Cordie Walker is the founder of Golf Science Lab and GolfWell, and one of the leading voices helping golfers cut through noise, frustration, and endless swing tips. In this episode, Jeff, Justin, and Cordie dig into why most golfers stay stuck, how real skill development works, and how to train for speed and performance that actually transfers to the course.

In this episode of GOLF DON’T LIE™️, Jeff and Justin sit down with Cordie Walker, founder of GolfWell, to break down why golfers struggle to improve even when they consume tons of lessons, content, and swing tips. Cordie explains the science of motor learning and skill acquisition — and why most golfers never train in the way that leads to real, lasting progress.

They explore concepts like variable training, self-organization, real-world practice environments, and why chasing “positions” rarely translates to playing better golf. The guys also dive into the chase for speed and why most golfers train speed incorrectly — along with simple ways to build athleticism and intention into practice.

Cordie shares the evolution of GolfWell, why he believes golfers need fewer fixes and more frameworks, and how modern learning science is reshaping the way coaches and players approach improvement. This is a conversation for any golfer who wants to stop guessing, stop grinding, and start training with purpose.

In This Episode, We Discuss:

• Why golfers get stuck chasing swing tips that don’t stick
• The learning principles that actually produce long-term improvement
• What real skill development looks like (and why it’s rarely “pretty”)
• How to train for speed in a way that transfers to the course
• Why constraints & variability create better golfers
• The evolution of GolfWell and developing systems for frustrated golfers
• The role of athleticism, intention, and exploration in performance
• Why overly technical coaching slows progress
• How golfers can design practice sessions that build skill — not confusion

Guest Bio — Cordie Walker

Cordie Walker is the founder of Golf Science Lab and GolfWell, platforms dedicated to helping golfers improve using evidence-based coaching, learning science, and practical training frameworks. Over the past decade, Cordie has interviewed and collaborated with many of the world’s leading coaches, researchers, and performance experts. His mission is to take golfers out of frustration loops and give them the tools to train skill, speed, and confidence that actually show up on the course.

Links & Resources

• GolfWell: https://golfwell.com
• GolfWell YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@GolfWellTV
• Follow Cordie: @cordie_golfwell
• 18STRONG: https://18strong.com
• 1st Phorm: https://1stphorm.com/18strong

Follow on Social Media:

• @golfdontlie
• @18strong
• @18strongjeff
• @thegoodbogey

The Golf Don't Live podcast is proudly brought to you by our friends over at first form.

Different paths, different stories.

This, this, this game tells all.

Gol don't lie.

What's up guys?

Welcome back to Golf Don't Lie where we talk with some of the most interesting people in and around the game of golf that use golf for competition.

They use it to get stronger.

They use it to basically kind of learn a little bit more about themselves and about life.

I'm Jeff Pelizaro, co founder of 18 strong and I'm here with my buddy Justin Bryant, elite level golfer, dad, husband and a guy that's trying to balance life with playing high level golf.

What's up jb?

How we doing Jeff?

We're, we're recording this post Thanksgiving.

It's snow on the ground here in St. Louis.

It is not golf weather right now, but happy to be talking to you.

No man, I'm slowly becoming less and less of a fan of winter, especially here in St. Louis because it just gets cold and miserable.

The walks in the morning with the pup are that much harder.

The, the ground's a little slushy, traffic is terrible.

Nobody knows how to drive in St. Louis when it snows out apparently because yesterday was just ridiculous.

But no, we, we will do what we can.

This is the time to get in the gym.

This is the time to do the things in the off season that, that nobody else tends to do.

And this is where we get stronger.

Right?

Yeah, I mean I was, I was talking to Mark Blackburn earlier this year, number one ranked coach by Golf Digest, works with Max Homa and been able to kind of pick his brain and was talking about like off season versus in season training just with like the golf swing and how you practice and how does that translate just as I pick your brain here into kind of the fitness side, obviously the gym, it's indoors, you can do it all year round.

But I feel like I am least just move less in, in the outdoors.

And the other day I said you know what, I'm at least going to go on a walk.

It's 20 something degrees.

Gotten a nice three mile walk in the cold.

But what's kind of your, you got any good tips in terms of like off season or just kind of winter when it's you kind of don't you want to move but there's not, doesn't feel like there's as much to do.

Yeah, I mean honestly I, I'm a huge believer that getting out and walking every day, even when it is Cold out is, is so important for one thing, just mentally getting, having to go out when it's cold out.

I think there's a lot to getting out and doing something when you don't want to do it.

And so like this morning when it was cold and snowy and you know, 20 degrees, getting out and doing that just kind of proves to yourself that you're doing more than most.

And I think that there's a lot to that.

But then as far as just general movement over the cold weather and wintertime and stuff, find yourself like a small daily routine.

We have something at 18 strong.

We call them our EFTS, our every effing days and, or our daily motions.

And it's just a group of simple little mobility drills, kind of getting every joint moving that you can do in the office, you could do when you wake up.

I know you do a lot of stuff down in the basement when you get up in the morning and do some of your foam rolling and stuff like that.

Those are, those are key.

And then I'm a big fan of just find some sort of a plan, whether that be two days a week, three days a week, four days a week, but have something written down that you know you need to do.

Obviously, that's what we do here at 18 strong.

So we've got our programs, some of them more robust, some of them are, you know, kind of just, you can do them anywhere but have something written down, whether that's four exercises, five exercises, or a full blown training plan that you can check off the list and say that you did it.

It doesn't have to be golfish.

It doesn't have to be the perfect plan.

It doesn't have to hit every box and hit every part of your body.

Just make sure that you're doing something.

And then of course, with golf, you want to be working on your mobility.

Winter time's a great time to actually build some strength because you don't have to worry so much about being sore when you're going out and playing and then start to work on some speed.

Like, you know, you and I have both been doing the stack exercises, but even implementing things like the medicine ball throws and jumps and just the different things that are going to get you moving fast.

Which is kind of exactly what we talk with our guests about this week.

Cordy Walker.

We get into a lot of the, the speed training and, and the exercise stuff, but I'd say those are the biggest things, is make sure you have a bit of a plan.

Doesn't have to Be the perfect one.

But, but have something.

I love that.

Yeah, I've been, I've been just trying to move more and kind of like, I got a whoop.

I don't even know if we've talked about that or I got it, but I've, I'm a data guy, as you know, so it's been interesting.

I think I've had it for like a little over a month.

Um, the, the weight training side of it says I have a lot to, to learn to, to lean on there.

So we need to, we need, we need to fix that.

But like, just kind of getting some of the baselines I think was an interesting time to start in the winter.

Cuz I just feel like with most people it's like you get up your kids, you work, and it's like, you know, this is a really critical, I would say three, four months before the golf season because it's like if you're doing the wrong things during this time period when you're really excited and it's time to play physically, your body is not going to be ready to kind of, to kind of go.

So.

Yeah, yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to squeeze out the time too.

And I, I totally appreciate that.

I mean, I'm a guy who, you know, I work in a gym all day long, so I have a little bit of extra time or ease of, of getting to the different pieces of equipment or doing things.

But I, I mean, there are many days where I get here when it's dark and I'm training, I'm doing things for the podcast.

Maybe I'll squeeze in a little workout, but there's many times where I'll be at home and you know, I've got my, my son Grant.

He loves to sit down and watch a show in the evening.

Right now we're currently watching Brooklyn Nine Nine, which is hilarious.

I've never seen that.

It's Andy Sandberg.

It's very funny.

But you know, like, he'll be on the couch.

You know, we'll be kind of sitting around as a family and I'll maybe just get on the floor, roll out the yoga mat and just do some mobility exercises or, you know, do a couple kettlebell exercises or something like that.

Just anything to, to make sure that I got some piece of movement done that day.

So you got to just kind of find the nooks and crannies in your time and if you can try to block something off, I know you deal with that too.

You've got the Three little guys, you've got your family.

Sometimes you're working at home, sometimes you're at their office.

How do.

How do you end up squeezing things in?

Is it always an early morning routine for you?

Usually it's.

Honestly, I've learned it's either got to be morning or night because I feel like that time during the day for me is just like, I either have work and then when work's over, I'm in that golden era, the good old days of like, where my boys think I'm really fun, you know, and so it's like they want to play until it's bedtime.

And so it's.

They're like, why do you.

Why do you want to, you know, why do you have things to do?

I thought work was over, so I have to kind of squeeze it in.

I would say before 7pm or kind of after 6 or honestly, like even 8 to 9.

So trying to.

Trying to schedule that out.

My wife gets up early, goes to the gym kind of before school starts, and that's what works for her.

All right, I gotta ask you if there's three things at home, pieces of equipment that you say everyone should have this offseason.

