Dr. Sara Schnoor discusses her research on middle school leaders' perceptions of restorative justice practices. She emphasizes the importance of community and individual accountability in restorative justice, highlighting its benefits in education, healthcare, and other fields. Dr. Schnoor shares her journey from teaching to leadership, focusing on the dynamic growth of middle school students and the need for safe, inclusive environments. She details challenges in implementing restorative justice, such as breaking misperceptions and securing resources. Dr. Schnoor advocates for formalizing restorative justice in school policies and securing additional funding to support its effectiveness.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

restorative justice, community accountability, international conference, middle school leaders, healing component, art-based research, social justice, positive discipline, marginalized students, family involvement, restorative practices, accountability, sustainable programs, funding challenges, equitable outcomes

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Sara Schnoor, Joi Patterson

Restorative justice, for me is really it's a way of being, it's a philosophy and an approach, but most importantly, it centers community as well as the individual's accountability to that community. Welcome

to our podcast, teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi I am Dr Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation, and

I am Dr Joi Patterson, Chief Diversity Officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators.

So join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it.

Hello. Dr Amy,

hello. Dr Joi, how are you this fine day?

I am great and ready for this conversation today. I know we're going to talk about restorative justice. You know, part of it is sometimes I think it's a buzzword, because it's you so often. But when you really get into restorative justice and when you do the practice right, it is really helpful, you know. So one thing I did want to share with you and our listeners that october 1 through the third, we are hosting an international Restorative Justice Conference, and just to let you know how big this is, under the restorative justice umbrella. We have 10 different topics. So we have a topic in health care, we have a topic in education, we have a topic in social justice, we have a topic in environmental we have a topic in sports, you know, we have a topic in religion and so forth and so on. So there's no field that is untouched when it comes to restorative justice, you know of being able to repair harm that has been done either to an individual or an institution, and how do we repair that harm and hold people accountable at the same time? And when we talk about restorative justice, and I think, you know how I feel, oftentimes, I think we put a lot of emphasis on the individual or the organization that caused the harm, and maybe not enough time on the institution or the organization or the individual that was the victim that was harmed.

I think what you're saying about repair harm is extremely valuable and important for us to understand and healing. Healing is a huge component of restorative justice. We have not only the Justice aspect, but how do we restore, repair and heal? And October, 1 through the third, 2025. Will be a wonderful conference. I'm really looking forward to it. Today, we are going to talk to Dr Sarah Schnorr about her art based research in her work, and the real question that she was trying to answer was perceptions of middle school leaders who are implementing restorative practice, and what are those perceptions? Dr Sarah's mission is to serve others and a collective cause by offering a passionate vision, thoughtful perspective and Transformative Leadership. She strives, alongside other educators, and I love this, co conspirators to lead the improvement of school systems to benefit all children. Her service of over 20 years in public education can be captured by her belief in the power of education to create positive change and equitable outcomes for individuals and communities, centering the experiences of children and families while also owning accountability for their futures and knowing people are at their best when they are driven by their passions and curiosities as well as empowered with trust. I feel like we just need to capture that description and call it restorative justice. Dr Schnur is grateful for her experience teaching and leaving at the elementary and secondary levels. In South Carolina, Arizona and Illinois. She earned her PhD from New Mexico State University and her superintendent endorsement in EDS from Concordia University. Doctor joined us at Governor State University in August of 2024 and I'm so excited for this conversation. Yeah,

you look marvelous this morning. Dr, Sarah, how are you?

I'm doing great, and thank you. I appreciate the invitation to spend some time with you both,

and I'm very excited to learn more about your work. And before we get into your work. Tell us how Governor State University was so blessed to find you. Tell us about your educational journey to get here to Governor State University.

