Season 26, Episode 22 - Shaun Boyce, Bobby Schindler

Summary Mike Manzella, founder of ProServe Solutions, spent 22 years running and coaching at tennis and pickleball clubs before going all in on consulting. He breaks down the three pillars he uses to diagnose every club, attention, retention, and monetization, and shares real examples of the revenue clubs are leaving on the table.

Key Topics

• Mike's path from competitive junior tennis to club GM to founding ProServe Solutions
• The three pillars of club growth: attention, retention, and monetization
• Why most clubs have an ecosystem problem, not just a marketing problem
• The "10 for 10" campaign that generated over $10,000 in revenue in one afternoon
• How HOA and resident driven clubs differ from public and member only clubs
• Why seeking outside advice is not a weakness for club operators
• Mike's answer to our signature question, if you were king of tennis

Keywords Mike Manzella, ProServe Solutions, racquet club consulting, tennis club marketing, pickleball club growth, club retention strategy, club monetization, HOA tennis programs, GoTennis podcast, ARA, American Racket Sports Association

Sound Bites "Money talks. If we can find ways for clubs to make more money and save time so people aren't getting burnt out, that's a huge thing in this industry." "It'd be very silly not to consider outside advice and think you have all the answers yourself." "It took about 10 to 12 minutes to set up and generated a little over $10,000 in revenue. I call it the 10 for 10."

Full YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/F0M-cXyOvAs

King of Tennis Video: https://youtube.com/shorts/-hKx4wu7rjE

Learn more about Mike Manzella and ProServe Solutions: https://proservesolutions.info

Connect with Mike on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-manzella-064a7537/

Contact Our Hosts

• Shaun Boyce, RSPA: [email protected] | https://americanracketsportsassociation.com/
• Bobby Schindler, RSPA: [email protected] | https://letsgotennis.com/windermere
• Geovanna Boyce: [email protected] | https://regeovinate.com/
• GoTennis Website: https://letsgotennis.com/

Learn more about the Marc Kaplan Media Excellence Award we (the GoTennis! Podcast) won from USTA Georgia: https://letsgotennis.com/captivate-podcast/gotennis-podcast-wins-the-marc-kaplan-media-excellence-award/

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And now let's get into our recent conversation with Mike Manzella, founder of ProServe Solutions.

Mike walks us through the three things he looks at in every club, attention, retention

and monetization.

And he shares a campaign that took about 10 minutes to set up and made one club over $10,000

in an afternoon.

We also get into why so many club operators try to do everything themselves instead of

asking for help.

And his answer to the King of Tennis question might be the best we've ever heard.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

Who are you and why do we care?

Yeah, well thanks for having me gentlemen.

I appreciate it.

So yeah, it's a good question Shaun.

So I am Mike Manzella.

I be the context of who I am and where I came from.

I actually started like most as a competitive junior tennis player.

And in a playing some college ball, I've forced to get injured while playing and which was a blessing

in disguise.

I actually transitioned into coaching and that's really where I found my love for coaching

and instruction.

So it was probably I don't know 19, 20 at the time.

Always had an infinity for business, marketing, technology, even way back then.

But wasn't really sure how the two of those worlds kind of met.

And after I graduated, I ended up getting an opportunity to work for Peter Burwas International.

So they are I'm sure many are familiar, but if they're not, it's an international tennis

management company that primarily works with private clubs and resorts across the world.

So got some amazing opportunities there early on in my career, my early to mid 20s.

Got some great networking and mentorship and coaching while I was with that organization.

And that really honestly kind of accelerated my career path quite honestly because I was

able to gain so much phenomenal experience in such a compacted time early on.

So really fortunate for that company and Peter and all the people that I work with during

that time period.

And then I actually moved back to Buffalo after about four or four and a half years working

with Peter and had an opportunity to general manage two private clubs in Buffalo, New York,

my hometown, and my hometown.

And so I oversaw those programs.

There's probably about a staff of 40 or so folks between full time and in full time.

