Ever feel like holiness is some lofty goal that most of us as Catholic women in the busyness of daily life will just never attain? What if it was possible for us to realise that holiness is much closer than we think? What if the challenges and trials of daily life were actually the exact way that God is leading us toward true transformation? Claire Dwyer has an incredible message for all Catholic women. Regardless of your season of life Claire Dwyer can help you learn that God is more present than you ever thought was possible. Listen in as Claire explains how the moments when we feel most stretched and at the edge of our capacity are the exact moments where God can really break through.

Hello, and welcome back to the genius podcast.

My name is Karen Doyle, your host and founder of the genius project and

initiative for Catholic women designed to support and resource them towards

growth across all areas of their life.

Personal professional and spiritual.

We seek to do this through.

Podcasts, the online courses and resources that are available and the genius

project master class for Catholic women.

Now you've heard me go on about this over the last few episodes, but

we are kicking off a couple of new groups in coming weeks, and I'd really

love to invite you to be a part of.

The Catholic women's masterclass, deep dives into four key rhythms of renewal.

These rhythms explore how we can live lives of wholeness and balance in

Christ and during times of lockdown and challenging times such as what

we are living through at the moment.

This is the perfect time for Catholic women to dive into this masterclass.

Now, this is a beautiful experience of building community.

So it's another upside of being in lockdown is that you

can join with a community of like-minded Catholic women, too.

Through this masterclass.

So basically you will get access to the online learning portal where

each week you receive video modules, teaching you about how to deep

dive into these rhythms of renewal.

Then once a fortnight, everybody in the masterclass comes on to a

strategy group coaching call, where we deep dive into the content.

Now it's not enough to just learn about all of these principles.

I want you to actually experience real transformation and breakthrough in

your life so that it's not this far off distant idea of somewhere that

you actually want to be, but that you can actually start to walk into these

changes right here, right now, even.

Of lockdown and the difficulties that we are facing.

So one of the key elements of this masterclass is the practical application

skills and worksheets that you will work through over every module.

So that is taking what you've learned and then putting it into.

In your life.

So we're coming to the end of our first masterclass group

and the feedback has been truly beautiful, truly transformational.

And we are just about to kick off with three new groups.

So if you would like to join one of these groups, I would

love for you to get in touch.

You can send me an email, karen@geniusproject.co, or you can go

on the masterclass page of the website, which is www dot genius project.

Dot co one of the modules or the master class, really deep dives into how we

can be temples of the holy spirit, how as women, we can carry the Trinity

within us in our everyday life and how we can encounter Christ in the mundane

and the difficulties that we face.

One of the modules or the master class really takes a deep dive into restoration.

And how as women.

We can be restored, not only physically, but spiritually,

emotionally, and mentally.

And one of the dimensions of how we can experience this restoration

really involves how we as Catholic women can develop and cultivate an

interior life of prayer and interior, life of stillness and peace in Christ.

Now, one of the key elements to these is understanding that we are a temple

of the holy spirit and that God's spirit actually dwells within us.

Becoming a Saint is not some far off distant idea.

It's not just about being some person stuck in a stained

glass window, no being a Saint.

And each one of us is called to sainthood right here, right now in

the day in day out of every day, living, we are called to encounter.

Right where we are planted.

And that includes all of the challenges, the difficulties,

the mundane grind of family life or whatever it is we are doing.

We are called to encounter Christ where we're planted.

And so to help us deep dive into this and to take it one step further, I

am bringing you a beautiful podcast episode today with Claire Dwyer.

Now Claire Dwyer published her first book called this present paradise.

The spiritual journey with St.

Elizabeth of the Trinity.

I thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Claire both before, during, and after the

podcast, she really is a kindred spirit.

We share so many passions and interests, and so I am so

excited to introduce her to you.

Now, many of our women in our sisterhood national Catholic women's move.

Worked through Clare's book over lent as their book study.

If you haven't read it, you can get a copy on Amazon.

And I truly recommend it.

It is definitely among my top five books for Catholic women.

What I love about Saint Elizabeth of the Trinity and Claire's

unique unpacking of her life.

And her message is the way in which Claire explains to us how God has

created the human soul to be a special channel of his grace on earth.

And to him.

Serve as a unique image of his love, what Saint Elizabeth of the Trinity DD she

prophetically claimed this is, was before the second Vatican council called for

his sanctification, but she prophetically claimed that holiness was not exclusively

the domain of priests and nuns, but that this call to holiness is for every

body and Saint Elizabeth of the Trinity is fast becoming one of my favorites.

Because what she does is she really helps the busiest, the weariness, and

the most distracted did all of us to create this inner chamber and interior

cloister in our souls where we can withdraw and rest in God's peace and love.

And then once we've done that, then go out and take that as a

gift to those that we do life with.

So sit back, relax and enjoy this interview with Claire Dwight.

Welcome Claire to the genius podcast.

It's such a joy to have you joining us today all the way from Arizona in the USA.

Karen,

thank you so much for having me.

I'm really looking

forward to that.

Uh, well, look, it's a such a blessing.

