In this episode of #DIVIC, Suril Desai, a Disrupter at Nishith Desai Associates, shares his expertise on navigating the Indian crypto market's regulatory landscape. With a background in law and a passion for disruptive technologies, Suril provides valuable insights into the challenges and opportunities facing investors and companies in the crypto space. He discusses how Nishith Desai Associates strategically addresses regulatory hurdles, leveraging their foresight capabilities to anticipate and mitigate obstacles. Suril also delves into the unique challenges of regulating cryptocurrencies in India, offering strategic guidance for navigating the evolving regulatory landscape while maximizing growth and innovation opportunities. From potential ETF approvals to the future of Web 3 and the crypto industry, Suril's expertise offers listeners a roadmap for success in the dynamic world of digital assets.

Unchaining the Indian crypto market

Speakers

JP : CMO of AdLunam

Suril Desai: Disrupter at Nishith Desai Associates

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, welcome, welcome to this episode of Diving into Crypto. This is JP from AdLunam Inc. bringing you everything about web3. This is the space, ladies and gentlemen, where we have the movers, the shakers, the candlestick watches, and everybody that's doing something fantastic on that web3 journey. It's an exciting time to be inside this industry at this point. If you are not, already part of it, you should be, and here's some of the reasons why. On today's show, we have our special guest. I'm so stoked that he accepted our invitation to be here today. He's done a fantastic, the things that he's done, and you will see exactly where we're going with this, especially if you wanna understand the Indian landscape when it comes to crypto.

India is a fantastically huge market. A lot of sites on it. But you're gonna hear what's happening in the space, what is an expected outcome, and what are some of the things that India itself can do to navigate these points so that the country as a whole can be another fantastic crypto destination easily rising to one of the top ones. Before we begin, once again, I'd like to remind everyone in the audience, please feel free to use those emojis if you have heard something or come across something that our speaker has shared as a gem or a piece of information that resonates with you. That's part 1. Part 2 is in case we get cut off because, hey, that does happen on x. Right? Jump back onto AdLunam Inc., and you will find a new link that will bring you back into the show. That being said, finally, we have the question and answer sessions that will happen right at the end of the show or keep them for the end of the show so that you can have, them answered.

In case we can't answer them on the show, then, hey. You know what? We will still write back to you and let you know that, this is, this is the answer to it as best we can. Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, give me your emojis on the screen as we welcome advocate, Suril Desai. Suril, hey.

Hey. What's up?

Good to have you on the show. I mean, it was, a little piece of info for everybody who's on the show today. Suril and I met, recently in Mumbai sometime in Jan. It was fantastic to see him on the panel as a speaker, you know, rocking the scene in Mumbai. He had a wealth of information to share, and I hope he does some of that on the show as well today. Right? So, Suril, really stoked to have you, man. Thank you.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Awesome. Alright. So, Suril, I think the one thing that everybody wants to know, given your background, tell us a little about yourself and what got you into the web3 space. I mean, why this one? Why not something else that is, you know, exciting like lion taming or, you know, chainsaws or whatever?

No. So I was in 2, let me go back to the time. Like, I did my undergrad in Silicon Valley at this small university called Menlo College in California. And while I was studying there, it was, like, it was the end of the dotcom bubble, and it was, you know, quite an exciting time there because I saw the whole cycle go ups topsy-turvy. You know? And while I was in university, I came across this website called Setti. Setti is search for extraterrestrial intelligence, which was a program which the University of Berkeley had launched where they were experimenting with decentralized computing power in in its very early form. So, basically, you have to just download the Setti software onto your computers. And when your computer was sitting idle, they would use the computing power to search for extraterrestrial intelligence.

And they would award you points depending on how much of your computing power has been used. Post my graduation, I was researching privatization of space exploration. And at that time, I'd seen, you know, business plans for companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin and all of those. They were just being concepts. And while I was researching that, a colleague of mine, one fine day comes and tells me, hey. you've got Bitcoins. And I was like, no. I haven't.

And so I started, looking at it, and I realized it had a lot of similarities with the concepts that Setti had kind of achieved in its early days. It was all about decentralized computing and, you know, so it got me really interested in the idea of democratization of finance, you know, because up until I read the Bitcoin white paper, you know, I was like, finance is such a undemocratic institution in our society. And how come there isn't anything that can, you know, that you can have, an alternative to? You know? Like, you know, when I want soda or something, I have options to whether to buy a Coke or a Pepsi. But when it comes to finance, I'm restricted to using centralized banking and authorized banks. You know? So Bitcoin got me really excited about that, and that's how my journey started. Yeah. Hello? Can you hear me?

JP? I can't hear you.

