“Shine. Don’t shy away. This is your setting. You own it.”

– Vanessa Dooley, Jigsaw Early Years Consultancy

In this special guest episode of Atelier Talks, we’re joined by one of the most trusted names in Early Years consultancy: Vanessa Dooley, founder of Jigsaw Early Years and the voice behind the Get Inspection Ready podcast. Together, we unpack the brand-new OFSTED Early Years Inspection Toolkit, which comes into effect from November 10th, and what it really means for Early Years settings.

This is a must-listen for any setting leader, manager or educator feeling overwhelmed by the changes. From principle one ("Achieve, Belong, Thrive") to the new seven evaluation areas, we cover what’s changing, what to keep doing, and how to prepare your team for inspection under these new changes.

In this episode:

• Why “Achieve, Belong, Thrive” should underpin your curriculum and nursery culture.
• A breakdown of the seven new evaluation areas and what they mean in practice
• What the new four-year inspection cycle and two-part call system means for your team
• Why the learning walk is being replaced, and how to prepare staff for ongoing dialogue instead
• How to speak confidently about your provision (without relying on a script!)
• How to keep self-evaluation alive in your daily practice
• Tips for reducing inspection anxiety
• Why inclusivity must be interwoven throughout everything you do (not treated as simply a box to tick)
• Real tools and advice from Vanessa’s new book, toolkit, and Impact platform
• How we’re preparing at Atelier 

Standing on the shoulders of giants

The magic of Atelier draws on foundational thinking from a range of influential Early Years theorists, consultants and thought leaders. Those mentioned in today’s episode include:

• Peter Elfer – for responsive leadership and the Key Person approach
• Elinor Goldschmied – for emotional attunement and care routines
• Jools Page – for Professional Love in both child and team relationships
• John Bowlby – for attachment theory and secure relational practice
• Driscoll’s Model – for reflection using the “What, So What, Now What?” approach

Find out more:

• Vanessa’s new book and toolkit – coming soon
• Get Inspection Ready podcast – on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts
• Get Inspection Ready Webinar – November 3rd @ 19:00 
• Impact platform – audit and reflection tool for EYFS providers
• 
  

And from us at Atelier:

Website and newsletter: ateliernursery.co.uk

Instagram: @ateliernurseryltd

Consultancy enquiries: Contact us via our website

Together, we’ll unlock the potential for incredible growth and learning.

Atelier Talks is a Decibelle Creative original podcast

Produced by Decibelle Creative – decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative

Keywords: OFSTED early years 2023, Vanessa Dooley, achieve belong thrive, OFSTED inspection toolkit, early years self evaluation, nursery inspection preparation, early years leadership, impact platform EYFS, early years quality audit, show and tell OFSTED, reflective leadership EYFS, early years podcast, Jigsaw Early Years, get inspection ready, nursery team training, nursery inspection confidence,

>> Clare: Welcome to Atelier Talks, the Early Years

Collective. This is the podcast brought to you by

the Atelier, nursery team, exploring the art and

science of early years education. We're here to

share knowledge and insights from our unique

research led approach. So if you're passionate

about early years education, you're in the right

place. Let's find out what's in store for you on

today's episode.

>> Vanessa: Foreign.

>> Clare: Welcome to Atelier Talks. Today we're going to be

looking at everything inspection. So we feel

really, really honoured and grateful to be joined

today by the lovely and amazingly knowledgeable

Vanessa Dooley from Jigsaw Early Years

Consultancy. So welcome, Vanessa, to Atelier

Talks.

>> Vanessa: Thank you very much. I love it when someone bigs

me up like that. So thank you for that. That's

made my day. Thank you.

>> Clare: Well, in our hearts, Vanessa, you deserve to have

all that big up because we first met m each other,

what, not about 18 months ago, two years ago, if

that.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, about that. About that. Yeah.

>> Clare: And we kind of just started via that little

Instagram message and I said, oh, do you fancy

coming having a look at Chippenham if you happen

to be passing? And you kind of came into our

nursery and you were hilarious because you were so

wanted by the team. They couldn't quite believe

you were walking in the door and you came in with

just this really cool and calm demeanour. And then

they, as they always do, set up the nursery

beautifully. The children were having a wonderful

time. It was like one of those dream nursery

visits, where everything just kind of falls into

place. But you, you weren't fooled by anything

that you could have pulled out and bluff because

you kind of, you looked at the depth of learning

that was going on, you looked at the children, you

looked at the interactions and that kind of the

Ofsted bit of you that I could catch as you were

doing your show around your eyes and everything,

you were kind of seeing what was happen and you,

the next day sent a really, really lovely email

that kind of then set off that professional

friendship that we've kind of developed over the

last two years that's now seen us come to your

leaders and managers, event, which Laura grew

hugely from and we took away so much knowledge

from. And then we most recently joined you for one

of your workshops at epop. So thank you, for those

things and the bit that I guess one of the reasons

we're here today on Atelier Talks was because we

were invited to be your guest on Get Inspection

Read, which was really, really, eye opening. For

us that we could actually do this podcast thing

and actually enjoy it and make sense of it and

hopefully share it with our listeners so that they

have a little bit of an insight into what happens

atelier. So we are really, really grateful to have

you with us today.

>> Vanessa: I'm. I'm. When you asked me, not many people. I'm

just gonna be really honest. Not many people ask

me to be a guest. So when you asked me, I was just

like, oh, God, that means I've got to put makeup

on. I've got to do something. I've got. Oh, my

God, what have I got to do? So when I was like,

no, I'm gonna do this. Come on, Ghost. I felt

nervous, which makes me laugh because, Beth,

you're, like, saying about being nervous. I was

like, oh, my God, someone's asking me and I'm

gonna be there. In fact, someone's just sent me a

message. Go. Good luck. Don't stress me.

>> Clare: Well, we think it's fabulous that you're here and

we hope to take you, on an atelier chat, all

things inspection, because we know that you have

been working really, really hard behind the

scenes. So tell. Tell our listeners who might not

have come across, Jigsaw Early Years Consultancy,

what you do and all of the services that you offer

and that you bring to the sector.