I told a few of the women that I was going to be chatting to you today,

and they put down some questions to ask you because they've read

your book, this present paradise.

And it was such a blessing for them.

Our sisterhood community here in Australia.

Did your book over lint this year and.

Uh, the sisterhood national Catholic women's movement has connect

groups that run fortnightly.

And so we all came together, um, zooms and in homes where we could meet.

And we worked through the study and it was just such a gift.

It was so refreshing.

So thank you.

Well, your book.

Thank you for saying so that it's just, it's just one of those things I have to

pinch myself and like really women in Australia, it just seems so exotic and

amazing and beyond what I ever could have thought, but God really multiplies

our efforts doesn't mean absolutely does things that we can never expect.

As I was writing the book we were talking before we started

recording about the fact that.

You know, some of us are still experiencing this lockdown

and the whole COVID phenomena.

And I was writing the book.

As COVID was hitting the world and Riley, the world is we're

all coming home from school.

My deadline, my deadline, um, had just been moved.

We pushed it out cause I couldn't get it done.

And then all my kids came home and I thought, oh my God.

Uh, Lord, you must have a plan because I don't see how

this is even going to happen.

Um, but it did.

And so it's just kind of amazing to hear.

Um, and people, praise

God.

Yeah, it is.

It's, it's one of the most beautiful books.

And I think so for the listeners who haven't read it,

they have to read this book.

I put it on my top five list of books to read because it, what it does is it.

Sometimes we can think, you know, saying to it and being holy

and striving for sanctification is kind of this far off ideal.

But what you do so beautifully in that book is bring it back to the everyday.

So women who are at home with young children or women in the workplace,

and just to how we can bring a little heaven to earth right here right now.

That heaven's not some lofty idea up in the clouds when we die.

That, and that's very much the core premise around your book.

Isn't it is that the holy spirit dwells in us being created in the image of God.

So we carry the spirit within us right here right now.

Yes, it is a, it's a theme of the book and it's because

that was really a theme of St.

Elizabeth of the Trinity's life.

And honestly, as I dove into her writings, I realized it was just this something

God had given her to give to the church.

Um, just to give a little background, uh, St.

Elizabeth of the Trinity was a French Carmelite nun who was

born in 1880 and died in 1906.

So if you do the math, you realize that she died when she was 26 years old.

So very young woman who had been gifted with some extraordinary

wisdom in her very short life.

And, um, one of the things, so I'm a wife and a mom.

I have six children.

Spent the majority of my children's growing up years as a stay at home mom.

Yeah.

And, um, I.

Had decided after my youngest was born, I went back to take some classes at a

graduate program, which I just finally finished five and a half years later.

Yes.

You know what, one step at a time.

Right.

But I had taken this class called the holy spirit and the divine indwelling.

And one of the required readings for the class was a retreat

written by this Carmelite nun blessing at the time, bless it.

Elizabeth of the Trinity, who I had never heard of.

And I was reading this retreat that she wrote for class while I was pushing my.

In the swings on the backyard, in the backyard, you know, we,

moms we're always multitasking.

We never do have set time.

So it was reading my homework, pushing my kids on the swing.

And I'm looking at this beautiful retreat, which was a series of reflections.

And I realized, okay, this is this Carmelite nun in the

middle of a cloistered content.

Writing to her mother at the time had, uh, who had two young children at home.

And I thought, oh, wow, this is amazing and beautiful because it's somebody from

the heart of the convent, distilling the spirituality for a woman at home.

And she's speaking right to me.

She was writing as if it was for me.

And so.

Then I just read everything I could about her and decided to try to break it open a

little bit more for the women that in my life, um, who also had never heard of her

and in the, uh, between deciding to write the book and actually getting it done,

uh, shortly after I encountered her, she was canonized in 2016 by Pope Francis.

So it just seemed like an anointed time.

Um, and I believe that.

The reason that the church waited, you know, almost a hundred years,

over a hundred years for her.

Um, canonization is because she is a Saint for this time.

She is, she's a prophetic voice, not just for women, but I think for everybody

in the church for a few reasons, and I'm sure we'll get into that now, but

for what your, what, what you, um, what you were saying that she's calling us

out of the chaos of the world and out of the chaos of our lives to rediscover

Christ and the holy Trinity with it.

Yeah, waiting for us in the silence within, and she's drawing us to a depth

of prayer that all of us are beginning to feel the stirring in our soul.

That there's more, that the Lord is not done with us.

And, um, and I think it's the result of years of catechesis and evangelization

that the church has been faithful and the holy spirit has been fruitful.

And I really believe it's a new age for the lady.

Absolutely.

I just think the holy spirit is on the brink of something big.

And I think she's a patron Saint for our times.

Absolutely without a doubt.

And, and like you, I had never heard of her myself until I read your book, but

she's someone who you just grab a hold of.

Cause she gets you.

She understands the realities of our day-to-day lives, right?

With all the challenges that we face as women in the workplace at home,

trying to do the juggle, she gets it.

And I think you've done a really beautiful job.