You've talked about walking, you know, your body weight, stuff that's free.

But what.

What are some pieces of equipment that anyone can kind of use?

Garage, Basement?

Guessing.

Kettle bell.

Yeah, like I.

You can do so much bands.

Let me guess, Let me.

Can I guess?

You guess.

I'm going to say kettle bell.

I'm going to say some sort of resistance bands.

And I'm going to say.

I don't know if I go medicine ball or whatever that other ball is where you make me do the hamstring thing.

I forget what that's.

Yeah, I call it a Swiss ball.

We always called it a Swiss ball in PT school.

Just how did I do a big inflatable ball?

I think those are perfect.

I mean, you know, you can go kettlebell or dumbbell.

You know, like, you can get so much done with a kettlebell.

I've really come to love kettlebells over the last couple of years just because you can do a lot of different things with kettlebell and, you know, you don't need a whole rack of dumbbells.

You don't need a whole rack of kettlebells.

You can get kind of creative with say like a 25 pound kettlebell.

But no, I think that's.

That's great resistance band.

So you can kind of loop it around something.

You can do some rowing, a Kettlebell.

You can do all kinds of things with the lower body.

You can do swings, deadlifts, lunges, goblet squats.

And then I really like the, the exercise ball play, too, the Swiss ball, because you can do the hamstring exercises.

You can do some rotation stuff where, you know, your, your shoulders are on it, your feet are on the ground, your hips are in the air.

No, I think that's a pretty good.

That's a pretty good trifecta there, jb.

Look at, look at me, Jeff.

Yeah, Picked up a couple things over the years.

Yeah, for sure.

So I was mentioning this to you right before we got on.

Before we jump into our guest Cordy here, just a little bit of a PSA for everybody listening.

All of our, all of our guys that are kind of like from my age down to your age, even down to, you know, early 30s.

We don't necessarily.

And we hear it all the time.

You know, time goes faster than you think it does.

Right.

And we think that when we're 30 years old, we're kind of bulletproof.

Not quite as much as when we're 18 or 20.

But when you're 30 years old and you're starting to grind with your job, your family, and you get in these ruts of having so much to do from the profession side or whatever else is going on in your life that you tend to kind of take the backseat of, of actually taking care of your fitness and your body.

And I just had a situation two weeks ago.

I had a guy come in, started working with him not too long ago, and he went on an amazing golf trip over to, over to London.

And, you know, it's like a lifetime golf trip for many guys.

He's actually been over there a time or two before.

But here's a guy who went over on a trip with some of his best buddies, was going to play seven days in a row, and simply the fact that he is not in the condition that he could be in just by doing some simple movement, mobility stuff, things that we talked about just a minute ago.

He had to sit out two days of his golf trip because he couldn't.

You know, you have to walk most of those courses over there.

He couldn't walk.

His back was hurting, so he couldn't swing.

And it's like, man, here's a trip that you have kind of.

Some people will only go on one time in their life, and you have to sit out almost a quarter of it because you haven't done the simple things over.

You know, just moving A little bit staying strong and taking care of your health.

So I just.

I just had to throw that out there.

How terrible would that be to miss out on that opportunity?

Yeah, I know.

That's like.

That's.

It's a.

It's a.

If I'm being honest, that's probably like a fear of mine is like, you've just, like.

It's not like you hit a bad shot, because I. I've known that's going to happen enough.

At some point a bad shot's gonna happen, but it's like, you don't want to miss out on those memories and experiences of, like, not just not even being able to suit up, essentially.

So, yeah, it comes quick, too, Jeff.

And I'm not.

I'm not as old as you.

I don't have as much gray in my beard as you yet.

But, you know, it's coming, and I've.

I've.

I've.

I'm starting to feel it.

So I think, you know, it's just.

Just doing the simple things in life goes such a long way, and, like, just the consistency of doing things.

I don't think there's kind of any magic in any success of people I've seen or people taking care of their body, like you ask you ask you, and it's just like, you got to be consistent, like, have a plan, and it kind of takes care of itself from there.

All right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And it.

And honestly, it only gets harder as.

As.

As we get older.

Right?

So the earlier you start, the easier it is to maintain and to just be a healthy individual where you can do those things.

And so just taking the time to start to make those little things, habits, the daily mobilities, or even every couple of days, just making sure that you're not the guy that is doing nothing.

And then all of a sudden, one day you realize, like, you can't squat down to read a putt or you can't walk, you know, nine or 18 holes without, you know, huffing and puffing and, you know, trying to grab a cart at the end.

Because we've seen that.

I mean, we've seen that in our circle of Friday morning guys that, you know, have had trouble coming out and walking for the first time.

And then after they do it, they're like, man, I need to get out and do this more.

And then.

Then they love going out and walking, and they realize kind of what they've been missing.

So I gotta shout out my.

My partner in the Loop de Loop, Jeremy Mossman, I know he's listening when we.

That was the first.

I think he's only walked 18 holes twice in his life and it was both loop de loops.

No way.

And he was sore the next day and he.

Jeremy's a young buck.

He's like 25, so.

And I think the game is more enjoyable walking, honestly.

You know, when you're going over to London, like, it's just the way the game was kind of designed.

And I think us, like a lot of times it's.

It's very much cart and there's a cart path, but like the course and like, I think just the hang, you know, like you and I, like, you get to hang with all four guys kind of walking up the fairway and you kind of go on your adventures.

If.

All right, I'll see you later.

If you kind of go to the right now I've your left or something.

But I just think that's just the way the game is supposed to be played.

And if you do need to take a cart, you know, for.

For medical reasons or just.

The course is just not a course that's designed to be walked.

I know the Mid AM course this year that we played was definitely.

You could walk it.

We walked it.

But I would say it's kind of more designed for kind of cart golf.

But if you can walk, walk, it's.

It's more enjoyable.

It's better for you.

I think you see the course in just a different way.

It's just a good pace to kind of play it out too.

I totally agree.

And I'll.

I'll never be the guy that's like, oh, I'm anti golf cart.

You know, I mean, there's times like you said, oh, yeah, there's courses that.

That require it.

Sometimes you're just out there to.

To hang and have fun with the boys and, and that's cool too.

But if you haven't walked a golf course in a while, I highly, highly, highly recommend that you.

That you go do it and experience it because you are.

I feel like you're.

You're definitely missing out.

So.

All right, PSA is over, officially.

Time for Cordy.

Time for Cordy.

Cordy's a good one.

Cordy's a good one.

Yeah.

And in fact, this is the first time that you and I have done a dual, dual chat with our guests.

So this is awesome because you know Cordy very well.

I. I know Cordy.

You did some work with him with Rapsodo.

You guys are both on.

On the, you know, the speed train, I guess.

We're all on the speed train.

Yours.

Your train's moving a little faster than mine, but no, this was awesome.

Cordy is the, the founder of Golf well, which you can find a lot of their stuff over on YouTube.

That's where they put a ton of time and effort into the content that he puts out over there.

He had one of the longest running golf podcasts in the Golf Science Lab, where he really dove into like, the research and, and motor learning and practice and really reached out and worked with a ton of great instructors.

Still continues to do that.

But Golf Science Lab was a little bit more of the, the golf science nerdy kind of stuff.

You know, the research base and now Golf well, seems to be a lot more of, like, how do you apply this stuff?

And, and he's doing and implementing a lot of that into it.

So we dive into, you know, your, your chase for Speed along with Cordy's.

We.

We talk about some cool stuff that you guys are doing and learned a lot about him and, and what he's learned over the years regarding, you know, better ways to practice, some of the things he's learned from the coaches.

What were some of your favorite highlights or, or parts of chat with Cory?

I mean, he's just, you know, I've worked with you, as you said, with Courtney, on a couple projects and he just has.

I would check out his YouTube channel, as kind of you said, he's of really good, smart people on there and they're just, you know, fascinating stuff to watch.

I love watching kind of his content.

I've done stuff with him with Mark Blackburn, with Claude Harmon, but he has a lot of great stuff with a lot of different coaches and kind of some of it's a little outside the box, I would say, of what you typically see.

I know one of the things we did with Claude was he was, you know, trying to practice under pressure, and he basically made Cordy, like, run sprints and like, do squats and stuff to get his heart rate up.

And like, you would look silly doing it at the golf range.

But if you actually think about, like, how that, you know, you know, translates to being nervous on the course, I think it's really interesting.

And no, I just always like picking Cordy's brain and as he's, you know, trying to Chase 1 90, I just kind of like seeing his process of how he's doing that with, you know, he's got a couple kids himself and a business and trying to manage that.

And that's.

That's no easy feat.

Yeah, that's what I love about, you know, this interview.

