Listen to the song

• YouTube - https://youtu.be/h1ATm0c6AxA
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/1n11viwoaXFWfC9uZ1NFqb?si=d490e74dbe7f4994
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/best/1493029104
• Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B0837KZQLD?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_E9l5274gs9HHbWiawDsognJWu&trackAsin=B0837LFF1R

Other links

• How to End a Letter: 10 Formal Letter Closings (Grammarly)
• Playlist of the songs we’ve reviewed
• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5bn23baJ4xQ1t0TMqukELY5W95HwuMoT
• Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7gCOF5M0zYS1fBvXgT5ccI?si=7F3yVdEDRRWa_gAArK3AYg
• Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/songs-reviewed-on-the-musicians-loupe/pl.u-V9D7maah06JNo
• Amazon Music - https://music.amazon.com/user-playlists/3b47be4937b7490982f4a872db32ec8dsune?ref=dm_sh_AEFZY8KhvSsz1TGoRmasg6zHZ

Key takeaways

• Trist and Elaine review Theo Katzman’s clever 2020 song “Best,” which focuses on the emotional impact of a letter's complimentary close
• Elaine and Trist discuss the usage of breaks as accents and vocal delay for a choral effect, delving into how production techniques can make vocals sound bigger and more expressive.
• In the Mailbag segment, Trist and Elaine cover how musicians often balance several part-time gigs, and how professional groups maintain a pool of substitute performers to ensure coverage when conflicts arise

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?

Trist: Well, Elaine, this week I think

Trist: we have our first repeat

Trist: performer.

Trist: There may be a little bit of something here and there

Trist: semantically, but our first repeat vocalist, at least that I

Trist: can think of.

Elaine: Huh!

Elaine: Okay, so what do we have this week?

Trist: Well, as you may remember, for those of you who have listened

Trist: to, you know, every episode or even just the first one and for

Trist: some reason are catching us again now, we featured Vulfpeck,

Trist: one of my favorite bands in the first episode, and a member of

Trist: the group, and the lead singer of that first track was a

Trist: gentleman named Theo Katzman, who, like most of the folks in

Trist: Vulfpeck, have their own projects, their own solo gigs.

Trist: Theo has his own stuff, and I

Trist: chose a song from one of his

Trist: solo albums, and the song is

Trist: called, "Best."

Elaine: Okay. So with that, we are going to pause for just a moment.

Elaine: But before we do, Trist, can you

Elaine: remind us how we're listening to

Elaine: music as a part of the Musicians

Elaine: Loupe community?

Trist: Well, we like to encourage you

Trist: to find the best listening

Trist: position, the best listening

Trist: situation, the best listening

Trist: gear that you have, and utilize

Trist: it.

Trist: Sometimes you get a nice piece of gear and then it sits over on

Trist: the shelf and you use the faster, easier way.

Trist: So we just encourage you, if you have the ability to upgrade your

Trist: listening situation for our listening purposes while you

Trist: listen to our playlist or just this particular week's song, but

Trist: if you can't, we are thrilled to have you regardless.

Trist: Thanks a lot.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So we're going to leave the links in the show notes.

Elaine: Go ahead and pause.

Elaine: We will be right back.

Elaine: And we are back.

Elaine: Ooh, that one was really funny.

Elaine: It was really fun to listen

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: to

Trist: It's

Elaine: this

Trist: clever.

Elaine: one.

Trist: Right?

Elaine: It is incredibly clever.

Elaine: I think clever is a really good word to describe it.

Elaine: It had so much going for it.

Elaine: And it's so contemporary.

Elaine: I'm wondering actually whether

Elaine: it's going to feel dated and

Elaine: another fifteen or twenty years,

Elaine: but

Trist: Hm.

Elaine: I don't know, maybe it won't.

Trist: That's true.

Trist: Being in the writing of letters.

Trist: I suppose sending an email is still writing a letter and you

Trist: still have salutations in which you need to decide which you're

Trist: going to use.

Trist: So I guess in some ways maybe.

Trist: Yeah, I don't know.

Trist: I think it'll hang around for a while.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So tell me a little bit about

Elaine: why you chose this song out of

Elaine: all of the things that he's done?

Trist: That's really the primary thing.

Trist: I mean, I like his voice, his

Trist: musicianship is always

Trist: excellent.

