Today's discussion centers around the intersection of coaching and personal identity, with a specific focus on how one's background, beliefs, and lived experiences shape coaching relationships. I share insights from personal experiences and address common misconceptions about integrating identity into professional coaching.

00:00 Introduction to Coaching and Identity

00:34 Defining Coaching Intersectionality

04:38 Intersectionality in Coaching

05:33 Navigating Identity in Coaching

08:03 Affinity Bias in Coaching

11:18 Lived Experience and Coaching

12:37 Context and Socialisation in Coaching

17:34 Intentionality in Choosing a Coach

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Hello folks and welcome to another

episode of After The Hustle.

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Today I want to talk about something that

almost feels like a question that has

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gone unanswered, um, definitely by me,

but I think just in general, um, something

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that I think we should be considering

when it comes to engaging in coaching

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services, um, deciding who to work with as

a coach, but also, um, Just thinking about

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how we engage with others in general.

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Um, and ultimately, this episode is

either going to be called Coaching an

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Identity or Coaching Intersectionality.

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Okay?

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Intersectionality.

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Which is something that I made up,

like, as a phrase that goes together.

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Right, just to be clear, like you're not

going to Google it and find some journals

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and research on coaching intersectional.

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You might, I don't know, my

hope is there is more research

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into this space as time goes on.

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But ultimately it stems

from a conversation that I

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had many, many years ago.

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Um, and this was at an event when I was

explaining what I do to someone, right?

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Um, and this was after we

had a conversation about my

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Christianity and my faith.

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Um, and they basically asked, how

does being a coach work with God?

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Um, you know, in terms of like,

you sound like you're someone's

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guru and stuff like that.

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Like that was, that was the kind of rabbit

hole that they were going down, that

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like, I tell people what to do type vibe.

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And you all know that

that's not my vibe at all.

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And then ultimately I shared with

her that it's different, right?

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Having a conversation and

reflecting on what you think your

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own solutions can really easily

lead to your own decision to pray.

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Like that's a perfectly

acceptable outcome for anybody.

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Right.

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And when I say pray, I use

that as like an insert your own

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spiritual practices, if any, right.

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But coaching doesn't block off.

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you having that part of your

life, having those values, those

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beliefs, um, those practices.

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In fact, it's very complementary to it.

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You know, and I mentioned, you

know, at the end of the day, right,

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reflective practice of any kind works

really, really well because bottom

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line is I'm not guru, not priest.

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Yes, I do teach a mentor.

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in, in a lot of my services, but

by no means am I wanting folks to

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really submit to my guidance, um,

in the way that they maybe would a

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holy text or faith or spirituality.

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And in fact, if I find somebody who

feels that way or approaches me in that

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way or builds, builds that professional

relationship in that way, I actually

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see that as a really huge red flag.

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A huge part of my work and my

attraction to coaching is that it

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put us back into our sovereignty.

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Over our lives and how we choose to

live them and my role is to really help

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people to amplify that right many of you

will hear me talk about You know, the

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fact that we're socialized to give our

power away, we're socialized to give our

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decision making our thoughts away and

refer to everyone else but ourselves.

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Right.

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Um, and when I talk about that, I think

there's a huge part where people can

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think that means that I am discounting.

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I'm saying that you shouldn't listen

to, um, your spirituality or your

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faith in the same way that you maybe

shouldn't listen to maybe an overbearing

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lecturer or a parent who wants to

emulate you in their image or, you

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know, all of those sort of things

and it's very, very different, right?

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And I say it from my perspective and

my understanding of, um, of a lot of

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faiths, right, around the world is that

there is an element of God being above

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us or this, you know, the, the universe

or whatever you want to sort of describe

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it as being above us and then, um,

next in line is us as humans, right?

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We were given dominion

over the earth, etc, etc.

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You can find so many different holy texts

that just talk about, Us being more and

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more intentional in our lives because we

have been given the huge responsibilities

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to really care for this earth, the

planet, the people on it, etc, etc.

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And again, I'm trying to share this

in a very agnostic way because we

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reall like the reality is, regardless

of whether you are, um, a fan of

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organized religion, um, whether you

describe yourself as more spiritual than

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religious, uh, whether you don't believe,

um, and you identify as an atheist,

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like, It's, it's all good with me.

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Like it's all the same.

