43

Amy Martin: shaping that market.

Speaker: 00:19:44

Amy Martin: It comes down to this.

Speaker: 00:19:46

Amy Martin: You can't spend billions

Speaker: 00:19:48

Amy Martin: of dollars for decades

Speaker: 00:19:49

Amy Martin: blocking attempts to reduce

Speaker: 00:19:51

Amy Martin: demand and then simply

Speaker: 00:19:52

Amy Martin: shrug your shoulders and say,

Speaker: 00:19:54

Amy Martin: "hey, don't blame us.

Speaker: 00:19:56

Amy Martin: We're just giving the people

Speaker: 00:19:57

Amy Martin: what they want."

Speaker: 00:19:58

Amy Martin: Senator Johnston is definitely

Speaker: 00:20:00

Amy Martin: not alone in making this

Speaker: 00:20:02

Amy Martin: argument, though.

Speaker: 00:20:03

Amy Martin: And as we've already discussed,

Speaker: 00:20:04

Amy Martin: he's also not alone in holding

Speaker: 00:20:06

Amy Martin: his concerns about climate

Speaker: 00:20:07

Amy Martin: change in one hand and his

Speaker: 00:20:09

Amy Martin: desire to drill in the refuge

Speaker: 00:20:11

Amy Martin: in the other.

Speaker: 00:20:13

Lisa Murkowski: And I have suggested that

Speaker: 00:20:14

Lisa Murkowski: climate change is absolutely,

Speaker: 00:20:16

Lisa Murkowski: absolutely

Speaker: 00:20:18

Lisa Murkowski: one one lens

Speaker: 00:20:20

Lisa Murkowski: that we must look at.

Speaker: 00:20:21

Amy Martin: This is Senator Lisa Murkowski

Speaker: 00:20:23

Amy Martin: speaking from the stage of the

Speaker: 00:20:24

Amy Martin: Arctic Frontiers Conference in

Speaker: 00:20:26

Amy Martin: Norway in 2019.

Speaker: 00:20:28

Lisa Murkowski: But we must never forget the

Speaker: 00:20:29

Lisa Murkowski: other aspects

Speaker: 00:20:32

Lisa Murkowski: of the Arctic, the people who

Speaker: 00:20:33

Lisa Murkowski: live and work and raise their

Speaker: 00:20:34

Lisa Murkowski: families there,

Speaker: 00:20:36

Lisa Murkowski: the economic opportunities,

Speaker: 00:20:39

Lisa Murkowski: the environmental opportunities

Speaker: 00:20:41

Lisa Murkowski: and challenges.

Speaker: 00:20:42

Lisa Murkowski: It is, it is bigger than

Speaker: 00:20:43

Lisa Murkowski: just one issue.

Speaker: 00:20:47

Amy Martin: After two years of reporting on

Speaker: 00:20:49

Amy Martin: this region, I couldn't agree

Speaker: 00:20:50

Amy Martin: more that the Arctic is bigger

Speaker: 00:20:52

Amy Martin: than just one issue.

Speaker: 00:20:54

Amy Martin: But what confused me as I

Speaker: 00:20:55

Amy Martin: listened to this speech is that

Speaker: 00:20:57

Amy Martin: climate change is not

Speaker: 00:20:58

Amy Martin: just one issue.

Speaker: 00:21:00

Amy Martin: It directly affects all the

Speaker: 00:21:01

Amy Martin: things Senator Murkowski listed

Speaker: 00:21:03

Amy Martin: human welfare, economics,

Speaker: 00:21:05

Amy Martin: security and so much more.

Speaker: 00:21:08

Amy Martin: I had the opportunity to

Speaker: 00:21:09

Amy Martin: interview Senator Murkowski

Speaker: 00:21:11

Amy Martin: very briefly at that

Speaker: 00:21:12

Amy Martin: conference, and I asked her

Speaker: 00:21:13

Amy Martin: this.

Speaker: 00:21:15

Amy Martin: Can you make the best possible

Speaker: 00:21:16

Amy Martin: case for why we should drill

Speaker: 00:21:18

Amy Martin: in the Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:21:19

Amy Martin: Refuge, given that you

Speaker: 00:21:21

Amy Martin: are such a leader among

Speaker: 00:21:22

Amy Martin: Republicans in saying climate

Speaker: 00:21:23

Amy Martin: change is real and it's

Speaker: 00:21:24

Amy Martin: important and it's now?

Speaker: 00:21:25

Lisa Murkowski: Well, I think if you if you

Speaker: 00:21:27

Lisa Murkowski: take the perspective that

Speaker: 00:21:28

Lisa Murkowski: we should never utilize

Speaker: 00:21:31

Lisa Murkowski: our our fossil

Speaker: 00:21:33

Lisa Murkowski: fuels, you should buy into

Speaker: 00:21:34

Lisa Murkowski: the keep it in the ground

Speaker: 00:21:36

Lisa Murkowski: theory.

Speaker: 00:21:38

Lisa Murkowski: Help me out, help me

Speaker: 00:21:39

Lisa Murkowski: out here. How, how are you

Speaker: 00:21:41

Lisa Murkowski: going to get to

Speaker: 00:21:43

Lisa Murkowski: that that that

Speaker: 00:21:45

Lisa Murkowski: that place, that idyllic

Speaker: 00:21:47

Lisa Murkowski: place where we

Speaker: 00:21:48

Lisa Murkowski: will be able to

Speaker: 00:21:50

Lisa Murkowski: to power not

Speaker: 00:21:52

Lisa Murkowski: only this country, but power

Speaker: 00:21:53

Lisa Murkowski: the world off of our renewable

Speaker: 00:21:55

Lisa Murkowski: resources.

Speaker: 00:21:56

Lisa Murkowski: We cannot get there from

Speaker: 00:21:58

Lisa Murkowski: here today without a

Speaker: 00:21:59

Lisa Murkowski: transition.

Speaker: 00:22:00

Lisa Murkowski: We cannot do it.

Speaker: 00:22:02

Lisa Murkowski: And so I would rather

Speaker: 00:22:04

Lisa Murkowski: be a nation

Speaker: 00:22:06

Lisa Murkowski: who is providing a resource

Speaker: 00:22:09

Lisa Murkowski: in a manner and

Speaker: 00:22:11

Lisa Murkowski: in a process

Speaker: 00:22:14

Lisa Murkowski: that is more environmentally

Speaker: 00:22:16

Lisa Murkowski: regulated

Speaker: 00:22:18

Lisa Murkowski: than the other parts

Speaker: 00:22:20

Lisa Murkowski: of the world where

Speaker: 00:22:22

Lisa Murkowski: they are accessing the same

Speaker: 00:22:24

Lisa Murkowski: resource.

Speaker: 00:22:25

Lisa Murkowski: They are doing

Speaker: 00:22:27

Lisa Murkowski: so without the same level

Speaker: 00:22:29

Lisa Murkowski: of environmental standard and

Speaker: 00:22:31

Lisa Murkowski: safeguard and

Speaker: 00:22:32

Lisa Murkowski: in a way that

Speaker: 00:22:35

Lisa Murkowski: is is doubly

Speaker: 00:22:37

Lisa Murkowski: destructive, if you will.

Speaker: 00:22:39

Lisa Murkowski: So do we need

Speaker: 00:22:41

Lisa Murkowski: to to lead

Speaker: 00:22:43

Lisa Murkowski: in in the transition

Speaker: 00:22:45

Lisa Murkowski: that takes us

Speaker: 00:22:47

Lisa Murkowski: to new fuels, new sources

Speaker: 00:22:50

Lisa Murkowski: of energy?

Speaker: 00:22:51

Lisa Murkowski: Absolutely.

Speaker: 00:22:53

Lisa Murkowski: But in order to do so,

Speaker: 00:22:54

Lisa Murkowski: it requires,

Speaker: 00:22:56

Lisa Murkowski: it requires a level of

Speaker: 00:22:57

Lisa Murkowski: resource.

Speaker: 00:22:58

Lisa Murkowski: You can't make this happen

Speaker: 00:23:00

Lisa Murkowski: just by wishing it.

Speaker: 00:23:01

Lisa Murkowski: You just can't make it happen

Speaker: 00:23:03

Lisa Murkowski: by snapping your fingers.

Speaker: 00:23:04

Lisa Murkowski: So we have to have the

Speaker: 00:23:05

Lisa Murkowski: resources to

Speaker: 00:23:07

Lisa Murkowski: to allow for a transition.

Speaker: 00:23:09

Amy Martin: Our short conversation ended

Speaker: 00:23:11

Amy Martin: there. Senator Murkowski got

Speaker: 00:23:13

Amy Martin: whisked away to her next

Speaker: 00:23:14

Amy Martin: appointment, and I was left

Speaker: 00:23:16

Amy Martin: feeling unsatisfied

Speaker: 00:23:17

Amy Martin: because she answered a question

Speaker: 00:23:19

Amy Martin: I didn't ask.

Speaker: 00:23:21

Amy Martin: I didn't promote any theory or

Speaker: 00:23:22

Amy Martin: suggest that we could get

Speaker: 00:23:23

Amy Martin: through this transition without

Speaker: 00:23:25

Amy Martin: oil.

Speaker: 00:23:26

Amy Martin: I asked her to explain

Speaker: 00:23:27

Amy Martin: why we should drill in the

Speaker: 00:23:29

Amy Martin: Arctic National Wildlife

Speaker: 00:23:30

Amy Martin: Refuge.

Speaker: 00:23:31

Amy Martin: And those are very different

Speaker: 00:23:32

Amy Martin: questions, because

Speaker: 00:23:34

Amy Martin: even if we grant that we'll

Speaker: 00:23:35

Amy Martin: need oil and gas to power

Speaker: 00:23:37

Amy Martin: us through a transition toward

Speaker: 00:23:38

Amy Martin: renewables, it's not

Speaker: 00:23:40

Amy Martin: at all clear that we need to

Speaker: 00:23:41

Amy Martin: drill on the coastal plain.

Speaker: 00:23:44

Amy Martin: There's a lot of oil left in

Speaker: 00:23:45

Amy Martin: the fields that are already in

Speaker: 00:23:47

Amy Martin: production around the world,

Speaker: 00:23:48

Amy Martin: and even just in Alaska.