And just what he's doing is like, he's just like yourself and myself.

He's a regular guy, right?

He's.

He's a guy who's juggling all of these other things and really using himself as the guinea pig to.

To try to do a lot of it.

And I think my favorite part was when he kind of alluded to the fact that a light bulb went off in his head when he started to implement some of the.

The training.

You know, he.

He's on this quest for speed start to implement some of the exercise things in there, the strength training, and.

And realized that this whole pursuit for golf actually has made a little bit of everything better regarding, you know, him showing up as a dad and life and just being able to move better and feel better overall.

And he's kind of almost gone into this little health and fitness kick, and it all started with golf.

And I think that that's, you know, kind of what we do here.

It's like, the carrot is golf.

And then all of a sudden you realize, like, whoa, this is actually kind of cool for the rest of my life.

Yeah.

I think he was pretty honest about his.

His.

The frequent times he's been to the gym and kind of how he was trying to perform like an athlete but not train like one.

And kind of a light bulb went off, as you said, of like, wait a second, I gotta.

I gotta put some work in if I want to get some work out.

Yeah.

So I think I know that there's a lot of great nuggets from this, our conversation on you guys and what you're doing for the speed and then, you know, just implementing some of the different things in the gym I think will be super valuable for anybody looking for some.

Some extra mileage on their.

Their driver, extra ball speed, and just so many different little avenues that we talk about.

We talk about his business and just the things that he's learned over the years.

So for all of you out there, enjoy this episode with Cordy Walker from Golf.

Well, and we'll catch up with you next week.

Courtney Walker, welcome to the Golf Don't Live podcast.

We are here on a special, special Golf Don't Lie episode because we have Justin Bryant, our co host, joining us.

And I know the two of you have.

Have had some chances to work together, so thanks for coming on.

And it's taken way too long to get you on the show.

It is good to be here.

I'm excited to see what we get into today.

As am I.

As am I. I know you've got some, some roots to St. Louis as well.

We were just commenting that Justin and I are.

Even though we're virtual right now, we're only about 10 minutes apart from each other.

But what are the roots of St. Louis again?

I was born in St. Louis, grew up there.

We moved up to Minnesota when I was probably 8 or 9.

So it's been the, it's.

Gosh.

What hospital was it?

Is it St. Joseph?

No.

Is it St. Joseph's down St. John?

St. John.

St. John's maybe.

Maybe something like that.

Anyways, I'm a St. Louis native.

Ish.

All right.

Okay.

And then moved up there and then did your golf career start when you were a youngster or.

Or is this something that you kind of got into a little later?

Yeah, there are pictures of me, you know, as just a small, small little child hitting a golf ball.

But yeah, started, you know, playing junior tournaments at, you know, 10, 11 and kind of chased it all the way through high school and had fun playing all the tournaments and stuff.

So yeah, I grew up in Minnesota playing, playing golf, junior golf up here, which is great.

Like Minnesota has a great golf kind of culture.

Like it's just a bunch of great, bunch of great people, great courses.

You know, people might say, oh, you guys only play for three months a year.

Which you're not technically wrong, but it is pretty good.

We like it.

Yeah.

It's not, it's not a place that you hear very often on the, the bucket list.

Destinations of people to go to go play some golf.

What's, what's the top, top course up there that we may have heard of?

Top course Interlocking Country Club is always one of the best.

Fantastic.

I remember going actually to the Women's US Open there as a kid.

I don't remember when that was, but that was pretty cool.

That was back a while.

And then obviously, you know, we got Hazeltine over over there.

USAM was up here last year.

Um, what else is around?

There's, I mean, there's tons of good golf.

Then you go up north and it's totally different.

Like the farther north you go, it's all like tree lined and evergreens and stuff like that.

So you guys know Minnesota golf for you, for you guys, you just like to stay kind of right, right there at the St. Louis kind of.

I'm sure Justin's got a few more under his belt than, than I do.

Have you ever been up that way, jb?

I don't think I've played in Minnesota anywhere.

I'm trying to think, like, I've played some Wisconsin golf, but, like, I've never played Hazeltine.

Yeah.

I'm trying to.

I'm trying to think what's up there.

I don't.

I think we might have to make a trip.

Trip up to Minnesota?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we've.

I've done a little Wisconsin golf, Michigan golf as well, but then you guys do Sand Valley.

Is that the Wisconsin golf?

No, I did Aaron Hills.

Okay.

Went to a quick trip on Father's Day last year, two Father's Days ago.

Quick trip, drove up, spent the night, played the next day, drove back home.

It was, it was awesome, though.

Yeah.

Have you been there?

To the.

Went to the US Open there.

I can't remember what year that was, but it was awesome.

You know, like, we don't get too much major golf like that around here in the Midwest, so it's so cool.

I know.

Like, I don't know what everyone thinks about that U.S. open, but hey, as a guy that was able to drive over and like, go watch it, it was pretty sweet because it was nearby and like, it was, it was a track, though.

That thing is massive.

It is.

It's such a cool property.

It kind of ate my lunch a little bit, but it was just so neat staying in the cabin and the blind shots and the caddy experience and it was.

It was really, really a great time.

Anybody listening needs to book your trip to Erin Hill sometime soon.

So, Corey, you've been in the.

The storytelling of golf for a long time.

Did you ever picture yourself getting into that when you were a young kid playing golf and, you know, playing some of that competitive stuff?

Did you see yourself moving in this direction?

The answer is no.

There's a hard no on that.

I have an accounting degree.

And then I was trying to do a software startup in golf.

Somehow I ended up making a podcast to start to market that software startup.

I ran out of money and couldn't.

Couldn't do the software startup anymore.

And so that, that tanked.

But here we are 10 years, 12 years later, having more fun than ever doing, doing who knows what I really do, to be honest with you.

So, yeah, no, I, I had, I had no vision.

A long term goal of like, hey, I would love to be like, making stuff in golf and telling stories around instruction and, you know, performance and stuff like that.

It was like, yeah, there was no goal to get here, but boy, is it awesome.

Awesome to be doing what I get to do.

It's.

It's really, really cool.

So that was Golf Science Lab.

That, I assume was the.

Was the podcast that started way back when.

What was the.

What was the startup idea?

Yeah, so before that, it was scheduling and student management for golf instructors.

So I was like, I started talking to golf instructors.

So it was golf in the life of.

Is telling, like, business stories for golf instructors.

So I just got to know, like, everybody, and it was just, you know, not many people.

Nobody was doing a podcast.

And it was super fun.

I got to know a bunch of great people, a lot of them that I still talk to today.

So it was.

It was a very roundabout way to get into.

To get into this.

So then what.

What was the.

The transition then into the Golf Science Lab piece?

And so you said you ran out of money on the startup, then is an easy way to make a quick decision.

But then what was the mindset when you shifted over into Golf Science Lab?

Yeah, so that was 20, like, 15, I think.

When I went to Golf Science Lab, I was just, like, very randomly got involved in some conversations about, like, golf research and stuff, and I was like, oh, this is really cool.

So I wanted to tell some stories of, like, what I was learning because no one was talking about it.

And so I just started doing that.

Did a bunch of episodes on motor learning, and then I did a bunch of episodes on biomechanics and a bunch of episodes on tech and.

Went to a world scientific congress of golf and just started making stuff.

And we did some virtual summits.

And it was.

It was super fun, like, meeting all these people in the research space and instructors and being able to, like, share that.

And it seemed like a bunch of people were interested in it, and it was.

It was really, really fun.

So we did a bunch of seasons of podcast, these virtual summits, and then that did that up until, I don't know, probably 20, 21 or so.

And then just kind of ran out of steam doing stuff because it stopped traveling because Covid happened.

And I was working on a bunch of other stuff as well, and so just kind of went on the back burner for a little while, which was.

Which was.

It was a season.

My golf.

My career golf has gone.

And it is.

There are very distinct kind of, like, chunks of time that have happened, which is interesting.

Cordy, what was your, like, competitive background in terms of, you know, I know you're introduced to the game young, but kind of.

Did you play high school, any college?

Yeah, I. Yeah, I played all the, like, junior PGA stuff, played in high school, playing the high school team and, you know, played all the qualifier tournaments and played all the state tournaments.

And I. I was never, like, super good.

I wasn't bad, but, like, I. I was okay competitive player and then.

Just, you know, and that was another reason I got into what I did is just because, like, I. I really was.

Looking back, like, the coaching that I got, there wasn't a lot of access to coaching in the area that I was at, and like, the coaching experience that I had of, like, trying to get better, there just wasn't much guidance there.

So that was another thing that's kind of fueled me all along of like, I wish, you know, like, there were some resources out there when I was growing up, and I, like, I wish I knew this stuff.

