Living with Childlessness

In this episode, MaryLayo talks to couple – Daniele & Tina Fiandaca, about their journey navigating through childlessness, and the impact this has had on their mental health. Daniele and Tina share about the hopes and dreams they had for a family, their experience of miscarriage, IVF treatment and grief, and their feelings about shame and societal pressure.

Concluding with a touch of spiritual wellness, MaryLayo offers a reflective tip from 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18, inviting listeners to join her next time for more insights on mental health and spiritual wellbeing. Remember to follow and share if you found the discussion helpful.

For dealing with mental health related matters, please seek specialist advice and support if needed.

#MaryLayoTalks #BeyondTheSmile #Childless #InfertilityJourney #MentalHealth #EmbracingChildlessness #ChildlessGrief #Miscarriage

Guest details:

Daniele Fiandaca is founder of Token Man Consulting, an inclusion and diversity consultancy which specialises in engaging senior leaders and men with I&D and inspiring them to become inclusive leaders and agents of change. Clients include BNP Paribas, Channel 4, Colt, Hitachi Vantara, Merlin Entertainments, Monster Energy, Nestlé and Ogilvy. He is also co-founder of Masculinity in the Workplace, the only I&D event that is designed specifically to engage men. He is also an executive coach, author and agent of change - he was recently named one of the Top 50 Trailblazers in Gender Equality in the UK.

Tina Fiandaca balances her career as a part-time People and Culture Director with her passion for volunteer work. She dedicates her time to counselling at Childline and assisting as a Wardrobe Assistant at Smart Works. She lives in London, and embraces the city's diverse offerings. When she's not working or volunteering, you can find her watching movies, singing with the Some Voices choir, and dancing at daytime discos.

External Resources:

• Tina's blog: a Journey of Infertility and Childlessness
• Daniele's LinkedIn post: Do You Have Children?
• 'Grief: A Study of Human Emotional Experience' lecture - Jody Day
• MaryLayo's spiritual wellbeing tip: 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 (NLT)

1

MaryLayo: Welcome to beyond the smile with me,

Mary Layo, a podcast that discusses mental

2

health and spiritual wellbeing.

3

If you like what you hear, please do remember

4

to follow and share.

5

But before we jump in, there may be episodes

6

that are particularly sensitive for some

listeners.

7

And if that applies, then I hope you will join

me whenever you feel ready and able.

8

Today's episode can be particularly triggering

for some as I'm talking to Danielle and Tina

9

Fiandaca about navigating through

childlessness and its impact on mental health.

10

Our discussion covers issues such as

miscarriage in IVF, as well as cultural and

11

societal pressures.

12

My guests also share on what's helped them

13

along the way.

14

Let's join in the conversation.

15

Tina and Danielle, I'm going to start asking

you first of all about how long you've been

16

married and what were your thoughts and your

dreams about having a family back then when

17

you got married?

18

Tina: We have been married eleven years.

19

Daniele: She had to chat with me before the

podcast.

20

MaryLayo: I noticed.

21

I noticed.

22

Daniele: How long was it?

23

Tina: But we've been together.

24

We've been together 21 years.

25

So, yeah, we were together quite a bit before

we got married.

26

And actually we started trying for a family

before we were married.

27

So shall I do my hopes, dreams and you can

talk about yours?

28

I mean, ever since I was a young child, my, I

always, always felt like my destiny, my

29

purpose.

30

You know, for as young as I can remember, I

31

always wanted to be a mother.

32

And, you know, I did my work experience in a

33

nursery.

34

You know, I wanted to be a nanny.

35

And they're the types of jobs that I was

thinking about when I was younger because I

36

just loved you.

37

MaryLayo: Loved children.

38

Tina: Loved children.

39

And so I just couldn't have, I just couldn't

40

imagine my life without children.

41

And it wasn't something that we instantly

42

talked about until we were quite far along in

our relationship.

43

But I think it got to the point for me.

44

And when we started trying, I think I was

45

about 39, so in my late thirties, and I just

knew that, you know, we just had to have

46

those, those conversations.

47

And so, you know, to be honest, the marriage

48

wasn't that important to me, but actually

family was.

49

MaryLayo: And what about you, Danielle?

Similar?

50

Daniele: No, not really.

51

To be honest.

52

I wanted kids because Tina wanted kids.

53

I'm actually, we'll go on to it, but, you

54

know, we have, we have had a very good life.

55

And so I think for me it was more what Tina

56

wanted and she wanted kids and so therefore I

wanted kids.

57

So I don't think there was a big, there was

never a big kind of searching or need.

58

It was more what she needed, we needed.

59

MaryLayo: Right. Makes sense.

60

Happy wife, happy life, as some say.

61

So then how long into your relationship, then?

Because I know you were together for a long

62

time beforehand, before you got married, and

you've been married for a long time, how long

63

did you then start to think that actually

starting that family, having a family, might

64

be an issue?

65

Tina: Well, I think.

66

I mean, I fell pregnant naturally to begin

67

with, and I think we must have been probably

trying for a year, maybe a year and a half.

68

So I know that I was kind of in my early

forties by that point, and sadly miscarried at

69

about ten weeks.

70

And I think at that point, I just felt that

71

getting ourselves tested to understand, you

know, kind of where we were would be the most

72

sensible option, just because of, you know, I

did feel a time pressure, you know, as, you

73

know, lots of women will, and just to

understand kind of where.

74

Where we were just seemed like the sensible

thing to do.

75

It's quite hard taking that step because you

don't know what you're gonna, you know, kind

76

of the answers you're gonna receive.

77

And I remember the fertility specialist, the

78

doctor, saying to us that if we were gonna,

you know, really stand any chance of becoming

79

pregnant again, you know, then we would need

to go down the IVF route, which is kind of

80

where we kind of started.