And I don't know, maybe 28, 29 at this period of time.

And to that for close to 10 years had some phenomenal experience running, operating, growing the

business, working on every aspect, leading staffing.

I always kind of felt like there was something missing, right?

We were growing, but never at the rate that I really wanted to be.

And there was a gap in my knowledge and a gap in my skill set during that time.

And it always kind of bothered me.

And then COVID happened and like many disrupted a lot of different things.

And I was about two weeks into having my first born and she was born in April.

And I think if I'm mistaken, I think it was March 16th, right?

It seemed like the world just shut down.

So I had my first born and then found out that the clubs had to leave me off, right?

Because they weren't sure if they were going to be reopened.

So I was kind of faced with the reality of, and what do I do?

Do I stay in tennis?

Do I?

Because if I do, right?

So many opportunities in Buffalo, New York, let's be honest.

And if I do stay in tennis, I'm going to have to uproot the family and go somewhere else.

And three months later we found out our second was on the way.

We have Irish twins.

So I was like, no, we're definitely sticking around for a while.

Most of my family and my friends were here in Buffalo.

So I was fortunate enough to find an opportunity with marketing, technology, consulting, staffing

firm.

And I did executive recruiting.

And I also ended up doing some business development and some sales for them over a course

of four years and got a completely different kind of education in a lot of the things and

a lot of the gaps in my knowledge and skill sets that I was missing.

And I said to myself, wow, this would be incredible to take a lot of these things and bring it back

to the rackets industry.

And it essentially do serve clubs and whether it's owners or even at the director level,

help them grow and scale their businesses.

So a year ago I decided to double down and obviously we're watching all the explosive growth

in the Racketsport world right between Patel, Pickleball, Tennis is also staying pretty

healthy at the same time.

And I started ProServe Solutions about a year ago and left the corporate gig and decided

to go out full time.

So here we are today.

And ProServe Solutions, as I look through, it says, tailored strategies, expert guidance

and actionable insights that drive growth at every stage.

I'm sorry.

What do you do?

Yeah, so it's a good question.

So essentially to keep it really simple, right, is a typical engagement with me would look

like if a club, director and/or owners in a place, okay, where they're going, you know

what, whether they're busy or they're not busy and they're saying them themselves, look,

I think we are leaving revenue on the table somewhere.

This operation holistically could be working more efficiently so that we can be making

more revenue, okay.

If they're asking that question, then likely the answer is probably yes.

So what I do, my process is I get on a call with these stakeholders.

And we learn a little bit more about their business and I actually put people through a relatively

intensive diagnostic and assessment where we look at every aspect of the business.

And that really to simplify it falls into kind of like three categories.

So it's number one is, you know, the attention game, okay.

And there's a lot of different levers that we look at, you know, between, you know, CEO,

eight-year-old type, you know, how people are showing up their web, what are their performance

marketing channels look like between meta, between their social media.

So we look at all those things.

How are they attracting new players, right?

So we call this like attention or, you know, filling the pipeline.

So that's one big bucket that we look at.

And there's a lot of different things that we look at inside that bucket to make sure

that all that, you know, everything that they're doing is optimized.

The second layer we look at is retention.

So if you're doing all these said things to fill your attention bucket and that's optimized,

then the next thing is you got to make sure that you are converting, right?

So now we're looking a little bit more bottom of funnel in terms of what type of sales mechanisms

do you have in place, right?

And that goes all the way down between, you know, some, you could be some more tech, like

marketing technology automations to make sure that you're capturing and converting,

leave that lead flow. It could be how's the, you know, the front desk communicating and

or the director or membership directors.

How are they essentially making sure that they're optimizing what they're doing on the sell side

to convert all that attention?

And then the other bucket, the other technical things that we work on inside that retention

bucket are essentially, you know, offers and programs.

So making sure that, you know, clubs are building kind of these grand slam offers that are

going to attract and convert folks that are coming in through the pipeline.

