In this episode, we talk to Dr. Gaetane Jean-Marie about her work in elevating women’s voices in social justice. Dr. Jean-Marie shares personal experiences modeling how we can prepare our voices while in safe spaces to speak up and speak out when we are in less comfortable situations. This episode was originally released under Teaching and Learning: Theory vs Practice Season 1 Episode 20.

Referenced in this podcast:

• How to Be an Antiracist — Ibram X. Kendi - Ibram X. Kendi's concept of antiracism reenergizes and reshapes the conversation about racial justice in America--but even more fundamentally, points us toward liberating new ways of thinking about ourselves and each other. Instead of working with the policies and system we have in place, Kendi asks us to think about what an antiracist society might look like, and how we can play an active role in building it.
• Women of Color in Higher Education: Turbulent Past, Promising Future - (2011), "Advertisement", Jean-Marie, G. and Lloyd-Jones, B. (Ed.) Women of Color in Higher Education: Turbulent Past, Promising Future (Diversity in Higher Education, Vol. 9), Emerald Group Publishing Limited, Leeds, p. i. https://doi.org/10.1108/S1479-3644(2011)0000009024
• So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo | Hachette Book Group - In So You Want to Talk About Race, Ijeoma Oluo guides readers of all races through subjects ranging from police brutality and cultural appropriation to the model minority myth in an attempt to make the seemingly impossible possible: honest conversations about race, and about how racism infects every aspect of American life.
• Gaëtane Jean-Marie - Dean Jean-Marie joins Rowan from the University of Northern Iowa, where, since 2016, she served as dean of the College of Education and the Richard O. Jacobson Endowed Chair of Leadership in Education. She also previously served as interim director of UNI’s Center for Educational Transformation.
• What is Servant Leadership? - Greenleaf Center for Servant Leadership - Servant Leadership is a non-traditional leadership philosophy, embedded in a set of behaviors and practices that place the primary emphasis on the well-being of those being served.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

talk, women, opportunity, lead, speak, students, higher ed, experiences, practice, writing, teachers, color, university, leaders, social justice, higher education, conversation, education, institution

SPEAKERS

Gaetane Jean-Marie, Amy Vujaklija, Joi Patterson

I want to also ensure that we represent and support the needs of everyone as much as possible. That's important for me to act, it even interrogate push the boundaries, whose voices not represented here.

This episode was originally released under the podcast titled teaching and learning theory versus practice. This rebooted episode has been migrated to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joy. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Hyatt, Director of educator preparation. And I

am Dr. Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Good morning, Dr. Joi.

Good morning, Dr. Amy, how are you today?

I'm doing really well. We're going to talk about women of color in higher education. We're going to talk about leadership. And it's really exciting to talk about all of these advances. And you know, women just aren't written about that

much. I know. And not only are women not written about enough, women are not writing enough, especially when we talk about nonfiction, which is why I'm very excited for us to talk to Dr. Gaetane Jean-Marie today. It was Dr. Jean-Marie, who kind of got me through my first couple of years in it higher administration.

I'm glad we have this connection, because when she talks about her research, I really feel like our listeners will be inspired. Dr. Gaetane Jean-Marie joins Rowan from the University of Northern Iowa where since 2016, she served as dean of the College of Education and the Richard O. Jacobson Endowed Chair of leadership in education. She also previously served as Interim Director of UNI's Center for Educational transformation. Prior to joining UNI, Dr. Jean-Marie was chair of the Department of Educational Leadership, evaluation and Organizational Development at the University of Louisville, my alma mater, where she also served as co director of the Center for Economic Education. She also has held faculty positions at the University of Oklahoma, and Florida International University. Dr. Jean-Marie earned her PhD in educational leadership and Cultural Studies from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, where she also earned a post baccalaureate certificate in women's studies. Her additional background is a master's degree in Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement Administration and a bachelor's degree in political science in government from Rutgers University in Newark. Wow, we welcome you to our show today.

Thing Good morning Dr. Jean-Marie are my personal Rockstar.

