In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Jim Kanicharil sits down with Mike Danubio, Chief People and Culture Officer at Keches Law Group, to discuss how AI can support compensation strategy, employee communication, and retention without replacing the human judgment behind HR.

Mike shares how his path from the Boston Red Sox to a growing regional law firm shaped the way he approached HR leadership in a new industry. When he joined Keches Law Group, he saw opportunities to improve communication, strengthen culture across locations, address compensation concerns, and build more scalable people infrastructure.

The conversation also covers how Mike and his team used AI to support compensation modeling, pressure-test ideas, and communicate the full employee value proposition more clearly. Rather than letting AI build the strategy, Mike explains how HR can use it to reduce manual work, improve accuracy, and help employees better understand the value of what the organization offers.

Topics Discussed

• Mike’s move from the Boston Red Sox to Keches Law Group
• Building HR infrastructure in a growing legal organization
• Why communication became the foundation for culture, compensation, and retention
• Scaling culture across multiple office locations
• Addressing compensation challenges in a competitive market
• Moving from a black box bonus model to a more transparent compensation approach
• Using AI to support compensation modeling and reduce manual work
• Why HR should own the data, context, and communication behind total compensation
• Connecting EVP, compensation transparency, and employee retention
• Helping employees learn how to use AI before it becomes a bigger skills gap
• Lessons learned from leading change in a new environment

Additional Resources:

• Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
• Future Proof HR Community
• Connect with Mke Danubio on LinkedIn

It's not AI that's necessarily gonna take away the jobs.

2

It's not understanding how to use

it and leverage it to your advantage

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and to its fullest capabilities.

4

That is gonna be the problem

for people as it continues to

5

grow and we see more of it.

6

Jim Kanicharil: the typical thought

about AI in the world of work is that

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as AI becomes more and more prevalent,

people are gonna lose their jobs.

8

In fact, many are predicting that AI

is going to decimate the workforce.

9

That might be one potential avenue

that people need to consider, but

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there's a lot of other things that are

going on with AI that are designed to

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actually help you keep your people and

actually get them to the next level.

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And that's the conversation that we're

gonna have today, where we talk about how

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AI has played a critical role in building

compensation models and also in shaping

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the employee value proposition for a

legal firm in a competitive market, and

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it's given them the ability to better

communicate their value to the employees

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so that those employees stick around.

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So you're not gonna wanna

miss this conversation.

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So who's gonna be joining us

today to talk us through this?

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Today, we're gonna be joined by

Mike DiNubio, the chief people and

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culture officer and longtime HR

leader who's built and modernized

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people functions across sports and

entertainment, legal services, consumer

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brands, and professional services.

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He's currently serving as the chief

people officer at Keches Law Group,

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and Mike partners closely with the

executive leadership to align talent

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strategy, compensation, culture, and

technology in support of sustainable

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growth and high performance.

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He's a recovering CPA and has led

large-scale HR transformations from

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redesigning compensation and governance

models to leveraging data and AI-adjacent

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tools to improve decision-making,

engagement, and efficiency without

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losing the human element along the way.

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He's known for blending analytical

rigor with storytelling and humor.

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Mike believes that HR works best

when it's both strategically

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credible and refreshingly real.

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Mike, welcome to the show.

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Mike Danubio: Thank you very much.

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Thanks for

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Jim Kanicharil: Yeah,

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I think the first thing that we need

to get our listeners caught up on is

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the story behind how you went from

the Red Sox to a regional law firm.

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That's a interesting story and I

think we should open with that.

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'cause I'm sure there's a lot of

baseball fans in our audience.

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And anytime you get the chance to

maybe potentially piss off Yankee

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fans, that's always good too

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Mike Danubio: Yeah, so thanks again.

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And I would say I spent 10

years in professional sports

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and working for the Red Sox.

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A little, kind of one of those

dream come true type roles, right?

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Where it wasn't expecting it and

it happened to be just as much as

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You think about a hundred year old

franchise and walking in there and

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over an HR role again, where I was at

the number two in leadership there.

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Really trying to build everything.

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And there was so much focus on baseball,

so much focus on the baseball team,

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and there was an opportunity in

there to come in and build a whole

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lot of HR infrastructure and over

time and quite to get to the cut,

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to the chase on the, reason why,

you know I, ended up leaving there.

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I spent so much time, so much

build, so much investment.

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It was bittersweet 'cause again, as a fan,

but also as made the investment into work.

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I was, driving three hours round

trip and it was starting to be a

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little bit more challenging for me.

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And then I was looking for opportunities

to be the number one and thinking, where

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can I apply everything I've done and

built here into another opportunity?

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And it ha it turns out that this

was the right place for me to land.

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Jim Kanicharil: As somebody who's

spent, the bulk of my life in

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the Chicagoland area and has had

to deal with hour long commutes.

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I can relate the relate to wanting to

switch for something that that had a

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shorter commute and be the top spot.

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So that's that's definitely relatable.

