Dr. Jennifer Wojciechowski joins the Pivot Podcast to explore how Christian mysticism offers profound wisdom for today's spiritual seekers. In her new book "Tending the Garden," Jennie examines how mystical traditions can help modern believers cultivate deeper relationships with God through practices like Lectio Divina, the Jesus Prayer, and the Ignatian Examen. The conversation reveals how Christian mysticism reorients us toward relationship with God rather than religious tasks, providing a compelling alternative for those seeking authentic spiritual experiences.

Together, they discuss the balance between mystical experiences and church structures, with Jennie noting that "Christian mysticism benefits from institutional oversight" while encouraging churches to "embrace that God isn't always going to act in the ways we want." Listeners will discover how reading the mystics themselves can provide surprising encouragement, as these spiritual giants struggled with many of the same challenges we face today while maintaining a transformative connection with God.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

Tending the Garden: A History of Christian Mysticism by Jennifer Hornyak Wojciechowski https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tending-the-garden-jennifer-hornyak-wojciechowski/1146105935

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Actually, what's so interesting is like lot of these mystics do start that way, right? Like they go on this sort of path of, you know, discovery and learning about God and you think it's turning inward, right? The 20th century mystic, Edith Stein actually talks about this beautifully and she's like, when I first became a Christian, I thought it was all about turning inward and growing closer to God.

And she's like, but what I realized that in turning towards God, God actually pushes me out into the world. It's actually my job to bring the divine into the world. And so I think there is that both and of like this deep spiritual work that we are doing and then how that actually reflects into the world. think it will, if we have that relationship with God, that second part will come.

Hello everyone and welcome to the Pivot Podcast where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Terri Elton and I'm joined with Dwight Zscheile

Today we're delighted to welcome back to the Pivot podcast Dr. Jennifer Wojciechowski, whose work speaks directly to our contemporary moment of spiritual searching and institutional change. In an era when many churches are struggling with declining attendance and religious disengagement, Jennie's research into Christian mysticism offers a compelling alternative to quick fix solutions. Her new book, Tending the Garden, explores how mystical traditions

can help modern believers cultivate a deeper, more personal relationship with God. Jennie is an assistant professor of church history at Luther Seminary and associate editor of Word and World Journal. And she brings both scholarly depth and practical wisdom to help us understand how ancient mystical practices can enliven faith in our disenchanted age. So welcome back to the Pivot Podcast, Jennie.

Hello, thanks so much for having me back.

So let's just start with the basics. So what is it that inspired you to write this book, Tending the Garden, and why focus on mysticism in this time?

Question.

Alright, I had two big inspirations for this one personal one professional. The first personal one, I was working on a previous book and through that I came across some of these women mystics and kind of the high middle ages, early modernity, people like Hildegard of Bingen, Julian of Norwich, St. Teresa. And I became so, so interested in their stories and the things that they did.

You know, somebody like Hildegard, she wrote all these different books. She went on a preaching tour to multiple countries in the 12th century. know, Julian walled herself into a room for decades. St. Teresa reformed a monastic order.

really rooted in this was their mysticism. And they truly believed that God was calling them to do these extraordinary things. And I became so, so interested in these people and I wanted to know more about them, more about their prayer practices, and then also like what they could teach us today. And then the second reason really comes out of my teaching, is I became more interested in them and I'd bring them into the classroom. Students wanted to learn more.

And I couldn't find just a good basic introduction to the mystics textbook. You know, we would have something that, you know, there's like Bernard McGinn's like giant multi-volume text, know, deal, you know, this wasn't like a here you go, or it'd be so watered down, you'd hardly get any theology. So I really wanted to write something that was an introduction to both the history and the theology that dealt with those things seriously.

but also is really accessible to just regular Christians.

So your book aims to demystify the mystics. So what are some common misconceptions about Christian mysticism that you address in the book?

Okay, first of all, there's a question of like, what is it? You know, like if you Google it, you'll get anything from like a cult practices to like a WNBA team to prayer. It's all over the place. So first is just like laying down a definition of like, this is kind of like historically rooted Christian mysticism. And then kind of once we get past that, there's all sorts of sort of like insider language.