And so, like, that's another thing that kind of fuels some of what I like doing on this mission to try to share, like, better concepts with people and, like, distill down these ideas and make it shareable and entertaining for people.

So, like, I don't know, do you guys resonate with that at all?

Like, of, like, a lot of maybe what you're.

When you think about, like, some of this.

These topics of, like, I wish I knew that when I was younger or whatnot, and kind of that pushing you to keep learning and, and sharing.

Oh, every day, I mean, you know, watching content from people like yourselves or even watching like a Mark Blackburn teaching, and especially with me, you know, again, I never, ever, ever pictured myself being in the golf world, you know, 20 years ago.

And being somebody that came to the game of golf later in life.

And now seeing what some of these coaches are, you know, sharing with the rest of us on how to actually play, how to actually practice.

It's fascinating to me, coming from a different sports world into the world of golf and again, kicking myself, like, man, I wish I played this game 20 years ago or grew up like you guys playing the game.

So I'm constantly feel like I'm behind and learning more.

How about you, jb?

Yeah, it's like, one of those things that I look back and I'm like, dang.

But at the same time, I think it's.

It's part of, like, you know, I wish we knew now, but, you know, if I go back to when I was in college, like, there just wasn't as much information shared, right?

Like, just the.

The social media, like, even, like, you know, we had a trackman at our facility at Wake, but, like, I think I probably used it, like, a handful of times just because it was still, like, kind of new, you know, this was.

But, like, not.

Not understanding, you know, some of the metrics like I do now, where it's like, okay, you can really optimize your.

Whether it's your setup of your bag or, you know, trying to hit it further or just, like, you know, base understanding of things like that.

So I think there's so much more information in tech now that makes it so much easier to learn faster and more efficiently.

But I definitely wish I could go back.

Go back, I don't know, 15 years and take what I know now, Cordy, I have to ask because, you know, you've been doing this for a long time, looking at some of the videos, and I know you kind of study, you know, ways to get better, and I've noticed you have a different hairstyle than you do a couple few years ago.

Have you seen, like, a correlation of long hair over short hair?

Cordy, like, what are their correlation anywhere on your scores?

Yeah, 100%.

The long hair for me did not translate to Kyle Berkshire's speed as much as.

As you'd want to correlate that of, like, is there something there?

I tested it.

There is not.

So I just want to con.

You know, myth is busted.

You do not have to have hair like Kyle Berkshire.

If you grow it out like that, you do not swing that fast.

So the.

Definitely.

The shorter hair has inspired more speed.

Actually, maybe it's a bit more streamlined, but.

Yes, yes.

Well, I'll tell you that the children took the hair is what happened.

I think after child two, the hair came off.

Uh, and then.

Two more later, we're just.

Yeah, we're just keeping up.

I don't know.

Yeah, that's a.

It's a good question.

Speaking.

Speaking of.

Speaking of.

Of the speed factor, both of you boys are on a little bit of a speed mission.

Actually, JB some.

Some big news from you.

I got a text message from you a couple days ago about some speed related stuff.

But Cory, I know, I know you're hitting, going for the 190 ball speed.

Is that the deal?

So give us a little insight on that.

Give us, you know, what's the, where we at?

How's it looking?

What's the plan?

I, I, well, I didn't know Justin was doing this, so I, we got, we'll exchange notes here.

I so last year was 180, which I got to.

That wasn't too hard, to be honest with you.

I think that was just like, I just had to prime my body better and just like actually try to do it and got there.

190 is a whole nother problem.

Like I, so I, I've worked hard.

Like the beginning of the year, I was down in Jupiter.

I saw Colby Tuye, realized that like I am just.

My body is an absolute mess.

Like I have no strength at all.

Like as a chronic, never go to the gym.

Like not interested kind of guy.

Like, it's a real problem if you want to hit 190, if that's your attitude.

So that changed and I started trying to do stuff in the spring.

But then summer came and like just.

You don't do anything right.

You're just trying to play golf and keep up with kids.

So I wasn't doing any speed training.

Then I woke up and realized it was, you know, November 1st and if I'm gonna hit my goal, I'm like running out of time rapidly.

So right now I'm in the full panic mode of trying to hit it before the, before the end of the year.

The current status on my end of year sprint here is the other weekend I got up.

I have a Skytrack plus set up that I kind of mainly practice on as well as the rapsodo.

Sorry.

The children will take that and throw it.

So I'm sorry, Justin.

Just want to call that out here right away.

We make the Skytrack too.

It's fine.

Okay.

It's all in the family.

Good.

Um, and, and so that was 126 club speed.

185 ball speed or something like that was like a couple weekends ago.

Um, that's kind of like the top speed, but my wrist started hurting a couple days later.

So then like now we're ten days after that and it's kind of okay.

I hit 12 balls last night.

I don't know.

So anyways, that's where we're doing.

That's that's where things are.

I like, honestly, I think I can get there.

I just need my body not to collapse on me in the next.

How many days?

40 days or something.

So we might, we might have to talk.

We might have to talk off air about this wrist.

What's.

Where, where's it hurting exactly?

Like, just right.

It's kind of like, honestly, when I take it away, like when I take it away, it kind of hurts like right on the.

The top there.

On the top.

Okay.

So I've been doing like your classic, you know, pulling up YouTube videos and just going through all the stuff and like, I've done that every day trying and it's, it's getting a little bit better.

But.

Yeah, I know.

I mean, if you speed train at all, like, you just realize that like your bot, your body is everything.

Your warm up is everything.

Like, if you don't warm up, that's like three miles an hour right there in clubhead speed.

So anyways, Justin, what are you doing?

What's your, what's your experiment?

Yeah, so I'm definitely not at 190.

Just, just crossed the 180 mark.

So I think it was, you know, I always played.

And again, I think it's going back to like, what wish what we knew now is like, I always played and I've told Jeff a million times, like, I grew up in the era, same as you, but like with tech was different.

And my dad was like, swing 80, swing 80%.

Like, and so I was.

He would get mad if I kind of swung fast.

Honestly, like as a kid, even on the range, he's like, what are you doing?

You're not going to do that in the course.

Which is like the complete opposite of what any coach would do now.

And so I think I was so ingrained that way that I kind of had to like change just the.

I'm not going to say the right phrases here, but just kind of change the mindset of swinging, you know, fast.

And so I think when I played I was probably like 110 to 112.

It's kind of like when I was playing professionally, that's kind of just where I lived.

I was fine with it.

Hit it a little bit lower and.

And then I didn't like when my buddies would just smash it by me.

And I'm just like seeing their club speed and ball speed and you kind of realize how big of an advantage that is competitively.

So my goal was really to just get my, I would say cruiser to be at like one low 100/70s.

My cruiser kind of going into this year was like, 167.

And so I was like, I just want to get my Cruiser in the 170s.

I'm 37 now.

Like, I don't want to lose speed.

That's what I like.

Goal number one.

And so kind of, I would say, somewhat similarly, like, beginning of the year was doing the stack, and then, like, you know, summer hits.

I got three boys, too, and it's like, more competitive season, and I'm kind of, like, not doing a lot of that training.

And then the last couple.

Last couple months, I kind of kicked it into gear, and I top at.

I don't think I've ever swung harder than 122, so that's kind of, like, been my ceiling.

And so was telling Jeff, like, I. I had.

I couldn't get 180, but I was getting 122.

And I'm like, I need to figure out this equation because I'm swinging fast enough to get to 180.

So Jeff was kind of was joking with me, but I kind of honestly tinkered with my.

Just even like, a.

My attack angle with it because I hit up on it like, 6 degrees.

And so I was like, all right, if I swing, you know, 122, but my attack angle is more flat, I'm going to get 180 if I hit a good one.

Right?

So you can.

Some can say I cheated the system, but it's also just, honestly, as you said, it's like going down those rabbit holes of, like, all right, let's see what 122 club speed with 180 ball speed looks like when I hit it with a zero attack angle and a good one.

And, like, let's see what happens when I swing up on it, you know, at 120 with the ball speeds not quite 180, but it's launching higher with low spin.

So it was honestly just like, an interesting experiment to even see those numbers and realize that, like, I've increased my swing speed.

So, like, everything else is helped, but I.

It's okay to not be 180, even with the high swing speed, because I'm launching it a little bit higher and the distance is there.

Right.

So I almost think it's kind of different experiments into.

Into what.

What we can do.

But, yeah, I'm.

I'm debating for 20, 26, what.

What do I want to set, like, kind of the.

I don't know if I'm going to go to 190 I would.

I think Jeff.

Jeff would hear too many problems with my body at 190, but I think I might push 185.

Cordy.

I mean, 190.