So there's a few different layers to that retention component.

And then last, making sure that the programming and the pathways and all the infrastructure

is there to increase, okay?

LTV, long term, I'm sorry, the lifetime value of their customers increased the, you know,

revenue per player, right?

And now that last bucket is that monetization, how are we growing and multiplying what we've

done, the work we've done in bucket A, B and C, right?

So we're just, so that's where I think that, you know, this might go into one of your questions

a little bit later, but I think that's a little bit of where I am different because I understand

all three of those phases.

So well, not just the ops, not just the programming, not just the coaching, right?

Because I did that for 20 years, but how everything needs to be orchestrated to make the whole thing

work, right?

So I look at every phase of your business.

So I know Bobby understood that for everybody else, what's like the two sentence version?

I help clubs out.

I help clubs do what?

You're helping my club, Sean's tennis club brings you in.

I need help with just doing everything better.

I mean, you're not going to help my coaches be better coaches.

We have education systems for the benefits sources out there.

You're a business consultant.

I'm an advisor.

I'm a consultant that helps clubs make more money grow and scout it.

Okay.

Okay.

So Bobby, how would you describe this?

How do you think this jumps in from a club standpoint?

You got public facilities and the different types of facilities out there.

How does this get accepted into, let's say,

measure Atlanta specifically?

Like who here says, "Oh, Mike, please come help."

Well, that's a good question.

Part of, I mean, Mike and I hooked up through LinkedIn and it was from reading, you know,

his post.

I was like, "Oh, here's somebody who's fairly sharp, who's got a good idea of big picture."

Obviously for us, you know, the first part of it, I always left my idea of the new marketing

campaign is the hope when I see the foresales sign that the new family that buys that house

is young with a couple of kids and are tennis players because, you know, we're so neighborhood

driven down here.

So it would be interesting.

We're not so much recruiting players, but we all, and we talk about this all the time,

scaling is certainly an issue always.

And the big buzz word now at which you've heard used is pathways.

And you know, that even happens when we speak to Alta, which is, you know, the largest

recreational tennis league in the country, they talk about the difficulty of establishing

a, you know, once we get this player, what is the steps they get them to the place where

they can become part of Alta?

So you know, that's what drew me to Mike because he had some good ideas.

I was like, "Well, you know, the more we can talk about it," and like you said, because

we are different, where do we get to the point where we're intersecting and now there

is, and obviously scaling in pathways are to avenues, even though we're more driven with

what we get like and who it is stuck with, but we still have the, you know, the next steps

are the same.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I think one of the questions that I find myself asking a lot with the clients that I

work with is, "Okay, what's next?"

What I'm referring to is, "What's next in that journey?"

Right?

So, you know, again, we start with that attention.

How are you driving attention to maximize your pipeline?

Right?

And if a club says, you know, whether, you know, if it's a club, if it's, you know, because

I know down in Atlanta, there's a lot of 1099s and kind of like independent, you know,

coaches and directors, if you will, right?

So whether that's on a club basis or even just like in someone on an individual book's

basis, right?

It's like, "Okay, if they say, look, I got so many leads, that's not the issue."

Great.

Okay?

Because you've solved that first layer.

So the second layer is, "Okay, what are you doing?

What's next?"

For that person that comes into your program.

How are you ensuring that you are, you know, taking care of them in a way and creating

enough value in a way where you can keep them longer, right?

Which is going to, if you can keep them longer, increase the LTV, right?

You're going to increase your profits, right?

You know, how can you do so in such a way where you can maybe even talk about increasing

your rates because there is so much demand and how do you do that strategically and sequence

that accordingly?

So that's another thing to look at.

And then how do you take, you know, Mary Beth and get her to play more?

You wanted to play longer instead of, you know, churning, she comes in, doesn't have a great

experience and she's out over at the club next door, right?

And, you know, within 90 days or you also have the opportunity to increase Mary Beth so

that she stays for a year, two, three years.