>> Vanessa: Okay, so Jigsaw Early Years was born nine. Nine

years November. Nine years. I know I don't look

old enough, but nine years November. and it was

born basically because I was a lecturer at college

and I was working. It was tribal at the time as a

freelance inspector. And I. As an inspector, and I

could feel that I. Well, I got told off many

times, that I couldn't give advice. As an

inspector, you can't give advice. And I was like,

that's not my remit. I'm. So that's when Jigsaw

was born. Trained to become a safeguarding

instructor, did all of that. And so basically, our

role now is that we deliver consultancy on getting

people ready for inspections. We've got an

inspection hub membership, which is out on a

monthly basis. we do lots of training as well. One

of the things I want to take from it is that we're

trying to help settings add impact into their

setting. If it's not great impact, see that it's

not great impact and what they got to do to make

it better, it's not that we're going to go in and

waver, you know, the golden dust and the sprinkle

and Go, oh, look, you're amazing. Because it's

not. It's focusing on. And, I always say this is

focus on. On. If you don't do something well, then

own it and go, we didn't do something well, but

actually we can, you know, we can make it better.

M. Yeah. And I always think about, when I came to

visit you guys, I questioned you about. Because

you're. You're the only setting I know that has

all age groups in one area. And I was. I, I. I'm a

bit. I'm a baby freak, me. And I was thinking,

this is not going to work, but I'm going to

question you anyway. So when you said about my

little head on, I was thinking, I obviously did

show that. So I apologise, Clare, for that

grilling.

>> Clare: I've been around the block a lot of, you know, for

many, many years with many, many inspectors and

lots of visitors. And I think we're really aware

of it as well. And we only last night we had our,

whole setting, team commitments evening, where we

bring all of the team together and look at our

commitments, what we're committing to the team,

what the team are committing to us, what does that

look like through the eyes of the child and

through the eyes of the family. And one of our

main commitments this year continues to be our

babies. And I think it's, you know, it's so, so

important that we never take our eyes off the ball

when it comes to our youngest of children, because

they are our most vulnerable, but they are also

our most capable and creative learners from such a

young age. And, what they have to bring to that

nursery community, if they say so, it's just huge.

But we also need to be really mindful and really

aware of their specific and individual and unique

as our very youngest children. and so I think

we're quite similar there. Our babies will always

come at the top of the pile, because actually, you

know, children grow up, don't they? And so we need

to get really, really early with our babies to

make sure that those relationships are strong and

secure, those babies feel safe and, that they have

the best of opportunities and environments. So it

is. I don't think you're the first person that's

walked in the door and went, how on earth does

this work? And can it work? And actually with that

disbelief of this won't work. And then actually,

when you spend time within it, because of the. The

thinking and because of the strategies and because

of the practise and because of the training that

goes on behind the scenes, it does work and it

works so beautifully, but it isn't something you

can just do. I think it was really interesting

when we were at EPOP and we had a really lovely,

really lovely bunch of educators come and join us

for our workshop. And one of them just said, I'm

just going to open the doors on Monday and see

what happens. And I just went, you can't do that.

You just can't. You can't do that. Team, on board.

You've got to get everybody tribing, everybody

thinking the same way, everybody asking all of

those questions and kind of really making sense of

what it is you want to achieve, because there will

be so many challenges and questions that come your

way. But. But no, we wouldn't change. It would be

a fine line between chaos and cosmos some days.

But what if we settled 52 babies this last month?

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: No way. 52 babies. We've settled this last month.

And I absolutely put my hand on my heart and say

it has been the best September we've ever had, is.

>> Vanessa: That you've got it right down to a T. Those

transitions and where they are and recognising

those, not just the child's needs. What I loved

about you guys is the family needs, and I love

that that's what it's about. It's not, you know,

we all do everything because it's about the child,

and we know that. But it's not just about the

child, is it? It's about the family.

>> Clare: It's got to work for everybody. And I think,

particularly with those very, very young babies,

where that might be the first separation that

family has had, particularly if it's for a first

child, the trust that they're building, the fact

you're still exhausted because you haven't always

got a sleep routine into place, the fact that

you're juggling your return to work and you're

going back to an environment that you haven't been

in for, you know, 9, 10, 12 months and how that

kind of feels emotionally, the fact that we all

know if you've had children, the. The change

within your own lifestyles, within your

relationship that you hold within the time that

you have for each other, everything's kind of up

in the air. So I think for us, this year we'd

really taken stock of the home visits to make sure

that all of those children had a home visit, to

make sure that all of those children had a minimum

of five settling sessions. So they were all

enabled to be able to really settle within the

environment. We looked hugely at the environment

in which the babies were being cared for. So

making sure that all of that sensory need,

emotional need was there, but also going back to

that, you know, that original birth to three

matters framework that looked at those tiny, you

know, you know, those tiny babies and what they

needed to feel rested and to feel protected and to

feel secure and that absolute sense of belonging

and that they've come. And it was so brilliant

because we had, Noah's mum came in and she'd made

a one cake and it was to celebrate the end of his

first week. And it was just absolutely brilliant

because like that M. I like that mum too.

>> Vanessa: It was brilliant.

>> Clare: Lemon drizzle. But it was also that way about how,

you know, it wasn't just about that baby, it was

about her. She had survived that first week at

home, but actually more than survived it, she was

thriving. She was enjoying drop offs, she was

enjoying being able to go for coffee, she was

enjoying being able to think about herself as a

person and as a parent and a mum, but also as the

human that she was. and you know, and Maggie's

mum, who perhaps didn't have the easiest of

settling, you know, we worked really hard to make

her feel safe and secure, but who came in with a

giant bar of galaxy and all of the cards and the

recognition. I think it's just been a real all

round effort from everybody this year.

>> Vanessa: That's really good. That's amazing because that is

no mean feat, those children coming in. I always

say, September's just when someone will say to me,

oh, could you come out and do a quality

improvement, improvement order? And they go,

September. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, let's do what

to do. Let's don't do it. Don't put yourself

through it. No. But you talk about the parents.

And that leads, on to obviously November 10, a new

toolkit comes out and the first principle,

principle one is achieve, belong and thrive. And I

will take. I absolutely love it. I, I'm, I mean

there are a number of things I'm not warming to,

but the, the top one, the principal one, is the

achieve, belong and thrive. And you know, we, we

say that about, for children, but actually you,

Clay and Beth, you've just literally done it for

families.

>> Clare: Oh yeah, there's always a box of tissues, isn't

there some biscuits ready to go. Parents are

welcome.