Connecting her to us in the every day is there's so many

different themes and highlights.

My journal is just full of quotes from your book.

Oh, well, mellow.

Well really was one of the things that struck me now, one of the reasons that

St Elizabeth has this gift of speaking directly into the life of the lady

and she corresponded, I forget exactly the numbers that's in the book, but.

Uh, when she entered the convent, she was allowed to write pretty

prolifically because it wasn't long before she became sick, she was dying.

And so they allowed her this freedom to correspond quite a bit

more than, than Carmelite normally would have been allowed to.

So we have, that's why we have so many letters of hers.

And, and her writings, but, um, she has a gift for writing to the 40, I

believe lady that she corresponded with contrasted to like maybe

eight priests and a few sisters.

But, um, because she spent several years in the world before she entered.

That's one of the main themes of the book is this idea of waiting?

Yes.

He knew she was called, she had a desire.

Um, so such a strong desire to become a Carmelite.

She knew as a very young girl that this was her vocation and her mother wasn't

as excited as she was, and really real to her in and said, no, not only can you not

enter, you cannot speak to the Carmelites don't I don't want to talk about it.

I don't want to think about it.

My mother was a widow who had lost a lot in her life already and only

had two daughters and was not, um, Willing at the time to allow one

of them to really kind of die to the world and enter the Carmelites.

So Elizabeth ha was obedient to her mother and submissive to the will of God.

Not without a struggle, certainly, um, which she admits herself, but in

that waiting, she had to surrender that life that she desired for

the life that God had for her.

And she learned that this contemplative life that she longed for.

She would have to figure out how to live it.

And she did.

And so she could say with authority when she became a Carmelite, this as possible,

I know it's possible because I lived it.

And it's what the Lord wants for every single one of you.

And remember, we're talking about the turn of the century, which is decades

before Vatican too would say no, no, this, there is one way to holiness.

The contemplative life is for every person, not just for priests and

nuns, which I think now we're a little bit more familiar with that

idea that doesn't seem foreign to us.

We would agree with it.

We've heard it proclaimed and preached.

But turn of the century, France, that would not be the case.

That would not be something you would have heard preached from the past.

So it was quite

radical.

It really was prophetic.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes.

So tell me, Claire, you've got your own family.

And so you were saying your kids were little when you first came

across her writings, is that right?

They were littler.

Yes.

Our oldest right now is 23 was just married.

Yeah, our youngest is nine.

So this was, I suppose, our youngest, Justin was probably about three,

uh, three or four years old when I first read Elizabeth of the Trinity.

So you were right in the throngs of those, the sleepless nights and the juggle of

life with kids and working and ministry.

And so it really spoke to you in that season.

It really did.

I, um, had just, like I said, had gone back to school online.

Um, I was working part-time and I was, uh, working at my parish leading a

women's group, um, you know, right in the middle of raising kids and yeah.

You know, I th I feel like one of the most difficult times of motherhood is

when you have the older kids who need you in a very specific way, and you

have little children who also need you in a very specific way, often in

the very early hours in the morning.

And then the older kids seemed to not to know gradual.

So you were literally stretched to your and you feel like

you just have nothing left.

So often and you just, um, feel continuously emptied.

Yes.

I would probably put

that season.

Absolutely.

And I think, you know, for myself for a lot of friends and women that I know

they're in similar seasons, whether it's because their kids are of the

age as they are, whether it's because of lockdown, but people are really

stretched at the moment, particularly.

So I'm interested, I guess.

Writing the book from studying St.

Elizabeth, what is your advice like what insights have you got for women

in a nutshell in that particular season that you've just described?

Because I was talking to, um, one of my beautiful friends who he's just

still working through your book.

She's been working through it for many months because it just really

impacted and been speaking to her.

She said, ask her how she managed to write a book with children

and doing all the things.

So, ah, so have you got some little pearls from the book for women that

could really speak into their life in that season and in that struggle?

I have some pearls from another book and it's called the Bible.

Oh, very good.

I've heard

it's um, it's a good one.

A highly recommended definitely.

Um, in revelation three, I wrote this down because it's so powerful.

The Lord says through scripture, I know your deeds.

See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut.

I know that you have little strength yet you have kept my

word and have not denied my name.

And what that just says to me is this idea that the Lord has a plan that

cannot be thwarted by any kind of virus.

It can not be stopped by a season of life.

It's not even stalled.

Like it's his plan all along that we are where we are when we are doing what we're

doing and he's using it all for good.

It's part of this story.

It's not going to be our favorite chapter, but it's like the necessary

chapter for the next thing in our life.

And when it's time for that, the door will open and nothing on this

earth will be able to close it and we will walk through it and God

will use us and he will make happen.

What he intended from the beginning of our existence to

make happen through our yesterday.

And I firmly believe that because there have been so many, and

I talk about this in the book.

So many seasons in my own life where I felt so small,

so hidden, so insignificant.

And honestly I was, but those are the seasons like beneath the soil

where the roots are growing, where the foundation is being late.

Where the work is beginning that is so necessary.

