Shownotes
We delve into the complexities surrounding the First Amendment and the world of AI. From family dinners to government spending, we explore a wide range of topics that will leave you pondering the role of technology and free speech in our society.
🗣️ Here are 3 key takeaways from this episode:
1️⃣ The Dangers of Government Overspending: We discuss the alarming national debt and the need for responsible budgeting. We shed light on the impact of excessive government spending, questioning its sustainability and the burden it places on taxpayers. If you are interested in fiscal responsibility and effective governance, this is a key takeaway for you.
2️⃣ The Intersection of AI and Child Pornography: Delving into a sensitive and complex issue, we explore the legal and ethical implications of AI-generated child pornography. We look into court cases, First Amendment considerations, and the challenges of prosecuting these crimes. This takeaway will expand your understanding of the evolving intersection between technology and the law.
3️⃣ The Power of Suggestive Questioning and False Memories: As we discuss cases involving allegations of abuse, we emphasize the importance of cautious and objective investigative techniques. We shed light on the vulnerability of children to suggestion and the potential for false memories to impact the course of justice. This takeaway provides insight into the delicate balance of protecting victims while ensuring a fair legal process.
Share this episode of Common Sense Ohio on from Apple Podcasts and Spotify and join the conversation around the First Amendment, AI, and the thought-provoking issues. Remember to subscribe, like, and share to stay up to date with future episodes!
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
Transcripts
Alright. Here we are. November 17th, Thanksgiving, right around the corner. We're gonna bring you the dose of common sense you need before you go into the chaotic non commonsensical world of family Thanksgiving dinners. And what do I mean by that? Well, all those people don't listen to our show, Common Sense Ohio, which you can check out, of course, commonsense ohio show.com brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting. If you don't know about Harper Plus Accounting by now, all you gotta do is go check him on his website or better yet, Go back and listen to the episode, what, 2 or 3, 4, 5, 6, hundreds of episodes ago. You can listen to us talk to Glenn Harper, who is the founder of Harper Plus accounting and, his philosophy on bean counting. And it's not just transactions, guys.
Steve Palmer [: ,: Steve Palmer [:And And we do that enough. We do it enough.
Brett Johnson [:Really, we do. I mean, that that takes care of 364 days, honestly.
Norm Murdock [:So Yeah. We should be thankful.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I'm thankful for you guys, honestly. Yep. This, like, I I love doing this podcast.
Steve Palmer [:Too. Yep.
Norm Murdock [:I I am. Right off the bat.
Steve Palmer [:And I'm thankful to Sarah Josepha Hale, who apparently is the godmother of Thanksgiving. She writes a letter to Abe Lincoln, I think, back in 18/63 ish, suggesting Thanksgiving. She's an incredible woman. Go Google her, which I did this morning. She did things like write Mary Had a Little Lamb. She was the, she had a of publications she was the editor in chief of. And, because of her, Abe Lincoln sent a letter and, or, sort of created Thanksgiving as a national holiday. So we can all be thankful.
Steve Palmer [:I'm not gonna belabor the point too much here, but, it's some interesting history, Norm.
Norm Murdock [:Apparently, Canada does a holiday on Thanksgiving. Obviously, not related to ours, but, apparently, other you know, I don't know what they picked up on. You know, a Viking landed in Newfoundland, and I I I don't know. But, apparently, there's a Canadian version.
Brett Johnson [:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Well, it's an occasion to drink, and We know our friends up north.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. So get drunk, have fun, and talk about the Canucks.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Play a hockey game. Did anything happen, in World War 2 on this date?
Steve Palmer [:I haven't gotten that far yet.
Norm Murdock [:Well, while while while you're doing that, I'll you know, just kind of bide time here if you if you want. You know, it's interesting. They after all the drama in DC, getting a new speaker, you know, and and throwing out, Kevin McCarthy. So, Ostensibly, that entire fight was over the budget process. Right? Yes. And what did the new speaker just do? Heat. Do you agree? Kick the can down the road again. The can down the road.
Norm Murdock [:So Right. You know, the schism there, you know, between this is unfair. The Neanderthal wing of the Republican House or whatever you wanna call them, which I would be in if I if I was if I was there. Right? Because, you know, until, Frankly, until the Republican Party gets over its fear of a limited, you know, brinksmanship kind of government shutdown. It embraces that that is exactly what's gonna have to happen. They're gonna have to draw a line in the sand at some point and say, hey, guys. We just can't keep borrowing money at the rate that we're borrowing. The dollar will become, you you know, worthless, And the percentage of the US budget going to service the debt is gonna be so large.
Norm Murdock [:We won't be able to pay for the military, for Social Security, for a number of other things. And, like, at some point, the $34,000,000,000,000 in debt has to be addressed, and the only way it can be addressed is through reforming the budget process. So, you know, I know they fear being blamed by the mainstream media that the 3 media that the Republicans once again shut down the government, but they have to fear destruction of the country more than fearing the media fingering them. Right. They you know, at some point, they have to really Get ahold of themselves and and just say, yeah. You know what? Go ahead and blame us. But but, you know, the country needs to be saved, and we need to We need to, stop the bleeding.
Brett Johnson [:Well and there's a time when they have to consider, okay. I've you're a countryman. You're doing this to save the country. Yep. Be damned if you're gonna get reelected or not. Do the right thing now because this is what you were elected to do. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, the the these jackasses. And I say all of them. I mean, I
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely. Right. It's like
Steve Palmer [:it's like a it it is a complete it it's crazy town. Right. I mean, it it then you seem like, when the car was accused of punching, I mean, the whole thing. Right. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I saw that.
Steve Palmer [:Then you got Gates jumping in in the in the charade, and he's filing ethics complaints. I mean, it's like, come on. Get you this is absurd.
Brett Johnson [:It's playground crap.
Norm Murdock [:It's you
Steve Palmer [:know what it is?
Norm Murdock [:Playground Really? It's
Steve Palmer [:like these guys are like the next generation. And and it it it's just getting so absurd Right. That these are the leaders of our government Right. And they're acting like buffoons.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, I like this new speaker as a human being. I mean, this he he seems enough. He seems good enough. You know and I'm sure the reason he did this CR is he couldn't get the majority of people because he is one of the Neanderthal Republic. He couldn't get enough people to back him.
Steve Palmer [:Well, it's the same deal that McCarthy was gonna cut. It's so stupid. And and
Norm Murdock [:It really is the same deal.
Steve Palmer [:Look. Look. Look. Republicans, you don't have the presidency and you don't have the senate, and you've got a very thin majority in the house. It's like, you're not gonna get this crap done.
Norm Murdock [:Just get 5 votes.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah, just just go do the damn job. Right. And, you know, McCarthy actually had had made had gotten some concessions, had done a decent job, and then we we go through this little, circus. Yeah. And now here we are back where we started after the circus, and these guys are punching each other in the hallways.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, a a a a lot of this is is It's so stupid. You know, they're terrible at marketing and packaging why they do things, and we talked about this about abortion
Brett Johnson [:You're right.
Norm Murdock [:Last week. This could be presented to the American public as an emergency. Mhmm. This is a one time thing that we're doing to shut the Government down until we can bring the other side to their senses and and communicate that, you know, in a In a message
Steve Palmer [:To their to their to their defense, though. They don't have the media at their disposal No. As the other side does. They really don't. So So
Norm Murdock [:they need to rush
Steve Palmer [:the bans. Is always blamed on the Republican. Always.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Always. Even if it's the Dems that are not budging, it's always Republicans get blamed. Right or wrong. I mean, that's just the media always Unfortunately,
Norm Murdock [:the mainstream Republican boosters, your typical, like, chambers of commerce Yeah. They all want the CRs. You know, like, The the people that you you would think would want budget discipline are like, yeah. Let's keep kicking the can down the road because they don't want any disruption Yep. In doing business with the government. Well
Steve Palmer [:and, you know, I guess this is a broader topic. Now we're talking about budget and money and everything else. It's like we I think our our country as a whole. And I and I'm gonna blame maybe the younger generations, the the last 3 generations or the ones and even mine to some extent. We've just gotten used to this idea that it's okay to keep spending money that we don't have. It's okay to keep printing money that we don't have. It's okay to have this absurd debt. And, you know, start thinking about for a second what happens when the dollar is no longer the gold standard in the world? What happens when the US, as I think it just recently had, our creditworthiness was downgraded.
