How would you feel about always running towards the danger? If you thought telling a UHNW Principal 'no' was hard, try working with journalists. We are honoured to welcome Ken Perry, Founder, Cosain Consultancy to the Circuit Magazine Podcast to explore:

• How could you leave your EP 'hat' at the door when protecting media?
• What facilitation and medical skills are essential to work with correspondents and teams in hot zones?
• Is media protection only something you should consider if you have an SF background?
• How can you prevent your media team from becoming collateral damage?
• What pre-preparation can media protectors do given their very short stand-by notice?
• Why should a protector want to work with journalists and media as a career?

More about Ken:

LinkedIn:

Cosain Consultancy:

More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

• Elijah Shaw
• Jon Moss
• Shaun West
• Phelim Rowe

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News is news.

Everybody thinks we've, we've all worked on this, on the circuits

and seen contracts come and go.

News is ongoing and it's getting bigger.

The coverage is getting bigger.

That's for you.

Welcome to the circuit.

Scene, the number one source of information on protection matters.

The industry leading magazine for all security professionals who

want to stay ahead of the game.

Working in media protection today, we're delighted to welcome

founder of Cosan consultancy, Ken Perry to the Serga magazine podcast.

John MOS and myself, uh, are delighted to welcome him on,

because I think this is a key area.

A lot of people don't quite understand.

What do you think we're gonna get out of today, John?

Well, we're going.

A look at what it's like to work in this really

specialized sector of the industry.

So, you know, there's gonna be some stuff that's familiar to all of us within

protection across the board, and it's probably gonna be, you know, not so

much the textbook stuff, but the other little parts of our job that you don't

necessarily think about, when you're on your training course, and when you're

in your early transition, It it's the other parts that we bolt on to make

ourself valuable and, uh, valuable to that, uh, the, the, that client, and also

useful in the environment and in this situation, the client is very different

and the environment is different, uh, to most of us outside of hostile

protection.

Because this is a very different skill set and operation than

a traditional protective role.

People are going towards the danger.

The, the goal is to get the story it's to be in harm's way.

And, and I guess that's a very difficult position for the protector.

Isn't it?

Yeah, definitely.

It goes against.

Everything, all of your natural inclinations, you know, as a protector.

So, and here's the thing.

If you've, if you've transitioned from the military, as most people

do, who go into that line of work, then actually you're, you're probably

slightly better cut out for it.

And the, sooner, the transition from the military, uh, probably

the better equipped you are.

And the reason I say that is because you.

in the military, we are going towards danger.

in many cases.

And so it's only when we come into security.

And the longer you build your career as a security advisor, a consultant,

a protector, we are always trying to remove the client from danger.

Now, if you do that with the press, with journalists, They're

never gonna get their job done.

They're not gonna get the story and you are not gonna stay long in employment.

I

wouldn't imagine that's a tricky balance.

Yeah.

You think saying no to a high net worth principle is difficult.

This is sort of now counterintuitive for the, for the, for the

role of protecting media.

Um, so yeah, great friend of the, uh, industry, great friend

of the circuit magazine and the association, um, Wonderful.

We we're very much looking forward to hearing from Ken Perry, founder.

Cosin consultancy on working in media security,

and now let's meet one of the contributors to the circuit magazine.

Media protection for the journalist community today,

John Moss and myself are delighted to welcome Ken Perry, founder of

cosent consultancy to the podcast.

It's a pleasure to have you here.

How are you doing?

I'm doing well.

Thank you very much, guys.

A pleasure, uh, being here and thank you for having me all.

It's

it's, it's wonderful to have you on and, and also

bringing the pages of the magazine to life with this very podcast.

So media protection, let's go into our three quick fire questions.

What is the biggest challenge we're trying to solve here?

What's what's wrong that, you know, needs a solution right

now.

I think over recent years, I've been doing media protection since that, you

know, 2010, early 2010, I think over the kind of last five, four to five

years, there's been a big, um, spike in the threat towards journalists.

A lot of that's do with the fake news narratives that have came out.

Certainly some of the bigger networks are, are more targeted for.

And generally, you know, the whole online abuse, which gets, can be folded up when

journalists are out on the ground as well.

So that's why I think nine and recent events in Ukraine, the

demand for, um, Protection within the journalist circles, whether it

be print journalists or, uh, news networks, it's, it's greatly increased.

And,

and then, well, what about you, you know, where does your

passion for this, uh, come from?

So, um, my first job was the Haitian earthquake back in 2010.

I'd just been out there previously in, in Haiti.

Um, just doing a kind of run in the mill close protection,

executive protection role.

Um, I left, uh, luckily just before the earthquake happens.

And I got an opportunity through various kinda networks of, I got a

call to go back out and work for a large American news network in Haiti.

Um, and I noticed straight away that there was, you know, there was no courses back

then to, to be trained and working on just how to kinda learn as we went along.

And, and, and certainly with the guys that I, I was working with at the time,

but I, yeah, I noticed quite quickly there was a, a different set, a skillset.

Needed to work with, uh, journalists back then, you know, and, and certainly,

you know, the attraction to it, as well as that, um, you know, over the.

