Do you want to increase your self-awareness in the workplace?

In the latest episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I am joined by Nia Thomas, Director of a children's charity and host of the "Knowing Self, Knowing Others" podcast. We have an in-depth conversation about the importance of self-awareness and making conscious choices about behavior, especially in the workplace.

Nia discusses the challenges of giving and receiving feedback, and provides strategies for delivering tough feedback as a line manager. We explore the enduring nature of self-awareness, its historical roots, and the constant movement between internal and external self-awareness.

In addition, Nia shares valuable insights into the impact of behavior on individuals and emphasises the need for leaders at all levels to seek feedback from their team members.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The importance of self-awareness and making conscious choices about behavior, especially in the workplace.
• The challenges of giving and receiving feedback, and provides strategies for delivering tough feedback as a line manager.
• The constant movement between internal and external self-awareness.
• The impact of behavior on individuals
• The need for leaders at all levels to seek feedback from their team members

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Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

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Previous Episodes:

Episode 48: Zoe Routh on Leadership and Self-Awareness

Episode 85: Why Delivering Effective and Constructive Feedback at Work is so Vital with Aoife O’Brien

Resources mentioned:

Dr Tasha Eurich book Insight 

Marshall Goldsmith 

Nia, you're so welcome to the Happy at Work podcast. I know we've been talking about this for a while, so it's really great to finally have the opportunity to collaborate on this. Do you want to let people know a little bit about yourself and what brought you to doing what you're doing today?

Yeah. Certainly. And it is just lovely to be here with you. I'm a fan of the podcast myself, so to be here and have the conversation, it's really, really great. So I'm Nia Thomas, and I am a director of a children's charity. But I also have an alter ego. So I'm the host of a podcast myself, and I recently produced my book, which has come from my doctoral thesis, which I did from, 2016 to 2021. And my area of interest, it it transpired that it was self aware leadership, and at least that's what I call it these days.

So the way I describe it is that being a director of a children's charity is what I do and self aware leadership is how I do it.

Brilliant. I love that. And how do you define self awareness? Like, what what does that mean to you?

Well, when I was trying to understand self awareness so I'm I'm I'm talking about from an academic perspective. It was about reading the literature. What are people saying?

Yeah.

And there seemed to be this notion of internal self awareness and external self awareness. Mhmm. But the more and more I read, I felt that there were there was there was this gap in between those two layers that sort of that sort of joined the 2, really. So for me, the more I came to know it and the more I've I've come to talk to others about my definition, it's reflection of your hard and relational skills. And relational skills is used very deliberately rather than soft skills because I really don't think they are. Then it's recognition of your impact. So that's that part in the middle where we connect with others. And then there's that third outer layer, which is regulation of your behavior.

So, really, we are moving in and out of our 3 layers all of the time. We are reflecting on our behavior because we've recognized our impact. We are moving between the 2. Then we decide, actually, I want to behave in a slightly different way, and I'm regulating my behavior, and then I'm reflecting on it again. So it's a constant movement in and out of these 3 layers. So listeners and watchers will have probably heard other people talking about 2 layers, but mine is a 3 layer definition. So reflection, recognition, regulation.

Yeah. I'm I'm not sure that people necessarily know even that level of detail. You having done all of the academic research, you know what people are saying out there. You've identified this gap. But for my own nonacademic perception of what self awareness is is that people think that they are more self aware than they are. And I remember having this conversation when I was doing the masters. We kinda had a laugh about it, and then we're privately thinking to ourselves, I'm so much more self aware than that other person. And it's becomes this almost comparison thing where we're like, I'm so self aware.

But maybe let's explore that idea in a little bit more detail. Like, where does this concept come from, this idea of self awareness? Why do we want to be more self aware, and why is it good to be set more self aware or have a better level of self awareness?

This idea of self awareness seems to be an enduring one, and Socrates was talking about it. Okay. Yeah. The the all of the philosophers around him were talking about it. So the phrase know thyself is what people might recognize when we're talking about self awareness. And it's this idea that we want to understand our blind spots. We want to know what people are saying behind us. Do they what do they know about us that we don't know about ourselves? And we we desperately want to both know what self awareness is, and we want to be self aware.

