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Ever wonder how to turn your network into your net worth? I've discovered the secret to building lasting relationships that can transform your business and life.

In this episode of Wealthy Wellthy, Krisstina welcomes Zvi Band, a successful entrepreneur and founder of Contactually, a CRM company that had a multi-million dollar exit. Zvi shares his journey from software engineer to relationship-building expert, offering invaluable insights on networking in the digital age.

The main focus of this conversation is the power of authentic relationships in business and personal success. Zvi emphasizes the importance of moving beyond transactional interactions to build genuine, long-lasting connections that can yield dividends for decades.

Additionally, Zvi discusses his experience with selling his company, the unexpected challenges of a successful exit, and his new venture, Relatable. He also touches on the mindset shifts necessary for entrepreneurs to find fulfillment beyond financial success.

If you're looking to elevate your networking game and build a network that truly impacts your net worth, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in to discover how to create meaningful relationships that can transform your business and life.

Key Takeaways

5:44 Relationships matter more in digital age

16:37 From Contactually exit to new venture

27:17 Shifting from unicorn dreams to meaningful work

34:33 Setting personal goalposts, not society's

42:04 Building long-term relationships for success

Memorable Quotes

"Deep down we are still human beings and human beings rely on social connection and social trust in pretty much every aspect. And so therefore relationships, I do believe is one of the most important currencies that we have in the face of everything else."

"We were just so focused on growing the business that we never really paid attention to exiting the business."

"I think your next venture has the opportunity to be even closer and closer to what who you truly are."

Resources Mentioned

The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel - https://www.amazon.com/Psychology-Money-Timeless-lessons-happiness/dp/0857197681

Connect with Krisstina

Website - https://wealthywellthy.life/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/krisstinawise

YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@krisstinawise

Krisstina's Book, Falling For Money - https://www.amazon.com/dp/0692560904/

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Podcast Production & Marketing by FullCast

When we started the company, we started off very quickly by raising outside investor capital, and that almost kind of guaranteed that we had to stay on the path to reach some kind of liquidity event. I've since obviously, like, you know, rethought that in my own life. But on the flip side, this sounds weird, but, like, we were just so focused on growing the business that we never really paid attention to exiting the business. Sample it.

Zvi Band welcome to the Wealthy Wealthy podcast.

So good to reconnect with Christina. It's been. Yeah, I think you said like five years, so it's really cool. Yeah.

And before that, we met in the real estate industry and we've both traveled a long way since then. But do you remember how you and I met?

Honestly, I remember you being an early. I don't remember the exact moment, but I remember hearing your name pop up from time to time and you became a very early supporter of Contactually my previous company. And I remember that. What I really appreciate about you, that is, for lack of a better term, there's like this vibe connection. Right. And like, that's what I really appreciate about you seemed very authentic. You care truly about like building relationships and helping people start their businesses and run them in their own authentic way. And I think that's why we hit off early on.

Yeah, I think so much of what we talked about early on was we both built our businesses, our brands, our identities through relationships and networking and. But systematizing those relationships and how to follow up and. And I had my way of doing that. And you actually, as a software engineer, you actually created a Contactually, which was a CRM, a customer relationship management system. So you took it even the next level and. But it was really. I remember it was really. I mean, I used it back then, but it was designed around forming really relationships as opposed to just a contact management database.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was the. You're right. That was a key thing that we. I would say, like we happened on early on is realized that most CRMs are very much focused on transactional relationships. Right. Salesforce is there to help you drive more sales. And pipedrive is meant to move a transaction from idea to close. And what relationships you kind of. It's a lot more of like a whirlpool. Like we're trying to just maintain relationships for two reasons, but over a long period of time. And it's weird, like, you know, so far out. Like, I look back, I'm like. I almost want to say we were lucky, but it's really, like we had people like you kind of like cheering us on and kind of, you know, helping guide us around authentic relationship building and how that's different than just, you know, generating a bunch of leads, annoying the crap out of them until they finally relent and, you know, work with you. And that's something that now that throughline kind of drives through even to me today.