Trist: He's a good songwriter, but I

Trist: just liked the cleverness of

Trist: this.

Trist: I'm a sucker for that.

Trist: And, musically nice form, cool

Trist: chords, he doesn't stay super

Trist: basic yet very singable and

Trist: catchy.

Trist: A lot of cool chords, has a nice bridge.

Trist: We love a nice bridge here on The Musician's Loupe.

Trist: Um, yeah, the whole package is just there, very slick, cool

Trist: chords in the right places without having too many of them,

Trist: just a very clever lyric.

Trist: I like odd topics.

Trist: I wouldn't have thought to write a song about that particular

Trist: topic, but that's why I like it.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So I want to suggest that we finish with the lyrics because

Elaine: we can talk about them forever.

Trist: Okay.

Elaine: And let's start with instrumentation.

Elaine: One of the things that I really loved about it was, it sounded

Elaine: very simple, very jazzy.

Elaine: And yet the more you listen to

Elaine: it, the more things popped out

Elaine: in terms of the instruments that

Elaine: he chose.

Elaine: Certainly

Trist: Right.

Elaine: starting out piano forward,

Elaine: there was this little rubato

Elaine: section leading into something

Elaine: that had a lot more rhythm to

Elaine: it.

Elaine: And so I'm wondering what you heard out of that orchestration

Elaine: as you were listening to it.

Trist: I like the different textures that outline the sections.

Trist: The verses are pretty sparse.

Trist: And again, as we've talked about many times, the textures really

Trist: help because getting the basis of what the song is about, the

Trist: lyric is pretty darn important that it really comes through.

Trist: So less stuff in the way.

Trist: There's enough rhythmic and harmonic stuff, yet still plenty

Trist: of space that the focus is what the lyrics are, so you can get

Trist: hooked into what this is about.

Trist: And then even as the textures go, you're already clued in to

Trist: what the lyric is.

Trist: So you hopefully stick there and

Trist: the lyrics never get kind of

Trist: buried.

Trist: So I love that.

Elaine: One thing that I did notice was that nothing felt like it

Elaine: attacked too much.

Elaine: Sometimes

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: with rhythm and especially with snares, you'll find snares that

Elaine: are mixed really high.

Elaine: This one, the snare didn't have as much of a sizzle on it.

Elaine: It was there, but it was tuned very low and it didn't have as

Elaine: much of the sizzle that was picked up from it.

Elaine: So I just felt like the drums were very subtle.

Elaine: They held the beat, but they weren't really overpowering.

Elaine: And so the way they were mixed was really pulled back a lot.

Trist: That's a very, typical sound for Vulfpeck, too, in the band.

Trist: So it kind of translates to some of the other things.

Trist: You're not going to get a lot of flash from a lot of that stuff.

Trist: Everything is super basic.

Trist: When you see the recordings, they'll have videos of while

Trist: they recorded, it's like super pared down drum kit without a

Trist: lot of extras.

Trist: Anyway, they just reminded me of that.

Elaine: To follow up on that, I also

Elaine: heard some vocals in the

Elaine: background that were very

Elaine: textural.

Elaine: And I know that we've talked

Elaine: about this before in the podcast

Elaine: about how background vocals have

Elaine: really filled in some of the

Elaine: spaces where some of the

Elaine: instruments haven't.

Elaine: Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Trist: Wow. You know, now that you mention them, like so focused on

Trist: the groove, the musicality, and the main lyric of the main line,

Trist: I'm trying to even hear where in my brain, where the background

Trist: vocals are, I suppose on the pre-chorus, there's maybe some.

Trist: Yeah.

Trist: Wow.

Trist: A great job of just focusing on

Trist: the lyric on the recording

Trist: because I can't even remember

Trist: where there are background

Trist: vocals.

Elaine: Well, I will say that I heard them and they were very subtle.

Elaine: They didn't stick out.

Elaine: And I think part of it is the intonation, part of it is just

Elaine: where it showed up.

Elaine: And like you said, a large part of it is just the fact that we

Elaine: are so focused on the lyrics because they're so clever.

Elaine: So I guess the last thing that I

Elaine: wanted to comment about the song

Elaine: itself was just the use of

Elaine: silence and

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: the use of break, because this

Elaine: was one where we just had a

Elaine: repeated use of a break as an

Elaine: accent.

Elaine: It just like stopped.