But then also you can take Mary Beth and get her playing from once a week to twice a week

to maybe even three times a week, right?

So, you know, those are the three things that we kind of look at.

And again, I'm oversimplifying a little bit because every club, every, every directors kind

of in a little bit of a different situation.

So, and that's part of the reason I haven't necessarily really gone forth and said, hey,

you know, this is my standalone offer and I only do one or two things like a service-based

agency, right?

Where they might have, you know, a marketing agency or an advertising agency might be able

to help you do one, two or maybe three things specifically just on the marketing side.

I zoom out and I look at everything holistically to make sure that we are creating bespoke

solutions through those three phases that are tallied either to the individual director

approach or to the entirety of the facility, whether it's, you know, public facility, whether

it is, you know, a country club, whether it's a privately owned, you know, commercial facility.

So, everything has kind of their, you know, their own unique ecosystem.

So, we have to handle it accordingly.

How much experience do you have with HOAs?

Because I'd love to put you on the spot here.

I can think of Bobby, what, 50 to 75 people that we know that have a similar role to you,

Bobby, where director of Racket Sports and it's essentially a giant neighborhood.

It's not a private country club.

It's operated differently.

You still have the board.

But what I'd love to ask you, Mike, is what can you do for Bobby, meaning if we use him

as an example and Bobby, you got two other coaches.

That work with you somewhere in between full and farce time.

Yeah.

And I think everybody's at 1099.

But really it's, he's allowed to bring in non-members, Bobby.

Can you give him like the 30 seconds of what wind to me, or how it operates?

And we're going to have Mike kind of go through a quick little thing if Mike you're willing

to do something like this.

I think it'd be fun because it would be really actionable, interesting, actionable information

to say, okay, here's some things you can look at within a business of this style.

Bobby, can you catch him up on exactly how wind of air operates?

Yeah, as you said, we are predominantly resident driven.

That's our number one concern.

As kind of a trade off to the fact we are 1099, we can bring in outside people for the

benefit of the teams as well.

You know, if we can bring somebody in that can help, it also facilitates our lives where

we're not having to leave.

You come to us, you know, if something you don't live in the neighborhood, they allow people

to come to us.

So we get to stay on site more.

So that's a concession that is often given down here.

The non-resident pays a little bit more, but nothing that is going to break the bank.

As Sean said, we have different tiers, probably a lot of the same problems in that the kids

get off at a certain time from school and the adults want to get back on the court.

So you have a very small window of getting the courts on.

I would say the biggest problem we have is trying to integrate and not being, you know,

we want the non-residents to fill in the holes, but then we don't want the non-residents.

So you know, it's always fighting each other.

How do you, you know, and we always use buzzwords like you establish the culture to get where

people understand, hey, this is a collaborative process to benefit everybody.

We got to work together.

What do you say to somebody who's a little bit reticent about saying, this is my neighborhood?

Yeah, I know I need somebody, but this is still my neighborhood.

Yeah, so what I, essentially what I'm hearing right is there's like a little bit of maybe

kind of like turf wars in turmoil between the residents that are there as opposed to maybe

some of the people outside of the community that you're bringing in.

And the fact that, yes, absolutely.

And there's also that because it's theirs and it's an H.O.A., it probably doesn't go into

the rules that it's a club would have.

So there's a lot more power in the individual.

You're, you're a lot of teams, for instance, are at the mercy of captains who can essentially

make their own minor rules.

And it makes it tough to run a program, you know, to get the continuity you want out of

a program.

So I would say a lot of programs in Atlanta operate at 50% or 60% and are half, you know,

everybody is comfortable with that.

And you know, it gets frustrating for it, you know, it's like you said, I look at this as

a business, I say we're leaving a lot on the table.

Yeah.

But what do we do to break down the walls that are creating those obstacles?

Yeah.

So, so you're telling me that you're, a lot of these facilities are running at like a 50,

50 to 60% capacity.

And when you say capacity, so I look at capacity and utilization as two different

things.