Speaker: 00:23:50

Amy Martin: Almost the entire North Slope

Speaker: 00:23:52

Amy Martin: is open for business.

Speaker: 00:23:53

Amy Martin: The refuge is one of the only

Speaker: 00:23:55

Amy Martin: areas where drilling has been

Speaker: 00:23:56

Amy Martin: restricted there.

Speaker: 00:23:58

Amy Martin: I followed up multiple times

Speaker: 00:24:00

Amy Martin: with Senator Murkowski's

Speaker: 00:24:01

Amy Martin: office, hoping to have the

Speaker: 00:24:02

Amy Martin: chance to dig in deeper with

Speaker: 00:24:03

Amy Martin: her, but I wasn't granted any

Speaker: 00:24:05

Amy Martin: additional interviews.

Speaker: 00:24:07

Amy Martin: I was able to pose some

Speaker: 00:24:09

Amy Martin: of those questions to a

Speaker: 00:24:10

Amy Martin: different Alaskan, though.

Speaker: 00:24:12

Kara Moriarty: It's not about getting the oil

Speaker: 00:24:13

Kara Moriarty: right now.

Speaker: 00:24:14

Kara Moriarty: It is about having

Speaker: 00:24:16

Kara Moriarty: the oil for the

Speaker: 00:24:18

Kara Moriarty: next generation to come.

Speaker: 00:24:21

Amy Martin: This is Kara Moriarty of the

Speaker: 00:24:22

Amy Martin: Alaska Oil and Gas Association.

Speaker: 00:24:24

Amy Martin: We'll hear more from her after

Speaker: 00:24:26

Amy Martin: this short break.

Speaker: 00:24:34

Matt Herlihy: Hi, my name's Matt Herlihy and

Speaker: 00:24:36

Matt Herlihy: I've been a Threshold listener

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Matt Herlihy: volunteer board members of the

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Matt Herlihy: nonprofit organization that

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Matt Herlihy: makes Threshold.

Speaker: 00:24:46

Matt Herlihy: Over the past seven plus

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Matt Herlihy: years, I've had this unique,

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Matt Herlihy: firsthand look at just how much

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Matt Herlihy: it. Threshold's Year end

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Speaker: 00:25:55

Amy Martin: Hi Threshold listeners.

Speaker: 00:25:56

Amy Martin: Do you ever find yourself

Speaker: 00:25:57

Amy Martin: wondering what businesses are

Speaker: 00:25:59

Amy Martin: doing and what more they should

Speaker: 00:26:00

Amy Martin: do to confront climate

Speaker: 00:26:02

Amy Martin: change?

Speaker: 00:26:03

Amy Martin: Then you should check out

Speaker: 00:26:04

Amy Martin: Climate Rising, the award

Speaker: 00:26:06

Amy Martin: winning podcast from Harvard

Speaker: 00:26:07

Amy Martin: Business School.

Speaker: 00:26:09

Amy Martin: Climate Rising gives you a

Speaker: 00:26:10

Amy Martin: behind the scenes look at how

Speaker: 00:26:12

Amy Martin: top business leaders are taking

Speaker: 00:26:14

Amy Martin: on the challenge of climate

Speaker: 00:26:15

Amy Martin: change.

Speaker: 00:26:16

Amy Martin: The show covers cutting edge

Speaker: 00:26:18

Amy Martin: solutions from leveraging

Speaker: 00:26:19

Amy Martin: A.I. and carbon markets

Speaker: 00:26:21

Amy Martin: to sharing stories that inspire

Speaker: 00:26:23

Amy Martin: climate action.

Speaker: 00:26:25

Amy Martin: Recent episodes feature

Speaker: 00:26:26

Amy Martin: insightful conversations with

Speaker: 00:26:28

Amy Martin: leaders like Netflix's first

Speaker: 00:26:30

Amy Martin: sustainability officer, Emma

Speaker: 00:26:31

Amy Martin: Steward, who discusses how the

Speaker: 00:26:33

Amy Martin: global entertainment giant

Speaker: 00:26:34

Amy Martin: uses its platform to promote

Speaker: 00:26:36

Amy Martin: climate awareness.

Speaker: 00:26:38

Amy Martin: We'll also hear from CNN's

Speaker: 00:26:39

Amy Martin: chief climate correspondent

Speaker: 00:26:41

Amy Martin: Bill Weir about the importance

Speaker: 00:26:43

Amy Martin: of integrating climate change

Speaker: 00:26:44

Amy Martin: into news coverage.

Speaker: 00:26:46

Amy Martin: Each episode dives deep into

Speaker: 00:26:48

Amy Martin: the challenges and

Speaker: 00:26:49

Amy Martin: opportunities that climate

Speaker: 00:26:51

Amy Martin: change presents to

Speaker: 00:26:52

Amy Martin: entrepreneurs and innovators.

Speaker: 00:26:54

Amy Martin: Listen to Climate Rising

Speaker: 00:26:56

Amy Martin: every other Wednesday on Apple

Speaker: 00:26:57

Amy Martin: Podcasts, Spotify

Speaker: 00:27:00

Amy Martin: or wherever you get your

Speaker: 00:27:01

Amy Martin: podcasts.

Speaker: 00:27:05

Dallas Taylor: I'm Dallas Taylor, host of

Speaker: 00:27:07

Dallas Taylor: 20,000Hz,

Speaker: 00:27:09

Dallas Taylor: a podcast that reveals the

Speaker: 00:27:10

Dallas Taylor: untold stories behind the

Speaker: 00:27:12

Dallas Taylor: sounds of our world.

Speaker: 00:27:13

Dallas Taylor: We've uncovered the incredible

Speaker: 00:27:15

Dallas Taylor: intelligence of talking

Speaker: 00:27:16

Dallas Taylor: parrots.

Speaker: 00:27:17

Unknown: Basically, birdbrain

Speaker: 00:27:19

Unknown: was a pejorative term.

Speaker: 00:27:20

Unknown: And here I had this bird

Speaker: 00:27:22

Unknown: that was doing the same types

Speaker: 00:27:24

Unknown: of tasks the primates.

Speaker: 00:27:26

Dallas Taylor: We've investigated the bonding

Speaker: 00:27:27

Dallas Taylor: power of music.

Speaker: 00:27:29

Unknown: There's an intimacy there in

Speaker: 00:27:30

Unknown: communicating through

Speaker: 00:27:32

Unknown: the medium of music

Speaker: 00:27:33

Unknown: that can be really a

Speaker: 00:27:35

Unknown: powerful force for bringing

Speaker: 00:27:36

Unknown: people together.

Speaker: 00:27:38

Dallas Taylor: We've explored the subtle

Speaker: 00:27:39

Dallas Taylor: nuances of the human voice.

Speaker: 00:27:41

Unknown: We have to remember that humans

Speaker: 00:27:42

Unknown: over many hundreds of thousands

Speaker: 00:27:44

Unknown: of years of evolution have

Speaker: 00:27:45

Unknown: become extremely attuned

Speaker: 00:27:47

Unknown: to the sounds of each other's

Speaker: 00:27:48

Unknown: voices.

Speaker: 00:27:49

Dallas Taylor: And we've revealed why a famous

Speaker: 00:27:51

Dallas Taylor: composer wrote a piece made

Speaker: 00:27:52

Dallas Taylor: entirely of silence.

Speaker: 00:27:54

Unknown: I think that's a really

Speaker: 00:27:56

Unknown: potentially quite useful and

Speaker: 00:27:57

Unknown: quite profound experience to

Speaker: 00:27:59

Unknown: have.

Speaker: 00:27:59

Dallas Taylor: Subscribe to 20,000Hz

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Dallas Taylor: right here in your podcast

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Dallas Taylor: player.

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Dallas Taylor: I'll meet you there.

Speaker: 00:28:10

Kara Moriarty: I came to Alaska as a

Speaker: 00:28:11

Kara Moriarty: schoolteacher, so I

Speaker: 00:28:13

Kara Moriarty: taught school in a small

Speaker: 00:28:14

Kara Moriarty: Inupiaq village called Atqasuk,

Speaker: 00:28:16

Kara Moriarty: which is 50 miles south of

Speaker: 00:28:17

Kara Moriarty: Barrow.

Speaker: 00:28:18

Amy Martin: Welcome back to Threshold, I'm

Speaker: 00:28:19

Amy Martin: Amy Martin, and I'm talking

Speaker: 00:28:21

Amy Martin: with Kara Moriarty in

Speaker: 00:28:22

Amy Martin: Anchorage, Alaska.

Speaker: 00:28:24

Amy Martin: Kara grew up on a ranch in

Speaker: 00:28:25

Amy Martin: South Dakota, and she came to

Speaker: 00:28:27

Amy Martin: Alaska, planning to teach just

Speaker: 00:28:29

Amy Martin: for a year.

Speaker: 00:28:30

Amy Martin: After that year was up, she

Speaker: 00:28:31

Amy Martin: left to go work for South

Speaker: 00:28:32

Amy Martin: Dakota's congressman.

Speaker: 00:28:34

Amy Martin: But..

Speaker: 00:28:35

Kara Moriarty: Kept in touch with my Bush

Speaker: 00:28:36

Kara Moriarty: pilot that I'd met.

Speaker: 00:28:38

Kara Moriarty: And

Speaker: 00:28:40

Kara Moriarty: we just celebrated our 20th

Speaker: 00:28:41

Kara Moriarty: wedding anniversary last week.

Speaker: 00:28:43

Amy Martin: I had a feeling.

Speaker: 00:28:44

Kara Moriarty: Yeah. So, yeah, you know,

Speaker: 00:28:46

Kara Moriarty: I was the come for one year

Speaker: 00:28:47

Kara Moriarty: and then come back to marry

Speaker: 00:28:49

Kara Moriarty: your pilot and yeah, so

Speaker: 00:28:51

Kara Moriarty: kind of a little bit of a

Speaker: 00:28:52

Kara Moriarty: Alaska romance story, I guess,

Speaker: 00:28:54

Kara Moriarty: if you will, for your

Speaker: 00:28:55

Kara Moriarty: listeners.

Speaker: 00:28:56

Amy Martin: Kara is now the president of

Speaker: 00:28:57

Amy Martin: the Alaska Oil and Gas

Speaker: 00:28:58

Amy Martin: Association.