03:31

Oh, you're kind. I appreciate it.

You're so beautiful this morning. Thank you for being here and

saying to you, we need lots of joy.

Yes. Joy, in the morning. And the reason that I say that you're my personal Rockstar is because and before we talk about women of color in higher education, I really want to talk about this book, the book that you wrote, because this book got me through my first couple of years when I went from a chair of a department in higher ed to being a provost. And this book really got me through those first couple of years that the number of black women who write nonfiction, so not only is the book itself important, but the fact that you wrote a nonfiction book is also important to me. So the book that you did, women of color and higher education is just as much as an anomaly. As women who make up a small amount of women in higher education at that level. I was just struck by the fact that there are so few women of color who are writing nonfiction. And not only that you do it, but the New York Times they kept they put this in the top 10. But that is amazing. So this is amazing work that you're doing in higher ed and the fact that you're writing about it. So before we go into what Men of Color in higher ed, can you talk about the inspiration of writing the book? And can you tell us more about this book and the other editions?

Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to be with you today and share about my work. I recall, it was a presentation. So my research is one of it. One of the areas is on the intersection of gender, race and leadership. And it stemmed from my dissertation work. And that's really the impetus for that work. And also, personally, throughout my life, my educational experiences, I've come across women leaders from all walks of life, who were influencing me in ways I didn't realize. So I'm always a student of my craft, and I want it to study. So it was through my dissertation work, and I know you'll touch on that. Well, hopefully, we'll get to that. But it was my dissertation work, then led to me continuing into the topic research on women in leadership, hence the book several years later, as a tenure track faculty, tenured faculty, that I really wanted to capture the voices of women of color. And this and what started out as a one volume lead to to value. And I really wanted to capture from the past, because it's women of color, turbulence, past promise and future. And then women of color, New Directions, challenges and new directions for the other volume. And we wanted to be sure we captured women of color in ways we have not thought about not black women only or Asian American, this volume, encapsulate the experience of women of color, and just from different paths, or we reached out to folks we didn't know, scholars in the field to contribute. How has the field evolved in higher education, tenure track administration hits the work, we presented at a conference and came back talk to an editor said, Why don't you think about of a book? and we ran for it. I'll share also with you what led to other works, connections, but women of color in the practice of engaging in that work?

Let's talk about your dissertation research. What was your process? And what kind of research did you do?

Well, I was reading about the work of social justice in my program. So you referenced the cultural studies and educational leadership. So I again, I wanted to connect theory to practice, which led to the exploration of the leadership discourses of women of color. And in my own synthesis of the literature, the voice that was what people would talk about limited voice was women of color in at historically black colleges and universities. That was an area that had I have no experience or or education experience in HBCUs. So this was also an opportunity to learn. And it led to my traveling across one state 11 institutions, if I recall and interviewed 19 women, from women, presidents, women Deans, women attorneys, Deans at different nursing, Dean of College of Ed, VPs. And then women mid level. What I wow, I was not only studying, but it was opening a whole world about women's work, and what's the driver for them? of the 19, for my dissertation, I utilize the 12 of the transcript and what I gravitated towards, and did not anticipate it was that gap in the literature. The women were talking about, they talked about being the first to integrate schools, that decision and how their recollection of that experience inform their leadership practices as women presidents, as Dean, those pieces were so informative for me to hear, tease out the social justice discourse, in their personal experiences, educational experiences, to now inform how they support and lead at an institution that was a pivotal, powerful moment, influenced in my decision years later to go into administration. Oh,

wow. That's wonderful. So I talked a little bit about my experience when I became VP, a provost at a university and how this book really, really spoke to me. I suffered, I think for what we call impostor syndrome. At the time, I didn't think that I was good enough to be in that position. And that somehow I would be discovered that I didn't know enough and I myself doing a lot of things to compensate for that I was working 1215 hour days, six days a week, after 10 years of being a chair, five years of being a provost, I was drained, I needed a change. And I'm just wondering what all the women that you speak to. And in your experience, do you find that women of color, we work harder trying to compensate, trying to prove something that's showing our worth. So