So utilization I look at in terms of like how much of the courts are being utilized on

a given day.

And then the capacity is to me the way that I kind of, you know, I just, my head, you define

it is, okay, if I have, for instance, if I'm running a clinic with a max of 12 people and

I have six people that are coming to that, I'm at a 50% capacity as opposed to, is that

early, just want to make sure on the same page.

Yeah.

You're saying it.

I mean, we have no utilization issues.

Okay.

If you look at us, you say, oh, we're, our courts are being utilized.

Yeah.

But like you said, we have, we have team issues.

We don't maximize capacity when it comes to putting teams on.

We certainly don't maximize capacity when we do quote unquote events.

And it also, we could make the, the drills and stuff bigger.

They're filled out seemingly look great.

You know, my heart, I know if we had three more teams playing here, those drills,

would be bigger just because you're getting for more people.

So now do you feel that it is, is it, is it a, is it a 10, and a tension problem or is

it more or less a problem of, you know, kind of that governance of, you know, the people

in, you know, pushing back on wanting outsiders to come in.

Yeah, I guess, I feel it's a bit of both.

Yeah, but I feel I always felt like it's the governance.

Nobody, like I said, everybody wants everything.

You ever, you go up to somebody do you want this or, you know, do you want to, sure?

Well, it's, you know, it gets back to you.

You're willing to do what is necessary.

And, and you know, the big driver to me, Sean, what you're saying, and like, you're dealing

with clubs that are driven by the bottom line, money talks.

We're not bottom line driven.

And I think that's it, you know, down here, and Mike also said it, you know, there's not

as many clubs in Buffalo, New York as there are probably on my street, you know, wind

up your parkway.

If you go from one side of my street within four miles, you have five to six major 10 court

facilities within six miles of each other.

Yeah.

And probably more if I look at St. Marlowe, Laurel Springs.

That's not going north and south exactly.

Yeah, to go north and south.

This is, I mean, on one street, if you look at wind up your parkway, yeah, it's not a

good place.

I got a ton of, so you know, nobody's driving.

Yes.

I've got a lot of people who trade off.

We've tried to do this.

And again, this is what, you know, I think attracted to me, you initially, you know, your

idea of collaborative.

You know, how do we get it?

And the stuff that we're trying to accomplish with the ARA is to get people to understand

we're better together.

You know, I don't, if I can get a couple of people from CRC across the street to come to

my drills, I don't want to own them.

I just want to get out of the kids' variety.

I just want them to come in.

It makes more fun to create a different, more, you know, more energetic atmosphere.

Yeah, so I think with, with these type of complexity, you know, these, these are like relatively

complex dynamics, right?

So, you know, I think the first thing, right, like if we were working together, for instance,

right, is I would actually want to like look at your, your marketing, your, all of your

marketing assets and your channels to ensure that you're maximizing those, right?

Mm-hmm.

Number one, and then number two, I'd also want to understand, you know, because there's

so much density in your area of competition, right?

How are you differentiating yourselves, right, from the other clubs in the area?

And getting really clear on that, because once you're really clear on what makes you guys

a little bit different, right?

Then that then leads up into your, your messaging, your positioning and then figuring out what

an offer looks like that you could put together, okay?

That attracts more people in that local area, as well as potentially builds in some sort

of win-win theme for the people that are not only coming in that you're looking to drive,

that are, that are new or just, you know, neighboring, neighboring clubs that also works well with

the existing residents that you have, right?

So, not anything that I'd probably be able to give you a solution on over, over this,

over this call, but that's likely where we would start and really start to kind of unpack

that, right?

That's essentially why I diagnostic an assessment because you could see, in case in point, how specific

your situation is and the problems that you're trying to solve as opposed to if you were a

pick-a-ball club, you know, in Atlanta, you know, I don't know, 30 minutes, 40 minutes outside

of the city and you were just a standalone facility, okay?

And let's say, you know, maybe you've been open six months of a year, year and a half.