Terms that just modern Americans don't really know anymore, know, things like spiritual progress or purgation, illumination, union, raptures, ecstasies, right? All these terms that we don't really use anymore. And then, you know, on the academic side, you get some pretty in-depth theological discussions too. And I wanted to take some of that and again, just make it more accessible.

So how does mysticism relate to our current context, especially when we think about the religiously disaffiliated? And some have even said that we've actually displaced enchantment to other places, right? Maybe not to divine or to God, but to other things. Say more about our current context and how this might help us think about it.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question, kind of the disenchantment or the displacement. I think probably both are going on. I do think we are living in a disenchanted age to a degree. And I think there is a real feeling of collective loss around that for a lot of people. And I think a lot of people are searching. You know, on the one hand, it's not all bad, right? Like we aren't burning witches anymore, you know, because of the Enlightenment. And I mean, that's a gross oversimplification, but there's some truth there.

You know, there are some good things, but somebody like Charles Taylor, talks about the spirit-drenched world. Like, that isn't really the world we live in anymore. In the West, elsewhere it is, but here in America, like, it's just not. People are finding meaning in places that isn't God, right? It isn't churches, it isn't places of worship, and that, I think, is really hurting the fabric of our society.

west at least.

Anyway, so, but what does mysticism have to offer to this? I think that it really helps us reorientate towards God. I think at its core, it places relationship both with God and with others, right? So it's not, mysticism isn't about, you know, doctrines, it's not about dogmas, that can be part of it, but it's really, really about relationship.

with a God that wants a relationship with you and that can change your life, but that really cares. And I think that's appealing to people.

So you called the book Tending the Garden. So what does that mean in relation to mystical spirituality? Why the garden metaphor?

Yes, the phrase actually comes out of St. Teresa of Avila's autobiography. It's a reference to like three different things, but that phrase is taken out of it. In the book, she is talking about her prayer life, and she compares it to a garden and kind of the levels of prayer and how she progresses in her relationship with God.

You know, how when you start your prayer life, you you have to pull weeds and it's really hard and how you have to like draw water from the ground and it's just tons of work. And kind of as you progress in your prayer life, it gets easier and easier until in the end, God is raining down water on you. And so that's where the phrase comes from. I start my introduction with that. And then I end my conclusion.

with another reference to a garden from a different Carmelite nun, Saint Therese of Lisieux, French nun, who refers to Jesus' garden as being filled with different souls, and she compares them to flowers, and how all these souls are like different flowers, and all together they're really beautiful. And then also, Saint Augustine had his conversion in the garden, so there's just a lot of different references on this.

Yeah, that's really interesting. We talk a lot in this podcast about the shift from membership to discipleship. And part of a lot of what we talk about is the spiritual practices of discipleship. It's not a one and done, right? And so part of what I like about that garden is it's attending over a lifetime, right? It's a rich thing to think of a life of faith.

Right, it's not just like, yep, like I've been saved or like, there's my garden, I never have to touch it again. No, it's all about kind of a cooperation between, you know, the believer and God throughout your life.

So as you think about the practices, the mystical practices that are about this tending, how might those help people today that have some of these spiritual hungers but maybe are turned off by church or religion or maybe even have had bad experiences but are spiritual? How might that resonate with some folks today, maybe in a new way?

Yeah, I think it really can, you know, there's a number of different kind of historical spiritual practices, which I can talk about. But I think just the idea of prayer as relationship building instead of something like transactional, like, God, I want this or God. I think that's just a really healthy way and a different way, I think, for a lot of people to think about prayer. It definitely shaped my understanding of prayer. And then kind of through the book, I talk about

few different spiritual practices, the big ones being like the Jesus Prayer, which comes out of the ancient desert tradition, Lectio Divina, which kind of has roots there, but really comes in the Middle Ages, and then like the Ignatian Examen, coming out of early modernity. And all three of these practices are so much about encountering God and building that relationship. And I do these practices with my students when they take my mysticism class, and

I hate to say that's usually what they identify as the most meaningful, not my lectures. But really, they connect with these practices, even though they're 1,500 years old.