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You had a couple of stints

before you landed at catches.

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I think one of the things that I'm

curious about is when you go from the

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world of sports entertainment to legal.

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That's a completely different

culture, completely different

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sort of operating rhythm.

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Tell me about what it was like

walking into this totally different

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environment than what you're used to.

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Mike Danubio: Sure it

was I say this often.

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I say that there's are

very good at, lawyering.

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I'm not sure if that's

a verb or not, but when.

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At the, regional law firm I was at

catches, there's, there was just, they

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were so good at what they were doing

and representing their clients and

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serving communities of injured workers.

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But there was a lot of

opportunity to grow.

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I had a hundred year old baseball team,

sports and entertainment team that

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had it was worth billions of dollars.

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And it wasn't that there were

unlimited resources, but there

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were a lot of different resources

a lot of brand recognition.

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And they had gr they had already

gone through a lot of growth.

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catches, it was we're in our 40th

year now and they were going through

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this very small law firm in a very

small town here in Massachusetts to

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now being one of the premier law firm

personal injury firms in New England.

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And so what I would say is

coming into it, it was realizing.

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There was so much opportunity for growth

because the landscape was very much in

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growth mode and they were looking for

a leader who could come in and take

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some of the practices that I had and

experiences from Hasbro, from the Red

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Sox, from larger companies, and try and

apply them in this environment here.

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Jim Kanicharil: So when you, talk about

room for growth or opportunity for

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growth, what, what specifically did

growth look like within the organization?

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Mike Danubio: Yeah it was when I

first came on board some of the

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expectations I had coming on board

were to really grow the organization

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probably by a couple hundred people

over the first three or four years.

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And that was gonna result

in obviously revenue growth,

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people growth culture growth.

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And it didn't exactly turn out that

way in the first four or five months.

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We ended up with we ended up taking

them through a, bit of a downsizing

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and a riff due to some due to some

challenges and headwinds we were facing.

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However we've we've moved past that,

but the growth really looks like from my

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perspective was saying we have so many

good things that are happening here.

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They weren't necessarily

being communicated.

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We had an office in

Bridgewater where I am.

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We have an office in Milton where I go

to, we had an office in Pennsylvania,

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Rhode Island, and I think there was things

happening locally, but we're trying to

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think about what's the global view of how

we're trying to build our culture, right?

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If there's great things happening

in Bridgewater, why can't we

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get those happening in Milton?

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So I think there was

lot of opportunity to.

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Globalize and scale some of the things

that were happening, communicate

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those out on on a on a, broader basis.

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And I also saw an engagement

survey when I first got here.

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They said, Hey, take a look

at this, read through it.

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And I saw that there was some very,

just, I don't say fundamental, but some,

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low, hanging fruit around communication,

around compensation, around some why

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people might be leaving the organization.

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And it was an opportunity to look

at those and say, Hey, we can really

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build on this and make this place,

make this place much better in terms of

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the way that we are putting structure

around our entire people organization.

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Jim Kanicharil: So one of, one of the

things that that caught my interest

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in your answer is that you're talking

about a multi-location organization.

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And one of the things that you're

trying to do is try to consolidate

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or create a uniform culture

vision or uniform environment.

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And the reason why it caught my attention

is that when we just started talking, you

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said, Hey, lawyers are good at lawyering.

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They might not be good at

some of this other stuff.

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I would anticipate that there was

some sort of headwinds when you

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start talking about this people

culture, vision, mission stuff.

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And I have some experience working

in or around and with attorneys

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and I can imagine the way that

their response is delivered.

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So did you experience it and what

was your process to get them to

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shift their perspective to more in

alignment with the vision that you had?

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Mike Danubio: Sure.

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I think of Shawshank Redemption and

not that I was in prison but I think

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about patience and time, right?

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You talk about Andy Dufrene being that

geologist and geology, patience and time.

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can never walk into an organization

and just say, here's the way it's going

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to be, you have to learn the culture.

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You have to understand what

are those barriers to entry?

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What are the things that

have held up progress?

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What are the things that

have created opportunity?

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me 100%.

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It was saying, okay we've

always done it like this.

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Or there was getting people

to think about not just.

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Some of what I would say, some

of the ArcHa, some archaic

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ways of doing things, right?

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It's like we have to measure things

by people being in their seats.

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We have to measure things by people

where they are, what they're doing, not

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thinking about production, not thinking

about other ways of doing things right.

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And knowing that we want the best people.

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We might not, we know we're not gonna

pay the most, tell you that right now.

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Anyone from Catches Law that's listening.

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We have a great comp program,

but we're competing with Boston.

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We're we're competing with

a lot of bigger firms.

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But we have made strides in that.

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say so if we're not going to be the leader

there, where else can we be the leader?

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And so it's thinking about putting

things in place that people care about,

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that make them wanna stay here and be

part of what we're doing because we

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do have a great mission and a great

vision for the clients that we serve.

