Dr Anastasia Badder, an anthropologist of religion at the University of Cambridge, converses with Dr Kathryn Wright, the Chief Executive of Culham St Gabriel's, about the evolving role and significance of Religious Education (RE).

They discuss how RE can respond to contemporary challenges by fostering understanding, empathy, and critical thinking among students. Dr Wright highlights the importance of policymakers recognizing the subject's value, backed by public opinion supporting its role in promoting a respectful society. In addressing a question on shared values, Dr Wright introduces the concept of a “pedagogy of embrace.” Quoting Miroslav Volf, she emphasizes the idea of an embrace as an enriching encounter that respects individual integrity while fostering communal harmony and understanding, indicating its potential as a metaphor for interfaith relations as well as R.E. pedagogy.

00:00 Introduction to Dr. Anastasia Badder and Dr. Kathryn Wright

01:45 The Role of Religious Education in Contemporary Society

03:13 Building Empathy and Understanding Through RE

05:37 Future Challenges and the Role of RE

11:01 Policymakers and the Importance of RE

17:44 Values for a Holistic Society and RE Futures

24:46 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Resources mentioned

• Savanta Comres survey statistics on Culham St Gabriel’s website (2021)
• Nobody Stands Nowhere: an animation created in partnership between Culham St Gabriel’s and the Theos thinktank. www.theosthinktank.co.uk
• Miroslav Volf (1996) Exclusion & Embrace: A Theological Exploration of Identity, Otherness, and Reconciliation
• Kathryn Wright (2017) A pedagogy of embrace: a theology of hospitality as a pedagogical framework for religious education in Church of England schools [PhD Thesis]

Hello, I'm Dr. Anastasia Badder, and I'm a research associate in the Cambridge Interfaith Programme and Faculty of Divinity at the University of Cambridge. I'm an anthropologist of religion, but a lot of my work moves between anthropology and education.

I'm interested in interreligious encounter, including in RE classrooms in the UK. And I'm especially interested in the potential of material things to facilitate different kinds of encounters. And most recently, I've been thinking about religious ecologies and climate action as a space of religious and spiritual encounter.

Joining me today is Dr. Kathryn Wright. Dr Wright began her career teaching in East London Secondary Schools, after which she became a local authority RE advisor, and then a consultant for Culham St Gabriel’s leading the Teach RE course programme. She's also enjoyed being an RE quality mark assessor, and today, she's on the board of the RE Council of England and Wales, and is the Chief Executive of Culham St Gabriel's, a registered charity dedicated to enhancing religious education across England and the devolved nations, with a view towards building a more open and respectful society.

Dr Wright, thank you so much for speaking with me today.

You've had a really varied and rich career across RE and the interfaith sector, and I'm very much looking forward to hearing your insights into our interfaith futures today.

So shall we dive in?

Yeah, let's do that.

Great. So the question I wanted to open with is how can or should thinking about RE respond to our contemporary moment, which is, I think, so marked by politicized difference by inflammatory rhetoric, and even sometimes erupting into violence. And yeah, what is the potential for RE to respond to this moment?

One of the reasons I became an RE teacher in the first place, quite a long time ago now, was because for me, RE's always been about the power of understanding. So, understanding, is, I believe, one of the foundations of positive, harmonious, particularly talking about interfaith and belief work, this morning. So harmonious interfaith and belief work is rooted in really great understanding. And for me that's what lies at the heart of RE. Within classrooms, within schools, RE provides an opportunity for children and young people with different faiths and beliefs and identities to engage with one another, to, to build genuine relationships and to learn from one another as well.

So, I suppose RE provides a space where children can encounter practices and beliefs which are perhaps different, to their own, whether that be through resources. Ideally I always think with engagement with actual real life people if at all possible, whether that's actually in person or you know, great resources out there now. Films, videos and so on, or using things like we're using now, like Zoom and so on.

And that kind of engagement with lived experience is really essential. And I think this supports empathy. and understanding of each other as human beings. There is some evidence around that, particularly around the use of contact theory in the classroom, for example. And this can combat hate and allows creativity to, to flourish as well between people of different backgrounds and identities.

So I suppose it's a very broad answer to your question, but to dig down into what we do right now, I think it's really important that we have considered responses. So we need to think not only about RE as well, but about the whole school. Targeted subject specific responses need, I think, to work together.

I've spoken to those who were involved in kind of senior school leadership, who have been really challenged about how they enable their school community to flourish and thrive for all, and how they can work together with local communities and with parents and so on as well to combat the rhetoric that you were describing earlier.

