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Becoming a Media Safety Advisor - What You need to Know | Ken Perry
Episode 3621st September 2022 • The Circuit Magazine Podcast • BBA Corporate Ltd
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How would you feel about always running towards the danger? If you thought telling a UHNW Principal 'no' was hard, try working with journalists. We are honoured to welcome Ken Perry, Founder, Cosain Consultancy to the Circuit Magazine Podcast to explore:

  • How could you leave your EP 'hat' at the door when protecting media?
  • What facilitation and medical skills are essential to work with correspondents and teams in hot zones?
  • Is media protection only something you should consider if you have an SF background?
  • How can you prevent your media team from becoming collateral damage?
  • What pre-preparation can media protectors do given their very short stand-by notice?
  • Why should a protector want to work with journalists and media as a career?

More about Ken:

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Cosain Consultancy:

More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe

Connect with Us: 

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Transcripts

Ken Perry:

News is news.

Ken Perry:

Everybody thinks we've, we've all worked on this, on the circuits

Ken Perry:

and seen contracts come and go.

Ken Perry:

News is ongoing and it's getting bigger.

Ken Perry:

The coverage is getting bigger.

Ken Perry:

That's for you.

Ken Perry:

Welcome to the circuit.

Ken Perry:

Scene, the number one source of information on protection matters.

Ken Perry:

The industry leading magazine for all security professionals who

Ken Perry:

want to stay ahead of the game.

Phelim Rowe:

Working in media protection today, we're delighted to welcome

Phelim Rowe:

founder of Cosan consultancy, Ken Perry to the Serga magazine podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

John MOS and myself, uh, are delighted to welcome him on,

Phelim Rowe:

because I think this is a key area.

Phelim Rowe:

A lot of people don't quite understand.

Phelim Rowe:

What do you think we're gonna get out of today, John?

Phelim Rowe:

Well, we're going.

Jon Moss:

A look at what it's like to work in this really

Jon Moss:

specialized sector of the industry.

Jon Moss:

So, you know, there's gonna be some stuff that's familiar to all of us within

Jon Moss:

protection across the board, and it's probably gonna be, you know, not so

Jon Moss:

much the textbook stuff, but the other little parts of our job that you don't

Jon Moss:

necessarily think about, when you're on your training course, and when you're

Jon Moss:

in your early transition, It it's the other parts that we bolt on to make

Jon Moss:

ourself valuable and, uh, valuable to that, uh, the, the, that client, and also

Jon Moss:

useful in the environment and in this situation, the client is very different

Jon Moss:

and the environment is different, uh, to most of us outside of hostile

Phelim Rowe:

protection.

Phelim Rowe:

Because this is a very different skill set and operation than

Phelim Rowe:

a traditional protective role.

Phelim Rowe:

People are going towards the danger.

Phelim Rowe:

The, the goal is to get the story it's to be in harm's way.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and I guess that's a very difficult position for the protector.

Phelim Rowe:

Isn't it?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, definitely.

Jon Moss:

It goes against.

Jon Moss:

Everything, all of your natural inclinations, you know, as a protector.

Jon Moss:

So, and here's the thing.

Jon Moss:

If you've, if you've transitioned from the military, as most people

Jon Moss:

do, who go into that line of work, then actually you're, you're probably

Jon Moss:

slightly better cut out for it.

Jon Moss:

And the, sooner, the transition from the military, uh, probably

Jon Moss:

the better equipped you are.

Jon Moss:

And the reason I say that is because you.

Jon Moss:

in the military, we are going towards danger.

Jon Moss:

in many cases.

Jon Moss:

And so it's only when we come into security.

Jon Moss:

And the longer you build your career as a security advisor, a consultant,

Jon Moss:

a protector, we are always trying to remove the client from danger.

Jon Moss:

Now, if you do that with the press, with journalists, They're

Jon Moss:

never gonna get their job done.

Jon Moss:

They're not gonna get the story and you are not gonna stay long in employment.

Jon Moss:

I

Phelim Rowe:

wouldn't imagine that's a tricky balance.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

You think saying no to a high net worth principle is difficult.

Phelim Rowe:

This is sort of now counterintuitive for the, for the, for the

Phelim Rowe:

role of protecting media.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so yeah, great friend of the, uh, industry, great friend

Phelim Rowe:

of the circuit magazine and the association, um, Wonderful.

Phelim Rowe:

We we're very much looking forward to hearing from Ken Perry, founder.

Phelim Rowe:

Cosin consultancy on working in media security,

Ken Perry:

and now let's meet one of the contributors to the circuit magazine.

Phelim Rowe:

Media protection for the journalist community today,

Phelim Rowe:

John Moss and myself are delighted to welcome Ken Perry, founder of

Phelim Rowe:

cosent consultancy to the podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

It's a pleasure to have you here.

Phelim Rowe:

How are you doing?

Ken Perry:

I'm doing well.

Ken Perry:

Thank you very much, guys.

Ken Perry:

A pleasure, uh, being here and thank you for having me all.

Ken Perry:

It's

Phelim Rowe:

it's, it's wonderful to have you on and, and also

Phelim Rowe:

bringing the pages of the magazine to life with this very podcast.

Phelim Rowe:

So media protection, let's go into our three quick fire questions.

Phelim Rowe:

What is the biggest challenge we're trying to solve here?

Phelim Rowe:

What's what's wrong that, you know, needs a solution right

Ken Perry:

now.

Ken Perry:

I think over recent years, I've been doing media protection since that, you

Ken Perry:

know, 2010, early 2010, I think over the kind of last five, four to five

Ken Perry:

years, there's been a big, um, spike in the threat towards journalists.

Ken Perry:

A lot of that's do with the fake news narratives that have came out.

Ken Perry:

Certainly some of the bigger networks are, are more targeted for.

Ken Perry:

And generally, you know, the whole online abuse, which gets, can be folded up when

Ken Perry:

journalists are out on the ground as well.

Ken Perry:

So that's why I think nine and recent events in Ukraine, the

Ken Perry:

demand for, um, Protection within the journalist circles, whether it

Ken Perry:

be print journalists or, uh, news networks, it's, it's greatly increased.

Ken Perry:

And,

Phelim Rowe:

and then, well, what about you, you know, where does your

Phelim Rowe:

passion for this, uh, come from?

Ken Perry:

So, um, my first job was the Haitian earthquake back in 2010.

Ken Perry:

I'd just been out there previously in, in Haiti.

Ken Perry:

Um, just doing a kind of run in the mill close protection,

Ken Perry:

executive protection role.

Ken Perry:

Um, I left, uh, luckily just before the earthquake happens.

Ken Perry:

And I got an opportunity through various kinda networks of, I got a

Ken Perry:

call to go back out and work for a large American news network in Haiti.

Ken Perry:

Um, and I noticed straight away that there was, you know, there was no courses back

Ken Perry:

then to, to be trained and working on just how to kinda learn as we went along.

Ken Perry:

And, and, and certainly with the guys that I, I was working with at the time,

Ken Perry:

but I, yeah, I noticed quite quickly there was a, a different set, a skillset.

Ken Perry:

Needed to work with, uh, journalists back then, you know, and, and certainly,

Ken Perry:

you know, the attraction to it, as well as that, um, you know, over the.