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so

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Jim Kanicharil: So you hinted at

something you, just mentioned something

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that is a potential problem that you

recognize when you walked in, and that's

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competitiveness from a compensation

perspective, particularly monetary salary.

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What were some of the other problem

areas that you noticed as you're getting

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your feet underneath you as you're

transitioning into the organization?

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Mike Danubio: It felt like

people really wanted to be.

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Have this sense of belonging and

engagement with their, with your peers?

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It was, I started in August of

23, probably early September.

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A couple of paralegals came in and talked

to me and said, we'd really like to do

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some things around Halloween, and whether

that's office decorating or pumpkin

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carving and they started talking about

some, great ideas about ways to engage,

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ways to build comradery in the office.

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And so that really resonated with

me knowing the last thing I wanna

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be doing is, and I think from a high

level strategic part of HR saying,

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okay always being looked at as the

people who just organize the parties

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and the ones who like, do the fun

events because you can be looked at

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as, okay, do we really need this?

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We know we need it, but do we

really need it at this level?

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But to me it was saying, oh

I talked to the employees and

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said, put together a proposal.

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What are some of the things you wanna do?

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In my first.

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Words after that was, think about

the other locations that we have.

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Let's not just think about here.

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What can we do globally?

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So I think that sense of belonging

and culture, because we did have

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a few great signature events.

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Great summer outing, great holiday

party, something we did every year

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for Administrative Professionals Day.

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But what was happening in

between that was helping to

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build a foundation of engagement.

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And again, that sense of belonging.

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'cause I truly believe.

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If people are all moving towards the

same goal and they feel connected to

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that goal, they're going to wanna stay.

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They're gonna wanna support each other.

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They're gonna wanna work together,

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Jim Kanicharil: So you're, doing some

things at the local level to build a

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unified culture bringing people to,

to have more events beyond just the

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standard stuff that you run all the time.

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But you mentioned something earlier about

some of the things that you saw on the

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engagement survey when you walked in that.

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Kind of triggered some flags in your mind.

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So tell me a little bit more about what

you saw in those engagement surveys

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that indicated potential problems

that you needed to work on as well.

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Mike Danubio: Yeah, so some of

it was around communication,

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and I think people felt like.

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We're like, a lot of organizations we're

an email heavy culture, but there's

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a lot of opportunity to have messages

get lost in those emails, right?

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And so some of the things that

we were able to do was what,

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I identified is we have an

opportunity here for communication.

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This also came through as I

mentioned earlier, and we had our

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first, layoff in company history.

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And of course that the impact that has on

morale and other things, we started, I had

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already been thinking about communication,

but then we started to say, how can

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we have a more centralized messaging?

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And it's not a novel concept, but we

started all hands town hall meetings

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to To address some of those issues.

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And I think what we saw too is

people feeling there was this.

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Disconnect the haves and have nots.

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It was like this when I was at

the Red Sox, between full-time

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staff and your event staff.

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Even though we treated them

very well and embraced them.

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An organization you sometimes

get that hierarchy kind of thing.

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And here it can be between

the attorneys and the staff.

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And I feel we do a lot of great

things to bring people together,

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but for me, what I was hearing was

we feel a little disconnected and

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the things that we want to do as

staff members may not be supported.

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I'm not saying they aren't now and that

they weren't then, but they may not

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be supported by the attorneys because

they're viewing the time I'm spending

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with people and connecting and engagement

and some of these activities as I'm

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not working and serving our clients.

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And we know that we have to

find the right balance of that.

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But it was one of the things

that really came out as well.

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Jim Kanicharil: Got it.

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So when I take inventory of what you were

staring down early on in the process,

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there's sort of five things that pop up.

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One, you have a growth.

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Initiative where you want to grow as an

organization from a headcount perspective.

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You've identified a potential

comp issue as another issue.

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You have a loose identity as

an organization, so you need to

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create a more unified identity.

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You have issues or challenges with

feelings of, low integrated belonging

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and teamwork across the team.

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And then you have communication problems.

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So those are communication challenges.

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So those are a handful of things that

you've diagnosed early on in the process.

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What did you tackle first and why did

you pick that as the as the challenge

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that you wanted to take on first?

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Mike Danubio: Yeah, think really one

of the central, one of the things

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that, that connects all those, right?

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So communication, you called out on

its own, but it's it's so essential

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to all those other things, right?

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So when you think about pay,

what, how are we communicating

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the value proposition here, right?

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Not just the dollars and cents of

somebody's base pay and bonus pay.

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There's communication around that

when we think about engagement, right?

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How are we communicating the things

that we're doing, why we're doing them?

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And when you think about the, other

elements of maybe the, disparate.

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Perception of attorneys

versus other staff.

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How do we communicate that?

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How do we bring people

together in the same room?

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How do we send the same messages and

not just send it to the attorneys

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first and then to the staff second?

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So how do you consolidate

those types of things?

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So for me it was about communication,

trying to really think about

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timeliness of communication.

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Probably being over communicative,

be as transparent as possible.

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You can sending more

messages rather than less.