So there's there's this constant striving to define it. So even though I have a 3 layer definition, when I talk to people on my podcast, I often say to them, how do you define self awareness? And the number of people that will say, well, when you ask me that question, I thought it's gonna be something very simple like know thyself. But the more you think about it, there's lots and lots of different layers to that definition. So it's this enduring, journey of self awareness, which is which is why I talk about a journey of self awareness, not a journey to self awareness.

Okay.

Because we have different things that will happen in our lives. We have births, deaths, marriages, changes of job. And with all of those things, we come into contact with different people, and different people change us. We respond differently to different people. We like some. We don't like others as much. And that behavior changes us. And if you think about working with a person that you really like when you're having a difficult time in your personal life, you behave differently, then you have a wonderful time in your personal life, but you have somebody that you really don't get on with in your world of work, and then you all of a sudden you behave differently again.

And your awareness of that recognition, that central layer of the definition, you're constantly moving in and out of it because my view is that both self awareness and leadership are socially constructed. We can't do any of these things on our own.

Yeah.

So, self awareness is is not something that we can do on our own. Self awareness on your own is simply introspection, and leadership when you're on your own is simply mastery. So you have to have others to be able to determine whether they want to follow you, and others are are key in determining whether you are self aware. So the other part of your question was how self aware are we really? So, doctor Tasha Uhrick has got a book called insight, and she has done studies around the the percentages of people that who think they are self aware versus the people who really are self aware. And if you read those statistics, it's a bit scary, and it's probably you're probably one of those people who is less self aware than you think you are. But there's I'm

not saying that.

There's very interesting research done, and we we refer to it as the Dunning Kruger effect Oh, yes. Which suggests that the less competent we are, the more confident we are. Yes. And I tend to talk about it in in terms of, empty vessels make most noise.

Mhmm.

And that the people who are often talking about their capabilities are not necessarily those people who are most capable. Mhmm. So there is interesting studies. There's there particularly studies, where women are involved. And the people who are directly report people who directly report to women will identify that they find that they are more self aware than their male counterparts, but women identify themselves as being less effective performers. So there's this peculiar dichotomy in terms of as you become more self aware, you realize how little you know about the world, and that puts you in a position where you are are, that you have this very long list and an increasingly long list of things that you don't know. And therefore, you almost step back into a position where I must be in incapable. I must be less able, and and I guess this is where it links to this idea of imposter syndrome.

And I've always wondered whether imposter syndrome, does that increase as our self awareness increases because we suddenly, have this awareness of all of those things that we don't know, all of those things that we can't do, and does that feed imposter syndrome? So in terms of self awareness and awareness, as we increase in our awareness that what Socrates talked about is that philosophy of the more we know, the less we know or the less we realize we know. So it's that constant journey of, I now realize that there is something else in the world that I don't know about. So you have developed an awareness of what you don't know. Yeah. But it's that not knowing that makes us feel less able and and less, less perform as if we perform less well. Yeah. So it's that constant challenge.

It's so interesting, I think. And coming back to this idea of it being a journey, to me, I'm thinking it's a journey because there's no destination. You don't suddenly arrive at a place where, like, right now, I'm 100% self aware. It's constantly a journey, and it's probably really hard to articulate your level of self awareness. And I want to come back to that point in a second, but what I wanted to share with you and, again, this is the idea of the Dunning Kruger effect. I've seen imposter syndrome and use kind of in conjunction with the Dunning Kruger effect where when we have a low level of competence, we're highly confident because we don't know what we don't know, and then it's the slippery slope. The more we know, the more we realize there's so much more to know, and our level of confidence drops. And that is imposter syndrome because we realize but then the other side of that curve is more about that, the learning and building up the skills.

So I think there is another side, but you're absolutely right in saying that going from I think I know everything, and I'm highly confident. I'm trying this thing for the first time because you don't know what you don't know. And then suddenly, your confidence drops a lot, and you might start feeling a bit of an imposter syndrome because you realize just how much you don't know. I would love to come back to this concept of other and what others say and how self awareness can only exist in a what what was the word you used? It's socially constructed, and we it's not something that we can do on our own. And I think that's so interesting to me because oftentimes we think that self awareness is awareness of ourselves and the word that you use, introspection, and it's about introspection. But, actually, self awareness is in the context of those relationships that we have and understanding ourselves and our behavior and how we react and how we show up. So I'd love to understand a little bit more about that and and how that works.