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I just want to put it, I want to put it

in context as to where that sits in terms

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of a coaching relationship, but also be

very honest about where I sit, um, as a

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coach who has worked with people who don't

identify as being spiritual or religious,

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um, all the way to people who, identify

as being Christian, identify as being

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Muslim, identify as being Jewish, right?

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All of these things, it doesn't combat

and I see no reason why it should.

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And ultimately when it comes to my

use of the word intersectionality,

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I love it because um, it's really

the layering of our identity and

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this was a term that was coined and

researched really heavily by Dr.

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Kimberley Crenshaw, um, and

she observed so many different

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instances of seemingly, you know,

same, same, but different people.

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And I said that with

air quotations, right?

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Experiencing life differently due

to a facet of their identity, right?

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And a lot of her work looked at how

white women versus black women, um,

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faced the criminal justice system and

got, you know, completely different

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sentences for exactly the same crime.

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And she also just reflected on her

experience as a black academic versus a

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black woman who isn't in academia, right?

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And how she's treated, how

she moves through the world.

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And when I think about this concept,

I think it's important to uncover

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what this also means for coaching and

what it has meant for coaching, right?

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And even though I've opened talking

about a layer of my identity being

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my faith, we can talk about so many

different areas of, you know, my

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identity, because I can only speak from

my experience, but, you know, insert

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your own there in these examples, right?

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The reality is I navigate the

world as a black woman with ADHD.

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This means that I tend to attract

clients who relate in some way,

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although I have never actually specified

gender, race, or, um, gender identity.

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You know, any other sort of

identity inside my content.

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I do share perspectives from my

own, I do share my pronouns, etc.

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Um, But it's something that I think

is kind of there but not spoken about.

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Um, and I think, especially as we

kind of approach this area where I'm

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seeing a shift in the industry towards

a lot of people becoming certified as

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neurodiversity coaches, ADHD coaches.

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And again, I feel like this is just an

extension of people, you know, being

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coaches for women, coaching for Christian.

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Right, it's the same thing as

somebody saying I'm a coach

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for a particular identity.

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I think there's also something to

be said for those of us who choose

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not to specify a specific identity

in our work and what that then means

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for the people who work with us.

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But also more than anything, I want

it to prompt thought in how you

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decide who you decide to work with.

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And I say that knowing that I may

finish this episode today and you

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go, actually I'm never going to

work with that jazz girl again.

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I'm fine with that because my

mission is all about giving you

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all the insight that you need to

make the best decision for you.

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And if I am not the best coach

for you, that's all, heck, I will

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introduce you to somebody, right?

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And I think it's a similar journey that we

take when we, um, look at therapy, right?

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I know when I was looking for a

therapist, I wanted one who understood

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ADHD, not just neurodiversity, but ADHD

in general, so that they would have

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some built in compassion towards my

experiences and how my brain is wired.

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This is not me saying, Oh, I

want a therapist, who has ADHD.

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No, because by and large, By no means

do you need to have the lived experience

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to be able to extend compassion.

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If that was the case, we'd be in

a very sad state as, humanity.

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Um, but I want to know that you've

done the work to understand.

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You've done the work to really

reconcile it within your work.

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You've done the work to make a safe

opening for me, within our work together.

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So there's three things that came to mind.

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Um, and, ways that you can think

about the role your identity plays

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in the support that you receive,

both in life, but also career, right?

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I'm going to talk from the

position of a career coach.

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So the first thing is

affinity bias, right?

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And you may have heard of this within

your bog standard DEI bias training at

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work that everyone is forced to, uh,

go through in some way, shape or form.

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Um, conversation for another day for sure.

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But ultimately the reality is we all

tend to like people like us, right?

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And affinity bias means that, you

know, a picture of me versus one

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of my maybe white blonde colleagues

may appeal to you differently

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at a subconscious level, right?

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And this is something to be

wary of because we exist in

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a world of smoke and mirrors.

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And ultimately, if you find yourself

unduly led by this, I want you to sense

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check that you're not being manipulated

by somebody's, um, branding, right?

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I've been there, I've done that, I've worn

the t shirt, I looked at that person, I

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go, you get me because you look like me,

and then entered that space and found that

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it couldn't be further from the truth.

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Now, In the previous episode, I spoke

about how intentional I am with my

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photo shoots and The things that I

speak about the things that I share

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and all of those things and this is to

share Yes, my story my vulnerability.

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Oh a thousand percent.