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Thinking about how we're timing up

our messages and we're, still working

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through some of that, I'd say still,

but bringing together in front of the

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entire organization and making our

the, all hands that we started to do.

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And those have a very similar structure.

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And they really are focused on.

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Letting everybody really

understand what our business does.

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So you know what your day-to-day job is,

but you might not have heard as a personal

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injury on the tort side of our business.

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You might not have heard about

a really compelling workers'

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compensation case that we had.

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We wanna present in one of our

all hands, let's have an attorney

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come up and take us through that.

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Tell us a little bit more about

that so you can understand the

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impact that you day-to-day job has.

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And we're not just talking about

that in an attorney roundtable.

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It's for everybody.

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It's recognition too, and

saying, let us make sure that

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we're recognizing employees.

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Across the organization

for things they're doing.

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So part of that was saying we

used to let people pick who they

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were, who was getting recognized.

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Now it's a staff survey.

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Say, Hey, nominate people, right?

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You have a voice in letting us

know who's doing a great job.

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So the communication piece and a lot of

different channels for me was important

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and I think it will continue to be, and

we have other opportunities and more ways

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in the future that we know we're working

on to continue to address that issue.

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Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

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If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

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We are building a network of the

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I will personally be sharing

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308

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

309

community.

310

Now back to the show.

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Jim Kanicharil: So sticking with

the, communication piece, one of the

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things that you mentioned earlier

was how based on location and kind

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of where the firm is situated.

314

You have some competitive balance

issues that you need to sort sort, out.

315

You have two big metropolitan markets

that can pay more than you and as an

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organization, if you're growth focused,

part of that growth focus has to do

317

with retaining your people as well.

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So how did you tackle that particular

challenge, and how does that fit

319

within the whole communication umbrella

that you're working on solving.

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Mike Danubio: Yeah so

some of it is looking at.

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Just the real numbers.

322

And addressing and saying we are

from a compensation perspective, we

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realize there's areas where we're.

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We're lower than we would like to be,

potentially lower than the market's

325

telling us that, we need to be right.

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And addressing what,

addressing that over time.

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You can't just bite off that

all in one year and say, we're

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gonna fix this all at once.

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So we took a two year approach, or

we looked at it and said, we're gonna

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make some adjustments and then we're

gonna make some more adjustments and

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feeling like we're getting better.

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Better and closer to where we,

can be and where we feel like

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we have a more competitive draw.

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Again, given our marketplace,

given some of the people

335

that we're competing against.

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That was on the, I'd say across

a lot of our staff perspective,

337

like paralegals, legal assistants.

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That's where I saw, and that's

a, big bulk of our population.

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And taking a look at that.

340

Another area we did, so in January 25

we launched a brand new compensation

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model for all of our attorneys as well.

342

And it took us from being something

that we use this term kind of black

343

box where you had your base salary and

you were getting bonused based on you.

344

You didn't necessarily know

what you're getting bonused on.

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You knew you were doing a great job, but

your revenues and your fees could have

346

gone up by a certain percentage, but your

bonus may not have translated to that.

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Made it very transparent.

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We put together a great, we call

it a pod model, and we really saw

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people most people, almost everybody

made more than they ever have here.

350

Their earning potential is a lot higher

for, on that perspective, and it allowed

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them also to, to create some different

rewards for their staff as well.

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And so it was really.

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And it wasn't just me.

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It took a lot of it took a lot of

collective thinking in our leadership

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team and conversations with our attorneys

and we've gone through one year of it.

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We've made some changes of it that

we're launching this year, but it was

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taking it head on, realizing we have

an issue that we need to address.

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Not compressing it and not repressing

it and saying, we're going to move

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forward and make these changes.

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So that was that was one piece of it.

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And then the other piece that kind of

goes along with that is communication.

362

We are also talking here about how

to make sure that we're communicating

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that value again, so that people

understand that what they're getting

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here is not just a base and bonus.

365

There's more to it.

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And we're working on communicating

some of those total compensation

367

statements as well for people this year.

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Jim Kanicharil: So when,

you're thinking about building

369

and communicating these new.

370

Compensation models.

371

What all went into the process of building

the model and then what all went into

372

the process of actually communicating

how the model is structured and what

373

that means at the employee level?

374

Mike Danubio: sure.

375

Yeah.

376

I think again this was very much

focused on kind of these, the

377

the attorney pods, and so it was.

378

Strategy Officer, Chief Operating

Officer, our managing partner our, other

379

partners in the organization people

in finance sitting saying what does

380

it cost for us to run our business?

381

Where are the opportunities that

we can present our attorneys make

382

more money to be more profitable?

383

If they're more profitable, the

firm's more profitable, right?

384

And so thinking about

all the different facets.

385

That come into cost containment, all the

facets that come into revenue generation

386

really just it was a slog kind of digging

through putting it into an, into a model.