Most of those folks are thinking about, okay?

How do I get people into the building?

They don't have these layers of, you know, residents and, you know, the HOAs and all the different

things and this kind of like governance thing that you have to be thinking about and managing.

So, it's a completely set of unique situations.

So, that's why I, you know, really like to kind of start with that assessment and diagnostic.

And that's where your assessment comes in, right?

Because you've got the, the is ProServeSolutions.info is where people can find that, but that's where

the assessment comes in because you can tell the difference between Bobby's operation and

Jim's Pickleball Club in downtown Atlanta.

And then you've got maybe a member's only club.

We've got plenty of platinum clubs here in the area in Atlanta Athletic Club or Ansely

or Capital City.

Those are going to be member-facing only.

So do you simply, I know I'm completely oversimplifying, but the marketing channels you're

talking about, does that just not turn in toward the membership to gather more activity if

they're not just looking to bring in new members?

It's got to be a completely different conversation.

It is, it is.

And again, this is why it's so specific to the goals of the club.

So a lot of clubs, and again, depending on, you know, you've been around for a while, right?

And you've been doing this at this location.

They're sitting on, you know, massive lists of people in their CRM, if they have a

CRM, right?

And if they don't, that's something, again, they should be thinking about if they don't have,

which is another conversation.

But let's just say, you know, you don't really have a lot of resources in terms of, you know,

CRM or marketing, whatever.

And you might just have, you know, two, three, four, five hundred, depending on the contacts

in your Gmail inbox, okay?

You could be using that list to create opportunity within that list alone, right?

So often, like, here's another use case that I'll give you.

So I was working with a private club, but they also have access to the, so they're more

of a hybrid model.

So they have, you can, you can join them along, but then you can also play there as, you know,

public facing, not, not having to be a member.

And so what we did for them, basically, you know, are, we're just kind of, we need, we need

kind of this injection, little injection of cash.

Things are just, sleeping, slowing down a little bit.

Our membership is falling off.

So what we did was we created this kind of activation campaign.

And this club had been around for 20 years.

And, you know, they're sitting on thousands and thousands of contacts, right?

In their, in their POI system, they use club automation.

So what we did was, we created a list segmentation.

And we said, okay, let's run a list of all the people that are non-members within the

last year.

And let's run another list of all the people that were members in the last two years that

haven't, haven't rejoined, right?

And I forget what the number was.

It was a pretty big list.

Okay.

And we ran an email campaign just to those people, right?

Create a really compelling offer.

We drove inside the building, create this really incredible event, right?

And then they could only get the offer if they attended the event.

And they sold, I think, 35 memberships on a Saturday afternoon.

And I think it generated them a little over $11,000.

And just that one instance, right?

And that doesn't include, you know, the LTV and, you know, all the other, you know, things

that they're going to do clinics and lessons and other things that they're going to do

because now they're more involved, right?

So that was just kind of one, in particular, use case that's, you know, I call it the 10

for 10, right?

It takes about 10 to 12 minutes to set up and generated about 10, little over $10,000

in revenue.

10 for 10.

We're going to start using that.

I like that plug that in for everybody, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's good.

And I like that it's a good example because a lot of people try to figure out how they can

afford something like this.

But they say, well, maybe I'm just getting by and how do I afford a consultant?

But the answer is always, you can because of the ROI of what you offer.

And that's always my question is, how do you convince, I think you and I had this conversation

earlier, it was how do you convince somebody, especially in our industry, there's ego, especially

from a GM perspective, I should be able to figure this out myself or I'm the greatest

records for a director in the world.

I shouldn't need help.

But, well, you know what, even the best require advice and especially outside the box thinking.

So how do you convince these people to say yes to something like this?

Well, I mean, I think it's a good question.

A couple things, then look, I've been a record director, I've been a GM myself, I totally get it.

So I can speak to that directly.

But I think to your point, right, you know, money talks.