I shared with you some of what you're bringing me back to think about my transcripts and the narratives, and how powerful it was. So here I am the researcher, but also sit in under the wisdom of women, for example, I can tell you one example of a dean who was the Dean of College of Math and Science, she was, I think, even engineering, she remembered me in the first going to class, her undergrad class. And her professor said, What are you doing here? You don't belong here. Could you imagine being told, you're pursuing your degree being told you do not belong in this class. She said, I stayed in the what they talk about their tribulations, and how they use those tribulations to transcend what they do as women leaders. That's the power of their stories. So wide resonate, that they're the first to integrate the first to lead the first woman president. What resonated for me is that I am standing on the shoulders of trailblazers who inspire me to do the work that I do. They broken through the barriers, but there are still barriers, and how their work in form and also the work around social justice, to really create educational access opportunities for students. That was powerful for me and continue to inform the work that I do.

Tell us about your passions with social justice, and how that has sprung into the work that you're doing now.

So for me, I asked the question, who's not at the table whose voices that represented, I have the opportunity to engage in conversations to, to support in leader college and to do that as part of the university. And I want to be sure that what I'm addressing the issues, the areas we have to tackle, that we're also factoring in printed underserved population of students to ensure we're creating opportunities and access for them, our faculty, I want to also ensure that we represent and support the needs of everyone as much as possible. That's important for me to act and even interrogate, push the boundaries, whose voices not represented here. I have an obligation to ensure that we address and have those conversations, when we're talking about disparities, when we're creating opportunities to support to provide those supports.

Can you talk more about the diversification of women of color in higher education, I do want to talk to you later about our new hire at Governor State University, we actually hired our first African American President, this is a female. So this is a strong black woman who's now come to Governor State University. This is a huge change for Governor State University, where most of our presidents I think all of our previous Presidents have been of Jewish descent. I'm inspired by the appointment. And I'm especially the bravery of our board to make such a decision. But I'm also a little fearful of how she will be accepted and the opportunities to lead. So I just want your perspective, as we talk about the diversification of women of color and higher education and the opportunity because it's not it's more than just you being a strong leader, but those that you lead have to give you the opportunity, right?

That's right. So women, for women in leadership is both that paradox of gender and leadership and having to not navigate this outside or within part of the context part of the organization's but do we truly embrace the presence and contributions of women in leadership role? And then when you add race to it the dual the Double, both gender and race those also compound in how do you navigate that? How does society? How does the institution receive the individual? What will be the support? How will they navigate, and we bring our experiences and we bring the commitment. That's part of the work, you're qualified, you're hired, now engaging in that work, and the sometimes the underlying isms, the racism, sexism. And that's what I came across, in my dissertation on my dissertation work with women at HBCUs. But they're in this context and what they've shared with me, even in an in an HBCU context, or PWI, context, those isms permeate it. And having to work through those challenges through those barriers, they still permeate. And the more we create access and opportunity for the presence of women, we start to normalize the organization that we are creating, welcoming the unwelcome. That was a piece that I wrote an article that was a byproduct of because of their experiences, what they decided to do, how they're going to shift and change the landscape. We are going to welcome the students the last voice, and that's why I shared with you earlier, I'm asking the questions whose voices start at the table? Yeah,

welcoming the unwelcome because that's how we retain them. Right? That's

right. And we create the space to say, we really want you to be here. You're a part of us. Now, that also may mean how do we differentiate the support? Because if the access if there the opportunity, there were divergent pathways, whether they had limited access, or more other students have more access? How do we create, differentiate the support? Students need faculty need to help them be successful? Yeah,

you talk about that table. And it's definitely so much of a metaphor. I mean, we come around a holiday table, we welcome everyone. Part of my dissertation research helped me rediscover how important Invitational language was. And when you ask somebody to join you, it's way different than a principal or an administrator just telling you to do something. But you were also talking about, it's not just a matter of being at the table. It's being heard. And, you know, are you invited just to the table to be seen? Or do you have something that people are going to value and and share? You talked to a number of women of color? What did you learn about their experiences at the table or looking in at the table? And what was most impactful?