Okay. So sorry. I think I was I was on mute. Lost sound for a second, but I did catch the last part. So that's I mean, you know, I'm still blown away by the fact that you just correlated what Setti did with Bitcoin. I don't think I've ever heard anybody make that correlation before and wow. Wow. That is that is absolutely fantastic.

That's, you know so that's one of the things to really, you know, the arc that something like this takes. Right? Being able to correlate from such a, limited source exactly as you pointed out that the finance industry, in itself is very closed, very centralized as we say, but also very limited with options. And now being able to give power to people with this financial system as is putting money in their own hands without the middle guys, is a drastic and radical shift. It's a complete disruptor.

Yes.

Indeed. Okay.

I mean, in fact, I've gone on several platforms and, several of my talks, I always say that, you know, you know, like, we elect our presidents and prime ministers, but why don't we have the right to elect our own central bank governors? You know what I mean? Because or decide on or vote on what the tax rate should be or what the interest rate should be or how much money is gonna be printed. You know, if I had these 3, 4 rights, I believe there would be no need for Bitcoin or no need for crypto, you know, because it would be democratized in a and end of the day, money is a form of freedom of expression. And that's what I truly believe because once you have the money, you are able to do whatever you want. You know? Like, if I mean, Elon Musk can go and tweet about whatever he wants just because he has the power of capital with him. And the power of a capital is restricted in a few hands right now. And, you know, and capital is the most, it should be fluid. You know? It should be like, you know, it should be fluid, and we should be able to have access to it like we have access to water.

Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. It's one of the it's one of the key freedoms that that is able to empower people to be able to make decisions for themselves as opposed to be guided by a decision by somebody else.

Exactly.

Fair. Okay. Alright. But, Suril, so I wanna dial it back to one more thing because this is, of course, something that I'm gonna struggle to keep within just the one hour that we have. Right? But maybe we should do a squeeze. Okay. So, what I really want to know, I wanna know at which point was it, through all of this that has happened and some of the stuff that you've shared. Alright? At which point did the switch flip and you thought, hey, Web3 is the space to be for me?

So my flip of my mindset took place in December of 2013 when I attended the 1st Bitcoin conference in Bangalore, which was organized by a, it was a crypto company back then, and it was The first, crypto company in India, which is CoinMonk, which is now Unocoin. And they had hosted this, day long, 2, 3 day long, seminar on bitcoins. And I went for it. And I was, you know, like, the computer science part of it went totally over my head. But the idea of censorship free money really got me glued. So I would say that December 2013 is when the real shift took place because that's when I met with people in the community. And, yeah.

Okay. Okay. So 2013, it's been a brilliant journey over the last 11 years. I'm, you know, I'm also curious to find out. I mean, at that point, so early in 2013, right, so early at a point like that, there couldn't have been a lot of people that were enthusiastic about, you know, Bitcoin and crypto at that point of time. It must have been so nascent. What was that experience like?

No. So, I mean, I was quite surprised the conferences I mean, considering Bitcoin's had no VAT. Practically, not they had value, but not Right. Exorbitant value. But the conference costed me about 10,000 rupees for about 2 days, which was fairly a large sum for someone you know? And Yeah. Interestingly, I did meet some RBI, representation from RBI was also there. You know? It was quite fascinating that the RBI has been the, RBI is the Reserve Bank of India.

That they had representatives present trying to understand this, Bitcoin business and Bitcoin as a technology. You know? So that was the most fascinating part about that conference. And post the conference, I met the conference organizers, and I in, one of the conference and, organizer, Sunny Ray, was flying back to Mumbai, and we were on the same flight. And I told him that, why doesn't he come to my office and we can have a discussion around it? And so he came over to my office. And by then, we had already done some research on Bitcoins and trip I mean, there was not much talk about crypto back then, but Bitcoins, we researched it. We had looked at the Coinage Act of India. We had looked at the constitution. We had looked at, SEBI regulations and everything.

And we found that there's nothing wrong with Bitcoin per se. And on Christmas Eve in 2013, the Reserve Bank of India came out with its first notification warning people against the use of Bitcoins. And the Wow. The industry at that time was just a bunch of, you know, nerdy kids who were trying out something new and fascinating. And because of that, there was a raid on crypto exchanges back then, and they had nowhere to go to. And since we were already working on a research paper on Bitcoins. And Okay. So they approached us.

And, in January 2014, we held up, you know, we were deciding how do we approach this, you know, because the exchanges were stopped and everything. So we were wondering if because we felt that if he wrote to the government, it would take

Right.

It would take about 6, 7 months before they could come out to decide us, form a committee and all. And in the meanwhile, the crypto exchanges at that point would be stalled. So Right. What we decided to do was we said, let's take the bull by its horn. So we called for a press conference, and we invited all the crypto players of that era. And Right. They made a presentation to the press on what the technology was. Right.