Elaine: And it was almost like the punch.

Elaine: It was almost like an exclamation point every time

Elaine: that he used that silence.

Elaine: Like the entire thing broke for just a like a beat, basically.

Elaine: And then went back in.

Elaine: And

Trist: Yep.

Elaine: I really appreciated that.

Elaine: That was really, really nice.

Trist: I'm always a fan of a break, a stop time, especially anything

Trist: groovy and funky.

Trist: That's the thing that makes it

Trist: groovy and funky is the space

Trist: between the notes, sometimes

Trist: literally between when you're

Trist: playing, but then accentuated by

Trist: a break.

Trist: All my favorite groove music.

Trist: You know how big of a Prince fan I am, and like, got that from

Trist: James Brown etc. like the stop at the funky section.

Trist: So that amount of space being

Trist: just right is what feels so

Trist: good.

Trist: So yeah, he nails that.

Elaine: Yeah. The thing that I did notice was that his voice, it

Elaine: sounded like there was a tiny little bit of a delay on it.

Elaine: And part of it was like, oh, it sounds doubled.

Elaine: But then the more I listened to

Elaine: it, I was like, oh, it doesn't

Elaine: sound doubled.

Elaine: Actually, it just sounds like they have a delay in the voice.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: Which I think was exactly what they did on the Vulfpeck track

Elaine: that we listened

Trist: Probably.

Elaine: to at the very beginning.

Elaine: Right.

Trist: Yeah, probably.

Elaine: Okay. Can you talk a little bit

Elaine: about why people use delay for

Elaine: that?

Elaine: what effect is it that people are going for when they're using

Elaine: the tiny bit of delay?

Trist: Using delay can achieve different things.

Trist: Within a bigger texture, when

Trist: there's a lot of stuff going on

Trist: to help fill out the sound, you

Trist: can use a little bit longer

Trist: delay that happens quietly that

Trist: you're not really aware of, of,

Trist: of, of.

Trist: So if all of those get quieter, it just is extra sound that you

Trist: might not necessarily hear it.

Trist: Now sometimes there's an effect effect effect effect effect.

Trist: Like is purpose.

Trist: Like very much you want people to hear it repeated, repeated,

Trist: repeated like that.

Trist: But a lot of times delay – and

Trist: if it's timed out like that in

Trist: time, it's often just a part of

Trist: the rhythm.

Trist: But sometimes, it's very slight.

Trist: So part of the effect that you get when you double track, when

Trist: you do two tracks of a lead, it's almost impossible to be

Trist: exactly the same as what you sang the first time, so it makes

Trist: it sound a little bigger.

Trist: So you can achieve a similar effect without having to sing

Trist: the whole vocal.

Trist: If you put the delay just milliseconds long instead of

Trist: rhythmically where it's audible.

Trist: So then it gives the illusion that there's another voice there

Trist: that happens just after.

Trist: So a lot of times it's just for

Trist: the effect in trying to make it

Trist: sound bigger.

Trist: It's just another tool in the toolbox that might be a sound

Trist: that you like.

Elaine: It triggers that choral effect, right?

Elaine: That we

Trist: Yes,

Elaine: listen for

Trist: indeed.

Elaine: that multiple voice.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: So a lot of times that's how

Trist: chorusing will happen is you'll

Trist: put two or three delays and

Trist: you'll have them at different

Trist: times.

Trist: And you'll also maybe move the

Trist: pitch a bit like change the

Trist: pitch of one, five or six cents,

Trist: one direction, two or three

Trist: cents in another direction,

Trist: because that kind of replicates

Trist: a group of people trying to sing

Trist: the exact same thing, but then

Trist: being just very, very slightly

Trist: off.

Trist: It's the same thing.

Trist: You can achieve by using a delay.

Elaine: It was interesting that you

Elaine: mentioned that, because I was

Elaine: watching a reel on Instagram of

Elaine: these two singers who were

Elaine: trying to do this choral effect,

Elaine: and they sang the same line over

Elaine: and over again, but as different

Elaine: people.

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: And so they actually had the

Elaine: intonation in different places

Elaine: because they

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: were like, here's the campy version,

Trist: Right.

Elaine: here's the like chorally trained version,

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: here is the pop version.

Elaine: They sang all of these together

Elaine: and then mixed them all together

Elaine: for that

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: choral sound, just overdubbing themselves in this way to sound

Elaine: more like a crowd singing.