So the mission that I'm on if I can use the word mission that I'm on, the journey that I'm on, is asking and challenging others to speak up? It's not enough to be at the table. What will you do at the table? Will you speak up? But even before you arrive at the table, what's the preparation, I was recently talking about the opportunity, one of my colleagues invited me to guest lecturer in his class, higher ed class to our students. And I actually had a Dr. Hood in my alma mater a couple years ago, I believe, I spoke about speaking up and use a couple of tenets around that. Because it's in our graduate programs, in our safe spaces, we get to practice to speak up. Because when we're in settings, where we're the only person the only voice at the table, if you didn't practice in your safe spaces, you may miss the opportunity to speak up when you really need to do so. So I'm on this journey, this, this mission to encourage people speak up because it manifests in faculty meetings, where faculty want to speak up, but they don't. Where did they practice to speak up? Don't miss I actually call that that speed. Don't miss the moment. I

like that.

Well tell us about those moments. When are those moments and how do people grab them?

It's that voice that says or that gut feeling you should say something Hmm, this is wrong. Speak. But I don't know what will they think? Those moments we have them. But the thing I want to place emphasis if we're not practicing speaking up We may miss the moment when we really need to do so that critical, pivotal moment to do. So I should have said something, I miss it, we don't always get that moment to speak up. And what I mean about that, so I can think of examples, I'm likely the person if two kids are interacted with, I'll be the person to say, Don't do that. And I didn't realize that was practiced on the ground. So now when I'm at the table in a leadership role, Well, I disagree with that. Let's think about that. What about that perspective? What is the preparation, so the doctoral work that I've done, or the readings that I engage in, these are all part of the process, because I'm also educating myself. I'm reading my more recent book, I'm part of a book club, what I'm reading about being an anti racist, think about the climate, the context we're in. So I'm educating continuing to learn and grow as a person myself. So I can also be challenged and challenge others, to not, for example, to be anti racist, that's I'm adding this repertoire to my leadership tool to my discourse. But where's the preparation, the learning that's occurring? So you can be comfortable and be ready to engage that work? The work of social justice is not Oh, speak up for social justice? What's the action? What's the walk, and

you're right, timing is very important. And I imagine this is something that you have to do and mentorship with faculty. I remember, when I was an assistant faculty, we were not empowered to speak up. And especially as a minority at the institution where I worked, I was the first African American tenured faculty. It didn't necessarily feel like a safe space, we were guided to talk to someone who was tenured, to be our voice, to have that protection. I think this is something that would have to occur. And faculty mentorship, and that's so important. Talk about how you inform faculty, and how this has impacted how you lead faculty, especially assistant faculty, who don't have their tenure.