And at the grand finale, we had the founder of the law firm where I work, who happens to be my father, Nishit Desai, we Right. We had briefed him. And in the press conference, he says that, you know, we've done our research. We've looked at all different laws, and he's found that there is nothing illegal about Bitcoins. And that statement was picked up by, you know, all the major news publications of that time, including Economic Times, Financial Express, CNBC, and all of them. And they made a headline that, said that Nishith Desai says that, you know, crypto is not illegal per se. And with that news flashing all around, within a couple of days of that, the crypto exchanges are back up and running. And soon after that, we get a call from the enforcement directorate requesting us to come and make a presentation on Bitcoins to them.

Okay. Wow. And that's not something that happens easy.

Yeah.

Okay. Alright. I mean, this is the epitome of regulation being, you know, shoot first and ask questions later in a way. Right? Right. Without having a complete understanding. And that must have been of course, it must have been quite a nightmare because you're navigating through something that's that, you know, there is and I'm not certain if this is the case. Right? Where does where does India stand, you know, regulation wise when it when it comes to crypto?

So, I mean, after the Supreme Court decision which came out in 2020, it was clear that the Reserve Bank was not permitted to ban cryptocurrencies. You know, they were told that if you read the judgment, they said its banning is too extreme or too, if I get the word, but too extreme, step to take. And the supreme court told the RBI that they should lift the ban on, you know, the exchanges that they have put. And, so the exchanges again came back into action in 2020. You know, that's when the big COVID and everything happened at the same time.

Right.

So, I mean, as far as regulations go, since they could not ban the crypto, what they did is they taxed it out of, you know, insanely. You know, they taxed it insanely, like, 30% capital gains tax and 1% TDS and things like that to make it difficult for ordinary people to get in.

Right. Right. So this is so okay. So TDS is, I understand this tax deducted at source. So does that mean that every transaction has that tax applied to it?

Almost. That's the trading community has pretty much fled the country. Right?

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Of course, indeed. But tell us more about that, Suril. Tell us more about that from your perspective. I mean, you know, you've seen the government regulation crackdown on exchanges, which were the prime nodes or the prime, spaces in which people could interact with crypto.

Right? And they come one day and they say that, hey. You know what? You know, doing any of this activity is not permissible despite the fact that somewhere around in the, you know, regulation, they were able to have the company set up. Right? This is where it starts getting a little weird. So they've allowed the companies to come, then they revoke that decision and say, hey. You know what? What you're doing is not permissible. And then, I also understand that they did some they froze some bank accounts. Was that something, as well?

Wow. Okay. Froze a few bank accounts and, that's why we filed a reposition in May of 2018. And then the Case was heard in I mean, the decision came out in 2020. So we completely had a strategy of, you know, we strategize with the and briefed a senior counsel called mister Asim Sud, who's based out of Delhi. And Right. We briefed him and then he did a really good job in the supreme court.

And, you know, we had taken the stance that this is constitution we challenged it on constitutional grounds and, of course, we won because of that.

Wow. That is fantastic. I mean, you know, to have a decision like that overruled, is brilliant. Hats off to you guys for being able to pull that off.

Thank you.

That's you know, so I can imagine at that point of time. I mean, you have all this happening and then suddenly you receive a letter that says, hey. You know, your bank account is frozen because we as the bank or somebody would have come back and said, you know, we see that you're dealing with crypto, so we're freezing your bank account no matter what percentage of money you have in that. And you also have a lack of clarity on the rules. So how, you know, how does something like that come about? I mean, or is there a basis to it? Is there some, you know, structure that's followed? Walk us through what happens then.

I mean, I think what the Reserve Bank did is they sent the post logs, post the judgment, this they inform the banks that they should, you know, allow the crypto guys' accounts unfrozen. And, but the banks themselves are weary of crypto, so they kept going back to the earlier notification, and, RBI clearly issued a notification to the bank saying that it's okay for banks to operate these accounts, but the banks are reluctant. And now in the tug of war, unfortunately, the users began to suffer. Mhmm. You know? So some it's, and then so they I mean, I can see whether frustration or their apprehension, whatever you call it, comes. It's because, you know, if people start using crypto like the way they use, you know, the exchanges would end up becoming more powerful than the banks. Right? So Indeed. And when some, it's like a big disruption that's happening in front of our eyes.

And Right.

You know, and when the organization, which is getting disrupted, is feels that threat. They try to use all their might to, you know, to undermine the upcoming technology. I mean, I'm reminded of the case when back in the latter part of the eighties, and early nineties, when email was just coming to the foreground and how the postal authorities were vehemently opposed to it’s, you know, saying that, you know, postal services are gonna become redundant, and there are so many people employed, and they will lose their jobs. And so there's a whole bunch of, I don't call it political will, but some kind of noise that was created around emails being a threat to the postal services. And and now today, if you fast forward now, you have an entire ecommerce platform that's built singularly on the postal services. And postal services are recording, you know, record profits because so much of ecommerce is going through their channel. And Indeed. And that moment, you know, I mean and the postal services earlier were completely opposed, you know.