387

We used Excel, but putting into model,

playing around with it, understanding

388

kind of what the costs were, what we

needed for margins, where we needed for

389

people what realistic fees we're gonna

be by an attorney, because we have some

390

attorneys who are gonna make significantly

more in fees just based on their.

391

The cases, they get their own abilities,

their tenure, their experience.

392

So making it tr what we

felt was fair for everybody.

393

We spent a lot of time trying to

break it, so to speak, and saying

394

where are the flaws in this?

395

We talked about it with other people.

396

We brought in attorneys that we

that we know that have been here

397

for a while and said, Hey, help

us play with this a little bit.

398

What do you think?

399

Where, does this break down?

400

What are the upside?

401

And we took all that feedback and

rolled that into a final model.

402

What we did from a communication

perspective was we called in

403

every attorney one-on-one that

was a, what we call a pod lead.

404

So between myself, chief strategy

officer, chief operating Officer,

405

and then the managing partner, if

they're on TOT or managing partner

406

of workers' comp said, here's your

model, here's what we're looking to do.

407

Line by line, we wanna

share this with you.

408

And so it was time consuming.

409

I dunno if it's necessarily scalable,

but it was scalable for us, given the

410

size we had, and it was really making

sure that they saw it in front of them.

411

And we, made some adjustments to it

as we had some of those one-on-ones.

412

And the other thing that we

also did was sent out a, midyear

413

survey, said, how's it going?

414

What do you guys think?

415

made some changes and adjustments

to the model in 26 based on feedback

416

that we got from that group.

417

Jim Kanicharil: So when you,

look at the, model build I wanna

418

sit with that a little bit.

419

You mentioned a lot of it had

to do with was built in Excel.

420

What other tooling did you

use to build the model?

421

And what were the data sources that went

into that tooling to build the model?

422

Mike Danubio: Yeah it was primarily Excel.

423

It was a lot of grab grabbing

doing a lot of math thing around

424

operating costs, stuff that came

outta QuickBooks, things that we

425

know that where we have expenses that

looking at all of our benefits, right?

426

So that was me digging into what

does it really cost us from a

427

benefits perspective, how do we

get that allocated into a pod?

428

And what we wanted to be fair, we

also wanted to make sure that, and

429

we communicated this to everybody,

we are charging you rent, we

430

are charging you for benefits.

431

We are charging you for some of the IT

infrastructure and things that we do here.

432

But we're not charging you all of it.

433

We want it to be fair.

434

And we were leveraging what was

at, our fingertips and some of the

435

systems that we have, which they're

not as contemporary as they could

436

be, but they work for us right now.

437

And I think it, again, I think each of

us, myself, the COO, the chief strategy

438

officer looked to different peers outside

the organization and talked a little

439

bit about here's what we're doing.

440

Help us think through this.

441

And trying to, again, pressure

test this against kind of the what

442

was happening in our industry.

443

And we got a lot of great feedback

from people saying this is you're

444

progress, this is progressive in

terms of how you guys are doing this.

445

So I'd love to tell you there was this all

sorts of great great tech and, things like

446

that related to this specific project.

447

It was a grind and it was really

just using, a lot of Excel.

448

We also did use we did use some,

tools on just prompts and, AI to help

449

us with some of the formulas, some

of the things that we wanted to do

450

within Excel to make this work too.

451

Jim Kanicharil: So when you're, dealing

with all of these different data

452

sources and you're chucking 'em into

Excel, there's still some processing

453

stuff that needs to be done and

some analysis that needs to be done.

454

Tell me a little bit more about

your prompting strategy or your

455

AI strategy that set sat within

this build out of the model.

456

Mike Danubio: I would say the answer

to that question is really thinking

457

about we know this is a powerful tool.

458

We know that just on its face, whether

chat GPT as the, baseline of a lot of

459

people use a lot of the prompting was just

trying to think about again, helping it,

460

helping us break the model a little bit.

461

Talk about we were the, we weren't

asking to, and I want this to be

462

clear, especially for the catches,

people that are listening, AI

463

did not build our comp strategy.

464

We did not dump a dump a

bunch of questions in and

465

say, help build this for us.

466

We just used it like any, anything

else that we're doing in AI right now.

467

It's, as good as the prompting.

468

It's as good as your knowledge of the

business and your knowledge of what

469

you're trying to use it for, that

are gonna help us build the model.

470

So I think for us it was thinking

about how can we administratively.

471

some of the burden off

of this work, right?

472

So every month it's digging

into okay, what are actuals?

473

How are we gonna communicate bonuses?

474

What changes were made to individual

pods because somebody left or

475

they're allocated differently?

476

Trying to take the manual piece out of

that and using some of that AI prompts

477

to say, how can we get better at this?

478

How can we be more efficient?

479

And I'd say we stumbled through that in

25, and we've made a lot of headway even

480

as we go into 26 in terms of making that.

481

More automated and using using the

technology to to our advantage.

482

Jim Kanicharil: How else have you been

using AI within the organization to drive

483

some of the, broader initiatives that you

have at the at the organizational level.