Norm Murdock [:It was.
Steve Palmer [:It's like, look, folks. You can't live like this forever. You couldn't live like this at your home. So what makes you think You can scale it up and live like this at a global level. You cannot do it. We we can't do it, and we're spending money that we don't have for political, personal political gain.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:So these idiots are voting on and both sides are doing it. Yeah. These idiots are voting on crap, and and trying to cram their programs or, quote, programs and policies through, and we can't afford it. And they're doing it only so they get they they can just say who they're helping or what they're giving. I mean, issues.
Norm Murdock [:We need we need a reset of a different kind. You know, the the people talk about the Soros reset. But, actually, we need a conservative reset where people are reminded that up basically, during the years you just talked about, the last 3 or 4 generations, people have come to spec, and I I sort of peg it at hurricane Katrina. Right? Yep. Ever since then, it's like anytime a bad thing define bad thing any way you want. Anytime a bad thing happens in your life, people knee jerk now, look to the government to solve it
Brett Johnson [:for mommy and daddy government
Norm Murdock [:that are coming out
Steve Palmer [:of the way. Government sucks at solving those problems.
Norm Murdock [:They suck at it.
Steve Palmer [:You know, if so think about this. If the government is gonna fix something like Katrina or come in and and provide aid, they can't just do that. You know, they have to create a an entity Yeah. Of sorts.
Norm Murdock [:Of right.
Steve Palmer [:A department, a program. Right. And, a b mark. A czar. A czar. And then somebody's gotta be in charge. That person making a a year, you think. And then what's the right hand what's the right hand guy Right.
Steve Palmer [:To that person making a year? And think of all the people that get employed to write one check to a local state that could you could just write the check. Mhmm. Yeah. But you can't do it. So they create a whole another department that's got its whole another payroll structure. It's costing 1,000,000,000. Right. And and 1,000,000,000 to send the same amount probably less than they would have if they had just sent a check.
Steve Palmer [:And I'm not saying you should even send the check. I mean, look. If if
Norm Murdock [:if
Steve Palmer [:I don't have if I don't expect my parents to pay for my mortgage, and then I don't expect it. It's not gonna happen. I'm gonna figure out a way to do it myself. Right. This is like common sense. Well, it makes sense. It's Common Sense Ohio.
Norm Murdock [:You're right.
Steve Palmer [:Right? This just makes common sense.
Brett Johnson [:Well, you know and the one thing you you you describing it that way, the one thing the government does do very well, They build bureaucracy bureaucracy.
Norm Murdock [:Great at that. They're fantastic.
Brett Johnson [:That's a home run for that. Yeah. That's exactly that's all they can really do. For all
Norm Murdock [:of the bureaucracy, guys, There's no accountability. None. Exactly. So all of this money we've given Ukraine, it's a great example. Right? They don't know where it went. And you would think, where are the guys with the clipboards sitting in Zelensky's office saying, okay. You just got a 1,000,000,000. Now let's see how you're gonna spend it.
Steve Palmer [:So you think. Is it gross incompetence, or is there something more plain? I think maybe a little bit above.
Brett Johnson [:It doesn't matter.
Steve Palmer [:It doesn't it doesn't matter to them. It's I think, you know
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. We gotta
Steve Palmer [:do something. Wonder why they don't want sunshine on the problem. Right. So who like, If I'm running a business upstairs as I'm doing, and we're running a business down here in this podcast studio, and our individual podcast is a business of sorts, and Right. You know, I know where the money is. I know where it's going. I know what I'm paying for, and I know what I'm not paying for. And I have a fiduciary responsibility to both of you and to myself, if there is such a thing, to not waste money.
Steve Palmer [:Sure. So I'm not gonna go buy the proverbial $1,000 hammer. Right. Or the line item that has $1,000 when I'm really bearing an expense at something else that's costing a 1,000 that I don't wanna tell you to. I'm buying. So why does the government get to do that to us? Right. And and, you know, everybody everybody's like, oh, whatever. You know, it's always been a deficit.
Steve Palmer [:No. Bullshit. I mean, it it's No. We should we collect, like, I don't even know what the number is, how much we collect as a federal government in taxes every year from our like, you get taxed when you're born. You get when you die, you get taxed when you make money, you get taxed when you buy stuff, you get taxed when you you know, everything's a tax, tax, tax, tax. There's there's there's enough money.
Norm Murdock [:So I spent a little time with, my personal, Glenn Harper. Okay? And she popped up on the screen. The federal budget Annually is 6,000,000,000,000. We're in debt 34,000,000,000,000.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I mean I mean, the scale of it is Just
Steve Palmer [:it's immense, and it's getting bigger. Yeah. So, like, look, I we all we've all had to do this on some level. I mean, every every year in my business. I decide, alright. How much do I wanna spend in marketing? How much do I wanna spend on labor? How much do I wanna spend on paper and pencils? And, you know, what's my rent? And can I expand? Is it worth it? Is it not worth it? And if I wanna buy, like, a new computer, then I know that I don't get the luxury item that I would have had at home. So as a business, I was like, alright. Well, I get the new computer system.
Steve Palmer [:I updated all the Internet around here this year. It cost me a pretty penny, so I got to take home less. Right? Right. And that means I didn't buy something else at home that I would've. The government doesn't work that way. They just say, you're not paying enough, Norm, so we need to collect more from you, Brett, because we want this. We have to have it. It's a human right.
Norm Murdock [:Right. It's a human right.
Steve Palmer [:It's a human right to have an education. It's a human right to have a house over here. It's not I mean, I it costs money.
Norm Murdock [:I put it in terms that, like, my sons can understand. It helps me understand, frankly, you know, not not Talking down to my sons. But to to to create an analogy, so if you take 6,000,000,000,000 and you say that's thousand, and you take 34,000,000,000,000 and say that's 340,000. That's like a guy who makes $60,000 a year Paying off a $340,000 Ferrari. It makes no sense at all. It's you're you're so upside down, and it's so absurd. You know, how we got into this, you know, the the PPP program and Social Security
Steve Palmer [:It's done.
Norm Murdock [:Misspending and just, you know, military
Brett Johnson [:not even wanna call it a $340,000 Ferrari. It's a $340,000 Honda Odyssey.
Steve Palmer [:It's not even it's not even a Ferrari. Right?
Brett Johnson [:Not even a Ferrari.
Norm Murdock [:It's Some obsolete DeLorean. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:You know? But, no, I think that is that's a nice way to water it down to think about that. Yeah. It's true. Because we Cannot wrap our head heads around 300 people.
Norm Murdock [:To today? You must you must have something.
Steve Palmer [:Oh, we're ready for this day, and
Norm Murdock [:we'll work
Steve Palmer [:together. Better.
Norm Murdock [:Let's go from, you know, something frustrating that none of us can do anything about Yeah. To something, you know, trading that none of us can do anything about Yeah. To something, you know history. We can't we can't do anything about that either, but it's So
Steve Palmer [: re Thanksgiving. Yeah. And in: Norm Murdock [:Had a great radar station in Hawaii.
Steve Palmer [:Had a great radar station in Hawaii.
Norm Murdock [:We were all ready To detect, you know, bombers and fighter planes coming to attack Pearl Harbor.
Steve Palmer [: Yeah. So in: Norm Murdock [:And, of
Steve Palmer [:course, we had all the warnings. We had all the you know, like the foreshadowing, and still, we were just, whistling along. Yeah. And,
Norm Murdock [:And lining up the planes in perfect order so they could be strafed Very conveniently Yeah. At, what what what's it called? Hicks Hick Hixson Field or whatever the name of the Army Air Corps feel. All the airplanes, all the p 40 Warhawks were
Steve Palmer [:lined up. Look good from the air today.
Norm Murdock [:They look great, man.
Steve Palmer [:And you see those pictures.
Norm Murdock [:And Battleship Row was packed, Like, most of our fleet Pacific fleet battleships were were there. None of our carriers We're there. That's where we really lucked out.