And same thing with the Internet, you know. but you can't stop this, you know. It's a very strong current in favor of technology, you know. And I believe that technology is the greatest social leveler. You know, like, I have a smartphone and so does my, you know, so do millions of other people who are who may not have access to finance, but they have access to data now.

Yes. Yes. I understand from the numbers. So one of the biggest expenses that people have across India, you know, no matter which part of the poverty line they fall, one of the biggest expenses and their brides enjoy is act is having a large screen, large sounding mobile phone.

Right.

Right? So, that is, of course, rampant. And, yes, it also ties in with what you're saying when it comes to when it comes to, people having more access to data than you do banking. Because, hey, cash is king. And now, of course, you know, if they can if they can do that online, then then crypto replaces that. Right? Long live the king. Right. Okay. You know, Suril, you're in this particular space.

It's really seems to be an entire, whirlwind of chaos, if I may call it, because, there's a lack of clarity on one side, and there is a large amount of demand. And I'm talking about the fact that at one point in its heyday, you had, what was it? 10,000,000 plus crypto wallets that were documented. Was it a 100,000,000 crypto wallets, that were documented, you know, out that came out of India? And, you know, today, I'm not really sure that that number stands anymore. This was, of course, about two and a half years ago. But, would that still be the case? Do you think that people are, you know, getting into that, getting into the crypto space now? Or are they just focusing on the data blockchain?

I don't know about the factuality of the numbers because, you know, there are people who have multiple crypto accounts. You know? Like, for example, I must be I have a few on different exchanges, and if they're counting that, I don't know if they are unique accounts or if they are Mhmm. You know, actual, multiple user or user having multiple accounts.

Right.

So it's I mean, I think the interest now that we are back in the bull run, again, the interest has really spurred up. And with the Bitcoin ETFs coming out, you know, I think it's I mean, Bitcoin ETFs are good, but they have a downside that it they restrict the ordinary people from entering into that market. So Mhmm. As good as they are, they are also, you know, it's kind of it's like you have one more, you know, so we have to see that how how Bitcoins can be for 1,000,000,000 of people instead of 1,000,000.

Wow. That is certainly a question of scale, certainly a question of having a very, very different perspective because you're breaking away from the your 1 percenters to, you know, the mass audiences as it should be. Right? To increase, yeah, global adoption and things that that go into it. Sticking to the landscape and the believe that the Indian narrative is going to be something that's that will turn into a powerhouse. Right? And at some point, India's investment appetite has risen from gold to FDs. Gold still is a standard. FDs and then, you know, that moved out of the equation. It went into mutual funds.

And mutual funds evolved because of people's investment appetite into the stock market. Right? The next investment avenue, of course, is crypto. You have now the Bitcoin ETF. You'll be looking at a potential Ethereum ETF coming up. Where do you see two points? Right? The first one is demand for crypto as an asset, or as even yeah. As an asset. And second, will India as a nation try to circumvent regulation and invest into cryptocurrencies through an ETF channel? What do you think?

As far as your first question goes, I'd say that, you know, could you repeat that question once again? Sorry. I kind of lost my chain.

No. Okay. Sorry. Yes. It was a was a long question. I'll try and be brief. Alright? So the first part is, of course, the investment appetite where India's concerned into financial instruments, which has been a huge draw. Regarding

see, I mean, whether the governments like it or not, they will have to have a basket of cryptos along the way because, you know, the ransomware community, they are mostly demanding cryptos, and, these ransomware attacks are gonna happen. There'll be some will be state sponsored. Some will be, you know, individuals just lone wolf attacks and stuff like that. And everyone wants, you know like, I've written an article in Cointelegraph. I was interviewed by Cointelegraph in 2015 where I, stated that there's a cyber war happening for Bitcoins. You know? And, because of the limited supply and, you know, back then, the Ethereum had just come out but it was still very nascent based with Ethereum. I think it was a year old or something. And Okay.

And, you know, currently, we are seeing that war being played out because the countries which are on sanctioned list, for them, crypto becomes an alternative. And the biggest problem that happened is that when they, weaponize the banking system, you know, and they use it for sanctions. And, you know, people's bunnies get stuck. And so now to overcome that, you know, crypto becomes a very seamless tool. You know? And I'm not saying that we should circumvent sanctions or anything. But, you know, if we are put in a position where you have absolutely no access to banking or banking channels or, you know, all your funds are for whatever reason, you know, we, it I mean, I believe in that your money is your money. You know, like, it should be censorship free. It should be allowed free to use it the way you want.

