Shownotes
The church is not ready for the rapid changes brought on by artificial intelligence, but that's where we come in. In this episode, Dr. Jeffery D. Skinner dives into how AI is reshaping trust, learning, and authority, flipping the script on how people seek guidance—often turning to devices before they even think of asking pastors. It's not about becoming tech whizzes; it’s about fostering discernment and forming genuine relationships in this brave new world. We’ve got to confront the reality that authority is shifting away from titles and degrees, leaning instead on trust and proximity. So, are we gearing up to guide our communities through this evolving landscape, or are we just clinging to the past? Let's figure it out together.
In the transcript I say “the head of Anthropic resigned.” That was a misspeak on my part. Safety researchers are leaving, not the CEO stepping. “senior safety researchers and staff have resigned from major AI labs, citing ethical concerns.”
Artificial intelligence is already reshaping how people learn, trust, and seek guidance. The gospel has not changed. The mission has not changed. But the environment where we disciple people has shifted fast.
In this episode Dr. Jeffery D. Skinner lays out why the church must prepare without panic, form discernment, rebuild trust through presence, and lead with steady, embodied authority in an age of intelligent machines.
Takeaways:
- The church is facing a rapid shift, and we need to prepare without freaking out about it.
- People are asking machines for answers before they look to their pastors, which is a wild shift in trust dynamics.
- Authority in the church is moving from just a title to being about real relationships and proximity to people.
- In this crazy digital age, discernment will be the name of the game, not just having access to information.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Missional Church Planting
- Leadership Development in Dynamic Church Planning International
- Matt Schumer
- Anthropic
- Elon Musk
Mentioned in this episode:
Peace in that Finds You in the Middle of Chaos
Cozyearth.com. Use Code Echo for a 40% Discount Dr. Jeffery D. Skinner shares his experience with Cozy Earth's products, highlighting their impact on his family's comfort since moving to Nashville. He discusses the benefits of their bamboo-based bedding and blankets, emphasizing their softness, temperature regulation, and luxurious feel. The episode also includes a special discount offer for listeners. Keywords Cozy Earth, bamboo bedding, temperature regulation, luxury comfort, Nashville, family warmth, discount offer, Christmas gift, home sanctuary, podcast partnership
Peace in that Finds You in the Middle of Chaos
Cozyearth.com. Use Code Echo for a 40% Discount Dr. Jeffery D. Skinner shares his experience with Cozy Earth's products, highlighting their impact on his family's comfort since moving to Nashville. He discusses the benefits of their bamboo-based bedding and blankets, emphasizing their softness, temperature regulation, and luxurious feel. The episode also includes a special discount offer for listeners. Keywords Cozy Earth, bamboo bedding, temperature regulation, luxury comfort, Nashville, family warmth, discount offer, Christmas gift, home sanctuary, podcast partnership
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcripts
Marcus Aurelius said, what we do in life echoes through eternity.
Speaker A:What is your life echoing through eternity?
Speaker A:Welcome to Echoes Through Eternity with Dr. Jeffrey Skinner.
Speaker A:Our mission is to inspire, engage and encourage leaders from across the globe to plant missional churches and be servant leaders.
Speaker A:So join us and hear the stories of servant leaders reverberating lives as God echoes them through eternity.
Speaker A:Brought to you by Missional Church Planting and Leadership Development in Dynamic Church Church Planning International.
Speaker B:The church is not ready, but we can be welcome in Echoes to Eternity.
Speaker B:I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey D. Skinner.
Speaker B:What is God echoing through your life today?
Speaker B:Today we're beginning a new series that's going to span several podcasts.
Speaker B:I think probably four episodes, maybe more.
Speaker B:We'll see how it evolves over time.
Speaker B:But regardless, I believe it's necessary for this moment.
Speaker B:It's not trendy, it's not reactionary.
Speaker B:It's necessary.
Speaker B:I want to speak plainly today, calmly, pastorally, but also with conviction, because we're living in a time of rapid change and most churches are still responding as if the ground is stable beneath us.