81

You know, when I felt ready, I think it was

82

probably like another, you know, eight months

after the miscarriage, we then, you know, in a

83

privileged position where we could try ivF.

84

MaryLayo: And can I ask if, you know, like,

when you started the IVF treatment, did you

85

actually share or, you know, did you open up

to others around you at that time?

86

Tina: Yes. Our immediate family and our very

good friends knew that we were going through

87

IVF the first time we went through it.

88

I didn't tell work.

89

I'd actually had been given a sabbatical.

90

I'd been in the business for ten years.

91

So I took.

92

I mean, it's a very, very short amount of

93

time.

94

I think I was given a month.

95

So I took that time off to do the first round

of IVF, but I wasn't, or we weren't public

96

with everyone about it.

97

It's more because there's so much expectation,

98

you know, on going through that process.

99

I just didn't want everyone to know.

100

MaryLayo: Yeah, of course.

101

Tina: More what to do with the questions that

people ask you.

102

So, you know, at that point, we didn't tell

everyone that we were going through it.

103

MaryLayo: So you've, like, you've already

mentioned about the expectations of others.

104

Have you, like, what kind of pressures did you

have at that point or up until that point from

105

others around, even if it's friendship groups

or families?

106

Did you feel the pressure and was there

pressure on you, would you say?

107

Tina: I mean, there is a. There is pressure

and not necessarily put on us by other people

108

on purpose, but people do.

109

Of course, the natural thing to ask is how

110

you're doing.

111

And at the time, we had other things that were

112

kind of going on in our lives that were quite

difficult.

113

So there was a lot that was happening to us

that kind of did actually sort of take over

114

the process.

115

But I think, yeah, it's definitely the

116

questions, you know, the drugs that you take

and how that makes you feel.

117

And, yeah, I mean, it can be a difficult

process to go through, and then the added

118

pressure of, you know, what is going to be the

end result.

119

It's just a really stressful process to go

through.

120

Daniele: I think the pressure is more

societal, I would say.

121

I don't think we've necessarily had anyone.

122

You see the movies where people could go, oh,

123

when you're having next.

124

I mean, I never felt that kind of pressure

125

from those around me, but I think it's just

societal.

126

And I think to a certain extent, when I said

that thing about, you know, I think we have

127

to.

128

We do have to live in a world where it isn't a

129

default to have kids.

130

So I, you know, I totally appreciate, you

131

know, for Tina, it was so important, but for

me, it was.

132

I also.

133

I also understood that, you know, that not

134

having kids has to be an option as well,

because at the moment, it does feel like the

135

pressure I see on Tina was also this societal

pressure that said, as a woman, you need to

136

become a mother, and that's really hard.

137

MaryLayo: Yeah. And it's interesting that you

mentioned about the society pressure or

138

societal pressure, and the reason why I

mentioned about even the pressures around you,

139

because even in my culture, and I don't know

if it's a cultural thing, but I come from a

140

nigerian background and it is normal or it's

usual for people to ask, as soon as you've got

141

married, so when's the kids?

You know, and then when you've even had a

142

child, when's the next one?

So there is a strong expectation from, could

143

be family, extended family, or the culture

that people are from to even, like, bend

144

towards that expectation and really feel it,

as well as the societal pressure, like you

145

mentioned.

146

Tina: Yeah, I think it's 100% right and I

suppose when you're going through that

147

process, it's stressful anyway, without other.

148

Are the people putting pressure on and the

149

expectation and stigma and shame that comes

from even having an assisted pregnancy or IVF

150

or miscarriage and the stigma and shame of not

having children.

151

I mean, that is what affected me for so long,

you know, for many years.

152

And I, you know, and so, yes, I mean,

massively, I think you are 100% right.

153

And there's lots of kind of cultures that

expect that, and, you know, yeah, there's

154

stigma and shame around.

155

Around it.

156

MaryLayo: And, Tina, you mentioned about even

the stress of going through ivF, the

157

treatment.

158

So did either of you.

159

Did you know about.

160

Did you know that?

161

I don't know.

162

Like, I myself know it's stressful, you know,

163

going through IVF.

164

I know, you know, because of what I hear.

165

So, I guess, did you almost, like, expect it?

And if so, to what extent were you able to

166

prepare mentally or did anything help you to

prepare mentally?

167

Tina: I mean, I just took it day by day.

168

Like, I literally kind of just couldn't think

169

too far into the future, although you do.

170

And so I think, in a way, you know, because of

171

other things that were kind of going on, I

think we just sort of almost disconnected from

172

the process.

173

It was just this sort of process that we were

174

going through back then.

175

You know, it didn't even occur to me to, you

176

know, seek out counselling or help to kind of

go through that process.

177

It just wasn't even on our radar to do that.

178

Daniele: I think going back to the point team,

not many people talk about doing IVF.

179

I don't think a lot of people do know just the

stress that goes through.

180

And then I think when people.

181

I think when people are successful, they're so

182

relieved, they just focus on the child.

183

When people aren't successful, I don't really

184

want to talk about the process.

185

MaryLayo: Sure. Sure.

186

Daniele: I think the reality is it's not

talked about enough.

187

I think a lot of people go into it not really

understanding just how hard it can be.

188

And no one's got.

189

No one can tell you, no one can give you a

190

definite percentage.

191

That's really hard.

192

It's a case by case basis.

193

But there is a, you know, once we've gone

194

through it enough times, the team had felt it,

we did make a decision not to keep on going

195

because actually, the trauma and the stress

related with it just wasn't worth it for the

196

chance of success.

197

And I think a lot of people do go into it.

198

I mean, also the financial burden is

significant.

199

As Ed Tina said, we're privileged, but I dont

think we spent as much as someone told me they

200

spent the other day, because I was like, wow.

201

The amount of money that some people have to

202

invest because of their own circumstances is

mind blowing.

203

Its a significant investment and those that.