Steve Palmer [:We lucked out a little bit. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Because we only had 4 carriers at the time.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, it really Mhmm. Like, if you think about it, the US did not wanna get involved in the war. Yeah. Or at least a part of us did. Some of us didn't. Yeah. I think Roosevelt was,
Brett Johnson [:Churchill was knocking at his door
Steve Palmer [:church on Roosevelt. If you read those correspondence back and forth and some of their,
Norm Murdock [:They knew we were gonna get in
Steve Palmer [:Sooner or later.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Say at some point.
Steve Palmer [:Sooner or later. I mean, we were funding it and sending guys over there doing lots stuff. But, you know, I guess it took it took that surprise attack at Pearl Harbor, and we had warning of it. And, you know, it it sort of wonders. I'm not a I'm no expert on this, but I'm sure the conspiracy theorists would say, well, either we were we knew, and we were okay with it because, they wanted us involved. I don't buy that. I don't think anybody wanted our guys to get slaughtered at Pearl Harbor. Or bombarding the house.
Norm Murdock [:Tenant who was at the radar station. State of the art. Like like, this would be Like, their version in 19 forties of Reagan's Star Wars technology. Right? Yeah. This was there basically wasn't radar until right before World War 2. And everybody, the Germans, the Italians, the British, everybody's experimenting with radar. And here we have this concentrated, field of bumblebee, you know, hits on this radar screen, And the operator turns to the lieutenant. I used to know the lieutenant's name, and, you know, I mean, can you imagine being that guy? And He told the operator, no.
Norm Murdock [:Don't call that into headquarters. We're expecting some b seventeens coming in, and and so that's probably what that is. And a guy's like, well, man, that looks like a bigger cloud Then 2 or 3 b seventies.
Steve Palmer [: ain, you can like, with with,: Norm Murdock [:They didn't know what they were looking at. Brand new thing.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So You know? Could it have been b 20 nines? Could it have been a fly Seventeen's. Or b seventeens, rather. It could have been a, a squadron of Japanese dive bombers.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Right? Could have been. Maybe. Maybe.
Steve Palmer [:You know? And and imagine a world where there's a Japanese fleet out there, and you didn't know where it was. Yeah. Like, that that doesn't exist today.
Norm Murdock [:No. We have satellite
Steve Palmer [:fleets. Is totally different. Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Like, there
Steve Palmer [:there was a there was a time when there was a fleet of enemy ships floating about the Pacific, and you didn't know where they were, or our country didn't know where they were. It's sort of crazy.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Oh, so if you think if you think about it too, that's a really good example of how many times have we been pulled in kicking and screaming into a war. We don't go aggressively in
Steve Palmer [:either state. Does not for the despite the Wokesters. We we do that. Part. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:We go and screaming going,
Steve Palmer [:oh, okay. That's a great point. Particularly what's going on in Israel right now.
Norm Murdock [:World war one's a good example of that too. We did an downturn again till the final year, basically. So the mode.
Brett Johnson [:I mean, not every example, but
Steve Palmer [:You're you're no. No. No. I mean, look. I mean, we did not even even 17/76, I mean, it it there's
Brett Johnson [:They pushed us so far that
Steve Palmer [:it has to. It's like it it it was a it was a reluctant Yeah. Yeah. Engagement for most Americans, I think. Yeah. 18/12. People were ambivalent about that.
Norm Murdock [:I think the Gallup poll done during the revolutionary war Indicated that only about a third of the American population was in favor Yeah. Of the revolution.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yeah. Just a bunch of the other 2 guys.
Norm Murdock [:Were like, hey. You know whatever.
Steve Palmer [:I'm living just normal.
Brett Johnson [:Just fine. The money's flowing from England. I'm cool with it. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And it doesn't affect me. Tax. You know? War. They're living off the grid, I think, is really what was going on. And then in 18/12, nobody was really involved. Nobody really cared about the war. And then Britain did something stupid like go burn the White House.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:And then all of a sudden, alright. You sons of
Norm Murdock [:And impress, sailors from merchant ships into the British ship. But even then, you
Steve Palmer [:know, the like, I think most of the country didn't care or weren't weren't directly factored. Now that I think that might be some has probably has a lot to do with media.
Norm Murdock [:Like, it it it Alright.
Steve Palmer [:You know, it's like you don't really know what's going on.
Norm Murdock [:CNN did not cover that story in 18/12 very well.
Steve Palmer [:You weren't getting manipulated by and ever present omnipresent media at that point.
Norm Murdock [:The most outrageous thing about Pearl Harbor that I think so you guys all know about these novels and shows. A Lot of people know about this alternative. You know, it's it's kind of a gaming thing, alternative World War two history. Mhmm. What if kind of stuff. The most amazing thing to me about Pearl Harbor, it was the reaction by Hitler in Germany. So, obviously, we were attacked by Japan. We were not attacked by Hitler's Nazi Germany.
Norm Murdock [:Correct. Okay? So they had formed, you know, this tripartite kind of, alliance, Italy, Japan, and Germany. Right? The axis. And Hitler, like, 2 days after Pearl Harbor decides, okay. Since America declared war on Japan, I'm gonna declare war on America. Otherwise, technically, we would not have been at war with Hitler's Germany.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. What do you think about this? Because I I know this history, and and Hitler, they say that was one of his big mistakes, but it wouldn't have been long. Right? I mean, we
Norm Murdock [:He would have done something.
Steve Palmer [:Well, we would have. Yeah. Yeah. Once we're in the war, we're in the war. It's like, what are we gonna do? Just fight Japan and not Italians?
Brett Johnson [:Especially when Access is there. Right. So you kinda declare declare 1 on 1. You count all 3. That's what an
Steve Palmer [: ah. And that was before Yeah.: Steve Palmer [:But, we woulda still had Churchill crawling up our backside
Norm Murdock [:these 2 to 3. You know how many members of congress voted against, The resolution to declare war against Japan?
Steve Palmer [:How many?
Norm Murdock [:1. 1. I mean And and she was the Democrat congresswoman that when he got out of the army, Richard Nixon replaced in her district. He he he ran on that. Somewhere in Southern California. You know, he was from San Clemente. Yeah. And and he he he ran on the basis that Harriet, I think, was her first name or whatever it was, That she voted against the war.
Steve Palmer [:How do how do you, in good conscience, vote against that? I don't even know. I mean, who knows?
Norm Murdock [:He was probably a Quaker, like he was. Know, he was a Quaker.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe she's a Quaker. Or she's the 1st original
Norm Murdock [:Just just belief.
Brett Johnson [:She's the 1st Karen, possibly?
Steve Palmer [:The 1st Harriet to Karen. Right. Well, we
Norm Murdock [:have a we have a pretty serious case that we discussed ahead of time. You know, and we're coming from this We're coming at this child pornography case, from the point of view of first amendment, almost absolutism that I think all 3 of us believe in. After all, we're on the Internet. We'd hate to be canceled. You know, we're on various platforms. We don't wanna be deplatformed. But, anyway, this child psychiatrist in North Carolina was federally charged, and tried and convicted and sentenced to practically 40 years in a federal pen For creating for his own gratification or whatever use he created it for. But he didn't distribute it.
Norm Murdock [:He didn't, He didn't, transmit it.
Steve Palmer [:He created it. He was creating it. He was he had
Norm Murdock [:created He created porn for his own consumption No. No. Is my understanding.
Steve Palmer [:Except he Didn't he have surreptitious cameras taking videos of kids in his house?
Norm Murdock [:We can get into how he created the point.
Steve Palmer [:But but I think egregious stuff.
Norm Murdock [:I'm just saying he wasn't a peddler. So it wasn't like he put it out there for other people or sold it or you know, he wasn't a merchant. He created child porn, and I'll just very quickly hit What what I think the the most interesting part of the facts are, to me anyway, from a First Amendment point of view. So he took pictures and video Primarily of children, in one case, an adult who who you know, former, patient of his who who later turned 18. But For for the most part, let for simplicity's sake, he took pictures and video of children and then used artificial intelligence, programs to, disrobe them, to to to make them naked, and, and to create montage or some kind of video or pictures, that were pornographic using their actual faces but not their bodies. And, I
Steve Palmer [:think he was also Go ahead. He also had downloaded some other like, he had he had a general cache of child pornography that he had downloaded and obtained in other in other ways. So All that is true. Okay. This is, like, the most egregious form of child pornographers there. And look, is there is there is there any other kind? You know, it's sort of like
Norm Murdock [:Well, people don't. Which sell off. I think they're even worse.