So let's talk about that. There's so many things I want to talk to you about today. Start with talking about relationships today and then talk about you had a nice exit from your previous business. So we'll talk about exit then you've started a new business. I want to talk about startup and entrepreneurialism again, like is this next do over and then see where we take it from there. But let's start with relationships like we talked about. I mean, I built my entire business, multimillion dollar business, really off the backs of some technology, but really creating those relationships. And so many relationships I have today started 15 years ago and we're still doing business together. But now we have a lot more money and a lot more opportunities, so the deals are even bigger. But we've got one, two, two and a half decades. So what do you think? Is there a different mindset around relationships? And even especially today when everything is so digital and online and social media, do you have any advice first, like the mindset around relationships and then two, any advice on how to cultivate them in today's environment?

Yeah, absolutely. So as I think about this and framing this argument, I kind of go back to something that Jeff Bezos said in one of his early investor letters. You know, he's, if I were to paraphrase is that we spend so much time thinking about what has changed, what will change in the future. And a better question is to actually think about what won't change. So for Amazon, for example, it's that customers want more selection, they want faster, they want cheaper. And you know, that's what Amazon has continued to innovate on those three things and those three things alone. And for us, I think it's that, you know, listen, all the technology and changes in the world and everything like that, but deep down we are still human beings and human beings rely on social connection and social trust in pretty much every aspect. And so therefore relationships, I do believe is one of the most important currencies that we have in the face of everything else. And obviously like, you know, yes, things look very different than they do 15 years ago, but in some sense it's like relationships matter even more. Right. When I can't go online without, like seeing a bunch of, you know, for example, AI generated content in my algorithmically prioritized feed, I don't necessarily know what to trust. But when Christina reaches out to me, we have enough rapport, then I'm like, oh yeah, whatever Christina wants or whatever Christina recommends. Yes, I believe in. So I believe relationships have only gotten more important. What frankly alarms me is that I find that more and more these days, people are struggling to build relationships. Like, it's less and less natural. It's much easier to send someone a text than to meet in person for coffee. Right. It's much easier to work from home than to go into an office. It's. And I've seen this, especially with younger generations, it's hard to figure out how to be social. And I think that's a, you know, we see this loneliness epidemic. And I think it's not necessarily for lack of trying. I think it's. A lot of people just don't know how to build a relationship. So therefore, what you and I do, which comes very natural to us, I think it's. There's more and more onus on us to like try and teach others. Like, literally this is even how to host a dinner party or something like that. This is how to have a coffee meeting. Because a lot of people just, they're not wired for it anymore.

Yeah, it is really fascinating because, you know, I had a whole brand that was called Coffee with Christina because I really started when I started in my late twenties in real estate. How I showed up to a brand new town in Austin, brand new to real estate. I just started setting coffee appointments and I did that for over a decade and it turned into, hey, how'd you meet Christina? Oh, I had coffee with Christina, but it was really built around that, hey, let's sit down and have coffee. And doing that regularly. So what is it that's keeping us from doing that? Is it just we're busy? Is it that there's just a different type of social anxiety? Like, what is the barrier?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, there's a, there are a few aspects. One I think is, you know, listen, the, you know, the pandemic changed a lot of things for us. Right? Like our now default mode is to work from home and order takeout rather than be in an office and, or be out in the field and meet for coffee all the time. It's almost much easier, quote, easier to just do a quick 30 minute Zoom call than it is to actually really engage with someone. So I think there's that aspect. It's very easy to point the blame at social media, and there's definitely an aspect of that, right? We are connected to more and more people, but when all I'm doing is I'm seeing the highlight reels of everyone else's life, and I'm not actually getting the chance to really connect on a deeper level and hear the trials and tribulations. And yes, like, we had this beautiful trip to Florence, but you know what? The whole time my kids were screaming at me and, you know, my wife and I weren't getting along. Like, all of those things become really big issues. And because of that, it's. We just have lost, like, the skill set for how to connect with people. You know, I've. People who've even asked me, saying, okay, so, like, if I have a coffee meeting, what do I do in a coffee meeting? And for you and I, you know, we know it's natural, right? We are exchanging small talk because that's how we learn a little bit about each other's lives. We true want to truly understand the person. We want to look at them and, you know, figure out what they're working on or what their big goals are and determine how we can help each other. And again, maybe this was just passed down or just, like, intuitively, just, like, was just generated by osmosis. But for a lot of people who, like, for example, have been home for the past five years, plus, it's just not there anymore, and it hasn't been, quote, necessary, but now I think it is.