Ken Perry:

Plus years that I've been involved in it, you really, you get the wi

Ken Perry:

witness moments in history firsthand.

Phelim Rowe:

Absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

No, that's, that's very striking and I, I, I can imagine that many protectors

Phelim Rowe:

may be they're they're already in EP, uh, might be drawn to this, uh, type

Phelim Rowe:

of work, uh, for, for that very reason.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, so, so then for them, for the, for the uninitiated, those who have not

Phelim Rowe:

dipped their toes in the water and, and don't know about this field, What do

Phelim Rowe:

you think they should better understand before, uh, trying to, to get into it?

Phelim Rowe:

Well,

Ken Perry:

um, you know, on the courses that I teach, I, I kind of advise the

Ken Perry:

guys when they come in, before they start, the course is kind of take the post

Ken Perry:

protection, executive protection head off and set it the aside for a little bit.

Ken Perry:

Um, The skillset that's required to work with with, with journalists is, is,

Ken Perry:

you know, can completely different from close protection or executive protection.

Ken Perry:

And the reason for that is, is that you're, you know, you're a one man band.

Ken Perry:

You you're there to.

Ken Perry:

Know, help the guys produce the story on the ground as well, which, you

Ken Perry:

know, can, um, can be from helping the camera man out to get a, this picture,

Ken Perry:

get a shot, get a good satellite, um, a connection for, for live shots.

Ken Perry:

So it's, you know, actually a very, um, small amount of time is, is

Ken Perry:

needed to actually give security advice and do security on the grounds.

Ken Perry:

Well, to be successful working within the.

Ken Perry:

You've gotta like when with a kind of varied attitude to helping

Ken Perry:

the correspondence, the fixer, the producer, whoever that may.

Ken Perry:

Yeah,

Jon Moss:

that's really interesting.

Jon Moss:

That can, so, you know what you're saying now is you there's, there's no room to

Jon Moss:

be passive on this sort of gig, right?

Jon Moss:

You, you need to be very proactive and ready to roll your sleeves up and

Jon Moss:

get involved in the job there, which I mean, you know, is something that we

Jon Moss:

should all take that kind of mindset regardless of the sector that we work in.

Jon Moss:

But you know, one of the points that you alluded to there quite often, you

Jon Moss:

know, you're on the ground, on your.

Jon Moss:

You're not part of a team necessarily, or yes, you are part of a team,

Jon Moss:

but it's not a security team.

Jon Moss:

So you know, that, that makes us realize that, okay,

Jon Moss:

teamwork's gotta be a big skill.

Jon Moss:

Is that something you can speak to?

Jon Moss:

Is that something that, you know, you found in your experience?

Ken Perry:

Yeah, absolutely.

Ken Perry:

And that, you know, working with, uh, most news teams, the personalities are

Ken Perry:

quite similar, you know, you're dealing with, uh, you know, correspondence.

Ken Perry:

So you've got a lot of pressure on them to, to make live shots.

Ken Perry:

And get their lines right.

Ken Perry:

And for doing reports and that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

So, you know, the correspondent has a different personality than that.

Ken Perry:

That's say the producer or the cameraman, it's very high paced,

Ken Perry:

very high stress for, for the guys on the ground when they have to meet,

Ken Perry:

you know, live shot deadlines and, and live shot locations and getting

Ken Perry:

signals and that, that sort of stuff.

Ken Perry:

So wherever you can, can help any one of those individuals, you

Ken Perry:

know, successfully do their job.

Ken Perry:

It's it breaks down barriers very quickly.

Ken Perry:

And just integrate you as part of the scene.

Jon Moss:

Yeah.

Jon Moss:

I can see that.

Jon Moss:

And, you know, journalists.

Jon Moss:

A very different type of client.

Jon Moss:

Uh, you know, when you consider the traits, I mean, these, these are, uh,

Jon Moss:

guys and gods who have to put themself at great risk to get out there, to

Jon Moss:

get the story, which, you know, that must be a nightmare for a protector.

Jon Moss:

I mean, how do you deal with that?

Jon Moss:

How do you prepare yourself for that kind of shift in

Jon Moss:

dynamic for that type of client?

Ken Perry:

Um, Know, you've gotta get your head into the story straight away.

Ken Perry:

I, and it's fast paced, you know, it's, um, most, most of the guys that work for

Ken Perry:

they're probably on 30 minutes, notice to move, they get the phone calls, you

Ken Perry:

know, a narrative values is breaking news waits for no one you've gotta go.

Ken Perry:

You've gotta be ready to go.

Ken Perry:

Um, as soon as you get ready to go find out where you're going, it's

Ken Perry:

just, um, um, you know, as soon as I hit the airport, I switch off from my

Ken Perry:

own personal life and get straight.

Ken Perry:

To the story.

Ken Perry:

Um, and over the years have been educated by journalists on how to, um,

Ken Perry:

gather information using social media, the right way, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

So the more you can bring to the party before you meet the actual team where

Ken Perry:

it be on, on location or in an airport, like Hey throw or whatever it may be,

Ken Perry:

um, and just add a little bit of value and, and help them achieve their aim.

Ken Perry:

That's um, you know, I just, you know, alluded to before that's,

Ken Perry:

that's, that's the name of the game?

Ken Perry:

Um, making them hopefully get a successful story.

Jon Moss:

Yeah.

Jon Moss:

I can see that, uh, it's the type of work that your skill set is going to develop a

Jon Moss:

lot during the time that you're involved in this sector and doing this work.

Jon Moss:

And if you're working at it regularly, you know, you, you're gonna learn

Jon Moss:

a lot as you said, you know, on the job and also from the client itself,

Jon Moss:

which I think is a fairly unique.

Jon Moss:

Uh, sector in that regard, when we consider, you know, that

Jon Moss:

doesn't really happen so much in any other form of protection.

Jon Moss:

Um, but you know, that said, you've gotta start off somewhere.

Jon Moss:

So you, you know, you were fortunate as you say, you know, you were in the right

Jon Moss:

place at the right time to get your lucky.

Jon Moss:

but you know, if you're looking to get into the industry to break into the

Jon Moss:

industry, what are the fundamental skills that you need to have in your toolkit

Jon Moss:

from day one to start and where can you go to harness and to acquire those skills?

Jon Moss:

Um, well,

Ken Perry:

first of all, um, you know, we teach, I, I wrote and

Ken Perry:

developed a media safety advisors course, actually, during COVID.

Ken Perry:

And this is before Ukraine happens.

Ken Perry:

And that was just using my kind of, um, experience and skills that

Ken Perry:

I've learned over the, over the years and, and put it down on paper.

Ken Perry:

Um, that was fairly successful up until, you know, January Ukraine happens.

Ken Perry:

I deployed out the Ukraine in, in January and, um, I had to rewrite

Ken Perry:

the course once, once he came back after a couple of months out there.

Ken Perry:

So obviously doing a course prepare you as well, but, um, little things.

Ken Perry:

You know when you're there, you're primarily, well, you

Ken Perry:

are the you're the team medic.

Ken Perry:

So anything happens.

Ken Perry:

You're the first person that's going to deal with a casualty or, or an injury.

Ken Perry:

So, I mean, my biggest device is, is, is people that keep up their meds,

Ken Perry:

skill sets, uh, doing, you know, upgrade in certainly to the fr qualification.