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A lot of it is brand, right?

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It's me being intentional about

like what do I want folks to know?

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about me But there is a big space

that, you know, for me, when I, I

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work and I move through the world as

a career coach, as somebody who owns

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a business and establishes a brand

in some way, shape or form, you know,

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affinity biases, also some of the

reason why you'll see me use diverse

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stock imagery, for instance, right?

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So I'm not saying these biases to say,

okay, nobody, everybody should just

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like choose their coach based on their

coaching school, their certification.

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That's not what I'm saying

in any way, shape or form.

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But I'm just saying, um, be mindful of

how that may influence your decision.

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Right?

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Okay.

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You may see a pretty picture and a cute

aspirational home or, you know, they

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go to Pilates and you go to Pilates.

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That's cool.

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We're still going to go

and check references.

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We're still going to go.

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and read the sales page.

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We're still going to have a

chat with them and see if that

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chemistry is genuinely there.

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Because again, when we look at a

lot of the things that we can be

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attached to when it comes to affinity

bias, they don't necessarily play

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a key role in our work together.

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Right?

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So if we talk about, um, my

favorite food or my race or the

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music that I listen to, right.

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I told you all love R& B,

always down to talk about R& B.

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Are we going to spend 15 minutes

in a session talking about R& B?

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No.

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Right.

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That's never going to be center stage.

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I don't want anybody to choose

me because we can wax lyrical

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about Jhene Aiko's latest album.

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That is not the vibe, but it is

almost an ancillary feature, right?

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It's a thing that you get that

helps you feel more comfortable.

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It helps you feel more understood.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So that's what I'm trying to say

here is when it comes to that, we

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just want to check in on it, right.

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Um, what assumptions am I

making about this person?

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And if they matter to me, we

want to check that they're true.

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right?

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We want to check that they're true.

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Um, so that's just one thing

to kind of think about.

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So the first one being affinity bias.

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The next thing is lived experience, right?

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And this is thinking more about the

conscious side of things, right?

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You may be more comfortable with

someone who has shared, uh, you know,

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lived experience or expertise, right?

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When I sought out therapy, as I mentioned

before, I wanted to work with therapists

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who are trained in anxiety, depression,

or ADHD, or all three, that'd be a bonus.

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That's great.

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Unicorn status.

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But in my mind, it was a great way for

me to reduce the amount of context I'd

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have to give or uncomfortable details

that I wouldn't need to explain.

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For example, a panic attack,

they would know what that is.

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Hyper focus, right?

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Uh, overstimulation, right?

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These are terms that are connected

to my experience of ADHD.

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These are things that I knew would

be important to my work, right?

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But on the flip side of it, I'm Jamaican.

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Does my therapist need to speak Patois?

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No.

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So again, as I said with the affinity

bias, we want to be mindful, okay?

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These lived experiences that I am

attracted to or actually intentionally

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seeking out, how important are

they to the work that I want to do?

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Will it allow me to feel

more heard and understood?

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Will it allow us to skip me feeling the

burden of having to explain or to teach?

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Or is it just superfluous, right?

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Is it just vibes?

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And then the third thing is

context and socialization.

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Like, can you tell that I did A Level

in Sociology with this other thigh?

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I feel cute.

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Anyway, context and socialization.

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So much of my work really involves

showing and telling high achievers

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how they can have boundaries.

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I talk about boundaries.

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ambition without hustle.

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This episode, though, this whole podcast

is called After the Hustle, right?

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We've got goals without guilt.

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We're all about releasing

all of those things.

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But ultimately, when this high achiever

is an elder sibling, second or third

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generation person of color, it hits

different or it doesn't hit at all.

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And this is because we're

socialized for survival and often

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boundaries and say no somewhere.

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So, um, can really feel like you're on

that sliding scale of rude, ungrateful

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or downright privileged, right?

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It's a must be nice thing

in the cultural context.

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And I'm sharing this as a very tangible

example that actually in different

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cultural contexts and different

socialization, right, the things that

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I teach, the hill that I stand on, the

soapbox that I stand on can actually be

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quite an affront to your entire upbringing

in many ways facets of your identity.

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And so that's another thing that I want

you to consider when it comes to your

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work with a coach or any, um, I would say

oral therapist or service provider, right?

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If that matters to you, to get

some understanding, um, of the

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context and that things will play.

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And what I'm saying here, right, this is

not me saying only work with people who

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have the exact same background as you.