Plus years that I've been involved in it, you really, you get the wi

witness moments in history firsthand.

Absolutely.

No, that's, that's very striking and I, I, I can imagine that many protectors

may be they're they're already in EP, uh, might be drawn to this, uh, type

of work, uh, for, for that very reason.

Uh, so, so then for them, for the, for the uninitiated, those who have not

dipped their toes in the water and, and don't know about this field, What do

you think they should better understand before, uh, trying to, to get into it?

Well,

um, you know, on the courses that I teach, I, I kind of advise the

guys when they come in, before they start, the course is kind of take the post

protection, executive protection head off and set it the aside for a little bit.

Um, The skillset that's required to work with with, with journalists is, is,

you know, can completely different from close protection or executive protection.

And the reason for that is, is that you're, you know, you're a one man band.

You you're there to.

Know, help the guys produce the story on the ground as well, which, you

know, can, um, can be from helping the camera man out to get a, this picture,

get a shot, get a good satellite, um, a connection for, for live shots.

So it's, you know, actually a very, um, small amount of time is, is

needed to actually give security advice and do security on the grounds.

Well, to be successful working within the.

You've gotta like when with a kind of varied attitude to helping

the correspondence, the fixer, the producer, whoever that may.

Yeah,

that's really interesting.

That can, so, you know what you're saying now is you there's, there's no room to

be passive on this sort of gig, right?

You, you need to be very proactive and ready to roll your sleeves up and

get involved in the job there, which I mean, you know, is something that we

should all take that kind of mindset regardless of the sector that we work in.

But you know, one of the points that you alluded to there quite often, you

know, you're on the ground, on your.

You're not part of a team necessarily, or yes, you are part of a team,

but it's not a security team.

So you know, that, that makes us realize that, okay,

teamwork's gotta be a big skill.

Is that something you can speak to?

Is that something that, you know, you found in your experience?

Yeah, absolutely.

And that, you know, working with, uh, most news teams, the personalities are

quite similar, you know, you're dealing with, uh, you know, correspondence.

So you've got a lot of pressure on them to, to make live shots.

And get their lines right.

And for doing reports and that type of thing.

So, you know, the correspondent has a different personality than that.

That's say the producer or the cameraman, it's very high paced,

very high stress for, for the guys on the ground when they have to meet,

you know, live shot deadlines and, and live shot locations and getting

signals and that, that sort of stuff.

So wherever you can, can help any one of those individuals, you

know, successfully do their job.

It's it breaks down barriers very quickly.

And just integrate you as part of the scene.

Yeah.

I can see that.

And, you know, journalists.

A very different type of client.

Uh, you know, when you consider the traits, I mean, these, these are, uh,

guys and gods who have to put themself at great risk to get out there, to

get the story, which, you know, that must be a nightmare for a protector.

I mean, how do you deal with that?

How do you prepare yourself for that kind of shift in

dynamic for that type of client?

Um, Know, you've gotta get your head into the story straight away.

I, and it's fast paced, you know, it's, um, most, most of the guys that work for

they're probably on 30 minutes, notice to move, they get the phone calls, you

know, a narrative values is breaking news waits for no one you've gotta go.

You've gotta be ready to go.

Um, as soon as you get ready to go find out where you're going, it's

just, um, um, you know, as soon as I hit the airport, I switch off from my

own personal life and get straight.

To the story.

Um, and over the years have been educated by journalists on how to, um,

gather information using social media, the right way, that type of thing.

So the more you can bring to the party before you meet the actual team where

it be on, on location or in an airport, like Hey throw or whatever it may be,

um, and just add a little bit of value and, and help them achieve their aim.

That's um, you know, I just, you know, alluded to before that's,

that's, that's the name of the game?

Um, making them hopefully get a successful story.

Yeah.

I can see that, uh, it's the type of work that your skill set is going to develop a

lot during the time that you're involved in this sector and doing this work.

And if you're working at it regularly, you know, you, you're gonna learn

a lot as you said, you know, on the job and also from the client itself,

which I think is a fairly unique.

Uh, sector in that regard, when we consider, you know, that

doesn't really happen so much in any other form of protection.

Um, but you know, that said, you've gotta start off somewhere.

So you, you know, you were fortunate as you say, you know, you were in the right

place at the right time to get your lucky.

but you know, if you're looking to get into the industry to break into the

industry, what are the fundamental skills that you need to have in your toolkit

from day one to start and where can you go to harness and to acquire those skills?

Um, well,

first of all, um, you know, we teach, I, I wrote and

developed a media safety advisors course, actually, during COVID.

And this is before Ukraine happens.

And that was just using my kind of, um, experience and skills that

I've learned over the, over the years and, and put it down on paper.

Um, that was fairly successful up until, you know, January Ukraine happens.

I deployed out the Ukraine in, in January and, um, I had to rewrite

the course once, once he came back after a couple of months out there.

So obviously doing a course prepare you as well, but, um, little things.

You know when you're there, you're primarily, well, you

are the you're the team medic.

So anything happens.

You're the first person that's going to deal with a casualty or, or an injury.

So, I mean, my biggest device is, is, is people that keep up their meds,

skill sets, uh, doing, you know, upgrade in certainly to the fr qualification.