So these painful pruning seasons are like the richest, most fruitful seasons.

Um, so get ready for the harvest.

Like if you find yourself there.

That's a sign that God is beginning a great work.

And, um, the more that we kind of lean in and surrender like Saint

Elizabeth did when she had to wait.

I mean, she knew that God was calling her to that and everything

in her existence was close to it.

Um, but she didn't give up hope.

She really gave it to our lady.

I think our lady is really.

The answer to like surrendering to God in these seasons.

And Mary, this was also one of the chapters in the book was about,

um, the wedding feast at Caina and this whole idea of timing, right?

Like it really was our lady who set the public ministry of Jesus in motion.

He tells her it's not my time.

And in effect she's like, oh yes, it is.

I mean, think about the fact that at the finding in the temple,

he's ready and she's like, no, no, no, we're going to go home.

So she's really the one who seems to set things in motion or to hold off on things.

And so if we give her our vocation, she will open the door when it's time and

then nothing will be able to, to close.

I don't know if that's helpful or not, but yeah,

absolutely.

And you know, like, just during these times, you know, I feel like the church,

the world, there's so much, there's so much uncertainty and anxiety in people's

hearts and there's a real call and a move for people to pray fast and just returned.

To praying to our lady to placing everything under her mantle.

And I think that really is key during this season at the moment.

I know that we've just returned in a bigger way to praying the

rosary and just placing everything under her mantle of protection.

But I think very much so.

And you touched on this idea of vocation.

And I love this area in your book where you really look at the sanctification

that's happening in our vocation, because I think, and you touch on this.

And I know it's true in my life that sometimes we despise

the days of small beginnings.

So the Bible says, and we struggle with being insignificant on being small

or not doing or not using our gifts.

So not knowing what step to take next, but there's something really

sacred, as you said about that season of not knowing and that season.

Understanding that God's still at work in when it seems that he's not, he's

still working, he's still powerful.

And it's those seasons where we have to lean in to discover what it is, what

is the gift that he wants to give us in this season, whether that's suffering

or uncertainty, or being at home with young children and seemingly not doing

anything significant in the eyes of the world, but really the significance of

what we're doing at home is cannot be.

You know, there's just no words for that.

And I love where you talk about this sanctification of vocation.

I've got a quote here where you talk about how we might look for

signs in the stars of partying.

You know, the clouds, parting streaming light illuminating

a brilliant way to put it.

But more likely our path is made of breadcrumbs and fingerprints

pointing the way to heaven in the smudges of peanut butter.

And I just, I love that my sister has little, little kids

and she really loved that.

I think she might've written that and put it somewhere, but yeah.

You really emphasize the importance of being small and the unseen things that we

do for God and how he honors these things.

And that's really, it's in those small yeses that we're sanctified

and, and that's, you know, our vocation really isn't it.

Yes.

And I would say there's like two things I'd like to highlight about that.

Um, first of all, Those small things are infinite in value, right?

When they are United to Christ.

And when we talk and sometimes they're not even small things, I mean, w what you

were just describing with this season of just oppressive loneliness and just, um,

not being able to even leave your home.

And I mean, look at what the potential that, that sacrifice.

That we hold in our hands.

If we give that back to God, like we have within our power in this,

in this season of uncertainty and despair and darkness and loneliness.

If we wrapped that all up and sacrifice and gave it back up to God,

like, I feel like we could deliver the earth from so much that is,

you know, oppressing us right now.

It's just this great potential.

It's like dynamite waiting to go off heavenly dynamite or something.

But even in the small things, those are just infinite in their

ability to sanctify the world.

Yeah.

Like just to United, to Christ and offer it up.

So there is nothing small, certainly in motherhood, we hold like the future of

the church and the world within our homes.

And, uh, I mean to God, I think it is the most sacred, sacred, hidden work.

In addition to that, I also, and I know that.

Um, part of your heart to Karen is to believe that we all have been

called for a greater purpose, that the church in the world is waiting for

something that only we can bring to it.

And it doesn't necessarily mean we're going to be on a stage or even a street

corner, like, um, in front of people.

For that, we all have been gifted with something that the world desperately

needs, because we all reflect the love of Christ in a very unique and powerful way.

And in those seasons where the ministering is primarily to those closest

to us, and it feels like we'll never have anything to give anybody else.

The beautiful, what I've come to appreciate is that the beautiful

paradox is that through your death, to yourself and your dreams in these

seasons, There is always a resurrection, which is greater and more powerful.

And when you die to yourself, suddenly God is able to work.

It's like you get out of the way.

And then he takes over and he's like, now let me in.

And I'm going to show you who you really are.

And I'm going to empower you with my holy spirit and we're going to do something

amazing together, but like you had to go through that and we all will, at some

point in our life, whether it's caring for children or caring for elderly

parents or losing our job, or, you know, a struggle in a relationship or financial

or whatever, God loves us too much.

Not to kind of give us the opportunity to die to ourself so that he can step in and

do something greater and mighty or more powerful than we could ever have imagined.

And we discover who we are.