>> Vanessa: Grandparents. What can they achieve? Can they

achieve to get. Can they achieve that first week

of dropping their children off? Yeah, do they feel

that there is a sense of belonging and they're

being listened to and have they thrived and

flourished by the end of the. The time that

they're there? and actually, you know, I think

sometimes we focus on, you know, when. When Ofsted

will come out and put these new sayings or

whatever it is that's coming out. We. I think we

need to take it to the nth degree. And the first

things I would say is that first principle one is

put that in absolutely everything you do. Your

vision, your ethos, the whole shebang. Not just a

child achieving, a child belonging, a child

thriving, but everybody. And I think that's the

bit at the moment. I see it as principle one and

we're focusing on that bit and it's like, let's

not. Let's not do what it says on the tin. Let's

open it up and think outside the box. And if you

can use those, achieve, belong and thrive in

everything that you do, start using that lingo,

start using that language, stop. And even if it

means putting a blooming poster on the back of a

toilet door, start using that many a time.

>> Clare: I agree with you. There's a. There's some bits in

there that were a bit like, oh, hang on a minute.

But so much of it is what we already know is best

practise. And actually it's being really safe and

secure within our pedagogy, within our curriculum,

within our approaches. But, you know, when you're

looking at just those Achieve, belong and thrive,

they are under underpinning principles. And when

we look at that unique child, we look at those,

positive relationships, we look at the enabling

environment that all come before that learning to

develop within the earliest foundation stage that

underpin, you know, the. The early years

foundation stage guidance as it stands, you know,

when we're thinking about that sense of belonging,

those home visits, the fact that they had those

settling sessions, the fact those children feel

safe within their key families, within that key

person role is so, so important. But I also love

that bit about being valued, really valuing that

child and that family as a whole.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, totally. And it's not. It's. It's not just

that, you know, the child and the family, but it's

every. Every staff member as well. And I think

that's key. We should be looking at everybody do.

Are you achieving? Do you feel you belong? Are you

thriving in the environment that you are? And

actually, you know, it's those three. Principle

one, I will take to the grave. I love that one. I

think it's amazing. So we're done. Ofsted, if

you're listening, I like that one.

>> Clare: Well, let's see if they are our, last inspector,

actually, we were inspected. When were we

inspected, Bess? Two months ago? Yeah, Yeah, a

couple months ago. And I did say to her, I said,

you know, when we have the podcast, and she went,

I know, I have listened. So they are, you know,

they're obviously out there and doing their thing.

So, as you said, Vanessa Offset, you're

introducing this new, inspection toolkit, the

operating guidance. All comes in from the 10th of,

November that all supersedes the current Early

Years Handbook. So you, you're principle one to

the grave. You really, really believing it?

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: Just a bit of a summary about the two documents

and why this change is so significant.

>> Vanessa: Okay, so, lots of consultation, you know, the big.

Listen, there was obviously lots of things, and if

you didn't manage to fill in any of that, you

know, the consultation of filling in the survey,

shame on you. Because we had a voice and that's

the bit I would always take. We. If you've got a

voice and you've been given that platform, use it.

and I think there are a number of things on it,

that I like. Lots of things that everybody are

probably getting their, knickers in a twist about

because they're just like, oh, my word, there are

a few things. So the positive things I would say

this time is going to be more collaborative

because when you. And when we go and do our

audits, we always say to the manager or the deputy

or the quality leader, whoever it is, do you want

to come and do it with us? I always say this. Come

and sit with us, come and follow us, ask the

questions and let's have that joint conversation.

Now, when you, you know, as an Austin inspector,

you very rarely would you have done that. So I

think this one is really good because you're going

to have that collaboration and open conversations

all the way through, because if they see something

that isn't that's great, they're going to be able

to say to you, I love that, tell me about the

impact, what's going on, blah, blah, blah. But if

they see something that they think, do you know

what? I'm not quite sure having that conversation

with somebody is going to be so much better

because you're going to be able to say, and this

is the other thing that when we go and do audits,

something happens. Someone will say, this is, if I

hear this once I hear it 20,000 times. Oh, that

doesn't normally happen. And you think, yeah, but

it did, didn't it? That's. That's the thing. Do

you know what I mean? It can't, You can't change

that. What am I going to say in my report? This

doesn't normally happen, but this is what I saw.

You can't do what? I mean, it's like if it

started, if it's happened, it's happened. And I

think having that open conversation with the

leader, the managers and the staff on those

observations throughout the day is key. I think

then you're going to get off to a really, a really

good start because you're going to have that open

and frank conversation. And I would love. We

always say that, you know, shine, not shy away.

And I think you've got one chance to loon and

you've gotta go, you've got to go for it. You've

gotta literally tell them everything about your

setting because they won't know. They've never

been. You know, you say that your inspector

listens to podcasts, they will do your background,

they will do your social media, they will do, you

know, your podcast, they will do look at anything

that you're doing, they will go in and check, you

know, your websites and all of that and we forget

about that. And so that's the time you have to

tell an inspector, what you're doing, because if

you don't tell them, they're going to go away and

you're going to miss your chance. So I always say

shine, literally verbal diarrhoea whole time.

>> Clare: Literally. Yeah. I think I'm renowned, aren't

Beth? So, Beth, and I was just about to say, we

play an absolute team tag, because we know and I.

It's about, isn't it? You know, you have that

opportunity once every six years now to be once

every four years to really shine. And, we, we have

a similar thing. We say play, show and tell. Like,

you know, tell them absolutely everything you can

possibly tell them because they're here for what,

six, seven hours? And you missed six years worth

of learning opportunities, developments, training.

So you want to make that really happen. And I

think, I think I'm a bit renowned, knowing our

nurseries, because I also want to do it for, for

the nursery and for the setting, because we've

invested, you know, every ounce of time and energy

and love and passion and determination into making

atelier what it is, but also for the team,

because, you know, those inspections can be

daunting. And they can be scary. And so, you know,

I'm known for like tag teaming the inspector and

kind of following them through. And when they

introduced the learning walk, I was like, no, no,

no, no, that's, you know, that's not just for me.