Speaker: 00:28:59

Kara Moriarty: And we're the professional

Speaker: 00:29:01

Kara Moriarty: trade association for the oil

Speaker: 00:29:02

Kara Moriarty: and gas industry in Alaska.

Speaker: 00:29:04

Kara Moriarty: So our job

Speaker: 00:29:06

Kara Moriarty: is to advocate on behalf

Speaker: 00:29:07

Kara Moriarty: of the entire industry to

Speaker: 00:29:09

Kara Moriarty: continue the long term

Speaker: 00:29:11

Kara Moriarty: viability of the industry for

Speaker: 00:29:12

Kara Moriarty: the state.

Speaker: 00:29:13

Amy Martin: I met Kara in her office

Speaker: 00:29:15

Amy Martin: in August of 2019.

Speaker: 00:29:16

Amy Martin: You'll hear some fans flipping

Speaker: 00:29:18

Amy Martin: on and off a bit as we talk.

Speaker: 00:29:20

Amy Martin: And she started by helping me

Speaker: 00:29:21

Amy Martin: understand all the steps

Speaker: 00:29:23

Amy Martin: that happen in between holding

Speaker: 00:29:25

Amy Martin: a lease sale and actually

Speaker: 00:29:26

Amy Martin: beginning to extract oil on the

Speaker: 00:29:28

Amy Martin: coastal plain.

Speaker: 00:29:29

Amy Martin: And just a reminder, a lease

Speaker: 00:29:30

Amy Martin: sale is an auction in

Speaker: 00:29:32

Amy Martin: which oil companies will bid

Speaker: 00:29:34

Amy Martin: for the right to drill in the

Speaker: 00:29:35

Amy Martin: refuge.

Speaker: 00:29:36

Kara Moriarty: You have a lease sale.

Speaker: 00:29:38

Kara Moriarty: Well, first of all, we know the

Speaker: 00:29:39

Kara Moriarty: lease will be litigated because

Speaker: 00:29:40

Kara Moriarty: as a tool in the environmental

Speaker: 00:29:42

Kara Moriarty: activist toolbox that is

Speaker: 00:29:44

Kara Moriarty: often used.

Speaker: 00:29:46

Kara Moriarty: So we know it will be

Speaker: 00:29:47

Kara Moriarty: litigated. So then you get

Speaker: 00:29:48

Kara Moriarty: through the litigation 2 to 3

Speaker: 00:29:49

Kara Moriarty: years later and they put

Speaker: 00:29:50

Kara Moriarty: together their exploration

Speaker: 00:29:52

Kara Moriarty: plans.

Speaker: 00:29:53

Kara Moriarty: Those will probably be

Speaker: 00:29:54

Kara Moriarty: litigated, but then it'll take

Speaker: 00:29:55

Kara Moriarty: 4 to 5 years most likely

Speaker: 00:29:57

Kara Moriarty: to explore because we have

Speaker: 00:29:59

Kara Moriarty: a very limited exploration

Speaker: 00:30:01

Kara Moriarty: season.

Speaker: 00:30:02

Amy Martin: The exploration process

Speaker: 00:30:03

Amy Martin: involves things like seismic

Speaker: 00:30:05

Amy Martin: testing and other ways of

Speaker: 00:30:06

Amy Martin: figuring out where the oil is.

Speaker: 00:30:08

Amy Martin: And on the North Slope,

Speaker: 00:30:09

Amy Martin: companies can only explore

Speaker: 00:30:11

Amy Martin: when it's cold enough to make

Speaker: 00:30:12

Amy Martin: ice roads because those roads

Speaker: 00:30:14

Amy Martin: protect the tundra from heavy

Speaker: 00:30:15

Amy Martin: equipment.

Speaker: 00:30:17

Amy Martin: But as the Arctic is freezing

Speaker: 00:30:18

Amy Martin: later in the fall and thawing

Speaker: 00:30:20

Amy Martin: sooner in the spring, it's

Speaker: 00:30:22

Amy Martin: getting harder to keep ice

Speaker: 00:30:23

Amy Martin: roads frozen.

Speaker: 00:30:25

Amy Martin: Companies have found

Speaker: 00:30:25

Amy Martin: workarounds like pre-packing

Speaker: 00:30:27

Amy Martin: the tundra with snow to keep

Speaker: 00:30:28

Amy Martin: the exploration window open

Speaker: 00:30:30

Amy Martin: as long as possible.

Speaker: 00:30:32

Amy Martin: But in the long run, this is

Speaker: 00:30:33

Amy Martin: one of the great ironies of oil

Speaker: 00:30:35

Amy Martin: development in the far north.

Speaker: 00:30:37

Amy Martin: The infrastructure for Arctic

Speaker: 00:30:38

Amy Martin: drilling is built to work on

Speaker: 00:30:40

Amy Martin: snow and ice, but because

Speaker: 00:30:41

Amy Martin: of the burning of the very

Speaker: 00:30:43

Amy Martin: fossil fuels being pulled out

Speaker: 00:30:44

Amy Martin: of the ground, that snow

Speaker: 00:30:46

Amy Martin: and ice is melting.

Speaker: 00:30:48

Amy Martin: There's a whole lot more to be

Speaker: 00:30:49

Amy Martin: said on that topic.

Speaker: 00:30:50

Amy Martin: But let's get back to Kara's

Speaker: 00:30:52

Amy Martin: timeline here.

Speaker: 00:30:53

Kara Moriarty: So exploration will take 4

Speaker: 00:30:55

Kara Moriarty: or 5 years.

Speaker: 00:30:56

Kara Moriarty: And then assuming all that

Speaker: 00:30:57

Kara Moriarty: works out, then you've got

Speaker: 00:30:59

Kara Moriarty: a 5 to 7 year development

Speaker: 00:31:01

Kara Moriarty: plan before you reach

Speaker: 00:31:02

Kara Moriarty: production.

Speaker: 00:31:03

Kara Moriarty: So when it's all said and done,

Speaker: 00:31:05

Kara Moriarty: it's at least, conservative,

Speaker: 00:31:07

Kara Moriarty: a dozen years.

Speaker: 00:31:09

Amy Martin: The Trump administration has

Speaker: 00:31:11

Amy Martin: pledged that the first lease

Speaker: 00:31:12

Amy Martin: sale will be held this winter.

Speaker: 00:31:14

Amy Martin: And as Kara predicted,

Speaker: 00:31:16

Amy Martin: one lawsuit has already been

Speaker: 00:31:17

Amy Martin: filed by a group of

Speaker: 00:31:18

Amy Martin: conservation organizations and

Speaker: 00:31:20

Amy Martin: the Gwich'in Steering

Speaker: 00:31:21

Amy Martin: Committee.

Speaker: 00:31:22

Amy Martin: They say the government is

Speaker: 00:31:23

Amy Martin: withholding information on the

Speaker: 00:31:25

Amy Martin: process of tribal consultation

Speaker: 00:31:27

Amy Martin: and environmental review

Speaker: 00:31:28

Amy Martin: required by law before

Speaker: 00:31:30

Amy Martin: leasing can begin.

Speaker: 00:31:32

Amy Martin: And this will likely be the

Speaker: 00:31:33

Amy Martin: first of many lawsuits.

Speaker: 00:31:35

Amy Martin: Several organizations have

Speaker: 00:31:37

Amy Martin: claimed that the environmental

Speaker: 00:31:38

Amy Martin: review process was rushed

Speaker: 00:31:40

Amy Martin: and doesn't provide sufficient

Speaker: 00:31:41

Amy Martin: analysis of the true costs

Speaker: 00:31:43

Amy Martin: of drilling to the land, water,

Speaker: 00:31:45

Amy Martin: air and animals on the coastal

Speaker: 00:31:46

Amy Martin: plain.

Speaker: 00:31:48

Amy Martin: We'll be following all of this

Speaker: 00:31:49

Amy Martin: in coming months.

Speaker: 00:31:51

Amy Martin: But if things do go roughly

Speaker: 00:31:53

Amy Martin: according to the timeline Kara

Speaker: 00:31:55

Amy Martin: laid out, drilling might

Speaker: 00:31:56

Amy Martin: begin on the coastal plain in

Speaker: 00:31:58

Amy Martin: the early 2030s.

Speaker: 00:32:00

Amy Martin: And as we talk through

Speaker: 00:32:01

Amy Martin: different issues surrounding

Speaker: 00:32:02

Amy Martin: oil development in the refuge,

Speaker: 00:32:04

Amy Martin: Kara brought up the economic

Speaker: 00:32:05

Amy Martin: benefits that the oil industry

Speaker: 00:32:07

Amy Martin: has brought to the North Slope

Speaker: 00:32:08

Amy Martin: and her opinion that the risks

Speaker: 00:32:10

Amy Martin: to the Porcupine caribou herd

Speaker: 00:32:12

Amy Martin: are overblown.

Speaker: 00:32:13

Amy Martin: But I think the most

Speaker: 00:32:15

Amy Martin: interesting part of our

Speaker: 00:32:16

Amy Martin: conversation was when I asked

Speaker: 00:32:17

Amy Martin: her to make the positive case

Speaker: 00:32:19

Amy Martin: for drilling, not why

Speaker: 00:32:20

Amy Martin: environmentalists are wrong,

Speaker: 00:32:22

Amy Martin: but why oil companies are

Speaker: 00:32:24

Amy Martin: right because most

Speaker: 00:32:25

Amy Martin: of the refuge is federal land

Speaker: 00:32:27

Amy Martin: owned by all U.S.

Speaker: 00:32:28

Amy Martin: citizens.

Speaker: 00:32:29

Amy Martin: So it seems like it's incumbent

Speaker: 00:32:31

Amy Martin: on the industry to make the

Speaker: 00:32:32

Amy Martin: case for why they should be

Speaker: 00:32:34

Amy Martin: allowed to use public land

Speaker: 00:32:36

Amy Martin: for their private gain.

Speaker: 00:32:38

Amy Martin: And the public so far is

Speaker: 00:32:39

Amy Martin: not convinced, although a

Speaker: 00:32:41

Amy Martin: majority of Alaskans support

Speaker: 00:32:43

Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge,

Speaker: 00:32:44

Amy Martin: according to one recent poll,

Speaker: 00:32:46

Amy Martin: two thirds of registered voters

Speaker: 00:32:47

Amy Martin: in the country overall oppose

Speaker: 00:32:49

Amy Martin: it.

