Tom Pepperdine interviews crime thriller author L D Smithson, about her writing process. Leona discusses how she writes around her role as a psychologist, being inspired by the real world, and why it takes a glass of wine and 24 hours to deal with editorial feedback.

Leona's website is here:

https://www.leonadeakin.co.uk/

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Hello, and welcome to The Real Writing Process.

I'm your host Tom Pepperdine, and this week my guest is crime

thriller author L D Smithson.

L D Smithson is a psychologist who started her writing career writing the Dr.

Bloom crime series under the name Leona Deakin, but her latest book is a

standalone, and so a new name was born.

Also, it's a different publisher and that's how marketing works, but don't

worry, we cover it in the interview.

The key thing to know is that she's a talented writer, and her latest book,

The Escape Room, is out this week.

And I will say, it's not hyperbole to call it one of the best thrillers I've read.

My wife read it in one day after I raved about it, and now she's

ordered everything Leona has written because she's become a bit obsessed.

But, in a healthy way?

Nah, I'm not too concerned.

Yet.

Anyway, Leona is fantastic, clearly knows her shit, gave me some validation

off air too, so her psychologist skills are top notch as well.

And I think if you write thrillers, want to write thrillers, or just

enjoy thrillers, then you'll get a lot out of this interview.

So, shall I stop the intro waffle and just get to the interview?

Yeah, let's jingle.

And this week I'm here with LD Smithson.

Leona, hello.

Hello, lovely to be here.

Thank you for being here.

And my first question, as always, what are we drinking?

Well, I am drinking what I like to call a Capu Latte today.

My youngest sister owns a lovely independent cafe and she's a

properly trained barista and she makes amazing cappuccinos.

And then I try and replicate them at home.

Okay.

Always a bit of a cross between the two.

So that's what I'm drinking today.

My latte.

My own invention.

Yeah, no, no.

It's very, very frothy and very creamy.

I like it.

So I, I, I'm joining you.

I'm usually black coffee all the way because I'm lactose intolerant, but I have

I am sorry.

No, I have oat milk and oat milk froth is beautiful.

You can get barista versions now.

It's, it's very good.

Lovely.

Mm.

Oh, there we go.

Um, and where I'm speaking to you now, is this your writing room?

Is this the corner of the house that you write in?

It is really, this is our kind of home office.

We, we bought a new home together, myself and my husband a few

years ago and, um, renovated it.

Knocked down all the walls, made it lovely and open plan so that

we could spend as much time as possible with our three children.

Immediately regretted that decision, we had our first

weekend with all the children.

Um, but yeah, so it doesn't really have a door on it.

You can kind of see straight way through to the rest of the house.

So it's quite open.

But it is like a little corner that you can get with the seat.

So I can go here and people will leave me be.

Nice.

Okay.

And do you have set hours when you're sort of like?

Yes.

And I also work as a business psychologist.

So my writing tends to fit about half of my time.

And the other half is working as a freelance consultant.

So I write when I can would be the real answer.

So I love to have full days where I can spend the whole day writing.

That's really lovely, but sometimes that's a luxury.

Yeah.

Um, I also write a lot on trains when I'm going to and from my work as a

psychologist, I just put my headphones in.

And I like to walk to a local cafe sometimes and write there.

So.

I don't really mind where I am, but it's only when I'm in the house

on my own and this space is quiet.

Yes.

That's luxurious.

I was going to say, with three kids, I guess the noise of a cafe and having

noise, do you find you write better when it's silence or when, you know,

you have like white noise background?

I find it better when I have a playlist on.

So when I'm writing a book, I will have a playlist for that book.

Nice.

Which is music that I find gets me in the right frame of mind for whatever

story is, and it's quite a long playlist so it isn't too repetitive.

But those songs just get me into the right frame of mind.

Yeah.

And I've always written like that.

I think because I used to write on trains a lot when I first started and

obviously that just you can't help But listen to a train conversation

because they're fascinating

And do you find it better with movie soundtrack and like classical

like instrumental music that evocative of the emotion of the scene or is

it more classic pop tracks that might represent the characters?

Yeah, well, I'm a bit of an indie queen, so I'm a kind of Radiohead, R.

E.

M.

kind of fan back in the day.

And so I always have, my indie playlists are my favorites.

Um, but I can't have songs I love too much on there, I find.

Yeah.

If something come on that I really, I stopped writing

and I listened to the song.

So new music is quite good for me because it kind of just plays in the background.

I don't know it.

It isn't distracting.

And then it just becomes part of the writing process.

So I'll go and find an indie playlist of new tunes.

And use that kind of thing.

So...

nice.

And you don't accidentally find yourself writing the lyrics into your?

Don't know.

I don't think so.

No, I feel like I need to go back and pick all my

books.

Just check your editors.

It's like, Oh wait, no, hold on.

There's a whole paragraph that's the chorus.

and we should talk about your latest book, The Escape Room, which I absolutely loved.

And my wife is obsessed with, my goodness, it's like, cause

occasionally there'll be a book.

She, she really likes crime and she read it in less than 24 hours.

She was up until midnight finishing it.

And then, bless her and shows the true love that we have.

She let me sleep, but as soon as I woke up in the morning, it's

like, we're discussing this book.

Oh that's

wonderful.

Yes.