Through that self death.

It's just amazing.

Like, I just can't even wrap my mind around it sometimes,

but I know there's so many paradoxes aren't there, like in the gospel

lose, just so fun, just so lit.

Yeah.

And only until you've lived through it.

Can you say amen.

ALU?

Yeah.

I can testify to that.

And the Lord wants you to testify to what he's done in your life.

Absolutely.

I feel the season of life for us is very much a job season.

We've we've had a lot of loss across lots of different

areas over the past 12 months.

And there's just a call to press in like never before to the Lord.

And I'm finding that all these other things.

Sort of fall away and to the point where he's really all I want is that

leaning in because you realize that he's oh, you have really ultimately at

the end of the day, your relationship with Christ is all we have.

And so to choose that every day, but as you were speaking, I recall another season

in our life after we were married, we tried to start a family for six years.

That didn't happen for us and the sisters of life prayed.

And then we had three kids in three years.

So he said, please stop praying.

Now that say's going to be in fertility was very hard.

And, and as you talk, and even in this season that I'm in right now, I'm often

referencing that season, you know, so many years ago was just that total breaking of.

Myself.

And I felt because I had endometriosis and celiac disease and a few other things.

So I think the issue is with my body, that after six years, I did reach

the point where not only did I feel like my body was a failure, that th

that I was a failure as a person.

And it was a very damaging mindset.

And the Lord really had to strip me and bring me to my knees.

In this area of identity where I could actually receive his identity

as his beloved, regardless of whether I bought biological children and

the revelation that I had incredible value, regardless of my capacity

to bear children or to do anything.

And I remember in that season of priest giving me a scripture from Hosea where

it said I will lead her into the desert and then I will speak tenderly to her.

And I think so much of our lives, you know, in whatever seasons they come, like

you said, it will happen to everybody.

We will all walk into that desert where we feel alone.

We feel abandoned where we experienced loss and we're trying

to make sense of life and who we are, but I, but you've done in.

Kelly is really reorient and elevate and refocus us on

that relationship with Christ.

That that is the ultimate.

And just to keep our eyes really focused on him and also the revelation

that the Trinity lives within us.

And so that we are a template of the holy spirit.

So how are we, even in the midst of the difficult seasons of our life,

how are we bearing Christ to those that we're called to do life with?

So I just, yeah, there's so many beautiful themes.

I think we could do like a million pug that's just on your phone for

sure.

Um, really quick though, just to go back to what you were saying

about that era time, right?

Hmm, going into the desert.

Um, I just completed, as I said, this program in spiritual theology, which was

so rich and I had it have an undergraduate degree in theology, but it was more,

you know, ecclesiology Christology that, you know, the sacraments moral theology.

And I never, until I was, you know, an adult, you know, more

recently, did I dive into the real spiritual theology of the church?

Like I said, that's how I encountered Elizabeth and her writing.

One of the themes that are saints talk about in their spiritual writings, right?

Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the cross is this necessity for these

dark nights and the reality that we can't even progress in the spiritual

life until we've reached our own limits.

And really what the dark night is is you encountering your own.

Limitation.

I mean, to the point where you feel like you have nothing left, you've

reached the end of yourself and then God can step in and say, okay, now that

we've established, he's in control.

It's not about you at all.

Absolute need for me, which is a beautiful thing, you know?

And, um, your, what Elizabeth of the Trinity would call your abyss of nothing.

Which is not supposed to be something like discouraging or depressing, but

like the reality of this infinite capacity that we have for God.

So think of it, not as like this nothingness in the sense of like

it's negative, bad negativity, right.

But it's, it's the, it's a capacity.

It's this infinite capacity that we have to receive.

Once we realize our nothingness, then suddenly God has

something to pour himself into.

And so in the, in spiritual theology, like you can't even progress into the stages

of prayer that these saints talk about.

So you've gone through that.

So if you recognize yourself in that season, it's like really well.

Okay.

But that speaking of that interior space, right?

The space in our soul that I think we don't St.

Catherine of Sienna said, you know, create a cell in your heart and never leave it.

And you were talking about that idea of like a cloister within, which is so

Carmelite and Elizabeth loved telling, you know, in her letters talking

about this place of encounter, that we, when we were baptized, we became

temples of the father, son and holy spirit and a part from mortal sin.

Like they will never leave.

Like their presence, their remains.

And so we become a dwelling place for the Trinity, but how

often do we even remember that?

How often do we go through life?

And the Lord is as close as like our soul and we don't even recall.

And so just the saints, you know, this idea that, um, Wherever you are, you

can be United to Christ and to the holy Trinity and to live in union with

him, which is the beginning of heaven, which is what we were created for what

we will find in its fullness, but not something that we have to wait for.

Our having really begins.

Now, if, if heaven is union with God, if you've been baptized,

your eternity has begun even now.

And that's such a paradigm shift.

Isn't it like to really shift your mind towards that and reorient your mind.

It's immensely powerful because you just, then everything you

do is coming from that place.

It transforms how you're interacting with your husband and your children.