That's what all the major news networks are looking for.

They're looking.

For, um, guys and girls really to be minimum FRA free.

Um, and, and Frank four, that that's, that's the deciding factor for a lot

of the networks to, um, They employ people, my weather app, be back, watch

on the streets of London, something we're dealing with at the, at the moment.

Unfortunately, the Queens, um, you know, are funeral and what's going on there.

There's a lot of back Watchers in London, two days, school, myself, and just seeing

how many back Watchers are on the ground.

So potentially as we news networks, like before they look for people who

have, uh, done some, some form, of course, like a media safety advisors.

Or, um, no, it's not.

Or, but additionally, the, the med med skill sets are very, very

important, um, qualification have.

And, and so, and so can I be interested to, to, to, to learn because

you know, we do get fan mail about the tactical medic versus paramedic debate.

We, we do get fan mail about that.

Um, so, so, so obviously operating in London, um, there are certain.

Considerations restrictions and, and things like that.

Um, uh, but operating in a hot zone or maybe operating in the DRC, um, or, or

car it's a very different ball game.

So these skill sets are very, very desirable, but, but are

there any limitations, um, given the, the, the legal framework.

Um, no, there's not, I, I kind of know what, um, the question

you're asking and, and, you know, if you're in the, the middle of the DRC,

where, where I've been before and, you know, there's, there's no good

medical infrastructure, uh, around.

You're you're the only, only person that's gonna treat that

casually until you get them back.

So, you know, things about, I know there's a lot of legalities about putting drips

in giving medication, that sort of stuff working, you know, in the likes of the UK,

or certainly parts of Europe and stuff.

But.

You will go into the more remote areas and even certain places, not certain

places, but actually in Ukraine right now, given the threat that's over

there, there are no limitations, really.

I mean, if you're gonna save a life and you do whatever's necessary,

so you save a life, you know,

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and, uh, you know, that's, that's, that's great.

That's great work and, and great if you have that skill set.

Um, but then, but then let me reconcile that, because earlier you said that,

you know, sometimes you have to put your EP hat down or, or maybe you advise

people to, to, to put their EP hat down.

Um, how, how does that work in practice?

Um, I think what, you know, once you go on the grind, it's

I, the reason why, you know, I, I, I advise that to the people come

on the course it's, you know, it's.

A small percentage of your time is gonna be spent, spent actually

doing security work, standing around a camera, that type of thing.

It's, you're there more to help the production of the job.

So if you've got a wrong and, and get a cameraman, a cup of coffee or

a maintenance set done in front of them, because these guys literally

forget how to eat and drink.

Cause they're so busy.

So stressed getting, you know, trying to put a package together.

That's gotta go out for a deadline.

Um, those small things go a long way in building up

relationships and making the team.

Dealing with local drivers and fixers, making sure they're included as in part

of the team, you're just trying to bring balance to the force, so to speak, you

know, um, dealing with financial matters, going by, you know, rations, if you need

them and preparing vehicles going out the next day, um, writing risk assessments.

Massively important, um, right now and, and, and well, any environment, but more

so in, in Ukraine right now, our guys develop, um, every time they move, they've

got a, write a risk assessment and those risk assess go right to the top of the

news channels, to the head of the, you know, international news, uh, before

a move can be, can be cleared to go.

So you actually, when you get on the ground and work with the news team, it's

extremely busy, extremely busy, you know?

Um, and, and that's just part of making it.

And then, especially in Ukraine right now, the amount of hardware that's

being used in Ukraine, you know, the Ukrainians are being supplied weapons

from all over the Western world.

Um, often reporters will look at you and say, well, what's the capability

of that weapon and you need to know it.

So constantly educating yourself on different weapon systems

and capabilities and tactics.

And, and there's a big threat comes from the air as well.

Drones, that type of thing.

Yeah.

On a daily basis, you're a very busy person.

Yeah.

That sounds, sounds, um, quite, quite challenging and quite dynamic.

Um, especially, especially in Ukraine right now.

Um, yeah.

Does it help then if you have a military background, um, is, is, is, is that

the type type of audience we we're gonna really talk to with this podcast?

Or could, could it, could it be learnt from someone that's been a general.

Okay.

I mean, that, there's, that, you know, that's a pretty straightforward

that answer to that question.

If you're gonna work in, I'd like to work in Ukraine without a milit

meat backgrounds, forget about it.

You know, no news teams would, would take on anybody.

It hasn't got a milit meat background for that reason, understand a milit

tactics on the Gros, that type of thing.

But that's it, um, way for guys working in, you know, the champions

league final, the Europe league final.

um, on the streets of London, right?

Covering the, the whole, um, the Queens funeral and that type of thing.

So during the back watch, there's, you know, you have the host down environment

deployments, which, you know, are typically you create, you know, a rack

of Afghanistan, that type of stuff.

Um, but you know, the back watch of capability and, and, and

doing large events like that.

I mean, you don't need to be military for that.

And we teach that again on the courses and how to work in rats and demonstration.

You know, with the amount of demonstrations that you get, you

know, in year, whether it be extension rebellion or, you know, we have Brexit

res demonstrations, that type of thing.