Elaine: And so

Trist: Right.

Elaine: funny that you were mentioning

Elaine: that, because I was just

Elaine: remembering that video that they

Elaine: made to show how they actually

Elaine: did this.

Trist: And then using that technique a lot of times, and they may have

Trist: done this too, but you'll even stand different distances from

Trist: the microphone that you use because that replicates if you

Trist: had twenty people.

Trist: Of course, there's somebody that's three or four people

Trist: behind you, two or three feet farther away from the microphone

Trist: than those in front.

Trist: So you'll stand in different places in the room if you're

Trist: trying to replicate a group.

Elaine: Yeah, I love this.

Elaine: Okay, we are finally going to get into the lyrics.

Elaine: I

Trist: Okay.

Elaine: know you want to talk about

Trist: Yes.

Elaine: them.

Trist: No, I know you want to talk about

Elaine: I,

Trist: them.

Elaine: yeah, I definitely want to talk about them because I love the

Elaine: lyrics of this song.

Elaine: And I think a big part of it is that even in the midst of the

Elaine: cleverness, even in the midst of the rant, this person's

Elaine: situation is revealed over the course of the

Trist: So.

Elaine: song.

Elaine: Like we don't find out very much about it until the chorus.

Elaine: So we have a full 30s of this guy singing about this thing

Elaine: that we're like, oh, okay, it's building up this tension.

Elaine: Then we find out in the chorus that he is really upset because

Elaine: all of the days that they spend together, this is a non-trivial

Elaine: amount of time that these people have spent together.

Elaine: And he's feeling upset because

Elaine: this person signed off a letter

Elaine: or an email or whatever it is

Elaine: with "best."

Elaine: And,

Trist: Right.

Elaine: um, and then we find out more later in the bridge.

Elaine: And I know that you and I have talked about bridges before and

Elaine: how bridges are really the moment of truth.

Elaine: You find out so much more.

Elaine: This is

Trist: This

Elaine: exactly

Trist: is exactly

Elaine: when

Trist: when

Elaine: the crux

Trist: the.

Elaine: of the song is, is often in the bridge.

Elaine: We don't find out until the

Elaine: verse right after the bridge

Elaine: exactly the nature of the

Elaine: relationship.

Elaine: And so in the bridge, it is very

Elaine: clever because it talks about

Elaine: all of these different things

Elaine: that this person could have

Elaine: written instead.

Elaine: And

Trist: Right.

Elaine: then in the verse right after that, it talks about the sexual

Elaine: relationship that they had.

Elaine: And this intimacy that they shared.

Elaine: And you find out the depth of his hurt.

Elaine: And I think a big part of it is that you realize at that point

Elaine: in time that it wasn't just because he felt dismissed, it

Elaine: was because he felt betrayed, because all of this time that

Elaine: they had spent together, was in some ways almost dismissed

Elaine: because of the word "best."

Elaine: And so I just thought that was

Elaine: really clever, the way that he

Elaine: brought us along on this

Elaine: journey.

Elaine: And we don't find out until near the end of the song exactly why

Elaine: he is so upset.

Trist: I love that.

Trist: I dig it also how we can read into something like that.

Trist: Like maybe it was intentional,

Trist: maybe not, maybe whatever letter

Trist: that was written to him tried to

Trist: be more heartfelt, tried to

Trist: connect, whatever.

Trist: But of all the things that were

Trist: said, the fact that just the

Trist: salutation is the thing that

Trist: seemed like it was

Trist: representative of the feelings,

Trist: like who knows what was in the

Trist: letter?

Trist: The whole letter might have been amazingly well written and

Trist: heartfelt and talked to him about how great everything was.

Trist: It's too bad it had to end.

Trist: But he gets stuck on the fact that she chose "best" instead

Elaine: Okay,

Trist: of all the other options.

Elaine: so here's where my grammar nerd comes out.

Elaine: So I

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: had to look up like, what do you call that last thing that you

Elaine: write before you write your name in a letter?

Elaine: And apparently

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: it's called the complimentary close.

Trist: Oh.

Elaine: And so a salutation is like, dear, so and so, right.

Elaine: And like the complimentary because I'd forgotten it, I was

Elaine: just like, what do you call that

Trist: Oh.

Elaine: thing?