And when your accounts are frozen and when you are left out because of certain lack of documentation or anything, you know, this becomes very powerful tool. You know? So no one has to be in poverty. You know? Like, I worked very closely with professor Muhammad Yunus, and he talks about putting poverty in the museums. You know? And he's been talking about it for years now. And no. I mean, you know, if and today, we have so much censorship on our money, you know, so much control over it. That's not within our reach. It's all controlled by external parties, and crypto becomes a very good medium for you to, you know, have your own, bank .

Or be your own bank.

True. True. True. Okay. So, so needless to say, I mean, there should be a lot of curiosity in India when it comes to, crypto as a media as a store of value or as an ability to be able to make payments, and especially when in situations like this, empowering people. Granted. Okay? At the same time, you have a large point of development that does happen in India. I'm aware that a large, group of the development community also may get paid crypto, as, you know, they work with companies that are across the space.

Right? So that's a given, and that would be one of the ways in which they would seek to on ramp and off ramp. Okay. So demand certainly is there. Now in terms of where, you know, where we go with this, would the Bitcoin ETF or maybe the Ethereum ETF or maybe later even, you know, a crypto bag ETF, you know, take a lot of interest when it comes to a space like India? What do you think?

I mean, right now, it's difficult for Indians to invest in crypto because even I think, even with your limited remittance scheme, they are not permitting you to invest in crypto assets. You know? There is a notification on that. So that prevents and in India, I think there is the price of crypto is relatively higher than, what it is outside. You know? And because of these you know, because of all these capital controls and all, it becomes very difficult for an average Indian to buy crypto. You know? I mean, they're only left with exchanges and, Indian exchanges. And, so it restricts I mean, it's it becomes very, I would say frustrating, you know, to deal in crypto in this country.

And it create I mean, and any kind I mean, we had this experience. One of our crypto clients from abroad wanted it. I won't give you the name of the client, but, they sent us a payment. And because it was a crypto company, the banks didn't allow that money to come into our account, and it was for our legal fees.

Wow.

So it was quite, you know, frustrating. And then we had to write to the bank, and, eventually, they did unfreeze it. But, you know, these kind of nuances are gonna make it difficult for anyone to invest even in Bitcoin or Ethereum or multi bag, multi crypto bags, you know, ETF. Right.

Okay. Okay. So regulation is still not at it is, not at a more favorable point. You know, do you see that changing?

I mean, actually, you know, I was at the World Economic Forum this year, and the governor of Reserve Bank was there, mister Sashikanta Das. And there was a time when he believed that Bitcoin and crypto is just a tulip mania. But when I asked him my question, he said that Bitcoin and crypto is a threat to the central bank. So his opinion of crypto being a tulip mania has changed to that of being a threat. So there is some element of movement that's happening in the regulatory space. And at least they are not no longer calling it a tulip mania, which is better than you know? It's better to be a disruptor to the financial system than being called a tulip mania.

Truly. Truly. Truly. It is. Right? In so many ways, it is a disruptor to the financial system. Yet at the same time, it's one of the most empowering channels by which, you know, the, yeah, people across the world are able to control their money. Right? And, yes, you're absolutely right. Banks were the banking system in itself would be threatened because they acted the middle as a middle person, in between every single transaction that occurs.

Right? And crypto sort of eliminates that. So circling to this, to yeah. So circling to this entire point, investments into India at this point, brother, investment appetite from India into ETFs and so on, it's still, it's still too early. At some point, it may open up, because of the demand that that happens there. But to change the regulation to be able to allow, at least through a more formalized channel where ETFs are concerned. And, of course, this is, I'll put it out there. It's, of course, better for us to be able to have control of our money through investing in crypto directly. We don't really need an ETF per se if you have the opportunity.

You know, the ETF is just another channel, and at this point of time, maybe even a stopgap arrangement. Right? But to be able to harness the power of the wealth that it can bring you, how much do you see regulation having to change to be able to allow that? What do you think should be done, Suril?

See, I believe that, you know, just like, you know, if Bitcoins and cryptocurrency if the nomenclature of Bitcoins is called Bitcoins. Right? Right. The governments wouldn't even know of its existence, you know, because it would be like a loyalty program for using the blockchain. And, you know Sure. So, I mean, the appetite for cryptos is huge right now, and especially since we are, in the bull run, and we are nearing the halving in April. So I feel that, you know, regulators are always, looking after you know, they have their concerns that because there have been so many rug pulls and so many scams that have been pulled on crypto that they look at it apprehensively. You know? And, I feel that reg I mean, there are some regulators who have done a good job, you know, like VARA and UAE or the MiCA regulations which have just come out in Europe. Those are interest and India should look at those regulations and try to I'm not saying copy them, but learn from them and see how well, you know, because most of the things that, are required to regulate crypto are already there.