I mean, you don't need to be actually truth to that.

So, Ken, uh, historically, you know, this is an area that

I think it's fair to say has been dominated by former SF.

And I mean, is, is that something you would agree with first of.

Yeah, absolutely.

John, when I first started, it was, um, you know, mainly, um, SF or,

you know, kind of a late units, you know, within, you know, like

SF SG or, or, or Marines or, or Paraship regimen, that type of thing.

However, that's it.

One of the reasons why I wrote the course is that, you know, I was going back to

my clients and they were wanting the gold star option of, you know, an ex parachute

regiment guy or X, you know, sort.

Guy.

Um, and, and the threats got so big and the need for security has got

so, so big also it's that there's just not enough people to go around.

So that's why, you know, I kinda wrote the course, but, and, and when

you look at it, what have me been dealing with over the last 20 years?

Afghanistan, Iraq.

So there's a lot of non SF, uh, guys and girls out there with a hell of a

lot of operational knowledge that can bring lots to the table, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

I can see that.

So would you say that this is a trend that's here to stay?

So, and what I'm thinking about is any listeners.

You know, who might not be working in this area, but might have half an eye on it.

Is, is this a safe area for them to start investing in, you know, getting

the training under their belt, you know, trying to take on some work in

this area, is, is it going to endure?

I

think so.

Um, you know, with the clients that I work for, I, I, I spoke to some often members,

you know, said, you know, in place of, I mean, how do we get a food on the ladder?

And most, most areas that's, that's quite, quite hard to do.

So I spoke to my client said, look, you know, if I bring, write this

course, share this course, the modules that are containing it.

And if they set that course, would you accept that and place off experience?

And they said, yeah.

And about 90% of the people I've got in the grounds now then Ukraine, other

areas never had that experience before.

So I think once, once, I mean, Ukraine's a good.

A good place to get started and get a couple of, you know,

experiences on the CV and stuff.

Um, and after that, I mean, news is news.

Everybody thinks we've all worked on the circuit, so, and

seen contracts come and go.

News is ongoing and it's getting bigger.

The coverage is get is getting bigger.

That's for sure.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, in just thinking about that transition

period, you know, uh, it's, it's not necessarily gonna happen overnight.

So have you got any tips for, you know, what protectors can do to stay

patient and, and also at what point, you know, maybe they should look and.

Maybe I'm actually not suited for this line of work.

Um, you know, how, how do they recognize whether they're the right

person for the job and they just need to be persistent, you know, or if, if

they're just, you know, fundamentally not suited for this type of work.

Yeah, well, you know, the news business, it's not

for the fans heart, certainly.

Um, you know, the, the more hostile frontline stuff, I think if anybody

that's going to, and I, and I'm quite honest with any, any people that I

D deploy on the grounds, you know, you're going into a situation where

you are going to face incidents.

There's no doubt about it, and it's not a natural thing to go

towards the trouble when everybody else is, is leaving the trouble.

Somebody has to be very honest with themselves before they down that

road, is that are they, you know, willing and hard to go to a frontline

situation, um, or into the middle of, of a riot situation with a news team,

you know, it can be quite unnerving.

That's that's for sure.

So I mean that, that's a conversation somebody needs to have with themselves.

Um, and I think you're, you're quite right in what you said there also, John

it's it's, you've gotta keep persist.

I've had, you know, people, um, come to me and, you know, asking for, for a job.

And it's, you know, it's very much at the right time to get on there.

And, um, And some people, I review their CVS and say, well, maybe you wanna, you

know, go and, and do, you know, invest in a better, a better medical qualification.

And it's, it's a daily challenge.

People come, they, you know, they say, well, what about F plus have

done F plus or I've done Aeri course.

And the simple fact is, is that, you know, the client gets what the client wants

in the stipulation with all the big news networks is that the FRA course, uh, FRA

three frack four course is, is what they.

And I've, and I've spoken, you know, the guys and said like, you

know, you need to do a frack course.

They have went away and, and invested in themselves in, in that course.

So, um, yeah, medicals, you know, I've said it before, it's, it's

a huge part of, of whether you get deployed or not, you know?

So from your perspective, Ken, as, as a training provider yourself, what

advice can you give to our listeners?

Who are looking for a course, you know, and, and what, what are the kind

of things that they should be taken into account to assess whether that

training provider is going to adequately prepare them for this type of work?

Um, I mean, obviously the course content going, going by, you

know, reviews off, off that trainer or whatever, but, um, you know,

the share sort of fact off it is John is that there's, there's not.

Many people out there, um, provide a, this type of training.

You know, it's very hard to combat it specifically on, on what you

need to do on the ground you operate with, with the media team.

It's, you know, the, um, the kind of media safety it's always been there

in the backgrounds, and nobody's really been able to break into it.

Cause like you, you know, you said earlier it was predominantly for the

SF kind of community, but the need and the demands for security with,

um, news teams for insurance purposes, for, you know, danger purposes.

It's just got really big over, I mean, certainly over the last, last year.

So, um, yeah, I, they kinda answer your question.

It's, you know, investing in it, training courses of more

mini safety training courses.