Speaker: 00:32:50

Amy Martin: So I wanted to hear Kara's best

Speaker: 00:32:52

Amy Martin: argument for why those people

Speaker: 00:32:53

Amy Martin: should change their minds.

Speaker: 00:32:55

Amy Martin: Why should Americans say yes

Speaker: 00:32:57

Amy Martin: to oil development in the

Speaker: 00:32:58

Amy Martin: refuge?

Speaker: 00:32:59

Kara Moriarty: There's going to continue to be

Speaker: 00:33:01

Kara Moriarty: a demand for

Speaker: 00:33:03

Kara Moriarty: oil and gas.

Speaker: 00:33:04

Kara Moriarty: It's still going to be the

Speaker: 00:33:05

Kara Moriarty: majority

Speaker: 00:33:07

Kara Moriarty: fuel source that supplies

Speaker: 00:33:09

Kara Moriarty: the globe's energy

Speaker: 00:33:11

Kara Moriarty: needs for the next

Speaker: 00:33:13

Kara Moriarty: 30 to 40 years.

Speaker: 00:33:14

Kara Moriarty: So why wouldn't we

Speaker: 00:33:15

Kara Moriarty: then, as a country,

Speaker: 00:33:18

Kara Moriarty: want to develop

Speaker: 00:33:19

Kara Moriarty: in our backyard where

Speaker: 00:33:21

Kara Moriarty: we know we have the strictest

Speaker: 00:33:23

Kara Moriarty: environmental standards?

Speaker: 00:33:25

Kara Moriarty: If you look at all the world

Speaker: 00:33:26

Kara Moriarty: estimates for the next 30

Speaker: 00:33:28

Kara Moriarty: years, the demand for

Speaker: 00:33:30

Kara Moriarty: oil does not go away.

Speaker: 00:33:32

Amy Martin: So one thing that I think

Speaker: 00:33:33

Amy Martin: I know some people would say

Speaker: 00:33:34

Amy Martin: hearing you is,

Speaker: 00:33:36

Amy Martin: you know, you said why wouldn't

Speaker: 00:33:37

Amy Martin: we develop it?

Speaker: 00:33:38

Amy Martin: I think some people would say

Speaker: 00:33:39

Amy Martin: because there's lots and lots

Speaker: 00:33:40

Amy Martin: of oil available in the world

Speaker: 00:33:42

Amy Martin: already in places that are

Speaker: 00:33:44

Amy Martin: more developed or,

Speaker: 00:33:46

Amy Martin: you know, already have impact.

Speaker: 00:33:47

Amy Martin: But this is a place that is

Speaker: 00:33:49

Amy Martin: pretty special in the world.

Speaker: 00:33:51

Amy Martin: Why not, even if we have

Speaker: 00:33:52

Amy Martin: to develop it someday,

Speaker: 00:33:54

Amy Martin: you know, 50 years down the

Speaker: 00:33:55

Amy Martin: road and we're having some kind

Speaker: 00:33:57

Amy Martin: of massive crisis, why

Speaker: 00:33:58

Amy Martin: not save it for then instead

Speaker: 00:34:00

Amy Martin: of, going there

Speaker: 00:34:02

Amy Martin: now when it is really

Speaker: 00:34:04

Amy Martin: it's a special habitat that has

Speaker: 00:34:05

Amy Martin: a lot of wildlife in it?

Speaker: 00:34:07

Kara Moriarty: Well, a couple of things to

Speaker: 00:34:08

Kara Moriarty: that.

Speaker: 00:34:09

Kara Moriarty: We have been saving it.

Speaker: 00:34:10

Kara Moriarty: We've been saving it for 40

Speaker: 00:34:12

Kara Moriarty: years already.

Speaker: 00:34:13

Amy Martin: Like Senator Johnston, Kara

Speaker: 00:34:15

Amy Martin: says the demand for oil is

Speaker: 00:34:17

Amy Martin: the justification for drilling

Speaker: 00:34:18

Amy Martin: it.

Speaker: 00:34:19

Amy Martin: And she says because oil

Speaker: 00:34:21

Amy Martin: production takes a lot of lead

Speaker: 00:34:22

Amy Martin: time, you have to stay ahead

Speaker: 00:34:24

Amy Martin: of that demand curve by

Speaker: 00:34:25

Amy Martin: constantly opening new fields.

Speaker: 00:34:28

Kara Moriarty: Oil basins, they peak and they decline.

Speaker: 00:34:30

Kara Moriarty: Is just the nature of the

Speaker: 00:34:31

Kara Moriarty: business.

Speaker: 00:34:32

Kara Moriarty: And so you have to constantly

Speaker: 00:34:33

Kara Moriarty: be replacing that

Speaker: 00:34:35

Kara Moriarty: decline and increasing

Speaker: 00:34:37

Kara Moriarty: it and the potential.

Speaker: 00:34:39

Kara Moriarty: So really, this

Speaker: 00:34:40

Kara Moriarty: oil is going to be available

Speaker: 00:34:42

Kara Moriarty: in 2032.

Speaker: 00:34:45

Kara Moriarty: It's not about getting the oil

Speaker: 00:34:46

Kara Moriarty: right now.

Speaker: 00:34:47

Kara Moriarty: It is about having

Speaker: 00:34:49

Kara Moriarty: the oil for the

Speaker: 00:34:51

Kara Moriarty: next generation to come.

Speaker: 00:34:53

Amy Martin: So I think another

Speaker: 00:34:54

Amy Martin: big argument you just actually

Speaker: 00:34:56

Amy Martin: touched on, it would just be

Speaker: 00:34:57

Amy Martin: climate change that a lot of

Speaker: 00:34:58

Amy Martin: people would say, why, why

Speaker: 00:35:00

Amy Martin: should we invest resources

Speaker: 00:35:02

Amy Martin: and basically set up

Speaker: 00:35:03

Amy Martin: the momentum toward, getting

Speaker: 00:35:06

Amy Martin: more fossil fuels out of the

Speaker: 00:35:07

Amy Martin: ground when they're warming the

Speaker: 00:35:08

Amy Martin: planet?

Speaker: 00:35:09

Amy Martin: And what's your response to

Speaker: 00:35:10

Amy Martin: that?

Speaker: 00:35:11

Kara Moriarty: Well, I think it's very

Speaker: 00:35:13

Kara Moriarty: unpractical

Speaker: 00:35:15

Kara Moriarty: to say that we're going to be

Speaker: 00:35:16

Kara Moriarty: without the use of fossil fuels

Speaker: 00:35:19

Kara Moriarty: in the next three decades

Speaker: 00:35:21

Kara Moriarty: because there's

Speaker: 00:35:23

Kara Moriarty: not enough alternative

Speaker: 00:35:25

Kara Moriarty: energy available.

Speaker: 00:35:26

Kara Moriarty: And it certainly would not be

Speaker: 00:35:28

Kara Moriarty: affordable for

Speaker: 00:35:30

Kara Moriarty: consumers.

Speaker: 00:35:32

Amy Martin: It's true that there's

Speaker: 00:35:33

Amy Martin: currently not enough

Speaker: 00:35:34

Amy Martin: alternative energy to meet

Speaker: 00:35:36

Amy Martin: demand.

Speaker: 00:35:37

Amy Martin: There are a host of reasons for

Speaker: 00:35:38

Amy Martin: that, transforming a

Speaker: 00:35:39

Amy Martin: fundamental sector of the

Speaker: 00:35:40

Amy Martin: economy isn't simple,

Speaker: 00:35:42

Amy Martin: but renewables are growing

Speaker: 00:35:44

Amy Martin: fast, and one of the major

Speaker: 00:35:45

Amy Martin: reasons why they haven't grown

Speaker: 00:35:47

Amy Martin: faster is the oil

Speaker: 00:35:48

Amy Martin: industry itself.

Speaker: 00:35:50

Amy Martin: There are indirect ways that

Speaker: 00:35:51

Amy Martin: the oil industry has

Speaker: 00:35:52

Amy Martin: constrained the growth of

Speaker: 00:35:53

Amy Martin: alternatives, things like tax

Speaker: 00:35:55

Amy Martin: subsidies and crowding out

Speaker: 00:35:57

Amy Martin: of competitors.

Speaker: 00:35:58

Amy Martin: But oil companies have also

Speaker: 00:35:59

Amy Martin: taken direct actions

Speaker: 00:36:01

Amy Martin: that have blocked the growth of

Speaker: 00:36:02

Amy Martin: renewables, including

Speaker: 00:36:04

Amy Martin: spending millions of dollars

Speaker: 00:36:06

Amy Martin: on campaigns to suppress

Speaker: 00:36:07

Amy Martin: climate science and confuse

Speaker: 00:36:09

Amy Martin: the public about the dangers of

Speaker: 00:36:11

Amy Martin: global warming.

Speaker: 00:36:13

Amy Martin: Lately, the big oil companies

Speaker: 00:36:14

Amy Martin: have been changing their tune

Speaker: 00:36:15

Amy Martin: on that, but what they say

Speaker: 00:36:17

Amy Martin: is sometimes very different

Speaker: 00:36:19

Amy Martin: from what they do.

Speaker: 00:36:20

Amy Martin: As just one example, we

Speaker: 00:36:22

Amy Martin: can look at BP, which is a

Speaker: 00:36:24

Amy Martin: member of Kara's trade

Speaker: 00:36:25

Amy Martin: organization.

Speaker: 00:36:26

Amy Martin: They publicly say they support

Speaker: 00:36:28

Amy Martin: putting a price on carbon

Speaker: 00:36:30

Amy Martin: to help reduce emissions, but

Speaker: 00:36:33

Amy Martin: in 2018,

Speaker: 00:36:34

Amy Martin: BP spent more than $10

Speaker: 00:36:36

Amy Martin: million to help defeat

Speaker: 00:36:38

Amy Martin: a carbon pricing ballot

Speaker: 00:36:39

Amy Martin: initiative in the state of

Speaker: 00:36:40

Amy Martin: Washington.

Speaker: 00:36:42

Amy Martin: Even so, Kara says,

Speaker: 00:36:43

Amy Martin: oil companies are helping to

Speaker: 00:36:45

Amy Martin: develop new, greener

Speaker: 00:36:46

Amy Martin: technologies.