204

Tina: Can invest it is just incredibly hard if

you're waiting for IVF as well to even kind of

205

get going on that journey.

206

It's just so difficult.

207

And I think, as you say, people just don't

talk about it.

208

Or of course you go into the process and in

some respects you have to think positively and

209

you have to think, I'm going through this to

have a baby at the end.

210

But that's not the reality for some people.

211

And it's incredibly difficult for those going

212

through IVF to see people like me that did go

through it and sadly didn't have a child at

213

the end of it.

214

That is a really difficult thing to manage.

215

MaryLayo: Sure. Yeah. You know, you made a

really good point as well, Danielle, because I

216

think it was even just yesterday.

217

If it wasn't yesterday, then it was the day

218

before when I read, and I'm not going to name

the celebrity, they basically shared how

219

they'd had quite a few rounds of IVF that were

unsuccessful, then they then happened to have

220

a child naturally.

221

And you wouldn't, well, I, you would never

222

have known.

223

And it's only, and it makes you wonder, would

224

they have shared that if they didn't have a

child?

225

Daniele: You know, it was a Kardashian, wasn't

it?

226

MaryLayo: One of the Kardashians.

227

Daniele: It was.

228

I think they had five rounds.

229

Five rounds, actually.

230

MaryLayo: Yeah, exactly.

231

Daniele: You're right.

232

100% right.

233

They wouldn't have talked.

234

They wouldn't have talked about it.

235

MaryLayo: Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's something

that people generally, and I can understand

236

why, but it's not talked openly enough.

237

And number one, it's a difficult topic to talk

238

about and therefore that doesn't help.

239

But it's so sensitive, so personal, so raw

240

that people don't talk about it.

241

And the few times it is shared, I guess it's

242

because it's a closed topic.

243

So, for example, I might know of in my close

244

circle someone who's going through it because

they've shared with me, but it's not going to

245

be public.

246

Not that it should be public knowledge, but

247

you know what I mean.

248

It's not something that is openly talked

249

about.

250

And I guess if it is because there's a

251

successful outcome at the end of it, then

people would tend to share.

252

They're more likely to.

253

Daniele: I think they're more likely, but I

don't think everyone does.

254

And it's not one of those natural things you

say, oh, it's a successful IVF.

255

I mean, obviously, you know, I would say that

I've kind of worked it out with a lot of

256

people because they have twins.

257

I mean, you know, people have twins these

258

days.

259

You know, there's a high likelihood that's

260

IVF, but, yeah, I'm not sure that everyone

does, even then does share it.

261

I mean.

262

MaryLayo: No, no, you're right.

263

You're right, baby.

264

Yeah, yeah.

265

Daniele: I mean, why would that.

266

I mean, to say, why would they, you know, you

267

think it's like, it's just, it's.

268

Yeah, I mean, it's just like, you know, it's

269

kind of, you know, a child shouldn't be

defined whether they were IVF or not.

270

So to a certain extent, I can understand why

you wouldn't necessarily, necessarily share

271

it.

272

MaryLayo: So then how.

273

How did, like, how did not having children

274

affect your relationship or even other

relationships?

275

So, like, Tina, for example, you mentioned

that those who, for example, those who go

276

through IVF, and they, you know, they, they

success when having a child.

277

It, it can be awkward, um, for those who

haven't.

278

And then there's that.

279

Daniele: It's.

280

MaryLayo: Yeah, it's, it's, it's difficult to

manage, like you said.

281

So how.

282

How did, how did not having children affect

283

your relationship as, and other relationships

around you?

284

Tina: Um, I mean, I can talk about, you know,

particularly with my friends who became

285

pregnant.

286

You know, it's just such a weird feeling

287

because you feel happy for them.

288

I don't think, you know, I've had any friends

289

that sort of found it really easy to get

pregnant, but, you know, I felt happy for

290

them, but there is so much hurt there from me,

and, you know, it never.

291

I mean, now, actually, when.

292

When I. And I have friends who, you know,

293

still fall pregnant, I'm honestly happy for

them, and it doesn't affect me in the same way

294

that it did, but I think, you know, it has to

taken me a long time to be able to get to

295

that, to get to that place and some work.

296

But, you know, I remember when my friends

297

would tell me they were pregnant.

298

It's like a kick in the gut punch that it just

299

physically, physically hurts.

300

And, you know, in some respects, it can change

301

friendships, but, you know, like any

relationship, you work at them.

302

What I do wish that I'd done is actually

talked to my friends about how I was feeling

303

and, you know, the advice that I would give

for friends who are pregnant and have friends

304

who are, you know, trying to conceive is just

to acknowledge that, you know, it's hard for

305

them to, um, just that acknowledgement rather

than pretending, you know, things are all good

306

and rosy and ignoring the fact.

307

I just wish that we talked about it more.

308

MaryLayo: Sure. Sure. I guess.

309

Is it that elephant in the room kind of.

310

Tina: Yeah.

311

MaryLayo: Scenario?

Yeah, kind of.

312

Daniele: It was a bit about society because

you reached out to me because I wrote that

313

question on LinkedIn.

314

Right.

315

MaryLayo: Yeah.

316

Daniele: Which is that dreaded question, which

is, do you have children?

317

You know, which is a very triggering.

318

I mean, it's not, you know, I don't think it's

319

massively triggering for me, but it's.

320

I know it's triggering for Tina.

321

So, you know, just hearing that question does

just, you know, I do feel it and I go and I

322

just want.

323

And I just think, why have we created society

324

where we think that's an okay question?

Yeah.

325

And we think that that's the foot.

326

And it's always, it tends to be couples in the

327

first place.

328

And I've also got to be, you know, I have used

329

the question, but more because I want to

connect with people that haven't had children.

330

Right.

331

I actually, often, I actually want them to say

332

the answer is no. So I can straight away say,

I feel with you, we don't have kids either.