I'll be with you the whole time. And we actually

had one inspector, didn't she, Beth? And she went,

I've heard enough from you now, now. And I was

just like, well, no, because there's still this to

share and there's this to share. And I think that

professional dialogue is so, so important, isn't

it? Because actually only we can know our

settings. Only we can know the context and the

stories of those staff members or the.

>> Vanessa: And your children.

>> Clare: Yeah, exactly. and what their starting points were

or the challenges that they've had or the

strategies that you've put into place to remove

the barriers from their learning. so I completely

agree. I think that's a brilliant change. I think

we've just got to be. We've got to be ready, we've

got to be prepared, we've got to know our settings

inside out and our children and our families and

our teams inside. And then I don't think, you

know, we've got nothing, we've got nothing to

worry about from that perspective.

>> Vanessa: No, I think obviously the other good thing is from

April 26, it changes to four years. I think that's

really, really important. I think it's really

important if from April, if you're a new setting,

it's going to be 12 to 18 months. 30 months is way

too long, way too long for us to be. You know, we

used to. Going back on the days and it shows my

age, but we used to have. And I remember her

name's Pam Miles. I have no idea if she's still

alive, but she used to come and visit me on a

yearly basis. And, And it was a social services.

And that's how she used to come to. Yeah. And we

used to come in. Yeah.

>> Clare: And.

>> Vanessa: And how easy would it be to pick the phone up and

go, pam, I've got a little bit of a problem. I

don't really know what I'm doing here, but could

you help me or I'm doing this. Is that right? And

she would go, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dead simple. But

actually we're, we don't have that. So we've got

to make the best of what we've got. I think the,

one of the things that I'm not too sure about and

it's Open to probably conversation because you

talked about your learning walk. That's gone. That

will go. And I, I love the learning walk. I mean,

if there is something about a, learning walk,

because I think it's really important that we have

that time for the, not just the manager to show

what's going on, but the staff in the room is.

Because otherwise it was all resting on us as

managers. Right.

>> Clare: When you were doing that learning walk, you'd hand

over and you'd kind of say, oh, Eve, can you

explain what it is you're doing? You know, where

did this botanicals project come from? Or actually

jama, you know, talk, you know, could you share

with us what's the learning that's happening for

this little one at the moment? And you give the

pointers so they could actually really give that

narrative back to the inspector. But do you think

m. That learning walk will almost be more extended

into that professional dialogue? Because that's

how I've interpreted it.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, I think so. I think on this. So there's

going to be two calls, one before 10:00am, which

is great because then it's not always a lunch time

because that used to be the real bugbear of me.

You know, how many babies are crying at lunchtime.

Right. I don't care what anyone says, there's

always a baby crying. Always, always. and then

there will be a conversation via video, or maybe

not, because that can be quite tricky. I don't

know how inspectors are going to be doing it

during the, at the, in the afternoon, just to

literally talk about what's going on your

curriculum or almost sowing the seed. But I just

feel it's really, you need to be able to see it.

And that's the bit I struggle with. And I think I,

I, I. What I do hope is that when they come out,

settings still do show them around and introduce

them to the staff team. I do think that's really

important. And go. It doesn't have to be, you

know, long, like a learning walk. It just says,

let me just take you around, show you, introduce

you to the team. Because actually that's going to

help your team's well being is when an inspector

just comes in and everyone freezes. I've been

there, I've been the other side and I've been that

side and they, they freeze and they go, oh my God.

I don't know what to say. She's gonna look at. And

you know, you've got that apprentice who doesn't

make eye contact with you. You Know the one and

you're just like I really need to have that two

way conversation and that collaboration. So I

think I would like to think that the settings

would say if anyone's listening to say I really

want to show you around. I want to introduce you

to the team, I want to introduce the children to

you. And I do think as well, you know, maybe take

a photo and, and the day before ask for a photo

and just say, look, we this to the children. This

is who we've got. We've got visitor tomorrow. Look

who our visitor is. I just think that would make

it so much easier on that transitions for those

children and staff rather than wham, bam, that's

the way I see it. So I And the other thing, you

know, because I've literally. But I can talk

anything about this. I'm so sorry.

>> Clare: No, we love. That's why you're here.

>> Vanessa: So I have literally, since epop, I have literally

read digested post it noted. I've literally

dissected every one of those documents like you

wouldn't believe every one of them. And I've gone

back and I've highlighted, you know, we like a bit

of a post it note as I can see best behind us. So

that's good.

>> Clare: Thank you, Beth.

>> Vanessa: I've even got new highlighters. I was like, I am

going to be my nursery all out. Totally. I'm like,

I'm owning this. This is, this is it. and I just,

I, I feel like the learning walk I do when I read

it and I thought, right, let's think on the other

foot. I'm a bit miffed that it's taken away

because there's our chance to shine and show

everybody. However, on the other foot, how many

settings that I use, I go to or used to go to or

still go to where they go, I've got a script. Can

I take the script? And I was, I could never say

no. But for me you're not given that natural flow

when you've got a script. It's almost like I want

to make sure I say this, this, this, this and

this. And that's the bit where I was like, if you

had that conversation like you said throughout the

day, Clare, hopefully you wouldn't have that.

You've got that natural conversation, which I

love.

>> Clare: But do you think, you know, the, the need for

educators, for owners, for managers to have that

script has come out of that fear, of the

inspection process and you know, and what I love

about your podcast is, you know, it's about taking

away that inspection anxiety and really gaining

that confidence about our settings and about our

practise, about our provision to really shine and

to really show and tell.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, I think it is really important to, to

showcase. Showcase. But one of the things I want

to say is when you say showcase is actually be

realistic. So, for example, and I'm going to say

use you as an example because, like you were

saying you had 51 families or whatever coming in

for September and it was amazing. But if it didn't

go amazing, it's almost reflecting on that and

going, what can we do? You know, the what, the so

what and the now what? Which I say all the time,

what is it that you're going to do now to make it

better? But it's always almost saying to that

inspector, well, you know, we've had a really

rough time, September, all these babies coming in,

they're all around nine, 10 months, they don't

want to leave their families, blah, blah, blah,

blah. But what we've done is we've looked at that

and now we're going to go, right, this is what

we're going to do to make it better. rather than

going, oh, it was all hunky dory. Because that's

not real.

>> Clare: Yeah, we always say that as well with our

managers, don't we? You know, it's okay. You can

be outstanding without being outstanding as long

as you know what it is. That's not right. And,

what you're doing about it.