Well, the the notion of emotional intelligence is often viewed as having self awareness, as an element, of its definition. Yeah. My definition of self awareness is that self awareness has emotional intelligence as an element of its definition. So it's the other way around. So there's this there's this, question of does self awareness contain emotional intelligence, or does emotional intel intelligence contain self awareness? I'm on the self awareness side, and I do have this view that self awareness is far greater than emotional intelligence. It's it's a far a bigger element. So in terms of I'm gonna ask to repeat that question.

It's it's understanding it in the context. So it's the context, I suppose, of the relationships. So it's not it's not introspection. It's more about how we show up and the relationships that we have and what that means for self awareness. Like, what does that actually mean? So it's about the relationships more so than than the introspection, which I think a lot of people think that it's this idea of of being more introspective and understanding ourselves more. But I suppose what I would like to bring in is it's the context in which that occurs.

Definitely. And if we are thinking about this 3 layer definition of self awareness, reflection is the first part. But if you are constantly looking inwards, then that doesn't really mirror the realities of our situation as human beings because we are very social creatures. And I think COVID really demonstrated to us that when we were we're social distancing, just how much we needed each other. Mhmm. So if we think of self awareness in isolation, it doesn't really help us to build those relationships. It doesn't help us build our behavior so that we can become more relational creatures. So if we think about self awareness as introspection, it helps us understand what our thoughts, our beliefs, our values, our strengths, our weaknesses are.

But if we are individuals and we work in a workplace where there are generally other people, how do we relate to those people? Are we the individual that is always falling out with people? Are we always the individual who's being called into the manager's office to have one of those difficult conversations about are we tipping into bullying and harassment, etcetera. Therefore, the question is, can self awareness ever be something that we do as an isolated How do we change our interaction? Because my firm belief is that if we are not self aware, it has an impact ultimately on us as individuals. So if we want to get on in the world, if we want to have happy lives, if we want to have good relationships with our families and our, our colleagues in the workplace, we need to be working on our behavior, our communication as part of a relationship. And my concern is, and I suppose it's one of the reasons why I'm so interested in self awareness, is if they were not making conscious choices about what we are doing, the impact ultimately comes back to us. So if we are not thinking about how we communicate with others, whether we're being reflect, whether be we are being respectful to others, whether we are communicating in a way that's conducive to positive relationships, that ultimately comes back to us, and we are the ones that are not included to the staff party. We're the ones that are not given that opportunity to be promoted. We don't get the next job.

Yeah.

So it's about how do we reciprocate that behavior, and how do we move in a world where we can't get away from other people?

I have some kind of maybe some tricky questions now in relation to this. Something I'm thinking of is it's a little bit chicken and egg. So say I am the person who gets pulled into the manager's office, who doesn't get invited to the social outings as part of work. And as an individual, of course, I'm gonna blame other people, and I'm gonna say, well, that's them. That's not me. Even though it could be a recurring pattern and it it's happening in every workplace I go to, I'm still saying it's other people and it's not me. How do I then start to become self aware? And I'm saying it's a tricky question because, you know, it's it's more something I'd love to explore. So if someone's listening to this today and they're still finding themselves in all of these tricky sit situations, the common denominator in those situations is themselves.

What triggers someone to go on, let's say, like, that journey of self awareness to go, hang on. Maybe there's something here. Maybe I need to look into myself and look at how I'm behaving and look at how I'm relating to other people.

It's a question that I've asked lots of coaches, and I often ask, do you need to come to coaching with an element of self awareness, or can you start coaching and develop self awareness? And the answer is both. And it it's about how do you have those conversations to open up awareness. So if you are coming to coaching because your manager or if you're having a conversation with your line manager about poor performance, maybe the awareness starts with that performance. So if I'm the individual that never gets invited, never has the promotion, is, you know, has the second warning on file, etcetera, and this is the 3rd time in my employment that this has happened, why don't we start with looking at the performance? Because then I think you have the ability to unpick the performance. You have an ability to unpick and start the conversation about relationships, which then it might open the conversation to having a a self awareness assessment, maybe a 360 degree assessment.

Yeah.