Elaine: What

Trist: Was

Elaine: do you

Trist: I

Elaine: call

Trist: was

Elaine: sincerely?

Trist: I misusing that?

Trist: Was I calling

Elaine: Uh,

Trist: it the

Elaine: yeah.

Trist: greedy?

Elaine: So, um,

Trist: I thought

Elaine: I

Trist: the greetings

Elaine: found,

Trist: was okay.

Elaine: yeah, so I looked this up right before we recorded the podcast

Elaine: and there was an amazing blog post that I found on Grammarly

Elaine: that we're going to link into the show notes.

Elaine: And it's basically like writing tips.

Elaine: How to end a letter.

Elaine: And I'm going to read a couple

Elaine: of segments out of this blog

Elaine: post because I felt like it

Elaine: applied exactly to this letter

Elaine: and maybe like adds a couple

Elaine: more nails to this coffin,

Elaine: right?

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: So here's the first quote.

Elaine: "Your letter closing is the last

Elaine: thing your recipient will read,

Elaine: which is why it's essential to

Elaine: end a formal letter or email

Elaine: appropriately.

Elaine: How you end your letter can dictate how your recipient

Elaine: receives your message and the overall impression you leave.

Elaine: It can also set the tone for

Elaine: future communications, build

Elaine: rapport with the recipient, or

Elaine: strengthen an existing

Elaine: relationship."

Elaine: And I was like, ooh, "best."

Elaine: Okay.

Elaine: So the second one is "How you

Elaine: end your letter should reflect

Elaine: your relationship with the

Elaine: recipient.

Elaine: If your letter is addressed to a

Elaine: manager or supervisor, your

Elaine: closing should convey respect or

Elaine: deference."

Elaine: And I was like, ooh, "best."

Elaine: That is a sign off there, right?

Elaine: So the third quote is "Your

Elaine: closing should match your

Elaine: overall purpose.

Elaine: The reason you're sending the letter.

Elaine: If you're writing specifically to request something or to

Elaine: express gratitude, your letter should close with an

Elaine: appreciative sign off."

Elaine: I'm like, oh, "best," right?

Elaine: And so like all three of these, as I was reading this with the

Elaine: context of this song, I was like, oh, the word "best" has a

Elaine: lot of connotation to it.

Trist: That's amazing.

Trist: Yeah, I love it.

Trist: Again, it's so clever.

Trist: Without saying it's like you could have said anything else,

Trist: you could have said all of these other things and it would have

Trist: been better than "best."

Elaine: In the chorus itself, he does talk about some of the things

Elaine: that he would have preferred.

Elaine: You could have told me to get lost.

Elaine: You

Trist: Sure,

Elaine: could have told me to just like, go away.

Trist: sure.

Elaine: Right.

Elaine: And none of that really happened.

Elaine: The fact that the song is fixated on this word is on the

Elaine: one hand, so hilarious.

Elaine: And on the other hand, it's also very understandable.

Elaine: And I think part of the tragedy of the song is that he is

Elaine: sitting here grieving not only the relationship, but he's also

Elaine: grieving the way that he was treated at the very end.

Elaine: And

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: so to your point, I think the

Elaine: letter could have been very well

Elaine: constructed, could have been

Elaine: very helpful, could have been

Elaine: very complimentary.

Elaine: But it did end with something that he found very personally

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: offensive.

Elaine: And so, yeah, the rant is on the one hand, so funny and at the

Elaine: same time just heartbreaking.

Trist: Such a good one.

Trist: Clever.

Trist: Very good writer.

Trist: Lots of his songs are very well done.

Trist: But I liked this one.

Elaine: Okay, well, any last things to

Elaine: say about this song before we

Elaine: move on?

Trist: Oh, I think that's it.

Trist: Just a real good one.

Trist: You got to pay attention to all the lyrics on.

Trist: Love it.

Elaine: Well, thanks for bringing this to us.

Trist: Of course.

Elaine: So we're going to move along to our next segment, which is.

Trist: Mailbag.

Elaine: That's right. The Mailbag.

Elaine: And you can reach us by emailing us at themusiciansloupe, that's

Elaine: L o u p e at gmail dot com.

Elaine: Or by sending us a message on

Elaine: either Threads or on Instagram

Elaine: @themusiciansloupe.