Yeah, I'd agree with you. Hearing you talk about this made me think of a couple things. But, you know, offline, we're talking about this podcast been around five years, and you asked me, like, what's one of the secrets to its longevity? And I said, I love interviewing people. And I think that's kind of the. One of the easiest things is that I can't tell you lately. In fact, I did a little rant on this on social media because it's just one of those days. But it's like every conversation I have, mostly online, but because people, you know, I talk to her from around the country, if not around the world these days. But it's like every conversation is a sales conversation. Like, I am calling. You know, if I was introduced to Zvi, for example, in many cases, there'd be some, like, sales pitch, like, pitching myself, like, here's what I do. Or this is, you know, what I could Sell you. And it's like, things just feel like they've become transactional as opposed to relational. And I'm just like, dude, can we get to know each other first? Like, I don't know if I want to buy from you, but I know if I want to. You know, if we can like each other and if we can be in each other's networks and just get to know each other. And for me, that's like, the biggest tip is just based on my own experience, is to move out of this need to talk about oneself or what my offer is or what feels like it's going to be a pitch to the other person and flip it around the other way and be like, just not interview somebody, but really, like, learn about them and ask questions. And with this desire to get to know, because I think people are really starved today to. For somebody to actually ask a question where they legitimately seem like they care what the answer is, as opposed to just a business pitch.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the funny thing about this is none of this is new. Right. You know, one of my coaches said that we are doing less these days to learn new things, but rather remember. Right. So to build on what you just said, you know, one of the very basic principles of relationships is in order to come across as interesting, all you have to do is be interested in other people. And Dale Carnegie wrote that in 1936. Right. Nearly 100 years ago. Right. And, like, I'm just, like, shocked. I'm like, yeah, just do that. Right. And that's why I feel like a lot of our, like, epidemic of loneliness or lack of connection and the fear that's driven by not feeling that we don't have people in our corner is that we just have, like, forgotten some of these very, very basic skills. Right. Like, I remember sitting down with someone a couple weeks ago, and, you know, he's like, can we just skip the small talk? And I'm like, we could, but, like, we're trying to build a relationship here. We're not just trying to talk about, like, how we can transactionally add value to each other's, like, current business. But, like, I don't know. I want to get to know you a little bit. Right. Like, because I want to work with people who I like.

Yeah. You know, it's, again, going back to that transactional versus relational piece. And I think it's just the pendulums really swung to this other side to me, like, a representation of this. I'm curious if you experience this and if others experience this. But it's my beef, like with LinkedIn, for example, that I have now. I no longer Accept invitations on LinkedIn that aren't like really connections, that aren't introductions or referrals, that type of thing. Because inevitably if somebody says, hey, Christina, I want to get to know you, and I accept their LinkedIn because they look pretty interesting on paper. I thought, oh, this might be a good part of my LinkedIn network. And the first thing they do out of the gate, once there's that accept the connection, there's trying to sell me something automatically. And I mean, every time I'm just so curious, does that work? Who's teaching that? Is that in a book somewhere or is that an online program? But why is it like every single connection is straight off pitch right off the bat?

Yeah, and I think there's, you know, I think there are a couple of. I totally agree with you. I've seen there are a lot of tools out there that, for example, on LinkedIn they will like, you know, allow you to take a search criteria automatically, friend request someone, and the moment they accept the request, then all of a sudden it kicks off this like, you know, cold LinkedIn campaign with them. And I'm like, okay, that can work. But is that the way that you want to build relationships? Right. And where I keep going to is I feel that there is this attitude of like, you know, first we build the tools and then the tools shape us and we kind of have built, we've kind of almost optimized for over efficiency. And a lot of like, what human beings need isn't very efficient. Right. It is not, quote, efficient of our time to, you know, drive across town and have a half hour coffee meeting, you know, multiple times a week. But we know that over a long period of time that pays dividends. And this is where I find myself almost spending more time on the coaching side versus the software side. Because I have a lot of people, even like successful entrepreneurs who sold their business come to me and saying, I just don't know where to get started to build relationships. Right. Like, I just don't. What do I begin? Right. And even that aspect that you brought up of, you know, trying to get connected with everyone. Well, again, one of the basic principles is addition by subtraction. The fewer people you're trying to maintain relationships with, the more value you can add to them, the more attention you can add to them. Which is very different than the social media world where we've been tricked into thinking that quantity is what matters.