And I think RE has a really significant contribution to make to that but it's not the only thing that's clearly needed at the moment.

Absolutely. I think we've seen some really strong research , including research supported by Culham St Gabriel’s, showing that RE is a particularly powerful space for building connections, for fostering empathy, and for maybe taking the lead on some of this multi subject response that you referenced.

And I think one of the things that Culham St Gabriel's is trying to do is, we see one of our roles is facilitating networking . So we have tried particularly, well actually before the riots in the summer, and also subsequently afterwards, bringing people together who are working in that space.

There's some really great work happening. But often people don't know what exists out there or don't know what each other are doing. So one of the things that we've tried to do is to bring those people together to network and talk about what they're doing so we can identify maybe where the gaps are as well.

Absolutely. I think that's so critical. And I definitely agree, and I think it's probably the case in many areas of research that people aren't necessarily aware of what other people are working on. And we definitely can do better research and build stronger responses by coming together.

Yeah, absolutely.

Great. So more generally and looking towards the future, what does or can RE offer in terms of building capacities to respond to future challenges?

Yeah, this is a great question, because Culham St Gabriel's vision is for broad based, critical, reflective, religion and worldviews education, but specifically to contribute to a well-informed, respectful, open society.

Right at the heart of Culham St Gabriel's, is that vision, if you like, for the future of a harmonious, peaceful, place where we can all thrive and learn from one another. So, I believe that RE has an intrinsic value, okay, in terms of learning about the nature of religion, and worldviews and so on, the development of religious and non religious worldviews, etc.

However, I do think it has value in other ways as well. We've just touched a little bit on that, but a few other things, which more widely than just the immediate issues that we face. One of the things I've noticed in the press is a lot of people talking about space for critical thinking in classrooms.

And actually, RE does that , when RE’s taught well, that is really done well in that space as well. And particularly children and young people, becoming interpreters of religion, and worldviews. I think acknowledging their own position, the position of others, and that we all stand somewhere.

There's a great film we funded, actually, called Nobody stands nowhere. But actually you need to understand your own positioning in relation to critical thinking and interpretation. So that's the one of the key things. The second thing I think is that RE does provide skills for life.

Obviously, other subjects do as well. I'm obviously biased. But I think it helps children and young people to navigate what is an increasingly complex and probably sadly unsettled world in which we live. So it provides tools for them to help navigate. So things like, for example, using different disciplinary lenses.

I might come back to this a little bit more later as well, looking at the methods that we might use to, understand one another, for example, whether it's in, interrogating text or whether it's, in analyzing and evaluating census data, all of those kind of things, are really important, I think, both in terms of understanding, but also, skills that maybe employers and so on are looking for as well, in terms of those broader skills for life.

And then I think the third thing, which Culham St Gabriel's has become particularly interested and involved with only in the last two years, actually. And that is around promoting and protecting freedom of religion or belief, or FORB for short. Culham St Gabriel's have actually commissioned pieces of work around this.

A literature review and work with some primary schools in particular. And the latter looked at what learning outcomes we might expect of children in primary schools, if they were to be demonstrating, and articulating freedom of religion or belief or FoRB principles, and living those out, if you like.

So I think that sort of increasing focus of our work's quite an interesting one, and one which we're continuing to develop. as well. We're hoping with Canterbury Christchurch University to set up a FoRB in education research network, for example, to take forward some of this work and also to look at where the gaps are as well.

But I think those three things in particular I hope will help going forward. Obviously all of those things apply to the immediate, but I think for the further future as well they're important.

I was really intrigued about what you said about learning to apply different kinds of disciplinary lenses, learning to engage different kinds of data and discussions.

And I think that links really nicely actually to your first point as well about learning to examine the kinds of lenses that we all bring as our own personal positioning. And it's such a critical piece of critical thinking , learning to tease apart what different kinds of lenses might offer us or allow us to see or not allow us to see and really being aware of that.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's something which I've been working on with colleagues for some time actually. Prior to my current role, I became really interested in the different ways in which we are actually studying the subject. One of the phrases that is more commonly being used now, in the wider RE community is ways of knowing. How do we know about religion, and worldviews.

We do that in different ways. I mean, you're an anthropologist, but yet down the road from you are, theologians or philosophers or whatever, all bringing a different kind of perspective to play.

Absolutely. Yeah. I've heard a couple of people talk about in the RE world, thinking about ontologies, epistemologies and methodologies.