Yeah, I started my journey in Davenport, Iowa. I grew up in a working class family, and I was a first generation college student, and was really excited to get out into the world and experience some new adventures, so I headed off to Lawrence University, where I majored in music performance and music education. I was also a member of the Women's Basketball team there, and about three or four years later, I really wanted to have a bigger influence and impact in the world of education, and really wanted to expand into school administration. So I was teaching in South Carolina at the time, and got my degree at Clemson University in leadership. And then, as you, as you mentioned, I when I got my first principalship, I had set a goal when I earned my first principalship, that I would start a doctoral program. And I did that. I attended New Mexico State University, and then, at the encouragement of some others, I ended up going back once again after I earned my PhD to get my superintendent's endorsement. Once I graduated from New Mexico State I really had a goal of heading into higher education. I had this wonderful experience as a principal mentoring aspiring school leaders. And when the opportunity to join Governor state came up, I couldn't pass it up. It was really a wonderful opportunity. And since I've been here, it's really re energized and inspired me. And I'm just really excited that my colleagues, the students, and the experience here has been really wonderful.

Oh, that's fantastic. I'm so glad to hear that we are blessed to have you. I want to go back in time just a little bit, because my first love is middle school, and that's where Dr Joi and I both began our careers as educators, is in middle school. So let's talk about your experience teaching and leading in middle school. What is unique about this age group, and what do you see as specific needs for the children and for their educators? Oh, that's kind of a big question, actually,

yeah, and middle school, I, too, began my career in education at the middle school level, and I wouldn't I just there was no other choice for me. I just was so excited to work at the middle school level, it's intense, like middle school is this time period that is so dynamic, and I think that students go through this exponential growth, both like social, emotional and academic. I think one of the really, the things that really drew me to middle school was the students exploration of their identity, like just discovering who they were, but the interplay of that with the world beyond themselves, and just middle school students playing With that, and I think they need a really safe place to really understand who they are themselves, but also who they are as it relates to the world around them too. So it's a really exciting time in a student's life.

I have a question before we get into this restorative justice of restorative justice as an umbrella and Doctor Amy and I, we were discussing this before you came on. And one thing about restorative justice, I mean, it's in every field now, right? And as you said. You are really trying to make this positive change. Can you share just a summary of your research and how it examines restorative justice? When I think about my middle school days, you know, as a teacher, I can think of a variety of ways that I would have used restorative justice, sort of as a as an organization, and all the way at the micro level, into my classroom. But can you share your research of how you're using this?

Yeah, restorative justice, for me is really it's a way of being, it's a philosophy and an approach, but most importantly, it centers community as well as the individual's accountability to that community. So I think especially when we think about a middle school student's need for like, a sense of belonging, but also needing, like a very safe environment, permission to fail and know that we're going to be there to pick them up, to make sense of that failure and continue to grow. I think restorative justice in schools, it is a bit of an abstract concept, so it is a way of being, but it materializes and is brought to life by some very concrete actions. It's bringing folks together in a circle. It's sitting face to face, whether it's a small or a big conflict, and owning that either I have been harmed or I have caused harm, and having some honest and vulnerable conversations about the impact of that, but also the path forward. So a lot of research has centered around, like, what is restorative practices? It's been very descriptive, right? It's it's been more about what does a program or a restorative justice look like in schools, and so what I really had hoped to explore more so was the principal's experience, their skills, their competencies, their strategies for leading restorative practices within a school space so that it could be successful and could thrive.

I remember my first year of teaching honestly. Really think about those kiddos, because I'd know I wasn't approaching the classroom the best way, but the school as a whole was focused at that particular time on discipline, and there were rewards if you didn't have any disciplinary referrals or detentions and so on. Once a student had some kind of disciplinary referral, it just they they sank. I mean, they couldn't redeem, they couldn't do better to get that Mark taken off of their record, so to speak. Was there a specific interest or specific incident that prompted your research into restorative justice? I feel like there's got, there's a story there. Yeah,

I think my experience as a teacher in some diverse schools and districts, and seeing an experience, experiencing injustice in that specific way, just noticing that maybe for the same behavior, a student of color received a harsher punitive judgment than their white counterpart, seeing that as a teacher, as a leader, having conversations with teachers who were maybe were struggling with this concept as well about providing more of a positive discipline approach in their classroom, and were more harsh or maybe less understanding of students that didn't look like them. I think those types of experiences, along with like even my own educational experience, growing up in a rather diverse neighborhood, and just seeing the differences between myself and my friends and just the way that we were treated and the opportunities that we had in school, there was those experiences. But also, as I entered into my doctoral program, I wanted to very much focus on an issue of social justice. I wanted to do a topic of leading for equity and as a leader myself. Of having this approach and philosophy of implementing restorative justice practices, I wanted to bring that into my research. I had the opportunity to intern with Reverend Dr Spicer, who, also an expert in this field, just opened up doors to me. I was able to connect with a whole lot of people in a lot of different fields who were on the ground, practicing restorative justice practices and seeing that this is an approach, that these are strategies that can really bring communities together and repair harm and do and have the desired outcomes that we want. It really inspired me and pushed me to design a study that would focus on restorative justice practices, especially at this middle school level.