Like, we have PMLA laws. We have, you know, AML, regulations. All of that is already existing. You know? So now the only question for the regulators is how do you keep the bad actors? You know? How do you weed them out? You know? Because that's what is they're being concerned. You know? So I think, and regulations has always been slow. You know? It's, I mean That's right. It's I mean, you know, we have driverless cars, but we don't have any regulations for driverless cars. We have Yeah.

Artificial intelligence, but there is no artificial intelligence law. And Right. By the time the law comes out, the technology has moved 10 steps further than that. You know? So, like, when before web3, everyone was talking crypto, and suddenly web3 comes. And Correct. Now, you know, crypto becomes a bad word, and web3 becomes the new nomenclature for the vast majority of people. And Right.

You know, you can't have web3 without, cryptos. Right? I mean, it doesn't make sense because Yeah. So I feel that the and, unfortunately, most of the regulators come from, the legal community, fraternity, or the, in, other, Canadian economics who come in. Right? And that's who the regulators are. They follow that. And Bitcoin is more of a libertarian, I don't wanna call it anarchy, but it has and I can't remember in the bad sense, but, it's like a farmer's market, right, compared to a supermarket store.

Yes. Yes. Truly, it is. And that's I like how you say that is that, you know, the ones who are eventually forming policy. Right, they're not really the ones that that understand the tech. I mean, they may get a broad level view of it. It's probably why it's also one of the reasons why the ETFs took 10 years before they were actually approved.

And that's just mainstream. Right? So yeah. So technology definitely is advancing further than regulation can. I think the last piece of the puzzle in this particular case, to be really able to have India develop into, you know, a hub for web3. Right? It's already got blockchain technology developers that are there, across the country. I understand that. But to really harness its financial prowess that it's capable of, because you have all the demographics that point to great economic outcomes that can come from this. You know, you have a young, a young population.

You have a hungry population. You have a population that's beginning to invest and spend more, you know, utilizing a lot more of what the world has to offer. And regulation, of course, does have to keep up with that. But in terms of new technology coming up, it starts with new companies in the space opening up offices in India, being able to provide employment and so on. Do you see that they, at this point of time, still have challenges if they are in the web3 space?

Oh, yeah. I mean, web3 has lot of challenges. Right? And as far as, you know, I mean, because web3 uses a lot of crypto. Right? I mean and NFTs and crypto and all of that. So and the, the finance minister said that any crypto asset script or cryptographic tokens. So Right. You know? And they would be taxed at so it's the lack of regulation is causing has its pros and cons. Right? Because you are able to work in the gray areas of law.

And if you look at companies like Uber, Airbnb, when they were launched, what happened was, like, Uber launched 1st in around New York City. The Right. Cap unions are vehemently opposed to it, and they had a union power. But what we were leveraged was the loyalty of the customers it had garnered. And they use customers as their lobbyists, you know, because the customer like, you'd be won't vote for a representative Yeah. Who is, like, scuba. And because of that kind of you know, so, I mean, the crypto and the web3 communities need to work together and create, I don't call it a lobbying, but it has a lobbying power. You know? Go and approach your, representatives in your own community and explain to them, you know, they because the regulators are answerable to the state representatives.

So even if we get 1 or 2 stalwart, representative political will to it, then Crypto and web3 is a no brainer. You know? It's like, India gained a lot during the Y2K and the dotcom era. And

You know, and the lessons of dotcom need to be revisited and seen at from the light of web3 because it's an extension of the Internet. You know? It's like you know, the horse carriage drivers don't want you to drive a Ferrari. You know?

Truly. Truly. It's an evolution, and evolution is inevitable. Exactly. Alright. Okay. Okay. So, so yeah.

So, Suril, thank you. I think that puts it in perspective. I think that, you know, brings this to a particular point in which we can take away that regulation still has to get more agile, in India. It needs to pivot a bit more quickly to catch up with what's happening in the web3 space, you know, as diplomatically as it can be stated. Yet at the same time, the power of India can be harnessed from users, from, demand from the people to be able to say that, crypto is either an asset class or a system that we wanna have, that we wanna have access to freely, openly, and, you know, without it being, considered something negative.

Right.

Right? Okay. You did mention in Mumbai, there was a quick point. You said that this may be able to pivot the government quickly. Please share with the audience in the room today, and those that are gonna listen after, what do you think can be done to be able to, you know, reach a body to be formed, to be able to, help pivot regulations more favorably?