484

Mike Danubio: Yeah.

485

I'd say outside of kind of my

world we're we, have a, we have a.

486

focused on that right now.

487

And we're using it for, we're

trying to use it for a variety

488

of different things, right?

489

Different platforms, different products.

490

I, always joke about web 2.0

491

and the.com

492

era and how many of these companies

are either there was such a

493

rush to go IPO and go public.

494

And you, see a lot of companies

that failed at the time.

495

I feel like AI is gonna be similar, right?

496

There's gonna be 90% of the products that

are on the market today might not be there

497

next week or not next week, next year.

498

And we need to make.

499

Investments in these tools where

we feel like they're gonna be

500

sustainable and we might take a

swing and miss and see what happens.

501

But I would say across the firm,

we're using it to leverage, again,

502

not to take away jobs, but to

have people gain efficiencies and

503

have people focus on other areas.

504

Let the AI do things like medical

chronologies, let help us with

505

depositions, things like that.

506

For me, in this space,

it was thinking about.

507

How can I use it to

help build other models?

508

Going back to what we talked about

earlier, communication, right?

509

I want to communicate out the value of

not just our compensation, but other

510

things that we do for our people here.

511

And so this we've never put out a, total

compensation statement to people that

512

says, Hey, beyond your base, beyond

your bonus, here's all the other things

513

that you're getting here at catches.

514

Again, not to pump our, not to, pump

our fist or to like pound our chest

515

a little bit, but just to really

be communicative and transparent.

516

So I started using it to AI to help me

build this model and really think about

517

the best way to communicate this out.

518

And as opposed to calling out to

a broker or calling to someone

519

else and say, Hey, do this for us.

520

I wanted to use the technology on our end

to say, Hey, we can do this and we can

521

make it the way that we want it to be.

522

Jim Kanicharil: Why was it important

for you to quote unquote own that

523

piece internally versus farming it

out to an external resource or vendor?

524

Mike Danubio: Yeah.

525

It's, funny because we did, I I

did talk to a couple of people on

526

the outside a, vendor and give us a

couple ideas, give us some thoughts.

527

What it came down to, honestly was

hardest part of all of it is the data.

528

And Making sure that you have the data

right, because invariably somebody's

529

going to say, you know question something,

this might be right, this might be wrong.

530

How did you get to this number?

531

And the complexity of getting the

data right is the hardest part.

532

I feel like we, if we farm this out,

and this happened to us internally, we

533

started talking about it we're almost

there in terms of generating these and.

534

I had spent a lot of time on it

and I saw with my team and we

535

started looking at some of the

information, A few questions came up.

536

I'm like, oh that's interesting.

537

I'm not sure.

538

Let's figure it out.

539

Oh, that's interesting.

540

Let's figure it out.

541

We figured out some of

these little nuances.

542

If we ship this out to a vendor

or provider, they would not

543

be asking those questions.

544

'cause they don't know us enough.

545

They don't know the

nuances, like we know them.

546

So for me it's I'd rather I'd rather

own the data, own the information.

547

own the output, own the visual,

look, own all of it, because I wanna

548

make it as authentic as possible

and make it as accurate as possible.

549

Jim Kanicharil: So staying on

that track when you think about.

550

You know why this was important

for you to handle internally?

551

What's the broader purpose or

gain that you get from doing this

552

yourself that you might not have

gotten if you, outsourced it?

553

Mike Danubio: Yeah I'll

take one step back too.

554

So one of the things that, again, going

back to communication we had talked about,

555

that early on survey that you had that I

talked referenced earlier, that employee

556

engagement survey, Those are, those can be

challenging because you get all this data

557

and then you and all this information, and

it's only as good as the feedback and the

558

outputs from that, how you respond to it.

559

We took a different approach in late fall.

560

We haven't done an engagement survey

since I've been here, but in late, fall we

561

did an ENPS survey and just very simple.

562

Would you recommend someone

to work at Kat's Law?

563

And then you can say yes or no.

564

Our scores came out very well.

565

Higher than I thought they would, not,

because I don't feel like we have a

566

good culture here, but it just was our

first time doing it and I felt there

567

was, there might be an opportunity.

568

There might, be an instance where it

may not be as favorable as it turned out

569

to be, but again, pleasantly surprised.

570

But one of the themes that came out

of that was some still that little

571

bit of compensation conversation.

572

I know we've made some headway and I know

we were planning on making some headway

573

in our year end across some other folks

that still needed to see some adjustments.

574

for me it was saying, okay, we have

an opportunity here to communicate.

575

Again, not just base, not

just bonus, but more value.

576

And people are seeking this.

577

They're saying this might be

an issue that's still here.

578

And I want it to be able to say,

Hey, I can't solve 100% for this,

579

but what we can do is be transparent.

580

We can showcase more information.

581

communicating that out.

582

The broader message of saying, Hey,

there, there is more to working here

583

than just some of those elements

that you might be thinking of.