Steve Palmer [:They're off. Right. And and, look, I mean, people don't like this because it's unpopular, and I've even become I've been criticized about my thoughts and and, you know, I've defended folks who are charged with child pornography many times.
Norm Murdock [:Well, they're entitled to a defense.
Steve Palmer [:And and, you know Yeah. I I've seen categories of them. You have folks who are a lot of a lot of folks who are abused themselves as kids, and then they're somehow drawn to it. You have others who have sort of anxiety, ADHD, and compulsion issues, and It just leads like, regular porn leads to this sort of you know, it's like, there's no satisfaction. So you just there is no limit on it, and you sort of remove your own personal, moral limits like you might with an addiction.
Norm Murdock [:So, Steve, can I ask the Holiday Inn expert question? Right? Sure. I'm I'm not a lawyer. I went to law school, But I've stayed at a Holiday Inn. Okay? So that makes me an expert, I guess. So let me ask you my nonexpert question. The thing The only aspect of this case that bothers me, okay, is who's the victim, okay, number 1. Mhmm. Number 2, If a person would paint that or if a person would sculpt it out of clay or if a person would draw it with, magic markers.
Norm Murdock [:So he used AI, and he started off with actual pictures of actual people, children. Right. Right? And then he did not transmit that to anybody else, so nobody else in the world according to the facts. Or let's just assume these are the facts just to make it easier to talk about. He didn't share that with another child pornographer, consumer. He didn't put it on the Internet. The children never knew he did this. Let's just assume that's true, and it may not be true, but just for discussion.
Norm Murdock [:So what I'm trying to get at is, what is it about AI, or what is it about photography that is different than drawing it Or painting it or making
Steve Palmer [:a sculpture. I mean, look. This is all pretty complicated stuff, and I'll try to simplify it because it all goes back to the first amendment. You have a right of freedom of speech. You would say, well, who the heck has a right of freedom of speech when it comes to child pornography? And, well, I mean, it's it's like everything else in law. It all depends, and it's complicated. You know, this is the the famous Potter Stewart quote about generally, pornography is, like, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And then there's a case going way back to, it's it's, boy, I don't even know when it was. I think back in the 64, there's a case. It was it was, Miller was the US Supreme Court case, And it basically said it developed a 3 part test that talked about, would the average person find this offensive? Does the community find this offensive? Etcetera, etcetera. I'm not gonna go into nuance, but There's a 3 part test. And, basically, what that was is a test for general pornography, that that defined it, and it was a moving target. It was it's it's a terrible case if you if you believe in some sort of legal precedent because it it depended in large part of, like, what's acceptable in the community where where your where it is. So what's acceptable in in Ohio might be different than Hawaii or or wherever. And that's what, that's what created all sorts of problems.
Steve Palmer [:So then, you know, anybody who's followed the Larry Flint cases and, you know Yeah. That that that was some interesting law and stuff. But The
Norm Murdock [:prosecutor there being Simon Lease From, Cincinnati,
Steve Palmer [:Kempsey County, Ohio. Since he makes it big again.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Congress
Steve Palmer [:says, though, we're gonna make child pornography, obscene. You know? So congress starts passing a law about child pornography, and, they're gonna outlaw it even if it doesn't meet the Miller test. So the big question in, a case called New York versus Ferber, f e r b e r, was whether alright. So we have children depicted in pornography. Is that is that can congress outlaw that without violating the first amendment even though it may not fit the Miller test? Now how does it not fit the Miller test? I don't know. Go read the cases. But the idea is it's not pornography, but it's involves children. Can we outlaw it? And the court says yes, because we have to protect children.
Steve Palmer [: ch Coalition, I think back in: Steve Palmer [:This is crazy. But, you know, the the the premise of the Ferber case was that you had kids that were actually victimized because of the creation of it. And they couldn't take that same reasoning and apply it to a virtual because there are no kids that are victimizes result of the creation of it. So, therefore, there's a first amendment right to that. Now you sort of fast forward 20 more years, and you wonder how does this fit within the context of modern AI? Because even in o four, I don't think we contemplated the fact that you could virtually create something that looks completely real. We're not talking about cartoons.
Norm Murdock [:In o four, it would have been photoshopped.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You
Norm Murdock [:could photo you know? Yeah. Right.
Steve Palmer [:And there was a lot of it.
Norm Murdock [:I was, you know,
Steve Palmer [:I was representing child pornography cases when that case came out
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And this virtual pornography. Like, so if you had, like, pictures of young cheerleaders or something. They had to actually prove the age. You know? They had to they had to prove it was a minor. And
Norm Murdock [:I see.
Steve Palmer [:And, there was a victim. And so So then, you know, now when investigators get involved in these cases, they they, they, metatag images that get passed around the Internet. Oh. And, you know, at some point or another, a lot of those victims have been identified. So when it comes to proof in court
Norm Murdock [:Like a class photo that might be up on the Internet from a grade school. No. No. It'll show that that that face of that child is the same face that's in this Porn.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Yes. Or maybe it's like there was a yeah. There was a victim. There was a a movie generated or somebody some complete you know, use the right explicative, create a child porn with a real kid. And, that kid was identified at some point, And now those images are tagged, so they know that kid, and they can prove that that was an underage kid at the time, and it was real. So they can prove the case when somebody has that.
Norm Murdock [:And Like a non video. That would be a non video rape and abuse of a child.
Steve Palmer [:Yes. And it's not child porn unless you can prove it's a child. So at some point, most of those have been proven, believe it or not. And, you know, these are horrible victims.
Norm Murdock [:Let me throw this at you. So we know our mutual friend, Adam Barney. He's he's part of the munitions, law firm that, you do a podcast with those guys. Yep. I had, had discussed this with Adam yesterday. He and I asked him, how do you distinguish this? You know, it the how is this different than that decision? You know, and and what he thought is perhaps because this pornographer started and continued to use With his artificial intelligence, the actual face of an actual child. So rather than creating a virtual child, He he used photos and videos of actual children. Mhmm.
Norm Murdock [:And even though he didn't distribute it, they were then victims, Steve, what do you think about that? That might have been the difference here. Right?
Steve Palmer [:No. I think what's really going on is, and we can pull it up and look at it again to get the facts. But I think this guy was doing a lot of other stuff too. So I think he was also downloading actual child pornography. I think they found a cache of child pornography in his storage devices. They found that he was actually videotaping kids' tear up tissues.
Brett Johnson [:For a
Norm Murdock [:1000 minutes of time. Creation aspect. That's what's that's what's killing me.
Steve Palmer [:But he didn't I know. The bulk of his 40 year punishment
Norm Murdock [:Was the other stuff.
Steve Palmer [:Is for
Norm Murdock [:the other stuff. Is the other stuff.
Steve Palmer [:I don't think he was even prosecuted for this stuff. But here's what happens. At at the time of sentencing, and I confess. If so, everybody's listening to this. I know we've got names of listeners across the world now. So if I get the facts wrong, forgive me. I haven't actually read the Yeah. The pleadings in the case.
Steve Palmer [:But I would surmise
Norm Murdock [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:That, at the time of sentencing, what happens is we delineate this is where I started this conversation. So we delineate those. It's all the same crime, possession and dissemination of child pornography. Alright. So how do you decide what happens to 1 guy versus another guy? And I say guy because mostly it's guys.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Who didn't disseminate.
Steve Palmer [:Who did well, some do, and they don't even know it. So
Norm Murdock [:No. I'm just saying that all yeah. By accident.
Steve Palmer [:If you've got a peer to peer network download onto your or a platform downloaded on your PC.
Norm Murdock [:It could get out?
Steve Palmer [:It's going out. Those are dissemination. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, you know, how do you decide what happens to 1 versus the other versus the other?