Yeah, you hit on something, and I'm just wondering about the impact that maybe it has had on historically marginalized students. So we know that historically marginalized students, they tend to get suspended more, they get expelled more, they spend more time out of the classroom. And you know, the behavior is looked at very differently. So how has your study impacted the results of that? And also, I'm curious that when you go through a process like this, especially working with students, that somehow the family gets involved. And have you seen any impact on the family, because this is now a lesson that they can practice, right? Sure,

absolutely. So the first part of what you shared in terms of like as a school leader and like the impact of these practices, one of the things in the research and in the findings of the research that I thought was just incredibly beautiful, was was just peeling back the layers of why, taking the time to really understand the behavior and maybe where That was coming from, the root, the cause of that behavior, really digging into that more as part of the restorative justice process. And I think that's one of the things that makes restorative justice more effective than potentially more traditional measures, more exclusionary measures, where we simply assign the detention, or we send the student home, and there isn't that reflection or that follow up, so that constant questioning of what's going on here. There's more to the story, why what's going on. And I think that when we do take the time to listen, to build those relationships, to dig deeper, we are, yes, we are resolving the conflict. We're repairing the harm, but we're also strengthening the overall community. We are communicating a sense of care above and beyond some of the like what the traditional practices might communicate. And then the other piece that you mentioned is just the involvement of family, and you know that that is one piece that I think is a must as part of creating a sustainable restorative justice practice program, students have to be involved, but their families have to be involved too, in in the process, in the like creation of what this is going to look like, in the process, as well as in the feedback of how it's working and how they're being impacted by the process. I mean, I think all along the way, there are these on ramps for both students and families to be a part of the conversation, I remember having restorative conferences with a student just one on one, and inviting families in into that conference and Just that opportunity to be vulnerable with one another and human with one another, I think just brings another layer of just authenticity to the learning process that is sometimes missing

that reflection piece. I mean, we do that whenever we've got a lesson that bombed and we need to repair, or we've had a conversation with a colleague or with a student, we're like, oh, did we do the right thing? Did we say the right thing? We are constantly, as educators, reflecting and you. You're right. So often those tools aren't taught to our students about behavior, about what could I have done differently you talked about family and communities. I'm wondering, what did you discover in your research about any barriers or obstacles that schools face in implementing restorative justice practices,

sure, yeah. And even in my own practice, and in this research, I found some some pretty regular and constant barriers to restorative justice being able to thrive in a school. I was able to look at three different middle schools in the south Chicagoland area, and my research also included three very different principals. So we had a white male who had been the principal for eight years, a black female who had been the principal at her site for just one year, and then a black male who had been the principal at his site for assistant principal before, but now was the principal, and had been there for about three years. And all of them experienced, I think number one, all of them expressed that just a huge barrier was breaking through belief systems, belief systems like low expectations for students, particularly marginalized students, and this, by far, was the hardest barrier to try to navigate around. Is this understanding of restorative justice practices, what it was the purpose of it and its intended outcomes. There were a lot of misunderstandings or misperceptions of what it was, and they had to work very hard to model and have conversations with those teachers to help them understand

Let me ask this. Could you provide a specific example in which restorative justice practices or the process would be extreme that you have witnessed being extremely beneficial for the student, the community and for the school?