584

And quite honestly there's been

instances where people will say

585

all of us I think sometimes are

as good as the last bonus we got.

586

You forget that just happened and

you're moving on to the next piece.

587

So having that information, having people

understand it, I think was important

588

for me in in recognizing some of the

things that we're doing here that.

589

Just might go under the radar

that people might forget about.

590

Jim Kanicharil: So when I hear that,

I think one of the things that I take

591

away from what you're describing is

part of the intent of creating this

592

model, part of the intent of leveraging

AI from a communication perspective.

593

Part of the intent in.

594

Painting a fuller picture of what

you get from working here is to

595

better define what the employer value

proposition is, what your EVP is.

596

Mike Danubio: Sure.

597

Jim Kanicharil: so when I hear that,

I guess one of the things that I'm

598

wondering is what are some of the early

signals that you've seen or heard as

599

you've started this rolling initiative?

600

Mike Danubio: Yeah I think there's been

and, I'll say this, we're not gonna be,

601

not everybody, not every employee is gonna

be 100% satisfied with everything, right?

602

But I think some there are some

anecdotal pieces where people are

603

coming back and saying, Hey I was.

604

Grateful for the raise that I got, I was

super grateful for the bonus that I got.

605

I know my bonus this year was

bigger than it was last year.

606

And I think we're gonna do another we're

gonna continue to, pressure test and do

607

the EMPS with folks on a, regular cadence.

608

But I think not just the communication

around the compensation piece, because

609

that's what we're talking about in this

moment, but I think the communication

610

around, bringing the groups together

and some of the things that we've done

611

to build culture engagement, I think

I, we've got a lot of good response

612

of people saying you brought in this

particular financial planning group

613

that, that came in as a resource for me.

614

This was a, free benefit that you've

offered and it's amazing that's

615

going on the total comp statement.

616

It's not gonna have a value.

617

It's not gonna say that cost X amount of

dollars, it's gonna be on there listed

618

as kind of other perks and benefits.

619

'cause I wanna remind people these

are things that we are doing that.

620

Again, employees have come up

and said, oh my gosh, I wish more

621

people would take advantage of this,

because it's been so helpful to me.

622

So somewhat anecdotal, right?

623

I think we'll see more of it come out

less anecdotal as we do more surveys

624

and, start to get more information.

625

But I, do think no matter whether

it's good news or bad news.

626

I want to hear the news, right?

627

And if you put it in front of them,

how they respond to it is their choice.

628

But I think having the information

and being transparent is key.

629

And if somebody comes in and says, Hey

this, statement's great, Mike, you show

630

me all this information, but I still think

I'm being paid not where I need to be.

631

Let's have that conversation, right?

632

Let's figure that out.

633

But also let's look at the broader

picture of kind of everything else that

634

we're doing here in the organization.

635

why we're in business to serve people

who are at the lowest points in their

636

lives who've had a personal injury, and

we're doing, we all have an opportunity

637

to have an impact on those people.

638

Jim Kanicharil: So sticking with the

the broader picture component, when

639

you look at all of the stuff that

you've done particularly with some

640

of the AI stuff that you're doing.

641

How does that fit into the broader growth

strategy of the organization as well as

642

your, bro, your overall retention strategy

that you're working on building as well?

643

Mike Danubio: Yeah, look

it's not, going away, right?

644

And so I think as we talk

to our employees here about.

645

About ai, about the

things we're doing in ai.

646

You can't, pick up a phone,

you can't look at the news.

647

You can't see an article

that isn't talking about it.

648

And again, going back to same

thing, back in back in the.com

649

area, couldn't pick up a, couldn't

pick up get on the, go on the web or

650

hear news about something that wasn't

happening with someone going, trying

651

to go public or whatever it might be.

652

So what we're trying to do is educate

and just say, it's gonna be a part

653

of our strategy going forward.

654

We're gonna use it in a

variety of different ways.

655

Again, we're gonna try and

leverage it as much as possible

656

as we can for efficiencies.

657

For case management, for how we go

about managing, managing the core

658

components of our of our, business.

659

And we want people to learn it and

understand it because we want them to,

660

bring us good ideas on how we can use

it, and we want them to be more efficient

661

and be more productive and create, tools.

662

us identify tools that

will allow them to do that.

663

Because said it in this, we've said

it in this conversation, it's in most

664

of the conversations I have about ai.

665

It's not AI that's necessarily

gonna take away the jobs.

666

It's not understanding how to use

it and leverage it to your advantage

667

and to its fullest capabilities.

668

That is gonna be the problem for people

as they continue as it continues to grow.

669

And we see more of it.

670

Jim Kanicharil: So I want you to think

back to where we where, you started from.

671

You went from one, really unique interest

industry to an industry that's completely

672

different from from what you were used to.

673

And during your time there, you're working

on a number of things from a communication

674

perspective, from a comp perspective,

you're integrating AI into some of the

675

things that you're working on, and it's

all part of a broader retention strategy

676

and growth strategy that you have there.