It helps quite a lot.

I mean, there's, you know, there are people out there that have kind of

like myself, got a lucky break and, and, and got in with the new thing.

Um, but you know, that's that.

That's just luck really?

Isn't it?

yeah.

So, so, so Ken, I think it'd be, it'd be great for us and, and

especially our listeners to, to, to look at a day in the life of a protector in a

media environment and, and, and the way in which they interact with with journalists.

Cause it, it, you know, it, it has been possible in, in other podcasts to talk

about when to say no, Or yes, but I know that was a tricky, that was a tricky

thing to say to a, to, to an executive.

But as, as John said, and as you said, you know, running towards danger, um,

can you, can you paint a picture of how that plays out in a, in a day in

the life of a, of a media protector?

Yeah.

I mean, that's, um, you know, if you think it's hard trying to say an executive, no.

I mean, you wanna check out journalists , you know, you're going

straight into think of the action.

So, you know, a, a typical day would.

The day before, um, the, the, the safety advisor would write a risk assessment.

So you'd speak to the correspondent, get a flavor of where they're

gonna do what they're, what, what, what they're there're to achieve.

And, you know, we, we, where safety advisors are not interested, what

they're at in the editorial S of life.

We're just interested in getting them where they need the goals and as safe as.

So the risk assessment would be, would be written, um, that would

be sent in the night before, or sometimes, you know, a half an

hour before you, you, you move off.

It just depends on the story that would be refuted, then reviewed.

And then you'd set off on that, on that particular task.

On that particular task, you know, the safety advisor he's check navigating

to towards where they need to get to, uh, checking the wires, so to

speak social media, speaking to other consultants on the grounds and getting

the flavor of what's happening in that area, where they're gonna go to.

So that's, that's usually important and, and back feeding that to

the, to the correspondence and the producer, um, and just, you know,

move towards that area, get to the area, get it set up, assess the situ.

um, check out what the situational awareness is huge part of, of, of,

of that, as well as, uh, speaking to the, the, the local driver, the local

fixer, getting their perspective, um, and you know, basically getting out

there and trying to do the job, speak to the cameraman as the cameraman, want

you to carry some sort of equipment with them, no spare batteries,

tripod, whatever that may be, and then dealing with things like checkpoints,

you know, and it's all very much.

Then you go into like, You know, the military style kind of action

on, you know, that type of thing.

Um, get out there and get the story.

And usually, you know, I've found when the teams are going out on a job, they

kinda like to relax a little bit because once they're finished that shoot and

they've got that, um, the material that they want, as soon as they get in that

vehicle, or they're coming back to the base location, these guys just work at a

pace at a hundred miles an hour because they have to put that package together so

that, you know, these guys are coming on a huge amount of stress and anything, um,

you can do to make their life a little bit easier and a little bit smooth.

Um, really does go a long way, which is why, you know, from the beginning,

when I teach the courses to tell, you know, the guys and the girls just take

that kind of post protection, head off a little bit and understands the function

of what each person does in the team.

The producer has a certain, um, you know, um, function, the cameraman,

obviously in and the correspondent.

And you can help them out in a little way, uh, in your own way,

which, which really goes down well and helps the team achieve areas.

And, and, and in trying to, you know, be, be a fixer, be, be

an enabler, you know, obviously that, that that's got innate business value

and, and they can definitely see, uh, the value in, in, in what you are doing.

But yeah, on the other side, do you ever find that there's a temptation

to stop them being in harm's way or being collateral damage?

Now I'm beating around the Bush a little bit because in January, Of a given

year, there was an incident where some journalists were targeted by actors

who were, you know, public sector.

And that's an issue because obviously that's your client and they're in

harm's way and they're potentially in collateral collateral damage territory.

And is that somewhere where you step in and say right?

Actually,

no.

Yeah, of course.

Um, I mean, I've.

Many times throughout my, my career where you have to step in, but you know,

before you do that, and you do say, no, you've really gotta do your homework and

explain to these guys why you're saying no, you know, putting the, you know, that

it's, you know, it's operation certain desk as you go down a certain road to

get a certain, you know, piece of piece of footage or, or whatever it may be.

Um, and, and in my experience, you know, it comes to a point where

you do explain it and you explain the risks and highlight the risks.

Um, And, and still they want to go, well, you know, it gets to a point, well, we

have to look at your own self-preservation and think, okay, well, you know, if we,

we go to achieve, you know, you try to achieve what you're trying to do this way,

you know, we're certainly gonna, you know, get into the, um, get in the territory

of either being injured or being killed.

So, you know, um, if.

Certainly I've had it in occasions where I've just thought

that's, that's too much for me.

And I'll politely say, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not willing to take that risk.

And you know, you don't wanna become, become the story.

You know, you wanna get the story, not become the story mm-hmm um, and every

time I've laid that out and, and lay down, you know, my, my reasons for, for

that decision, you know, 99% of the time.

You know, they, that the journalists will listen to that.

Ah, I love that answer there, Ken.

I mean, it takes me back to my time working in hostile environments,

particularly thinking about Afghanistan here, running a security team, and you're

working with effectively civilians, you know, who are coming across and working

in a war zone, still trying to do a job.