333

So, you know, but, you know, I always have to

be careful because I am triggering them by

334

asking that same question.

335

But I'm slightly using it for a different

336

reason and I sit with it.

337

So I've had to, even throughout this process,

338

I had to think about when I use it, how I use

it, but I'm not, definitely not using it.

339

You know, I'm using it because, you know, you

know.

340

Tina laughs because, you know, she's an

introvert and I'm an extrovert.

341

And, you know, I think the one thing I would

say is, you know, when, when you're, when your

342

friends have kids, you kind of lose some of

them.

343

You know, it's kind of like, I'll see you in

18 years, you know, and again, I'd rather

344

focus on the people that I think have done a

wonderful job with us.

345

So I think, you know, let me talk about who,

you know, if you know, someone that, that has

346

gone through IVF and hasn't been successful

is, you know, one is being considerate,

347

understanding them, but also making them part

of your child's.

348

Life, you know, that's what I would say that

we actually have.

349

And we do talk about it, you know, usually if

someone says to us, do you have kids?

350

I'll say, we have a, we have a life full of

children, which we do, you know, I'm

351

godfather.

352

I can't even remember godfather to at least

353

two, three.

354

But also, you know, we, we've.

355

And it's really interesting if we look at the

nigerian culture, you know, you've got, within

356

your culture, you've got, you know, and I was,

you know, one of my friends, he's nigerian,

357

he'll call me his uncle, you know.

358

But what's interesting now, I now start to see

359

that with our friends that they won't call me.

360

I'm not their godfather.

361

I'm not their friend.

362

I'm their, I'm their kid's uncle.

363

Doesn't matter whether maybe godfather or

nothing.

364

So all of a sudden, that kind of being part of

that wider family.

365

So for me, we've gone away for Easter with the

same group of people, two of my best friends,

366

and we've gone with their family.

367

And in all honesty, they feel like our family.

368

For me, yes, they might be in blood relation,

but they've really embraced us and that allows

369

us to spend time with those kids, be important

to those kids.

370

And, you know, that, that gives you that, you

know, it's not quite the same sense of

371

purpose, but it does give you an element of

purpose, you know, in order to, you know, be

372

there as a support function for other

children.

373

Tina: I think.

374

I think the thing that I would add to that is

375

that, you know, when our friends included us

in their kids lives, that's what we wanted.

376

There are people within the childless

community that will just find it too difficult

377

to do that.

378

So, you know, it should be led by the person

379

and not, you know, allowing that space for

them to come to you.

380

But just don't stop inviting them to things,

which is what, you know, can happen is like,

381

oh, well, actually they don't have kids.

382

They're not going to want to come to our kids

383

birthday party.

384

Well, actually they might, but they might not.

385

It's their choice.

386

Just keep inviting them.

387

MaryLayo: You know, Daniella, you mentioned

about, and this was, this came through in your

388

LinkedIn post about not.

389

Or being thoughtful.

390

When you ask someone, do you have kids?

Because of it perhaps being triggering.

391

So what would you say then?

Like, how would people who are interested in

392

finding out, because it is a natural question

to ask, especially if someone's of a certain

393

age or if they're a couple, what would you say

they should?

394

Or is it the delivery, how they say it?

What would you ask that question?

395

Daniele: I hate to say I'm going to say

something really controversial, but it's often

396

kids, the only people that kids are

interesting to those around them.

397

So I actually think using kids as your first

frame of reference is quite lazy.

398

Anyway, I would actually just make it more,

what's your passions in life?

399

Or what did you get up to last weekend?

Because what you do is you end up finding, you

400

know, and it's really tough.

401

Listen, it's really tough for parents.

402

You know, I'm sitting here going, you know,

you lose a friend for 18 years, but they also

403

lose you for 18 years.

404

You know, there's that element.

405

I did a panel recently on male friendship and

how hard it is for fathers, specifically in

406

terms of staying connected with their friends.

407

So, you know, I think the reality is being a

408

parent is really hard.

409

And so I think if you, you said, you know,

410

what do you do for fun?

What are your passions?

411

What did you do last weekend?

What are you doing?

412

What are you doing coming out on holiday?

Kids will naturally come into the

413

conversation, then they can talk about their

lives, what their lives are like.

414

And so all of a sudden they can bring that in

in a way that's actually, I'm generally

415

interested what they want to do.

416

And so when they ask us that question and kids

417

doesn't come up with the answer, we don't have

to, you know, even think about whether we've

418

got kids or not.

419

So I think for me, it's just understanding,

420

just make asking more open, more considerate,

more, I'm going to say more interesting

421

questions.

422

Do you have kids?

423

Is not a very interesting question.

424

MaryLayo: Sure. It kind of reminds me of, oh,

gosh, like, I'm seeing a lot of synergies here

425

with, and I know it's not exactly the same.

426

Just, I guess in terms of being a single

427

person and not mean married and someone who

is, let's just say married and got, you know,

428

and got kids, you know, there's a lot of, you

know, like in terms of your friendship groups,

429

they kind of change to your network, being

other single, you know, people and, you know,

430

that kind of stuff.

431

So I'm seeing, I am seeing the, I am seeing

432

the synergies here.

433

And just in terms of feeling that there is a

434

difference, you know, between the two camps,

if I can call it that, you know, there's a

435

massive difference.

436

Daniele: I mean, our new friends don't tend to

have kids.

437

I mean, that's the reality.

438

And you do gravitate towards people that don't

439

have kids.

440

I mean, we've had a situation not to know what

441

it is, but we meet people that don't have kids

in six months, they seem to get pregnant, and

442

it's kind of like, okay, we've lost those,

we've lost those friends again.

443

And the reality is we do, I mean, it's too new

a relationship to expect us to be important to

444

them when they have kids.

445

So, you know, I think it is a reality.

446

It's why we've, you know, a lot of our new

friends.