677

I want you to take a look back from

where you are right now, and think

678

about all the things that you've done

in terms of driving the growth strategy

679

as well as building this overall

comp and retention strategy as well.

680

When you think about.

681

That journey.

682

What are the key things that stand

out as, Hey, this is something that I

683

should have done different because it

ended up creating more friction than

684

it needed to as we're going through it.

685

Mike Danubio: I can

sometimes have a tendency to.

686

I wanna say overcomplicate,

but I get, in the weeds, right?

687

And one of the challenges is

this is coming from someone who

688

this is an, original statement.

689

It's not mine, but someone I, know that

used to say this a lot, don't let the

690

perfect get in the way of the good.

691

And so I think sometimes we can wait

too long to execute and sit there and

692

develop models and think about what we're

gonna do and ruminate and postulate.

693

But we need to execute, right?

694

So I think what I would say is in

some cases don't let the perfect

695

get in the way of the good.

696

Another thing I would say too is

similar it's, similar and almost

697

contradictory, but cut, once,

measure twice as they say, right?

698

So make sure what you're rolling

out has been well thought out.

699

You poke holes in it.

700

Again, with the comp model, we

tried to break it, so to speak.

701

We did realize partway through the year

that there was a little bit of a flaw in

702

the model that we're fixing for this year.

703

And it's okay everybody it wasn't life

or death, but it was something where

704

we said, Hey, we wanna make sure that

705

And the same thing with what we're

doing with the comp statements.

706

There's so much data, so much information.

707

I could roll this out tomorrow.

708

I'd just also make sure that we're,

we've poked enough holes in it so that

709

we have have the right information.

710

'cause the last thing I wanna do is spit

out a hundred twenty five, a hundred

711

thirty of these, or 150 of these and

have a hundred people come into my

712

office and go, this doesn't look right.

713

What's going on here?

714

The other thing too, I think is a

philosophy I have on this is don't

715

create policies or undertake work

that's gonna affect kind of the 1%.

716

Not everybody's gonna

see value in this, right?

717

And some of the things that we do.

718

And don't make your policies,

don't make your projects focus on

719

lower, what I'd say lower value.

720

Think about what's gonna have

the most effect, the most impact.

721

There's probably a couple things

where we'd say, did we need to do

722

we over communicate certain things?

723

Do we need we were doing

town halls every other month.

724

It was too much.

725

We moved 'em to quarterly because we said

there's not enough information to share.

726

That the organization isn't

changing that much, right?

727

And so we don't wanna get up

there and just have a meeting

728

for the sake of a meeting.

729

So those are just a few of the things

that I've learned, and that I would say

730

have been, as I reflect on, on, on the

past two and a half years, some things

731

that I would take with me as we kinda

move forward in, in our growth mode.

732

Jim Kanicharil: Great stuff.

733

If people want to continue the

conversation, and especially if

734

they're in a similar seat as you in

the legal space, what's the best way

735

for them to get in touch with you?

736

Mike Danubio: LinkedIn is great.

737

They can find me out on LinkedIn.

738

I'm usually pretty good about

responding my messages there.

739

Jim Kanicharil: Appreciate you

hanging out with us, Mike, and

740

sharing your story with us.

741

I think there's a few things that

stood out to me that I'm gonna call out

742

that's important for anybody that's in

the middle of a pretty big transition.

743

I think one of the first things that

that you mentioned when you went from.

744

The world of sports entertainment into

the legal space is that you took time

745

to actually absorb the information

that was that was in the environment.

746

You didn't come in with guns

blazing saying, Hey, this is the

747

new way that we're gonna do things.

748

I think that's important from any

sort of leadership transition.

749

Perspective that everybody needs to

pay attention to, should spend time

750

absorbing the environment and listening

and understanding what's going on

751

before rolling out wholesale changes.

752

The other thing that stood out is

that you put an emphasis in honing the

753

communication across the organization, and

I think that part of a change management

754

process is probably the most often.

755

Most common piece of the change

management process that's missed.

756

So whenever you're thinking about

any initiative, you need to make sure

757

that you take time to listen, but

also communicate what the findings

758

are and what the way forward looks

like and what it's gonna mean.

759

To all of us when we come

out on the other end.

760

So those two aspects of what

you encountered when you were

761

in the when you were making that

transition is important to call out.

762

And then the other piece that I think

it's also important to call out is that

763

when you're looking at making these

sorts of changes and you have, you have

764

vast amounts of data sources that you're

trying to consolidate and analyze.

765

That's a great use case for applying

some AI to it so that you can actually

766

pressure test and, try to break the

model and turn through a lot more

767

data than you would normally be

able to process as a single person.

768

Appreciate you sharing those things.

769

That's what stood out to me.

770

For those of you who've been

listening to this conversation,

771

appreciate you hanging out.

772

If you like the conversation, make

sure you leave us a five star review

773

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then tune in next time where we'll

774

have another leader hanging out with

us and sharing with us how they are

775

future proofing HR in their worlds.