Trist: Yes, that would be the place to let us know your thoughts about

Trist: this week's song, or any of the other stuff from Theo's catalog.

Trist: Or the way that you like to end your letter when you really want

Trist: to prove a point, you can let us know any of those things.

Trist: Also love for you to check out the playlists.

Trist: All of the platforms that we are on have a section where you can

Trist: check out the playlist of all of the songs we have covered.

Trist: So send that out to friends, family, heck, send it to people

Trist: you don't even like.

Trist: Spread the word.

Trist: Let them know that we're here,

Trist: and there may be some songs on

Trist: there that they can just enjoy

Trist: by themselves.

Trist: But if they hear the playlist and there's a song that stands

Trist: out to them, they'd love to know more about it.

Trist: You can point them to us.

Elaine: All right, so this week's Mailbag comes from Threads.

Elaine: It is a post from Casey Shelnutt music from January of 2026.

Elaine: And she writes fact colon full time musician doesn't mean

Elaine: you're on the road gigging 24 / 7 or have a full time position

Elaine: with an orchestra or signed with a record label.

Elaine: It can also mean colon choir

Elaine: accompanist, private music

Elaine: teacher, studio recording

Elaine: artist, audio engineer,

Elaine: composer, church musician,

Elaine: songwriter, wedding musician,

Elaine: pit musician, orchestra sub,

Elaine: arranger, ensemble director,

Elaine: band director.

Elaine: What else did I miss?

Trist: Yeah, this is true of really most arts careers.

Trist: Living in Los Angeles, there are a lot of us, friends of mine, me

Trist: included, who consider ourselves full time musicians.

Trist: But yeah, I don't have just one job.

Trist: There are varied things.

Trist: Some have one full time musician type job that kind of really

Trist: does what they need to do, but they seek out other things on

Trist: their own to fill the coffers and fill the creativity.

Trist: And sometimes they don't have that perfect.

Trist: They have several small part

Trist: time musician jobs that makes

Trist: what they do and gets their

Trist: bills paid.

Trist: So yeah, we can relate with that.

Trist: I have a lot of friends that do

Trist: all of those things that she

Trist: listed.

Trist: I'm much in that mode myself.

Trist: Not on the road all the time, but I am a bit.

Trist: And then sometimes I'm home and you're just piecing it together.

Trist: In some ways it can get a little tiring.

Trist: It'd be great if you just had one thing, but in a lot of ways

Trist: I enjoy that.

Trist: It gives you a lot of variety.

Elaine: I feel like there is something about that.

Elaine: Certainly there are people who I know who have one primary gig.

Elaine: Whether it is a group that they belong to or they're a full time

Elaine: music teacher or they're just doing private lessons.

Elaine: But I think for the people who

Elaine: are gigging, there are a lot of

Elaine: people who you and I both know

Elaine: in common.

Elaine: And I feel like the average is

Elaine: somewhere between five and ten,

Elaine: where it's like you have five to

Elaine: ten things going at every given

Elaine: point in time when we find this

Elaine: out because it's like, oh yeah,

Elaine: today I'm singing with this

Elaine: group.

Elaine: Today I'm singing with this group.

Elaine: I'm at a wedding this time.

Elaine: I'm playing a bar tonight.

Elaine: And so I think that it is something for us to think about.

Elaine: Like, how do you patch together?

Elaine: How do you I don't even say patch together.

Elaine: How do you construct a career

Elaine: out of all of these ongoing but

Elaine: infrequent gigs?

Elaine: And especially

Trist: Right?

Elaine: if you're a local musician

Elaine: versus a touring musician, I

Elaine: feel like more of my local

Elaine: musicians are doing that kind of

Elaine: thing.

Elaine: Like they have a church gig.

Elaine: They have a regular thing that they're doing at a club.

Elaine: They have three different bands that they're playing with, like

Elaine: that kind of thing I feel like is more standard than maybe most

Elaine: people would think.

Trist: And that really goes with any kind of gig work.

Trist: Other arts, actors, musicians, other artists, other mediums,

Trist: lots of that, you've got some work for hire and then stuff you

Trist: do on your own.

Trist: Obviously lots of the stereotype

Trist: is actors and musicians being

Trist: wait staff, so sometimes those

Trist: extra jobs that aren't really

Trist: even directly related to your

Trist: profession.