I, I, I come up against a lot of, uh, friction and pushback in, in that role.

And I also observed how some of my peers were going about this job.

And, and a lot of them, especially those who were, uh, you know,

fresh outta the military, had this idea that you could simply say no.

And the authority of your position.

meant that that was it.

Conversation closed.

That's it done?

I said, no, you're not going out.

And that's it.

End of story.

and I see these people.

Not, uh, having the kind of longevity in the position that maybe they assumed they

would have when they first started work.

And, and I think, you know, that really speaks to that point

of not only, you know, yeah.

You've, you've gotta do your assessments.

You've gotta understand the risk, but you also need to be able

to communicate the reason why.

So you need to do your research and you need to be able to communicate that.

And then.

you have to have your ego in check to be able to get, uh, contrasting

opinion back and be able to handle that.

And, you know, I, I think that's something that, uh, everyone could do well to learn.

As early in their journey as possible.

It's it, that's a fantastic point.

No, absolutely.

John, um, I mean, I can draw it back to 2014.

I was in Gaza with, um, you know, a news network, major news network

had never been in Gaza before.

And the correspondent that I was working with had a huge amount of experience,

like 20 years experience of being in Gaza.

Um, and you.

It, it, you know, you'd mentioned about ego.

Um, that's certainly one thing you can't carry into, into working

with journalists, bringing it, you know, a kinda ego with you.

Cause you're dealing with, um, you're dealing with people who have been.

You know, working in hostile environments for, you know, 30, 40 years.

And in some cases, you know, that I've some real senior

journalists that I've worked for.

And certainly drawn back to my time in Gaza.

You know, I was going, I was, I was asking the correspondent a lot of security

questions about Gaza and actually taking advice off him and learned a hell of a lot

about the people, the ground, you know, the, the area that we were operating in.

Um, you know, if you walk down some sort of Eagle it's.

Yeah, you're, we're done for, you know, um, but you know, they're

just on this conversation, there is, there is a chain of command, so to

speak within the networks as well.

You know, most the networks they have, what we call the desk or, um, in American

terms, they call the bridge in some cases.

And that really is what, what the foreign desk.

um, and the reporting that's for us to understand that's like the

option in the military terms.

So every time the journalists move, usually it's the producer.

They have to feed back to the desk.

Of where they're going and what they're going to do.

Um, and if you come into situation where, you know, they want to go,

but you don't think it's right, you can always refer back to the desk and

explain to the desk or cause it happens.

You know, it's a fact of life, you get a clash of personalities, you get

correspondence that particularly don't want, you know, they, sometimes they

see having media security with them as a bit of a block to what they want to do.

So, you know, that's, you've gotta build a relationship up there cuz

you're going against the tide.

Some in some cases.

Where they just see you there as the, to stop them from what they're doing.

And so, so building up, um, relationships again is, is really important and managing

personalities, but, um, yeah, you know, talking about going back to the desk,

which have done a lot of times and, and explains, you know, I don't think it's

a good reason we go here cause of, you know, ABC, you know, the desk can kinda

handle it and interject and say, well, okay, we don't want you to do that story

today or whatever it may be, you know?

And so with that, in that, in that context, um, and, and you mentioned

before, you know, gotta be prepared, gotta be able to do their research.

Um, of course there'll be all sorts of wonderful intelligence feeds

that you can buy and subscribe to.

And, uh, and, and, uh, you know, uh, protest intelligence

and, and this and that, but.

Is it, is it really just to get started?

Do, would you say to them get an economist subscription or, uh, buy

the odd Ft or, or something like that?

Is, is it as simple as that to get them going with current affairs

or, or is there something more specialized they should be looking at?

I that's a great question.

I mean, we, we, you know, it's.

There's different news out there, which some of them not gonna gonna, gonna

mention, which are worth be watching better than others, you know, staying

up, you know what I do as, as that, you know, I'm not, I don't have to say Glu to

the news all day there certain channels that I'll watch and I'll rise around.

Um, um, And see what's, what's potentially happening in the words.

I mean, Twitter, you can't really get anything better than if

subscriptions did look on Twitter and what's going on in the words.

And if I see, you know, something potentially kind of bubbling somewhere,

then I'll focus in on that area a little bit more, um, and try and find

out what, you know, what's going on, what the threat is, that type of thing.

So if you do get that call, um, to go anywhere.

Half the battles, knowing what's, what's actually going on in, in that country.

You know, just getting yourself sort of started a little bit.

Um, I think, I think, you know, how do you get on this?

The, the biggest opportunity I think in recent times is certainly what's

going on in Ukraine right now.

Um, where's a, a lot of people that have been deployed in Ukraine that

have never worked in the, in the media security industry before.

um, and you know, constantly keeping up the date on, you

know, what's going on with earth.

That's, it's, it's, it's huge.

They, they get your knowledge of, of that place, you know?

And, and on top of the knowledge of that place, I suppose, the

ability to get there, maybe not, not, Ukraine's probably not gonna apply there.

Um, but.

Should, should they take the preemptive step of going, you know what, this

is probably an area of, lots of work.

I'm gonna get myself a visa, um, or a multiry visa or, or something like that.