What your ball club speed's got to get to what, 127 kind of minimum for like a 15 smash.

Is that kind of.

Am I doing that math right?

Yeah, I mean I, I'm going for closer to 1:30 just.

Cause I need.

I want more.

I need some more.

You know, wiggle room here.

1146 would be great.

You know, let's be realistic for a smash for me.

So we're gonna, we're gonna just put.

So 127 is your top.

126.

126 on like Skytrack.

I've gotten.

And this is, you know, another fun debate, but it was like I've gotten to 129 on a foresight GC3.

So they're, they're all a little different.

Right.

So you kind of have to pick your.

You got to pick your tool of what where you're measuring.

Do you jump devices to hit your goals.

Something.

These are all on the table.

Nothing wrong with that.

Right?

Exactly.

So no.

So yeah.

What have you been doing, Justin?

Dude, have you just been like going to the.

Going to the garage and just trying to swing faster?

Like what have you done kind of on your.

Your journey this year?

Yeah, I think like doing something with the stack's been.

Been good and then honestly just like good old fashioned.

Like I'm gonna swing as hard as I can, type, type thought experiment and not really worrying about where the ball's going.

Like with an actual driver, it's just an exercise at the end.

And then just like in terms of like swing mechanics, I know you've done stuff with Mark.

Mark's.

You know, we do a ton of stuff with Mark, so I've been able to pick his brain over the years.

And you guys have done stuff on speed training.

So just kind of like taking the club back faster, trying to get taller on the backswing.

And those have kind of been my big ones.

And honestly, like the sound sound simple, but like trying to be athletic as you can and think about the club head moving fast, not like swinging my arms fast, not swinging my body fast.

Like I'm trying to swing that club head fast, right?

Because I think a lot of times before I would get really tense, I'm trying to rotate my core and like my legs fast, which sometimes it like was slower, you know what I mean?

So for me, like, that's what's gotten me.

I would say, like, that 122, I think, to get me to kind of that 127, like, the Cordy range, we're gonna have to do some explosive stuff in the.

In the Jeff gym.

So I'll kind of let you take it from there.

For the next leg of the challenge.

I was just gonna ask Cord if he.

If he noticed the missing component in all of your training right there.

I'll.

I'll tell you, Justin.

It is.

It's hard to go faster if you're not doing stuff in the gym.

That's what I learned.

There's a hard ceiling if you're just trying to do it.

So, listen, we can look at the negative here or we can look at the positive, is that we have a higher ceiling than one potential is.

Think of where we can go.

Yeah, let's just go.

Let's just go.

Think of where we can go.

So, no, for real.

For real, though, Cordy, like, you said that, you know, 180 was one thing, and then you went and you worked with Colby, and you kind of figured out a few things.

What were some of the highlights that.

That you guys diagnosed down there?

And then what was, you know, kind of the couple big rock things that you ended up pulling into the strength training component and speed training component.

Yeah.

So, I mean, you know, he just took me through an assessment, and just we were realizing that I had limited mobility kind of in the lower body.

I don't really have glutes.

Like, they just don't exist.

They don't fire at all.

Like, if I tried to get me in a loaded position and rotate, like, I just have no balance or stability, just falls apart.

So, like, it is just general.

Jeff, I've never been to the gym, right?

Like, I don't know any of the stuff, and I haven't my whole life.

And so it was just like, just imagine that person, you know, just walking in and being like, I'm gonna swing faster than a Tour pro.

It's gonna be great.

I'm gonna do it.

And it's just like, no, you're not.

You're idiot.

You're gonna, like, hurt yourself and fall over.

So, you know, like, that's where it's just.

I mean, you.

You know this, but, like, it's so important.

And, like, that's why I love doing these speed challenges because, like, I would not be into this.

Like, you do great stuff.

Jeff.

I. I now enjoy watching your videos because now I'M in you now.

I'm in that world.

But, like, if, if that's what if I hadn't started my speed journey, I think I'd still just be, like, off somewhere trying to, you know, ignore the gym.

So that's, like, why I think I, I personally need this, because it's helping my whole life.

Like, I'm trying to, you know, get stronger, fitter, eating better.

It's, like, kind of, it has all these.

That's why I'm, like, a huge proponent of speed training.

You know, it changes your life.

Write that down.

Yeah, I mean, speed training changes your life.

I, I, We've been saying it for years.

It's like golf is like the carrot to kind of, like, coerce you to get into the gym to start moving better and lifting a little weights and.

But it really does.

It changes everything.

It gives you more energy.

It makes you feel stronger.

Obviously, you can go out and shoot lower scores and play more golf and do all of these things that you didn't really realize would be the benefit of trying to go swing faster or trying to just move a little better so you could swing a golf club a little bit better.

So, like, strength training wise, what were some of the big things that you then added in that, you know, made a difference?

Yeah, so I, I've just been trying to do basic strength stuff.

All I have, like, and you can see it on the Instagram, is, like, my basement, my unfinished basement.

I've got a kettlebell, some dumbbells, and so I'm trying to do strength stuff.

You know, just squats, split squats, all that kind of stuff.

Deadlifts.

I'm learning.

These are all new, new words for me, too, as of this year.

So excited to show my vocabulary off and, and then, like, coupling that with some fast stuff.

I mean, that was one thing that I love that Colby talked about is, like, move fast.

Like, how do you expect to move fast in the golf swing if you're not moving fast in the gym?

So a lot of band stuff using.

I have some of those downshift bands.

So lots of, lots of bands.

Trying to load and rotate and move quickly and kind of contrasting those.

And then I've really seen the, the impact of jumping and, like, med ball stuff.

So, like, as hard, you know, throwing med balls as hard as you can, jumping as high as you can, and it's like, and not just, like, mindlessly, but really paying attention to.

All right, Feel the feet and, like, as you generate force.

This sounds really lame.

As you know, I'm describing this, but, like, pay attention to the feet and how you're putting force into the ground and kind of like that, the whole process.

And I've seen that, like, when you do that to warm up, honestly, like before you go hit, like, big difference, big difference in how your body's gonna move than if you just kind of rock up, do some leg swings and start hitting.

So that's a, A bit of a.

Kind of what.

What I've seen make a difference.

And then, yeah, I'm still learning still.

I've got so, so much to go.

Um, and.

And I need to get stronger, so.

Well, I, I mean, I think that you're doing the, the things.

It's really sticking with the core fundamental things from, you know, my side of the fence is, is the strength training stuff, the boring things, the things that don't get the views and the clicks and everything on Instagram.

It is, it's the deadlifts, it's the split squats, it's doing the, the bed ball throws, the jumps, things like that.

We like to, to talk about just the elasticity training.

Right.

Like, especially.

How old are you?

33.

33.

So.

Oh, you're a young buck.

Yeah, right.

Like, you still got years on you guys.

You got those young tendons and muscles and stuff like that.

But honestly, and especially the more you do that stuff now and you, and you keep training your body to, to feel that quick tension and feel those little hops and the jumps and things like that, it allows you to maintain that speed.

Whereas somebody like myself, if, if you haven't been training like that and all you've been doing is kind of old school strength training or just mobility exercises, and you're not doing those things that make you.

Those tendons and the muscles move quickly.

And we're learning a lot more about fascia these days and, and how the fascia stores that energy and, and more like a rubber band kind of a thing.

So it's, it's not so much about the muscles contracting quickly, it's the tendons and the fascia storing that and then kind of exploding kind of like a kangaroo.

But if you don't train that stuff, you start to get like, these brittle tendons and, and, you know, your muscles stiffen up and that's where, you know, some of the injuries occur, because maybe that wrist is not used to all that quick, you know, expand and contract and, and so if you're doing that over and over and over again, you're starting to get that wear and tear and now you got to settle down.

And, and really that's the whole point of doing all this stuff so you don't have to sideline yourself from going and playing.

Right?

So now you're on a mission to, to get as much speed as possible.

So you're doing it a little differently than most, but it just shows that implementing those things properly, building the strength, building the elasticity, makes such a huge difference.

What do you guys think?

I've been playing around with like, frequency of hitting, so I think I've landed on like one, maybe two, like really heavy session of a 40, like 40 plus, like full on drives and then like sprinkling throughout, like more technical sessions, like in between, along with some like gym sessions to try to just wreck my legs a few times in between.

Like what?

I'm just curious your take on that.

So my goal, like, what I'm thinking is like one major session a week or just go nuts and like I have to break my, my primary.

And then in between, like a few, like, all right, I'm working on certain things in my swing and then I'm in the gym.

I'm working on certain things that I know I just need to get stronger on.

And like a few times a week, like, that's kind of my progression I'm working on right now.

Any.

Any feedback?

Any.

Any thoughts?