So, always asking what is there to know and then how do we know, and then what are the sort of tools and approaches that we use to, to know that.

I think key skills and key things to be aware of and to bring to everything we do probably.

Yeah, absolutely.

Great.

So, our next question is a little bit more, targeted, I think, more specific. So what is it that policymakers need to know about RE to inform their decision making? And, relatedly, is there something policymakers ought to take away from RE to inform decision making for cohesive futures? So what do they need to know to make decisions about RE?

And what could they learn from RE?

Yeah, this kind of links back to what we've just been saying in a way. One of the things policy makers need to know is what RE is about today. I still think that not all, by any means, I don't want to generalise, but there are some policy makers who generally still don't really know what the subject is about.

The subject has changed and shifted and continues to shift . At the moment, I think we're in quite an exciting time. We're talking much more about a religion and worldviews approach, to the subject. Where the kind of substantive knowledge is framed, particularly more around kind of diversity and lived experience beginning with people.

We've just talked about these kind of different disciplinary approaches, different disciplinary lenses, which are kind of drivers, if you like, of this subject. So I think one of the first things that some policymakers probably need to be aware of is what the subject is actually about and what it can do, actually. The contribution that it can make. The importance for wider education. Those kind of transferable skills, perhaps, and knowledge. actually that I think is important for the wider school curriculum. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is that policymakers need to be aware that the public take this really seriously.

About two thirds of adult respondents said it was important to understand the beliefs of others in everyday life, in school, in local communities and the workplace. That's a significant number of people. More than just a, little majority. Two thirds is quite significant.

On top of that, 71 percent of the respondents, said that they felt RE should reflect the diversity of backgrounds and beliefs today in the UK. So that reflects this kind of importance of this move, perhaps more towards a religion and world views approach. But also employers and employees thought —so again about just under two thirds thought it was really important to understand one another in the workplace.

The general public see the subject as being really important.

So what might the policy makers then learn from that as well? That it's important in their context. That actually, within Parliament, within governments, within the civil service, that actually religion and worldview, religion and belief literacy is really important in terms of making policy decisions.

We are currently funding a project developing a religion and belief literacy standard in public life, working with civil servants, but broader than that too. And I think one of the things that government might learn is that actually where RE happens, really, really well, the quality that is happening there, the depth of understanding that children, young people are gaining is important in the policy decision making process itself. So I think that would be my key things. And then I suppose well, it's not really an aside as such, but in this moment, there's a curriculum and assessment review taking place. And obviously a number of us are looking at kind of submissions that we make to that.

And I think in terms of what policy makers should be taking seriously right now is securing the place of the subject. And taking really seriously a national content standard for RE in England— this is England- specific, um, that's why I've referenced it in that way — as a benchmark for all schools, that there needs to be some kind of standard, I think, across all types of school.

There's an opportunity at this moment in time to do something about that.

Absolutely. Two things I think really jumped out at me. One, the findings from the survey you conducted. I think this is absolutely something that policymakers seem to be missing and need to be aware of, that this absolutely matters to people and that people are invested in better understanding their neighbours, better understanding diverse religions and world views and experiences, across all sort of stages of life. So not only in the classroom, but in the workforce as well. I think that's so important for policy to be aware of.

Yeah, absolutely. I have to say that, when we set out to do the survey, the results were not what we were expecting. And they did surprise us. And when we dug down to that data from 2021, we found that there was a suggestion that parents of those who had children in school still were even more positive about the subject.

I think sometimes we have the impression that, or maybe parents have the impression that because, from what I understand, you can withdraw, and maybe parents are inclined towards that because they don't understand what's going on in RE, but in fact it sounds like parents are very invested in the potential of RE, and the importance of it and the kind of learning that happens there for their children and for the future.

Yeah, absolutely. And, generally speaking, with the data, we did ask parents whether they had a particular religious or non religious worldview as part of that.

And there wasn't a lot of difference between people. Whether people had a religious or a non religious worldview, there was a little bit, but not a lot. And again, within the religious worldview community groups, again, there wasn't a lot of difference. Most people, regardless of their worldview, the majority was still saying it was positive.

We're thinking about interfaith and belief. Actually there is a sense that this is really important for most people.

It doesn't matter necessarily what your particular religious or non religious belief is.

Definitely. I think that really supports as well, the idea that we hear more and more that interfaith is not only about conversation and encounter between different faiths, but also between people of different faith and no faith, and all different kinds of orientation.