So, it's a little departure cause you also write under

Leona Deacon, with the, the Dr.

Bloom series of crime thriller novels.

So in general terms, I'm interested with all writers, how you you start a story,

whether it's, you know, a character or a scenario or, you know, just an event.

What was it that made you depart from the Dr.

Bloom books to write The Escape Room?

Was this something that had been percolating for a while?

Or was there something that just you know, inspiration struck?

You know, how did it come about?

Yeah, it actually came about really through conversations.

I had a new editor, um, in my publishers.

And he's fab and I really enjoyed working with him.

My previous editor was amazing, but he's just A bit different.

And he's a bit more in the story ideas with me.

And we talked about different ideas for the next story in the Dr.

Bloom series.

And then he just asked me if I had any other ideas and we

talked through some ideas there.

And then we both just got kind of carried away talking

about this reality TV culture.

And I think squid games had just come out and things like that.

And we started sharing podcasts or TV shows and then it just

kind of went off on a journey.

And then at some point, I can't remember whether it was him or me, but we thought

we should write a story about this.

Cause this is, this is the thing that we are talking most about.

And so it kind of evolves from there.

So it wasn't like a story idea that popped in my head that I

thought I want to write that.

Or it wasn't even a, oh, I'm bored of the series, I want to move on.

It was kind of a bit more organic, maybe than that.

It was just about kind of observing what was going on in culture

and how that was fascinating me.

Is that how you generally start your stories?

Is that you look at a thing in society or that you want to discuss in a story?

Or there's a scenario that you think, Oh, that'd be a good

crime to solve or is there a character that you want to feature?

How does the story generally develop?

Yeah, I suppose it's quite similar, now you've asked that question.

When I did my first novel, my first Dr.

Bloom novel Gone, that was around a 14 year old psychopath.

That was inspired by a book, which is by ME Thomas, which

is called Diary of a Sociopath.

So she is a real life lawyer living in America who has been diagnosed

with sociopathy or, um, antisocial personality disorder really.

And she wrote about her experiences and how she sees the world.

And I just thought it was absolutely fascinating and I thought, what if there

was a child in school, a teenager who felt different, like so many teenagers

do, their difference was this very extreme difference that's really quite dark.

But also quite judged and prejudiced against by the world.

And so she kind of inspired that story.

And then Dr.

Bloom is my psychologist who works with this individual and then there's a whole

load of mysterious crimes going on in the background, people disappearing, and

kind of leaving strange messages behind.

And so that becomes something that Dr.

Bloom's embroiled in while working with this young girl.

So yeah, I suppose they are inspired by things I'm reading

or seeing in the real world.

And then I'm trying to come up with my own version of that.

Yeah.

No, that's really cool.

And the book that you're working on the moment, is it too spoilerific to say

what inspired what you're working on?

No, it isn't.

So the book I'm working on at the moment is all about shame and being shamed.

So it's essentially about a group of friends where somebody's found out some

things they've done in the past that they would be ashamed if they came out.

And then it's how far they'll go to protect themselves

from that truth coming out.

And again, that's that whole, what we see on social media where, you know,

when people get called out for having done something embarrassing or foolish.

And the idea that actually we're all human and we can all make mistakes and

we probably all have something in our past we'd rather others didn't know.

But what if that was exposed, and how would that, like, shatter

our lives or our self identity.

It's actually something I discuss a lot with people, because

the extent of cancel culture, and there's a understandable end,

but it's also, at what point do you reject the possibility of redemption.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's really healthy.

I think that's where we kind of evolve and grow.

And it's like two forward, one step back sometimes, but we're all people.

Really moving forward.

And I think one of the things that influences some of my stories

is, as a psychologist, I have this really fundamental beliefs

that people are born with a blank sheet in terms of good and bad.

So even if you were born with a psychopathic brain, which we know is

wired up a little bit differently, and you don't experience emotions quite

as keenly, and you're not as scared and, and you're not as empathetic.

But you can be intelligent and still make good choices if you're educated right

and you have a good family background.

And so I think there's always that chance for that opportunity to be

the best of yourself and the best person and then that opportunity to

put it right if you got it wrong.

I know some people would see me as being a bit naive there, but I just

like that idea of human nature.

I think I'm just an optimist.

Optimism is something I think we need more of in the world right now.

Yes.

I definitely think environment helps.

Um, and it's amazing how people with the same diagnosis, but different cultural

background or nurture, you know, the level of nurturing they've had, how they

can develop their personalities and it can manifest in very different ways.

And there's a mindset to it, isn't there?

If you say, so if you have kind of attention deficit disorder, for instance,

you might see that as something that holds you back, or you could choose

to see that as your superpower.

Because you're going to be better in a crisis and better when there's lots

of variety and multiple demands going on than somebody who's kind of very

steady away and, and like structure and his brain works in a very linear way.

So I think it's embracing that difference, isn't it?

That we're all different.

So learn how that helps you, and learn how that can be to your

advantage and lean into that.

Lean into it a little bit.

And I think in the world of kind of physical disability, you see those

examples quite strongly now, don't you?

Where you get the Paralympians, many of them will say that their parents

influenced them hugely by kind of saying, well, you're just as valid.

You're just different.

So go out there and be the best version of you.

And I think mental health wise, that's coming.

Not quite there, but hopefully that's coming, that idea of,

okay, so you're different.