Well, my first question would be, are you doing like Ripstick or the Stack or any of those like, programs with, with different devices or are you simply doing driver swings in your sim?

I am doing driver swings.

I like those programs.

I think they're great.

I have found myself too undisciplined to keep with the program, unfortunately.

Yeah.

And I love hitting golf balls.

That's my other thing.

Like, I just love hitting.

And I found.

Like, I do, I do.

Like, so there, there are things like with overspeed training that I am working into it, as in like using the lighter stick somewhat.

Before going into some sets.

And that's, I think with speed training I'm starting.

I'm treating them like sets too.

So I'm like trying to do sets of six to eight, rest for three to five minutes.

Sets of six to eight, rest in the actual like 40 ball, 40 to 60 ball set, like proper training that I'm doing.

Yeah, I'm just brain dumping here.

This is, this is all the, all the stuff that's, that I'm thinking about as I'm working on this.

But no, I love it.

Jb, any, any initial thoughts from you?

Yeah, I think you're thinking about the right way, I think.

I think probably 1 to 2 to like 3 would probably be like the most.

I would say to kind of like get after it like that with the driver.

Um, but I would kind of play around with like.

I think everyone's body honestly is like so different in terms of like how it responds to what you're doing in the gym, how it responds to hitting balls the day before.

Like, I kind of like to switch it up just from like a.

Like I'll work on my swing technique one day.

I'll work on just unleashing the driver one day.

Like different aspects of the game.

I think that like, keeps me mentally fresh and like, kind of exciting to know.

Like today I'm doing something different.

But yeah, I would, I would kind of play around and like test and see.

Like, I think I remember um, Dr. Sasha McKenzie saying something like Fitzpatrick like, you know, does his speed training like after his gym session session, which like, I don't know how that's possible, honestly.

Like, I feel like I would swing my slowest, but I think like some people or like after around, some people swing faster.

Like I would mess around and see like how you get to your fastest speeds and kind of see.

I don't know.

That might take a little discipline though corded a.

To budget that in there.

But I think, I think that would be my, you know, I think one to three days is.

Is spot on and then just kind of like mess with it and like one week do do it on different, you know, day intervals, like the day after the gym or like two days after the gym and see.

See if you see like a pattern.

Yeah, my, my thought process there coming more from kind of the strength training side of things is anytime you go with like a lot of intensity, and in this case intensity would be like swinging max.

That's going to wear on your nervous system too.

More so even than just your muscles and your tendons.

I would definitely not suggest doing a heavy driver session after your workouts unless it's more of like a, like a mobility and kind of a quick moving thing where you're not really pushing weight or doing much resistance, where it's more like a kind of a warmup workout.

Like you said, like the stack system.

I think one of the coolest thing about the stack system is that little warmup that they do beforehand and then they have you certify if you're warm enough, like if you're swinging fast enough.

Because there's been times where I'm like, I'm Good.

I, I, I did a couple little things like you said, some leg swings and, and then you swing, you're like oh, I'm no, I'm nowhere close to where they, they say I should be to, to do this session.

And then you really see it if you do kind of say ah, skip it, I'm fine.

You do notice that you aren't swinging as fast.

But I would say that the neurological component is, is kind of a piece you want to think about where you're not doing these marathon sessions of, you know, trying to swing fast for an hour.

I would say do like you said, set a six to eight or whatever, take your good long rest but I wouldn't do many more than you know, three, four sets of that if you want to really maximize what you're getting out of each one.

And I would almost even say maybe go less then six to eight, go more like five reps, take a good long rest and it's going to feel like it takes forever but you'll get more out of those and your body will recoup a little bit better.

But yeah, I'd say no more than, probably no more than even two big driver sessions a week.

And then you know, pair that in with some, some of the strength training but just time it out and figure out what works best for you.

So the ball count in the like session itself.

I, so I've been, I've been trying to research like sprinters.

My good, my good friend Chat GPT and I have been diving into like research on sprinters because I, I feel like that's a really good like what I want to do like explosive quick movements.

Right.

So I've been trying to, and that's where like some of this like the set thing came from.

However, anecdotally Bryson has talked about massive sets of hundred plus balls.

Right.

Like, and personally my fastest swings have come after ball 50 every time.

Like my, the one time at 129 was ball 71 or something like that and like ball the 120, my fastest the other day was like ball 50 or ball 40 something.

So like yes, I, I, I looked at like the research stuff on the sets and like taking breaks and that and like I mentally agree with all that.

However, then I hear this like hear him say that about hitting all those balls and then myself knowing that like I've really got to get myself like worked up into like this.

I don't know.

So I like, I have the personal experience which I start to question that at the same time I I don't know, just throwing a wrench in there of like something that I've been mulling on as well as I've been thinking about it.

And we'll be right back.

If you train hard or even just want to recover better after golf, Formula one from first form is my go to.

It's a fast digesting protein that tastes like a milkshake.

It goes down smooth and it gets straight to work.

I use it after every workout and most of the guys in the 18 strong crew do too.

So whether you're lifting, playing, or just really trying to stay active without feeling beat up, this stuff helps you bounce back.

Grab yours@firstform.com 18strong and when you order through that link, you're actually going to be entered in to win our monthly giveaway, which is a first form gift card and some 18 strong swag.

Look, recovery doesn't have to be complicated.

Just do the simple things that work.

Play more golf, live more life.

Go check it out firstform.com 18 strong.

Check it out now.

Hey guys, if you're new here, Golf Don't Lie is part of 18 Strong, a global golf and fitness community, and we consider you part of our crew.

Come join us over on Instagram where we share behind the scenes content of our golf spottings, training tips, crew success stories, and our super popular where's that Tile Post where our guys post a picture of their 18 strong tile at all the cool places they go.

Just search at 18 strong, hit the follow button and let us help you on your journey to play more golf and live more life.

All right, now back to the show.

No, I love it.

And I mean keep, keep us all posted on what continues to work because I, I mean we've all done it.

We've sat there and banged a hundred balls into a net.

And you know, it does, sometimes it takes.

Takes a while for you to feel like you're even getting in a groove or whatever.

So no, I'm curious what your, what you figure out there and keep us, keep us posted there for sure.

I'm glad you brought the Bryson part up because I remember like reading that or seeing in a clip and I was like, ball.

He's like, yeah, you got to be over ball 100 in the swing of your.

And I was like, that is so many like swings just in general, but that's a lot of like fast swings.

I don't think I've gotten to the over 100 mark yet.

I think I'm probably in the 40 to 50 when I've done it.

But for, for me, for whatever reason, I kind of do them in sets of like three.

Like, and I've kind of noticed like three or four swings and then like if I rest for like 30 to 60 seconds after the fourth and then kind of restart it up.

So that's kind of like those first and second swings, post rest seem to be the fastest for me.

Interesting.

Once I'm kind of warmed up and everything.

But yeah, ball 100 or whatever, that's.

I, I see how it makes sense because, like, you're probably like, your nervous system's probably firing.

Like, your body's fully warm.

Like, that's.

I don't know, it's really tiring.

At the same time, it feels like we, we could just call Sasho and get the answer to all of these questions.

Right?

Yeah, we'll follow up.

Yeah.

Why did Bryce.

Yeah, I do want to know why Bryson says that though.

That is, that is weird that, that whole concept of hitting that many golf balls.

But anyways.

Yeah, no, so that's the, that's the speed, I guess, from.

Help me Jeff.

I, I do just want your feedback though.

So I'm doing my, my big day on like Saturday or Sunday because I have the most time to like block off this two hours.

I'm gonna do 20 minutes warm up in gym hour, hitting plus hitting and then back to the gym to just kind of like really just try to kill myself before, you know, kind of carrying on with the rest of the week just to really hammer it that day.

What, like, what would, how would you time everything out the rest of the week then if, if the goal is like one really big day on Saturday, Sunday, maybe a midday, you know, some other throughout the week with an hour.

Like, what would you, what would you do?

Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, are you getting in like maybe three other days where you're going down the basement to work out?

Yeah, so.

So I would say that on those three other days I would do again a good warm up where you're, you know, kind of getting things moving.

You're getting, getting your, your body temperature up.

You know, start out maybe with a little foam rolling, but then do some different mobility exercises, even do a little bit of like hopping, skipping, jumping, those kind of things.

You can do your med ball throws at the beginning.

And then I like, once you kind of get through that good, that good warmup, then I typically will do one or two, like heavier strength related exercises and then maybe throw in something fast with those and then take Your good break.

So that could be a jump, that could be a medicine ball slam, that could be a medicine ball throw.

And I consider that kind of like the big, the big block of the workout.