Yeah, good point. Let's switch gears a little bit because I'm so curious about, you know, when we first met, you were a founder of a CRM application called Contactually and you exited that, you sold that. So I'm really curious, like first of all, congratulations. I know you've moved on since then, but big kudos and big congrats. Do you mind talking about that? Like talk about did you start that company with Exit in mind and if so, talk about that progress, that process. Because just being a founder, you and I were talking offline as well, like how hard it is to be an entrepreneur, be a founder, figure out how to pay your bills while you're coming up with your idea and you know, changing the world with some big bold ambition and vision. But walk me through like from concept to Exit and did you start with that end in mind? And if so, how did you manifest that and make that a reality?

Yeah, it's a really great question and I wish I had a more eloquent answer than the answer was yes and no in that yes. Like once we, when we started the company, we start off very quickly by raising outside investor capital and that almost kind of guaranteed that we had to stay on the path to reach some kind of liquidity event. I've since obviously like you rethought that in my own life. But on the flip side, this sounds weird but like we were just so focused on growing the business that we never really paid attention to, to exiting the business. So it really wasn't up until I had built enough relationships with, you know, potential acquirers like more as like business prospects that opportunities started coming at us, including with Compass. Like I got a call 9pm 1 Monday night from the CEO asking if we would be interested in acquisition and that came from building relationships. But honestly no, I wasn't ready or prepared for it at all.

So it snuck up on you. And what would be your advice now that you have this behind you? Even though it sounds like yours was not accidental necessarily, but maybe a little quicker than you had anticipated. But what would be some advice for an entrepreneur who does want to have some type of liquidity event? Let me even ask something more specifically. A lot of my, I'd say a good number of my current clients, they are baby boomer age. They've built a really nice, you know, profitable multimillion dollar business and they are hitting retirement age and they want, they've built a nice asset that's been provided, really nice lifestyle. They weren't doing it in a short time frame, but now they've built something that actually has value. What would be your advice to it could be more of a startup entrepreneur, but really any business owner that has a business that has value or potential value that they could sell, what advice would you give to them?

Yeah, it's a great question. And so one of my core guiding mantras is awareness yields transformation. And so I really had no going back to my own story. I really didn't even have the awareness. I was so blinders on, focused on running the business I had today that I lack the oh, I never pulled up and said, huh, maybe we should think about selling the business the next few years or maybe we should at least make sure we have that in our back pocket and start thinking about positioning this for a sale eventually. And from there I think there's a lot of things that fall into place. Like okay, like for example, asking ourselves, well, what is the asset that I think I have? Is it I've got really great customers? Is it I have really great ip, Is it that I have a really great team? What is it that I have? And or what is it that I want to have? And then you can start positioning. Like for example, we might have made some changes to our team structure if we knew that we were going to be selling in a few years. Who would I want to sell it to? Who will support me with it? Actually, this is timely because one of my dear friends, a woman by the name of Sherry Walling, just came out with a book called Exit Strategy. And it's quite literally about how to sell your business without regret or at least start thinking about selling your business. And to be honest, this is like the, I didn't even have the awareness until I'm not going to say it was too late because it's a successful sale. But like we were very in it that like, oh, I guess we really are selling our business. And I wish I had asked myself even just a few basic questions, you know, a couple years earlier.

I think just again, coming starting a little bit with the end in mind. And in hindsight, what questions would you have asked or what? Like you said, maybe I would restructured the team, but what type of things would you have maybe done prematurely if you knew an exit was going to be happening in the next couple years?