Yeah. So, I had I mean, I believe that if the trading community comes together, you know, because the trader biggest, they are the most important part of the puzzle, but there is no you know, the exchanges are represented. The web3 companies have some representation, but the trading community needs to come together. You know? And I proposed the idea of creating, alliance of crypto traders, you know,

The idea being that, you know, the crypto traders would be it would be like a SRO, self regulating organization, and, where they would have, you know, certain guidelines as to what they will add her to the principles they'll work on, you know, that they will add her you know, so and if I bought because unless the crypto trading community is represented, it's gonna be very difficult for just companies to keep going. You know? And if companies keep on going, then, you know, it'll become, again, it'll become very, difficult to predict. And difficult. Yeah.

Right. And it'll be difficult for the indie story to really take off where this is concerned. So totally understandable. You know, completely agree with you on that one, Suril. You know, and hats off to you for fighting the good fight for all of us for being at the forefront of being able to make that regulation work.

Right? Yeah. I mean, if, you know, I mean, if they're looking at it with of such a myopic view, you know what's gonna happen. And there's all this part around crypto, and, you know, there is so much, they're only showing the negative stories, but they're not showing the positive stories like how crypto has been a boon for the refugee crisis, you know, like, whether you are a Ukrainian refugee or a Palestinian refugee or a Afghan refugee. For them, crypto becomes such a powerful tool, you know, because all their wealth is, overnight disappears and they have and they have to flee their countries. So if they have their crypto on their ledgers and treasures or whatever, you know, they are able to start their life afresh and without, going through the difficulties. You know?

Truly. Truly. Truly. I mean and, yeah, it is a very difficult situation to imagine that you don't have access, to any of your wealth or, you know, everything that you've built up your entire life or access to finance. There's not enough of a correlative for people to understand that. The closest thing I could think of is you know that moment, and this for everyone. Right? You know that moment when your phone dies, you can't contact anybody. You can't call an Uber, and you certainly can't use it to make a payment.

Right? Imagine that moment being extended for days on end or even months on end, in some cases, years on end. And if you can imagine what that is, that's what it like that's what it I suppose it's like not to have access to any of your wealth or finance.

Right.

Okay. So, Suril, that being said, you're I know that you are, of course, one of the OG's when it comes to the crypto movement, you know, especially in India. you had a car that has a Bitcoin sticker on it.

Yeah. I'd put that up in back in 2015 or 16. I can't remember quite well. And that used to be my car that I used to drive around. And, unfortunately, I sold it, but, it was quite an interesting phenomenon, you know, like because when I wasn't driving it, my chauffeur was driving it for me, and when you come to yep, wherever I was, you know, you'd be stopped at signals by random people saying that

Whose car is whose car is this? Wow. And then he would say that, you know, it's my boss's car. And, that era was something else. You know? It's like it was this and, like, there are so many crypto stories I have that I think we need a different session for that.

Indeed. And we will have that one soon. We should. We should indeed. Okay. But I I wanna pivot back to your love interest with, Bitcoin. I know that there is somewhere that there's a poem that you've written about it. Would you like to share that with us?

Yeah. Sure. Can you hear me?

Alright. So ladies and gentlemen, you're hearing it here first. This is an original composition, a poem by Suril Desai, about Bitcoin. You know, nobody has heard this before. We are privileged to have the opportunity to hear it here. Suril, take it away.

So I've written this in on 8th June 2022. So it's called Bitcoin love. With Bitcoins, it was love at first sight. Its rebellious nature got me attracted. My heart told me to follow it without doubt. The journey began 8 years ago and continues till this day. Still very fresh and volatile, but that only makes me love you more. I remember when you were worthless and no one believed in you, thought you were a Ponzi scheme, called you a tool for criminals.

You were written off and disregarded, yet your virtues amazed me. The freedoms you promised seemed impossible at first, but the white paper convinced me. Today, when you are worth so high, you bring me more than just joy in my life. I will forever be indebted to you. Even if you become worthless again, I'll continue to fight for your rights. Bitcoin, you're more than money. You're a philosophy, a vision, but ultimately, you're a dream come true.

Wow. That was that was fantastic, Suril. Thank you for sharing that with us. I think there's so much that resonates with a lot of how we feel about Bitcoin and crypto, but Bitcoin in particular. Thank you, Suril. Appreciate you sharing that with us.

Thank you.

Alright. Okay. Suril, that does bring us close to the mark of the end of the show. There are a few questions that have already come in from the audience, which I will share with you. We were able to pick up around 3 of them at the moment. There are still a few that are out there. But before we do that, I want to ask you about your vision for the future of web3 and the crypto industry in India over the next 5 years? What do you see? What do you think will happen?

See, I think gamification is gonna enter every box of our life. You know, work from home is going to become the norm. And Right. You know, the Genz or whatever you call them, they are gonna be the biggest users and, you know, that's because they're gonna be multitasking. They'd be working in the office, and they'd be playing a game at the same time and all of that happening in the virtual space. And, you know, the costs of the, Oculus and Vision Pros is has to drop drastically so that mass adoption can take place. I mean, we will get there, you know, because, you know, when the first mobile phones came out, they were exorbitant. You know? And the cost of making a phone call, I remember in 1998 or something like that, was almost 16 rupees a minute for incoming.