Brett Johnson [:Okay.
Steve Palmer [:Well, you look for egregious facts. So 1 guy may have been in, what I call looker and deleter. You know, he just he's got this weird penchant because he was abused as a kid. That's mitigating. Right? I think anybody would look at that and say, alright. That sucks for him. It doesn't get him off. He's like, he doesn't get to win.
Steve Palmer [:I'm not gonna say get him off. Right. He doesn't get to win. Right. He doesn't he doesn't get a pass for the child pornography. Right. But it mitigates what should happen to him. Okay.
Steve Palmer [:And then you get dudes like this guy, who's a child psychologist, who is, taking pictures of, I think, his page I mean, just horrible, horrible stuff. Whether those individual acts were actually child pornography, They they they were certainly more egregious, and they warranted a pretty hefty sense. I mean, 40 years is a is a is
Brett Johnson [:a number.
Norm Murdock [:I mean Oh, he got hammered.
Brett Johnson [:He did. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And and look, I've never been to a federal prison, but I've heard that the they call them is what they would call them, child molesters. You know, they're not gonna be treated well in the prison. You know? He's in for he's in for a rough life.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So he's getting his due court. His due deserves here. And and So whether he was actually prosecuted for those sort of, AI created images and and, pictures that he that he made or the other stuff. He got more of a sentence because of the stuff even if it didn't become a separate offense. Okay. So Look, this is
Norm Murdock [:I think that's I think that's an excellent explanation. Given his occupation in his in his, his contact with children. Professionally, he violated all of that.
Brett Johnson [:Well, that sentence certainly sends shock waves through that career path. Like, you have access to these kids. Yeah. Get your crap straight. Yeah. That's right. So so, like, well, I think you're gonna go off on a on on another moment. No.
Steve Palmer [:No. No.
Brett Johnson [:You should say mind something on my mind's but if he if you're to create this, let's just say He did not still image it or didn't take pictures of real people. He created on his own through AI. He had a locked down computer that had no other access. He wasn't disseminating. Had it and it was all our AI or a cartoon, that sort of thing. But somebody found out he was doing it. Just happened to walk by, and they they say on his computer. I don't I that kinda goes back to my personal opinion.
Brett Johnson [:Crime.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I don't think that's correct.
Brett Johnson [:That's what
Norm Murdock [:Steve was saying, that that that would be different. I don't I don't Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I don't think that's correct.
Brett Johnson [:At all. Okay. But it's as long as It's protected speech. It's protected Speech. Okay. You know.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Under Ashland. Okay.
Norm Murdock [:Alright. So I but it looks like we're gonna speech is sick.
Brett Johnson [:A lot of speech
Norm Murdock [:of these people Hamas, you know, like, the let's kill every Jew. Yeah. That's sick.
Steve Palmer [:It's gross. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Right? Yeah.
Steve Palmer [: of child pornography between: Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And that's how he was able to create it. He took those images
Steve Palmer [:And did more with it.
Norm Murdock [:And then morphed them.
Steve Palmer [:But he already had them naked, and and So that's possession of in in Ohio, it'd be possession of minor nudity nudity oriented material.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I well, okay. Yeah. I because I don't, you know, I don't know All the nitty gritty. What I had heard about that shower scene was that that was a child patient of his Who who after the child turned 18, then he videotaped that person as an adult. But it was still a patient of his. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So and the trial also uncovered Tatum's use of AI technology to digitally alter I hate it when people split infinitives like this. To digitally alter clothed images of minors, transforming them into sexually explicit content. That's a different game. You know? I I I think
Norm Murdock [:That's the part I'm talking about.
Steve Palmer [:That's a no. Sure.
Brett Johnson [:But
Steve Palmer [:that's a realm that that the Supreme Court is going to have to grapple with at some juncture. And maybe they're gonna go back and revisit the Ashcroft decision. Maybe not. I don't know. I'm no I'm no scholar in that area. I probably could. Not not that it takes anybody exceptionally smart, but it would just take an attorney to go and do the research or anybody who's got a legal mind to go
Norm Murdock [:It's the AI aspect that Drew me into this.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. And and, look, it's been happening for years. So like you said, Brett, with Photoshop. So Yeah. We'll see. Fortunately, the guy seemed to be caught with other stuff, and that that's usually what I see. It's, like, the 1st types of folks, like, the the leaders, the lookers, the people who have got this addiction sort of thing going on based on their past or their own psychological problems. They're they're treated differently than the people who are out there creating child pornography, acting on it, wanting to have sex with kids, and heaven forbid, kidnapping kids and forcing them to do this stuff.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, that's a
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Those are and in theory, they're very similar crimes, but they're treated significantly differently. And they should be.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. And and they should be. And I don't wanna put on record,
Brett Johnson [:and we talked about this before we recorded. I felt really weird googling this stuff. I just wanna put on record just in case anything comes going along
Steve Palmer [:with it. With my legal search
Brett Johnson [:Just like, jeez.
Steve Palmer [:My legal search platform. So I because it's odd to type in a Google job interview.
Brett Johnson [:I had to go with incognito kinda looks like I just I just want it on the record. I yeah. I was doing research.
Norm Murdock [:Absolutely. Well, absolutely. Right? It it it's like, it's so, you know, you remember when the, gosh. Gosh. I'm I'm I'm forgetting his name, but the guy who put out all of that defense department information, you know, on WikiLeaks.
Brett Johnson [:Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:Right?
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Assange. Right? Right. So I looked at some of that, and I thought at the time, you know, I'm sure there's somebody at the NSA, CIA, FBI that's not too happy that hundreds of thousands or millions of Americans are looking at stuff that is classified. But since it went out on WikiLeaks, I looked at some of it. Mhmm. Right? And so but I did it under the same auspices that I looked at this. It's a news story, and I felt compelled to familiarize myself as a you know, I think I'm a journalist.
Brett Johnson [:And we're in the First Amendment world. That's right. Podcasting.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Brett Johnson [:You know, we wanna make sure, you know
Norm Murdock [:We are we are journalists of a kind. Of a kind. Yes. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. A nasty case, here locally involving a former Upper Arlington Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Coach. Cutler. Teacher. Yeah. Yeah. So There's a law that passed this year. If I understand this right, Steve will be all over this called Marcy's Law. And the victim in this case, the the this abuse, this rape and abuse that was, that is at the subject matter of this case, and this guy was indicted and, you know, and all that.
Norm Murdock [: ng. This all happened back in: Steve Palmer [:Mandatory reporters.
Norm Murdock [:Yep. She had to then tell the upper Arlington police. They investigated. And the prosecutors over in Madison County did not follow Marcy's law and apprise her of the fact that a pea a plea deal was pending. She learned about that through the Upper Arlington Police Department, not through the prosecutors over in Madison County, which is a different county than where Upper Arlington is located, people. It's, the the Upper Arlington's in Franklin County. This case against this putative rapist, is over there in in Madison County. And I don't know why if they're they're They're gonna plea deal, but her big problem is the plea deal is such her understanding and what the upper Arlington police said, This guy will not be on the sexual predator whatever
Steve Palmer [:Sexual offenders
Norm Murdock [:registry. Right. Registry. Go, Steve.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. I mean, look, I don't know the facts of But I've I've represented lots and lots of folks charged with these kind of offenses, and they're tragic when it happened. They are tragic when they're false. Right? And I say that because There are a number of these that are false, that that didn't happen, for all sorts of reasons, you know. And and when I do when I pick juries in these cases, I always ask. Let's see a show of hands. How many people think that false allegations of sexual abuse happen?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Mike Martin preschool. Yeah. Big one.
Steve Palmer [:And and everybody's hand goes up. And how many have heard in the news? Just you don't have to tell me the case, but has anybody here heard in the news of a story where somebody was exonerated after, like, you know, 20 years of of being in prison after a false after falsely accused of of raping a child. And, you know, almost all everybody's got a hand. Yeah. How many people think that the case they're working on at that time, that case, that the prosecutor, the caseworkers, the social workers, the police, the the jury, the judge, how many think they were getting how many think that they thought or knew they were getting it wrong at the time. And it it causes everybody to pause. So how does that happen? Like, how do we get to a spot where somebody gets falsely convicted of child sex abuse? And then that enters a discussion with my jury panel about all the emotionally, offensive and and and and overcharged, it's not the right word, but emotionally charged reactions. The scuttural, like, oh, what a horrible creep.