Part of what I like about what you're describing is there, I'm an and person in case that has not been clarified. Listeners probably even know that. But the sense of the divine is around us. The spirit of God is among us at all ways, right? And I think our ability to bifurcate our lives has to be kind of broken down.

And what I love about some of these practices is it lifts up the spirit joining us accessible in all ways and all things. A relationship with God is always, you can, you know, I can talk to God in the car, can do that in middle of a meeting, I can do it with my kids, whatever, right? And that acknowledging the God's presence or the Spirit's movement is kind of awakening, I think, that is available to us through this.

Yeah, and that it's not just like a task or that it really is this place of encounter, you know? It's like like Lectio Divina. It's not about like, I've got to get this correct interpretation of Scripture. It's like, no, no, no, this is where you're encountering God in this moment.

Yeah, I want to explore that a little bit more because it seems like in, you know, the secularized modern West to imagine and experience a God who acts is difficult for many people and we think about the the leadership side to this it's very easy as a leader of a church to really think of your work is to maintain this institution and to get the tasks done and rather than your job is to facilitate these encounters with a God who acts

And so I'm curious as you think about how the mystics can help us with that. mean, one thing that occurs to me is that so much of the path of many mystics is a path of simplification and renunciation. Is there anything that the mystics might teach us in our ways of doing church today based upon that?

Yeah, that's such a good question. And actually, what's so interesting is like a lot of these mystics do start that way, right? Like they go on this sort of path of, you know, discovery and learning about God. And you think it's turning inward, right? The 20th century mystic, Edith Stein, actually talks about this beautifully. And she's like, when I first became a Christian, I thought it was all about turning inward and growing closer to God.

And she's like, but what I realized that in turning towards God, God actually pushes me out into the world. It's actually my job to bring the divine into the world. And so I think there is that both and of like this deep spiritual work that we are doing and then how that actually reflects into the world. think it will, if we have that relationship with God, that second part will come.

Well, I'm thinking about, so one of your mystics is Howard Thurman, And thinking about his role with Dr. as bringing, you know, helping Dr. King with this whole contemplative side as he was doing the act. Say more about that.

Yes,

I know he's such an interesting mystic and is one of the modern ones and very ecumenical too, but very deeply rooted in both his Baptist tradition, but also the Society of Friends, the Quakers, and that you have this inner light. And for Thurman and these individuals like Dr. King and other civil rights leaders, it was doing the spiritual work. then from that growing

like wanting to act in the world, informing their ministry, which was like, you know, social justice ministry out in the world. But yes, it's very, very connected with their faith.

So, I want to talk about mysticism and our current religious structures or our traditional. I think as I talk with people, some of the more mystical, inclined ones don't know if they have space to be that in traditional structures. I think leaders in those that might even be like that aren't sure they can lead with that, right? So, I think it's both the leadership and the participants, right, of a ministry.

But how would you imagine they could work together? And what might be some of the things that we have to address if we're gonna make room for it?

That's such a good question. Because I'm a historian, let me go back.

I expect you to give us a history lesson.

There's, it's an interesting relationship between the institutional church and mysticism. Sometimes tense, sometimes not. We have some really prominent mystics that were bishops, popes, monastics, that really fit within institutions. know, St. Augustine was a bishop, Gregory the Great was a pope. I I talk about both of them. But then also,

you know, mystics tend to, you know, they speak kind of from their relationship with God that may or may not go a line with church institutions. know, St. Teresa, my favorite, her autobiography was, she was forced to write it because they wanted to examine her theology and see if she was committing heresy, right? Like that's showing a real tension. And while they deemed it, you know, orthodox.