Ken Perry:

That's what all the major news networks are looking for.

Ken Perry:

They're looking.

Ken Perry:

For, um, guys and girls really to be minimum FRA free.

Ken Perry:

Um, and, and Frank four, that that's, that's the deciding factor for a lot

Ken Perry:

of the networks to, um, They employ people, my weather app, be back, watch

Ken Perry:

on the streets of London, something we're dealing with at the, at the moment.

Ken Perry:

Unfortunately, the Queens, um, you know, are funeral and what's going on there.

Ken Perry:

There's a lot of back Watchers in London, two days, school, myself, and just seeing

Ken Perry:

how many back Watchers are on the ground.

Ken Perry:

So potentially as we news networks, like before they look for people who

Ken Perry:

have, uh, done some, some form, of course, like a media safety advisors.

Ken Perry:

Or, um, no, it's not.

Ken Perry:

Or, but additionally, the, the med med skill sets are very, very

Ken Perry:

important, um, qualification have.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and so, and so can I be interested to, to, to, to learn because

Phelim Rowe:

you know, we do get fan mail about the tactical medic versus paramedic debate.

Phelim Rowe:

We, we do get fan mail about that.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so, so, so obviously operating in London, um, there are certain.

Phelim Rowe:

Considerations restrictions and, and things like that.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, uh, but operating in a hot zone or maybe operating in the DRC, um, or, or

Phelim Rowe:

car it's a very different ball game.

Phelim Rowe:

So these skill sets are very, very desirable, but, but are

Phelim Rowe:

there any limitations, um, given the, the, the legal framework.

Ken Perry:

Um, no, there's not, I, I kind of know what, um, the question

Ken Perry:

you're asking and, and, you know, if you're in the, the middle of the DRC,

Ken Perry:

where, where I've been before and, you know, there's, there's no good

Ken Perry:

medical infrastructure, uh, around.

Ken Perry:

You're you're the only, only person that's gonna treat that

Ken Perry:

casually until you get them back.

Ken Perry:

So, you know, things about, I know there's a lot of legalities about putting drips

Ken Perry:

in giving medication, that sort of stuff working, you know, in the likes of the UK,

Ken Perry:

or certainly parts of Europe and stuff.

Ken Perry:

But.

Ken Perry:

You will go into the more remote areas and even certain places, not certain

Ken Perry:

places, but actually in Ukraine right now, given the threat that's over

Ken Perry:

there, there are no limitations, really.

Ken Perry:

I mean, if you're gonna save a life and you do whatever's necessary,

Ken Perry:

so you save a life, you know,

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah, absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, uh, you know, that's, that's, that's great.

Phelim Rowe:

That's great work and, and great if you have that skill set.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but then, but then let me reconcile that, because earlier you said that,

Phelim Rowe:

you know, sometimes you have to put your EP hat down or, or maybe you advise

Phelim Rowe:

people to, to, to put their EP hat down.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, how, how does that work in practice?

Ken Perry:

Um, I think what, you know, once you go on the grind, it's

Ken Perry:

I, the reason why, you know, I, I, I advise that to the people come

Ken Perry:

on the course it's, you know, it's.

Ken Perry:

A small percentage of your time is gonna be spent, spent actually

Ken Perry:

doing security work, standing around a camera, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

It's, you're there more to help the production of the job.

Ken Perry:

So if you've got a wrong and, and get a cameraman, a cup of coffee or

Ken Perry:

a maintenance set done in front of them, because these guys literally

Ken Perry:

forget how to eat and drink.

Ken Perry:

Cause they're so busy.

Ken Perry:

So stressed getting, you know, trying to put a package together.

Ken Perry:

That's gotta go out for a deadline.

Ken Perry:

Um, those small things go a long way in building up

Ken Perry:

relationships and making the team.

Ken Perry:

Dealing with local drivers and fixers, making sure they're included as in part

Ken Perry:

of the team, you're just trying to bring balance to the force, so to speak, you

Ken Perry:

know, um, dealing with financial matters, going by, you know, rations, if you need

Ken Perry:

them and preparing vehicles going out the next day, um, writing risk assessments.

Ken Perry:

Massively important, um, right now and, and, and well, any environment, but more

Ken Perry:

so in, in Ukraine right now, our guys develop, um, every time they move, they've

Ken Perry:

got a, write a risk assessment and those risk assess go right to the top of the

Ken Perry:

news channels, to the head of the, you know, international news, uh, before

Ken Perry:

a move can be, can be cleared to go.

Ken Perry:

So you actually, when you get on the ground and work with the news team, it's

Ken Perry:

extremely busy, extremely busy, you know?

Ken Perry:

Um, and, and that's just part of making it.

Ken Perry:

And then, especially in Ukraine right now, the amount of hardware that's

Ken Perry:

being used in Ukraine, you know, the Ukrainians are being supplied weapons

Ken Perry:

from all over the Western world.

Ken Perry:

Um, often reporters will look at you and say, well, what's the capability

Ken Perry:

of that weapon and you need to know it.

Ken Perry:

So constantly educating yourself on different weapon systems

Ken Perry:

and capabilities and tactics.

Ken Perry:

And, and there's a big threat comes from the air as well.

Ken Perry:

Drones, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

Yeah.

Ken Perry:

On a daily basis, you're a very busy person.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

That sounds, sounds, um, quite, quite challenging and quite dynamic.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, especially, especially in Ukraine right now.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

Does it help then if you have a military background, um, is, is, is, is that

Phelim Rowe:

the type type of audience we we're gonna really talk to with this podcast?

Phelim Rowe:

Or could, could it, could it be learnt from someone that's been a general.

Ken Perry:

Okay.

Ken Perry:

I mean, that, there's, that, you know, that's a pretty straightforward

Ken Perry:

that answer to that question.

Ken Perry:

If you're gonna work in, I'd like to work in Ukraine without a milit

Ken Perry:

meat backgrounds, forget about it.

Ken Perry:

You know, no news teams would, would take on anybody.

Ken Perry:

It hasn't got a milit meat background for that reason, understand a milit

Ken Perry:

tactics on the Gros, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

But that's it, um, way for guys working in, you know, the champions

Ken Perry:

league final, the Europe league final.

Ken Perry:

um, on the streets of London, right?

Ken Perry:

Covering the, the whole, um, the Queens funeral and that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

So during the back watch, there's, you know, you have the host down environment

Ken Perry:

deployments, which, you know, are typically you create, you know, a rack

Ken Perry:

of Afghanistan, that type of stuff.

Ken Perry:

Um, but you know, the back watch of capability and, and, and

Ken Perry:

doing large events like that.

Ken Perry:

I mean, you don't need to be military for that.

Ken Perry:

And we teach that again on the courses and how to work in rats and demonstration.

Ken Perry:

You know, with the amount of demonstrations that you get, you

Ken Perry:

know, in year, whether it be extension rebellion or, you know, we have Brexit

Ken Perry:

res demonstrations, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

I mean, you don't need to be actually truth to that.

Jon Moss:

So, Ken, uh, historically, you know, this is an area that

Jon Moss:

I think it's fair to say has been dominated by former SF.

Jon Moss:

And I mean, is, is that something you would agree with first of.

Ken Perry:

Yeah, absolutely.