Steve Palmer [:And here's what happens. Not and this is not to say anything about the case we're talking about. I'll get to that in a second. But Yeah. Here's what happens. We tend, as a society, to permit convictions on these types of cases upon evidence that would not be sufficient, even close to be sufficient in any other type of case. So for instance, I had a case where a 5 year old or a 4 year old girl was living with her uncle at the time, and she said that a, a witch, there's a storm outside, and a witch jumped off the tree into her window, and, talked to her and said that her uncle is molesting her, and it went on and on and on. And my client was indicted on that.
Steve Palmer [:And that that really was the allegation. You know, there wasn't much detail to it. There was nothing else. And I you know, my my my opening statement, closing arm my closing arm in that case was, like, imagine, like, I can't remember exactly how I framed it, but it was, like, at the end, I switched it, and I was, like, yeah, and it's a theft case. Like, who's gonna convict on that in a theft case? Some witch told a young 4 year old that there was a theft. Like, it wouldn't even have been indicted. And I'm not saying that that we don't need to prosecute the cases that occur, but we have to be careful about prosecuting cases. Now, about Cutler's case, I don't know if this guy did it.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know that he didn't do it. But I do know this, these cases are treated seriously in the system. That was the purpose of my little diatribe is that they are always treated seriously. I've never run into 1 in the last 28 years that a prosecutor thought, no, no big deal. Just a girl who claims that she was abused by a teacher. It's like, of course, they're taking it seriously. Yeah. Alright.
Steve Palmer [:Well, then why then is there a deal? Why is there some sort of concession being made by the prosecutor. And I know the prosecutors out there, they're not gonna just make a concession because they don't care about a victim of crime. There's a flaw in the evidence somewhere. I I don't know what it is. I don't know you know, I I have no idea what it is. It might be that the disclosure was too delayed and it's not credible. Maybe there was a police search that's not admissible. I mean, somewhere, there's a problem.
Steve Palmer [:And and, you know, they if a prosecutor thinks that they can win the case in front of a jury, they're not gonna offer a pass, you know. Yeah. They like, it's like a poker game. I hate to say that, but a lot of what I do is like a poker game. You know? I wonder what their cards are, and they wonder what my cards are. What's a jury gonna do with the case upon hearing it? And here, I would I would surmise the prosecutor evaluated that question and had some concerns about their ability to get a conviction. Alright. And so they offered a deal.
Steve Palmer [:Now back to Marcy's law, which is a constitutional amendment in Ohio now that says victims of crime have a right to be at all present be present at every proceeding and have input and all this stuff. I hate it. I hate it with a freaking passion, not because I I'm not unsympathetic to not because I'm unsympathetic to victims, but because it throws a gum in the works of the justice system. Prosecutors have to be able to evaluate their cases, on the merit, not on the emotion. And when they evaluate cases on the emotion, 2 things happen. They may lose a case because they would end up trying a case like this one that they couldn't win. So the a creep or a a defendant walks free when he shouldn't on a plea bargain. He's at least or worse yet, somebody is wrongfully convicted.
Steve Palmer [:That's how wrongful convictions happen. Emotional prosecutions lead to wrongful convictions and having victims with too much input. Now, look, what is too much? You know, you guy, these wise old general assembly members and constitutionalists can tell me. But I you know, we're getting to the point now where I had I just filed a motion in a case. Everybody's heard of separation witnesses or at least most people have. So if you're a witness in a case, in a jury trial, in theory, you're not allowed to be in the courtroom watching all the evidence and watching all the other witnesses testify because you can then gear your testimony to what you've heard. You know, it it it creates some obvious common sense, fertile ground for bias or for witnesses to sort of shade their testimony to fit the evidence. With Marcy's Law.
Steve Palmer [:I'm not allowed to keep out victims from the courtroom. They get to watch all the testimony, which is insane to me. So I've got a case coming up where there are 2 alleged victims, and they both get to listen to the other's testimony.
Norm Murdock [:And and they're on the witness list.
Steve Palmer [:They're on the witness. They're both gonna testify, and they both get to sit in there for the whole time and listen to all the testimony. I mean, it it's it it it reeks of of problems.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Right? Yeah. But that's what Marcy's Law says. So when we were here talking to the cops, I think we were talking about, Megan's Law at that point. But Mhmm. Or Reagan Tokes rather, Reagan Tokes, which is a different scenario. But, you know, as a as a wise judge once said he was a he was a judge up in a in a bench in one of the counties, I'm not gonna mention his name. He just said any law that's named after somebody is usually a bad one.
Norm Murdock [:So Steve Oh, wow. Steve is a take home here. So I'm I'm thinking of this, so I'm not the parent of a young girl. Well, boys can be boys can be sexually assaulted.
Steve Palmer [:Happens all the time.
Norm Murdock [:Sure. That's right. So I'm just thinking of this, but my sons aren't minors anymore, but I'm thinking of what the takeaway is because this victim, this lady, and she's all over the news, so I don't mind saying her name. Essie Baird, bravely came forward. If all of this is true, and I'm just for Sake of argument. Let's
Steve Palmer [:take it as true.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. You take it as true. She said she did not go to her parents. Her father died before she came out of her therapy and decided to, talk to this teacher who reported the crime. And she's glad that her father didn't know about this because he would've done something insane, she said. But her mother is very distraught. So, Steve, is the takeaway, if you're the victim or know of a victim of abuse, you wanna preserve that evidence. You want you want to Get a rape kit done as soon as possible.
Norm Murdock [:You wanna seek, help at a hospital. In order for it to be credible And carry the day against the perpetrator. Right? Yeah. The thing to do as a victim is get help, Like, in real time.
Steve Palmer [:Although that's not easy.
Norm Murdock [:Otherwise, it's a he said, she said 20 years later. This is Like, this is 20 years later.
Steve Palmer [:This is very difficult. All the like, the the there are experts in the field. I I work with them regularly and the psycho child psychologists. And they would they would all agree resoundingly that delayed disclosures of sexual abuse, happen. And not only happen. They it has no impact on their credibility. You know, it's like you can delay for years years years and then make a disclosure. And that shouldn't, by itself, say it's not true.
Norm Murdock [:It's still true. Okay.
Steve Palmer [:There are some other things at play, though. When asked, kids almost overwhelmingly will disclose. So if you've got a specific ask so if you go to when I defend the cases, I try to get to the counseling records. So by and large, just counseling records or doctor records. And and my kids got the good touch, bad touch questions from a pediatrician. Has anybody touching you? Has anybody abused you? And and maybe the questions have to be more specific, but, you know, when asked, kids will disclose. So it is also true, though, that delayed disclosures can be false. And, you know, how do we how do you delineate the 2? I don't know.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. But, that's when the prosecutors have to evaluate case. The the strength of their case certainly diminishes by time.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Be for common sense reasons, like witnesses disappear and, you know, maybe, the Memories get foggy. Memories get foggy.
Brett Johnson [:You're 12 years old. I don't remember 12 year again, that dramatic of a instance You're gonna remember.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe. But it's also true But I'll tell
Brett Johnson [:you what your mind also compensates too. Right?
Steve Palmer [:They there's studies on this where they will implant, quote, implant memories. So they'll they'll see like, there's been studies where or suggested memories, like, of birthday parties and
Norm Murdock [:Well, that was the Mick Martin Preschool case.
Steve Palmer [:The counselors in
Norm Murdock [:general, they the McMartin Preschool case? The counselors injected scenarios into these kids, and the kids repeated it back.
Steve Palmer [:It's called suggestive questioning. So how kids are questioned by the authorities initially is critical to a to the veracity of the allegation. So if a young kid and the younger the kid, the more suggestible they are, where and and, you know, there's protocols for this that are nationally adopted, and Ohio doesn't always follow them, but there are protocols for how you conduct a quote of a forensic interview. And the problem is it's usually not the professional forensic interview that does the 1st interview. Right? It's usually a mom or a grandparent or a family member. Yeah. Or and a lot of times, in the context of, like, a nasty divorce, it's a mom saying, isn't your dad doing this to you? Or you know, and that happens a lot. So you see a lot of false allegations in the context of divorce cases.