Yeah, I mean first off, there's a question of timing, like when is a good or right time or when I'm ready or if I will be ready. Right. I have high conviction that we sold our company at the right time in the market and in my Life. You know, my co founder and I, we had young children. So like, yes, it would definitely make sense. I thought, like, okay, I consider my that first startup business school. So. All right. I'd learned a ton of through it. I do ask myself from time to time if we, for example, had been focused a little bit more on profitability. Right. So we were still burning a lot of cash, which I'm not going to say limited our options, but reduced our options in some way and well, what if we were actually had been a more profitable company and again made some changes for that. So that's one aspect. The other is thinking about and going back to relationships, Christina, like who are the potential set of buyers or. And make sure I'm building the relationships early on. Luckily I had already happened to build a number of relationships in the industry such that when it came time to start talking to people, we, they were already reaching out to us with express their interest and then one of the big ones. And I think this is a lot, what a lot of people skip over, Christina, is what happens the day after. Right? Let's just say, you know, you have been running a company for 25 some years or even five years, the deal's closed. You know, maybe you get a little bit of cash, maybe you have some equity in the acquiring company. Are you going to be happy, right? Are you going to be happy in one option, like having, quote, a job and a boss for the first time? Or are you going to be happy all of a sudden realizing that like, you don't have a company that you're running, you don't have a schedule for the day? A lot of people go into depression because they realize like, they just almost like lost their meaning in life. I was warned very early on as we were starting the due diligence process that this was going to happen, that like, I might face this existential crisis, always ready for it. But I know a lot of people who go into severe depression because they lose a part of themselves. And a lot of people just don't even have the awareness that like, oh, that might happen.

Yeah, because their business is their identity and if they lose that, they lose a piece of themselves. I love that. Let's now flip it on the other side. You said, for example, contactually kind of your first startup to exit and that was your business school education. Now you've started another business called Relatable and I think it's in the same space. So talk a little bit about that, but then more importantly, talk about what you're doing. Differently the second time with that experience behind you.

Yeah, it's a great question. So, yeah, Relatable is meant as a personal CRM to help you what I think could become like a relationship billionaire. Like to have to surround yourself by these amazing relationships. And that takes tools and technology and systems and strategy. And that's kind of everything we're packing into Relatable. What's exciting is that we're able to leverage today's technology. Right. Like, I couldn't imagine, you know, 10 years ago when we were working on the early version of Contactually, that you could have AI automatically draft emails that again, like good emails that like represent your all, like, you know, that represent your tone of voice that at least helps you draft that. Like, that's a really cool thing. That's very different. I've thought a lot about like, and having a lot of time now to look back on my experience with Contactually to really think about what I want to do in this next chapter of my life. So, for example, we had a nice big exit. I said, well, with Relatable, maybe I don't want to sell it. So we're bootstrapping it instead and saying, all right, we have no outside investors. There's no pressure to ever sell. I could keep working on this for the next 15 years if I wanted to, or 20 or 30 years. So there's no pressure. As part of that, without any outside investors, I felt there was a lot of outside pressure on me all the time. And that was again entirely in my head. Like our board and our investors were very supportive of us the whole time. But now I don't have to worry about like making or losing money for someone else. It's just what do I want to do? And then just keeping the team small and nimble now because there's oftentimes a lot of second time founders kind of have this egoic thing that their next venture has to be bigger and better. Instead I'm like, actually no, I think your next venture has the opportunity to be even closer and closer to what who you truly are. And that's the venture that I'm going down now.

I really love that, Zvi. I think that's so important that, hey, let me outdo myself the second time. And I've known a lot of second time founders who lost everything. They reinvested, they put all their chips in, they had a great exit, put all their chips in, went really big and then went back to zero. So by having that, I need to do it even bigger and better. The next time, as opposed to, hey, let me make this more closer to my heart and to what I care about and who I am. And if it sells, great, but if not, it can be almost a lifestyle business that, you know, obviously provides a good income.

Exactly. And it's very funny. You brought up a key term which is lifestyle business. And I remember when we started this back in 2011, lifestyle businesses were kind of like joked around like, oh, you're just running a lifestyle business. Oh, God, like, I got to help you. Right? You know, that was all about building a unicorn and building a moonshot. And I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place or desire people who may choose to do that, but for a lot of people, hey, a business that supports my lifestyle, that's awesome. Great. So now, like, I think I've seen a lot of other people, like, pursue lifestyle business intentionally with the idea that, like, hey, if this is my life, that I get to build what I want to work on with people that I really enjoy for customers who I really love, great. I don't need to build a billion dollar business. I can be fine with a million dollar business.