So those were compassion, integrity, stewardship, community, and peace and reconciliation. And what I would like to ask is, do these values, or do any of these values resonate with your visions of RE futures? And if so, in what ways?

Yeah, this is such a great question. Both personally, but also from a Culham St Gabriel's point of view as well.

These values really resonate with me. So I've been part of the Faith & Belief Policy Collective since inception, and, I think they should underpin so much of what we do in our lives, just generally, let alone in terms of RE.

But what I found particularly interesting looking at these particular values was how much they resonated with my own research. Just very briefly, I, did some doctoral research. It actually took quite a long time, about seven years to do my doctoral research. But it was looking at what pedagogical approaches were appropriate in Church of England schools in particular.

So I've now framed it as a hospitable approach to teaching the subject. And the three principles that I talk about are creating space, encountering others, and listening for wisdom. And they're rooted in a Christian theology of hospitality. Although I think that a lot of the three principles can apply beyond Church of England schools as well.

But there was one particular analogy that I use in my research, and actually the title of my research is A Pedagogy of Embrace. And I use this analogy of an embrace throughout the thesis. There's a quote, which I'm going to read to you from Miroslav Volf, who's a Croatian Protestant theologian.

This is how he describes an embrace. And for me, this sums up my vision for RE future. And I think it connects to the values and I'll explain about that, but this is the quote.

Sure.

I think it's powerful. So in an embrace, “I open my arms to create space in myself for the other. Open arms are a sign that I do not want to be by myself only, an invitation for the other to come in and feel at home with me. In an embrace I also close my arms around the other. Closed arms are a sign that I want the other to become part of me while at the same time I maintain my own identity. By becoming part of me the other enriches me. In a mutual embrace, none remains the same, because each enriches the other, yet both remain true to their genuine selves.”

Now, for me, this is such a powerful image.

And if we think about the values that you were just talking about, for me, that sense of compassion comes through here, in the sense of being there for someone, in terms of embracing somebody.

There's a really strong sense of integrity because, as Volf says, you're being true to yourself. You are not becoming the other person that you're embracing. You maintain your own identity, yet you are embracing someone else's at the same time. So there's that sense of integrity there, I think, in an embrace.

Stewardship, perhaps a bit more tenuous in a way, but actually stewardship can be about time as well as about money and things. And when you are in embrace with somebody, then actually you are giving your time, your space, if you like, to another person.

Community, clearly, the whole thing, the whole idea of an embrace is about being with other people. So knowing that you are enriched by others as well that actually being with other people is an enriching experience. I think that's really important in the interfaith and belief space.

And then lastly, that peace and reconciliation that you referenced. I love in Volf's quote where he says, um, “an invitation for the other to come in and feel at home with me”. There's nothing more strongly I don't think that talks about a sense of peace or reconciliation, of knowing that you are completely and utterly welcomed by someone else.

And I have the quote up on my board, because it constantly reminds me, I think, not just about what RE is about, but about what our lives should be about in terms of the relationship we should have, well, we can foster with other people, I think.

That was so beautiful, this idea of the pedagogy of embrace and this notion of embrace as a process of holding the potential for or being open to the potential for really being transformed and encountering somebody else.

Maintaining that integrity. You're still true to yourself, but potentially transformed, taking on a new perspective by meeting somebody else and being open to that.

Absolutely. And it was only really as I was talking it through now that I thought, gosh, this is actually a really powerful analogy, which hadn't been thought about before for interfaith dialogue and encounter and so on as well. That actually sometimes we can be, not necessarily afraid, but perhaps reticent, to have encounters with people that have a different worldview to us because we're worried that they might be trying to make us become like them.

That may be the case in some instances. We should be clear about that. But I think in the vast majority, particularly people who are involved in that interfaith space, really want to be enriched. Yeah?

Yeah.

And through those encounters, be transformed, not necessarily in changing one's belief or anything like that. In terms of those personal developments and that enrichment of life, of learning from other people. So yes, perhaps the embrace analogy is a useful one for the interfaith and belief sector as well.

Definitely. Yeah. All of the kinds of values and orientations that that notion brings along with it are really powerful for the interfaith space.

And for thinking about interreligious encounter.

Thank you so much again for joining me today, Dr Wright, and for a really lovely conversation.

Thank you so much. Let's hope Inter Faith Week brings some of those embracing encounters that we've just described as well for people.

Absolutely.

We can certainly hope so.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Great.