Speaker: 00:36:48

Kara Moriarty: And the reality is,

Speaker: 00:36:49

Kara Moriarty: my very member companies

Speaker: 00:36:51

Kara Moriarty: globally are the

Speaker: 00:36:53

Kara Moriarty: companies investing

Speaker: 00:36:55

Kara Moriarty: in the technology

Speaker: 00:36:57

Kara Moriarty: to help with carbon capture,

Speaker: 00:36:59

Kara Moriarty: with switching from

Speaker: 00:37:01

Kara Moriarty: gas stations to electrical

Speaker: 00:37:03

Kara Moriarty: stations for cars.

Speaker: 00:37:04

Kara Moriarty: We're not bad

Speaker: 00:37:06

Kara Moriarty: and we're not bad for wanting

Speaker: 00:37:08

Kara Moriarty: to continue to meet

Speaker: 00:37:09

Kara Moriarty: the global demand

Speaker: 00:37:11

Kara Moriarty: for the use of oil and gas.

Speaker: 00:37:13

Kara Moriarty: And so, you know, as

Speaker: 00:37:15

Kara Moriarty: we continue to develop, we

Speaker: 00:37:16

Kara Moriarty: know that we're going to

Speaker: 00:37:17

Kara Moriarty: continue to improve.

Speaker: 00:37:22

Amy Martin: In 2018, the world's

Speaker: 00:37:24

Amy Martin: biggest oil and gas companies

Speaker: 00:37:26

Amy Martin: together spent around 1%

Speaker: 00:37:28

Amy Martin: of their budgets on clean

Speaker: 00:37:29

Amy Martin: energy.

Speaker: 00:37:30

Amy Martin: That's not nothing,

Speaker: 00:37:32

Amy Martin: but many citizens say the

Speaker: 00:37:33

Amy Martin: oil industry is still doing a

Speaker: 00:37:35

Amy Martin: lot more to hurt the climate

Speaker: 00:37:36

Amy Martin: than to help it.

Speaker: 00:37:38

Amy Martin: So they've been using a new

Speaker: 00:37:39

Amy Martin: tool pressuring banks

Speaker: 00:37:41

Amy Martin: not to invest in oil

Speaker: 00:37:42

Amy Martin: development.

Speaker: 00:37:43

Amy Martin: And that pressure has yielded

Speaker: 00:37:45

Amy Martin: some results.

Speaker: 00:37:46

Amy Martin: The European Investment Bank

Speaker: 00:37:48

Amy Martin: has pledged to end financing

Speaker: 00:37:49

Amy Martin: for all fossil fuel projects

Speaker: 00:37:51

Amy Martin: after 2021.

Speaker: 00:37:53

Amy Martin: And several other international

Speaker: 00:37:54

Amy Martin: banks have specifically called

Speaker: 00:37:56

Amy Martin: out the Arctic National

Speaker: 00:37:57

Amy Martin: Wildlife Refuge as a place

Speaker: 00:37:59

Amy Martin: where they will not invest in

Speaker: 00:38:00

Amy Martin: oil and gas.

Speaker: 00:38:02

Amy Martin: As we've been putting this

Speaker: 00:38:03

Amy Martin: episode together, the first

Speaker: 00:38:04

Amy Martin: U.S. bank joined the club:

Speaker: 00:38:06

Amy Martin: Goldman Sachs announced they

Speaker: 00:38:08

Amy Martin: will not finance any new

Speaker: 00:38:09

Amy Martin: drilling or oil exploration

Speaker: 00:38:11

Amy Martin: in the Arctic.

Speaker: 00:38:14

Amy Martin: It's unclear if or how much

Speaker: 00:38:16

Amy Martin: all of this might affect the

Speaker: 00:38:18

Amy Martin: outcome of a lease sale.

Speaker: 00:38:19

Amy Martin: But the public opposition,

Speaker: 00:38:21

Amy Martin: combined with the relatively

Speaker: 00:38:22

Amy Martin: low price of oil right now and

Speaker: 00:38:24

Amy Martin: the high cost of extraction in

Speaker: 00:38:25

Amy Martin: this remote area make

Speaker: 00:38:27

Amy Martin: drilling in the refuge a

Speaker: 00:38:28

Amy Martin: riskier proposition than most.

Speaker: 00:38:31

Amy Martin: But there could be

Speaker: 00:38:33

Amy Martin: a less obvious price some

Speaker: 00:38:35

Amy Martin: companies hope to claim.

Speaker: 00:38:36

Kara Moriarty: Honestly, there's probably

Speaker: 00:38:38

Kara Moriarty: a lot more gas in the coastal

Speaker: 00:38:40

Kara Moriarty: plain than there is oil.

Speaker: 00:38:42

Kara Moriarty: I mean, we have hundreds of

Speaker: 00:38:43

Kara Moriarty: trillions of cubic feet of

Speaker: 00:38:44

Kara Moriarty: natural gas on the North Slope.

Speaker: 00:38:47

Amy Martin: If you look globally, natural

Speaker: 00:38:48

Amy Martin: gas is the real story

Speaker: 00:38:50

Amy Martin: of energy development in the

Speaker: 00:38:51

Amy Martin: Arctic.

Speaker: 00:38:52

Amy Martin: The gas industry is booming in

Speaker: 00:38:54

Amy Martin: the Russian north, and like

Speaker: 00:38:55

Amy Martin: Kara said, the North Slope of

Speaker: 00:38:57

Amy Martin: Alaska has enormous natural

Speaker: 00:38:59

Amy Martin: gas reserves, too.

Speaker: 00:39:01

Amy Martin: The problem in Alaska, though,

Speaker: 00:39:02

Amy Martin: is transportation.

Speaker: 00:39:04

Amy Martin: Attempts to build a gas

Speaker: 00:39:06

Amy Martin: pipeline similar to the oil

Speaker: 00:39:07

Amy Martin: pipeline that cuts through the

Speaker: 00:39:09

Amy Martin: state have gone nowhere,

Speaker: 00:39:10

Amy Martin: so far.

Speaker: 00:39:12

Amy Martin: But oil and gas executives

Speaker: 00:39:13

Amy Martin: must be casting their eyes

Speaker: 00:39:15

Amy Martin: longingly on all that untapped

Speaker: 00:39:17

Amy Martin: gas in the refuge.

Speaker: 00:39:19

Amy Martin: And even though both the oil

Speaker: 00:39:20

Amy Martin: and gas markets are considered

Speaker: 00:39:22

Amy Martin: to be in a state of oversupply

Speaker: 00:39:24

Amy Martin: right now, Kara says

Speaker: 00:39:26

Amy Martin: we have to keep opening up

Speaker: 00:39:27

Amy Martin: new areas for drilling.

Speaker: 00:39:29

Kara Moriarty: What we have today will

Speaker: 00:39:31

Kara Moriarty: not be enough to supply

Speaker: 00:39:34

Kara Moriarty: the next 30 to 40 years.

Speaker: 00:39:36

Kara Moriarty: So we have to

Speaker: 00:39:38

Kara Moriarty: add resources

Speaker: 00:39:39

Kara Moriarty: as we continue this

Speaker: 00:39:41

Kara Moriarty: transition to

Speaker: 00:39:43

Kara Moriarty: other sources of energy.

Speaker: 00:39:45

Amy Martin: Even with oil at $56

Speaker: 00:39:47

Amy Martin: a barrel?

Speaker: 00:39:48

Kara Moriarty: Who knows what oil price is

Speaker: 00:39:49

Kara Moriarty: going to be?

Speaker: 00:39:50

Kara Moriarty: I mean, the good...

Speaker: 00:39:52

Amy Martin: And the discoveries in Texas-

Speaker: 00:39:53

Kara Moriarty: Right. I mean, but but the

Speaker: 00:39:55

Kara Moriarty: discoveries in Texas are

Speaker: 00:39:56

Kara Moriarty: still not going to help meet

Speaker: 00:39:58

Kara Moriarty: the demand 30 to

Speaker: 00:40:00

Kara Moriarty: 40 years from now.

Speaker: 00:40:01

Kara Moriarty: So in the end, you kind

Speaker: 00:40:03

Kara Moriarty: of need it all.

Speaker: 00:40:04

Kara Moriarty: You have to be able

Speaker: 00:40:05

Kara Moriarty: to to add to

Speaker: 00:40:08

Kara Moriarty: the reserves, as I

Speaker: 00:40:10

Kara Moriarty: tried to explain.

Speaker: 00:40:12

Amy Martin: I think, though, that the

Speaker: 00:40:13

Amy Martin: feeling that, you know, in the

Speaker: 00:40:14

Amy Martin: end we are going to need it

Speaker: 00:40:16

Amy Martin: all. I mean, that's kind of the

Speaker: 00:40:17

Amy Martin: crux of it, is that there are a

Speaker: 00:40:18

Amy Martin: lot of people saying like, no,

Speaker: 00:40:19

Amy Martin: actually, the truth of it is we

Speaker: 00:40:21

Amy Martin: have to stop before we get it

Speaker: 00:40:22

Amy Martin: all. Or that's not practical.

Speaker: 00:40:22

Kara Moriarty: But, but, but, but, but,

Speaker: 00:40:24

Kara Moriarty: but, but but my answer

Speaker: 00:40:26

Kara Moriarty: my question back to them is,

Speaker: 00:40:27

Kara Moriarty: what are you going to do?

Speaker: 00:40:28

Kara Moriarty: I mean, if you stop and

Speaker: 00:40:30

Kara Moriarty: you know that the alternative

Speaker: 00:40:31

Kara Moriarty: energy isn't going to be there,

Speaker: 00:40:33

Kara Moriarty: what do you do in the meantime?

Speaker: 00:40:35

Kara Moriarty: Do you go back to,

Speaker: 00:40:37

Kara Moriarty: you know, candlesticks?

Speaker: 00:40:38

Kara Moriarty: I mean, I don't think so.

Speaker: 00:40:44

Amy Martin: Kara is doing the same thing

Speaker: 00:40:45

Amy Martin: Senators Johnston and Murkowski

Speaker: 00:40:47

Amy Martin: did when I asked them about

Speaker: 00:40:48

Amy Martin: this tension between drilling

Speaker: 00:40:50

Amy Martin: in the refuge and mitigating

Speaker: 00:40:51

Amy Martin: climate change.