When they're driving you bananas with work and all the pressures, the person at the

checkout who's depressed and miserable.

It just changes and transforms the way that you.

Engage with life, doesn't it?

It, it absolutely does.

I just came from a conference, um, and it was beautiful, but it was like

a lot of people, a lot of activity.

Um, I'm an introvert.

So these things are like overwhelming for me.

And, um, but when I was able to remember that I was not ever alone that Christ it

wasn't, it wasn't me at this conference.

It was us.

It was like me with Christ.

You know, every person I was interacting with and engaging with it was like us,

you know, engaging with this person.

It was us listening to this talk.

There was this internal dialogue, like, what do you want me to

hear from this speaker, Lord?

You know, what do you want me to say to this person?

What do you want me to pray for during our holy hour?

And just this ongoing conversation that becomes like second nature and

suddenly you're never alone anymore.

Yeah, I love that.

I know it tied in, you know, the desert fathers.

I think you mentioned those that, you know, the desert fathers would withdraw

to that lonely place physically to pray, but what you're highlighting

here, and what you're saying about being at that conference is that we can

just withdraw wherever we are in the midst of the noise and the busy-ness.

We can just come back to ourselves and the Lord within us and practice that

recollection so that we are carrying.

With us.

I think that's immensely powerful.

There's a beautiful quote in your book.

If you don't mind me reading it back to you, do you know your book off by heart?

out

loud.

I had to read it out loud.

Um, cause we recorded an audio version, which isn't out yet soon.

Hopefully.

Yeah.

And as I was reading it, I was like, oh, did I write that this is

good?

Don't even remember it.

Well, because this is one I've actually printed off.

Um, it talk talking about these recollection and practicing recollection

in the midst of busy-ness that you say the noise of the world might

be invitations and opportunities to practice self-mastery and recollection

to keep our center increased.

Even as the noise beckons us away from him and closer to the edge of self-indulgence

practicing recollection is one of the key ways to holiness in a world that

would love to claim us for itself.

And that leaves shiny things everywhere to lead us away from the path of God.

For me, that that is a brilliant quote right there.

Just to remember that there's.

So many distractions and to start to see life through this lens of invitations

that that God is giving to us every day.

So the child who won't get dressed and won't get ready, I put my things

away instead of seeing that as an obstacle and incredible irritation,

to see it as an invitation.

And again, that paradigm shift to their husband who, you know,

might be difficult and the communication's not flowing freely.

Instead of seeing him as an obstacle to personal happiness, perhaps there's

an invitation there to lean in to get to know him and to offer the love of

Christ rather than wanting him to change.

So there's just, I love that paradigm shift of the invitations,

seeing things and difficulties as invitations rather than obstacles.

Yeah, I think it's such this powerful idea of the present moment and the

fact that, um, you know, Fulton Sheen's said that the devil will

tempt us to the past or to the future.

So when we find ourselves living in regret or, you know, what

ifs or resentment or grief.

Or we find yourself daydreaming about what we wish would happen or fears or

anxieties, more likely, you know, about what's what could possibly happen.

None of that is from God.

Now there's a time to plan and there's a time to revisit, you know, areas

that need healing, certainly with God.

But when we're like not in the present moment, um, I mean, that's where he is.

He's in the present moment.

He's in whatever's happening at the moment.

You know, that that's what you're supposed to be attending to.

Yeah.

And so it's so freeing.

It's so releasing.

So when that child is crying, like that is God's will for you at that

moment, you don't have to guess it.

Yeah, that's his will.

And like how much of our life do we spend wondering what God wants us to do?

And so often it's like right in front of us and I think it goes back

to that verse in revelation, like the Lord says, I know your deeds.

I see it.

All right.

I know you have little strength and yet I'm going to place that door

before you at when the time is right.

And you just ha you don't have to worry about what it's going to look

like, or when it's going to appear, you just do the next right thing

with love and trust me with the rest.

And it'll all be fine, but you just have to be obedient to the present moment.

Yes.

And there's a real sacramental nature in the present moment too.

I think, you know, it's one of the best ways that we can guard against anxiety,

but it takes a lot of discipline.

It's definitely not easy to do, but it's developing a mindset and a

discipline to bring ourselves back.

And that's that recollection that you talk about is just

coming back to Christ within you.

In the present moment, because that's where his grace, his father's sharp.

Felipe is big on that.

The grace is just for the present Gracie's and in the past or

in the future, but it's here.

My husband often says to me, he's quoting the alpha, you know, give

us this day, our daily bread, like God gives us grace for today.

And, and so whatever season that wearing or whatever challenges we're

facing, there is grace to face that.

But our challenge and our task and invitation is to, to practice recollection

coming back to Christ within us so that we can engage in that invitation

and receive the grace.

Absolutely.

You know, God will give us the grace.

But if we're not even there, how do we receive the grace to respond

in love to what he gives us?

And I mean, you're so right about give us this day.

It's not like give us bread for the next 10 years.

You know, it's give us what we need today, which is so hard for us because we just

want to have our storehouse all set and you just want to plan for the future.