Because that then has the opportunity to start to uncover some of those blind spots that you may have. And I but I think it does have to come back to you as an individual to say, am I interested in knowing more? Am I curious, or am I still in this fixed mindset of it is everybody else, and I've made my choice, and I am happy where I am. And I think that's the point where an individual has to make a choice, I think. And I think this comes back to when we are behaving, my fervent hope, and that's why I do what I do, is that people are able to make a choice as to how they behave. If they behave in such a way that that continues the, the the it means they continue not having, promotions or invitations to job interviews. If they are doing that from a place of choice, then I can sleep easy. But if people are in this situation and they don't know that they have choices, then I think it's incumbent on us as line managers and leaders to start that conversation about performance that helps us move into the conversation about self awareness, that helps us to start unpicking, to pique the curiosity of individuals to say, oh, actually, I never thought about that. Maybe it is me.

Maybe if I did something different, maybe you could test out speaking in a different way, using different language, see what happens in your relationship with others, and then that starts to move people forward. But I think it's about raising the awareness of individuals that they have choices about how they behave, and their behavior has consequences on them as individuals. And if they are making those conscious choices, then that is a good place for them to be. But if they're not making conscious choices, then we need to support others to move to that position.

I love how you've explained that. I absolutely like, so what I'm taking away from that is or one of the things that I that I kind of heard was if someone is continuing in the behavior that's maybe not that helpful, it's about challenging the performance and the impact that it's having on them because I don't believe that people would choose to have those things happen to them, to be reprimanded, to not be included, to not be invited to things. And so when you're talking about this idea of having a fixed mindset versus being curious, I think that's such a great way to to test out that level of curiosity and openness to change and openness to the fact that maybe it is something to do with me. Maybe I can show up in a different way. And, you know, I mean, we're not talking necessarily necessarily about feedback here, but I think feedback is really an important part of that. And and sometimes people really shy away from delivering feedback or they don't deliver it in an effective way, or they don't know how to give effective feedback. But I think it's a really important skill to learn for people to be able to communicate that, especially if they're talking about performance and the impact on the team and how people are showing up the in the way they behave as opposed to putting a blanket statement of, like, that is your personality and you are this way forever. It's knowing, actually, this is how your behavior is impacting on the team just so you're aware of this is the the you know, you may not intentionally be putting this vibe out there, but that's how it's coming across.

And this is the impact that it's having. And you have a choice here now whether you continue to behave in that in that way with these impacts, with these consequences, or you can think about a different way and understand more about yourself and what's going on for you to make those changes.

Most definitely. And I think you're absolutely right about feedback. And I've read lots of books that give you different models of how to give feedback, been to different courses that talk about different ways of giving feedback. And I always come back to, after 25 years in the world of work, giving feedback is hard, especially when you know it's negative feedback. There is no way around that. What I have found is the more you practice, you the if you are able to set an agenda, have a script. Practice that script so that when you are in an emotionally charged situation with somebody who may be, responding very negatively to the feedback that you're giving. You have got some, phrases that you have practiced, some words that you know you need to come back to because you have to work through this feedback for it to be useful.

And what I've certainly, my my response to feedback is that every time I have given negative feedback to a colleague, I have had such growth in my own professional experience, and that individual has been, placed in an opportunity where they can make a choice, that they can change, they can leverage support from others because now they this feedback is on the table. This particular challenge is on the table. They are in a position to say, you're my manager. Can you help me? Can you support me? What can we do? What I've also found about feedback is that there are lots and lots of people who have behavior that ultimately damages them in the workplace Yeah. But they've never had feedback about it. And it's that, you know, you can I've been working with so and so for 5 years and their behavior has always been like this, but has anybody actually said something to them about this? And it's that one time that they that you have a manager who who is brave, takes the that courage, and gives that feedback, it really opens up an opportunity for that individual. So very difficult, tough thing to do. Absolutely do it.

Yeah. I'd love to drill into this a bit more because I know so many listeners will relate to this. And I have a client who recently shared that there's someone she works with, and he's quite a difficult character. And everyone knows that, and and the way he's behaving does no favors for him in that organization whatsoever. I don't know whether he has received that feedback. That's something I can take back to her and kind of challenge on that. But I think most people are afraid. And with the same client as well, I think her manager had previously managed this other person, and he is expecting her to deliver that feedback even though he didn't.

So I think sometimes we can kinda wash our hands of these situations. I'm so glad I don't have to manage that person anymore. Do you wanna kind of share some some thoughts around that or what that that impact is or or how we can take that first step into, oh my god. I have to share this really difficult behavior type feedback with someone.

Yeah. Definitely. And I think the, it, the more fear you have as a manager, I think that's the position when you know that this really does have to be done.