447

And again, we do know that, you know, gay men

can have kids, but a lot of the gay men that

448

we know don't.

449

So, you know, to a certain extent, I think

450

what's been nice is it has opened up new, new

types of relationships, new types of people in

451

our lives.

452

But let's not, you know, let's, you know, as I

453

said, a lot of my close friends are still in

our lives.

454

They're just in our lives less or differently.

455

MaryLayo: Yeah, sure.

456

Sure. So, like, what kind of, like, did you

457

get any.

458

So, like, Tina, you mentioned how you didn't,

459

it didn't even cross your mind.

460

It wasn't on your radar to get counselling.

461

So what kind of help or support did you both

or individually get along the way or what have

462

you found to be helpful and supportive to you?

463

Tina: So I, as part of the fertility clinic

that we did our first round of IVF with, when

464

I miscarried, you could have one free

counselling session.

465

And it just totally put me off because they

took me into a room that had all of the photos

466

of the babies that had been born in the clinic

in the room, which you can imagine was

467

incredibly triggering for me.

468

So that was my first experience, experience of

469

counselling.

470

So I never, I didn't, I didn't go, I didn't go

471

back to it.

472

I think, in all honesty, we kind of went

473

through that whole process, kind of dealing

with it in our own way and just kind of

474

getting on with it, disassociating from it to

a certain extent.

475

And it wasn't until I started a foundation in

psychotherapy and counselling, and that's the

476

one thing that I focused on.

477

And I wrote an essay basically on

478

childlessness.

479

And actually, it really helped, really helped

480

me kind of heal through that, through that

process.

481

I think the other thing that I started to do,

mainly when I knew that we weren't going to

482

continue that we'd kind of made the decision

that, right, this is it now.

483

I did start to look into some of the networks

that are out there, of which the one in

484

particular that I looked and became a member

of was Gateway Women, started by Jodie Day,

485

who is.

486

She's pretty much the founder of the childless

487

movement for many years.

488

And that really helped.

489

And what that helped me understand was how

powerful being seen is, because I felt what I

490

was going through.

491

What we were going through was so invisible

492

because we don't talk about it.

493

That when I entered a network where I was

494

reading all of these different experiences

where I could see myself in them, it made me

495

feel less alone.

496

And, you know, never, ever underestimate the

497

power of being seen.

498

And that's why I chose to, once I'd written my

499

essay, was actually to write a blog post about

my experience, so that in one way, it was

500

being seen again.

501

People could understand the experience that

502

we'd been through.

503

Daniele: And if you've got show notes, we

should definitely send you Tina's blog post.

504

MaryLayo: I was just making a note to jot that

down.

505

Yeah.

506

Daniele: So it's a beautiful story, and I

think.

507

I think the reality is, you know, we've also,

because of.

508

I'm sure I can share this with Tina, going

through the menopause and elements around that

509

we've been doing couple of couples

counselling, and I think it's also got us to

510

talk about it a bit more.

511

But even before this session, Tina wants to go

512

through the questions between us first and

talk about stuff.

513

But to be honest with you, I not.

514

I don't know where I am on my grief journey

515

because I've never really grieved.

516

So, uh, but, you know, I've had quite a few

517

people telling me I probably do need to go to

therapy.

518

Uh, but I watched a film, what was it, two

months ago, called?

519

Nowhere special.

520

Nowhere special.

521

And it even just.

522

It's getting me now.

523

Uh, and it was with all fathers, and it was

me, because I do a lot of work within, uh, the

524

masculinity and the male space.

525

And it literally broke me.

526

I can't just.

527

How I can tell.

528

MaryLayo: I.

529

Daniele: And so I don't know whether.

530

How much of that was losing my brother and he

531

was the guy.

532

It's just such a hard story.

533

Oh, you can tell emotion.

534

It's about guys dying of brain tumour.

535

My brother died of a brain tumour who has to

find someone to adopt his son.

536

MaryLayo: Right.

537

Daniele: It's just.

538

It is such a wonderful.

539

You know, it's one of those really weird films

that, you know, it's just so you can tell the

540

impact on me and quite a lot of the other men

there.

541

Actually, it was actually done by a good

friend of us called Patrick, part of the

542

mandem, which is stuck by Francis Augusta.

543

And I think for me, just seeing, for me, the

544

power of just seeing those men together,

watching a film like that, talking about it

545

and talking about being fathers, for me, it

was beautiful.

546

But at the same time, I probably do need to do

a bit more therapy myself and explore it.

547

You know, that's.

548

That's the reality.

549

This stuff stays with you, right?

550

MaryLayo: Yeah, yeah.

551

I mean, like, it's.

552

It's interesting, but I can.

553

I do resonate with what you're saying just

554

because, like, on it, I guess on a day to day,

on a day to day level, I tend to think I'm

555

okay.

556

But then when there's certain topics that

557

comes up, you know, especially when it comes

to bereavement, I realise, oh, my gosh, I'm

558

not okay, you know, I'm not altogether on

this, you know, as I. As I thought.

559

So you're right in terms of it stays with you,

but it's just suppressed and Sony every now

560

and again, it might come out of the box, you

know, if you let it, unless you intentionally

561

go out, you know, and for example, to explore

through counselling, etcetera.

562

Yeah, it's something that I've noticed even

for myself.

563

Sorry, what are you going to say, Tina?

564

Tina: Yeah, what I was going to just add to

that is that the thing about childless grief

565

is that it's not something that you can see.

566

It's not like it's a different.

567

It's a different grief to maybe one of your

relations dying, because people will know that

568

person.

569

But when you're grieving something that you

570

wanted but haven't managed to have in your

life, it's a really difficult grief to

571

understand.

572

And going back to Jodi day again, she does it.

573

You can find it on YouTube, a talk about

disenfranchised grief and how society kind of

574

looks at disenfranchised grief.