Um, and there's, uh, there's certainly value in to that, but, um, I was

going to say, what was I going to say?

Um, this idea that we'll get the grace that we need when we need it.

So often people with, you know, one or two children will say to me, I

don't know how you have six kids.

I couldn't do it.

And I'll say, well, you haven't been given the grace for six children.

I didn't have the grace for six children when I had one.

I was given the grace with the child for that child for no other child,

but mine and it's specific to them.

And I don't have graces for what God has not called me to.

And that's also like a key that if we can learn discernment yes.

With that in mind.

When we're finding ourselves operating outside of God's, will we shouldn't be

surprised when things fall apart, but when we're operating in his will and

we say yes to something, we're not even quite sure how we're going to do it.

And then suddenly like writing the book.

Right.

I don't know how I'm going to do this.

This doesn't make any sense.

Trying to write a book.

Have kids at home trying to get on my computer to do their classwork and

COVID word and COVID, and we're trying to order my groceries quickly before

somebody else buys, you know, the last pound of ground beef or whatever.

Um,

It doesn't make sense.

And yet God comes through.

And then other times in my life, I have tried to make something happen.

I have really wanted it.

I have willed it and I'm determined it's going to work and I'll, you

know, come hell or high water.

I'm gonna make this thing work.

It doesn't work because it wasn't within his will.

I don't have the grace for it.

Other things in my life start to fill up to fall apart.

And you're like, wait, clearly the Lord isn't in this.

Clearly, this was me.

For Shane to push my own agenda.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I love that.

And it's just, I think there's a lot, there's flow.

Isn't there when we're abiding in him and we're responding to his, you know,

he's the inspirations of the holy spirit.

There tends to be a flow.

So it's the next right step.

Yes.

Not without struggle, but yet.

But

there's a grace thing.

There's a grace.

Like everything kind of works out that's right now and everything's taken care of.

Yeah.

Yes,

absolutely.

Now look, I'm just, I'm conscious of time, but the other thing I would

just love you to touch on is speaking into these area of gifts and women.

Discovering their gifts discovering what they call to eat.

It's time beautifully looks at the three layers of vocation.

She talks about.

We have a universal vocation.

Everyone has a vocation to love, like universally men and women.

Then we have a primary vocation, and that's how we live that call to love

out whether that's your religious life, married life, the single

life, but the third layer is really.

Area of individual personal vocation.

So every single one of us has been called by God.

We have a mission and a purpose over our lives, and he has given

us unique gifts, skills, talents, strengths, to fulfill that mission

and purpose, obviously for women.

I think so often women fall into this.

Of comparison, where they measuring their gifts against another person's.

And, and a lot of the genius project is really around resourcing and

supporting women to discover their unique genius, to discover what it

is that God has placed within them, but not only discover it, but then to

activate that how then they can step out.

And so I just love you because in your, one of those chapters, you

really dive into these areas of personal vocation and giftedness.

And I guess, any closing thoughts that you might have for women around this

idea of really embracing, discovering, and cultivating their unique gifts?

Because I find in my life when I'm, you know, operating and now in my late

forties, there's a greater peace than what there was in my late teens or

early twenties to be who I actually am.

Yeah, I think that's just a evolution of maturity, right?

Where we come to deeper peace about who we are and what we're doing.

But I think so many women really do struggle with

wondering what their gifts are.

Especially if they've been raising children for many years.

They're like, what do I have to offer in the eyes of the world?

Maybe they're not being productive or successful.

But I'm just wondering if you can speak into that based on, I guess

what Saint Elizabeth was saying in her, her writings around embracing

our unique calling giftedness.

Okay.

I just love that for so many reasons.

First great topic.

It's a passion of mine.

Um, as well, also my next book, which I'm under contract for is on St.

You Stein.

Oh, I love it.

And I'm giving a talk, um, in November, um, and in another state,

um, to, for a marriage conference.

And I'm going to talk about the idea of even though, not even though,

but be within the married vocation, you never lose your own call.

That's right.

Um, in fact, it will be magnified through your obedience, to your state in life.

Um, which again, there's that paradox.

Like if I die to myself, it seems like I'm dying to my dreams.

God wants us to surrender to our state in life and, you know, to,

to give of ourselves completely.

And yet.

That seed that he, you know, placed within us when he, when he

created us, never, never leaves.

But anyway, um, where to begin, I, I will say this, I will say

this, and I think that it really relates to Elisabeth's message.

One reason that you, and I know more about who we are and feel confident in

the gifts God has given us now in our forties than we did in our twenties.

Is because we have grown closer to God through the valleys, through the highs

and lows through the purifications through the yes, but most of all through prayer.

And when you say yes to God and you even begin a practice of prayer,

that's even five or 10 minutes a day, but you show up day in and day

out and you open yourself to him.

The beautiful thing is that the closer you get to God, the more you

see yourself reflected in his eyes and he reveals you to yourself, but

it cannot happen apart from him.

And it cannot happen apart from prayer.