Speaker B:It's not unstable in the sense that the gospel has changed.
Speaker B:The gospel has not changed.
Speaker B:The good news remains the good news and will always be good news.
Speaker B:If the gospel ceases to be good news, it is no longer gospel.
Speaker B:Christ has not changed.
Speaker B:The mission of the church has not changed.
Speaker B:It continues to be to multiply the kingdom and make disciples.
Speaker B:Period.
Speaker B:Now, we can come up with fancier terms and phrases, but the reality is, in basic terms, the mission of the church is uniform, make disciples, multiply the kingdom of God.
Speaker B:But the environment in which we lead and disciple has shifted and is shifting quickly.
Speaker B:I read an article recently, actually, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm recording this podcast on February 11th, and I read this article this morning and it got my attention.
Speaker B:And in fact, it was something I was sensing, but it kind of solidified what I was already thinking.
Speaker B:And I don't mean to say it's confirmation bias, because I listened to a lot of voices on artificial intelligence and discipleship and church leadership.
Speaker B:A lot of voices shape me, and not just within the church planting community.
Speaker B:I listened to voices, and even in the secular community as well, because I think that when we live in a bubble that we.
Speaker B:We begin to lose perspective.
Speaker B:And so this article was written by someone deeply involved in the world of artificial intelligence, Matt Schumer.
Speaker B:And I'll post the article in the.
Speaker B:In the notes for you as well.
Speaker B:And just, just kind of an FYI coming soon the podcast is being a little more beginning to get a lot more popular and as a result I've got to begin to scale and so the podcast will remain free but there's going to be portions, show notes, transcripts, things like that that will begin to be monetized and for only subscribe particular subscribers.
Speaker B:Not going to be a lot, a couple of bucks a month, probably two, nine a month.
Speaker B:Still working on all that.
Speaker B:But just, just a heads up on that.
Speaker B:Again, none of this is designed to make money.
Speaker B:It's designed to pay for the podcast and it's beginning to happen.
Speaker B:But it's not just a podcast.
Speaker B:It's book writing, authoring, just it is all the things that I do in the leadership space cost money and they were beginning to drain my budget significantly.
Speaker B:And so I had to begin to monetize some, some portions of this.
Speaker B:Not to exclude people.
Speaker B:I always want to, I believe in faithful sharing and look any resource I have, feel free to share even if you, if you have to subscribe to get future content, I want that to be freely shared.
Speaker B:I do that again I want to to always be a means of grace to people.
Speaker B:But anyway.
Speaker B:Matt Schumer described the pace of change in that field and the sense among those closest to it that something significant is already underway.
Speaker B:That field being artificial intelligence.
Speaker B:That confirmed what many of us have been sensing quietly for some time.
Speaker B:We are not waiting for future disruptions.
Speaker B:We are living inside the early stages of one.
Speaker B:This article again, I am.
Speaker B:It's a long article.
Speaker B:I invite you to go and read it, but it will blow your mind.
Speaker B:And it will.
Speaker B:It, it will.
Speaker B:I don't want it to scare you because I don't believe in living in fear.
Speaker B:When we're living in fear, we don't make good decisions.
Speaker B:We're in fight or flight mode.
Speaker B:We're using our lizard brain, as some people call it, reptilian brain.
Speaker B:And as that, that just that basic thought.
Speaker B:There's no higher order thinking.
Speaker B:It's just how do I escape or how do I survive?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so but what I do want you to do is pay attention.
Speaker B:And one things he says is that there was a key shift on February 5th and that shift was that artificial intelligence intelligence, Codex 5.3, I think he says was released.
Speaker B:The key for artificial intelligence has always been coding.
Speaker B:They believe that if you could code it well or if it could learn to code, that would be kind of an event horizon turning point, so to speak, a place of no return.
Speaker B:And so February 5th marked that moment for him.
Speaker B:Lots of moving people residing in that field right now.