Trist: I guess at least the way that

Trist: she's putting it, it's cool that

Trist: you have to do all of those

Trist: things to get it to be a full

Trist: time musician, but at least all

Trist: of those are music that she

Trist: listed.

Trist: She didn't list all the other things that that musicians can

Trist: end up doing to pay the rent that aren't music.

Trist: I think of it that way rather than, oh man, I have to piece

Trist: together all of these things to make it work.

Trist: It's like, if all of these

Trist: things are all related to my

Trist: industry, then that's pretty

Trist: great.

Trist: Not having to have another quote

Trist: unquote day job or working for

Trist: someone else doing something

Trist: that's not related to your

Trist: interests.

Elaine: It is interesting to think about

Elaine: like, I have known people who

Elaine: have done both where, some

Elaine: people that we know in common

Elaine: were working at a bank or as a

Elaine: programmer, and it was

Elaine: definitely their secondary

Elaine: thing.

Elaine: It was more

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: a contract work for them to do that secondary thing.

Elaine: But I think there's also some

Elaine: people who have two primary part

Elaine: time things.

Elaine: Like I was talking with a friend of mine a couple of years ago,

Elaine: and he was someone who for a long time was doing, I'd say

Elaine: like more seasonal work.

Elaine: So this is more pit orchestra, music direction kind of stuff.

Elaine: So that would be for a season,

Elaine: for two months or whatnot of

Elaine: rehearsals and then doing a

Elaine: show.

Elaine: and then he would also do private music lessons.

Elaine: But when I talked to him most recently, he'd stopped all of

Elaine: that because he had two primary part time consistent gigs.

Elaine: So he had a church gig that was fifty percent.

Elaine: And then he added a school gig that was fifty percent.

Elaine: Both of them were doing music, so music directing.

Elaine: And then the other one, he was supporting a music teacher, like

Elaine: by playing piano and

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: he was feeling pretty content with that level of balance that

Elaine: he had in doing these two things that balanced really well with

Elaine: his personal life.

Elaine: I think he was getting his, um,

Elaine: like medical care through one of

Elaine: them.

Elaine: And so it's one of those things

Elaine: that I felt was a really

Elaine: encouraging thing to think about

Elaine: like how he was able to find

Elaine: something that was long term and

Elaine: consistent.

Elaine: I think you and I both know of

Elaine: people who aren't working

Elaine: seasonal jobs.

Elaine: They are working pretty

Elaine: consistent jobs over and over

Elaine: again.

Elaine: And that's actually giving them

Elaine: that level of stability that

Elaine: they want and being in the arts

Elaine: as well.

Trist: Indeed, indeed.

Trist: Everyone just figures out what they have to do and then also

Trist: depends on their other what other what other things are

Trist: happening with their family, what their other life needs are

Trist: and where their limit is and how they have to pace themselves.

Trist: Everyone has their own way about it.

Elaine: I'd really like to flip this on this head, though.

Elaine: And think about how professional groups handle the people who

Elaine: have multiple gigs.

Elaine: And so I know that you've been

Elaine: in a couple of professional

Elaine: groups where you just need

Elaine: coverage because someone has

Elaine: another gig that might be making

Elaine: more money or it just has a

Elaine: conflict.

Elaine: And so how do the professional groups that tour make sure that

Elaine: they can have their people on site or have a person on site?

Elaine: Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Trist: Well, it really depends on what your deal is.

Trist: If you're a part of the

Trist: ownership of a group, then your

Trist: flexibility is going to be

Trist: different.

Trist: Like you're a mandatory thing.

Trist: There are some bands and things

Trist: where there are front people and

Trist: then whoever's assisting in the

Trist: back in the band, maybe their

Trist: face isn't necessarily important

Trist: to the gig, as weird as that is

Trist: to say.

Trist: You just need someone that's good at whatever, playing the

Trist: piano, playing the bass.

Trist: If it's an act that no one is there to see that particular

Trist: bass player because the name on the bill doesn't include them.

Trist: So it doesn't really matter.

Trist: This actually goes back to last week's episode of Tommy Dorsey

Trist: having the Sentimentalists.

Trist: Theoretically, even though it

Trist: was always the Clark Sisters, if

Trist: he fired them, he could hire

Trist: other people and still just call

Trist: them the Sentimentalists,

Trist: because people didn't know who

Trist: they were.