Norm Murdock [:And then to Please the questioner.
Steve Palmer [:That's
Norm Murdock [:right. They're thinking, oh, I need to You
Brett Johnson [:don't wanna say no to mom.
Norm Murdock [:Well, I gotta go along with the red Little Red Riding Hood story.
Steve Palmer [:It's happened. Never been accused of sex abuse, but similar things have happened in my life, right, where Sure.
Norm Murdock [:All good.
Steve Palmer [:My kids will tell their mom one thing, and I'm like, no. No. No. No. No. Like, it's my ice cream theory. Right? They don't talk they don't talk like, she doesn't she didn't extract any information about all the fun times we had. No.
Steve Palmer [:Only the bad stuff. Right? So Right. Know, there's there's an inherent bias that we all walk around with, whatever it is.
Norm Murdock [:Yes.
Steve Palmer [:And that can impact the veracity of these allegations. The point is there's more to it. I'm defending a case now where there's, Like, these these alleged victims were, like, 5 3 years old when it began, and they claimed to have memories. And, you know, there there's studies on this where kids will remember birthday parties that never happened. You know? So they'll they'll have, like they'll they'll, adults will talk about birthday parties all through the child's life or I think I don't know the controls, but something like that. Yeah. And then when they're adults, they say, do you remember the birthday party where the horse was there and you had a birthday cake? Oh, yeah. I remember that.
Steve Palmer [:And it didn't happen. Totally figment of imagination. Yeah. It was a totally implanted memory. Yeah. So or suggested memory. It's I guess, like anything in law, it's complicated. Mhmm.
Steve Palmer [:It's It's complicated. But I look. I this is not to say I'm not empathetic and sympathetic to anybody, let alone this gal who's been abused. And Cutler had other problems too. He I know he was a UA football coach and and had some other issues. So
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know?
Norm Murdock [:No. I I think it's also important here to say that our system of justice requires a vigorous, incompetent defense because we don't want innocent people, being imprisoned. Yeah. I mean, I mean, so the role of a defense attorney like my father, like Steve, my deceased father, and and Steve here, You know, people will say, well, how and and this came up. My dad was a politician, so this came up in his debates against his opponents. Oh, you're defending that murderer or that rapist or whatever. Well, you know, have you seen To Kill A Mockingbird anybody? You know, like or have you read that book? Or do you know anything about at all what the framers of the constitution intended, both state and federal? Is that Not if you can't afford an attorney to defend you, it's so important that society will get you an attorney. Yep.
Norm Murdock [:Right? Right. And and and, generally, the more attorney you can afford, the better you're off.
Steve Palmer [:And your dad would your dad would appreciate this question. I do. When I do when I pick yours, I also ask this kind. Generally, I'll I'll ask this question. It's like, how many people here what do you think, if I if you had to pick the top question I get, like, cocktail party question I get as a criminal defense lawyer. People hear I'm a criminal defense lawyer. Right. What's the like, Norm, if I ask you, what do you think the top question I get is?
Norm Murdock [:Oh, I I think it would be, How can you possibly defend, you know, some scuzzball? Blah blah
Steve Palmer [:blah blah. Bam. Number 1. I usually do it, like, family feuds. Like, alright. A 100 people survey. 5 answers on the board. Here's the question.
Steve Palmer [:What's the top Right. Question a criminal defense lawyer gets caught
Norm Murdock [:up already? Cardiologist, how can you fix messy hearts?
Steve Palmer [:And you
Norm Murdock [:know And
Steve Palmer [:you know what my answer is to that question? It's like sometimes people also ask other questions like, how much to get me off? You know, it's like I get those. They're they're funny.
Norm Murdock [:Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But my answer is always, like, k. You know what? Those are the easy ones. Like, those are the easy ones.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. That's right. That's a system.
Steve Palmer [:Who thinks who has an idea of who what the hard job is? What my real job is? What if somebody's not guilty and have been accused. Like, then how do you then how do you defend that guy?
Norm Murdock [:Right. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Like, how do I come in here in front of you 12 folks with a guy I know didn't do it? Right. And and there, the whole way to the government is coming down on them with officer, you know, Jones over here and Right. And Trooper Smith from the patrol's gonna come in here, and all these guys, his caseworkers and police. They're gonna say he's guilty. And, like, how do I how possibly do I handle that? Like
Norm Murdock [:So, Steve, you've never had a case, I'm guessing, in the state of Louisiana. Right? So I think that's the only state of the 50 that has some remnants of the Napoleonic code where you have to prove yourself innocent On some charges. You know, the flip flip flop, what what it is in the rest of the country.
Steve Palmer [:I'd be curious how that passes constitutional muster. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it Which
Norm Murdock [:you know, to have to prove yourself innocent, well, no wonder they took so many people to the guillotine.
Steve Palmer [:Of course. Right? Look. And it's not just that it's Here here's the thing. This happens in 2 ways. It's not in sort of back to where I started. Like, nobody thinks that it's hard to get your head around the fact that anybody thought, any government official thought they were actually trying to prosecute wrongfully somebody who's innocent.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And that did happen, particularly in Jim Crow South. I mean, it happened a lot Oh, yeah. In the Napoleon times. And and Yeah. But but what you just said, like, think about how much abuse that gets. And I think this is where, as a broader common sense approach to government. Like, the more power you give the government, the more power you give them to do those things, and the bad actors can take over and use those levers as a as a mechanism to prosecute their political opponents, for instance.
Norm Murdock [:You you guys, wanna do a couple of, Ohio based stories?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. It's
Norm Murdock [:gonna be While while while we still have Steve here. Yeah. So there is, A house bill, I don't think it's going anywhere because of the politics in Ohio, but it's interesting that this has been reintroduced again this session. The unions are, it's called house bill 205, and all of the business organizations are against this. And what it is, It requires journeyman level training and certification like you would get in a labor union, for any, maintenance, construction, repairs, anything to do with the petroleum industry, oil, gas, coal, essentially fossil fuel industry. And I I'm sure nuclear is in there as well. But anything involving that on the premises of those kinds of businesses or utilities, you have to have this journeyman level thing. Of course, the NFIB, independent business, the American Petroleum Institute, the Ohio Manufacturers Association, the Ohio Chamber of Commerce.
Norm Murdock [:They're all opposing this Because it would require journeyman level training, which nobody can really even know what that is for people mowing the grass. Yeah. You know?
Steve Palmer [:This is this is
Norm Murdock [:Or fixing the air conditioner.
Steve Palmer [:A way to spend our money. Yeah. It's just a way to spend look. I I don't think the government should have I don't think the government should be responsible for mowing its own grass, for doing any of it, not even in parks. I think I think the better play, if a government's gonna own a park, contract it out to the builders, and get the best job. I mean
Norm Murdock [:That's right. Get get competing bids.
Steve Palmer [:Jay, the exchequer, always comes in and says, you should see the equipment that Dublin has. I mean, they've got brand new trucks. They got brand new mowers. They got brand new trailers. Like, it's all brand new.
Norm Murdock [:All brand new.
Steve Palmer [:And they don't need it. No. But they can spend. They then they get their bug. Better buy it because our budget's gonna be over, blah blah blah blah blah. We're gonna lose it if we don't spend it.
Norm Murdock [:More employees, more pensions to pay. Day. Yeah. It just goes on.
Steve Palmer [:It's lunacy. So put it out to the highest bidder and get this crap out of the government in the 1st place.
Norm Murdock [:The other one is this developing story About this terrible bus crash. Another Oh. Wreck involving a bus. So we had a a student killed, as a result of a, a, well, he was an illegal immigrant, and he and he did something, came into the, the lane over there in the Springfield, Ohio area earlier this year, and a school bus overturned this case that happened just this week
Steve Palmer [:and fall. I think it was Monday.