Everybody's different.

Yeah.

. So how can you use it?

How can it help you?

Yeah.

And moving a bit more, going back into your writing and

the development of your story.

So at the moment you are sort of focusing on shame and where you've

dealt with, uh, sociopathy in the past.

How do you start mapping that out into a story?

Do you then find a core character?

So you represent it and you start developing who they are as a person, who

they associate with, what their background is, or do you go more into the plot of?

Okay, these are the events that I want to unfold in this book?

Yeah, so I'm very much, um, I like to call it a gardener, where I got

a character, an interesting character, my 40 year old psychopath, let's say,

or, um, my TV reality show contestant who didn't really want to be on the TV show.

And then I put them in a situation and then I kind of ask them,

what are you going to do now?

Yeah.

And if I have made their character real enough in my own head.

If I can kind of understand where they're coming from personality

wise and background wise.

Then that process becomes quite easy.

And sometimes they do things that I wouldn't expect or I wouldn't

do, and that gives me a bit of a headache for a few days to work out

what on earth do I do with this now.

And then what's quite interesting is that's how I wrote the series, the Dr.

Bloom series, very organically.

Starting out with almost a scenario, maybe the first few chapters and then

seeing where the book went, really enjoyed writing like that, loved it.

And then when my new editor came in, he was like, Oh, I kind of

want to know a bit more about where you're going to take the story.

We worked on mapping it out a lot.

We worked on what the ending might be, who the villains might be.

We talked all of that through beforehand, which was really new

for me and really, really hard.

But then when it came to sitting down and writing it, I wrote the first like

25, 000 words just like lightning.

Because I was in the story and I loved that then.

I was like that accelerated things.

However, my editor will laugh at this, Finn will laugh at this, that

then there comes a point where I go, yeah, but what would they do now?

And then all that planning kind of goes away because what I enjoy as a writer is

being in the story with them and almost asking them now, what are you going to do?

And then I feel like I'm the first reader of that story.

so even when I do try and plan and I can see that it has some advantages, I still

go off and follow my nose a little bit.

And I think that's captured really well in The Escape Room,

just thinking of that process.

Because, again, trying to be very spoiler light here, the reality

show has a director who has set up a certain thing and definitely has

a vision for what they want the show to be, and then you have your main

character who is disrupting that.

And it very is true with the way it's edited in reality shows

that they do craft a story.

That the people inside don't realize is beyond their control and how

they're going to be portrayed.

And having all of that explored is really, really good.

And I really felt like all of the characters and their backgrounds and

having the contestants in the show.

Initially, I felt, oh, they seem quite broad, but then, of course, that's what

you have in a reality show, is that you have very strong personalities.

And then having them actually react in, you know, subtle ways where it's like, no,

they're more than their initial mask, and their initial persona, and actually, uh,

going under the layers of them, and then revealing themselves to be more nuanced.

Yes.

And to have, and to see that person behind that kind of fluff and

facade that we often judge people by when we see them on, on shows.

That we just take them at face value and we don't really think about

what their motivations might be or what's going on in their life.

What are they trying to run away from by trying to get into TV?

And I think what I wanted to do is represent some characters who looked

and sounded like the typical people who want to have a career in TV.

Cause you always get a good smattering of those.

And then with the premise of The Fortress, which is the reality TV show

in The Escape Room, it was, are you smart enough to unlock its secrets.

Wanted it to attract people who thought of themselves as smart and who

had through that kind of application process, proven themselves to be smart.

So they arrive feeling confident that they're going

to have to use their intellect.

and then of course things go very wrong.

And so...

And when you're developing all these characters and all these

layers and all of that, are you very prolific with note taking?

And do you have like little subfolders and index cards to keep track

of all the different characters?

Or do you just try and keep it all in your head?

Um, I have just one ring bound notebook, like an A4 ring bound

notebook, for every book that I write.

And that's what I've always done in my kind of corporate life and just write

notes as they go and I just date them.

As I'm writing them that day, so as I'm working on something.

So then I can always kind of track back, you know, like, Oh, what, what was the

name of that character I just put in?

And what, what were they, where were they coming from?

And I can then find it thinking, Oh, that was about three weeks ago.

And so that's how I kind of do it, but they're very, if anyone

else read them, they'd probably think, well, this is all nonsense.

It's not like you can turn that into anything really.

So they are just kind of brain dumps as I'm writing.

I'll maybe write down an idea for something I don't want to forget.

So yeah, I think I'm just in the book and in the workings of it.

I don't do, like I say, huge amounts of planning.

Until I get to the editing stage, where then I like to get my post it notes

out, and I have a lot of fun with those.

But when I'm doing the first draft, I'm just kind of in it with

random notes, scribbling in this one book, that becomes my Bible.

And do you like to do a lot of research?

Are you research light, or are you research heavy?

Well, this is one of the things I'm doing very differently with the

current book that I'm working on.

Because of having kind of two jobs, I haven't, I feel had enough luxury of

time to do as much research as I might've liked in all of my previous books.

So I'm trying to do more of that in this one.

And so that's really enjoyable.

And I put more time aside to do that research.

However, with the reality TV one, I mean it's kind of speaking to people,

friends, family, watching the TV shows.

It was quite easy to research that in some ways.

And also the, one of the kind of story tools, as you, as you

know, was a podcast that's kind of running on about what's happened.