575

And again, it was like, when I listened to it,

576

I was like, wow, you know, I can really see

my.

577

Myself in this because it's something that,

you know, you're just grieving something that

578

you've never had and never will have.

579

So, yeah, it can be complicated, but I do.

580

Daniele: You say you never had, but, you know,

I think the reality, there is a difference in

581

that.

582

You know, for Tina, it was physical, you know.

583

You know, the grief is different, I think, for

me, you know.

584

You know, the bit we.

585

So I think I can't which one it was.

586

But when you had an atopic pregnancy, which

she had to have removed.

587

And do you know what?

In all of this, the thing that I remember the

588

most is sitting there in Paddington and

waiting.

589

Why haven't I had a call?

Why haven't I had a call and going?

590

And the doctor asked me to sit down.

591

That would.

592

That's, you know, that's what I remember is

the doctor sitting me down and saying, tina's

593

lost a lot of blood, but we've managed to save

her.

594

You know, that's.

595

So for me, actually, in the whole process,

596

Tina's here.

597

So there's an element of me going, do you know

598

what?

That was the bit that, for me, was the most

599

horrendous, because it's not.

600

You know, and, you know, I've always.

601

And it's been hard for Tina in my.

602

I'd never.

603

You know, I've had a very, very.

604

Because I could.

605

It's not.

606

That's my privilege.

607

It's not in my body.

608

Until anything existed, it didn't exist in my

609

head, whereas for Tina, it was very different.

610

And so that's something we've had to both be

611

understanding for each other because we've had

very different experiences.

612

MaryLayo: And, you know, what can I come back

to almost like, the role of gender when it

613

comes to someone who may be affected when it

comes to childlessness?

614

Because there is that.

615

Let me call it perception, but I think it's a

616

general understanding that women are far more

impacted than men or there's that prejudice

617

around gender, basically.

618

So I guess, in particular to you, Danielle,

619

just your thoughts in terms of, like, how.

620

Daniele: I think there are lots of men that

grew up thinking that their purpose in life

621

was to have a child.

622

MaryLayo: Right?

623

Daniele: And I. And I wouldn't.

624

And I wouldn't.

625

I wouldn't never want to minimise the impact

on them of that.

626

So, yes, there is a physical element, but

where you believe your purpose is to be a

627

parenthood, I don't think it matters what

gender you are.

628

The impact is the same.

629

And if anything, it's more likely because we

630

know that the father one won't necessarily

talk about it, but also, if they did talk

631

about it, probably wouldn't be believed in the

same sense.

632

Exactly to your point.

633

But I definitely know of situations where

634

fathers have.

635

Just for them, they've had just as much.

636

And I don't know, but I'm guessing, you know,

the people that do, you know, I don't know how

637

many fathers are on the childlessness

community but I'm guessing there's not that

638

many.

639

And if they are, they fill in the out group

640

and so it's much harder for them.

641

Tina: There are groups now for men.

642

I think that, you know, men are beginning to

643

have a voice, which is only a positive thing

because again, it's that, you know, being seen

644

in different experiences, it can make you feel

less alone in it.

645

And, yeah, I mean, you know, the gender, I

think in one respect for me, you know,

646

understanding where Danieli was in the process

actually took some pressure off to a certain

647

extent.

648

I kind of knew that we would be, our

649

relationship, it would be okay.

650

Whatever happened, that's not the case for

651

everyone.

652

And I think we have to recognise that and I

653

think we also have to look at the spectrum of

the gender spectrum.

654

Now for people who are non binary or trans

going through these experiences, it can be,

655

you know, really difficult because, you know,

it's not recognised within, within their

656

community.

657

So I think, you know, it's difficult for

658

anyone going through who wanted a child at the

end of the process.

659

MaryLayo: And like, even the very fact that

you're here and you're talking about what

660

we've all, we've been saying all throughout,

that it's not talked about, it's not talked

661

about openly or certainly not enough.

662

How did you actually get to this point?

663

I don't know if we'd started recording, Tina,

but you kind of said, I think you said early

664

on about how you, you know, it's still, you

know, you're still getting there, it's still a

665

journey.

666

So, but you've, you've obviously got to a

667

certain point enough to share even about your

own experience and that helped that, that's a,

668

let me just call it progress.

669

That tells me something about where you're at

670

in that journey.

671

So how did you, how did you get to this point

672

of being maybe more able to talk about it, for

example?

673

And I would say that to you as well, Danielle,

the fact that you put a post out on LinkedIn,

674

that got my attention and I don't see that

kind of sharing in an open space often.

675

So how, how did you get to that point where

you thought, you know what, I'm going to say

676

this, and was there a turning point?

Was there a milestone individually or as a

677

couple that made you think, yeah, you're at

that place where you are more able to talk

678

openly?

679

Tina: I think for me, and this is something

else that is nothing talked about.

680

In fact, I haven't actually heard it talked

about ever.

681

We'd gone through two rounds of IVF and we had

some frozen embryos.

682

I think we had, like, four frozen embryos,

which meant that obviously we could have

683

probably another one or two or three attempts,

you know, past that.

684

And I think because of the traumatic

experience that I'd gone through.

685

And then we kind of took some time and I just

said, look, I just want a break.

686

I can't go into it, like, another six months

down the line.

687

I just need a break.

688

And I think by this point, I was probably, I

689

don't know, 45, you know, maybe 46.

690

But we kept our embryos frozen because even

691

though in my heart, I knew I couldn't do

another round every year.

692

We used to get a letter from the fertility

clinic and you paid for the storage.

693

What would you like to do with your embryos?

Would you like to keep them in storage?

694

Would you like to destroy them?

Would you like to put them into research?

695

And we kept them on storage on ice for

probably another five years, because that was

696

another grieving process all over again.

697

To actually tick a box.

698

To say, for me now, this is where I'm going to

get emotional that, you know, that's us.