Ken Perry:

John, when I first started, it was, um, you know, mainly, um, SF or,

Ken Perry:

you know, kind of a late units, you know, within, you know, like

Ken Perry:

SF SG or, or, or Marines or, or Paraship regimen, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

However, that's it.

Ken Perry:

One of the reasons why I wrote the course is that, you know, I was going back to

Ken Perry:

my clients and they were wanting the gold star option of, you know, an ex parachute

Ken Perry:

regiment guy or X, you know, sort.

Ken Perry:

Guy.

Ken Perry:

Um, and, and the threats got so big and the need for security has got

Ken Perry:

so, so big also it's that there's just not enough people to go around.

Ken Perry:

So that's why, you know, I kinda wrote the course, but, and, and when

Ken Perry:

you look at it, what have me been dealing with over the last 20 years?

Ken Perry:

Afghanistan, Iraq.

Ken Perry:

So there's a lot of non SF, uh, guys and girls out there with a hell of a

Ken Perry:

lot of operational knowledge that can bring lots to the table, you know?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon Moss:

I can see that.

Jon Moss:

So would you say that this is a trend that's here to stay?

Jon Moss:

So, and what I'm thinking about is any listeners.

Jon Moss:

You know, who might not be working in this area, but might have half an eye on it.

Jon Moss:

Is, is this a safe area for them to start investing in, you know, getting

Jon Moss:

the training under their belt, you know, trying to take on some work in

Jon Moss:

this area, is, is it going to endure?

Jon Moss:

I

Ken Perry:

think so.

Ken Perry:

Um, you know, with the clients that I work for, I, I, I spoke to some often members,

Ken Perry:

you know, said, you know, in place of, I mean, how do we get a food on the ladder?

Ken Perry:

And most, most areas that's, that's quite, quite hard to do.

Ken Perry:

So I spoke to my client said, look, you know, if I bring, write this

Ken Perry:

course, share this course, the modules that are containing it.

Ken Perry:

And if they set that course, would you accept that and place off experience?

Ken Perry:

And they said, yeah.

Ken Perry:

And about 90% of the people I've got in the grounds now then Ukraine, other

Ken Perry:

areas never had that experience before.

Ken Perry:

So I think once, once, I mean, Ukraine's a good.

Ken Perry:

A good place to get started and get a couple of, you know,

Ken Perry:

experiences on the CV and stuff.

Ken Perry:

Um, and after that, I mean, news is news.

Ken Perry:

Everybody thinks we've all worked on the circuit, so, and

Ken Perry:

seen contracts come and go.

Ken Perry:

News is ongoing and it's getting bigger.

Ken Perry:

The coverage is get is getting bigger.

Ken Perry:

That's for sure.

Ken Perry:

Yeah.

Jon Moss:

And, uh, you know, in just thinking about that transition

Jon Moss:

period, you know, uh, it's, it's not necessarily gonna happen overnight.

Jon Moss:

So have you got any tips for, you know, what protectors can do to stay

Jon Moss:

patient and, and also at what point, you know, maybe they should look and.

Jon Moss:

Maybe I'm actually not suited for this line of work.

Jon Moss:

Um, you know, how, how do they recognize whether they're the right

Jon Moss:

person for the job and they just need to be persistent, you know, or if, if

Jon Moss:

they're just, you know, fundamentally not suited for this type of work.

Ken Perry:

Yeah, well, you know, the news business, it's not

Ken Perry:

for the fans heart, certainly.

Ken Perry:

Um, you know, the, the more hostile frontline stuff, I think if anybody

Ken Perry:

that's going to, and I, and I'm quite honest with any, any people that I

Ken Perry:

D deploy on the grounds, you know, you're going into a situation where

Ken Perry:

you are going to face incidents.

Ken Perry:

There's no doubt about it, and it's not a natural thing to go

Ken Perry:

towards the trouble when everybody else is, is leaving the trouble.

Ken Perry:

Somebody has to be very honest with themselves before they down that

Ken Perry:

road, is that are they, you know, willing and hard to go to a frontline

Ken Perry:

situation, um, or into the middle of, of a riot situation with a news team,

Ken Perry:

you know, it can be quite unnerving.

Ken Perry:

That's that's for sure.

Ken Perry:

So I mean that, that's a conversation somebody needs to have with themselves.

Ken Perry:

Um, and I think you're, you're quite right in what you said there also, John

Ken Perry:

it's it's, you've gotta keep persist.

Ken Perry:

I've had, you know, people, um, come to me and, you know, asking for, for a job.

Ken Perry:

And it's, you know, it's very much at the right time to get on there.

Ken Perry:

And, um, And some people, I review their CVS and say, well, maybe you wanna, you

Ken Perry:

know, go and, and do, you know, invest in a better, a better medical qualification.

Ken Perry:

And it's, it's a daily challenge.

Ken Perry:

People come, they, you know, they say, well, what about F plus have

Ken Perry:

done F plus or I've done Aeri course.

Ken Perry:

And the simple fact is, is that, you know, the client gets what the client wants

Ken Perry:

in the stipulation with all the big news networks is that the FRA course, uh, FRA

Ken Perry:

three frack four course is, is what they.

Ken Perry:

And I've, and I've spoken, you know, the guys and said like, you

Ken Perry:

know, you need to do a frack course.

Ken Perry:

They have went away and, and invested in themselves in, in that course.

Ken Perry:

So, um, yeah, medicals, you know, I've said it before, it's, it's

Ken Perry:

a huge part of, of whether you get deployed or not, you know?

Jon Moss:

So from your perspective, Ken, as, as a training provider yourself, what

Jon Moss:

advice can you give to our listeners?

Jon Moss:

Who are looking for a course, you know, and, and what, what are the kind

Jon Moss:

of things that they should be taken into account to assess whether that

Jon Moss:

training provider is going to adequately prepare them for this type of work?

Ken Perry:

Um, I mean, obviously the course content going, going by, you

Ken Perry:

know, reviews off, off that trainer or whatever, but, um, you know,

Ken Perry:

the share sort of fact off it is John is that there's, there's not.

Ken Perry:

Many people out there, um, provide a, this type of training.

Ken Perry:

You know, it's very hard to combat it specifically on, on what you

Ken Perry:

need to do on the ground you operate with, with the media team.

Ken Perry:

It's, you know, the, um, the kind of media safety it's always been there

Ken Perry:

in the backgrounds, and nobody's really been able to break into it.

Ken Perry:

Cause like you, you know, you said earlier it was predominantly for the

Ken Perry:

SF kind of community, but the need and the demands for security with,

Ken Perry:

um, news teams for insurance purposes, for, you know, danger purposes.

Ken Perry:

It's just got really big over, I mean, certainly over the last, last year.

Ken Perry:

So, um, yeah, I, they kinda answer your question.

Ken Perry:

It's, you know, investing in it, training courses of more

Ken Perry:

mini safety training courses.

Ken Perry:

It helps quite a lot.

Ken Perry:

I mean, there's, you know, there are people out there that have kind of

Ken Perry:

like myself, got a lucky break and, and, and got in with the new thing.

Ken Perry:

Um, but you know, that's that.

Ken Perry:

That's just luck really?

Ken Perry:

Isn't it?

Ken Perry:

yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

So, so, so Ken, I think it'd be, it'd be great for us and, and

Phelim Rowe:

especially our listeners to, to, to look at a day in the life of a protector in a

Phelim Rowe:

media environment and, and, and the way in which they interact with with journalists.