And I love podcasts and particularly true crime podcasts.

And so that again was, I just pick something that was talking about a

similar topic and I'd listen to that.

And then I'd kind of use that to just give me a little bit of inspiration for what

the interviewer might talk about next.

So yeah, they are, I always want to make them really authentic.

I would hate for someone who, let's say, who'd been on a reality TV show,

or let's say someone who's been in an escape room, I would hate them to read

the book and go, it's nothing like this when you go in an escape room.

So, so I actually met with a lady, Claire, who designs escape rooms up here where

I live and she spent a half afternoon with me going through how they do it

and all the trickery in the background.

It was wonderful.

Like seeing behind the magician's kind of tactics.

And she was great.

So sometimes you'll have someone who will just give you

that opening into that world.

That's lovely.

And then other bits, you're just taking piecemeal, little bits of

inspiration from different places.

But I would like to research more.

I think that's something I'm hungry to do more of.

Yeah, I must say, I thought it was very well realized.

And there was very well observed bits with podcasting, certainly.

I'm relieved to hear that,

uh, again, I don't want to spoil it, but I will just mention, obviously

we mentioned a UK channel in it.

And I found that hilarious.

I just thought, yeah, they would totally go for this show.

That's where it would be.

Yes.

So I just thought, again, it was just these little observations that

really, really, you know, sort of, uh, help authenticate the book, and really

ground it, which I really, really loved.

Oh, that's great.

Cause a lot of work does go into that and making it kind of real.

And certainly, my editor was very keen on saying that this , this is a story

that would be quite unbelievable if we don't execute it really, really well.

So having somebody with you that keeps your feet on the ground a bit and, and for

instance, he was the one who said about putting the sponsorships into the podcast.

And I remember thinking, Oh, it feels a bit naff and I, I listened

to a few podcasts and I thought, Oh, I don't like them anyway.

But then as soon as I wrote it and read it back, I was like, Oh my goodness,

that sounds like a podcast now.

So just sometimes having people around you that kind of punctured through

your artistic vision and go, yeah, but you need to do this otherwise people

aren't going to believe what's going on.

You need to make it real.

And so that kind of help and support, that's invaluable, I think.

No, I thought it was great.

And I do want to sort of cover more about plotting, as that seems

like a new challenge for you, having the, the ending and stuff.

So what does an outline look like for you?

Because I know some people who just like, yeah, they have their initial

concept and they write and see where the characters create them.

And they don't really know the ending until they've written it.

But if you've now got an ending, Have you got a beat by beat of the story?

Is it a three act structure?

Is it a 12 act structure?

Do you have a chapter by chapter summary?

How does the outline manifest itself for the escape room?

Yeah, I'm a bit more kind of broad.

So a three act structure is kind of where I, I work.

And then I will have what I want happening kind of as the

crescendos within each of that.

And actually, um, the escape room is split into kind of three sections as well.

So you can see that kind of laid out in the book.

And right from the beginning, I was thinking about those three

different sections and what might be happening within those.

But I didn't know exactly how it was going to end at the beginning.

And I remember having a couple of conversations with my husband and one of

my oldest friends, Christine, and I was telling him a bit about the story and most

people glaze over with coffee, but they both got really into it and they came up

with a couple of ideas that I thought, I'm having them, they're really good.

And so a couple of the twists at the end came from that one was conversation.

And so I think it's that thing I'm as a writer, I really, really enjoy

indulging my introverted side.

getting stuck in the story and being on my own and being quiet.

But also I'm quite an extroverted personality.

So sometimes where I get my best ideas is when I'm talking

to people about the story.

I'm talking to people about my ideas and they suggest their own.

And I either think, great, I'm stealing it, or I think, no, you're wrong.

They wouldn't do that.

So sometimes every now and then, if I'm feeling a bit stuck, I will kind

of bounce it off trusted others.

But anyway, going back to the plotting.

So my plotting is quite loose.

I don't have chapter by chapter.

I I know who's doing the things that are being done, but I don't

know how they're going to get their comeuppance necessarily.

I might have a couple of ideas.

But they tend to usually turn out to be quite naive ideas that then

I find I can't really execute that and it's a bit ridiculous really.

Because once you get into the characters and think about what real people might

do, those simplistic endings of how someone might come up and be kind of

exposed, start to feel a little bit, um, trite, like oh I've seen it before,

it's something I saw in a movie once.

So I think then challenging yourself to do it a bit more authentically.

So I have my overview and then within that, I allow myself room to just

kind of let the story evolve a bit.

Nice.

And I think there's a lot of people, I'm sure there's a lot of listeners

who really enjoy the ideas stage and developing like all the bits of the story.

But the graft of writing a hundred thousand words or thereabouts, and

actually getting it all down is where a lot of people can get unstuck.

So how do you discipline yourself to go, right, okay,

I've got all these great ideas.

Now I've got to get them down and articulate it in the best way possible.

And how do you arrange your writing sessions?

You've already said you write when you can, and it doesn't really matter

where you are, but do you have any particular rituals or any particular

way you start a writing session?

And do you have any particular goal?

Like, okay, I'm going to write for a certain amount of

time, certain number of words.

How do you craft your writing sessions?

Yeah, well, when I'm on the school run days, my

writing time is kind of limited.