Or is, or is this all done very much on the hoof sorted out by

your, your, your, your employer, um, the agency, um, or, or, or is it

something that a protector could go?

Do you know what, that, that's an opportunity?

Uh, you just meant you just raised a really good point there.

Um, you know, Getting a visa, for instance, mul visa or whatever, if

you've got that ability to do so.

Um, for, for some countries, Know, if you contact many of the different,

um, companies that hire guys to go out and do media security, you know, if

you phone 'em up, you tell me you've got, you've got a visa in place.

You've got like, let's say you need inoculation to go.

And certain companies now you've got that in place, your, your meds, um, skills

and your certificates are up the date.

I mean, those guys that will just, that will get you job straight away.

You know, they'll, um, rather than wait for somebody to get a visa and I I've done

it in the past myself actually, you know, got myself visa up for certain companies

or had that visa already in the passport and the ability to move quite quickly.

I

take it.

There wasn't many anti-vaxxers, uh, working in media safety, then

no, no, it's, you know, you gotta compromise your morals if you

wanna, if you wanna work really, you know?

Um, and I, you know, when COVID came around, certainly said that to a lot of

guys, it's like, well, you know, whether you're on the vs or not, if you wanna

work, you gotta take that job, you know?

Cause that's.

That was not so much nice.

It's kind of Fe night a little bit, but, um, yeah, you know, that's

certainly that was a big requirement.

You have to be, you know, kind of double jobbed and booster

and all that kind of thing.

And if you weren't, they'd just go to the next person and take the next

person who's available, you know?

Yeah.

And, and to kind of perhaps end this off with how we started, which

is, uh, referencing your article in the latest edition of the circuit magazine.

In that article, you list some great points, uh, 12 points about how to

break into the industry and, you know, be, be successful and stay in it.

And the one that really catches my eye is, uh, the final point that you

made there, uh, have a sense of humor and knowing you as well as I do.

I know that's something that, uh, you wouldn't have struggled with

yourself, but have you got any tips, uh, for anyone else who's who's,

you know, coming into the industry.

Ah, I mean, you know, you're gonna watch, you gotta walk, you walk in

and there you're gonna, you're gonna walk.

If you've never worked in that, in this area of the industry before

you're gonna be, um, listener can be quite daunting for a lot of people.

They go in and work with, uh, you know, a big correspondent who's well known.

You've maybe seen them yourself on TV quite a lot, and now

you're working with them.

You gotta build that rapport.

And ultimately, you know, you've gotta give them advice if they, you know,

if it's needed, um, And, you know, breaking down the barriers, um, the,

the social barriers within the team, um, and just knowing you're gonna be

working in a high tense environment and, and, and don't take things personally,

I've been screamed up by cameraman, by producers, by correspondence

and, and took it on the chin.

But, you know, Start them back later on for it.

you know, love it.

Well, well, absolutely.

You've, you've painted a great picture.

I'm I'm sure there'll be people who have not considered it before and are

now very much considering it, uh, as well as people have, you know, they need

your guidance, they need a course such as yours to, to sort of get in there.

Um, but, uh, but yeah.

How, how, how could people get in touch with you?

Uh, as, uh, as, as the weeks and months go.

Um,

on the website, really, we, uh, we regularly post, um, dates of

courses on, on our website and, you know, they're open to everybody and anybody

and have designed the course in such a way that we cover both aspects of it.

So we'll cover the whole kind of back watch, um, being able to work

in rats as demonstrations and, and, you know, covering the events

that's going on in London now.

And.

So to the other end of planning, like a, you know, a frontline operate daily

operation in, in, in the like Ukraine.

Um, yeah, but we're running a course, I think on the 26th, 27th

this month, um, What we also do.

We also train freelance journalists as well.

And that's a great way for us to keep our kind of currency up of,

um, of, of training, you know, guys and guard that work in media with

media as a media CFD advisor as well.

Fantastic.

Well, um, you know, thank you very much for coming on.

Thank you for running the article.

Um, I, I, I, I love this dynamic and I, and I, and I think

there's, there's more to explore.

There's more to explore.

Isn't.

Yeah, for sure.

It's, it's been so good.

You know, we could have kept on going easily for another hour.

Maybe we'll have to get Ken back.

If he's got time.

He's a busy guy.

Yeah.

Pleasure being here.

Thank you so much for having me and, uh, yeah.

Look forward to the next time.

Well, thanks very much.

And this has been a fantastic look at media protection and journalist safety.

So, uh, from John and myself, thank you very much.

Uh, Ken, this has been another fantastic edition of these

circuit magazine podcasts.

Thank you very much to Ken Perry, founder of cos end consultancy.

Great friend of the magazine, the association.

And, you know what, I think this is a new pivot for the protector, because

as we said at the beginning, this is exactly the opposite direction

you're going towards danger.

You're trying to not ever say no to media and journalists.

And, and I wonder if this is peaked a few people's interests,

John, what, what do you think?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you know, we, this, this is one of those jobs that kind of

falls into that sexy role, isn't it?

Or at.

It isn't the imagination.

I think, uh, Ken might have dispelled a little bit of that

with stories of making cups of tea for camera crew and, and so on.