And then after that superset, you know, maybe you're doing four rounds of that or, or three to five rounds of that, then moving into some other maybe smaller exercises or a little higher rep kind of stuff, 8 to 10 reps.

Whereas those other, that, that big block was going to be more like a, you know, five to seven rep stuff where you're lifting a little bit heavier and then you're trying to move fast and then you're going to take your rest before you, you cycle that through.

Um, and then I, I tend to like to do like core related stuff and hips and things like that towards the end of a workout.

Almost not quite a cool down, but you know, where it's not as intense.

And I would just do that, you know, three of those.

So three total body workouts the rest of the week where you're just kind of trying to feel more athletic but making sure that you get something a little heavy and a little fast in there as well.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, like.

Yeah, I always think, I like to think about time now for some reason with like this stuff like 60 minutes.

At the most, at the most, I'd say 40, 45 is plenty.

Especially for, you know, a guy that has a family has, it is very busy.

You know, I, I think that we, if we do it well and we do it efficient, we don't have to do quite as much as we, as we once thought.

It's just, it's more about getting quality work in than total quantity.

Especially when the goal is really be more athletic and swing faster.

I mean if those are the, the most important things to you now, if it's body composition or it's get as strong as possible, then we got to look at different ways to train in the gym and, and it might be different than the total body workouts and, and moving as much, but you know, if, if the goal is to swing a golf club faster and be a good healthy athletic dad, you know, that's plenty.

And you wouldn't do that probably the day before you would want to max out speed.

Right?

I'm guessing.

I, I'd likely take a day before that.

You know, maybe you're doing like an active recovery or mobility kind of workout.

But I wouldn't do the heavy, I wouldn't necessarily do the heavy lifts now if you have to, it's if you run out of time, it's not going to kill you.

But on an optimal week, if you can really design it, I'd say, you know, maybe do.

Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday workouts.

You know, like the total body workouts.

And then if you're killing yourself on Saturday, although if you're killing yourself on Saturday, you might want to.

You might want to give yourself the next day to rest.

So maybe do like a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday or something like that.

So, yeah, just play around a little bit.

My big question is, do you have a hex bar?

No.

Okay.

So that would be one piece of equipment that I would suggest you go get.

It's just a, A hex bar that you can do deadlifts with and you can buy it for 75 at Walmart.

Will have it to you tomorrow.

Okay.

It's Black Friday.

Are we going shopping?

Yes.

Yes.

Send me a link, Jeff.

Tell me which one to buy.

I will.

Get a discount.

Yeah, no, that's a whole new thing.

Is, is gym equipment.

How fun is this?

I'm getting.

Yeah, there's just all this great stuff.

See what speed training can do for you.

Justin, we never would have had this conversation if we weren't trying to hit these ball speeds, you know.

That's right.

I've got all kinds of things that I can send you now.

All right, perfect.

I'm in for sure.

I'll just add it to the cart.

All right.

So I want to shift over to so Golf.

Well, you went from golf science lab to Golf.

Well, what prompted the change in the name, what the direction of the company and what that all looks like?

Yeah, I mean, it was just.

It started out I was talking with academic researchers and like trying to chase that down.

And now I'm just kind of.

I. I feel like my job is to go tell interesting stories in golf performance.

Like that's what I, I treat my like work as.

And some of it is non research based.

You know, it's.

And that's totally fine.

So I wanted to just kind of like pivot away from that.

It's more of a personal thing more than anything of like, I wanted to feel good about it and so I felt just better about the new.

Changing the brand to be more about like what I want to tell stories about and like go find answers to.

And yeah, it was super fun and everyone seems to have liked it.

There's been no.

I have gotten no hate emails about the name change, which is fantastic.

And if there were any, I'd be very concerned.

I was just going to say, yeah, what's wrong with that person?

Yeah, so what.

What are some of the things that you would say are the bigger pieces that you learn from.

From the science piece and now that it sounds like you're moving a lot more into the application side of, of telling the stories, but also how to.

How us golfers can implement that stuff.

What are some of the big things that you think need to change?

Maybe from instruction wise or maybe in the way that we're adapting what we see online into our own practice or training?

Yeah.

So the decade that I've kind of like been watching this space, things have changed a lot.

My favorite thing to learn about was motor learning.

I just thought it was fascinating, like, all the different aspects of it.

And that has dramatically changed over the last 10 years.

That research and stuff has really trickled down into maybe not all coaching, but the top coaches, like, get the research and they understand how to coach because of it.

And like, that is definitely changing.

So I think understanding how we learn is huge.

That, you know, we're not robots, that we, you know, errors are actually where learning happens, that we shouldn't shy away from those things and just all the different ways that, that you should consider how, how to learn.

People like Luke Benoit up here in my neck of the woods up in Minneapolis, just like, really interesting stuff of how he's applying that.

And like, there.

There's so many cool things happening in that space.

So I, I love learning about that and seeing that, how that has kind of trickled throughout.

Uh, and then I just think, like, the, the shift towards just like, more practical coaching of like, how to shoot lower scores has changed a lot of, hey, you know, just like, help me get around the golf course and not everything is just swing anymore.

It.

There's that shift happening as well, like my.

My friend Will Robbins out of California.

And you know, just like, that kind of message has definitely shifted a lot over these years, and I think it can help golfers a ton.

So those are like, kind of two things that I've seen kind of trickle down from some.

From research and like, what has kind of started to shift.

And I'm sure, sure you've seen it as well, Jeff, being in.

Being in the space for so long as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

In fact, you mentioned Will.

Will is, is one of the first coaches that I can remember interviewing where he really got myself thinking about less about, you know, the performance in the swing and.

No, what, like, what's your real goal?

Your real goal is to shoot better scores.

Right?

So if you have to take the driver out of the bag.

Take the driver out of the bag.

And, you know, like, it was just interesting to see him and now see many more coaches move in that direction of let's practically look at, you know, where are your mistakes being, being made?

How are you approaching your practice?

And this is one of the things that I know Justin has always been so good at too, is like tracking what he's practicing and doing.

And so watching some of that.

Justin, you too.

Like, what are some of the things that you've seen over the last few years that have maybe even changed the way that you approach your competitive practice?

Yeah, I think it's just like being.

Being way more efficient.

But I also just think, like, as you get better at the game and you're trying to, as Corey said, like, shoot lower scores, it's.

You just think about golf completely differently.

You think about how you're going to attack a course completely differently and you kind of don't shy away from the challenge, but also realize it's okay to make kind of mistakes out there.

You just want to avoid the double bogeys, the triple bogies, bogeys.

Right.

So I think just kind of that management of it.

And there's so many people now that have like such good practice plans and the way they kind of think about it.

But I think it's really understanding your game.

I think you have.

Honestly, I'm just a believer, like, if you want to get better, you have to be tracking what you're doing on the course.

Like, you just.

It'd be like, Jeff, we talked about the other day, if you went to the gym and didn't measure what you were doing at the gym and just expect it to get stronger and faster, like, good luck.

I think the same thing is on the course in terms of measuring, like, you know, where you're making mistakes, you know, how many doubles you're making, how many three putts.

And I think you can get like, real Matt Fitzpatrick in it and like write down a ton, but I think there's a couple, you know, high level things, like how often are you three putting right?

Like, how often are you hitting the ball out of play?

And I'm not saying fairways and even fairways, but like, if you hit it out of play, your score is going to go up, you know, so never.

I don't relate with that comment.

Yeah, he's got a 190 ball speed and he never hits it out of play.

So I think just there's like a couple of Those things that I always think, you remember when I played key school, a lot of the focus for those guys were, you know, don't make doubles, don't hit it in the water, don't three putt.

Like you're gonna play pretty good.

So yeah, I think simplifying some of that.

But you have to, I'm just a believer you have to kind of, if you really want to kind of get to that next level, I would say under a 5 handicap I think is really, really worried and you kind of start to need to look at the encore stuff.

I think you can get down from, you know, learning the game down to a five handicap pretty quick by good instruction, learning to hit the ball better, learning to hit the ball further, things like that.

But I think to really get under a five to scratch and scratch to better, it's like you need to kind of spend some time and seeing some, some trends on what's happening on the course.

So what do you track this year?

Or I guess, first question, did you, I don't know, are you playing some tournaments still?

Do you, do you get out and do something?

I still, I do, yeah.

So I, I, I got my amateur status back.

So I play, you know, the local amateur events and then I still try to play some, some national stuff.

So like the Mid AM still try to qualify for the usam, things like that.

So what do I track?

I've used a bunch of different things over the years, so I still kind of, I then have it in a beautiful excel sheet where I kind of export it all.

But.

This year I've messed around with clipped.

I don't know if you've ever seen that one.

That one's been a new one for me this year and it's kind of been interesting to kind of study that.