I'm having the conversation about speaking up. I'm also even in my silence, I may pose a question someone else pose or the known voices who would speak I do what I practice, I go inward, silent. There's lots of value in silence, to create opportunities for others to speak. And the others I will, what about you so and so just right now, in this platform where I'm on this virtual realm, you have to also read the room, pay attention to the visual, what are they communicating? And asking, given creating opportunities for others to be? What do you think anybody else has anything else to add to this, I welcome your feedback. Because people aren't always sure if they can speak up. And the other thing I do want to point in the commitment to not miss the moment to speak up. What I'm also aware and have become cognizant, in doing so we would be creating opportunities for individuals who are in that space with us to join in solidarity with us all we join in solidarity with them, that person who may have observed you or me speaking up, wow, this person, I share that perspective. Next time, I'll also speak up, there's so much to this, that we may not unpack today, but what I do want to place emphasis in a society where you see levels of complicit taken place, that is a strain and a socialization that is years in the making. In the same way, speaking up season, the moment is also socialization preparation, years in the making. So will we be intentional about speaking up but what will be the preparation? Where do we practice in a safe spaces? Where do in conversation in our safe spaces with our loved ones? Someone may have said something you disagree? Did you just let it go because their family they didn't mean it? Or did you say I disagree with you? I don't think that's appropriate for you just say that's a safe space to practice. They may frown upon you, but still practicing you now. Giving someone something to think about and I can give you an example about that. I was with my friend we had together celebrating my oldest brother because he has special needs. And we really wanted to do something special for him. My family we came from different out of state to do a gathering a birthday his 58th birthday. And then we were having conversation As a family member, just life stories. One of my siblings said something that was culturally insensitive referring to she made a joke. And I said, No, I disagree with that. And I left it at that. Didn't think about it, left it at that. She sent a text to the family, we had a text. And I should say to you, I'm sure I've heard the story previously. And I didn't step up, speak up. I'm gonna say along that theme, the power and sharing this with you this, she said the family in a text and said, I reflected on that moment, in the conversation where I was being insensitive, culturally insensitive. I want to apologize for that. And I will never tell that story again. Thank you Gaetane for bringing that to my attention. And she said, and we would call her Chinese and I believed the story, but her name is Sharisa, we would call it Chinese. She said, I no longer want to be called Chinese, I want to be called Sharisa them my name, that's also inappropriate. So to my point to earlier in my speaking up, it had not enabled her to also speak up to address something that we were doing, that was insensitive and didn't bring attention to it. I didn't plan on it. But I was in a safe space. It bothered me was inappropriate. And I sat in luck that it didn't realize the impact it would have thereafter,

most of who will listen to those are educators. But many of those educators are parents, and I hope that parents take something away. You may know something about this. But I know growing up when I did in an African American household, and even in a Latino household, we're taught not to question. And so I really like the way you talked about being able to lead, and also being silent, and being able to ask those questions that cause others to reflect. And a way of holding them accountable. I think a taskforce that I'm on with the state as they try to come up with different pathways for teachers to get into the profession, because we have a teacher shortage. Often those pathways really lower the standards of becoming a teacher. And so I recall, you want to be careful, because you don't want you want people to listen, right? You want to listen. And being abrasive will have a very different react response and reaction. I asked a question. So what schools do you think will end up with those least prepare students? And so I think your technique of asking the questions, as opposed to you giving the answer or your opinion, can be very, very effective. So I want to I just want to thank you for that. Because it's not just for teachers. But I think this is all for sole for parents and how we raised our children to stand up and to maybe ask those important questions. And

I agree with having that model. We can probably all think of times when we didn't say something. And I think in my reflection, I regret more not saying something then when I actually intervened in a situation, it said because you think oh, I could have helped that student in that situation, or I didn't think it was right that the teacher was reprimanding that student in that case. But not saying something really has a strong impact, and it weighs very heavily. Let

me encourage you the recognition and the reflection. You've done that I didn't do it. Now, at that point. What's most important is what will you do moving forward? I want us to caution of blaming ourselves or feeling guilty. There's a tipping point that happens of I can do differently. It's what you can do moving forward is what I'm interested in. That's how we can influence what we do practice. So I want to be very clear that I didn't always speak up. So I want to be very clear. I want to give this false sense of notion that I was the child who always no, no, I talked about the preparation. What are those experiences that shaped us and part of The experiences I've talked about the women have called the HBCU. Presidents in the terms, and then but also life experiences. So there were moments I didn't speak up and that little voice or that gut, you missed that moment. So I want to be very clear, let's not rush, good to reflect. It's what will we do moving forward not saying, you know, how Cognizant will you be, and you're present in the conversation in the engagement, and you're listening, to pause and reflect and engage with the person. That's what's critical to the work moving forward.

And I like what you were saying about being that model, and showing that solidarity when someone sees someone's intervene, it causes them to reflect it causes them to perhaps take that pivotal moment in the future. So how do we continue to capture the stories of that good work that is happening in higher education, with social justice in our K 12 schools, so that people have those models. If they're not seeing the models, perhaps they can read about the models that are the good work that is happening.