Yeah.

And one of the best, experiences that I ever had was that I had a a colleague who worked in organizational development, and they role played the situation with me. So as I mentioned earlier, we we had an an agenda. We had a script. We, we role played. If I say this, what might their response be? How might I respond? Okay. If this person now ends up crying or they, storm out of the room, how might I respond? So it's about preparing yourself for that situation and knowing if you have 3 key things that you need to talk about, make sure that you come back to those key 3 Yeah. 3 key things. And if somebody does walk out of a room, are you going to bring them back to continue talking, or are you going to say, it's okay, but we will come back and talk about this tomorrow?

Yeah.

So I think that planning is particularly helpful so that you've got that guidance, you've got that support mechanism. And I think it's very, very, I think it's very important that you do have your line manager support to have these conversations, that you've spoken to your HR representative, you've spoken to OD, and you have this support. So I think having that conversation is really, really important. And when you have the conversation to have examples of the behavior Yeah. So going into a meeting and saying, the language you use is discriminatory.

Yeah.

Well, tell me when? What did I say? Who did I say it to? Well, that isn't discriminatory. That's just colloquialism. So I think you you have to have that ability to come back and be factual. Yeah. And I think in these kind of situation, the emotions can can run very high.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think being calm, being able to give factual examples, having your agenda, having your script, having the words that you want to come back to is really, really important.

Yeah.

And the more you do it as a line manager, I think the more experience you gather and you do grow every time you do it.

Yeah. I think you've raised some really valuable points there. The fact that you do it again and again, not only are you practicing, but then you're delivering it live and you're having that experience. And you learn from that and you get better at doing it. But, also, you know, there's this trite expression, which I actually quite like, but a lot of people are like, what? Feedback as a gift. And if you come back to what we were saying earlier about this person who has, maybe some I was gonna say behavioral issues, but it's not really behavioral issues. But there's something about the way they're showing up at work, which means that they're being excluded, that that they're not getting promotions, that they're not being recognized. And no one has ever taken the time to let them know what's going on because maybe their behavior is so bad that they they're afraid of retaliation or whatever that might be.

But to me, exactly what you said, this sparks a conversation, and this sparks an opportunity for that person to then have a choice about how they continue to behave. And that in itself, that's a gift to someone's career, isn't it? So that they can keep progressing, so that they can become more self aware, so that they know how they're showing up when it comes to workplace in particular. So

it's Also interesting what you were saying that, you have a client who has an example of being expected to give tough feedback to somebody, but the previous line manager didn't do that, but I was expecting it to go down the line.

And I've had that in my career as well where this one person was quite difficult to manage. No one wanted to manage them, and they didn't know which team to put them in. So they put the person in my team, and I was expected then to manage the behavior because the other two people who had previously managed this person did not want to manage them anymore.

And I think it's if you are a line manager and a leader within your team or your organization, I think it sets the cultural tone

Yeah.

That there is an expectation that we tackle difficult conversations. Yeah. And we know as leaders leaders, we have to go first. We are the ones that have to model the behavior we want to see. And as part of my, I have a a 9 pointed self awareness compass. And one of those, compass points is behavior, and it's about behavior modeling. And as leaders, we have to show that we have the courage to have these difficult conversations, that when there is behavior that is limiting to the team or the limiting to the individual, we do have the courage to have those conversations. We will model how to have them.

We will back other people in having them, and we won't shy away from them. So I think there are there are two things for leaders. There's both having a conversation for the individual and the impact that has on workplace relationships, but also about the culture of your organization and your team, about what it says about your tolerance of poor behavior or your tolerance of bullying, harassment, etcetera. So I think there are there are different reasons why giving feedback and challenging feedback is really important in an organization.

And, like, maybe just to kind of bring it all together, how do we create that culture of feedback? And, I mean, to me, it really needs to come from the top. But if it doesn't exist there, how do we bring about something like that for ourselves or within our own team? Or maybe for someone who's listening now, they're thinking, do you know what? We haven't been really great at giving feedback specific to those things. I want to create that culture because it is a positive move both for me in my own career, my own growth, and my own development, but also the people that I'm delivering that feedback to to help them to grow in self awareness and see the impact that their behavior is having on the organization and on the team.