699

That's us.

700

Darn.

701

And I'm destroying or putting our embryos into

research was just such a hard decision.

702

So I just didn't want to go through that

grieving process again.

703

But then what did help me?

And I couldn't have, you know, I said.

704

I said to Danieli, I'm ready, but couldn't

tick the box.

705

And so, you know, he ticked the box and he

just quietly posted the letter because I just

706

couldn't physically.

707

I couldn't physically do it.

708

And I think it was at that point then, you

know, we started to reorganise our lives.

709

We. We took an amazing sabbatical and we

travelled South America four months.

710

For four months.

711

Daniele: It was amazing.

712

Tina: And I always remember my boss saying to

me, the wonderful Dale, this is your

713

experience.

714

You know, some people experience motherhood.

715

You're going to experience something new in

your travels.

716

And that was just such a amazing thing to

hear.

717

It was just another life experience that we

were going to experience together.

718

And then obviously, the work passed.

719

Then was writing the essay, the blog post, our

720

own therapy.

721

I became a volunteer for childline so that I

722

still had kind of children in my life that I

knew that, you know, I was.

723

Well, yeah, I would hope making a difference.

724

So all of those things for me personally, but

725

that has been over a period of, you know,

quite.

726

Quite a few years.

727

Daniele: And I think.

728

I think, you know, so I've.

729

Because of the work that I do in inclusion

equity and diversity, you know, I do a lot of

730

inclusive leadership training.

731

So, you know, the reality was, if anyone

732

follows me on LinkedIn, they know I'm

extremely vulnerable.

733

But this was probably the last big

vulnerability because I knew this was, this

734

was, this wasn't.

735

This one wasn't about me, this one was about

736

us.

737

So I had to show all the other vulnerability

738

first, I think, before Tina just went and she

wrote, and, you know, it's my pknortheminal.

739

It goes out under my name.

740

But to be honest, Tina wrote most of it

741

because, you know, I wrote it and, you know,

we wrote it together.

742

So I think, for me, that's really important.

743

I think.

744

Yeah, listen, you know, you know, it's really

weird because on the other side, I think it

745

has given, you know, I do think there's a

responsibility on us to do stuff, make change.

746

It's why I do what I do.

747

But also, I think the, you know, the best

748

compliment I did get from someone, I think

they meant it.

749

You know, it could have.

750

I think they said, it's Tina.

751

They probably wouldn't.

752

She wouldn't have felt so nice, but to me it

753

was, you know, they said, you're the best

advert for people that don't have kids, you

754

know, and I think you need adverts for people

that don't have kids because I don't think.

755

I don't think, you know, I think part of the

challenge that, you know, Tina feels the way

756

she did is because of the pressures, you know,

that society puts on.

757

And so for me, anything that takes that

pressure off that actually says, you know

758

what, there is another way to be very, very

happy and not have kids.

759

I think that's also important.

760

MaryLayo: So you've kind of just talked about

or mentioned about, you know, things that

761

could be done to take that, let's call it that

shame, that secrecy, you know, and to kind of,

762

like, dispel that.

763

So what more could do, you think could be

764

done?

So, for example, we know that there are, well,

765

in some workplaces, depending on geographical

location, there are things like parental

766

bereavement leave or those kind of things.

767

What else, as society could be done so that

768

you are, as a couple are not the ad, but it's

more widespread, if that makes sense, more

769

widespread.

770

I don't know, actions, initiatives, things

771

that could be done so it's not such a big

deal.

772

Tina: I think.

773

I mean, I think that there is for, you know,

774

hundreds of years the way that women,

particularly without children, are portrayed

775

in the media, in films, and they're always the

psychotic person or the Disney witch or

776

demonised, almost demonised by society.

777

The matriarchal witches that were back

778

hundreds of years ago, they were demonised.

779

And I think to the point that Danieli was

780

making about, you know, these positive role

models that you have, and it's not just

781

childless, you know, we do have people

actually that are child free and they choose

782

to be child free.

783

I mean, you know, we're childless, not by

784

choice, but you have people that are child

free, you know, until we see those positive

785

role models in the media and in films.

786

And I don't think that society will change.

787

You know, we live in a pronatalist society.

788

Until that changes, I'm not sure how.

789

Daniele: Just look at the Barbie movie.

790

Everyone talks about how feminist it was and

791

what a wonderful movie, and it ends with her

going to the gynaecologist.

792

You're like, going, okay, what's that say?

What's that saying in terms of people's

793

purpose?

I think for me, we've just got to look at the

794

world is moving.

795

So I run so called author anonymous Emma

796

Gannons, and she wrote a book called Olive.

797

You know, Emma does talk about the pressure

798

that, you know, as someone that has chosen not

to have children, the pressure that she gets

799

put the whole time.

800

So I think having more role models of people

801

speaking openly about that choice and what we

are seeing is we're seeing a whole generation

802

coming through who, because of the climate,

are making that decision.

803

So I think there will be a shift, but I think

exactly what Tina said.

804

We have to be, we have to be mind, because the

workplace is a really difficult one, I'll be

805

honest, because, you know, I remember when I

used to leave and I called, you know, I've

806

always had pet projects and I always call them

my baby.

807

You know, I'd leave for work, I leave early,

like, I left at 530, and people would judge me

808

for it, but then a parent goes to leave at 530

and then it's like, oh, they're going to see

809

their kids.

810

But the reality is I'm not going to sit here

811

and go, single people need some more support

at work because work is so, so the barriers

812

for primary caregivers and work is so high.

813

I mean, it's, you know, people who are primary

814

caregivers, it's so hard for them in the

workplace, I don't want, you know, for.

815

For me, the focus still needs to be on

supporting them because it is so hard to have

816

a child and be that primary caregiver.

817

Tina: But I think there is an element of

respecting people's time.