And we have to write about those models. We do we have to capture those stories, I wanted to put in the in their own words, their experiences in the impact. Some of my articles around my dues are the most reference about the work because of the participants experience because of the impact it's had on them and others. As we move that work forward. There's much to be done. We have to do more than just talk about social justice inequities, we have to walk it, we have to walk it in our lives and our practices, it has to be part of who we are. But we're also confronting the discourse of resistance to create an opportunities, access for others, we have to be ready to counter that. That's real. As we become increasingly diverse, there's resistance to embracing the diversity. So we're banning people, right? We're marginalizing people. And these are well meaning people, where we live in India and who have certain beliefs that support perpetuate creating inequities. Where's the push to say, That's not okay. We need to stand up. And the speaking up, and I'll give you one quick example was the young lady, the 12 year old young lady who video recorded what happened to Floyd. That was her speaking up. She saw an injustice. I'm interpreting what she did, she saw an injustice. And it was wrong. Her best way to capture speaking up was to video record so the rest of the world can see this happen. And we can have this moment of the protests of speaking up as a nation as countries. That's an example of speaking up. If she didn't capture that, it would be another killing. It's not only in the boardroom. It's not only in our classroom, it's an eye day to day, that young lady helped us to see injustice, because she so thought seize the moment to say this is wrong. Let me capture it. Something for you. Yes,

thank you for saying that. Because this is this is really like therapy for me. We're enjoying listening to you. And I just really hope that others are listening to this. And I mean, this is just so powerful for leaders and all teachers, because teachers are leaders, all teachers are leaders, I'm really back to the place where you talked about welcoming the unwelcome and that's really sticking with me. And this is a challenge that teachers of color are facing at all grade levels. They face this challenge when they go into their teacher preparation programs, because we have so very few minority teacher candidates, and how do we provide support for them so that they are successful? We talked about our new president and African American female, how do we how do Amy and I, how do we provide support for her so that she's successful because our students success is really dependent on her success. So we have an obligation and I don't anticipate this being an easy road for her. She's the person And I don't anticipate it being easy. But I do feel and I want to thank you for that, that we have an obligation, we have a responsibility of helping in that success, I just want to thank you for those words of wisdom and giving us something to reflect on and to think about and to practice on a daily basis, not just that, as you say, it doesn't have to be in the board room. But Amy and I are constantly challenging each other. You know, so I just want to say thank you, I really appreciate your wisdom.

Thank you, thank you for that. And I use them out of lead with me, I recognize I'm the dean, I get that I understand their responsibilities part. But I also believe in the concept others are leading with me because we play different roles, we wear different hats. So as you think about your precedent, how you can best support is for you to also lead and provide that support within the scope of your work. That is important. Because we're here to support all students, when we don't do that is one to come to her. But if we've done our part, fulfill our responsibilities, our obligation, we're providing the support. And it's the collective endeavor as an institution, to support faculty to support students to support staff to support the broader community. But if it's the vision, the agenda of one person that's difficult to move, because an organization involved both leader and follower people, as part of the system. And it's us doing the work in our respective roles. I haven't University president, but he needs me to lead as a dean. Because if I'm not leading, it's going to create problems for him. So what's my role as a dean to fulfill my responsibilities? As a dean? What's your role in the positions that you hold

that I love where you're going with vision? So as we hold the conversation, bring it to an end of a couple of last questions. What is your vision for the work you're doing in the writing that you publish? Now,