So that's a deadline is always helpful, isn't it?

And, and I usually try and see if I can get to about 2000 words a day.

I like that.

I feel like if I've done 2000 words, I could stop if I wanted to, but if I

haven't done 2000 words, I should use whatever extra time I've still got.

So that's a bit of a measure in my head.

I'm not sure where that number came from, probably something

I read by another author once, but, but that's kind of there.

So over time, what I've learned about writing for myself is that I always am

not sure what I'm going to write next.

And that can lead to procrastination, that blank page.

What I've learned over time is I always do write something next.

I always do.

I, I've been fortunate enough I've never sat at my desk or

my laptop and then walked away from it and not written a word.

But what I tend to do to kind of trick myself into starting that writing

is I go back a number of chapters.

And then I read through those chapters.

And then what I find is as I'm reading those chapters, I start,

cause you can't help it as a writer, editing a little bit and tinkering.

Going, I don't like how that conversation runs.

And then as soon as I'm into that, doing a little bit of tinkering,

as soon as I get to the blank page, I kind of know what's coming.

I'm back in the world with the characters.

So I have to get myself back in, I almost have to take a run up

towards it, if that makes sense.

And sometimes, so like after Christmas, I had to start right at the beginning

and read the whole thing, because I thought I can't remember what these

people were doing or where they were, because I've had like a fortnight off.

So sometimes you really have to go back.

But normally it's just, you know, half a dozen pages I'm going back.

And with the 2000 words, because I mean, I'm not a writer, but I certainly

remember when doing essays back in school, it was write a paragraph,

right, how many words is that?

Is there any kind of software?

Is there like a countdown that you use?

Or is it just like, how do you chart your 2000 words?

I just look at the numbers that I've written that day.

Yeah, I do.

Sometimes I'll write down in a book what the number of words are when I

start, and then I can kind of gauge it, but often I'm just looking to

see, it will tell you, like word, how many you've done since you started.

So.

It's usually just as rudimentary as that.

And usually that's at a point where I start feeling frustrated or bored.

And I think, I hope I've got my 2000 so I could go out for a walk with the dog.

And then I realized I've only done 700 and I'm like, darn it.

I mean, mentioning having Christmas off, are there times when

you know, five books in how do you deal with an uninspired period?

Yeah.

So I always find the middle bit the hardest.

So that's when I know I'm going to get those uninspired bits.

And often it's because there are too many options where I could take it.

And because I write the way I do, which is more evolved, I'm not maybe

heading towards a set destination.

That's even harder because you're like, well, I could take it this

way or this way or this way.

So it's almost like that overwhelming table of choice.

But I have a very consistent way that works for me.

I'm runner and if I run and the story will tend to unlock itself.

So I put music on, I go out, I think about all sorts of other things, probably for

the majority of the run, and often in the last kind of 20 minutes, I'll just think,

right, and I'll go into the story, and by the time I've come back, I have something.

And that consistently works for me.

And where I've struggled really with writing is when I've been unable to run.

So I broke my toe in September, so I couldn't run for a good few

months, like six or eight weeks.

Um, and I found that quite debilitating then, because when I did have those

moments, I'd have to go for longer and longer walks with the dog to get the same.

And I think like you say, about the psychology, I think there's something

about when your body's moving at pace.

Your mind's moving at a pace, and for me, that kind of works.

A thing I heard about long ago, and again, I have no scientific

background, so this is just, yeah, the internet told me, but alpha waves?

Is that a thing in the brain?

Oh, yeah.

That when you've got a repetitive action that a lot of the brain is focused on

doing something that it knows how to do, and it's a lot of the unconscious, so

walking a familiar route, brushing your teeth, having a shower, it allows the

problem solving part of the brain to go, well, we're not doing anything because

we're not lost, we know, you know, what parts of the body we need to clean and

if we're doing dishes or just doing a repetitive chore, and it allows to fix

problems that in other parts of our life, which is why people get ideas when

they're in the shower, when they're Doing their chores or when they're going for a

walk, is that an actual recognized thing?

It is.

Yeah.

And it's like the brain's kind of freewheeling a little bit and often

very creative people will say their best ideas will come in the shower or

they'll come just as moments where you're just falling asleep or just waking up.

Where the brain is really, really, really relaxed.

And I think a lot of that is to do with not having a huge

amount of stress hormones.

So if you are worried about the fact you don't know what to write

then that anxiety interferes with your ability to be creative.

It interferes with how the brain works because the brain just goes into this

process of how do we escape the anxiety?

How do we escape the threat?

As opposed to what amazing ideas might I have.

Now walking, swimming, cycling, running, they are all stress releasing

because they take cortisol, which is our stress hormone out of our system.

So that's probably why it's usually the end of my runs where I get the

most inspiration because by that point, my body's kind of reset itself.

My brain's relaxed.

It's getting a bit tired.

Like you say, it's going through some repetitive motion and it allows

that kind of creativity to kick in.

Yeah.

So there's, there's lots of factors that feed into we don't fully

understand how it all works yet.

But that's because I've discussed it with a few writers and I've always

quantified it with a pinch of salt.

I was going like, I don't know where I learnt this, but now like

talking to a psychologist and saying, yes, there is science behind that.

I feel okay.

I know I've spoken to professionals, so that's good.

I can tick that off.

I'm not talking complete bullshit.

That's great.

And there's one more thing that I think I learned a long time

ago, just doing a writing class, which was if you're really, really stuck,

just a timer on for five minutes.

and write anything.

Just write until the timer goes off.

And you'll write complete dross, but as you're writing, inspiration will come.

And I do find that this work as well.

So that's almost, I suppose that's a little bit like taking the run up.

It's how to trick yourself into getting into the writing.

So one of my very first guests, Harriet Klein had a similar thing

where she would just start writing dross and just be like, just, just get

to the keyboard and just start typing and then, but don't worry about it.

And then about 10 minutes in.

Yeah, the brain's warmed up.

It's like the engine's running.

And a sci fi author that we've also had on, Tade Thompson, he literally

rolls out of bed and starts typing.

He just before he has a coffee, while he's still in that fugue dream state, it's

just like, okay, let's just write stuff.

We can edit it later.

But let's just see what the unconscious brain is sort of thinking.

That's it.

And I think what, what we also know about the brain, which is really cool stuff,

and I don't fully understand this field, but it's always going in the background.

So I don't know whether you've had one of those experiences in life,

where you've had a kind of revelation where, You've suddenly thought, Oh my

goodness, I know what's going on here.

Like there might be some things that have happened in your personal life

or maybe in your professional life where there's some kind of mystery

there that you haven't even spotted.

And then one day your brain goes, right, I've been collecting some clues here.

So I'm just going to lay these out for you because I think something's occurring.

And then you get that kind of moment of clarity where you go, Oh my goodness.

And that's because it's always.

Taking information in, it doesn't always tell our conscious brain,

but it's always kind of assimilating information and that's just really cool.

Yeah, I, I, I'm an avid walker and yeah, it's, it's definitely

where the, the pieces come together.

Yes.

Yeah.

I know we've mentioned stress and anxiety in writing and struggling in the middle.

Uh, imposter syndrome, very common thing.

Is it something that you've had a lot of experience in?

Is there a period where maybe each writing project where you have really strong

doubts and how do you get through it?

Yeah, I think on a broad level.

If you met me in the street and said, Oh, hi Leona, what do you do?

I'd say I'm a psychologist.

And then my husband would go, and an author.

On the large scale, yes, that imposter syndrome is present, um, and there's that

element of I think when you do something like writing, there's always a new bar.

So, you know, 10 years ago, my biggest dream was to have a single book published.

If that had happened to me, my life would have been set.

But then of course, once you get a First book published.

Then you're like, well, could I do a second?

Well, could it sell well?

Well, you know, could I get a TV deal out of it?

And so there's always another bar.

So you're always chasing, you're always in the chasing pack.

And because of that, it keeps you in this perpetual state of,

I don't I think I'm good enough.

I don't think I can do this.

And then occasionally, well, went out for dinner the other night with

some of my husband's colleagues.

And I said to the lady, I'm working really hard on my writing.

I'm doing lots more research at the moment.

And she said, well, how much better could you get?

You've got five books out.

It was one of those moments where I'm like, well, of course I could get better.

I could get better at the quality of the writing.

I could make it more successful in terms of my living.

But, but just then remembering that somebody going, but you've published

five books, don't we talk about how you're having to really try hard?

There's people who dream of one book and haven't had that.

And it was a bit of a moment of, Oh, actually, yeah.

But, but that's imposter syndrome.

That's just that I don't really feel like I am a writer.

Um, and then on the professional side, I kind of understand where

all of those things are coming.

Um, and, and lot of impost, well most of us get imposter syndrome at

the beginning of a new job anyway, so we all know what it feels like.

'cause your first six to eight, 12 months you feel like an imposter

and then it kind of beds in.

Where it becomes this kind of syndrome is where it lingers around for a bit longer.

And I, I can completely see where mine comes from.

Because I'm the eldest of three sisters and often imposter syndrome

comes from messages in your childhood.

So I was the eldest.

So I did all the exams first.

So I was the kind of intellectual one.

I was the academic one.

And then my sisters were far more creative in what they did, and more fashionable

and more outgoing and all those things.

And I was the studious one.

And then when it came to being the writer, there's that little

voice in my head going, yeah, but you're not the creative one.

This shouldn't be you.

That like that's deep set stuff.

But yeah, sorry, to go back to, does it affect my actual writing?

Um, I managed to force it out and I think I'm helped by the fact I understand

it as a phenomena as a psychologist.

And I understand it's just an anxiety that doesn't really do anything useful.

So I feel it, I know it's there, and then I have to actively park

it and just get on with it anyway.

Yeah.

And, uh, going on to your editing now.

We've mentioned before that you sort of, you go back and you'll tinker, but yeah,

have the run up before a writing session and go back, uh, a few chapters, uh, when

you've actually finished first draft.

Do you then go back and read the whole thing or do you give it to

someone to get a second opinion before you start like a big rewrite?

I always have loved this idea of giving it to people for a second opinion.

And I did that very well.

I still do it to a degree.

Um, but what I tend to find is that people just come back and

go, yeah, I really liked it.

It was really good.

And you go, no, I want to know chapter by chapter what works and what didn't,

which characters you like, and actually I want you to edit this book for me.

And of course people aren't going to do that because they're

reading it for enjoyment.

So, what I do, so I love working with my editor and getting the structural edits

back, although it takes me 24 hours.

So I have to open that email, read the feedback, then probably have some wine.

And then go to sleep, and then I wake up the next day and think,

right, let's get at it then.

But that first Read through is always quite jarring when you're told what

doesn't work or what needs more work.

Because I always think it's when you send your first draft out or even

your final book, it's akin to taking your baby out for the first time.

Yeah.

And then if someone goes, Oh, it's nose is a bit funny.

Yeah.

So why can't you just say it's perfect?

No notes.

And then it become a bestseller.

That's all I want.

Quite simple.

Yeah.

I laugh at myself, because every time I send a draft of a book off, I kind of

have these imaginings of my editor just ringing me like 48 hours later and going,

this is the best thing I've ever read.

Of course that person wouldn't be doing their job.

And of course it's not the best thing anyone has ever read, it's a first draft.

So, but you can always have that kind of desire.

But then personally, what I like to do when it comes to then the

re looking at the book, like I say, I get my post it notes out.

So one of my favorite parts of editing is I write a chapter on each post it note.

So just the essence of each chapter on a post it note, and then I just

stick them on my kitchen table and then I start moving things around.

And just thinking about how the story can have more suspense or more tension

and where I need more detailing.

And so that becomes a very kind of Productive, physical process,

rather than a mental process.

Yeah, because it definitely is like, uh, flashback scenes in, um.

In the escape room.

Yes, in the escape room.

So, mention the book, name the book.

Um, one thing that I found really funny after reading it and loving it and

giving it to my wife was, uh, there's an early scene with a child and a postman.

Yes.

And she was like, Oh, what does this mean?

And I'd forgotten it.

And I was like, Oh my God.

And my wife was just really confused.

I was like, that makes so much sense.

Oh my God.

That was seeded right at the beginning.

And it says like, Oh, that's such a good stuff.

And my wife's like, okay, I'm intrigued about this book now because I've just

read and you're going nuts over a scene that currently doesn't make sense.

I was like, Oh, it will.

Oh, it will.

It will, it will come into its own.

So, so yeah, and with the podcast interviews taking place at a time

after the main events, I can see how, yeah, sort of, so that wasn't initially

the structure, it was more linear?

Yeah, well, the opening chapter, that first chapter, I did write that

as one of my earliest chapters and I just liked that kind of imagery of it.

So it inspired me and I wrote that chapter and then it was a case of,

well, where is this going to fit?

How is this going to fit?

And then, and then that kind of worked its way through.

Um, but yeah, the podcast deciding what the podcast would cover,

when the podcast would come in.

Cause it moves the story forward a little bit when I needed to clarify something

or explain something, the podcaster was great for that kind of thing.

Um, and just also building up a bit of mystery within some of the questions

that were being asked there and some of Bonnie's answers within that.

So it was really fun thing to play.

And this is the weird thing about the escape room is that I love that you

and your wife have really loved it.

I have had some people say to me, Oh, I had to get up in the late

in the night and put the landing light on because it was scaring me.

And then I feel really, I'm like, Oh, to me, it feels like a really light, fun book

because of all the puzzles that are in it with the kind of escape roomy challenges.

And I spent ages designing those.

And so it feels like a book of puzzles.

And then I remind myself that it is actually a crime thriller

and you know, it's dark there.

So obviously you have your Dr.

Bloom books.

And this is, yeah, separate to that franchise, it's differentt,

but the choice to have a pen name for this, was that your decision?

Was that something that was recommended to you?

Yes, yes.

It was requested, I suppose would be the nice way to say it.

They said, how would you feel about doing it under a separate name?

Because it is a bit different.

And I, fortuitously, I just got married and so my husband is Smithson.

And so, well, I wasn't taking his name in real life.

So I thought I could maybe put it on a book for him.

So he's rather chuffed.

His name is on the book.

Um, yeah, I think, you know, within that kind of business

side of publishing, really.

The idea of, oh, you could have a series and then maybe you can have another one

or even like some authors have multiple channels where they are very different.

I know a few crime thriller authors who also write kind of

romance and that kind of thing.

So, you know, there is that, that desire, I suppose, in writers to

be able to write other things.

And what's lovely is that my publishers, Transworld, have said,

you know, we, we want you to have multiple ways to express your writing.

So this is opening up a new avenue.

And hopefully I'll go back and do some more Bloom at some point.

But at the moment, this is just really lovely to be dealing with completely

new characters, really new situation.

Um, and it's challenging me, it's harder than doing the Bloom books.

And there's definitely, with the ending, again, treading lightly,

possibility to see characters again.

Yes.

Is that, I mean, it works great as a standalone, but yeah, is there

any thought, have you had any discussions, any sort of pie in

the sky ideas of maybe revisiting?

No, I haven't.

But that's interesting.

When my sister read the first draft, she was like, well, I can see what's

going to be coming in the followup.

And I was like, Oh no, the next book isn't a followup.

And I think she was quite taken aback with that.

But I always remember, so my, my English teacher back when I was at

school, Ken Lowe, I remember him saying, The books that tie everything

up at the end are forgettable.

And the books where you're left as a reader feeling a little bit

frustrated with unanswered questions, the ones that you will keep going

back to and keep revisiting.

And that really, really stuck with me.

And I really like leaving people with that feeling of what happens now?

because I think that's what life's like, isn't it?

You know, when we face drama in life, and we come across interesting people

in life, and then they go away, and you think, oh my god, what happened to that?

And that's quite a natural human curiosity.

I like to just leave that.

Obviously, it does give us a chance to go back, if we want to.

And because you've written a lot in a series, was there a sense

of relief of, Oh, I got that done.

I kind of got that out of my system.

Or was it grief of like, Oh, that was a fun side project, but now it's over.

Cause I, I feel that there's a mix and sometimes it can lean heavily into one way

or the other, depending on your workflow.

And obviously you've got a second job as a psychologist.

So you're fitting in the writing, getting it done, getting it

okay, that's all signed off.

The proofs are out, it's going to go to the printers.

Is that like, Oh, great, that's done, or, Oh, I'm not working

on that project anymore.

Uh, do you, do you tend to lean one way or the other?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I feel a bit bereft when it goes away.

I must admit that I get such a lot of intrinsic joy out of writing.

And even on those days where it's hard to get into it, as soon as I'm

in it, I don't want to leave it.

I don't want to walk away from it and it's quite intoxicating.

So when a book is done, I kind of feel a bit lost.

It's a bit like, it reminds me of doing exams as a kid where

you always look forward to the end of it and it being over.

And then that day it's over, you don't kind of know what to do with yourself.

And it's what I used to do before I was revising.

And this is a similar thing.

I find that the days are just too big and nothing to occupy

that creative desire that I have.

And so I will just roll into writing something else.

So with the, the book I'm writing at the moment, by the time the

publishers came back and said, Oh yeah, we like this idea for the second

book, go ahead, start writing it.

I think I was already 30, 000 words in.

I was like, okay, because I was just like, I like this idea.

So I'm just going to start.

And if it had not got taken up.

I would have, you know, parked it for later probably.

So the one you're working on at the moment, the shame book is a L.

D.

Smithson?

Here's L.

D.

Smithson Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

So, so that's another standalone.

So new characters, new kind of situation that they are facing.

Well, I've just got my last two questions, I think.

I think we've covered like so much ground today.

Leona, it's great, thank you.

Really good.

Yeah, good.

Um, now it's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their

writing with each story that they write.

Was there anything in particular that you learned through the

escape room that you're now applying to the shame based novel?

Yes, I think it is that actually spending more time at the

beginning, really thinking about the story I'm trying to tell.

And that was the kind of lesson I learned with my editor, Finn.

Where he wanted to know more about, well, who are these people

and where are they coming from?

And why have they gone on this show?

And so actually spending more time really thinking through that.

I've repeated that again because my characters are more rounded when I

arrive in the story and for me as a writer that's writing from the

point of view of what might they do next, that has really helped me.

And I can see already that the writing is getting better and that's

lovely when you see that happening.

because you're always just trying to be better each time, I think.

Um, so yes, definitely that, spending more time at the beginning, thinking it through

and then allowing myself freedom to evolve away from that when I get into it.

And was there one piece of advice that you return to when you're writing?

That one thing that motivates you through everything that you've done?

Yeah, and it's not from a writer, it's from a psychologist.

And there's a lady, Carol Dweck, out in America, professor of

psychology, who discusses this whole idea of the growth mindset.

So the fact that we're not born with particular skills or talents as

such, we learn everything as we go.

And what this means is that even if you want to become an author, but

you've never written anything, you can become an author if you're willing

to put the time and the effort in.

It might take you 10 years.

It might take 20 years, but you can do it if you're willing to

put the time and the effort in.

It's all about time and effort.

And that has really helped me along the way, because a lot of people

at the beginning, when I started writing, were very supportive.

But there was a bit of a, Oh, right, like eyebrow raising, this is all a bit silly.

And I think if you don't have that sense of, well, even if I just get better at it.

I don't have to be the best author in the world.

I don't have to, you know, meet some metric for what it means to be a writer.

If I enjoy writing and keep writing, I'll just get better at it.

And then what will happen that kind of kept me motivated and going.

No, that's great.

That's all we have time for this week, but LD Smithson thank you

very much for being my guest.

Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure, Tom.

Thank you.

And thank you to you and your wife.

I'll let her know.

Thank you.

And that's Leona.

LD Smithson telling you that if you put in the time and the effort.

You can achieve what you want to achieve.

Great words from a great lady and you should now go buy her book

because if I didn't rave about it enough during that interview.

Please check it out as soon as possible.

It really is phenomenal.

Uh, first week sales are always the best for the algorithm

and I promise it's worth it.

I say no to so many authors and books, because I want to bring you the best.

Trust me, Leona is the best.

Enough said.

Well, almost enough said you should go and look her up.

You can find her details about her books and her socials on

her website, Leonadeakin.co.uk.

I'll also have the link in the show notes and Google.

Uh, Now, a little personal update for me.

I don't like going into these things, but.

I'm going to start some new medical treatment soon.

So hopefully for me, better in the longterm.

But highly disruptive in the short term.

So I'm going to be on a little hiatus, unfortunately.

However I hope to be back and bringing you more podcasts episodes by the summer.

Um, also my wife has gone and had a nasty head injury.

Uh, because we both like spending all of our money on

private healthcare, apparently.

Um, so wish us both well.

And look after yourself better than a Pepperdine can.

And keep writing.

Until the world ends.