That's still, I can only imagine how stressful that was, right? Like, it's showing tension. how do you balance both, you know, the wildness of mysticism with the institution? I do think it's really critical that institutional churches kind of embrace this side, embrace the fact that God isn't always going to act in the ways that we want God to act. It can be

again, wild and messy and doesn't really fit into a neat box. But as for the particulars of like, do you deal with that? I will say that a lot of times mysticism does benefit from having some institutional oversight, because it does give it some structure. It does keep people a little bit more like within an orthodox framework, so you don't end up with something totally off the wall as well.

So I think at its best they work together, but I think we should probably accept that there might always be a little bit of attention because they have slightly different goals in a sense.

As a missiologist, I'm going to pull my discipline on you, Jennie. One of the things we talk about is there's this times when the systems need to be disrupted, right? From the margins, from blind spots, whatever, for a whole bunch of reasons. I wonder if there's, and that's the healthy tension, right? I wonder if some of this is

I know,

the active side of God, the Spirit active among us, and the curi—I mean, what would it mean for the more traditional church structures to be more curious about, how do you see God active in this? Or asking those kinds of questions to enter into dialogue to at least provide space. Because I think without such an opening, we can close that off and miss what God is renewing even, or bringing life

right, out of, I like the garden, right, bringing life out of fallow ground, right, or to people that have felt marginalized, and could there be a different way of bringing their voices into the community?

Absolutely. think when we say, this is the faith because that's the way it's been, we're in trouble. We need to be listening to what is God saying to us in this moment? Where is God moving? And to not be like, God's going to be here. Right? Like, OK, maybe we need to be open to see where that is. So yeah, you're right. I'm glad you brought up your discipline. I think it really works well together.

There's a sense of both the kind of freedom of God that the mystics point to. So I'm curious, again, many of the listeners and viewers of this podcast are church leaders, whether it be in a kind of inherited, established, time-honored, institutional expression of church, or maybe something more out on the edges and emerging. And what would be some ways concretely that some of the...

of the insights and the value of the mystics could get woven into how we do life together as the church today.

Good question. I think we could, I think a few different ways. I think just bringing some of those spiritual practices in would be a really good place. I think actually reading some of the mystics could be a really, really fun way, you know, like as a leadership team, pick up one of these mystics of old and what do they have to say?

They are a fun group of people that don't necessarily, that kind of throw things up in the air a little bit and you might get some really interesting things that come out of it.

It could be a great recovery. I highly agree with that. So I think that just having like prayer space and helping not only the leadership, the lay leadership, but also parishioners, you know, really practicing this faith. And like, I get it, running a church is really hard. Yes, you do have those tasks.

Yeah, that could be a great book.

but also trying to have that space for some of this maybe organic growth or the ability to listen. And also, the other thing, think you kind of mentioned earlier this discipleship aspect. The mystics are so, so good at this. A lot of them, like you sit down with their books and they're like, well, here are my prayer struggles and here are some issues I had in community and this is how we dealt with it. And it's like, this is like,

really helpful actually.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because so much of their, the context for so many of them historically has been intentional community, where they're having these, often these powerful experiences of encountering God. And then they've got to like, you know, go, you know, deal with their monastic sister or brother or neighbor or whoever who's very, you know, maybe not coming up in the heights of mystical, you know, flights of journey to God, but is very concrete, like, where's my soup or whatever, you know.

Yeah, and sometimes even worse than that, you know, we kind of tend to think of the mystics like, they're in the monastery and they're praying all the time. Some of these folks were so busy, you know, somebody like Bernard de Clairvaux, you know, he's an abbot, he's running his monastery, he's being pulled into like the latest giant ecclesiastical fights and he's like,

involved in like heresy trials and anti-popes. And, you know, he actually writes, he's like, there's no rest on this side of eternity. You know, was kind of this like exhaustion, but yet he still wrote these beautiful things about your relationship with God, how to love God, how to be in community with others. So they really aren't, I would say they are so much more accessible than you might think.

That's encouraging because I think people can often be intimidated by thinking about reading the mystics and then just write them off rather than being able to access that wisdom. So what surprised you most in your research about these Christian mystics?

Actually, that's probably it, how accessible they were, how relatable they were. You know, somebody, so you've probably picked up on it, like St. Teresa's my favorite of the mystics.

gonna have a favorite mystic.