Phelim Rowe:

Cause it, it, you know, it, it has been possible in, in other podcasts to talk

Phelim Rowe:

about when to say no, Or yes, but I know that was a tricky, that was a tricky

Phelim Rowe:

thing to say to a, to, to an executive.

Phelim Rowe:

But as, as John said, and as you said, you know, running towards danger, um,

Phelim Rowe:

can you, can you paint a picture of how that plays out in a, in a day in

Phelim Rowe:

the life of a, of a media protector?

Ken Perry:

Yeah.

Ken Perry:

I mean, that's, um, you know, if you think it's hard trying to say an executive, no.

Ken Perry:

I mean, you wanna check out journalists , you know, you're going

Ken Perry:

straight into think of the action.

Ken Perry:

So, you know, a, a typical day would.

Ken Perry:

The day before, um, the, the, the safety advisor would write a risk assessment.

Ken Perry:

So you'd speak to the correspondent, get a flavor of where they're

Ken Perry:

gonna do what they're, what, what, what they're there're to achieve.

Ken Perry:

And, you know, we, we, where safety advisors are not interested, what

Ken Perry:

they're at in the editorial S of life.

Ken Perry:

We're just interested in getting them where they need the goals and as safe as.

Ken Perry:

So the risk assessment would be, would be written, um, that would

Ken Perry:

be sent in the night before, or sometimes, you know, a half an

Ken Perry:

hour before you, you, you move off.

Ken Perry:

It just depends on the story that would be refuted, then reviewed.

Ken Perry:

And then you'd set off on that, on that particular task.

Ken Perry:

On that particular task, you know, the safety advisor he's check navigating

Ken Perry:

to towards where they need to get to, uh, checking the wires, so to

Ken Perry:

speak social media, speaking to other consultants on the grounds and getting

Ken Perry:

the flavor of what's happening in that area, where they're gonna go to.

Ken Perry:

So that's, that's usually important and, and back feeding that to

Ken Perry:

the, to the correspondence and the producer, um, and just, you know,

Ken Perry:

move towards that area, get to the area, get it set up, assess the situ.

Ken Perry:

um, check out what the situational awareness is huge part of, of, of,

Ken Perry:

of that, as well as, uh, speaking to the, the, the local driver, the local

Ken Perry:

fixer, getting their perspective, um, and you know, basically getting out

Ken Perry:

there and trying to do the job, speak to the cameraman as the cameraman, want

Ken Perry:

you to carry some sort of equipment with them, no spare batteries,

Ken Perry:

tripod, whatever that may be, and then dealing with things like checkpoints,

Ken Perry:

you know, and it's all very much.

Ken Perry:

Then you go into like, You know, the military style kind of action

Ken Perry:

on, you know, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

Um, get out there and get the story.

Ken Perry:

And usually, you know, I've found when the teams are going out on a job, they

Ken Perry:

kinda like to relax a little bit because once they're finished that shoot and

Ken Perry:

they've got that, um, the material that they want, as soon as they get in that

Ken Perry:

vehicle, or they're coming back to the base location, these guys just work at a

Ken Perry:

pace at a hundred miles an hour because they have to put that package together so

Ken Perry:

that, you know, these guys are coming on a huge amount of stress and anything, um,

Ken Perry:

you can do to make their life a little bit easier and a little bit smooth.

Ken Perry:

Um, really does go a long way, which is why, you know, from the beginning,

Ken Perry:

when I teach the courses to tell, you know, the guys and the girls just take

Ken Perry:

that kind of post protection, head off a little bit and understands the function

Ken Perry:

of what each person does in the team.

Ken Perry:

The producer has a certain, um, you know, um, function, the cameraman,

Ken Perry:

obviously in and the correspondent.

Ken Perry:

And you can help them out in a little way, uh, in your own way,

Ken Perry:

which, which really goes down well and helps the team achieve areas.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and, and in trying to, you know, be, be a fixer, be, be

Phelim Rowe:

an enabler, you know, obviously that, that that's got innate business value

Phelim Rowe:

and, and they can definitely see, uh, the value in, in, in what you are doing.

Phelim Rowe:

But yeah, on the other side, do you ever find that there's a temptation

Phelim Rowe:

to stop them being in harm's way or being collateral damage?

Phelim Rowe:

Now I'm beating around the Bush a little bit because in January, Of a given

Phelim Rowe:

year, there was an incident where some journalists were targeted by actors

Phelim Rowe:

who were, you know, public sector.

Phelim Rowe:

And that's an issue because obviously that's your client and they're in

Phelim Rowe:

harm's way and they're potentially in collateral collateral damage territory.

Phelim Rowe:

And is that somewhere where you step in and say right?

Phelim Rowe:

Actually,

Ken Perry:

no.

Ken Perry:

Yeah, of course.

Ken Perry:

Um, I mean, I've.

Ken Perry:

Many times throughout my, my career where you have to step in, but you know,

Ken Perry:

before you do that, and you do say, no, you've really gotta do your homework and

Ken Perry:

explain to these guys why you're saying no, you know, putting the, you know, that

Ken Perry:

it's, you know, it's operation certain desk as you go down a certain road to

Ken Perry:

get a certain, you know, piece of piece of footage or, or whatever it may be.

Ken Perry:

Um, and, and in my experience, you know, it comes to a point where

Ken Perry:

you do explain it and you explain the risks and highlight the risks.

Ken Perry:

Um, And, and still they want to go, well, you know, it gets to a point, well, we

Ken Perry:

have to look at your own self-preservation and think, okay, well, you know, if we,

Ken Perry:

we go to achieve, you know, you try to achieve what you're trying to do this way,

Ken Perry:

you know, we're certainly gonna, you know, get into the, um, get in the territory

Ken Perry:

of either being injured or being killed.

Ken Perry:

So, you know, um, if.

Ken Perry:

Certainly I've had it in occasions where I've just thought

Ken Perry:

that's, that's too much for me.

Ken Perry:

And I'll politely say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not willing to take that risk.

Ken Perry:

And you know, you don't wanna become, become the story.

Ken Perry:

You know, you wanna get the story, not become the story mm-hmm um, and every

Ken Perry:

time I've laid that out and, and lay down, you know, my, my reasons for, for

Ken Perry:

that decision, you know, 99% of the time.

Ken Perry:

You know, they, that the journalists will listen to that.

Jon Moss:

Ah, I love that answer there, Ken.

Jon Moss:

I mean, it takes me back to my time working in hostile environments,

Jon Moss:

particularly thinking about Afghanistan here, running a security team, and you're

Jon Moss:

working with effectively civilians, you know, who are coming across and working

Jon Moss:

in a war zone, still trying to do a job.

Jon Moss:

I, I, I come up against a lot of, uh, friction and pushback in, in that role.

Jon Moss:

And I also observed how some of my peers were going about this job.

Jon Moss:

And, and a lot of them, especially those who were, uh, you know,

Jon Moss:

fresh outta the military, had this idea that you could simply say no.

Jon Moss:

And the authority of your position.

Jon Moss:

meant that that was it.

Jon Moss:

Conversation closed.

Jon Moss:

That's it done?

Jon Moss:

I said, no, you're not going out.