I think if you're in an organization, leaders are in different places and in different levels in organizations. Whether you are a leader at the very strategic top of an organization and you want to operate in this way or whether you're a leader of a team and you don't see it around you, I think there is still the potential where you can start to make that shift. And I think when we're giving feedback, we can give positive feedback just as much as we can give challenging feedback.

Yeah. I think that that's another challenge in itself, isn't it, that we forget to give people positive feedback. We forget to be really specific and say, do you know what? That thing that you did last week, that presentation you delivered, it went down really well with the client. From my own perspective, here's what I thought you did particularly well, you know, and giving that positive feedback as well. I think oftentimes we forget to do that or we feel like we don't have the time, or it runs down on our or drops down our priority list because, you know, there's other stuff that has come in or whatever. Sorry. I'll let you continue.

Yeah. I think you're right that there is we can develop that culture of feedback, positive or negative. And I think that culture of feedback then has the potential to snowball. One thing that I've certainly done in in different roles is sort feedback. So from the basis of leaders go first, I have asked and sought for feedback. Again, it's Marshall Goldsmith that talks about, feedforward, and and Tasha Urich talks about it in her book too. This idea that if we are asking for feedback, there is nothing much that we can do about something that we've already done. However, if we ask for feedforward, what can I do differently? What can I do more of? What can I

do less of? And as the the leader in that team

or that organization, whether you lead a team of 3 people, you can still ask those people to give you some feedforward about how do you would you like me to communicate with you? Is this something that I do that you'd like me to do less of? What would I what could I do more of? And I think that builds that culture of of feedback and that openness and starts that dialogue. And you can start that dialogue very positively. Oh, you know, I love the fact that you did this. So, yeah, I I really like the way that you talk to us, and you're open and you're transparent. But sometimes maybe, could you do less of this or or could you do that differently? And I think it starts to open that conversation. So I think leaders going first, remembering to praise as well as having the difficult conversation, I think that starts to create the behavior within your small team, your bigger team, or your your organization as a whole.

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. So, again, coming back to this idea that leaders are role modeling that behavior, and they're seeking out feedback rather than overnight deciding, right, I'm gonna start giving everyone feedback. All of a sudden, they're gonna start calling people up on their behavior all of a sudden, but but rather seeking out feedback in quite simple day to day actions. Is there something that you want me to do more of, to do less of? How can I support you better? What do you need differently? And I think it's from the squiggly career podcast. They talk about even better if. So this is why you did really well.

And the next time, again, it's looking forward, looking at looking to feed forward. It would be even better if you did this isn't this. And it's not to say that what they did was bad because oftentimes that's all we hear when we're hearing feedback. We're like, these are all the things. Okay. And then they get scratched the minute someone says, and this is how you can improve, or this is what you did wrong or whatever it might be. And and also in relation to feedback, I think it's important to take the feedback that you want, and that will help you to progress your career. But, also, you don't have to take on take on board all of the feedback.

But, also, thinking when you're delivering feedback, it's the impact on the the outcomes of the organization rather than, you know, and and the person's ability to meet those outcomes of the organization or the relationships within the team rather than picking on something that's kind of trivial that's not really that important. Yeah. So I think that's really it's important to bear those things in mind as well.

Yeah. Definitely. And and as we say, pick your battles. And sometimes we, as leaders and managers, we we get fixated on things that are stylistic. Well, it might just be somebody's style. Yeah. But is that behavior damaging or is it limiting to somebody? Well, maybe not. It's just that they behave in a way that we wouldn't.

And I think it's about differentiating between those things Yeah. Versus what is something that we need to give feedback on because it has consequence, and it's important and it has Yeah. Yeah. It it has either huge benefits or it has huge negative, connotations. And I think we have to make those choices and possibly more so as the world of work is changing and how, our the people that we work with, how their, expectations and their needs of their line managers and organizations are changing.

Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. Is there anything else that you wanted to share, Nia, in relation to self awareness or feedback that we haven't touched on?

I think it would probably be to reiterate that doing one course or one three hundred and 60 degree review does not make you self aware. And I think it was Sheila Walsh that I talked to her in the podcast.

So disappointed.

Yeah. Many, many episodes ago, but we talked about this, that, I think if you're new to the concept of self awareness, and then you go on to a wonderful leadership course and you do an assessment and, you know, maybe it's a Myers Briggs or a 360 or or something else, And and you have this feedback and you think, oh, right. Okay. Those are all my blind spots. Tick, tick, tick. I've worked all the way through them. But I think it's going back to this idea of a journey. It's a constant journey.