>> Vanessa: It'S when you hide about it. Yeah.

>> Clare: Having that real deep awareness of your setting

and knowing what it is you're working towards

achieving, you know, what are the, you know, what

are you putting into place to get to that next

level?

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: I think it's so, so important to recognise that,

you know, no matter what our inspection grading

has ever been, we've. We don't all of a sudden

stop. We don't stop working, we don't stop looking

to improve, we don't look to kind of stop to look

to develop.

>> Vanessa: Well, you might the day after. Because the day

after is a right event. Hangover. Right. You know

what?

>> Clare: I always find the day after a bit like when the

party's over.

>> Vanessa: Hangover.

>> Clare: and then I really cross because I remember all of

the things I wanted to say and all of the things I

wanted to do. And I remember we had this business

coach one year and we'd just been inspected in

Bath and we had the most beautiful, beautiful

inspection and she was such a lovely inspector. I

Felt like we really owned that inspection, but I

felt we deserved our grading because she

challenged us and she challenged our thinking and

she really wanted us. It was a proper professional

dialogue between the two of us.

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: The end of it. She said, this was the most well

deserved, outstanding I've ever given.

>> Vanessa: Oh, it gives me goosebumps.

>> Clare: I m felt so, so proud. And then the next day,

purely by chance, we had this business coach come

in and, you know, he was like, ah. Oh, that's

amazing. Well done. And I went, yeah, but I still,

I still wanted this, or I still wanted a bit more,

or I still. And I think it's that bit where we

just give ourselves such a hard time when what we

do and what we believe in is the highest level of

quality and care. We can always see what the next

thing we can do or the next thing we can grow into

or the next service we can develop is.

>> Vanessa: And I think that's everything that we do. I do

that. Like, for epop, this year, we. Yesterday we

had our strategy day and we were like, this year

was the best epoch. We've been doing it for seven

years. It was the best one we've ever done. But

inside me, I'm going, yeah, but what can we do to

make it better? Yeah, and. And like, next year

we're going, right? We're going Carnival mode. I

mean, come on, how big? I'm like below a festival.

We're Carnival, we're Rio in the Garden. We're

literally on it like you wouldn't believe. So I'm

like, why can't I just not rest and go, do you

know what, what we do is great, let's do it. I

know, but you don't, right? No.

>> Clare: And that's what he said to me. He said, you just

give yourself a really hard time. And I don't know

if it's an early years thing, I don't know if it's

a leadership thing, I don't know if it's a

personal thing, but it's just, just so hard, isn't

it, when you have just those six or seven hours

and somebody's coming in the door to judge

everything that you've worked so hard on. and I

think it's, you know, it's going to be really

interesting to see how this new inspection process

kind of pans out in terms of that stress level or

in terms of that anxiety level and trying to take

that away from. From providers and from owners and

managers.

>> Vanessa: I think the thing as well is that, you Know, the

whole point is to take the one word judgement out

of it and I'm not really sure how that's going to

go because obviously reading stuff and digesting

and breaking it down and I think going for green,

I love green. You can tell I love green. Green's

the gold, you know, go for the green. The expected

standard is green. Go for the green. And that's

what you need to be doing. But actually now we've

got seven areas that are under, seven evaluation

areas. So actually if any of those areas is

orange, so below the, you know, the needs

attention, that means your inspection is another

12 months, another full inspection. That's not

your four years, just one of them. And I think

that to me is the, is the bit I don't like. I've

got some settings that are over 100 places and

they've got six or seven rooms. It's the

consistency, you know, the, for a fact that you

can have it amazing in one room and I know you're

all one room, but you could have it one amazing

one room and then in the other room you'll be

going, what happened? But that one room will

actually, that could actually downgrade to that

bit. And it's not grading, but it could actually.

I mean, I'm doing colours now because I love the

colours anyway, so I'm like, if I knew, if I went

on the report card, I'm not going to look at all

the greens I'm going to look at. Which is why

impacts came in, right, because of the rag. I'm

looking at the red and the ambers going, no, no,

no, that's not happening. That's not happening. I

don't, I don't want that. And so I just think

that's really tricky. It's a bit, that's the bit

I'm not too sure about. And I think we may end up

having way more inspections than we really would

like. But we have to think about. It's all about

the child. And that's the bit it. But you know,

you know what it's like. You've, you only need a,

a setting that's got 40 odd staff.

>> Clare: How can you have consistency? But I think the

thing is, it's also about that embeddedness, isn't

it? You know, actually if you, if you have a

diverse team that are going to be joining you all

with their own different starting points or with

their different qualification levels or with their

different levels of experience, you know,

everybody's going to be starting their journey

with you. At a different point. So, actually, when

you're looking, looking at consistency and you're

looking at 40 staff, how is that even possible?

Regardless of whether they're working in different

rooms or in different floors or in actual, you

know, different sections of the building, it's

about how do you bring together your values and

your aims and your pedagogy and your philosophy,

so everybody's knowing what you're striving for,

but actually, then, as leaders and managers, being

aware of those staff that might have just joined

you, or being aware of those staff who might find

articulating their practise slightly harder, or

being aware of actually, the dynamics of the

children in one space that are going to prove a

little bit more challenging. And we know that

we've had massive issues with retention, we've had

massive issues in terms of funding to then be able

to release staff to upskill and train, because

actually you have there to backfill and cover

them. But we've also got a threshold of needs that

is increasing in terms of our children, whereas at

the same time, the semper on the high needs block

is reducing in what's available to be able to

support them. So I think, I think you're right.

It's going to be really tough across those seven

evaluation areas not to be having more and more

inspections. I completely agree with you.

>> Vanessa: Yeah. I mean, I can see it's a good thing on one

hand, because we want to make sure that it's the,

standard that we want the expected standard. We

want everybody to be on the expected standard and

we all strive. I mean, when I was group manager,

we had six outstanding settings and if any

inspector ever said questioned me, I was like, no,

I'm going to have you. I'm. I'm going to prove to

you why we're outstanding. Don't mess with me. I

remember my boss going to me, vanessa, could you

just. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what's

happening here, I'm telling you. but it's, it's. I

just think it's going to be. And I think, you

know, we really do focus on, you know, the. We're

going to look at it and going and going. I want to

be exceptional. And it's just like, well, just

focus, focus, focus on the green guys, focus on

the standards, make sure that you get that all

covered. So whatever extra that is a bonus, don't

go there. Let's be realistic. Because seven areas

to get, that's tricky. I mean, we're never going

to be like that, seven areas. And I think. And

then, you know, that I. I know the whole point of

not having that whole one, word judgement. But I

don't know, I. I still like the judgement one

word. I don't. Whatever the word is, I still like

it, if I'm honest with you, because I just think

it's. I'm going to look at that report garden and

go, if it's orange, where are we? You know,

whichever area it's going to be, I'm not going to

want to see an orange, am I?