Jon Moss:

And that's it.

Jon Moss:

End of story.

Jon Moss:

and I see these people.

Jon Moss:

Not, uh, having the kind of longevity in the position that maybe they assumed they

Jon Moss:

would have when they first started work.

Jon Moss:

And, and I think, you know, that really speaks to that point

Jon Moss:

of not only, you know, yeah.

Jon Moss:

You've, you've gotta do your assessments.

Jon Moss:

You've gotta understand the risk, but you also need to be able

Jon Moss:

to communicate the reason why.

Jon Moss:

So you need to do your research and you need to be able to communicate that.

Jon Moss:

And then.

Jon Moss:

you have to have your ego in check to be able to get, uh, contrasting

Jon Moss:

opinion back and be able to handle that.

Jon Moss:

And, you know, I, I think that's something that, uh, everyone could do well to learn.

Jon Moss:

As early in their journey as possible.

Jon Moss:

It's it, that's a fantastic point.

Ken Perry:

No, absolutely.

Ken Perry:

John, um, I mean, I can draw it back to 2014.

Ken Perry:

I was in Gaza with, um, you know, a news network, major news network

Ken Perry:

had never been in Gaza before.

Ken Perry:

And the correspondent that I was working with had a huge amount of experience,

Ken Perry:

like 20 years experience of being in Gaza.

Ken Perry:

Um, and you.

Ken Perry:

It, it, you know, you'd mentioned about ego.

Ken Perry:

Um, that's certainly one thing you can't carry into, into working

Ken Perry:

with journalists, bringing it, you know, a kinda ego with you.

Ken Perry:

Cause you're dealing with, um, you're dealing with people who have been.

Ken Perry:

You know, working in hostile environments for, you know, 30, 40 years.

Ken Perry:

And in some cases, you know, that I've some real senior

Ken Perry:

journalists that I've worked for.

Ken Perry:

And certainly drawn back to my time in Gaza.

Ken Perry:

You know, I was going, I was, I was asking the correspondent a lot of security

Ken Perry:

questions about Gaza and actually taking advice off him and learned a hell of a lot

Ken Perry:

about the people, the ground, you know, the, the area that we were operating in.

Ken Perry:

Um, you know, if you walk down some sort of Eagle it's.

Ken Perry:

Yeah, you're, we're done for, you know, um, but you know, they're

Ken Perry:

just on this conversation, there is, there is a chain of command, so to

Ken Perry:

speak within the networks as well.

Ken Perry:

You know, most the networks they have, what we call the desk or, um, in American

Ken Perry:

terms, they call the bridge in some cases.

Ken Perry:

And that really is what, what the foreign desk.

Ken Perry:

um, and the reporting that's for us to understand that's like the

Ken Perry:

option in the military terms.

Ken Perry:

So every time the journalists move, usually it's the producer.

Ken Perry:

They have to feed back to the desk.

Ken Perry:

Of where they're going and what they're going to do.

Ken Perry:

Um, and if you come into situation where, you know, they want to go,

Ken Perry:

but you don't think it's right, you can always refer back to the desk and

Ken Perry:

explain to the desk or cause it happens.

Ken Perry:

You know, it's a fact of life, you get a clash of personalities, you get

Ken Perry:

correspondence that particularly don't want, you know, they, sometimes they

Ken Perry:

see having media security with them as a bit of a block to what they want to do.

Ken Perry:

So, you know, that's, you've gotta build a relationship up there cuz

Ken Perry:

you're going against the tide.

Ken Perry:

Some in some cases.

Ken Perry:

Where they just see you there as the, to stop them from what they're doing.

Ken Perry:

And so, so building up, um, relationships again is, is really important and managing

Ken Perry:

personalities, but, um, yeah, you know, talking about going back to the desk,

Ken Perry:

which have done a lot of times and, and explains, you know, I don't think it's

Ken Perry:

a good reason we go here cause of, you know, ABC, you know, the desk can kinda

Ken Perry:

handle it and interject and say, well, okay, we don't want you to do that story

Ken Perry:

today or whatever it may be, you know?

Phelim Rowe:

And so with that, in that, in that context, um, and, and you mentioned

Phelim Rowe:

before, you know, gotta be prepared, gotta be able to do their research.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, of course there'll be all sorts of wonderful intelligence feeds

Phelim Rowe:

that you can buy and subscribe to.

Phelim Rowe:

And, uh, and, and, uh, you know, uh, protest intelligence

Phelim Rowe:

and, and this and that, but.

Phelim Rowe:

Is it, is it really just to get started?

Phelim Rowe:

Do, would you say to them get an economist subscription or, uh, buy

Phelim Rowe:

the odd Ft or, or something like that?

Phelim Rowe:

Is, is it as simple as that to get them going with current affairs

Phelim Rowe:

or, or is there something more specialized they should be looking at?

Ken Perry:

I that's a great question.

Ken Perry:

I mean, we, we, you know, it's.

Ken Perry:

There's different news out there, which some of them not gonna gonna, gonna

Ken Perry:

mention, which are worth be watching better than others, you know, staying

Ken Perry:

up, you know what I do as, as that, you know, I'm not, I don't have to say Glu to

Ken Perry:

the news all day there certain channels that I'll watch and I'll rise around.

Ken Perry:

Um, um, And see what's, what's potentially happening in the words.

Ken Perry:

I mean, Twitter, you can't really get anything better than if

Ken Perry:

subscriptions did look on Twitter and what's going on in the words.

Ken Perry:

And if I see, you know, something potentially kind of bubbling somewhere,

Ken Perry:

then I'll focus in on that area a little bit more, um, and try and find

Ken Perry:

out what, you know, what's going on, what the threat is, that type of thing.

Ken Perry:

So if you do get that call, um, to go anywhere.

Ken Perry:

Half the battles, knowing what's, what's actually going on in, in that country.

Ken Perry:

You know, just getting yourself sort of started a little bit.

Ken Perry:

Um, I think, I think, you know, how do you get on this?

Ken Perry:

The, the biggest opportunity I think in recent times is certainly what's

Ken Perry:

going on in Ukraine right now.

Ken Perry:

Um, where's a, a lot of people that have been deployed in Ukraine that

Ken Perry:

have never worked in the, in the media security industry before.

Ken Perry:

um, and you know, constantly keeping up the date on, you

Ken Perry:

know, what's going on with earth.

Ken Perry:

That's, it's, it's, it's huge.

Ken Perry:

They, they get your knowledge of, of that place, you know?

Phelim Rowe:

And, and on top of the knowledge of that place, I suppose, the

Phelim Rowe:

ability to get there, maybe not, not, Ukraine's probably not gonna apply there.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but.

Phelim Rowe:

Should, should they take the preemptive step of going, you know what, this

Phelim Rowe:

is probably an area of, lots of work.

Phelim Rowe:

I'm gonna get myself a visa, um, or a multiry visa or, or something like that.

Phelim Rowe:

Or is, or is this all done very much on the hoof sorted out by

Phelim Rowe:

your, your, your, your employer, um, the agency, um, or, or, or is it

Phelim Rowe:

something that a protector could go?

Phelim Rowe:

Do you know what, that, that's an opportunity?

Ken Perry:

Uh, you just meant you just raised a really good point there.