Speaker B:The head of Anthropic resigned.
Speaker B:Elon Musk, two of his key engineers that have been with him from the beginning, resigned.
Speaker B:It's all over the ethics and the development of this artificial intelligence.
Speaker B:Musk is really pushing them hard to, to continue to improve it.
Speaker B:Of course Musk would.
Speaker B:The thing that scares me about Musk is, is he doesn't operate from a biblical worldview and, but he does operate from a worldview that says we need to win at all cost.
Speaker B:And, and I don't know that he particularly cares for humanity in the way that you and I do.
Speaker B:I'm not, I'm not trying to cut on Elon Musk.
Speaker B:I think he does a lot of good, but I don't know that he does good purposefully or at least he's not doing good in the interest of all of humanity so much as he's doing good in his own self interest or his own interest.
Speaker B:I guess self interest would be a double entendre there.
Speaker B:But the bottom line is that he says, Schumer says that within the next five to 12 months and then beyond that the next one to five years every, that probably 50% of white collar entry level jobs will be replaced by machines.
Speaker B:The church is not fully prepared for what's coming, but we can be.
Speaker B:This conversation is not about becoming technology experts.
Speaker B:It's not about turning pastors into programmers.
Speaker B:It's not about chasing trends, it's about formation.
Speaker B:Because the deeper issue is not whether churches will use artificial intelligence.
Speaker B:It's going to be inevitable.
Speaker B:It's going to be like arguing.
Speaker B:I think a couple of years from now we will look back and if we're still having this conversation as a church, it's going to be like pastors standing in a committee arguing whether or not we should drive a horse and buggy to church or whether or not we should drive a car.
Speaker B:That's how irrelevant and silly that we will sound.
Speaker B:So the what that means is that our conversations as humans 50% of the time will be interfaced with other machines, with machines and not humans.
Speaker B:So the deeper issue is how human beings will be formed in a world where machines increasingly shape attention, learning and trust.
Speaker B:Think about this as the early stages of Facebook and social media where we didn't know what we were getting into.
Speaker B:They branded it as, hey, this will keep you connected to friends.
Speaker B:What they didn't tell you was the algorithm would then begin to choose and feed you information and friends that only agreed with you, which expanded Your bubble and created confirmation bias to the point that you feel like that your perspective is always the right perspective.
Speaker B:Pastor friend of mine Brad Bellamy always said, if you think that God is always on your side, you'd better think again.
Speaker B:Because the question is not, is God on my side?
Speaker B:The question is, are we on God's side?
Speaker B:People are already asking devices questions before they ask pastors.
Speaker B:They are processing life through systems that respond instantly and confidently.
Speaker B:They are forming opinions in environments that's designed to keep them engaged.
Speaker B:Think algorithms here, not necessarily grounded.
Speaker B:We want instant responses.
Speaker B:We want instant pain relief.
Speaker B:And artificial intelligence is going to bring that.
Speaker B:And it will bring it.
Speaker B:Not necessarily from a Christian perspective, not from a biblical perspective.
Speaker B:It's going to bring it.
Speaker B:It will hallucinate.
Speaker B:It will bring it from perspectives that are shaped not by your voice, but by the millions of voices that are media and the bubbles.
Speaker B:And it doesn't have access to only your bubble.
Speaker B:It has access to every bubble.
Speaker B:And the information it gives you will be from there.
Speaker B:They're receiving advice from tools that feel responsive and immediate.
Speaker B:That's what I was just saying, that the shift is not natural.
Speaker B:It will shape how people understand truth.
Speaker B:It will shape how they trust.
Speaker B:It will shape how they respond to authority, and it will shape how they approach faith.
Speaker B:So the question for us is not whether this affect.
Speaker B:Whether or not this will affect the church.
Speaker B:It already is.
Speaker B:You may not recognize it, but it is.
Speaker B:The question is, how will we lead people faithfully in this moment, there's a growing awareness across many fields that we are entering a period of acceleration.