>> Clare: But I think it's so hard, isn't it? Because, you

know, we're saying that we're moving away from

that one word, judgement, but actually we. We kind

of only really sidestepped, haven't we? We've gone

from an outstanding to an exceptional or, you

know, to an inadequate to an urgent improvement.

And it's. It's kind of reading between what's

going to be a huge amount of work in terms of. For

the inspector themselves, in terms of training

delivery and then, you know, doing all of their

quality assurance within that first cohort is

going to be huge, I would imagine. But then the

fallout for the settings, for the local

authorities, for the training and providers for

people like you who are out there supporting

everybody in the sector. So, in terms of the

scales and the new gradings, I think we probably

agree with. There's a little bit left there to be

desired. Do you think, what card as a whole will

achieve what it was set out to, from both the

parents perspective and the provider's

perspective, in terms of trying to reduce that

level of stress from the settings, but also be

more informative to parents?

>> Vanessa: personally and honestly, I'm not sure parents look

at it. I don't think parents go and look. I mean,

I look at Ofsted reports because that's my job,

and I basically breathe them and read them and

that's what I do. But I do not think. And, my

children went to nursery, but, you know, because I

worked as a nursery nurse in the hospital, I never

looked at their Ofsted report. I just saw it was a

nursery on site for the hospital where I worked

at, and I don't think many parents. So when

they're. When Ofsted are saying this is what

parents want, wanted, I wonder, maybe there is a,

statistics on it and analytical stuff that I've

not digested probably yet. So, yeah, I wonder how.

What's the percentage of that? I don't know about

that one.

>> Clare: I think you're right. There's so much in it, isn't

there, in terms of parents, when they're looking

for a setting and even for a school, actually, you

know, whether it's a childminder, whether it's a

nursery setting, whether it's a pack away, you

know, what they want to do is go in and get a

feel. How are those staff engaging? What's the

energy like, what are the noise levels like, what

are the resources like, how is behaviour

supported? And actually, you know, as a mum, I

just wanted to know that somebody was going to

love them. Yeah. And actually somebody was going

to look after them. Beth, I loved that story you

told me about Dennis and his child. Mind you, were

you. I don't know if. Are you all right if I share

it? Yeah. I don't know what story you're saying,

but yeah.

>> Vanessa: Beth looks horrified.

>> Clare: You came off your phone and we'd arrived at

Chippenham, we'd come across from Bath and you

came off your phone and your childminder had

messaged you to ask if it was okay to take him to

the Morrisons Cafe for his tea.

>> Vanessa: Oh, yeah.

>> Clare: And I just remember going, oh, my gosh, isn't that

gorgeous? And I know we've got all of the DfE

nutritional guidance. I know that for the majority

of our children we're cooking home cooked, chef

inspired, beautiful nutritional food. But how

gorgeous that she just wanted to take him to the

cafe and she have that interaction with him. He

wanted to be able to experience a different

environment, and participate in the choosing and

the menu options and the purchasing and the social

interaction that kind of came with it. And I think

it's just so important, isn't it, that we don't

lose sight of everything that can be created

behind the scenes of an evaluation process?

>> Vanessa: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think the thing is as

well, when you look at the toolkit, you know,

we've got that principle, one that achieve, belong

and thrive. You know, none of that inspection

toolkit, does it say anything about the three

eyes. But that's not to say that we're taking them

out, because that's not. We carry on doing it. In

fact, I almost think a cheap along and thrive is

actually a better word of saying those three eyes.

If I'm honest with you, that's how I feel. But the

other words, someone messaged me, because

obviously we have a lot of social media on TikTok

and Instagram and someone said, does this mean

that cultural capital has been taken out?

>> Clare: No.

>> Vanessa: And that's where my best. When I was saying, you

were saying about the child, that childminder,

she's given experiences, when we're working, we

don't have time to do, but she's given him that

experience of going to that cafe. It's almost

going to a bus. I'd never have taken my children

on a bus. I'm like, if I did, I'd be like, don't

touch anything, don't put your head on the back,

don't, don't, don't stick your hands underneath

the seat. But if my child minder said to me, I'd

like to take them to Rumsey on the bus, I'd be

like, crack on, go for it. Yeah, but that's the

thing where we. Because we're not seeing it and

this is what we do with only years, because it's

not in black and white, we're thinking we're

taking it out. That's not the case. We're

enhancing it. That's being inclusive. That's

interwoven the golden thread through the whole

toolkit. That's what we're doing. We're not taking

out. Don't think. It's almost like when Ofsted

said that we don't need to do our ceph. You know

that 29, 000 page document that we all had to fill

in?

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> Vanessa: Ah, yeah. And as an inspector, you had to print it

out and highlight it and find your lines of

inquiry and all of that. That would have killed

me. But we never stopped self evaluating, ever. We

just, didn't need to put it on the portal. And

that's the problem. Because these people say we go

Ofsted. I've not mentioned it. Yeah. And that's

where we become a cropper. that is the bit, don't

ever stop doing what you feel is the right thing

to do for those children.

>> Clare: Oh, I feel so pleased to hear that because we had

last night our, our tribe, didn't we? And our,

commitments that we put together for the team and

we, that was exactly what we said. This is the

year that we just focus on doing everything we say

we do to the best we can do it. And actually

really, really embedding all of that. And when you

think, you know, there's such a massive change on

the political landscape, isn't, there with the

school based nurseries, with the maintained

nursery schools, pitting against the PVIs, with

the child mind just being left out against the

nurseries. It's incredibly challenging. And I just

said to the team last night, we know what we do is

absolutely brilliant and what we know what we do

is the best for the children. And so actually all

we're going to do this year is do it, but do it

even better. So no changes, just really do it to

the best of our ability.