Speaker: 00:40:53

Amy Martin: They all responded with some

Speaker: 00:40:54

Amy Martin: version of, "well, we can't

Speaker: 00:40:56

Amy Martin: just shut down all drilling

Speaker: 00:40:57

Amy Martin: immediately." But

Speaker: 00:40:59

Amy Martin: that dodges the question.

Speaker: 00:41:01

Amy Martin: Almost everyone recognizes

Speaker: 00:41:03

Amy Martin: a transition is necessary

Speaker: 00:41:04

Amy Martin: here, that we can't just stop

Speaker: 00:41:06

Amy Martin: all use of fossil fuels

Speaker: 00:41:07

Amy Martin: tomorrow and go back to

Speaker: 00:41:09

Amy Martin: candlesticks, as Kara says.

Speaker: 00:41:11

Amy Martin: Where the real debate lies

Speaker: 00:41:13

Amy Martin: is over when and how

Speaker: 00:41:15

Amy Martin: and how fast we're going

Speaker: 00:41:16

Amy Martin: to make the transition.

Speaker: 00:41:18

Amy Martin: That's where the question

Speaker: 00:41:19

Amy Martin: emerges about opening up new

Speaker: 00:41:21

Amy Martin: fields, especially in pristine

Speaker: 00:41:23

Amy Martin: wilderness areas, and

Speaker: 00:41:24

Amy Martin: especially in a context in

Speaker: 00:41:26

Amy Martin: which there's ample evidence

Speaker: 00:41:27

Amy Martin: that the oil industry is

Speaker: 00:41:29

Amy Martin: slowing the transition down.

Speaker: 00:41:31

Amy Martin: But Kara says oil companies

Speaker: 00:41:33

Amy Martin: are being villainized for

Speaker: 00:41:35

Amy Martin: providing reliable, affordable

Speaker: 00:41:37

Amy Martin: power.

Speaker: 00:41:40

Kara Moriarty: I mean, I think that's the

Speaker: 00:41:41

Kara Moriarty: other thing that gets

Speaker: 00:41:41

Kara Moriarty: overlooked.

Speaker: 00:41:42

Kara Moriarty: The oil and gas industry

Speaker: 00:41:44

Kara Moriarty: has unlocked potential

Speaker: 00:41:47

Kara Moriarty: and quality of life

Speaker: 00:41:49

Kara Moriarty: for people across the globe.

Speaker: 00:41:52

Kara Moriarty: Once people have a reliable

Speaker: 00:41:53

Kara Moriarty: source of power, once

Speaker: 00:41:55

Kara Moriarty: they have a reliable source of

Speaker: 00:41:57

Kara Moriarty: heat, especially one that they

Speaker: 00:41:58

Kara Moriarty: can afford,

Speaker: 00:42:00

Kara Moriarty: it opens up a whole new

Speaker: 00:42:03

Kara Moriarty: opportunities for them.

Speaker: 00:42:05

Kara Moriarty: And that and the data is there

Speaker: 00:42:06

Kara Moriarty: to back that up.

Speaker: 00:42:08

Amy Martin: I don't think anybody's

Speaker: 00:42:09

Amy Martin: questioning that

Speaker: 00:42:10

Amy Martin: when you have access

Speaker: 00:42:13

Amy Martin: to affordable

Speaker: 00:42:14

Amy Martin: power, it benefits

Speaker: 00:42:16

Amy Martin: individual humans and benefits

Speaker: 00:42:19

Amy Martin: communities. It can even

Speaker: 00:42:20

Amy Martin: benefit an entire state or

Speaker: 00:42:21

Amy Martin: country.

Speaker: 00:42:22

Amy Martin: But at the same time, that

Speaker: 00:42:24

Amy Martin: has a collective impact

Speaker: 00:42:26

Amy Martin: that is detrimental to all of

Speaker: 00:42:27

Amy Martin: us in the long run.

Speaker: 00:42:29

Amy Martin: And so I don't think anybody

Speaker: 00:42:30

Amy Martin: has to be a villain to

Speaker: 00:42:31

Amy Martin: have it be like, that's a,

Speaker: 00:42:33

Amy Martin: that's a problem.

Speaker: 00:42:34

Amy Martin: You know, how do we solve that?

Speaker: 00:42:35

Amy Martin: That like, yeah, this community

Speaker: 00:42:37

Amy Martin: can do well or our country can

Speaker: 00:42:39

Amy Martin: do well.

Speaker: 00:42:40

Amy Martin: But all of us, as

Speaker: 00:42:41

Amy Martin: humans and living things on

Speaker: 00:42:43

Amy Martin: this planet are eventually

Speaker: 00:42:44

Amy Martin: going to we're getting tanked

Speaker: 00:42:45

Amy Martin: by the, the damage to

Speaker: 00:42:47

Amy Martin: the climate. And

Speaker: 00:42:49

Amy Martin: I'm just curious, like, how do

Speaker: 00:42:50

Amy Martin: you make sense of that?

Speaker: 00:42:53

Kara Moriarty: Well, I think that.

Speaker: 00:42:56

Kara Moriarty: Yes, we're all concerned about

Speaker: 00:42:59

Kara Moriarty: making sure that our planet

Speaker: 00:43:01

Kara Moriarty: is here for

Speaker: 00:43:03

Kara Moriarty: more than generations to

Speaker: 00:43:04

Kara Moriarty: come.

Speaker: 00:43:06

Kara Moriarty: But how do

Speaker: 00:43:07

Kara Moriarty: we utilize our

Speaker: 00:43:09

Kara Moriarty: knowhow and the

Speaker: 00:43:11

Kara Moriarty: technologies that we have

Speaker: 00:43:13

Kara Moriarty: and that we continue to improve

Speaker: 00:43:15

Kara Moriarty: upon?

Speaker: 00:43:16

Kara Moriarty: Because if we're not,

Speaker: 00:43:17

Kara Moriarty: we're not operating the same

Speaker: 00:43:19

Kara Moriarty: way. I mean, we're learning

Speaker: 00:43:21

Kara Moriarty: how to be better.

Speaker: 00:43:23

Kara Moriarty: But the only way you be better

Speaker: 00:43:25

Kara Moriarty: is by continuing to do it.

Speaker: 00:43:27

Kara Moriarty: You don't just stop because

Speaker: 00:43:29

Kara Moriarty: there is a demand for that

Speaker: 00:43:30

Kara Moriarty: product.

Speaker: 00:43:35

Amy Martin: At the beginning of this

Speaker: 00:43:36

Amy Martin: episode, we were talking about

Speaker: 00:43:38

Amy Martin: path dependance,

Speaker: 00:43:39

Amy Martin: how the choices we've made in

Speaker: 00:43:41

Amy Martin: the past shape what we think

Speaker: 00:43:43

Amy Martin: is possible today.

Speaker: 00:43:45

Amy Martin: But our human pathways

Speaker: 00:43:46

Amy Martin: all happen here on

Speaker: 00:43:48

Amy Martin: planet Earth.

Speaker: 00:43:49

Amy Martin: They're part of natural systems

Speaker: 00:43:51

Amy Martin: that have their own momentum,

Speaker: 00:43:52

Amy Martin: their own trajectories that

Speaker: 00:43:54

Amy Martin: operate according to their own

Speaker: 00:43:56

Amy Martin: rules.

Speaker: 00:43:57

Amy Martin: And one of those rules says

Speaker: 00:43:58

Amy Martin: if you burn a whole lot of

Speaker: 00:44:00

Amy Martin: carbon based material very

Speaker: 00:44:01

Amy Martin: quickly, you knock the

Speaker: 00:44:03

Amy Martin: systems regulating the climate

Speaker: 00:44:05

Amy Martin: out of whack.

Speaker: 00:44:06

Amy Martin: And it can take a very long

Speaker: 00:44:08

Amy Martin: time for those systems to find

Speaker: 00:44:09

Amy Martin: a new equilibrium.

Speaker: 00:44:11

Amy Martin: This is the path we're

Speaker: 00:44:13

Amy Martin: co-creating with our planet.

Speaker: 00:44:15

Amy Martin: And the longer we stay on it,

Speaker: 00:44:17

Amy Martin: the harder it is to change

Speaker: 00:44:19

Amy Martin: course.

Speaker: 00:44:20

Victoria Herrmann: It's hard to bring

Speaker: 00:44:22

Victoria Herrmann: everyone into the same

Speaker: 00:44:23

Victoria Herrmann: conversation.

Speaker: 00:44:26

Amy Martin: Again, Victoria Herrmann of the

Speaker: 00:44:27

Amy Martin: Arctic Institute.

Speaker: 00:44:28

Victoria Herrmann: Well, here we're talking

Speaker: 00:44:30

Victoria Herrmann: about ANWR and about drilling

Speaker: 00:44:31

Victoria Herrmann: and climate change, it's

Speaker: 00:44:33

Victoria Herrmann: important to know that most

Speaker: 00:44:35

Victoria Herrmann: conversations that happen about

Speaker: 00:44:37

Victoria Herrmann: the Arctic in Washington,

Speaker: 00:44:38

Victoria Herrmann: D.C., are focused on national

Speaker: 00:44:40

Victoria Herrmann: security and are not about

Speaker: 00:44:42

Victoria Herrmann: energy or climate

Speaker: 00:44:44

Victoria Herrmann: or human welfare.

Speaker: 00:44:45

Victoria Herrmann: They are about icebreakers

Speaker: 00:44:47

Victoria Herrmann: and military spending

Speaker: 00:44:48

Victoria Herrmann: and our relationship to

Speaker: 00:44:50

Victoria Herrmann: Russia.

Speaker: 00:44:51

Victoria Herrmann: I try to continuously

Speaker: 00:44:53

Victoria Herrmann: bring up climate change and

Speaker: 00:44:54

Victoria Herrmann: energy development, but that

Speaker: 00:44:56

Victoria Herrmann: is not the norm for

Speaker: 00:44:58

Victoria Herrmann: a D.C.

Speaker: 00:44:59

Victoria Herrmann: conversation about the Arctic.

Speaker: 00:45:01

Amy Martin: And in addition to security, a

Speaker: 00:45:03

Amy Martin: lot of conversation about the

Speaker: 00:45:04

Amy Martin: Arctic these days revolves

Speaker: 00:45:06

Amy Martin: around commerce.