Speaker B:Artificial intelligence is advancing quickly.
Speaker B:Cultural trust is fragile.
Speaker B:Political division is shaping how people see one another and how they process information.
Speaker B:None of this sits outside the church.
Speaker B:It walks into our sanctuaries each week.
Speaker B:It sits in our pews.
Speaker B:It joins our small groups.
Speaker B:It shows up in the questions people ask and the assumptions they carry.
Speaker B:Many leaders will think of artificial intelligence as a tool.
Speaker B:Helpful, but optional, something we will decide to use or not use.
Speaker B:But what we are witnessing is a deeper shift.
Speaker B:We are watching a change in how people learn, how they seek guidance, and how they decide to trust.
Speaker B:Lisa and I, my wife, have talked about this at length.
Speaker B:And that is how artificial intelligence is going to shape education.
Speaker B:Because I think this will dismantle our current educational system.
Speaker B:When you have access to instantaneous tool that can.
Speaker B:And not just a tool, as we've talked, but just embedded that can solve complex equations and do engineering math for you on the spot.
Speaker B:Why do you need an engineering degree?
Speaker B:So the role of teachers is going to be changing like pastors.
Speaker B:And it's going to be able to shape thought and help people discern, which is really going to be a major portion of how we disciple.
Speaker B:In fact, I'm in the process of creating an entire curriculum, three course, three session, three session curriculum for pastors on, on helping discernment, discipleship of discernment.
Speaker B:In other words, helping people learn.
Speaker B:Because artificial intelligence, discernment is going to be the key tool, the key, not even tool, the key component of our spiritual journey that we will need in an age of artificial intelligence that is almost indistinguishable.
Speaker B:And the voices you hear, they will be able to mimic the voice of your pastor, voice of your parents.
Speaker B:And so discernment's going to be key.
Speaker B:And it will be like the voice of the serpent in the garden where it sounds like it's logical sense, but it's not what God wills for us.
Speaker B:The church can afford to panic.
Speaker B:I told you earlier, I don't want us living in fear.
Speaker B:Panic leads to reaction and fear driven decisions.
Speaker B:The church cannot afford denial.
Speaker B:Denial leads to drift and irrelevance.
Speaker B:We need clarity.
Speaker B:We need formation, not information formation again with AI information.
Speaker B:We thought Google gave us the Library of Alexandria at our fingertips.
Speaker B:No, the problem with Google was finding the information.
Speaker B:With AI you can find any information you want.
Speaker B:The key is how will that information be shaped and for us as a church is how will we use that information and help our people discern and shape that information for formational purposes.
Speaker B:For Jesus, for the church's mission, for the Kingdom of God.
Speaker B:We need leadership that is stadium rooted.
Speaker B:Our authority is shifting.
Speaker B:In the past, pastoral authority often flowed from position, training and experience.
Speaker B:Theological degrees were of utmost importance.
Speaker B:Even beyond that, learning social skills and then just simply being the pastor held a position of authority.
Speaker B:Those things still matter, but they are not enough on their own.
Speaker B:Today, authority flows from trust and proximity.
Speaker B:I talk about this in, in my book Reachable seven Keys to Loving, Leading and Mentoring the church of the Next Generation.
Speaker B:Trust and proximity were key.
Speaker B:A key to reaching the church of the next generation, Gen Z and even millennials and Gen X. I mean today because we're all being shaped by the same algorithms.
Speaker B:People trust voices they know.
Speaker B:They trust leaders who are present.
Speaker B:So this is why proximity becomes important, is because the better they know, you leaders will no longer have the privilege, especially pastoral leaders.
Speaker B:And I think this is where a church plant really can thrive is because the pastor is accessible.
Speaker B:And being a pastor of a church plant requires absolute authenticity, absolute transparency.
Speaker B:No hidden corners of our hearts, no hidden gems in our lives.
Speaker B:We have to be fully transparent as leaders.
Speaker B:And to do that, we have to be present.