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That's not what I'm saying.

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What I'm saying is you either decide

that it's important to you that they

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have a similar lived experience,

or you decide that you are willing

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and prepared to share insights.

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Right, because again, even myself as a

coach, I'm always being educated by my

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clients on techniques and frameworks

and, you know, um, theory and philosophy

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from different parts of the world

and beliefs and their perspective.

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I'm being let into their world

and that's something that I

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see as a privilege and I take.

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As an honor, um, and I always

soak up with, with a lot of, um,

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humility, should I say, right?

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I will never pretend that I know

everything about every culture.

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And I will definitely be the coach

where you go, do you know what that is?

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Or have you heard of that?

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And I will say no, right?

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I will say no.

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I won't wax lyrical with you and pretend

that I know what you're talking about.

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Because it's important for you

to know where you're at in life.

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you have space to begin and

where my knowledge ends.

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So what I say with this in terms of the

cultural context and that socialization

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is to just be mindful, as with the

two before, how important is this

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to you and is it a tangible thing?

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that you want to be important to you.

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So I use the example of being

eldest sibling, second or third

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generation person of colour.

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I am an eldest sibling.

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There are some jokes I'ma laugh at with

you if you're also an eldest sibling.

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It brings a new dynamic to my perspective.

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Do I force this perspective

into every session?

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No, I don't.

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No, I don't because it's

not required by my client.

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My sessions are always led by my client.

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The spaces that we go

into are led by my client.

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I'm always opening my mouth quite

literally in service to my client.

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Is this anecdote relevant?

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Is this supportive?

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Is this something that you said was

important to you on the consultation call?

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I have had calls with people.

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Consultation calls with clients who

have come out straight up and just said,

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look, I want to work with a coach who

understands what it's like to be the only.

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in a particular environment, who

understands what it's like to navigate

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microaggressions and to give me actual

tools to work through it as opposed to

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some platitude like, oh, just um, you

know, rise above it, you know, when they

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go low, you go high, all of that stuff.

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Do you know what I mean?

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They were very straightforward with

me and it meant that throughout our

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work, what that did is it gave me

permission to say when this happened

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to me, Here is the phrase that I use.

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This is what I said, I felt anger.

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Oh, a thousand percent, right?

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And again, this is in service

of the client to exemplify to

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them that they're not alone.

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And I know that it is difficult to

be other, to be the token, to be, um,

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the outlier in a working environment.

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Right.

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And again, I'm really clear with people.

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Um, I don't think I've said it before

on the podcast, but I always say to

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people, I do about a 70, 30 split.

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70 percent is pure coaching, 30 percent

you're going to get that mentor, right?

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If you ask me, Jaz, what would you do?

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What's your tool?

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What's your framework?

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If you ask me for a supportive

resource, you're going to get that.

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If you ask me for my own experience,

you're going to get that, but

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you're always going to have to ask

for it because it's your space.

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And again, I want to make sure

every time I open my mouth,

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It's in service of my client.

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So those are the three things I

want you to consider how they are

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showing up in your pursuit of a

coach or a professional to work with.

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And again, this isn't to put you off

things, to get a deep mistrust, but it's

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really to encourage you to be intentional.

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Be just as intentional as that

person who got on the call and

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said, look, I want somebody who

has experienced microaggressions.

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Is it you?

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Right.

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And I would have said no, if it was no.

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But it's been yes, but you know what

I mean, in that sense, because at the

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end of the day, it's a connection, it's

a relationship, we want to build that

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trust and that bond and that connection.

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And again, there are some areas where

we've put it as number one on the priority

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list when really it's a nice to have.

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It's a nice to have.

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It's not a need to have.

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My coach does not need to

understand certain things.

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I am happy to define and

explain certain things.

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I am happy to, you know,

do, um, to, to teach, right.

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I am happy to share and to give insight

because ultimately what I've come to

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them for is not their understanding

of the, you know, microaggressions

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or the understanding of ADHD.

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I've come to them for, their general

compassion and their skill in helping

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me to get the result that I want.

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So, a lot there, a lot to unpack.

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And I know you're probably

thinking like, okay, now what, Jez?

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Like, Ultimately, I get it because

these are thoughts and reflections.

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But ultimately, this is about

acknowledging that the coaching industry

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isn't and shouldn't be excluded for

the work done by other industries

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and sectors to be more inclusive.