So if we can find ways for clubs to make more money and save time so people aren't getting

burnt out, that's a huge thing in the industry, right?

And we can do those things together.

I think it's an incredibly powerful thing.

Also, quite honestly, I think that yes, there's a lot of ego in this industry, in this business.

But I think the narrative that is starting to change because I think, I mean, number one,

there's a lot of resources and a lot of things out there on the internet, social media, etc.

That are, I think, making it more socially acceptable to be willing to go out and seek help,

mentorship, coaching, advice, etc.

So, you know, and the other thing that we have to think about is in the grand scheme of

things, these are very small businesses, right?

And if we're talking about mid-level and enterprise organizations who are doing hundreds of millions

of dollars, billions of dollars, and they're seeking advisement and they're seeking counsel

elsewhere to help grow their business, I think it would be very silly not to consider that

and to think that you have all the answers yourself.

I certainly don't like that.

I like that.

And then he used the word silly, Bobby.

My father always used the word silly when he didn't want to say stupid.

Let's do it again.

Just say silly instead of stupid, I'm like, I think that's what Mike just did.

Wish I loved it.

Bobby, you got anything else before I hit him with King and Tennis?

Nope.

Like, here I will say one thing, and I think I have niche down here.

Part of what we were talking about, yes, Sean, is this, you should be part of the conversation

in the hiring process as well.

Identifying what you are as a club, because what I heard from my perspective, just taking

out of it.

So I'm pretty stuck with, or I'm not driven financially by new members.

That doesn't affect us.

But scale by getting new members and getting a little bit more money, resources into it,

that does allow me to scale, that does allow me to offer more, and that's when the members

of the residents start to see value.

So if you could get, and I almost look at this, I would love for Mike to come in and speak

to my board.

Really, I don't think he's going to say anything that they probably haven't heard, which is

just as good, because then it's a conformate, oh, and Bobby actually might say something.

And we're close to Bobby.

Here's somebody who this is what they do for a living, and they're telling essentially

a very similar story.

And I think it helps everybody.

So I see that as being the road for our HOA guys is to come, you know, let's get him

in front and talk to the, we understand this part of it, but you still do have scaling issues,

most definitely, and we'd all like to make more money.

Because if I make more money, I can get you another instructor, which means you're going

to get a better variety, which you're going to get more, you know, more drills.

That's right.

And then your benefit, so your value goes up.

So yeah, even though the first variable changes, I do think the rest of it certainly is very

applicable here.

So now I'll shut up.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, and I think it just a quick point to that.

I think, you know, and that's why, you know, building these kind of like wind themes around

all the different facets of the business, and to your point, you know, activity breeds

activity.

And when you're doing that, things compound.

And when people start to win, when the directors and coaches start to win because there's

more activity, there's, you know, more prosperity, there's more opportunity.

And that really essentially, you know, resonates throughout the culture, not only with the members,

the staff, the boards, the committees, you know, it's no different than, you know, taking

a losing NFL team, right?

That's been in the dumps for years.

And you know, all of a sudden, you know, they got all sorts of problems, right?

Fans aren't happy.

The team's not happy.

You know, ownership isn't happy, right?

And then all of a sudden, when that narrative starts to turn around, and again, I can speak

to this because I've been Buffalo, and you know, Buffalo was terrible for so long.

They were great.

You know, I had the Super Bowl years when I was a little kid, and then they were terrible

for so long.

And now, you know, they're building a, you know, multi-billion dollar new stadium.

They got Josh, right?

New Face the Organization.

And the culture and the dynamic has completely turned around.

And yes, that's a big massive organization, and I'm, you know, using that conceptually.

Even down to the clubs themselves, when, you know, you're winning the culture changes.

And a lot of the problems, okay, start to go away when everyone is happy.

And, you know, things are going the way that they should be going.

Winning these stuffy.

This is a lot of things.

It does.

Also, Buffalo's attached to tennis.

Let's be honest.

I mean, you know, who owns the Buffalo Bills?