Speaker: 00:45:07

Amy Martin: Addressing the Arctic Council

Speaker: 00:45:09

Amy Martin: last spring, Secretary

Speaker: 00:45:11

Amy Martin: of State Mike Pompeo talked

Speaker: 00:45:12

Amy Martin: glowingly about the oil,

Speaker: 00:45:14

Amy Martin: gas and minerals waiting

Speaker: 00:45:15

Amy Martin: to be drilled in mind in the

Speaker: 00:45:17

Amy Martin: far north.

Speaker: 00:45:18

Amy Martin: A few years earlier, the former

Speaker: 00:45:20

Amy Martin: president of Iceland did the

Speaker: 00:45:21

Amy Martin: same and referred to the region

Speaker: 00:45:23

Amy Martin: as a new Africa.

Speaker: 00:45:26

Amy Martin: This is another one of the

Speaker: 00:45:27

Amy Martin: well-worn paths that shape

Speaker: 00:45:29

Amy Martin: our thinking about the Arctic

Speaker: 00:45:30

Amy Martin: and the refuge.

Speaker: 00:45:32

Amy Martin: For centuries, white people

Speaker: 00:45:33

Amy Martin: have been imagining the far

Speaker: 00:45:35

Amy Martin: north as an empty space

Speaker: 00:45:36

Amy Martin: in which they have brave

Speaker: 00:45:37

Amy Martin: adventures while extracting

Speaker: 00:45:39

Amy Martin: valuable resources.

Speaker: 00:45:42

ARCO Video: The men of Prudhoe Bay

Speaker: 00:45:44

ARCO Video: are heirs to a tradition of

Speaker: 00:45:45

ARCO Video: Arctic exploration begun

Speaker: 00:45:47

ARCO Video: in the last century by Perry

Speaker: 00:45:48

ARCO Video: and Frobisher.

Speaker: 00:45:50

ARCO Video: Searching for oil may seem

Speaker: 00:45:52

ARCO Video: less romantic than racing to

Speaker: 00:45:53

ARCO Video: the pole by dog sled.

Speaker: 00:45:56

ARCO Video: But the potential for mankind

Speaker: 00:45:58

ARCO Video: is no less impressive.

Speaker: 00:46:01

Amy Martin: This is some tape from that old

Speaker: 00:46:03

Amy Martin: film I played you back in our

Speaker: 00:46:04

Amy Martin: first episode.

Speaker: 00:46:05

Amy Martin: It was made in 1975

Speaker: 00:46:07

Amy Martin: by The Atlantic Richfield

Speaker: 00:46:08

Amy Martin: Company as they were preparing

Speaker: 00:46:10

Amy Martin: to start drilling at the

Speaker: 00:46:11

Amy Martin: Prudhoe Bay oil field.

Speaker: 00:46:13

Amy Martin: And I just have to revisit it

Speaker: 00:46:14

Amy Martin: for a minute because I find it

Speaker: 00:46:15

Amy Martin: to be such a revealing artifact

Speaker: 00:46:17

Amy Martin: from that time and place.

Speaker: 00:46:20

Amy Martin: Just check this out.

Speaker: 00:46:23

ARCO Video: Once this vast land

Speaker: 00:46:24

ARCO Video: belonged to the wild animals,

Speaker: 00:46:27

ARCO Video: today, there's still room for

Speaker: 00:46:28

ARCO Video: the caribou to graze peacefully

Speaker: 00:46:30

ARCO Video: in a largely unspoiled

Speaker: 00:46:32

ARCO Video: environment.

Speaker: 00:46:35

ARCO Video: Now, the Arctic wilderness

Speaker: 00:46:36

ARCO Video: must be shared with a strange

Speaker: 00:46:38

ARCO Video: new breed that migrates

Speaker: 00:46:40

ARCO Video: in trucks and airplanes.

Speaker: 00:46:42

ARCO Video: Protecting the animals' freedom

Speaker: 00:46:44

ARCO Video: through strict company

Speaker: 00:46:45

ARCO Video: regulation, man

Speaker: 00:46:47

ARCO Video: claims part of their land

Speaker: 00:46:49

ARCO Video: to help ensure his own

Speaker: 00:46:50

ARCO Video: survival.

Speaker: 00:46:52

Amy Martin: This short clip contains so

Speaker: 00:46:54

Amy Martin: much information about the

Speaker: 00:46:55

Amy Martin: mindset at work here.

Speaker: 00:46:57

Amy Martin: We're told this land once

Speaker: 00:46:58

Amy Martin: belonged to the animals, not

Speaker: 00:47:00

Amy Martin: to the indigenous people of

Speaker: 00:47:01

Amy Martin: this region, and now it

Speaker: 00:47:03

Amy Martin: must be shared with this

Speaker: 00:47:04

Amy Martin: strange new breed,

Speaker: 00:47:06

Amy Martin: these men arriving to claim

Speaker: 00:47:08

Amy Martin: part of the North for their own

Speaker: 00:47:09

Amy Martin: survival.

Speaker: 00:47:10

Amy Martin: Of course, Alaska native people

Speaker: 00:47:12

Amy Martin: have been using the land,

Speaker: 00:47:14

Amy Martin: water, plants and animals of

Speaker: 00:47:15

Amy Martin: this region to ensure their

Speaker: 00:47:17

Amy Martin: own survival for millennia.

Speaker: 00:47:19

Amy Martin: But with a few lines and a

Speaker: 00:47:20

Amy Martin: sentimental soundtrack, all

Speaker: 00:47:22

Amy Martin: of that is rendered invisible.

Speaker: 00:47:24

Amy Martin: ARCO gives a passing mention of

Speaker: 00:47:26

Amy Martin: providing new jobs for eskimos

Speaker: 00:47:28

Amy Martin: and then quickly returns to the

Speaker: 00:47:30

Amy Martin: main objective, documenting

Speaker: 00:47:32

Amy Martin: their own heroic battle

Speaker: 00:47:33

Amy Martin: with the natural world.

Speaker: 00:47:36

ARCO Video: As the storm rages,

Speaker: 00:47:39

ARCO Video: nature reasserts her power

Speaker: 00:47:41

ARCO Video: over man.

Speaker: 00:47:43

ARCO Video: But on the land, man

Speaker: 00:47:45

ARCO Video: retains control.

Speaker: 00:47:47

Amy Martin: Nature is the enemy.

Speaker: 00:47:49

Amy Martin: The other, often referred

Speaker: 00:47:51

Amy Martin: to with a feminine pronoun.

Speaker: 00:47:53

ARCO Video: Pitting himself against nature,

Speaker: 00:47:55

ARCO Video: man has beaten the odds.

Speaker: 00:47:57

Amy Martin: We might not speak quite as

Speaker: 00:47:58

Amy Martin: plainly about it these days,

Speaker: 00:48:00

Amy Martin: but this conquering mindset

Speaker: 00:48:01

Amy Martin: is still very much at work

Speaker: 00:48:03

Amy Martin: in the Arctic and often

Speaker: 00:48:05

Amy Martin: conquering places or

Speaker: 00:48:07

Amy Martin: people begins with devaluing

Speaker: 00:48:09

Amy Martin: them.

Speaker: 00:48:10

Amy Martin: This leads me in to something

Speaker: 00:48:12

Amy Martin: that I found over and over

Speaker: 00:48:13

Amy Martin: as I dug into the story of the

Speaker: 00:48:15

Amy Martin: refuge.

Speaker: 00:48:16

Amy Martin: Throughout the history of this

Speaker: 00:48:17

Amy Martin: controversy, people have tried

Speaker: 00:48:19

Amy Martin: to portray this area as

Speaker: 00:48:20

Amy Martin: unworthy of protection

Speaker: 00:48:22

Amy Martin: because it's not pretty enough.

Speaker: 00:48:24

Senator Johnston: ANWR is

Speaker: 00:48:26

Senator Johnston: the most misrepresented place

Speaker: 00:48:28

Senator Johnston: I think I've ever seen.

Speaker: 00:48:30

Amy Martin: Again, this is Senator J.

Speaker: 00:48:31

Amy Martin: Bennett Johnston.

Speaker: 00:48:33

Senator Johnston: People to speak of it as

Speaker: 00:48:35

Senator Johnston: if it's a beautiful area.

Speaker: 00:48:36

Senator Johnston: They've conjured up this view

Speaker: 00:48:38

Senator Johnston: of this beautiful Serengeti,

Speaker: 00:48:40

Senator Johnston: which it is really not.

Speaker: 00:48:42

Senator Johnston: It is really just

Speaker: 00:48:44

Senator Johnston: the coastal plain and just a

Speaker: 00:48:46

Senator Johnston: tundra.

Speaker: 00:48:48

Amy Martin: Senator Johnston and many

Speaker: 00:48:50

Amy Martin: other pro-oil people I spoke

Speaker: 00:48:51

Amy Martin: with claimed that conservation

Speaker: 00:48:53

Amy Martin: groups put mountains in

Speaker: 00:48:55

Amy Martin: pictures of the drilling area

Speaker: 00:48:56

Amy Martin: to make it look more appealing.

Speaker: 00:48:58

Amy Martin: Kara Moriarty said this too.

Speaker: 00:49:00

Kara Moriarty: You don't even see mountains

Speaker: 00:49:02

Kara Moriarty: from the 1002 area.

Speaker: 00:49:04

Amy Martin: That's actually not true.

Speaker: 00:49:06

Amy Martin: The mountains are indeed

Speaker: 00:49:07

Amy Martin: visible from the coastal plain,

Speaker: 00:49:09

Amy Martin: and Senator Johnston is also

Speaker: 00:49:10

Amy Martin: wrong when he says the 1002

Speaker: 00:49:12

Amy Martin: area doesn't support many

Speaker: 00:49:13

Amy Martin: animals.

Speaker: 00:49:14

Amy Martin: The northern tundra plays an

Speaker: 00:49:15

Amy Martin: important role in the life

Speaker: 00:49:17

Amy Martin: cycle of dozens of species,

Speaker: 00:49:19

Amy Martin: but more than the factual

Speaker: 00:49:20

Amy Martin: mistakes, the real question

Speaker: 00:49:22

Amy Martin: here is when did the tundra

Speaker: 00:49:24

Amy Martin: become inherently less valuable

Speaker: 00:49:25

Amy Martin: than a mountain range?