Yeah, I think it's so key, especially with, you know, so many of the big, loud social media, billion dollar business. Billion dol. And again, nothing wrong with that. And when you and I met originally, we're both in that, hey, we want to be fastest growing company. We want our version of the billion dollar business back then. And we're very motivated by that and having a big exit or maybe all the different things, but it's driven by a different set of kind of goals and egos and identities and different things. Again, nothing necessarily wrong with that, but a lot about the money and the numbers and the influence and the importance. And you and I, I didn't know this until you just said it, but it was trading that, like exiting that and leaving that. And we both, you know, sold our businesses. I think you did a lot better than I did, but still. And now it's simple. Like, I just love not being driven by that pressure and that type of energy anymore. And I love having a lifestyle business. But back then, same thing as like a lifestyle business. Like, why would you do that?

Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree. One of the. I kind of went through this whole personal reinvention and reformation in the years after I sold Contactually, and one of the books that made a huge impact on me really set that frame for me in that most of us spend our time trying to pursue, kind of trying to climb a mountain of like, more wealth, more fame, more status, more possessions, that a 5,000 square foot house is better than a 2,000 square foot house. A Rolex is better than a Timex. You know, Lamborghini is better than a Toyota. And you know, many people, you know, whether they reach the top of the mountain or thrown off of it into a valley in between, realize that, you know, maybe that's not what I should be climbing, right? Maybe what matters more for me is pursuing more joy in life, waking up and doing the things that light me up and surrounding myself with the relationships I care about rather than quote, important people that may yield more money. That turns out I'm just miserable and after all of it. Anyways.

Yeah, so well said. All right, well, let's talk money for a quick second yet a nice exit, I don't know, I think is around maybe 25, 30 million somewhere in that range, if that's correct. How did you feel like with that type of payday? Was it like Yahoo, or was it like, this is great, I'm going to go invest a bunch over there and use some as capital, do a new startup. But how did it feel like on the day that the money hit the bank?

Yeah, it's a great question. And so I brought up earlier that I was warned that, like, there would be this existential crisis coming when I sold my business. And thank God I was warned about that because I remember sitting on the couch with my wife the moment that I opened the bank account and refreshed my app and I'm like, oh, there are more zeros in there than there were before. I showed it to my wife, took a screenshot, texted my co founder just to make sure that his wire came through, and went back to watching tv. Now listen, growing up without a lot of resources and with some financial insecurity, yes, having that reduced, or at least logically reduced, like, definitely made sense. But deep down, like, the wiring is still the same. I woke up the next day and was still worried about paying my mortgage. Even though logically, like, you're an idiot, you don't have to worry about paying your mortgage or you don't have to worry about the inability to pay your mortgage for a good while. But that mindset was still there, right? And again, luckily, I was warned that this was going to happen because otherwise you can imagine you spend all years of your life, like, trying to chase that single moment and realize that single moment is like, kind of hollow. But it definitely, like, you created, you know, a different mindset. For me, like almost immediately.

Yeah. That's fascinating. And then have you changed?

Because I have not changed because of the money. Oh, sorry. I absolutely have. In that, like, with the realization that money will not solve my problems. I actually go back to Will Smith's biography that he said like, being poor was almost better being than being rich. Because when he was poor, he always thought that if he was rich, things will be better. And then once he made the money, he realized that saying things weren't better so he like, felt even more hopeless. And yeah, that definitely like realization that like that first world or that third world kind of like, or first world desire to just generate more assets wasn't necessarily the game in life, kind of put me on this whole journey of like, trying to understand more of like my meaning, what makes me tick and why do I have. Even if I'm now like in a much better place financially, why do I not feel like I'm in a better place financially? And that caused me to do a lot of deeper soul searching that has yielded with me in a much, much better place. For example, I used to spend a lot time thinking that my. And I understand this now, that my value on earth as a human being was generated by the work I did and therefore the money I made. And therefore, if I'm not actively making money, I'm not actively working at anything. I'm useless, I'm dead weight. I'm unloved. I have now realized what a ridiculous idea that is. But it's taken my own personal work to say no. Like, I am a value and I am deserving of love just as anyone else. And that's awesome. And so that's yielded me in a much, much better place. And not just for me, and not just for my family, but for my kids too.

Yeah, Right on. Thanks. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing that because I really think it's an important message because I think so many people are waiting for that payday, thinking it will change something. And yeah, it doesn't. And like you said, it was an opportunity or a catalyst to do some soul searching and to really connect to what's meaningful to your life and what you truly care about and not chase that fame or chase that out there anymore.