Ken Perry:

Um, you know, Getting a visa, for instance, mul visa or whatever, if

Ken Perry:

you've got that ability to do so.

Ken Perry:

Um, for, for some countries, Know, if you contact many of the different,

Ken Perry:

um, companies that hire guys to go out and do media security, you know, if

Ken Perry:

you phone 'em up, you tell me you've got, you've got a visa in place.

Ken Perry:

You've got like, let's say you need inoculation to go.

Ken Perry:

And certain companies now you've got that in place, your, your meds, um, skills

Ken Perry:

and your certificates are up the date.

Ken Perry:

I mean, those guys that will just, that will get you job straight away.

Ken Perry:

You know, they'll, um, rather than wait for somebody to get a visa and I I've done

Ken Perry:

it in the past myself actually, you know, got myself visa up for certain companies

Ken Perry:

or had that visa already in the passport and the ability to move quite quickly.

Ken Perry:

I

Jon Moss:

take it.

Jon Moss:

There wasn't many anti-vaxxers, uh, working in media safety, then

Ken Perry:

no, no, it's, you know, you gotta compromise your morals if you

Ken Perry:

wanna, if you wanna work really, you know?

Ken Perry:

Um, and I, you know, when COVID came around, certainly said that to a lot of

Ken Perry:

guys, it's like, well, you know, whether you're on the vs or not, if you wanna

Ken Perry:

work, you gotta take that job, you know?

Ken Perry:

Cause that's.

Ken Perry:

That was not so much nice.

Ken Perry:

It's kind of Fe night a little bit, but, um, yeah, you know, that's

Ken Perry:

certainly that was a big requirement.

Ken Perry:

You have to be, you know, kind of double jobbed and booster

Ken Perry:

and all that kind of thing.

Ken Perry:

And if you weren't, they'd just go to the next person and take the next

Ken Perry:

person who's available, you know?

Ken Perry:

Yeah.

Jon Moss:

And, and to kind of perhaps end this off with how we started, which

Jon Moss:

is, uh, referencing your article in the latest edition of the circuit magazine.

Jon Moss:

In that article, you list some great points, uh, 12 points about how to

Jon Moss:

break into the industry and, you know, be, be successful and stay in it.

Jon Moss:

And the one that really catches my eye is, uh, the final point that you

Jon Moss:

made there, uh, have a sense of humor and knowing you as well as I do.

Jon Moss:

I know that's something that, uh, you wouldn't have struggled with

Jon Moss:

yourself, but have you got any tips, uh, for anyone else who's who's,

Jon Moss:

you know, coming into the industry.

Ken Perry:

Ah, I mean, you know, you're gonna watch, you gotta walk, you walk in

Ken Perry:

and there you're gonna, you're gonna walk.

Ken Perry:

If you've never worked in that, in this area of the industry before

Ken Perry:

you're gonna be, um, listener can be quite daunting for a lot of people.

Ken Perry:

They go in and work with, uh, you know, a big correspondent who's well known.

Ken Perry:

You've maybe seen them yourself on TV quite a lot, and now

Ken Perry:

you're working with them.

Ken Perry:

You gotta build that rapport.

Ken Perry:

And ultimately, you know, you've gotta give them advice if they, you know,

Ken Perry:

if it's needed, um, And, you know, breaking down the barriers, um, the,

Ken Perry:

the social barriers within the team, um, and just knowing you're gonna be

Ken Perry:

working in a high tense environment and, and, and don't take things personally,

Ken Perry:

I've been screamed up by cameraman, by producers, by correspondence

Ken Perry:

and, and took it on the chin.

Ken Perry:

But, you know, Start them back later on for it.

Phelim Rowe:

you know, love it.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, well, absolutely.

Phelim Rowe:

You've, you've painted a great picture.

Phelim Rowe:

I'm I'm sure there'll be people who have not considered it before and are

Phelim Rowe:

now very much considering it, uh, as well as people have, you know, they need

Phelim Rowe:

your guidance, they need a course such as yours to, to sort of get in there.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but, uh, but yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

How, how, how could people get in touch with you?

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, as, uh, as, as the weeks and months go.

Phelim Rowe:

Um,

Ken Perry:

on the website, really, we, uh, we regularly post, um, dates of

Ken Perry:

courses on, on our website and, you know, they're open to everybody and anybody

Ken Perry:

and have designed the course in such a way that we cover both aspects of it.

Ken Perry:

So we'll cover the whole kind of back watch, um, being able to work

Ken Perry:

in rats as demonstrations and, and, you know, covering the events

Ken Perry:

that's going on in London now.

Ken Perry:

And.

Ken Perry:

So to the other end of planning, like a, you know, a frontline operate daily

Ken Perry:

operation in, in, in the like Ukraine.

Ken Perry:

Um, yeah, but we're running a course, I think on the 26th, 27th

Ken Perry:

this month, um, What we also do.

Ken Perry:

We also train freelance journalists as well.

Ken Perry:

And that's a great way for us to keep our kind of currency up of,

Ken Perry:

um, of, of training, you know, guys and guard that work in media with

Ken Perry:

media as a media CFD advisor as well.

Ken Perry:

Fantastic.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, um, you know, thank you very much for coming on.

Phelim Rowe:

Thank you for running the article.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, I, I, I, I love this dynamic and I, and I, and I think

Phelim Rowe:

there's, there's more to explore.

Phelim Rowe:

There's more to explore.

Phelim Rowe:

Isn't.

Jon Moss:

Yeah, for sure.

Jon Moss:

It's, it's been so good.

Jon Moss:

You know, we could have kept on going easily for another hour.

Jon Moss:

Maybe we'll have to get Ken back.

Jon Moss:

If he's got time.

Jon Moss:

He's a busy guy.

Ken Perry:

Yeah.

Ken Perry:

Pleasure being here.

Ken Perry:

Thank you so much for having me and, uh, yeah.

Ken Perry:

Look forward to the next time.

Phelim Rowe:

Well, thanks very much.

Phelim Rowe:

And this has been a fantastic look at media protection and journalist safety.

Phelim Rowe:

So, uh, from John and myself, thank you very much.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, Ken, this has been another fantastic edition of these

Phelim Rowe:

circuit magazine podcasts.

Phelim Rowe:

Thank you very much to Ken Perry, founder of cos end consultancy.

Phelim Rowe:

Great friend of the magazine, the association.

Phelim Rowe:

And, you know what, I think this is a new pivot for the protector, because

Phelim Rowe:

as we said at the beginning, this is exactly the opposite direction

Phelim Rowe:

you're going towards danger.

Phelim Rowe:

You're trying to not ever say no to media and journalists.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and I wonder if this is peaked a few people's interests,

Phelim Rowe:

John, what, what do you think?

Jon Moss:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon Moss:

I mean, you know, we, this, this is one of those jobs that kind of

Jon Moss:

falls into that sexy role, isn't it?

Jon Moss:

Or at.

Jon Moss:

It isn't the imagination.

Jon Moss:

I think, uh, Ken might have dispelled a little bit of that

Jon Moss:

with stories of making cups of tea for camera crew and, and so on.

Jon Moss:

But, you know, it's great to get a real picture of what it's like to be

Jon Moss:

on the ground and you know, it, it, it's absolutely essential for anybody

Jon Moss:

thinking about going into this line of work that you need to understand.