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: So when we talked about that inclusion threading,

then, Vanessa. So we've got these seven evaluation

areas. Safeguarding, inclusion, curriculum,

teaching, achievement, behaviour, attitudes,

children's welfare and wellbeing. And then we get

the leadership and government comments. Where.

Where do we start? Where do we start unpicking?

this toolkit. Because Beth and Lucy and I sat in

the office yesterday and we started our little bit

of evidence trail and we actually.

>> Vanessa: Did.

>> Clare: We. I need to apologise because we actually did

joke about you, because we said, oh, my God, we

need Vanessa tomorrow. And she's just made this

brilliant, brilliant platform of impact. And here

I am making a paper table.

>> Vanessa: I know, I know. it's on there.

>> Clare: Impact.

>> Vanessa: The.

>> Clare: In the.

>> Vanessa: The literally inspection toolkit audit. I've done

it for you. It is on there, but I think.

>> Clare: It'S just how my brain works. I just needed to

take it out to play it. So I do have to apologise

because we do need to share that we have purchased

Impact from you and it is fabulous. And I know

when we met to do our, What do you call them? it's

a posh one.

>> Vanessa: I call them show and tells.

>> Clare: Oh, it always is a show and tell. But it's like

that kind of discovery call, isn't it, when you

can't.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, we called it discovery. And then I went,

that we're really early is, let's do a show and

tell.

>> Clare: I do that discovered was the bit I couldn't

remember. And we kind of came on it and I know I

was like going, but what about this and what about

that and what about this? And your face was just

like, just give it a go and say. And I was just

like, but. And I think it's again, isn't it? It's

that control. You've spent all of those years

creating your own systems, your own process, and

then all of a sudden someone says, you can. You

can chuck out all of those folders, actually. You

don't need those comfort blankets, you don't need

all of that paperwork trail. It's all here, it's

all in one place. So we have finally, because we

had so many babies settling, we were a little bit

late to the game, but we have finally got. Got

quite A lot of the data uploaded. George is

finishing it. I've told the team everything will

be live by Monday, but no pressure even in my

head. I still needed to work through it and have

that kind of just almost black and white picture

and where we were at before. We can put it onto

the audit, which we will do by Monday.

>> Vanessa: The good thing with the order is it's like you

can, you can share it with teams. It's almost like

you just said, Laura, a message going, could you

do this for the month of November for me? That'd

be great. Then it goes into a calendar, she gets

an email, she gets a reminder of it rather than

you go in, here's your piece of paper, here's your

pen. Right. Well, I do agree with you because I'm

a little bit old school too, you know. When I

broke down those, those tool kits and whatever, I

was just like, oh my God, where do I start? But I

needed to start with my 27,000 coloured post it

notes and pension. I was, I was ready. and I, I.

The thing for me is, is I, and we have inspection

hub memberships and, and a monthly thing. And my

thing with them is what I've said to them is go

and read the inspector's handbook first because

then you can see what an inspector is looking for

because there's no point looking at the toolkit

and going, where do I start? Where are my

valuations? What do I think? Think go and see what

an inspector is looking for first. Yeah. Then once

you've digested that, I will, I will say to you,

Clare, this is, and I haven't shared this with

anybody, but after epop, we went glamping for a

week and I took my computer and my husband. We had

no Internet with no Internet. But I've, you know,

we have the book. are you ready for your

inspection? Well, we now have a new book that's

coming out which is all to do with that toolkit

and I've loved it. I've gone into like, I, yeah,

so it's now gone off to be formatted and, and done

do whatever. But for me I'm just like, oh my God,

I. Something new to get my teeth into. And I just

think, just focus on the inspected standards, just

look at that. That's all you've got to do. Focus

on the green guys, focus on the green, if there

are any. And actually even print though, just the

green statements out and start doing the what the.

So what, the.

>> Clare: Now what?

>> Vanessa: That is so key. You Know, what is it? How do we do

it? So what, and what's the impact now? What, what

are we going to do to make it better?

>> Clare: And that's exactly where we were yesterday, wasn't

it? Because Beth was like, oh, I think there might

be some gaps here. And I immediately went, hang on

a minute, but what about this? And have you

thought about that? And, and actually there's this

and there's this and there's this. And then Lucy

was going through, all of the curriculum and

teaching and she was just like, there's nothing,

there's nothing we've missed. And it was just, I

think it was just that time where the settings are

working, particularly at this point in the term,

aren't they? Every setting's working so hard at

settling those new children. You've just lost all

of those really competent, capable 4 year olds

that you could rely on to, I don't know, help you

fill up your jug of water at lunchtime and all of

those things. and now we've just kind of given

ourselves that 1st of 1st of October switch where

everything's kind of settling back into a rhythm

and we kind of took ourselves off to the loss for

the afternoon and just pulled it all apart. And I

would agree, start on that. Absolute inspection

handbooks all printed out, it's all highlighted.

Have a look at what is there, where are you at

within it? And what is that? I love that. What, so

what and what now?

>> Vanessa: Yeah, it's so we'd use it all the time. And I. I

take that, See, Only thing I'll probably take away

from being a lecturer at university. it was just

Driscoll's what so what now what? And I use it. We

always use it in whatever we do in Jigsaw and in

Impact. That's exactly what we do. Because if you,

you've got to recognise what you do, what's the

impact of it? And now what are you going to do?

Because there's no point not having an ending, is

it? What are you going to do now? Come on, what?

Give me something. And I think if you broke it

down and shared those expected standards with your

team and broke each one of those, which is why

writing the book was really important, because you

read what's being asked in the toolkit and if

you're anything like me, I have to get a ruler, I

don't know, and go, right, what does that mean? I

have to hide everything else and go, what does

that actually mean? Which is why it was really

good for me. To go, I'm going to put it in, in my

nursery, nurse toddler terms and go, right, this

is what this means. Because I, I just don't like

all the big words and the. Why are we confusing

people? Let's just make it to basics. Let's go

back to our basics and explain and then somebody

will then go, oh, that's what that means. Okay, we

do that, but we don't do that. What can we do to

get that?