Thank you. Yeah, I think it's worth that. Taking a step back, and this has been my own journey too, of like, really understanding, like, what are the goalposts in my life and are these goalposts set up for me by other people? Right. You know, so many people I know, including people I'm very close with, you know, spend all their time almost like trying to fulfill the dreams or their parents or the dreams of society. Right. You know that like you're only, you know, that, you know, it's all about keeping up with the Joneses and comparison thinking that if you don't have a 5,000 square foot house, then you're worthless. And the more you kind of dig in and really ask yourself, like, well, what are my actual goal posts? Maybe things change. So, for example, for me, Christine, like a lot of my focus nowadays is I want to have total time freedom. I want to be able to wake up every day and say, hey, what are the things that I would like to do today? What are the things that excite me? How can I choose, contribute to the world and not wake up and see a bunch of back to back meetings that, you know, people dropped on their calendar? I want to work on the projects that excite me, not necessarily the projects that, quote, make money. Right? And so that takes time to kind of like unplug yourself from the needs of others and really ask yourself, well, what are my goalposts in life?

Yeah. So good. The author of Psychology of Money, Morgan Housel, he says that make sure you know how much money is enough for what's enough and what's meaningful, because if not, the goalpost always changes and you're never satisfied. You're always chasing the next goalpost. And I remember that just really the way he put that, just like, yeah, have a goalpost and that's good enough. I don't have to keep moving it for, you know, for the rest of my life.

Yeah, absolutely. And even just build on that. You know, one of the things we are told to pursue is this idea of like retirement at 65. That what I'm supposed to do is I'm supposed to work hard, build up enough of a nest egg, and then when I turn 65, I stop everything and then I've got the money and then I'm good. And then I go play golf all day and I'm like, well, I don't play golf and I don't know, I kind of love the work I'm doing. I can imagine myself doing it past 65. And even just that mindset alone of like, well, why do I have to retire at 65? Who says I have to? Is that the right thing for me financially, for my family? Right? So my joke among, like my friends and, you know, and among all of us is like, I don't know, maybe we'll Never retire. That sounds cool, right? Like you know, or at least build a life that we never have to retire from.

Yeah, exactly. Well said. Well, you told me again just offline that you know, as a founder, entrepreneur, from startup to exit doing your next entrepreneurial venture and that from software engineer and you know, that is part of your DNA also that with all these, you know, business and engineering skills and things that you're doing on a day to day basis, which you're spending a lot of your time doing is coaching. And you never thought as a software engineer and a founder that you'd actually be a coach. And so part A of that question is how does it feel to coach? Number two, and I think we'll kind of end here is what do you hear your say as a coach that you didn't intend to be but find yourself in this position? What do you hear? What type of advice do you hear yourself giving most often?

Yeah, it's a great question. So it's, it is wild, I think all the time, like no, I'm a software developer. My job is to build software and write code, not like be coaching people. And it really only came after initially out of necessity, just people. I saw people struggling with Contaxa all the time and I, we realized that it's not a problem with our software, it's them. And more specifically it's not them, but it's just the way that human beings are wired. So for example, reaching out to a past client that it may maybe it's been two years since you last spoke to them, there's a lot of social anxiety about it, right? You feel bad because you haven't spoken to them in a while. You think that like you were supposed to do much better, you feel ashamed because of, because you feel ashamed, your ego then prevents you from reaching out to them or all these things that happen. And so I find myself spending a lot more time addressing like that softer side of relationship building because I find that most people can very quickly know what to do, what to say, how to add value. But to answer the second part of your question, it's the stories in our head that prevent us. And so I spend most of my time asking people to become aware of those stories and then to realize that stories are just stories, right? This idea that, well, if Christine and I haven't spoken together in five years, if I go to reach out, she's going to think that I'm being salesy or she's going to be angry at me that I haven't spoken to her in so long and again, the more I realize if that's a story, I can ask myself, is that true? I'm like, oh, why? Like, she loses touch with people all the time too, right? We all, we're all busy. Life moves on, right? She'll probably be thrilled to hear from me or at least won't be like angry at me, right? That like, you know, that I'm reaching out out of the blue. Worst case, she just doesn't respond to a message. So the more that. So I find myself more and more in my own life and the life of my clients and the many people who take our programs. I ask them like, well, what are the stories that are holding you back? And the more you can become aware of those stories, the more you can kind of move past and through those.