Jon Moss:

The, uh, you know, the, the kind of bricks and mortar of it, you need to be

Jon Moss:

aware that you're gonna have to leave your ego at the door and be prepared

Jon Moss:

to muck in and, and be a part of a team

Phelim Rowe:

and also be, be prepared to do a lot of current affairs reading.

Phelim Rowe:

Maybe sometimes with no specific goal in mind, maybe it's.

Phelim Rowe:

I mean, he, he, he, he, he didn't want to, uh, send us down onto any particular

Phelim Rowe:

publication, but I, I think a wide range of reading around the world will current

Phelim Rowe:

affairs, uh, given that at any one stage, one of those, uh, stories will develop.

Phelim Rowe:

And then that's you getting in there?

Phelim Rowe:

So, so, so that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it?

Phelim Rowe:

Cuz if I was working for a fortune 500 company, I'd do my research.

Phelim Rowe:

I'd understand what they do, but, but, but this is, this is a lot broader.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, how, how, how beyond reading the newspaper, do you think we

Phelim Rowe:

can sort of solve that John?

Phelim Rowe:

Well, I've got an

Jon Moss:

easy answer.

Jon Moss:

For that.

Jon Moss:

And it does feel like you've set me up for this, but you know, the

Jon Moss:

circuit magazine and, and, uh, through the associations, you know,

Jon Moss:

we, we provide, uh, a daily brief.

Jon Moss:

So we are collating news from all over the world.

Jon Moss:

This is not our interpretation of it.

Jon Moss:

We're, we're just collecting all of the main headlines.

Jon Moss:

What's going on and, and a lot of it it's, so it's not news about bodyguards

Jon Moss:

or what's happening in the world of close protection or anything like that

Jon Moss:

necessarily, but it is the current affairs what's going on around the world.

Jon Moss:

The things that might be impacting our principles, our clients,

Jon Moss:

you know, ourselves and, you know, just so that we've got a

Jon Moss:

general awareness at all times.

Jon Moss:

And then, you know, we build upon that with the weekly newsletter and we have a

Jon Moss:

really in depth feature in that provided by our partners at Strat for which

Jon Moss:

is a fantastic service in, in that, that, you know, that's another service

Jon Moss:

that if you want to pay money for.

Jon Moss:

That's a fantastic one.

Jon Moss:

And then on top of that, we also then put out the magazine and of course the

Jon Moss:

magazine, you know, has a whole section dedicated to, uh, global situation report.

Jon Moss:

So again, you know, it's wherever, whatever your trusted source is, you know,

Jon Moss:

find that, make sure it's comprehensive, you know, and covers the whole spectrum.

Jon Moss:

Because as we found out there with Ken, you know, you never

Jon Moss:

know where you're going to be.

Jon Moss:

And, and I think Ken said, Know, he has his guys, a 30 minutes, uh,

Jon Moss:

notice to move, which is incredible.

Jon Moss:

Especially if you don't know where you're going to be moving to, you know, so you

Jon Moss:

have to be able to get up to speed very fast and, you know, become an asset

Jon Moss:

to those guys and goals on the ground.

Jon Moss:

They're relying on you.

Phelim Rowe:

And, and that asset, that facilitator that's,

Phelim Rowe:

that's an interesting role.

Phelim Rowe:

Cause cause there are a lot of protectors that you.

Phelim Rowe:

You know, dabbling concierge services and, uh, you know,

Phelim Rowe:

helping, helping out in other ways.

Phelim Rowe:

But this seems the all rounder position, but also one of the most challenging one.

Phelim Rowe:

You don't know where the threat's coming from?

Phelim Rowe:

Who, who are they?

Phelim Rowe:

They're not typical.

Phelim Rowe:

They're not this.

Phelim Rowe:

They're not that they're, they're not public private.

Phelim Rowe:

They they're they're everything and nothing.

Phelim Rowe:

It's, it's, it's a very dynamic situation which hopefully our listeners will

Phelim Rowe:

warm to and, uh, and reach out to Kim.

Phelim Rowe:

Cuz of course he, he does run, uh, his, uh, very, you know, respected court and.

Phelim Rowe:

And I think that's a good, that's a good entry point, um,

Phelim Rowe:

into, into, into that world.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, but you mentioned the magazine and you mentioned, uh, all of our other work and,

Phelim Rowe:

and so it would be remiss me not to once again, invite people, uh, next week, uh,

Phelim Rowe:

on the afternoon of the 27th of September.

Phelim Rowe:

They're very welcome to come to our circuit magazine meetup in the keep of

Phelim Rowe:

Brook green pub behind Kensington Olympia.

Phelim Rowe:

Uh, why are we doing it there?

Phelim Rowe:

And then, because that is of course, uh, right next to the

Phelim Rowe:

international security expo, uh, where, uh, we are a media partner

Phelim Rowe:

aren't we, uh, with the association.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so, so, so absolutely they should come stop by I'm there from 4:00 PM

Phelim Rowe:

onwards on the 27th of September.

Phelim Rowe:

But what else do we have coming up?

Phelim Rowe:

Because, you know, we, we, we've just launched, uh, the magazine,

Phelim Rowe:

not, uh, just a few weeks ago.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, what, uh, what's next on the horizon.

Phelim Rowe:

Yeah.

Phelim Rowe:

So

Jon Moss:

this is a busy time when we're, uh, you know, putting

Jon Moss:

together the next issue when we're trying to, you know, build.

Jon Moss:

Uh, a theme and a feel and obviously looking out for good quality articles.

Jon Moss:

So, you know, if you're interested, if there's something burning on your mind,

Jon Moss:

if you think there's something we haven't covered recently in the magazine, then

Jon Moss:

either let us know your thoughts, what you want to hear more of, or indeed

Jon Moss:

write it yourself and send it into us.

Phelim Rowe:

Wonderful and we'll, and we'll help, you know, you could

Phelim Rowe:

be first time writer will help, um, or you could be long time,

Phelim Rowe:

uh, long term contributor as well.

Phelim Rowe:

Um, so, so, so very much looking forward to that, um, date for diary.

Phelim Rowe:

Is it too early for me to do an extra date for diary for January

Phelim Rowe:

is January too far away or is it fast coming around the corner?

Phelim Rowe:

You've gone there now.

Phelim Rowe:

all right.

Phelim Rowe:

All right.

Phelim Rowe:

26th of January, the eighth annual executive security closed

Phelim Rowe:

protection technology forum in London, grand corner rooms.

Phelim Rowe:

Please add that to your dates for diary.

Phelim Rowe:

It does not clash with the world economic forum.

Phelim Rowe:

I'm sure of that.

Phelim Rowe:

And it is very much, uh, you know, an event, uh, on the calendar to include.

Phelim Rowe:

So that's 26th of January.

Phelim Rowe:

However that doesn't preclude you coming to see us next week on the 27th of

Phelim Rowe:

September at the keeper Brook green green.

Phelim Rowe:

So thank you very much to Ken.

Phelim Rowe:

CEO and founder of Cosan consultancy for talking about this crucial and

Phelim Rowe:

fascinating media safety and security protection topic, uh, from John Moss and

Phelim Rowe:

myself, this has been another fantastic edition of the circuit magazine podcast.

Ken Perry:

You have.

Ken Perry:

Listening to the circuit magazine podcast, be sure to subscribe and