Yeah, I remember one of the principals shared his experience with two students who had had a verbal conflict, and they were basically back and forth with racial slurs. They were being very negative and hurtful about each other's cultural backgrounds. So the principal approached each student individually and invited them into the process right talked through what had happened and made sure that each student understood their role in what had happened and was a willing participant in wanting to connect with the other student to resolve the conflict, the principal had given the students an assignment to actually bring a dish from home, like and they were going to have lunch together. So each student brought a dish that they would normally eat, and they brought it to lunch together, and they had a conversation over lunch and shared this, this food that was from their cultural background, with the other student. The principal, during this lunch was able to facilitate a shared understanding of the impact of their hurtful words and the harm that it caused, and the students were able to share their feelings, take ownership of that, and also make some commitments as to the type of person they wanted to be moving forward and how they planned to treat one another moving forward. So it was a very powerful experience, and it was one that actually involved the families as well. The principal had communicated, hey, this is my plan. This is what I'd like us to do. And of course, they took a role in preparing a dish to be shared over lunch. So I thought that was a great example of justice. Yes, great.

So some listeners may be listening to you and say, Oh, that sounds like a lot of time. It sounds like a lot of work. And yes, it is, because I've gone through the restorative justice process at the college level and dealing with some issues. And first, it was a lot of work of us going through training, you know, so we had to learn how to function differently, how to see individuals, very, very differently. And that was that was hard, and that was a change. And once we started taking opportunities to implement this restorative justice. Practice. It did take more time. It took more time from any individual you know, working with the offender, working with the person that was a victim. And it takes a lot of time. But on the other side, we did not have to continue, yes, to have these episodes with the individual So, and I think that's where we get the Restore. You know, a lot of the restorative, you know, that person has changed, and we're also renewing and restoring the person that has been harmed in that process. So yes, what that example that you gave? Yes, it takes some work. It is a lot of time. But do you want the same student in your office every week, and do you want other students being harmed by that student every week? So I think it's well worth the time. And I'm just wondering, how do you translate this research and how administrators will incorporate this restorative practice into their and how they deal with students and sometimes even parents,

sure, and yeah, you touched on some of those other barriers, right? Like the the funding and the resources, you know, being able to have enough time people, professional development, all of that, as well as just the sustainability, like, there's just been a lot of turnover in education as well, and it's difficult to invest in this comprehensive approach to addressing discipline disparities when you know you might have a quarter of your staff turning over every year. So I think, as an administrator, something that came from the research. They were very clear themes as to what all of these principles, and I very much connected with with the themes, as well as a practitioner. And one was just the sense of urgency being able to communicate the reasons why, and the sense of purpose around restorative justice practice, I think that you have to lay the groundwork for and be able to communicate clearly this abstract concept, how it's going to become concrete, and the impact that it's going to have on students, if done well, and that's going to Take as a school leader, you really have to. You have to be a role model in it. You have to live it. You have to model it. You have to collaborate with others, and you have to bring them along on the journey of so walking into a situation where a teacher may be struggling, standing next to them, and being in that situation with them, and working through that situation with them, building their capacity, I think, is an important part just constant reflection, always asking those questions, like, what is happening? What is going on? Why is this happening? What can we be doing differently? All of the principals had that approach and that disposition to be constantly reflecting on their climate and culture and wanting to take action. And I think that part comes down to your centering of students, their identity, their experience, the ways in which you implement restorative justice practices really have to center in on your students, their strengths, what they need from the community to be excellent, to thrive. That that really came through in all of the principals experiences, and those are some of the themes that came from the research. Is, as a school leader, you need to do those things. You need to figure out how to create a sustainable and effective restorative justice program within your school. I you know, I have some ideas on maybe how we can improve on that in the future, like as we're implementing those things. So

I think teachers, administrators, those who are not familiar with restorative justice practices might step away and think, Well, wait a minute. What about the accountability piece that person caused harm? And are we holding them accountable? And what we're saying here, what you're very clearly saying is yes, and not yes, but yes or like it's an either or situation, with the example of coming together with the food and breaking bread together. There is so much more that's in common. Than that is different, and I think that is, it's a mindset shift.

Yeah, I absolutely, and that is one of the biggest barriers and hurdles. I think for principles to overcome is really removing that, I guess, misperception that restorative justice is about simply having a conversation, and there, if you're looking at restorative justice comprehensively as this, this way to build community, you cannot have community without the individual's accountability to that community. A community is made up of individuals, and that connection between individuals so nothing could be more powerful, I think, in shaping behavior and holding people accountable by acknowledging, hey, you have caused harm. Now you need to take accountability for that, and there are protocols and procedures that you can put into place into schools that one in a supportive way, recognize that you've caused that harm, but hold them accountable to what the community expects from them and what the community will expect from them moving forward and in their development.