my vision is bringing people together for a common purpose. And we get to define what that common purpose but that common purpose has to also be inclusive of diverse individuals perspective. I want us to be able to transform communities where I am currently, what excites me about my work is the opportunity in the context of K 12, P 12 Education and higher ed. We're nested in a community at an institution where we can support rural suburban and urban contexts, to make a difference in the lives of students who come we to our institutions to help them have the knowledge and skills and also be passionate about their life's purpose and can make a difference. So that's my vision that I see my gift is to bring people together for a common purpose, to create a better world to really address to help diversify the teaching profession, to help create high quality leaders to really be the ones that the ethics, that dispositions, that they're here to serve. That servant leadership. That's what I want. That's what I study is to serve others. That whole body of literature of servant leadership, Greenleef, it came out of the business sector before it filtered into education. What does that look like in our context? And what does it mean to really lead through the lens of equity, justice, walk in the talk of that work? So that work, I'm still fueled by that work, through my scholarship through the work that I do as a leader and embracing these challenges. We're in the pandemic, but also the social unrest? What's the opportunity in this crisis? For us to create better quality schools? What will we do for the students who are marginalized and having to learn first remote, virtual, there's going to be a broader divine opportunity loss is what's coming in out in the literature. And lastly, as I think about our kids, if they're resilient enough to walk through their neighborhood, sometime hard challenge neighborhoods, that is enough for us, teachers to build upon, if they come to school. That's their resilience. How do we build on upon that, meet them where they are, learn about who they are about their community, to help inform us how we can support them.

I am so inspired by you. I also want to know though who inspires you What are you reading now? Oh,

thank you. I don't know if you can see it my I part of a book club, How to be an Anti Racist by Ibram since I'm part of a book club with my university. It resonates so much with me the chapters are one title chapters, but you get so enthused drawn in by the experiences and the issues he's raised. So I'm adding the language of anti racist to my my language, because I met him a couple years ago. It's either your racist or anti racist, he made it, it's he's making it clear,

he made it very clear, made it very clear.

And I'm also reading, so you want to talk about race, I'm doing that I listened to it to my car. So because that's where we are in this moment. Even my stuff I do I continue to grow. So I don't become complicit or silent as things are permit happening around that. So how am I also growing and continuing to educate myself. So you asked me who inspired me. They come from all walks of life, but I would have to start with my mom, Mama grace, Mama grace, didn't go to school doesn't have a formal education. But she is the most educated person I know. her and my dad, my dad had a fourth grade education. He's deceased raised nine kids, we had 12. I'm one of 12 three did not survive. Three died late earlier in life. And I have five sisters and three brothers. So my parents emphasize education. And she was a driver of I have image as a little girl. 11 years old. This is a woman who didn't speak English. Still, she understand doesn't write. Could you imagine on Saturday morning, I'm taking the train with my mama to go to New York City for to go shopping. So she can also sell clothes herself. I remember that run where she was driven going, I'm trying to keep up with my mama. I remember those incidents because she was the driver, she did not let her limitations inhibit her from driving for success. That image stays with me. But I also have other individuals, Sister friends, people from all walks of life, I talked to a mentor of mine, when I started at the University of Oklahoma, Mary John O'Hare, talk to her yesterday, just connected. She's influenced me, my mentors. And I wrote this about that in the in Volume Two, that your mentors can mentor networks is what I talk about. Men, women, the folks who are at different stages in my life, influenced me. I'm also part of a group A woke up part of a group advancing women of color in academia, we're writing about it. So we were a support system, all different walks of life, African American, I'm a patient, American descent, Asian American, Indian American, coming together and doing this work joining in solidarity. It's so important. We don't navigate this journey on our own. Who do we call upon, and I'm also a woman of faith. So if you're going to my faith is also important for me, faith, family and friends, is what I taught by the three F's.

Now, it's like a new book. We'll see we're working on a book. But we certainly thank mama grace for you. Thank you for building such a strong woman, I have been inspired by every word. This was definitely lessons learned for me. So I want to thank you for that, personally.

Thank you so much for the opportunity and your interest. And you shared with me something I didn't know about my work, you engage in this work and you hope it will make a difference. It

has made a difference. It has definitely made a difference. And thank you. And

I just want to encourage you, you're making a difference in the work you're doing supporting authors the outreach, to keep this going this momentum about the collective making a difference in our society. So thank you for doing this. We

really appreciate you being here today. And we look forward to reading your next volume your next publication. Yes,

and I'll do my best to spread joy today.

Thank you. Let's do that and stay safe and healthy. Thank

you for listening to teaching and leading let's Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the things to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi