E189 Shownotes: The Football Sustainability Index  

In this episode, we delve into the transformative world of football sustainability.  

We explore the Football Sustainability Index, a groundbreaking initiative assessing clubs on their environmental impact, equality standards, financial sustainability, and community engagement.  

Joining us is Niall Couper from Fair Game, a volunteer-driven organisation dedicated to transforming the governance of football to ensure the sport contributes positively to its communities and operates sustainable. This episode uncovers the current challenges and vision for football’s sustainable future. 

What is the Football Sustainability Index? 

• The index assesses football clubs on environmental impact, equality standards, financial sustainability, and community engagement.  
• Football clubs are not just teams. They are community hubs offering services like dementia groups, walking football, food banks, and environmental programs. 

Current Challenges in Football: 

• The football culture often prioritises short-term gains through high player wages over long-term community investments. 
• The Premier League generates £3.19 billion annually, with most funds directed towards player wages, leaving minimal support for lower league clubs. 
• Example: For every £1,000 a Premier League club earns, only 15 pence goes to lower league clubs. Increasing this to £22 would greatly enhance community services. 

Long-Term Vision for Football: 

• Encouraging clubs to adopt long-term thinking can strengthen community ties and create a more sustainable football ecosystem. 
• Clubs like AFC Wimbledon and Lincoln City exemplify how a long-term approach can yield both social and financial benefits. 

Regulatory Framework and Financial Instability: 

• The football governance bill proposes an independent regulator to oversee financial distributions and ensure clubs meet sustainability criteria. 
• Since 2000, 64 clubs have gone into administration, with 58% of clubs in the top four divisions being technically insolvent. 

ESG and Equal Pay in Football: 

• Niall highlights Dale Vince’s Green Code initiative promoting sustainability in football. Will discusses the holistic approach, including veganism, at Forest Green Rovers. 
• Niall suggests rewarding clubs adhering to sustainable practices to drive cultural change. 
• Niall emphasises the need for financial incentives for clubs excelling in sustainability and advocates integrating the Green Code into a broader sustainability index. 
• Niall covers Scopes 1, 2, and 3 emissions tracking and the importance of long-term thinking in football management. 
• The podcast concludes by discussing Fair Game’s efforts to create an index for clubs based on sustainability, social impact, and financial stability. 

Resources: 

Football Sustainability Index 

Fair Game 

Dale Vince’s Green Code 

Mentioned in this episode:

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Charlie: And I'm Charlie Luxton, an architectural designer who focuses on sustainable buildings. In this episode, as usual, we're talking about sustainability, but we're venturing into slightly new territory. and talking about football and Niall Couper from Fair Game is joining us to talk about the problems in the sport and what needs fixing. Welcome Niall. So can you tell [00:01:00] us a little bit about what the sustainability index covers?

Niall: It covers a whole range of things, and it covers things like environmental impact, but also equality standards, financial sustainability, ban and community engagement, all things that are really quite fundamental to how a football club operates.

I think a lot of people have this maybe naive idea that it's just about 11 players on a Saturday afternoon, and that's what it's about. But actually, a lot of football clubs are hubs of their community. They represent history and traditions going back a long, long time. But also nowadays, a lot of football clubs will also provide services.

It's about actually sustaining that community and also sustaining the long term future and history of those clubs that. You know, we believe really are the center of so many communities up and down the country.

Charlie: So it's sort of looking at the full wraparound, I suppose, you know, the ESG, so the environment, the social and the governance side and picking up on all of those equally important sort of elements.

Niall: Yeah, it's exactly that. And I think where, where we're at with, with football is that it just kind of hasn't got into that space enough, you know, hasn't really championed those areas as much as it could be, we've got too much of a risk culture. What that basically means is that To succeed is seen to be, it's all about, um, spending loads of money, like paying loads of stuff on players wages.

With that, again, we've brought together. the clubs that care, if you like, the clubs that actually do think more long term about how football can be that force for good. And it's that voice we're really trying to amplify in the game and trying to get to a culture where football's finances and the financial flow starts rewarding those clubs.

And that's the kind of change that we're trying to get. It might sound radical but it's not. It's, it's all heading in that there's an opportunity now for it to change with a new football governance bill that's making its way through parliament and we're, we're hopeful that that's, uh, can lead to something quite You know, much more sustainable in football.

Niall: Every year, the Premier League receives of 3. 19 billion pounds, billion pounds, um, in football finances. Most of that will disappear on players wages, uh, over 85 percent of it stays within the Premier League, and not much of it goes down to clubs lower down the pyramid.

So what we're talking about is at the moment, um, A football club might spend £100, 000 on its community programme. Now remember that that's in sort of League 2 or something or the National League. At the moment 3. 19 billion is what the Premier League gets. So where that equates in a kind of simple way is for every 1, 000 that a club in the Premier League gets, 15 pence goes to a National League South or North club. So that's a club like that might be based in Tunbridge Wells or, um, Chester or Ebbsfleet or places like that. And there are [00:06:00] loads and loads of towns that are like that. They're getting just 15 pence. If you were to, Say double or triple, or if it goes to what the average attendance would be, which would take it to something like 22 pounds

Charlie: in a thousand, 22 pounds in a thousand.

So 2. 2,

Niall: 22 pounds,

Charlie: 2. 2%. Is my maths right there.

Yeah, something like that.

Niall: Yeah. So, but that difference, if you imagine in that local community. What is that club providing? What does it do for your, you know, the food banks, the dementia clubs I mentioned, you know, the kind of school programs that all these clubs do.

And you can actually look at ring fencing that money through those parameters about how that's done. If you have an effective regulator, that is an absolute game changer in so many communities and towns. And, you know, financially in terms of where we're all kind of pinching our belts, you know, there's no promise of any new tax rises.

Charlie: And one supposes then that if, if you apply that across the board to all of the premiership clubs, proportionately, you effectively just slightly reduce the pay capacity for top rates players or players in general, and say, well, we can divert a little bit of this money. down the food chain to grow the grassroots and to really help communities.

Niall: It is a bit of that, but it's about Short termism versus long termism. So, you know, one, actually, if you are, and also thinking outside the box, if you are a multi billionaire and all you're caring about is your own club, then the Premier League's attitude is fine because it defends your, actually makes you richer.

But if you're thinking about the health of football in the country. And you're thinking about actually making football clubs a hub of a community that provides a service and gets people, you know, if you, if you're running community programs, if you're running those school programs and those food banks and the dementia clubs and, you know, uh, environmental programs.

So you have. Stronger base. You have more talent coming through. Remember that the current England team bar one or two of all come through from lower league clubs originally. So you have this greater talent pool. You have this greater community connection and a great community connection actually probably means more people coming through the door, more people buying the merchandise and so on.

Um, and that's, that's, I think. a really positive potential direction of travel. We'd hope, you know, that, that a new government takes on board.

Will: It's using sustainability as a whole, isn't it? And actually, um, I can see this firsthand with AFC Wimbledon. And the community and the way that that football team resonates with the whole of that community.

I'm from Wimbledon, and my mum is not a football fan at all. But, I tell you what, she loves AFC Wimbledon because they do the food banks, because they, they do so much that you've just talked about. And, I think that that's really powerful because one of my questions was, well, why is, you know, what's, that's great having these great things to do, but what's, what's in it for football, but you've just described exactly what it is in football.

Niall: Exactly that. That's because it is more than just the match, you know, it's more than just the 11 players or whatever that squad is. It's about that kind of connection and that affinity and it is realizing that football can be a force for good.

Can actually help shape and bring those communities together and offer something, a connection, um, that is one of the big things behind sustainability. Uh, I mean, I admit Will, I didn't, I didn't know you, your mum was an AFC Wimbledon fan. I mean, I was on the board of AFC Wimbledon for a while. So I'm happy to hear all of that.

Will: And my brother was one of the people that, Um, put money into AFC Wimbledon as well.

Niall: Oh, well, there you go. I mean, you know, as a, we were, we're all volunteers at AFC Wimbledon at that, that level. I was a directly elected fan onto the board. So, um, uh, it's, it's a real, we, we did a quite an active thing about trying to be that kind of community club.

Will: Yeah. You

Niall: know, we've all been a bit frustrated because football in a lot of places didn't have that ethos and the clubs that were picking up the phone and complaining about it were just one club, you know, the voice was small.

And what the key was to bring those like minded clubs together to say, actually, there is an alternative future for football. There is something that is richer and better. I mean, you know, for those AFC Wimbledon fans, the results have been pretty shocking. And last season was an exception, but they're pretty shocking for five years, but the clubs, actually grown in terms of its community reach and its sustainability because that's the active way they've done.

And it means that over time the club is much more healthier because of the approach that we've taken. And that is being replicated in other places. Like another club would be like Lincoln city. We've seen slow growth, but they've got massive commitment towards their community and what, and their outreach and their sustainable approach.

Charlie: So who is currently regulating football, uh, you know, and who are you seeking to effectively usurp through this, the football governance bill?

Niall: So that's really interesting. So if you looked at who, how, who controls football rather than governs football, that's, that's the kind of connection because the governance of football should be the FAA. But the actual purse strings, and you know, it is one of those, you have to follow the money, of who's controlling football, it's the Premier League.

Um, you know, the Premier League are the ones who fund a whole range of things, but the most of the money from the FA comes through from Premier League's participation in the FA Cup. The Professional Football Association is majority funded by the Premier League. The League Managers Association, majority funded by the Premier League.

That's, that's who runs the premier league whose sole interest is in the growth and the Uh, income generation for the 20 clubs of the Premier League, that's their remit. You know, they do a fantastic job. If you looked at their business model about making more money for midge billionaires, they're great at it, but they're the ones who control the game.

So then, you know, naturally as a billionaire owner of a Premier League football club, why would you particularly care about what's happening at Carlisle or, or, um, Ebbsfleet or Tunbridge Angels or, you know, Darlington or Gateshead or Lincoln or whatever, it's, it's not really of your interest, you know, why would that matter?

Charlie: And how do you see the, the, the current bill and what does it set out and how does it change that structure?

Niall: See, the, the bill is almost there, but it needs slight improvements, and I think we've seen quite a good, uh, noise coming from, uh, the, the political parties about trying to improve it.

So the, the bill has a section, I could bore you with the clauses, I've read it far too many times, and I'll, I'll wait, but the, there's a section there. Uh, you know, I could, you know, question me, say what's on page 36. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's part six for those of you who, who,

Charlie: thanks man. I'm making a note.

I'm noting this down. Yeah.

Niall: Clause 58.

Charlie: Yes. Got it. 58. Yep. Yep.

So out of those, which sounds okay, except that the voting, when you're looking at the voting structure of those two organizations, that's a bit flawed. And it actually doesn't look at the wider ecosystem of football beyond the, the low reach of the EFL and certainly their national league and the lower league and on all the rest of it and doesn't really address some of the issues we're talking about here.

Is it investing in equality standards? Has it got environmental issues? And the clubs that do, that score well are the ones that should get a larger slice of that pie. Obviously, there's still a divisional weighting, but that starts to encourage clubs to spend responsibly. At the moment. There is no encouragement for a club to spend responsibility.

In fact, completely opposite. The encouragement is to try and overspend so you can make this big jump. And there is a huge jump between divisions financially to get to that next level. And the only way you're going to progress up the pyramid is to massively overspend and hope that you succeed. And if you don't, then frankly, you go bust club goes to administration. Loads of local businesses go out. business, they go bankrupt, which we've seen 64 times since the turn of the century. So it's really quite common.

Niall: Gone into administration.

Charlie: Gone into administration.

Niall: Right, so they don't go bust. The club name still exists, but what you see is all the local suppliers who, uh, are owed money by that club, basically getting either nothing or 1p the pound,

which is basically

Charlie: How many clubs are there roughly that, you know, the 64 gone bust, out of how many?

Niall: That would be out of 92.

Charlie: What?

Will: Wow. That's a huge percentage.

Niall: Remember though, that there are some clubs that have gone into administration multiple times. So it's not like,

Will: Oh, okay.

Niall: I think in that period, Portsmouth may have gone into administration three times in that period or something like that.

Charlie: We're still talking about over 50 percent failures, like structural failures, well over 50 percent of the time. I mean, that is a.

Niall: Yeah.

Charlie: That is a business that desperately needs some sort of regulation, right? I mean,

That means if their owner was to walk away tomorrow, turn off the financial tap, that club would be bust. They only survive because there is a benefactor pumping money into that club. And that benefactor is basically pumping money into that club because they're trying to look to see where they can jump up to that next financial level.

So they're gambling and what they're gambling with is they're gambling with the history and traditions of that club, but they're also gambling with the livelihood of all of those suppliers who helped that club.

Will: Okay. So moving in, moving back to. The ESG kind of conversation, and we were talking about players being paid, you know, equal pay between women and male.

Niall: So yeah, interesting both of those. So let's pick up with Dale. Dale's been behind something called the green code, um, which is, uh, a really good positive step within football where Fair Game would want to take the green code is to the point that that becomes part of the sustainability index, which, you know, we, we want to adapt and strengthen the, the index.

Um, because if you start rewarding financially football clubs, then you will start seeing them going, you'll have the chief financial officer that kind of going like, Oh, if we'd stop taking these environmental measures and these social impact measures and these community measures, it actually leads to more financial resource for the club, and that's where we think you will see that change.

I mean, it's one of the great conversations I had with DCMS to say, if you want culture change tomorrow, reward it.

Charlie: So just to say, Dale Vince is the founder of Ecotricity, isn't he? And he's picked, he's, he bought forest green rovers, am I correct? And has got a very ambitious plan for the stadium for transport and for green energy and food and all of that kind of stuff, hasn't he?

Niall: He's behind the, the green code and it's not, um, um, we've had conversations with forest green rovers. The, I'm going to make Dale sound a little bit, not, not quite as brilliant as we all might like is that, um, is that Dale sees himself as a trailblazer and it's very much his baby.

Will: Yeah.

Niall: So, you know, it's, it's about for us, we're about collaboration.

So we would love Dale to come on board and endorse the, the Fair Game index and to really help us embed the green code within it. Um, and that's, that's where we're at. Dale hasn't quite gotten to that space yet, but you know,

Will: Well, if he cares about football, he probably will. Because it makes sense to actually work together as a football, you know, in unity.

Will: He is one of my heroes.

Charlie: And what about, what about changes that have been, so the governance thing I completely see. And I suspect you're, you're, you're, you're sort of. Strategy is that if we get the governance right, everything will flow from that the social and then hopefully we get to the environmental.

I mean, do we do we have a handle on the impacts of football environmentally? I mean, as as a pastime, do we understand quite how, uh, how much carbon is producing football attendances? What are we doing to try and challenge that and tackle that? Is that is that in the agenda at all yet?

Niall: Yeah, I mean, it's starting to, so we're seeing stuff about scope one and scope two, there's scope two and scope three, sorry, that's happening.

Um, twofold. I mean, one is. morally and environmentally sensible and responsible where football needs to go. And then, you know, the fact that we have a lot of teams that have been taking short haul flights, you know, going quite a while, I'm flying from Manchester to London, therefore I'll fly when there's a perfectly reasonable train service that can do it.

And it's probably quicker. Um, you know, those sorts of things shouldn't be happening. The kind of stuff where you look at. Whereas your, your local, uh, getting your food from a local, um, sources rather than shipping in from miles and miles away, there's loads of stuff like that that can be addressed and we're starting to see clubs beginning to think like that.

And, you know, we have that. We have that kind of now quite detailed analysis that will tell you who are the good clubs and who are the bad clubs. And it's that, again, it's that culture change that we need to really get over the line. Football is unfortunately run by an awful lot of people that are, you know, look a bit like me, which is kind of, you know, early 50s grey hair.

I'm just saying that, you know, that there's, there's a gen, there's a generation gap that still needs to be, you know, an education that still needs to happen.

Charlie: Absolutely. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I'm interested. Could you, without sort of wishing to name and shame, could you give us an example of a club that Is that the very bottom of the index in a club that's at the very top and maybe give us a narrative as to, to, to what they're doing to, to be in those positions. Is that, is that something you're allowed to do? Is that a bit unfair? I don't, I don't really know.

Niall: I mean, whether it's unfair or not, I mean, um,

Will: that's what the index is about, isn't it? I mean, I think

Charlie: I hope so. Yeah.

Will: Yeah,

Niall: when we our last analysis was not in forests, had something like five hours worth of reserves. Um, you know, so obviously not very sustainable. Um, On the flip side, clubs like Lincoln and Carlisle were doing very well because they score, they score really well on equality and diversity and environmental measures, where they're really taking that in a very proactive stance.

And what we need to do is get more people to be thinking long term about that sustainability and their role they have in a community, um, than the short term gambler.

Will: We heard a while ago about Thornby FC, which is a club in Stockton on Tees, which axed the entire women's side because of financial problems. Is this what happens in clubs?

Niall: Yeah, exactly. So you're looking at when you've got, this is the whole left back scenario, right? I want to sign a left back and pay him a certain amount of money, right? But to do that, I've got to make cuts elsewhere. And the priority has become the left back over the women's team.

You, um, you know, your backroom staff and you kind of support stuff. If you want to sign your third choice left back.

Will: And it goes back to what you said right at the beginning about how you look after the grass roots and you actually look after everything around you there. Then actually. You get the momentum all the way through, and I would hazard a guess there's a lot of women in Stockton On Tees that are a bit like, who cares about football, you know, because they go, they don't care about us.

Niall: Exactly. So in that situation, does that club become a hub of its community or does it not? Longer term?

Will: Yeah.

Niall: You know, you'll be going, right?

Will: Yeah.

Niall: You know, you'll be going there with. a bit disgruntled. It's the casual fan. It's the person who wants to have that connection. It's going to be like, well, you know, I'm put off.

I don't, I don't want to, I don't feel part of that, that community or that club.

Niall: Yeah. I mean, the other thing to remember is that a lot of clubs live hand to mouth. So they're really, um, You know, they're really struggling just for their day to day existence and actually having the ability to think about all these things is actually really quite difficult for them. And I think this is the space that Fair Game has moved into is, you know, we see ourselves as that 12th player that the, um, the clubs haven't, you know, Got the time to do that.

We'll do the thinking, we'll do the analysis. They, um, Fair Game begins by club setting us saying, these are the problems in the game. How do you fix it? What do you do? And we, we take that problem and try and solve it and come out with realistic solutions, which is where the index comes through from in the first place.

Charlie: So are you also hoping or expecting that as you identify good actors within the space that you will be able to lead sponsors to align their agendas with good actors and to sort of, you know, create a virtuous circle in that element as well as having from a sort of a more sort of central control, uh, sort of area.

And financially we're really secure. We had very good business model, most independent financial analysis was saying we were fine. And you get to the last question and be like, are you a football club? And you go, yes. Um, And that's because, and that's because the people who are investing in football right now are often your gamblers or your kind of people who are looking at that short termism.

So if you can start getting more ethical investment and football is seen as more of a safer and securer place than a place that's got ticks all those boxes that you're talking about, actually you can potentially get more investment into the game for, for the right reasons. And that's one of the things I think a lot of ethical companies would be like, why do I want to associate myself with football?

And until that changes, then it's going to be a struggle.

Charlie: And do you think, do you think the big clubs see that? Do you think they understand the potential to sort of open up to new funding streams, or is that counter to their sort of vested interests?

Niall: Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a mix of both, isn't it? So you will have clubs that will be, you know, number one in a lot of the big clubs is The financial, financial benefit of the big club, where they get their money from doesn't necessarily matter for most of the big clubs, you know, what they could see is if the direction of travel within football's investment was actually, if you start investing in the right things, then you're going to get more money.

Um, societal movement, which there is going on as we both touched on, or whether it's more direct government legislation with saying, these are the parameters you need to do.

That's what needs to happen to see those changes. They are very few of the top clubs are going to be.

Um, and so. They've got a different, and how would they, how do they fit in with what they're doing, just out of curiosity, because they're, they are footballers inside that care obviously passionately about football.

Niall: So, yeah, no, the, the issue slightly with Salford is what would happen to Giggs and David Beckham got bored with Salford City?

Will: Well, this is my, I don't, I actually don't know because I don't know enough about it, but I, I can see from them outside that it's a unique kind of proposition that's going on there.

Niall: Yeah. So, I mean, it's similar with Wrexham, um, that if the people who are pumping money into those two clubs were to walk away, both of those clubs would be financially unsustainable tomorrow.

Will: Interesting.

Interesting. Okay.

you're looking to try and sort of bring the best learnings from. Because you know, in many ways, if you can solve this in football, man, that maybe we can solve it in loads of different areas and we're really onto something here.

Niall: I think, I think B Corp is a really interesting example. So, you know, what's your, what you've seen with B Corp is you've started to see businesses working together and sharing that kind of ethos and the kind of more ethical consumer going like, well, I'm going to choose a B Corp because I know what a B Corp means.

So it's, are those, that group of people that can come together to try and actually support each other and develop things, because that The more powerful that group becomes, the more likely you are to see change in that wider area. So it's those bring those people together. That's where I think the power of a big, the B Corp movement is growing, right?

Charlie: Could we touch on fair, could we touch on Fair Game for a second? Because I don't, I don't know a great deal. I mean, who are you? When was it formed? Because it seems to me you're trying to take on an incredibly large business. There's an enormous amount of ambition in what you're trying to do.

Niall: Yes. So I'll go for the, the, the Fair Game story quickly.

So the Fair Game story is, um, you know, I am an AFC Wimbledon fan, we mentioned it, uh, and I've been on the boards. A couple of times. The second time we came onto the board, my manifesto was, well, what can AFC... For those who don't know what AFC Wimbledon was, AFC Wimbledon is a club that was created when, uh, the owners decided to move the club to 60 miles away.

And we said, no, we're not having that. We're going to set up our own club in our, in the community that we were still existing. So that's how AFC Wimbledon came about. Um, Then fast forward 20 years, I was going, well, what is, how can AFC Wimbledon and take our kind of community ethos and use that influence the wider world of football?

You know, we want to make a difference. We want to champion good governance and equality standards of community engagement and fan engagement in environmental measures and so on. Um, so I began to bring those clubs together and those clubs grew from being one club to three to five to 10 and now 34 men's professional football clubs who all of that same ethos, and they empower Fair Game as a, Entirely volunteer organization of now 80 people who go out and lobbying campaign and develop policies.

And that's basically how, how our model works. Um, Uh, you know, and it's, it's run by a lot of passionate people who believe football can be a force for good.

Charlie: Fantastic. Wow. That's a story. So you're completely volunteer, you're a volunteer.

Niall: I am a volunteer. Yeah. Uh, we're, we are looking to move towards being, uh, a paid organization.

So there's a, there's a, obviously a fundraising element to what we're trying to do and, you know, working with those kind of moral clubs and speaking to kind of B Corps and so on that, that's where we really keen to get money in to help us become more. Ourselves more sustainable, you know, cause passion takes you a certain way and we wouldn't have 80 active volunteers and those are quite skilled volunteers.

So, but yeah. Yes, I'm a volunteer. Yes. I. I'm dedicated to it, but you know, I'm a passionate football fan who believes that we can do something quite amazing with our national game.

Charlie: Are all, I mean, 34, you mentioned 34 clubs, why isn't, why aren't all the clubs members? What do you think is a barrier to membership?

Why do you think this is not completely embraced by all of them?

Niall: I think there's two things. One of which is that there is an element of short termism. Uh, there's an element about actually there are people that overspend and are quite happy to be overspending, you know, that don't really quite like the gambling culture within football and want to do that.

Will: Of course. I mean, if you've got, if you've got five hours of, um, you know, time left, then you're absolutely only going to be thinking about the five hours left. You'll carry on doing what you're doing because you've always done it. And that makes complete sense. It'd be very hard to change that mentality as well.

Niall: Exactly that. So this is the whole bit about reward culture. So if you start rewarding football, uh, clubs to be better than that, my God, tomorrow you'll find them crafting out more than five hours a week or whatever to do that. Or, you know, that five hours will become like, well, here's how we can do that.

And this is what we need to be doing because it's actually financially beneficial. And I think over time, if we did that, then it would be become the norm, the practice, the normal practice to be, uh, kind of ethical and sustainable. Um, but you need to start somewhere. And you need to get people thinking. in a different way.

Will: Funnily enough, I think I'm thinking of even just mental health. What you are proposing would be so much less stressful. I can, like, can you imagine being in a position where you are constantly having to make sure that you keep the lights on and it's a massive battle?

That's stressful. That's not, you know, that's not sustainable from a, from a, you know, wellbeing point of view.

Niall: I mean, I talk about my time on the board. So we spent a lot of time trying to make sure all those questions were addressed and dealt with. And then at the same time, you've got a team that's losing on the pitch.

So it's, it's, it is a very stressful place to be in, which is kind of where the advantage of being fair game is because we're kind of removed from the results element side of it that we can kind of help people concentrate on doing the right thing.

Charlie: When do you think the football governance bill will be passed? When are we actually going to see these, these wonderful ambition, um,

Niall: So it really depends on whether it makes the King's Speech or not in the first session, because it was very close. It failed when the general election was called, so it had already begun the committee stages, so literally it was probably about two weeks away from, two or three weeks away from making legislation.

I mean, there is already a shadow regulator operating. There is a, a department that's operating within civil service days, looking at all of these things. There are roles that have been hired. Um, But it needs to have that little bit extra to kind of go there and that's about making sure it's in that King's Speech.

It is, you know, we lobbied really hard and it was in, you know, it was in the Labour, the Tory and the Lib Dem manifestos. So, you know, for having it in. So there is a commitment. We just need to make sure that commitment comes soon.

Charlie: I have to say there is something, uh, refreshing and Energizing about the ambition, you know, of what you're doing and the fact that 80 volunteers are taking on a multi billion pound industry and that you feel that empowered enough and confident enough that you're actually going to make a difference.

Niall: Thank you very much, Charlie. I mean, you know, that's, that's, you know, I think my, my mantra is, you know, we are here to try and make the world a better place. If this is a little step that I can do, then it, it's great.

And, uh, you know, there's, there's nothing more motivating for me than taking on a couple of multi-billionaires.

Will: I think you're in the right time, right place. I mean, look at the Better Business Act. It's a similar type than what you are doing. So you've got things going through Parliament now that is all about this.

So. I, you know, this is going to happen. This is going to succeed, isn't it?

Niall: Well, our fingers massively crossed. It takes the political will for it to happen and for the politicians to be brave enough to take on those multi billionaires and go, right, you know, let's do something that's good for all those communities where all those clubs are.

And so the fact that you know, you're focusing on that you're getting this stuff out in the daylight. I think it makes it very hard to ignore. So carry on and hopefully you will revolutionize. football to become the driving force of good in the heart of communities across the country. Well, thank you very much, Niall.

And that's it for this episode of Sustainability Solved. Next month, we're going to be talking about the supply chain and a new kind of trackable palette. Make sure you hit follow in your app so you get notified as soon as that episode drops.

Will: And for questions and more information on sponsorship opportunities, email [email protected] and if you've enjoyed what you've heard today, please do leave us a review in the podcast app. It is really, really appreciated. Thanks for listening. I'm Charlie Luxton. And I'm Will Richardson.