>> Clare: And it's just using it so much more proactively,

isn't it, rather than reactively. And that whole

self evaluation is just going to play such a huge

part and integrating and say for us, it's like you

say, it's using that language with the team and

making. They're already really, really, just aware

and using in their daily practise. so there isn't

something that kind of just comes out as an

inspection. It's everyday practise. And I think

that's what we always were inspired atelier, from

you was that impact. You know, it's something

that's so, so important. And we were all already

using those three eyes before they were three

eyes. It was just in the words them and knowing

what was kind of coming next.

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: So you have been so busy. So you've been writing a

book.

>> Vanessa: Yeah.

>> Clare: Did you earlier you say you were recording. You

were recording chapters?

>> Vanessa: Yes. So, so every time the new. A new framework or

something comes out, we do something called the

inspection programme. So we've now renamed it

because the podcast is now get inspection Ready.

So we have a. We will have a new programme. So

it's got 15. I've literally. So what I did was I

was very smart this time I've learned. Nine years

down the line, I've learned. So I wrote the book,

wrote each chapter, and as I wrote each chapter

and put it in my manuscript, I took the chapter

and created a script, script to record a training

on the video. and that's what I've done. So

literally, rather than writing the book and then

going, oh, God, I can't remember because menopause

brain, I can't remember what on earth I'm doing. I

broke it all down and I gave myself a goal that

I'd have it all completed by the 30th of

September. And it's done, it's done.

>> Clare: Wow.

>> Vanessa: Thank you. Thank you.

>> Clare: That, is amazing. And there will be so many

settings out there that will be so grateful that

you've done that work.

>> Vanessa: Look, well, I Hope so. Because it.

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> Vanessa: And there's nothing worse, if any. You know, when

you go and do your training, recording training

videos and seeing your face and hearing your face,

it's not so great. Right.

>> Clare: The Worst Blue sky sent our last recordings back,

didn't they? About three weeks ago. We haven't

even opened them. We've just used it as an excuse

because we've been too busy settling babies to

even open them because we just cringe every single

time. Absolutely.

>> Vanessa: Time. No kidding. And I got to the point, I

remember, it was on Sunday, like, nobody was in

the studio, because I can't bear it if anybody's

in. I can't. It has to be. Nobody's in. And I

basically get dressed top half. So basically I

might as well just wear my pyjamas underneath with

my slippers, if I'm honest with you.

>> Vanessa: And I get dressed up top half, I do manage to wash

my hair and put my makeup on and then I do these

videos. Like, I literally just ran them all out.

But, like you, I'm. I've got to the. But they've.

I've done them, but I haven't. I've edited them

where they've got subtitles now. So I've learned,

right, let's do subtitles. Let's do that. but now

it's got to the point where I'm just like, I. And

I don't know how Anthony ever hears. Listens to my

voice on podcast, like, Hugh, how does anybody do

it? How does anybody listen to their own voice?

Can't bear it. Well, we.

>> Clare: You're fabulous. So we've got inspection programme

book, scripting videos and webinar coming up on

the 3rd of November.

>> Vanessa: yeah, webinar first. So, there'll be a link, which

I'll send to you. And on November 3rd, there is a.

Because we do these webinars every now and then. I

try and put them off, if I'm honest with you, but

the team just go this little. Do you know what?

Would it be really good, Vanessa? Another webinar.

M. It's because I have to do the webinars at 7 o'

clock at night and if anyone knows me, I'm in bed

by half seven. So by half seven, I'm literally

gone. I'm literally like, oh, my Wordy. So, yeah,

so that's November 7th and I actually do think,

you know, if I did it in my pyjamas, people would

love it.

>> Clare: Yeah.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, I bet they would. I know one day I'M gonna

do that. Right. Just turn up in my pyjamas.

>> Clare: I think it's good. I think you should, because it

is. It is how we roll it. You know, there is so

much that goes on and goes out, so I think it is

really important. So whether it's your pyjamas or

whatever it is that makes you kind of rock and

roll to make it work, then that's what's going to

happen. So we're going to share with all the

listeners the webinar on the 3rd of the 11th.

You're going to give us the link and we'll pop it

into the show. Yeah, that would be fabulous. So I

guess to round us up, what's going to be your top

tips for the providers as we go into November?

We're thinking about everything that's to come.

We've got your walk and introduce your staff.

Focus on the greens, the what's the sown, what's

the what's now.

>> Vanessa: Yeah, yeah. So I think principle one, you start it

now in. Ingrain it in everyday language every day.

Don't just bring it out and just, you know, here

it is. But the chief belong and thrive. Use it

constantly, constantly, constantly, now,

everywhere, put it everywhere, I don't care. I

just want to see it. Okay. I think think about the

what, the so what and the now. What is so

important, so important. And I think I'm going to

give you three. So. So one is shine and not shy

away. It's your setting, you own it. Think about

what you're doing. Yes, but the other thing I

would say is, is remember that inclusivity is

interwoven in at absolutely everything. So

whatever you do, think extra. Don't just think,

you know, I'm just doing it for one individual

child. What about those invisible children? And

those are the ones you've got to get. They're the

ones.

>> Clare: Absolutely. Thank you so, so much, Vanessa. Thank

you for coming and joining it.

>> Vanessa: I'm really sorry. Talk loads. Sorry.

>> Clare: Don't ever apologise for that. We love having you

with us. So, from us at, Tilia Talks, a really big

thank you to Vanessa and to Beth, for starting to

unpick, all of those principles, the inspection

toolkit and everything that's ahead of us from

November. So please don't forget to join Vanessa

on her webinar on the third. anything else that we

can do to help you at the consultancy, either at

Jigsaw Early Years or Atelier, get in touch

because there's never such a thing as a silly

question. We want to be unpicking really looking

at it and most of all shine and not shy away play

that show and tell make sure sure that you

remember everything there is to celebrate about

your settings. So a really big thank you to you

both and a goodbye from us.

>> Vanessa: Thank you.

>> Clare: Bye. Thank you for joining us for Atelier Talks.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to

subscribe, share and leave us a review. It really

helps us to reach more educators, parents and

early years professionals just like you. For more

insights into our unique research led approach or

to find out more about our services at both the

nursery or the consultancy and how we can help you

in your early years practise, visit our website or

follow us on social media. All the details you

need to find us are in the show notes. In the

meantime it's goodbye from us. Thank you for

joining us with Forward to seeing you next time

for another episode of Atelier Talks. Thanks for

listening.