Speaker: 00:49:27

Amy Martin: Like, who decided that?

Speaker: 00:49:29

Amy Martin: Yes, Tundras tend to be flat

Speaker: 00:49:31

Amy Martin: and open.

Speaker: 00:49:32

Amy Martin: So do prairies.

Speaker: 00:49:34

Amy Martin: Does that mean they're worthless?

Speaker: 00:49:36

Amy Martin: It's very ironic that some

Speaker: 00:49:38

Amy Martin: of the politicians claiming to

Speaker: 00:49:39

Amy Martin: support Inupiaq people

Speaker: 00:49:41

Amy Martin: have no problem describing

Speaker: 00:49:42

Amy Martin: their homelands in disparaging

Speaker: 00:49:44

Amy Martin: terms.

Speaker: 00:49:45

Amy Martin: For instance, former Alaska

Speaker: 00:49:47

Amy Martin: Senator Ted Stevens said this

Speaker: 00:49:49

Amy Martin: during a 2005 congressional

Speaker: 00:49:50

Amy Martin: debate over drilling in the

Speaker: 00:49:51

Amy Martin: refuge.

Speaker: 00:49:52

Amy Martin: Quote, "I defy

Speaker: 00:49:54

Amy Martin: anyone to say that that is a

Speaker: 00:49:55

Amy Martin: beautiful place that has to be

Speaker: 00:49:57

Amy Martin: preserved for the future.

Speaker: 00:49:59

Amy Martin: It is a barren wasteland.

Speaker: 00:50:00

Amy Martin: Frozen wasteland."

Speaker: 00:50:02

Amy Martin: End quote.

Speaker: 00:50:04

Amy Martin: This tactic of devaluing a

Speaker: 00:50:06

Amy Martin: place in an attempt to persuade

Speaker: 00:50:07

Amy Martin: others not to protect it

Speaker: 00:50:09

Amy Martin: has a long, disturbing history.

Speaker: 00:50:12

Amy Martin: This is how nuclear waste ends

Speaker: 00:50:13

Amy Martin: up on Native American

Speaker: 00:50:14

Amy Martin: reservations, and the tops of

Speaker: 00:50:16

Amy Martin: mountains get chopped off in

Speaker: 00:50:17

Amy Martin: Appalachia.

Speaker: 00:50:19

Amy Martin: We're told these places are

Speaker: 00:50:20

Amy Martin: ugly or unimportant,

Speaker: 00:50:22

Amy Martin: so it doesn't matter if we

Speaker: 00:50:23

Amy Martin: trash them.

Speaker: 00:50:24

Amy Martin: And one thing these supposed

Speaker: 00:50:26

Amy Martin: sacrifice zones almost

Speaker: 00:50:28

Amy Martin: always have in common is

Speaker: 00:50:29

Amy Martin: that the people who live in and

Speaker: 00:50:31

Amy Martin: around them don't have very

Speaker: 00:50:33

Amy Martin: much money or power.

Speaker: 00:50:46

Amy Martin: How, how

Speaker: 00:50:47

Amy Martin: worried are you about oil

Speaker: 00:50:48

Amy Martin: development?

Speaker: 00:50:51

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I don't want to live in an

Speaker: 00:50:52

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: oilfield.

Speaker: 00:50:55

Amy Martin: This is

Speaker: 00:50:57

Amy Martin: Vebjorn Aishana Reitan. We met

Speaker: 00:50:57

Amy Martin: him in our first episode, he's

Speaker: 00:50:59

Amy Martin: from Kaktovik, Alaska.

Speaker: 00:51:01

Amy Martin: I'm sitting next to a Vebjorn

Speaker: 00:51:02

Amy Martin: in his boat, heading out from

Speaker: 00:51:03

Amy Martin: the village to visit the

Speaker: 00:51:04

Amy Martin: coastal plain.

Speaker: 00:51:06

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's not

Speaker: 00:51:08

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: that important to me

Speaker: 00:51:11

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: to

Speaker: 00:51:13

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: have money, I guess.

Speaker: 00:51:16

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: And I don't think we should,

Speaker: 00:51:19

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: we should sacrifice

Speaker: 00:51:20

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: our land that makes

Speaker: 00:51:22

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: us who we are.

Speaker: 00:51:24

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Just so

Speaker: 00:51:26

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: we can have a stake

Speaker: 00:51:28

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: in an industry that's

Speaker: 00:51:30

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: ultimately going to lose, I

Speaker: 00:51:31

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: think.

Speaker: 00:51:34

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I don't think we should

Speaker: 00:51:35

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: sacrifice what we are

Speaker: 00:51:36

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: just so they can

Speaker: 00:51:38

Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: drill oil.

Speaker: 00:51:42

Amy Martin: Vebjorn lands the boat and

Speaker: 00:51:44

Amy Martin: we walk around a little bit on

Speaker: 00:51:45

Amy Martin: the tundra.

Speaker: 00:51:46

Amy Martin: It's wet and green with

Speaker: 00:51:48

Amy Martin: little creeks cutting down to

Speaker: 00:51:49

Amy Martin: the beach.

Speaker: 00:51:50

Amy Martin: A hawk hovers in the distance,

Speaker: 00:51:52

Amy Martin: flapping its wings and staring

Speaker: 00:51:54

Amy Martin: into the grass with a hunter's

Speaker: 00:51:55

Amy Martin: intense focus.

Speaker: 00:51:57

Amy Martin: Ted Stevens said this land

Speaker: 00:51:59

Amy Martin: had no beauty at all,

Speaker: 00:52:01

Amy Martin: but to Vebjorn and many other

Speaker: 00:52:03

Amy Martin: people who live here, people

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Amy Martin: on both sides of the drilling

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Amy Martin: debate, this place is

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Amy Martin: precious.

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Amy Martin: And Vebjorn says that if we

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Amy Martin: can't see that and feel

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Amy Martin: it, maybe that says

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Amy Martin: more about us than it does

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Amy Martin: about this place.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I think people should get out

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: more.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's good for people to be out

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: on the land.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: I think it's important to

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: live outside your house,

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: but just be locked up inside.

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Amy Martin: Yeah.

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Amy Martin: Being with Vebjorn on the

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Amy Martin: coastal plain of the refuge

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Amy Martin: made me think of a poem by

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Amy Martin: Wendell Berry.

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Amy Martin: It's called How to Be a Poet.

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Amy Martin: And there are these three lines

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Amy Martin: in the middle.

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Amy Martin: They go like this.

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Amy Martin: "There are no un sacred places.

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Amy Martin: There are only sacred places

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Amy Martin: and desecrated places."

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Yeah.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Everybody.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Everybody should get out more.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Enjoy the nature.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: Then this becomes more

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: close.,Close to you.

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Amy Martin: Yeah.

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Amy Martin: Yeah.

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Amy Martin: The conflict over drilling in

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Amy Martin: the refuge is so binary.

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Amy Martin: For or against, pro

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Amy Martin: oil or anti oil.

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Amy Martin: If one side wins, the other

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Amy Martin: loses.

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Amy Martin: It's been a long, loud,

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Amy Martin: angry fight.

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Amy Martin: And it's not over yet.

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Amy Martin: And it's such a contrast to

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Amy Martin: how it feels to actually be

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Amy Martin: on the coastal plain.

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Amy Martin: Here at the epicenter of the

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Amy Martin: battle, it's quiet,

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Amy Martin: open, calm,

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Amy Martin: and the enormity of the space

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Amy Martin: around me gives me something

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Amy Martin: that's increasingly hard to

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Amy Martin: find in our world,

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Amy Martin: a tangible sensation of

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Amy Martin: how small my own life

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Amy Martin: with all of its arguments,

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Amy Martin: really is.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's beautiful

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: in its own way.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's. It's not just,

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: it's not like a beautiful

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: mountain.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: You could say it's strikingly

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: empty right now.

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: It's, it's beautiful in

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Vebjorn Aishana Reitan: a different way.

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Amy Martin: This series was funded by

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Amy Martin: the Pulitzer Center, Montana

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Amy Martin: Public Radio, the Park

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Amy Martin: Foundation, the High Stakes

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Amy Martin: Foundation, the William H.

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Amy Martin: and Mary Wattis Harris

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Amy Martin: Foundation, and by

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Amy Martin: you, our listeners.

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Amy Martin: Thank you to all of you

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Amy Martin: for helping to make this show

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Amy Martin: happen.

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Amy Martin: We're going to be keeping an

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Amy Martin: eye on how things unfold with

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Amy Martin: the refuge.

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Amy Martin: If you'd like to stay informed

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Amy Martin: about that, follow us on social

Speaker: 00:55:02

Amy Martin: media and join our mailing

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Amy Martin: list at Thresholdpodcast.org.

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Amy Martin: You can also find lots of

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Amy Martin: pictures from our reporting

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Amy Martin: trips there, as well as

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Amy Martin: all of the audio from the first

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Amy Martin: two seasons of our show.

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Amy Martin: Again, all of that is at

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Amy Martin: Thresholdpodcast.org.

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Amy Martin: Huge thanks to the whole

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Amy Martin: Threshold team for bringing

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Amy Martin: this series together.

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Amy Martin: Nick Mott and I are the

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Amy Martin: producers, Eva Kalea

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Amy Martin: is our marketing and operations

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Amy Martin: director, Lynn Lieu runs

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Amy Martin: our social media, Caysi

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Amy Martin: Simpson and Brook Artziniega

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Amy Martin: are our current interns.

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Amy Martin: Meghan Myscofski was our summer

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Amy Martin: intern, Tej Teddy is

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Amy Martin: helping us write grants,

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Amy Martin: Michelle Woods is our graphic

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Amy Martin: designer and our board

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Amy Martin: includes Hana Carey, Dan

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Amy Martin: Carreno, Kara Cromwell,

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Amy Martin: Katie DeFusco, Matt Herlihy

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Amy Martin: and Rachel Klein.

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Amy Martin: Big thanks to them and

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Amy Martin: to Michael Connor and Frank

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Amy Martin: Allen.

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Amy Martin: Our music is by the

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Amy Martin: ever fabulous Travis

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Amy Martin: Yost.