Yeah. And you

Layers of an onion. Never ending layers of an onion. Yeah.

Absolutely. So I think it's about making sure that as a leader, as you move up within your, career ladder, that you don't forget that. Because something that did come out in my research very strongly was this idea of strategic level disconnect. And then as you become more senior within your organization, you're you become further away, from obviously, you become further away in terms of the structure of your organization, but you, become further away in terms of understanding what operationalization of your strategic level objectives are. And that strategic level disconnect was something that came out very strongly, and inclusive decision making was seen as a mitigator against that.

Okay.

And I think that really does fit with how we are seeing the world of work changing and what people are demanding of their of their organizations. They want more transparency. They want purpose. They want values. Yeah. And I think that helps to to create the culture of inclusive decision making. We have that transparency. We include people and engage people in the conversations about what are our challenges, what are our solutions.

Yeah.

So I think that that is looking at self awareness possibly from a slightly different angle. Mhmm. But I think that is if we are senior level organization leaders and we want to guard against strategic level disconnect, we have to have our self awareness antennae on all of the time.

Yeah. Brilliant. So for me, what I'm taking from that is the further away you are you're removed, you're kind of setting these objectives. This is what the organization wants to get. Maybe they're based on what we did last year, and we want to add 5%, or we want to do something slightly differently, whatever it might be, that trickles down through the organization, but they have no idea at that level how that's going to turn into the workload, and then the workload becomes unsustainable. And as it trickles down, no one thinks to challenge back up and say, or maybe the managers are kind of stuck in the middle. They're hearing the complaints from the people who are on the ground doing the work, and they're getting pressure from their leaders then to to make sure that the work gets done. So they're kind of having having it from both sides, I suppose.

But I love this idea of inclusive decision making and being really transparent about how things come about. And, you know, I I was just thinking that I've heard of organizations building their objectives from the ground up rather than from the top down. Yeah. And I haven't thought about that in a while, but that's something that could also be potential mitigating factor for this that it's that is tied in with the idea of inclusive decision making, that the decision getting gets made at this level because this is what we know we can produce given the team that we have and, you know, any potential turnover or whatever might be, any changes that are upcoming, all of those kinds of things. This is what we know we can deliver. Okay. How does that roll up then from from Yeah. The entire department, the, different countries, all of that? Brilliant.

Absolutely loved this conversation. Sorry. Go on.

As you were talking, I was thinking I I have a a family member who has recently left retail and that it was very evident in the organization that the that the directives would come from the strategic top. It would come down to the shop floor, literally to the shop floor. And and the number of times I had the conversation to say, well, is there no right to reply? Is there no way that you can feed this back up to the organization? And there was nothing. There was a a a line manager of a line manager who we would hope that they spoke to the senior person, but there was no obvious forums. There was no engagement. There was no right to reply. So it seemed that, structurally, the organization had set themselves up to create strategic level disconnect, and there was no evidence of inclusive decision making at any point.

Yeah.

And the turnover in that organization was phenomenal.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so How much is that costing them? You know, you have to ask yourself how much is that actually costing the business not to include people in those decisions, not to have a facility for feeding back about the the workload, and the conditions, whatever it might be. Yeah. Nia, I've absolutely loved this conversation. It's been so enlightening, and I think there's so many practical things that people can take away from our conversation as well. The question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Being in a position where we have good relationships, and that's not the same as always getting on with each other every minute of every day. It's knowing that we can disagree on a thing, but we don't disrespect the individual. And that is, for me, a good workplace where we can disagree on the thing, but we don't fall out with the individual, that we are still able to have respectful, positive conversations, and we can move forward towards a common goal.

Yeah. Constructive conflict, really. You know, being able to have that. I love that. And if people want to reach out to you, obviously, talk about your brilliant podcast, knowing self, knowing others. If they want to reach out and connect, what's the best place that they can do that?

My website has links to everything. So if you go to knowing self, knowing others dotco.ukorksko dotco.uk, then you will find links to email me or to my socials wherever you want to connect.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today. I loved this conversation. I don't think I'll ever get tired of of talking about things like this. You know, it being a journey, and you're always learning new stuff about yourself. So really appreciate your insights. There's always something new. Thank you so much.

Thank you. It's been really great.