Trist: So easy to have subs then.

Trist: So thank you long time listeners.

Trist: If you listen to these two in a

Trist: row, you got a little bonus

Trist: coverage.

Trist: If you're a 1099, just part time worker for a group and there's

Trist: some conflicts, you have more choices like, well, hey, you

Trist: don't think of me as a full time, like I'm the essential

Trist: person slash owner in the group.

Trist: So here's these times where I have this other thing to do.

Trist: I guess you have to find somebody else.

Trist: Usually that's dealt with way

Trist: more professionally, and the

Trist: person that needs to be out will

Trist: help.

Trist: Even if on paper they're not really required to help.

Trist: Of course, you're usually family by that point and you're wanting

Trist: things to be good and copacetic with your band mates.

Trist: So every situation is different.

Trist: I know situations where it's

Trist: literally the person that has to

Trist: miss shows, hey, here's the

Trist: shows I'm missing and that's all

Trist: they do.

Trist: And then they don't go to the shows and somebody takes care of

Trist: getting them covered.

Trist: And I know different groups where someone's like, hey, I

Trist: can't do this one, but I've auditioned a guy, I've got him

Trist: all ready to go.

Trist: I've got it figured out.

Trist: He's going to be perfect for you.

Trist: Here's your replacement.

Trist: And so every situation is unique.

Elaine: I feel like there are a lot of groups that you and I both know

Elaine: who just have a pool of subs.

Elaine: And you have your primary

Elaine: person, but if your primary

Elaine: person can't make it for some

Elaine: reason, you have a pool of

Elaine: people who you can call up for

Elaine: that gig.

Elaine: And so it really is developing that bench and making sure that

Elaine: you have people who can step in.

Elaine: I think you're right, though, there is also the sense of where

Elaine: are the gigs where everyone has to make it and where are the

Elaine: gigs where, oh, someone else could step in for this part.

Elaine: I'm also thinking about the LHR

Elaine: Project, which you're running as

Elaine: well, which is really built as a

Elaine: collective.

Elaine: Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Trist: Sure. For those who don't know, I have a project that's a

Trist: tribute to Lambert, Hendricks and Ross, the jazz singing trio

Trist: from the 50s and 60s.

Trist: And while it was a one time only

Trist: gig at first, and the singers

Trist: that I got for that show are

Trist: busy and they're really good at

Trist: doing this gig, which is why I

Trist: found them and wanted them to do

Trist: it.

Trist: So we had a great time, but

Trist: they're so busy that they can't

Trist: do it every time I get a gig

Trist: proposal.

Trist: So I realized I needed to

Trist: diversify, and I have a handful

Trist: of others that can also do the

Trist: job.

Trist: Again, unique in this instance,

Trist: because the makeup of this

Trist: particular singing group doesn't

Trist: require a lot of balance and

Trist: blending.

Trist: And like, it's not a group vocal.

Trist: Like you think of most vocal groups like the Four Freshmen or

Trist: the Manhattan Transfer or anything that requires hours of

Trist: matching your vowels and getting a good group sound.

Trist: It's like three horn players

Trist: that just show up at a gig and

Trist: play jazz.

Trist: So it's kind of like the vocal version of that.

Trist: So luckily, changing members doesn't really change the show

Trist: all that much.

Elaine: It's interesting to think about

Elaine: it from that perspective,

Elaine: especially as we're talking

Elaine: about the industry, we're

Elaine: talking about how you construct

Elaine: your business really, especially

Elaine: if you have multiple people

Elaine: involved.

Elaine: So any last thoughts about this before we close out?

Trist: No, it is true though.

Trist: Full time musician is rarely just one job.

Elaine: All right.

Elaine: So with that we're going to close out.

Elaine: Like we mentioned before, please

Elaine: do share an episode or the

Elaine: playlist.

Elaine: We would love to get more people listening to us.

Elaine: And we know that you know the

Elaine: right people to share these

Elaine: podcasts with.

Elaine: So with that, thank you for joining us this week and we'll

Elaine: see you next week.

Trist: Thank you.

Elaine: What is my reaction to this one?

Trist: I'm so sorry.

Trist: Say that one more time.

Elaine: Okay, so last thing I know that I said the last thing was the

Elaine: last thing, but, um, I'm like, oh no. Okay.

Elaine: For some reason I thought that was supposed to come at the end.