Norm Murdock [:It it was Tuesday. Tuesday. Tuesday, November 14th, 9 in the morning. Apparently, according to the NTSB, which is investigating, There was an earlier accident or safety situation, and they were slowing traffic down because of an earlier incident. When the 2nd incident took place, the deadly one where 6 people were killed and 18 others were injured, apparently, what it and this is this is tent tentative people, so don't take this as gospel. But, apparently, The SUV carrying the chaperones and the charter bus, which was a commercial bus, not a school bus, But, you know, your big Greyhound type of bus that was chartered with 57, people on board Going to an Ohio School Boards Association meeting in Columbus to participate. And and it was high school students, some teachers and some chaperones in the SUV. The chaperones generally aren't allowed on the bus with the students.
Norm Murdock [:So they're they're in an SUV following is typically the situation. You gotta be fingerprinted. There's all this protocol, and typically, parents are not approved to be with other students besides their own kids. So at any rate, the chaperones are behind the bus supposedly. The bus and the and the SUV slow down because there is some incident taking place, and apparently, quote, unquote, this semi tractor, did not slow down and rear ended the SUV and the bus, killing 1 person in the SUV and 5 people, including 3 students on the bus. So total of 6, deceased. And, I I saw the pictures. The bus Caught fire.
Norm Murdock [:The driver of the bus, quite heroically, with 4 bones broken in his legs, Still managed to open the doors, you know, crawling around in the thing, open the doors to let the the survivors out. So this guy was,
Steve Palmer [:IV. Remarkable. Remarkable. Right?
Norm Murdock [:To have the presence of mind to overcome his own pain and and do his job So people could egress
Steve Palmer [:all of that. Did anybody conclude what the what the element here of causation was?
Norm Murdock [:The NTSB says it's gonna take possibly, 12, 6 8 18 months.
Brett Johnson [:I'm taking a hold
Steve Palmer [:of weight. Funny because every time I have a case that there's an accident, they seem to know, like, right like, immediately, they'll jump to the conclusion immediately. And, look, I don't have any fault for somebody wanting to figure it out and get it right. I gotta hunt like, you know, at some point, we get to these the law of unintended consequences, the more safety regulations. Like, you don't have people on the bus. Like, I can't say that's like, not permitting certain people on the bus and having this and having somebody follow. Like, there's almost always adverse consequences to that stuff. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I'll be curious if there's an intellectually honest assessment of what caused this and what it was. I'd love to know. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to know.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Apparently, there's There aren't
Brett Johnson [:gonna many many people survive a a hip from a semi doing full board.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah. Right.
Brett Johnson [:I mean, ultimately, You know? It it just comes down to the guy just wasn't paying attention or
Steve Palmer [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:It it
Steve Palmer [:it sounds like the semi driver committed a distance ahead violation and ran into somebody. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:It's the initial gut feel that I have too. Yeah. The pictures show the the the semi is still square. I mean, post accident pictures, it's still square right behind the commercial bus, and they're both accordion. You know, like, the impact was super It's awful.
Steve Palmer [:That's super
Brett Johnson [:That's hope that when you see those things, you hope that those that passed away from it Yeah. It was instant.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You just don't wanna
Brett Johnson [:do it. You just hope. You just hope. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. So the the good news about the investigation aspect Is that apparently several of so there were total of 6 vehicles, 5 were in the accident, one other got some damage, another commercial vehicle. But, Apparently, the from an investigative point of view, if you wanna call it good news, is that there are Many of these vehicles, maybe all of them, have black boxes that have, you know, inertia data, you know, who braked truly remarkable
Steve Palmer [:what they can tell you.
Norm Murdock [:So I guess almost like an airplane wreck, these black boxes may may help tell the story.
Steve Palmer [:They will. They will. Wow. So Well, look. I got something to talk about, and then we'll probably wrap
Brett Johnson [:it up.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So as we get into Thanksgiving, We should be thankful. I think we've all started this way. Let's sort of wrap it up this way. One thing people love to do is spend time with family. It's I think it's a lost activity to go spend time with your family in the woods while hunting deer. And if you happen to have kids and you're interested and your kids interested in youth season that starts on Saturday morning. So youth season Ohio Department of Natural Resources, they carve out a separate season for kids to go out with their chaperones, hopefully, parents or somebody, a mentor.
Steve Palmer [:And they get to sit in the woods, so I plan on doing that this weekend with my son in the woods. It's sort of and awesome around Thanksgiving type activity. And then, of course, the Orange Army comes out Yep. The day after thanks
Norm Murdock [:or
Steve Palmer [:the week the Monday after Thanksgiving.
Norm Murdock [:So, Steve, is this youth gun?
Steve Palmer [:Youth gun season.
Norm Murdock [:Youth gun. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:So it's been bow season now for quite a while, but the rut is on. You know? Yeah. Everybody those those connoisseurs of watching, deer do crazy things in the woods, it's happening as we speak. So there's lots of hunters, lots of trucks on the side of the road. So everybody be careful out there. That's the that's the message.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, yeah. In my in my county, This goes back a number of years, but it's a farmer was shot off his tractor.
Steve Palmer [:Unbelievable. You
Norm Murdock [:know? I mean you know? Right. Guys And guys climbing over fences that place the gun barrel up. As they climb over the fence, their Their toe or something hits the trigger. Right. Come come on.
Steve Palmer [:I got a better idea. Unload it.
Norm Murdock [:Unload the toe.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Unload it.
Norm Murdock [:Honestly, guys.
Steve Palmer [:You know, it's like you're not gonna you're not gonna have to jump shoot a deer while you're on while you're climbing over a fence or going up to your stand or whatever. So, you know, we pray for the safety of all the hunters out there. I also pray for you know, I'm thankful for the opportunity that we still have to go spend time because you know what you're not doing in the woods while you're spending time with your son or your daughter hunting. It's like you're not watching TV in your family room, and you're not playing video games, and you're not staring at TikTok. Well, you probably could stare at TikTok depending on where you are. But, I guess the point is is, like, it's a great activity, and quickly, it's it's falling off favor in our society. So, you know, everybody be safe out there and, and, enjoy the pre Thanksgiving week. And and then the other caution I have is the biggest party night of the season is Wednesday before Thanksgiving.
Steve Palmer [:So next Wednesday, when your kids are home from college, and they're gonna go hang out with their buddies. Or if you're one of those kids listening and you're gonna go hang out with your buddies, Just be safe, man. Just be safe.
Norm Murdock [:Hey, guys. Have we decided we're not doing a Thanksgiving show or we are? What do you think?
Steve Palmer [:The Friday after?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:To be determined.
Norm Murdock [:To be okay. Fine.
Steve Palmer [:To be determined. I'll probably be here. Okay.
Brett Johnson [:I probably will be too.
Norm Murdock [:Okay. So yeah. Okay.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. So we'll see you. We'll be back next Friday.
Brett Johnson [:And did you hear that collective from the audience? Yes. Yeah. Thank goodness.
Norm Murdock [:I heard it. So we could talk about the Ohio State game? Will will that have taken place?
Steve Palmer [:Uh-huh. That will not have taken place yet. That will be the day before the Ohio State Mission
Brett Johnson [:game. Pregame chatter.
Steve Palmer [:We'll do a pregame. We'll do pregame or pregame pregame predictions. Yeah. So that'll be
Norm Murdock [:on Saturday following up. I'm sorry.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. That's true. Will they?
Steve Palmer [:You're you're not gonna go 2 weeks without Common Sense Ohio. But if you had to, you could still go to commonsense ohio show.com and check out our backlog of episodes, which are gaining a number every week by 1 a week. See that mascot. Doesn't that make common sense? So every week, you get to go listen to another one. If you think that, oh, man, I missed it, don't worry. Just go to commonsense ioshow.com. And while you're there, you might as well subscribe, and you might as well like us on Facebook. So I searched on Facebook, and, again, a ever growing followers and likers Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:On social media. You're right.
Steve Palmer [:After us, we got video. How about video?
Norm Murdock [:All of our friends. Rumble. All of our family.
Steve Palmer [:Rumble. Rumble, YouTube, Facebook. It's all there. See, we're we're on the cusp the cusp of taking over the world. Here at Common Sense, I'll come in at you right from the middle at least until now.