818

My time is no less valuable than someone who

has children.

819

I have things that I like to do that are

important to me.

820

It doesn't mean that I should compromise the

time, my time and feel lesser than.

821

Because I don't have kids.

822

MaryLayo: Of course. Yeah. So I was going to

ask about advice that you would give to

823

people, let's just say friends, family, who

are trying to support those who wants to have

824

children but doesn't have children.

825

So, for example, there's some people that are

826

less skilled, you know, when it comes to

giving support.

827

And there are, you know, and there are people

that want to help or support in whatever way

828

they can, but they don't know how to, you

know, and sometimes when you don't know how

829

to, you say nothing.

830

And sometimes saying nothing creates that

831

elephant in the room.

832

So what kind of advice would you give to

833

people, whether they're a friend or a family

member or a colleague who are trying to

834

support someone, but they don't really know

how to, or they are supporting in the way that

835

they think they should be supporting, but they

don't know if they are supporting effectively.

836

What kind of advice would you give to anyone

who's listening?

837

But it's in that position.

838

Daniele: I would give the same advice I give

for any other situation.

839

I'm going to give you an example.

840

I heard of a. In the work that I do, I heard

841

of an example of someone was experiencing

Ramadan and would come out and everyone gone,

842

lunch.

843

No one was at their desk having lunch like

844

they normally do because they decided that

actually the best thing to do was not to eat

845

in front of them.

846

And he just.

847

And he just felt completely kind of left out

and say, for me, advice is really simple.

848

Everyone needs support.

849

Ask them what support they need.

850

MaryLayo: Sure. I feel good to talk.

851

Daniele: Just say, I know you're going through

suffer.

852

It must be really hard.

853

I really feel with you, what support can I

854

give you?

And sometimes, and sometimes people might be,

855

oh, I don't.

856

I'm fine.

857

I don't need support.

858

And that's when you might want to go dig a bit

859

deeper, work out what they're actually going

through, and sometimes just make suggestions.

860

So would it be helpful if.

861

So, that kind of culture, intelligence to

862

understand what they might be going through,

might just take someone over the edge of just

863

doing something.

864

So I think for me, it's not, I don't think

865

it's more than just saying, what kind of

support should I give you?

866

Because often people will go, no support.

867

And again, I think it's the same.

868

I've seen it in grief, right.

869

If someone's grieving and you say, what can I

870

do to support you?

They'll say, no, I'm absolutely fine.

871

They're not fine.

872

So you then go, okay, how about we go for a

873

walk in the park?

Would that be, would you like, then all of a

874

sudden you go, oh, yeah, I love that.

875

So it's just thinking a bit more around what

876

they might be going through and what might be

helpful.

877

So that you've always got that second follow

up question, which when they, when they

878

invariably, some of them people, this is

exactly what you could do, support me.

879

When they say, just don't just walk away.

880

When they say, no, I'm absolutely fine.

881

Because no one ever really is absolutely fine,

and everyone can do with a bit more support.

882

MaryLayo: Yeah.

883

Tina: I think the thing that I would add just

on top of that, again, we sort of work in the

884

same industry is also you can educate yourself

around some of the experiences.

885

So it just kind of builds a bit of empathy.

886

It's not like every experience is going to be

887

the same, but you can, you know, there are

lots of, you know, Jodi Day is someone, she

888

wrote a book, living the life unexpected.

889

Just educating yourself about some of the

890

experiences that people will go through, I

think can build some empathy and

891

understanding.

892

MaryLayo: And I'm going to end with this

question, which is, what would you say to

893

someone who is going through a similar

situation and they're perhaps not as far in

894

that journey as you are now, what would you

say to them, especially if they're struggling?

895

Yeah.

896

Tina: I wish that I'd got help a bit sooner.

897

I felt alone through the process and, you

898

know, it is a very lonely place.

899

I wish that I had got help and, you know,

900

don't, don't.

901

Well, it's very easy to say, don't be too hard

902

on yourself.

903

But, you know, really trying to take things

904

step by step, day by day, it's not easy.

905

It's never going to be an easy journey.

906

But if you can get some support and try to

look after yourself through it, then hopefully

907

will be something that I don't like the term

come to terms with, but live with and find joy

908

again.

909

Daniele: And I think just to add in terms of,

and again, not everyone going through IVF is

910

in a couple, but for those that are in

couples, I actually would say that everyone

911

should go through being couples therapy during

it.

912

Yeah.

913

I mean, if you don't need couples therapy

914

because you communicate, communicate,

communicate, great.

915

But there's, you know, I actually says to all

my friends that are married now, anyone that's

916

married before they get married, I would say

the same thing.

917

And again, I think it's the same in a couple

going through something like this.

918

Don't know whether you've seen the film.

919

You can tell I love film because I watch a lot

920

of film, but I always tell people they have to

watch the film marriage story because it's the

921

most heartbreaking film because there's two

people that you can tell love each other

922

deeply, but at certain points in their lives,

they just do not communicate properly and it

923

means them doing a part.

924

And I think it's the same.

925

It's the same when you go through something as

difficult as IVF, you have to communicate the

926

whole way through.

927

MaryLayo: Thank you so much, Tina and

Danielle, you've been very open.

928

You've made yourself vulnerable.

929

And I know it's all to the good of people who

930

need to hear this because like we've said,

this isn't really talked about openly much.

931

And so the more that we do this kind of stuff,

the better.

932

So thank you so much.

933

I really appreciate you.

934

Daniele: Pleasure.

935

MaryLayo: Here's a spiritual wellness tip for

you.

936

Meditate on 1st.

937

1st Thessalonians, chapter five, verses 1618,

938

which reads, always be joyful, never stop

praying.

939

Be thankful in all circumstances for this is

God's will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.

940

Thanks for listening.

941

Do follow and join me again next time on

942

beyond the smile with Mary Layo.