Got a daughter in the South family in the world.

That's right.

The tennis connection is there as well.

The tennis connection is there.

That's true.

So clearly, you know, Jessica Coola.

So we'll get her on next.

We'll, Mike, we went through everything and I appreciate it.

And I know I'll put you on the spot a little bit with Bobby's concept, but I think it'd be

fun to get people here.

And we focus mostly on the Atlanta area, but that doesn't mean it's not applicable everywhere,

which is to understand that bringing in advice is a good thing.

And it is silly.

We'll just stick with the word silly for now, not to do this.

Because I walk into the doctor's office and the doctor is doing nothing but doctoring.

That's it.

It doesn't take the money.

He doesn't check me out.

He doesn't check me in.

He doesn't take, he doesn't do anything but the doctoring.

And we will need the business around us.

And many clubs have that.

A lot of the independent types don't where you have to wear all the hats.

And I think there's a lot of value in what you're offering.

But I do want to ask one last question and step stepping out of your business specifically

and you personally curious as to our favorite question at the end, which is if you were the

king of tennis, whether it's the entire world, just Buffalo, just the United States, whatever,

professional, social, any aspect you can consider, even if it's racquet sports and you want to

zoom out, but from tennis.

But if you were king of tennis, is there anything you would do or change?

That's just such a wide question.

Yeah, I mean, in the context of the sport itself or the context of give me the lens, give

me the lens of in the context of who to direct it to because I feel like you can go in like

a lot of different directions, right?

Because I think this is not giving you a lens.

You're not going to give me a lens.

If you were king of tennis.

You're going to give me a lens.

You're going to give me a lens.

If you were king of tennis.

You're going to give me a lens.

It's good you can do anything you want.

What comes to your brain that says, this is something that I would change or something that

I would do because of whatever reason I won't narrow it down for you.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, look, I mean, I think it's.

I think, you know, we all got into this because we have so much passion and love for this game,

right?

And it's brought so much joy to so many people's lives, right?

So I think if I were to start there, I think finding a way, if I was the king of, if I could

wave a magic wand, I would try and touch every single person on this earth with this sport

so that they could feel all the things that we have felt throughout our journeys as professionals,

whether that's players, whether that's coaching, whether that's running our business, right?

There's so much passion and love and integrity and humility.

We talk about egos, but there is a lot of humility that comes along with this sport and,

you know, growth personally, professionally, mentally, physically.

If I could wave one magic wand, it would be to bless every single person on this planet

with this sport and what it can do for every single individual.

It's unique.

That could be one of the best answers that we've ever gotten.

Yeah.

Wow.

I mean, that also comes on the heel of our conversation yesterday, which is, wow, that was

a wow.

Yeah, hang out.

We're done.

Great job, guys.

Thanks so much.

And there, that's it.

Call it a day.

We hope that answers it.

Hope that answers it.

That's a wow.

Yeah.

And that's, we love that because that's how we often feel and most of us feel about this,

about the sport, about the industry.

It's why one of the reasons we do what we do and all three of us in this conversation do

very different things on a daily basis.

But we all do it to help our coach type friends and help the industry and make things a

little bit better all the time and to be able to wish the appreciation of that onto others.

I think that's, I think that's a nice thing to offer, Mike.

I really appreciate that.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking the question.

Thank you.

Yeah, and I know you're going to call me tomorrow.

I'll be like, Sean, I got a new answer.

Can I come back on the podcast again?

No, that's it.

I'm going to put a period.

I'm going to put a period at the end of that one.

Done.

Hard stuff.

I like it.

Mike, we really appreciate you taking the time to be here and we will make sure all the

links to what you do are in the show notes.

We'll make sure we share this with everybody in our audience.

Definitely share it with those in your reach as well.

And Bobby, thank you for joining us as always.

Gentlemen, both of you.

Thanks so much.

I appreciate your time.

Thanks, guys.

You should have me.

Thank you.

Well, there you have it.

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See you next time.

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