Speaker B:We have to invite people.
Speaker B:The age of the pastor who sat aloof in the pulpit and interacted from a distance is over.
Speaker B:Artificial intelligence will necessitate us being and sharing spaces with our people.
Speaker B:And that's what I argue in the book I was talking about.
Speaker B:You can find it on Amazon.com you can even listen to the audiobook is In My Voice.
Speaker B:But leaders, I mean, parishioners are going to trust.
Speaker B:People are going to trust leaders who are accountable as well.
Speaker B:I talked about this in the last episode.
Speaker B:If the church relies only on positional authority, it will struggle.
Speaker B:If it builds relational authority grounded in presence and integrity, it will endure.
Speaker B:The leaders who will serve well in the next decade are those who are known, not just seen on a platform, but known in real life, known in conversation, known in community.
Speaker B:Your people would know your voice.
Speaker B:Like God says, my people know my voice.
Speaker B:It's going to be the same way for the pastor will be known in the community, not just within a church, but if we want to.
Speaker B:If we don't want to build our church as a bubble, as an anomaly within the community, but to be invaluable within that community, we.
Speaker B:We've got to be known in that community.
Speaker B:And that might require some pastors to be bivocational again.
Speaker B:Church planters are almost always bivocational.
Speaker B:They're known for accountability.
Speaker B:Authority that is embodied will endure.
Speaker B:Authority that is distant will weaken.
Speaker B:Let me put this in pastoral terms.
Speaker B:People are not primarily asking who has a title.
Speaker B:They are asking who do I trust?
Speaker B:They are asking who knows me?
Speaker B:They are asking who is present in my life.
Speaker B:That means leadership must become more relational, not less, More accountable, not less.
Speaker B:More transparent, not less.
Speaker B:Discernment must be formed.
Speaker B:The next decade will not primarily be a battle over information.
Speaker B:It will be a battle over discernment.
Speaker B:People today encounter more information than any generation before them.
Speaker B:Some of it is accurate.
Speaker B:Some of it is misleading.
Speaker B:Much of it is persuasive.
Speaker B:As artificial intelligence becomes more capable, the line between what is real and what is manipulated will become harder to see.
Speaker B:If the people know your voice, they will not be deceived.
Speaker B:The church must teach discernment, not suspicion, not cynicism.
Speaker B:Discernment.
Speaker B:I'll confess, I probably created more cynicism and suspicion among our children when I was trying to teach discernment.
Speaker B:And that's a failure on my part of the parent.
Speaker B:And again, I'm just telling you that this is a reality that I have lived.
Speaker B:I'm trying and listening to a lot of voices out there to learn how to form discernment in people and not just create suspicion or even cynicism, which is rampant with our culture today.
Speaker B:And that's a side effect of not being able to trust what you see.
Speaker B:Discernment is wisdom shaped by scripture, prayer and community.
Speaker B:It is the ability to slow down, to test what we hear, again biblical, and to respond with truth and love.
Speaker B:Churches must teach people to verify before they share, to pray before they react, to test everything in light of Christ.
Speaker B:If we do not form discernment, something else will form our people.
Speaker B:This is not abstract, this is daily life.
Speaker B:Everyday people scroll through information, headlines, videos and opinions.
Speaker B:They absorb messages about identity, truth, and even belonging.
Speaker B:If the church is not intentionally forming discernment, people will be formed by whatever reaches them most consistently.
Speaker B:That's why presence matters.
Speaker B:Technology connects people quickly, but often leaves them isolated.
Speaker B:Many people live in constant digital interaction with limited face to face relationships.
Speaker B:The church has an opportunity to become one of the few places where people are known by name and story.
Speaker B:This requires intention, shared bills, real conversation, prayer that happens in the same room, testimony that allows people to be seen and heard.
Speaker B:When experience, when people experience real presence, trust grows.
Speaker B:When trust grows, discipleship deepens.
Speaker B:We are not building audiences, we are forming communities.