So Amy, on the flip side of that, I'm always concerned about the person who was harmed. And of course, we in this model, we do spend a lot of time trying to change behavior and holding a person who's caused the harm accountable, and you even see that person having time spent with them. You know, it could be with the administrator, it could be with the counselor, it could be with the social worker, it could be with the teacher, and now that person is getting attention, and what's happening to the person that has been harmed outside of a few words or a few moments. So I think we really have to be cognizant of, how do we really ensure that the person has been harmed has been restored.

Yeah, that's such an important part of the process, and I think it speaks to to the need for enough people and resources to ensure that everyone who's a part of this process is getting the support and the attention right, that that is owed and deserved by the community. Yeah, I'm brought back to an experience where, and this is, this is part of some of the research that came from my study about re integrative shaming being a part of the restorative practice. And so an example of this would be the person who inflicted the harm maybe prepares this statement to be shared with the community that maybe they harmed, maybe they ripped up the classroom and they turned over deaths, and really caused that space to feel very unsafe. For a little bit, they were removed. De escalated, and maybe they shared, they prepared a statement, and later on, when, you know, after maybe the teacher, the social worker, had talked with the classroom community about what had happened, process the incident that student taking accountability in a way of reading that statement to the classroom, to the teacher about I was wrong to do these things. I am sorry for the things that I did. Here are my commitments and my promises as to how I will engage with this classroom community, moving forward those moments of being vulnerable and reading that statement and taking accountability, and again, in that example, both the person who caused the harm and the folks who were on the receiving end of those harmful actions, they need to receive attention and support, and they need to process that experience together.

You hinted at this earlier, as you have some ideas like your bio talked about your belief in creating positive change and equitable outcomes for individuals and communities. What are your hopes for restorative justice?

Yeah, I will start with just the co creation of restorative justice with students and with families in school, communities in District. Communities really pulling in student voice, really pulling in family voice, and school leaders and district leaders putting that into practice as they are formalizing the importance of restorative justice practices in what they do, and what I mean by that, and that's that's kind of like a second hope is in all of the school settings I was doing my research in restorative justice was it wasn't formalized in procedure or process. It was something that the school was implementing and doing, but it was not explicitly stated in a school improvement plan. It wasn't explicitly stated as part of a district strategy for addressing discipline disparities. In fact, all of the settings had discipline disparities, but because it wasn't specifically explicitly acknowledged, sometimes restorative justice also wasn't included as part of the solution. So my hope is that students, families can be a part of the process of one, acknowledging that there is an issue, and two, that we are going to specifically embrace this philosophy, this approach, these strategies to bring our community together and to implement effective discipline strategies to help students be successful in schools. And then finally, although I know that this is maybe one of the tougher or or more distant, hopes it would just be additional funding for schools so that they can really, truly put that funding to work, specifically for restorative justice.

Yeah, and I think ultimately, to get that funding, there's some kind of proof, you know, that's that's more time added back to the classroom and teaching and learning, right? So, and on the other end, what, what is the gain of that, other than feelings, right, which are very important, but when we're looking at money, yeah, and some other gains in there, other than, oh, it just made it made me feel better, which is really important. Our mental health is really important. I think it also adds more time for teaching and learning, definitely for learning. And therefore we should see also increase in test scores, increase in reading and things of that nature that we are also very concerned about. So I do think that it does get that kind of outcome,

absolutely. And there's research that supports kind of that anecdotal like, yeah, students are in the classroom more they're more positive about learning. But there is an entry. There is an opportunity to expand on the research around restorative justice, so that it is more about those outcomes, more evaluative, like, what, what really is the return on investment that we're getting as it relates to learning outcomes?

Well, very good. This has been very interesting. Yes, thank

you.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of your research, and more importantly, I want to see some of the outcomes, especially some funding. Wouldn't that be great? Yes, and see this be an actual model that many schools are using. Yeah, well, thank

you. I'm excited as well.

Thank you for being with us today. I've so enjoyed this.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr Amy and Dr Joi. Visit our website at G, O, v, s, t.edu/teaching, and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode,

we appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr Amy and Dr Joi