Love that. All right. I think that's a good place to kind of come into home base. Let's circle back to where we started and go back to this relationship building. And one thing that I've experienced for myself, that my network really has become my net worth. And I think I mentioned I'm writing my second book right now and it's on real estate investing and how to buy rental properties because I've been very successful there. And in the book I was. And again, I wasn't. This was just kind of came out naturally when I'm writing the book. And I. It was an aha moment for me when I'm talking about building your network in the book. And realize like in my, like last three real estate investing deals, I'm still working with people. My 1031 person, my one that I use for personal, some for some financing, one that I like an attorney that I use. They're 25 year relationships. And it just like I was like, oh my God, like these. And I trust them so impeccably. They're looking after my best interest. You know, all the things. Like it just takes so much worry or fear or anything off the table. But again, it's like, wow, I didn't even realize that these relationships have such long tenure and. And we've both benefited from them. You know, there's a personal relationship from business and money. We've both benefited and it really just stuck with me. Like, oh yeah, my net worth is so much connected to my network previous and even new. So anything that you would like to add to that?

Oh, absolutely. I think you brought up a. And what you said is beautiful and totally plus one in many aspects. And if we were to trace back to that and rewind and think like, all right, for people who are just starting off building their network or and thinking about that, it's like, all right, almost going into any relationship saying, hey, I could be working together with this person for 25 years. And that alone allows you to start asking questions. Right. Where do I think this person is going to go over the next 25 years? Right. Are they ambitious? Are they hungry? Are they humble? Do I want to work with them for the next 25 years? Right. Can I imagine? And again, a lot of us go into this very transactional mindset when it comes to relationships. And again, a transaction might last a couple of months, but like, do I still want to be talking to this person in 25 years? The answer for like you and I is like, yeah, absolutely. Right. Or at least I would like to maintain touch for the next 25 years. And then that you start to act very differently. Like, this is now much more focused on, as the great investor Naval Ravikant says, playing long term games with long term people. Right. And even value wise. Right. I remember I was one time sitting down for coffee with someone and he was totally nice and friendly to me, but then a total jerk to the waiter. And I'm like, oh, that's a red flag. I don't want it. Like, I don't want to maintain touch with this person. I'm very glad in hindsight that he didn't. Right. Maya Angelou has this quote, like, when people show you who they are, really are, believe them. And again, those are the kinds of things that you pick up once you say, hey, I want to be working with people for the next 25 years and it's going to pay off dividends in the next 25 years. What could I start doing differently today?

Yeah, well said. All right, so for those that may be interested in relatable, a different kind of CRM. There's lots of CRMs out there. I'll put a link to it in our show notes. But why Relatable?

Yeah, absolutely. So, as always, and I've said this even back, Christina, like, you know, when you and I were talking and top producer was all the rage in the real estate industry and everything like that, the best CRM is the one that you use. Most people when it comes to building relationships are struggling to find the right tool that works for them. Relatables is a CRM that's much more focused on you authentically nurturing the relationships you already have, rather than, you know, kind of cold lead gen and things like that. So that is what really differentiates, differentiates us. And as I always say, like, check it out and if it works for you and helps you maintain relationships, awesome. If not, no worries.

All right. Well, Bea, thank you so much for spending your time with us here today. And it's so great to reconnect. And we hadn't talked in a few years and I don't know who reached out to whom first, but here we are together. So I'm so glad we did likewise.

I'm really appreciative of the time. And yes, I think, like this, you and I have had the relationship where, again, there's a lot of trust over years. And it might just be an occasional email back and forth every once in a while. And it may take us a year to like, finally get on a podcast interview. But I'm glad, again, shows the power of relationships that we cannot talk live for years, but then when we do, it's like old friends. So thank you for this.

You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. If you wish to learn more from me about financial abundance, business, and wealth creation, I invite you to check out my new YouTube channel, subscribe and receive weekly money education videos. You'll find me at YouTube.com hristinawise YouTube.com R I S S T I N a W I S E Otherwise, join me again next week for an episode of the Wealthy Wealthy podcast where I interview experts about the intersection of wealth, health, and business. Until then, live your wealthy, wealthy life.