And so it's just this delightful dance of like, you die to yourself, you draw near

to God and it gives you back two years.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

I feel like until you've experienced it, it might sound just like

what's going on,

right.

Just to draw near to God in prayer and you'll discover yourself in the process.

Absolutely.

And I think it's just the faithfulness, isn't it?

In the small things.

So if we're faithful in the small things, we're entrusted with bigger things.

And, and so that ambiance, like you said, like, I think often say to women, if you

don't know what to do with your life, just practice, the small things, be obedient to

the small things we have done say with our kids, you know, make your bed everyday,

develop good habits, put the blinds.

Put your hot water bottles out in the morning.

There's all these little steps.

So once you've been ambient in the small things, God doesn't

trust you with, with the bigger

things.

Yes.

And a lot of times it starts out small.

Like for me, it was the Lord saying, I want you to write one post.

I didn't even have a blog at the time.

Okay.

I was like, you want me to what I had sworn I would never start a blog.

This was way back.

I was like, who's got time for that.

I will never do that.

And the Lord was like, well, actually

about

that, you won't eat your words.

So just like writing one thing, not knowing why, but knowing that he was

calling me, you know, that one small, yes.

Sign up for one class, write one article, just be obedient.

Yeah.

And let him take care of the rest.

I didn't have to have it all figured out.

Yes.

I just had to do

that next.

And that's a trap, isn't it for so many, just wanting to know how

it's all going to work now, but he doesn't, it doesn't work like that.

Yeah.

I know.

I know.

Somehow get to a place where you're okay with that eventually.

And yes, I mean, there's still that struggle.

I remember many years ago we lived and worked in a boys boarding

school and I had a real heart.

This is 20 something years ago for women's ministry and young women.

And Jonathan, my husband gave me these quotes and it's from Abraham Lincoln.

I was study and prepare myself and perhaps my time will come.

And so all those years, all those years ago, I just studied.

And then we went to the John Paul to Institute and studied there where

I specialized in feminine genius.

And, and it's just been step by step.

I think it is about just being faithful in the small things, taking

the next step, but importantly, taking some kind of action.

So I think, you know that Saint Joan of arc quote, acting gobble,

act that even though we might not know where it's all heading, we

often can discern through action.

So he, he reveals his will when we're acting.

So if we're sitting back waiting from effects, my heaven.

He just doesn't work like that.

It's never going to happen, but it's taking the next right step and

not being afraid to step out this idea of massive imperfect action.

As long as you know, we're doing that under the gaze of the holy spirit,

then if it's really not what the Lord wants, he makes that pretty

clear.

Yes.

How can we discern if we don't give, if we didn't have nothing to work

with, we can't, we pray and then we act, and then we discern that's right.

And we pray and then we act, and then we discerned.

And if we make a mistake, we pray and, you know, we just, we just have to have

trust in God and be, and that is another point to the idea of like having the

inner cell living a life that's recollect lectin, living a life that's prayerful.

How can you hear when God is prompting you to do that next small thing, if

you're never listening to him, Yeah.

You know, we can say all the rosaries and we can do all the Navitas and

do all the things and we can, and I speak from experience never stopped to

actually listen, never maintain that stillness so that when that whisper

comes and it's often a whisper, we actually hear it so that we can obey it.

It's easy to talk about like surrendering and following the will of God, but

like, how do we even know what that is?

If we're not.

Silent with him.

Um,

amen.

But I, I completely agree.

And the greatest blessings of my life have just come from the smallest.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you, Claire.

That's a beautiful interview.

We might have to get you back on to cement because I know

that's a passion of yours too.

Isn't it?

I've

taken him to talk to you.

You know who father Timothy Gallagher

is?

Yes, no, I'm taking a

class, not in person, but like a five day intensive class on teaching dissertation.

I'm so excited.

Well, maybe you can, we'll come back on and share your pills of wisdom.

Okay.

That'd be great.

God bless you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Claire.

She truly is a special soul and I feel so blessed to have connected with

her and we will definitely have her back on the podcast for other things.

How hard here at the genius project is to really resource you in the area that you

find yourself in your sphere of influence.

So I just like to invite you that if you have a topic that you would like

addressed, or if you have somebody that you think would be a great guest on the.

Please drop me an email@karenatgeniusproject.co.

Once again, if you are interested in any of the resources that we have on

offer here, please visit the website www dot genius, project.co, particularly

the Catholic women's masterclass.

We are closing the doors on our third group next week.

So if you haven't and you want to please get in touch, if you like

what you're hearing on the genius podcast, please share the link with

your friends and also go onto the podcast app and leave a review.

The other thing I'd love to invite you to is our private

Facebook group for Catholic women.

This is where we are growing a community of Catholic women who

resource and support one another.

Journey of growth and life.

And finally, we've kicked off a YouTube channel, so you can go on

and actually watch the interview with Claire Dwyer online at the

genius project, YouTube channel.

So go and check that out on next week's podcast.

We're going to be diving into this beautiful topic of the

many seasons of a woman's life.

And how we can live that season with grace.

So I look forward to you joining us next week, have a beautiful week and goodbye.