But, you know, it's great to get a real picture of what it's like to be

on the ground and you know, it, it, it's absolutely essential for anybody

thinking about going into this line of work that you need to understand.

The, uh, you know, the, the kind of bricks and mortar of it, you need to be

aware that you're gonna have to leave your ego at the door and be prepared

to muck in and, and be a part of a team

and also be, be prepared to do a lot of current affairs reading.

Maybe sometimes with no specific goal in mind, maybe it's.

I mean, he, he, he, he, he didn't want to, uh, send us down onto any particular

publication, but I, I think a wide range of reading around the world will current

affairs, uh, given that at any one stage, one of those, uh, stories will develop.

And then that's you getting in there?

So, so, so that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it?

Cuz if I was working for a fortune 500 company, I'd do my research.

I'd understand what they do, but, but, but this is, this is a lot broader.

Um, how, how, how beyond reading the newspaper, do you think we

can sort of solve that John?

Well, I've got an

easy answer.

For that.

And it does feel like you've set me up for this, but you know, the

circuit magazine and, and, uh, through the associations, you know,

we, we provide, uh, a daily brief.

So we are collating news from all over the world.

This is not our interpretation of it.

We're, we're just collecting all of the main headlines.

What's going on and, and a lot of it it's, so it's not news about bodyguards

or what's happening in the world of close protection or anything like that

necessarily, but it is the current affairs what's going on around the world.

The things that might be impacting our principles, our clients,

you know, ourselves and, you know, just so that we've got a

general awareness at all times.

And then, you know, we build upon that with the weekly newsletter and we have a

really in depth feature in that provided by our partners at Strat for which

is a fantastic service in, in that, that, you know, that's another service

that if you want to pay money for.

That's a fantastic one.

And then on top of that, we also then put out the magazine and of course the

magazine, you know, has a whole section dedicated to, uh, global situation report.

So again, you know, it's wherever, whatever your trusted source is, you know,

find that, make sure it's comprehensive, you know, and covers the whole spectrum.

Because as we found out there with Ken, you know, you never

know where you're going to be.

And, and I think Ken said, Know, he has his guys, a 30 minutes, uh,

notice to move, which is incredible.

Especially if you don't know where you're going to be moving to, you know, so you

have to be able to get up to speed very fast and, you know, become an asset

to those guys and goals on the ground.

They're relying on you.

And, and that asset, that facilitator that's,

that's an interesting role.

Cause cause there are a lot of protectors that you.

You know, dabbling concierge services and, uh, you know,

helping, helping out in other ways.

But this seems the all rounder position, but also one of the most challenging one.

You don't know where the threat's coming from?

Who, who are they?

They're not typical.

They're not this.

They're not that they're, they're not public private.

They they're they're everything and nothing.

It's, it's, it's a very dynamic situation which hopefully our listeners will

warm to and, uh, and reach out to Kim.

Cuz of course he, he does run, uh, his, uh, very, you know, respected court and.

And I think that's a good, that's a good entry point, um,

into, into, into that world.

Um, but you mentioned the magazine and you mentioned, uh, all of our other work and,

and so it would be remiss me not to once again, invite people, uh, next week, uh,

on the afternoon of the 27th of September.

They're very welcome to come to our circuit magazine meetup in the keep of

Brook green pub behind Kensington Olympia.

Uh, why are we doing it there?

And then, because that is of course, uh, right next to the

international security expo, uh, where, uh, we are a media partner

aren't we, uh, with the association.

Um, so, so, so absolutely they should come stop by I'm there from 4:00 PM

onwards on the 27th of September.

But what else do we have coming up?

Because, you know, we, we, we've just launched, uh, the magazine,

not, uh, just a few weeks ago.

Um, what, uh, what's next on the horizon.

Yeah.

So

this is a busy time when we're, uh, you know, putting

together the next issue when we're trying to, you know, build.

Uh, a theme and a feel and obviously looking out for good quality articles.

So, you know, if you're interested, if there's something burning on your mind,

if you think there's something we haven't covered recently in the magazine, then

either let us know your thoughts, what you want to hear more of, or indeed

write it yourself and send it into us.

Wonderful and we'll, and we'll help, you know, you could

be first time writer will help, um, or you could be long time,

uh, long term contributor as well.

Um, so, so, so very much looking forward to that, um, date for diary.

Is it too early for me to do an extra date for diary for January

is January too far away or is it fast coming around the corner?

You've gone there now.

all right.

All right.

26th of January, the eighth annual executive security closed

protection technology forum in London, grand corner rooms.

Please add that to your dates for diary.

It does not clash with the world economic forum.

I'm sure of that.

And it is very much, uh, you know, an event, uh, on the calendar to include.

So that's 26th of January.

However that doesn't preclude you coming to see us next week on the 27th of

September at the keeper Brook green green.

So thank you very much to Ken.

CEO and founder of Cosan consultancy for talking about this crucial and

fascinating media safety and security protection topic, uh, from John Moss and

myself, this has been another fantastic edition of the circuit magazine podcast.

You have.

Listening to the circuit magazine podcast, be sure to subscribe and