And, another it was like and now it's dropped down so drastically. So prices of the gear that you need for experiencing the web3 will come down. I mean, I don't know if I you know, and then, there will be what I feel is there'll be a big, there needs to be interoperability of the web3 spaces, you know, like, all those issues will come to the forefront. And, also, I feel that, you know, it'll be a big boon for the entertainment industry, of course, but also for the medical industry, you know, like, for, for education and all, it's gonna be a big boon. But, again, that'll all be dependent on what kind of regulations we have.

Okay. So fingers crossed. Once again, we are hopeful, you know, starting in a bit of opium to hope that, that the regulation gets more agile, gets more it go more in tune with, what the demand from the industry is fantastic.

I also feel that the regulation needs to be time bound. You know? You can't have a regulation that is infinite in its application. And it has to be revised periodically. You know, you can't just come out with one regulation and keep it going on for infinite time. You know? But because the technology keeps changing so fast, and then you apply old regulations to new technology and sometimes they don't work. So they have to be Right. They should have any regulation should come with an expiry date and some blood notes.

That's a very, very interesting, take, Suril. Regulation should come with an expiry date. I think that's gonna be my next t shirt. No. Truly, indeed. It makes a lot of sense. It's funny, but it does make a lot of sense. It should come with an expiry date because it then forces us to revisit something that may have been, acceptable at a particular point in time, and, you know, ask us to review this on a more periodic basis, which will help us, you know, at least at whatever frequency.

Right? But certainly more frequent than the way it's going now.

Right.

Super. Okay. Suril, that being said, I gotta ask you. What's your personal philosophy, man? What keeps you going?

Well, I mean, I believe, like, imagination and innovation and, you know, like, things can only get, you know, better. You know? And, that being said, that I also, you know, like, I feel that I I'm like, people should have the freedom to think, you know, and freedom of thinking, because we come from an educational system where we are restricted in the way we think. You know, we are, you know, especially if you've studied in India, you know, you are trained in a manner that you don't question anything. You just accept it while in the, I don't call it all of this. But, you know, in the west, you are able to question your, whatever is being taught to you.

Right.

So a questioning mind has a lot of power, and, you know, there is no such thing as a stupid question. And there is no such thing as a, you know, limit to happiness. You know? Like, you know, how far can we stretch our mind will eventually determine how far we go.

Right. Indeed. Okay. So that's a that's a good one. So stay focused on stay focused on imagination question stuff and innovation. That's your driving force. Truly, this is something Suril, and I've met you for even though it was a brief meeting, but it does seem to be the core of your attitude and your philosophy. So thank you for sharing that with us today.

Thank you.

Okay. Few questions very quickly. I know, a few a lot more have come in, but I'm only have time to do about 2 of them. Okay. So I've got one from Snow. Snow asks, are there any notable partnerships or collaborations between Indian entities and international crypto projects that are going to be promising or impactful? Anything on the horizon, Suril?

I'm not too sure. I'm sorry. I don't know the answer for that.

Okay. Alright. So as soon as we find something snow, we'll get back to you and tag you in it. Fantastic. Okay. Alright. So someone wants to know, Music For Life says, hey. Are there any notable crypto coins from India, you know, that that we should we should pay attention to?

I think the most prominent one has been Polygon and Mac Polygon, Matic, and there are some more I think Polygon is probably the only one that's pop I mean, that's what comes to my mind. I don't because I have not been following the, you know, I mean, even though I love crypto so much that I don't dabble in, trading or buying of coins and stuff. Right.

Okay. Alright. So that does answer the question. The last one. This one's in from Gloria, and she asked, if Suril's poem gonna be an NFT? Where can I buy it?

I'll share it with you, and you can do whatever you want with it. You know? I mean, it was something that I wrote a while back. So as long as people get to read it, I'm happy, you know, with that itself.

Alright. Well, Suril, if you have it out on a blog or somewhere, do share it and, we'd be more than happy to share it with our community as well.

Sure. I'll share it with you on WhatsApp and then you can just share it.

Awesome sauce. Thank you, Suril. Suril, once again, thank you for sharing your time with us. To be honest, it's been a surreal experience, having you on the show with you, sharing your insights. Appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Happy to. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining into the show. Please be back next week at the same time on Diving into Crypto. And if you're in on Tuesdays as well, listen in at the same time, 6:30 IST, 5 PM GST, and 1 PM UTC to our sister show, which is the Future of NFTs hosted by our cofounder, Nadja Bester. This is JP from AdLunam Inc. bringing you everything about web3. Have a good one. Cheers.