Speaker B:Holiness must be heard as healing.
Speaker B:Many people today hear moral language as condemnation.
Speaker B:If holiness sounds like control, it will be resisted.
Speaker B:If holiness sounds like restoration, it will be received.
Speaker B:I had this conversation with a pastor friend of mine this morning.
Speaker B:Judgment is seen as as punitive.
Speaker B:But God's judgment is not punitive.
Speaker B:God's judgment is salvific.
Speaker B:It is always aimed at repentance.
Speaker B:And repentance is aimed at giving life.
Speaker B:And I don't mean initial life, I mean more life.
Speaker B:Abundant life.
Speaker B:That's what we mean by abundant.
Speaker B:Life is a life that is thriving despite the realities of which we exist.
Speaker B:Repentance is invitation, is a call to life.
Speaker B:God's judgment sets things right, it restores, it heals.
Speaker B:Churches that communicate holiness as healing help people move towards transformation.
Speaker B:Leaders must speak with truth clearly and with mercy.
Speaker B:They must model repentance themselves.
Speaker B:When correction flows from love, it leads to growth rather than hiding something.
Speaker B:I've learned about myself, I continue to learn things about myself all the time.
Speaker B:I'm almost 60 years old and I have never received correction well.
Speaker B:And I'm trying to learn to do that.
Speaker B:And not take everything personal.
Speaker B:When somebody corrects me to learn that they're not correcting me.
Speaker B:And part of it just has to do with some wounds I have.
Speaker B:I'm learning to work through those.
Speaker B:But we have to learn that correction flows from love.
Speaker B:That leads to growth rather than hiding.
Speaker B:Leadership must be resilient.
Speaker B:The coming years will test leaders.
Speaker B:Cultural tension, rapid change and constant information create fatigue.
Speaker B:Isolation will weaken, meaning leaders more than the opposition will.
Speaker B:No leader should stand alone.
Speaker B:Shared leadership and honest relationships are essential.
Speaker B:Pastors need people who can speak truth into their lives.
Speaker B:They need rhythms of rest.
Speaker B:They need structures that sustain calling.
Speaker B:We need to prepare and not panic.
Speaker B:Preparing the church for the next decade does not mean becoming more technologically impressive.
Speaker B:It means becoming more deeply formed.
Speaker B:It means cultivating communities marked by trust, discernment, presence, and holy love.
Speaker B:The church that will remain steady in a changing world will not necessarily be the loudest.
Speaker B:It will be the church that forms people who know how to live in the truth, love their neighbors, and remain rooted in Christ.
Speaker B:We are not competing with machines.
Speaker B:We are forming disciples.
Speaker B:And let me just, let me leave you with this as well.
Speaker B:This is not an invitation for the church to draw inward and completely abandon the own line of space.
Speaker B:I don't believe in seeding ground the enemy in any way.
Speaker B:So what this becomes is a duel of invention.
Speaker B:Invitation is an invitation for us to be present in our communities and to have more and more face to face conversations.
Speaker B:But in order to do that, we must go out into those digital spaces and invite people into that face to face we have to get.
Speaker B:And they'll be hungry for that because their conversations, it will seem awkward for many in the beginning because they're so used to interacting with a machine.
Speaker B:But the church will be holy.
Speaker B:We will be set apart because we're inviting people that face to face conversation and not just an algorithmic discussion, right?
Speaker B:And so let me leave you with a question.
Speaker B:Are you preparing people for the world that is coming or the world that is fading?
Speaker B:In the next episode, we'll talk about authority after the algorithm and what it means to lead when trust is shipping shifting, not shipping.
Speaker B:It may be shipping, it's shipping responsibility, shifting responsibility.
Speaker B:But until then, pay attention, stay present, lead faithfully.
Speaker B:And finally, I'll leave you with the same question I always leave you with after every episode.
Speaker B:And that is what is God echoing through your life today?
Speaker B:If you enjoyed this, please like and subscribe.