You

have to have a favorite and she's mine. know, and she like she complains in her book like she whines about clergy. She's like she's busy. She doesn't want to do so. So you see like you finish your book and you're like, gosh, I kind of want to be your friend. Like she's just really fun. And, you know, yeah, some of the mystical texts are like really difficult to read and dance like, you know, Catherine of Sienna or something like it's not a fun read.

But other ones are really encouraging, somebody like Francis de Sales, his is just like super practical advice that he gleaned from being a pastor for a number of years. So yeah, they are, you tend to be intimidated because they're the saints, right? They're the great Christian figures. You know, what, you I can't possibly be as good as they are. And then you actually read their writing and it's just like,

they had a crazy life and they had all headaches and they had interpersonal conflicts and they had too much to do. And it's really, really refreshing. And there's uncertainty in their writing, which I think is really refreshing as well. know, geez, if St. Teresa, who literally is the doctor of prayer, right? That's her designation.

If she can struggle with prayer for 20 years and kind of be pulling out her hair in frustration, we can give ourselves some grace in our own prayer life, in our own life, if it's not going how we might hope it is.

I

love that you're inviting us to be curious. One of the things that we, one of our pivots is really how and we go from fixing to being more curious. And I think one of the things that I'm leaving this podcast thinking about is I think we so live in our head and we've, lot of our church leaders have been trained to be the expert, to be the theologian, to know the doctrine or make an argument for God in this case.

And this is a really invitation to be curious about God's activity, the Spirit among us, and our own, what it means to be grounded in this relationship with the living God, no matter what else we have to do, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's all about really, it's not about being the best. It's not about knowing everything. It is about having a relationship with God and knowing that this is God's action and God loves you, not because you deserve it, but because you're loved anyway and God wants to be in relationship with you.

Yeah, well, so I'm just thinking about, again, for churches that can claim these gifts and the particular practices around a deep kind of sense of prayerfulness, contemplation, really a life focused on that relationship with the living God, how powerful that can be for people outside of the institutional church who are seeking. I mean, I remember when I was growing up, not a Christian yet.

in California and know Zen Buddhism was always attractive because I could see you this is a community that practiced meditation together in ways that were very intentional and you know beginner's mind you could start you know wherever you were and no matter how much of an expert you were you were still a beginner in that wonderful sense and I looked at the church and it was kind of I don't know what they're doing but I don't necessarily see like a lot of spiritual practice in it and this you know from the outside

But so I wonder, you know, how some of these stories might inspire us to be people of deep prayer and relationship with God and the freedom that that gives us as we're in relationship with neighbors who are, you know, in today's world looking around for like, where can I find some hope or meaning or connection or purpose because, you know, there's a lot of craziness going on.

you know, handing somebody like a list of rules like, okay, this is of course the opposite of what's, you know, helpful. You know, when have students take my mysticism class, I was like, this kind of reminds me of the Eastern religions. I'm like, well, you know, actually there's a history of deep prayer and meditation and contemplation in the Christian faith too. And so, I think that's important to remember.

especially in the American Christian context, think a lot of that's been lost. know, churches kind of have this nonprofit model and, you know, Americans, we like to get stuff done. But in our current world where everything is so, so fast paced and I think people are so looking for just that moment to breathe, I do think it's especially helpful to be like, no, this is part of our tradition as well. This just silence sitting with God.

That's a great place to end because I think you have opened up to us some understanding of Christian mysticism that maybe we didn't know or had a thin understanding of and you've really helped at least me think about how this these practices and this Curiosity could help us think differently about the challenges we're facing today. So thanks for being with us Jennie. Thank

Thanks so much for having me.

Well, and to our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode of Pivot. To help spread the word about Pivot, please like and subscribe if you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to whatever podcast platform you're listening on and leave a review. It helps.

And the best compliment you can give us is to share an episode of the Pivot Podcast with the friends. So we invite you to do so with us. This is Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile signing off for another week. See you next week.