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And part of that journey is really

Empowering you as the coachee, as a client

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to be aware, ask those tough questions

and make informed intentional decisions on

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who you want to work with and why, right?

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Ask those questions and

make those decisions, right?

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And ask them of me, ask them of everybody.

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Because in my experience, when I've

been able to be super intentional,

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I've found myself with the

perfect, um, perfect match, right?

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And also you want to know why

you're working with the people

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you're working with, right?

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Many a time, like I've worked with several

coaches and I'll share them at some point.

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I'll probably do a blog post

or whatever with the coaches

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I've worked with across 2024.

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The coaches really holding me together,

both personally and professionally.

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Right.

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And the beauty of when people go,

Oh, I've seen this person's program.

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Would you recommend it?

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I am always able to say, do you know

what, this is what attracted me to them.

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This is what was important

to me at that time.

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These are the extra additional bonuses.

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Um, these are the things

that I was mindful of.

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Heck, these are the parts

where we are polar opposites.

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Okay.

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Um, and just be really conscious

for myself, but also to be

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conscious for others in terms of

this is what it kind of looks like.

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So, you know, I really want to

encourage you to do that, right?

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And a few things I kind of want

to leave on that note, right?

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And I share this as somebody

who is an ICF accredited coach.

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I'm bound by their code of ethics.

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I support the work that they do around

really diversifying the coaching industry.

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Black coaches are still a minority.

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Right?

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They are still a minority, right?

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And then slice that down further into

black coaches, women identifying coaches.

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Um, so it's really, really important

that we have these conversations

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and we don't pretend that it doesn't

play a part in who we work with.

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And it doesn't play a part

in how we see the industry.

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When most people hear the word coach

and they think about executive coaching

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and the type of coaching I do not on the

sports field, they think of Tony Robbins.

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Right?

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They think of men from

a particular background.

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They think of people who are pretty

much almost exclusively American, right?

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They think of all of these things.

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And we do it subconsciously

just like we do in corporate.

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We don't bat an eye at

the white middle aged CEO.

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We don't, right?

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But when it comes to something so personal

as your coaching, I want you to think

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about the layers of your identity and I

want to challenge you to be intentional.

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And there's a few things I want to

kind of just leave with you here.

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So, you know, don't assume because

it isn't clear that a coach won't

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answer a question about inclusion,

identity or their lived experience.

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Right.

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Everyone has a power to say no.

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When I get on video,

consultation calls with people.

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I say, look, you can ask me

a question about anything.

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You can ask me a question

about how I work, about me

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personally, about my own career.

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This is your space to get nosy and to

get curious and ask the things that are

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helpful to you in making a decision.

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The other thing to think of is

ultimately, you know, if it's

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important to you, don't overlook it.

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You don't want to resent any

time spent giving context.

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And ultimately, as much as I've spoken

about being willing to teach, it's

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not your job to educate your coach.

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There is a very fine line.

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You shouldn't be going into that

coaching relationship doing an onerous

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amount of labor, educating your

coach on your cultural context, lived

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experience, et cetera, and identity.

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And then the last but not least, right,

as with coaching itself, we don't have to

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have been there to be able to help you.

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So please keep that in mind as

you have conversations, right?

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Empathy, insight, and cultural awareness

can mean that you still don't have to

425

explain what Ramadan is for interest.

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As with coaching itself, we don't have to

have been there to be able to help you.

427

Keep that in mind as you

have conversations, right?

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Empathy, insight, and cultural awareness

can mean that you still don't have to

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explain what Ramadan is, for instance,

so, Ultimately, that's where I want

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to leave you with this episode.

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Um, on my website, you'll also find

a list of questions that are ready

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and waiting for you to ask without

fear, awkwardness or avoidance.

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The post is literally called all

the things you want to ask about

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coaching, but shouldn't have to.

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Um, and you can always ask me

these anytime DM me, email me when

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you hop on the consultation call.

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We've got plenty of

time and space for that.

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So I want to encourage you

to go ahead and do that.

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And then of course, as I've said in a

previous episode, if you are interested

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in hopping on that absolutely free, no

obligation consultation call with me,

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you have until the 12th of January,

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in my space, in the zone for 2025.

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If not, you'll be more than welcome

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So that's all for today.

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Identity, intersectionality,

all the things.

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Can't wait to catch up with

you on our next episode.