I like how they tackle that and then yeah, I kind of do.

Like, honestly, one of the things I track is shots inside of like 15ft.

That's birdie looks, you know, to me everyone's like, oh, like I, I had so many putts for birdie today and it's like, well, walk me through your round.

It's like, well, I had a 20 footer on one for birdie.

I had a 40 footer for two.

I'm like, any green and regulation is what they mean.

Yeah, exactly.

So I think it's important to have green regulations.

But like how many birdie looks that you actually have, I think is, is, is a stat that I always look at because.

If you're not hidden inside of 15ft, you're just not going to make that many birdies.

Not to take away, like, the.

The importance of eliminating bogeys and doubles, but that's one that I kind of look at is shaft inside of 15ft.

So you.

You put all your.

How are you tracking?

Are you manually putting it into clipped or how are you, like, getting it in there?

Yeah, so I.

Everyone always looks at my card and they're like, what are you doing?

Okay, So I essentially, like, on a scorecard or like on the pin sheet, if it's a tournament, I literally write like fairway or like left R. So like right or left miss, and then I just write how much, how far I had into the hole.

So basically having that data, you can put it into clips, you can put it into golf metrics is one I've used in the past.

Mark Brody's, I think Scott Fawcett A decade has one.

There's like a.

There's honestly a bunch of them out there.

That's kind of the one you need to understand because then you can look at, you know, obviously strokes gain data.

A lot of these apps you can look at strokes gain versus your handicap level, not just pro, but, you know, understanding what, you know, distances cause you trouble and things like that.

So I found clipped clip to be good, but there's a lot of.

A lot of good ones on there for tracking.

And then I.

Would you separate one.

What do you remember from this year?

Like, I guess I'm going to dig down this little patch, just get to the point of, like, I find it, push it.

Well, just like, where.

Where did it actually make a difference for you?

Like, what did you actually do?

Did you.

Did you see your data change?

Like, overall, like.

Yeah.

How did you use that to help you?

Yeah, so I would say the first thing was I driver.

I, like, learned.

I'm very good with the driver.

And that mainly because I don't hit the ball out of play.

And I hit it pretty far.

So that one wasn't a shocker to me.

I think what was a Surprising to me is my irons aren't as good as I think they are.

I don't.

I hit a lot of greens, but proximity isn't as tight.

So to me then it's like, okay, is my.

Am I picking the right starting line?

Am I thinking I'm going to hit a fade and I'm hitting a draw?

So I think there's some nuance there.

And then the big one for me was just kind of looking at putting.

Putting for me is I think always been something really streaky and.

How to practice that well, I'm still trying to figure out.

But I felt like I putted way better this year because I didn't three putt as often.

But then I actually didn't make as many putts, if that makes sense.

So my three punts went down, one putts stayed the same, kind of.

So trying to figure out, okay, my speed control is good.

I'm not reading greens well is kind of my takeaway from that.

And so for me, I have to practice reading greens now, which is a dad of three.

I think you can like, it's one, it's not very fun to practice, but two, it's like a little bit more nuanced, but it's really important to putt in.

It's hard to make putts if you're not.

You think it's going to break, you know, a cup and it only breaks a ball.

Right.

So.

Looking forward to kind of implementing some of the putting stuff I've learned and kind of where to practice those.

Have you seen.

I did this video with Ralph Bauer.

Have you seen Ralph stuff about.

I haven't, no.

Okay.

So it's all math based.

So you step putts off, guess the slope and then you're able to find exactly how many inches from the middle of the cup you should aim.

And it's great.

If you like math and you like to like figure out specific things here and visualize it that way, it's.

It's great.

You should.

I gotta check that one out.

Yeah, it's super good.

Ralph.

Ralph is awesome.

The way that he kind of like has the formula to like go through it all.

Is it aim point or is it a little different?

No, a little different.

You like.

So it's just a math equation.

So to find a 1% slope.

So let's say you still have to figure out like what's the slope?

Right, Right.

You step it off.

So you know your distance.

You times it by two and minus one.

So let's say it's eight steps from the hole.

Times that by two is 16, minus one, 15 inches.

So what he's saying is on a flat putt on, I think it's a 10 stamp, like 10 or 11 stamp is it's 15 inches from the middle of the cup is where you need it at a 12 inches past the hole pace.

And so then you can work from there.

You got to figure out your slopes and you got to kind of work through other stuff, you know, as.

As well to figure it out.

That's the, the basics of it.

But math your way into reading greens instead of just kind of visual.

I'm gonna try it.

I'm gonna try it.

To me, it's like, as I said, like those 15 footers, like, really, like, if I make feel pretty good about putts inside of 10ft, I think that's where like you feel good after the round, right?

It's like, okay, I didn't three putt.

I felt like I made enough of the putts inside of 10ft and now I can go home and not think about golf for the next five hours when I'm with my family.

That's the goal.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Courtney, you lost me there when you said if you like math.

And then I just stopped kind of stopped listening.

Shoot.

Thanks so much.

With all this background that you have, working with a bunch of great coaches and learning about motor learning and stuff like that, give us some insight into, let's say, the five to ten handicapper.

What are we doing wrong when it comes to then implementing some of this stuff into our practice?

What are things that you've done personally that you've been able to take the things that you've tracked or the moves that you're working on or that and actually bring it into this is helping my golf game get better.

Yeah, no, I love that.

This is just like the basics.

I would say it's almost like the things of like, if I came to see you and you'd be like, all right, what's your goal?

We're going to create a plan.

Here's your schedule, here's why.

Because this goes to this.

And so it's just like, I think it's the same thing.

It's like, and these are things that we don't do though, but like have a plan.

So like, you know, Justin was talking about his approach play, right?

Like, wasn't as good as he thought.

So it's okay, I'm going to practice that.

Specifically, what am I going to do?

I'm going to do some skill based, like outcome based games of just like not going to worry about, you know, the technique or whatnot.

That's not this practice.

We're just focused on that, identifying that, like, are we working on just skill stuff or working on technique stuff?

And just like really clarifying, like, where am I, what am I doing and what's the intent of this?

And then just trying to gamify it as, as much as you can so that you actually like, stay engaged and don't like Float off and you know, start thinking about, you know, that thing that happened earlier today and you know, eight balls later you're.

You wake up and realize you gotta go home.

Um, so like I think it's all that stuff.

So for me it's just like being super intentional about like.

Okay, so I know I have to keep this sharp.

So this is, this game.

I'm going to go do this drill.

I'm going to go do and.

Got this.

Okay, now we've worked our way through that and now I'm going to go over here and so like let's go with putting for example, right?

Like, so the things you got to work on is like can I start the ball online?

Okay, so I'm going to do something like specifically to make sure I have that skill of to be able to do that.

That's probably like a mirror drill.

Then I'm also going to take the mirror way and do some without it just to make sure I'm not reliant on my training aid.

Then it's speed control.

Like how good am I at speed control?

I'm gonna do some specific drills to make sure that I can like lock that in.

And then I need to read greens, right?

Like if I can't read greens, then none of that works.

So I'm actually gonna practice reading greens, which is a weird thing that probably none of us ever did growing up or like you know, ever practice at all.

But we all should have all the time and then like do that.

So it's kind of like if my putting sucks or like, well, realistically if I, we all should probably just do it all the time of like I need to do, you know, things that tackle each of those three parts.

And so I'm going to structure it kind of around that and work on that.

So I think it's just the, the farther I go along, the more I realize that you can kind of tear things down to its components.

And then like we need to structure what we're doing specifically to match that and then.

But just make sure we don't become over reliant on stuff and realize we have to stay athletic.

And then um, can we gamify this?

And for me it's hard to do because probably like you, Justin, we're just kind of like running out there for 45 minutes and like ah, panic practice and then like running, running home.

Um, so like, you know, it's kind of that.

But that, that's, that's what I've changed over the years and kind of learned A bit about maybe how to improve practice and how I approach things.

Being in the content creation world, there's so much out there.

But you're also talking to coaches about ways to be smarter about, you know, what you're learning, what you're doing.

Do you think we're better off with all this content out there?

Do you think we're worse off?

Or do you.

Do you have any suggestions for people to be better at filtering what they're taking in?

Good question.

I like.

It's great if you have specific challenges you're trying to figure out, like, as somebody that's doing speed stuff, like, it's so fun to be able to, you know, watch your videos and just see, like, what is the one drill.

I took one of your drills and loved it.

The one where you hold the med ball up and then you hold your leg up and then you, like, go opposite.

Yeah.

With a little disassociation.

Drill with the med ball.

What a good.

What a good, you know, thing to do before hitting golf balls.

Like, honestly, you know, so, like, seeing little things like that of, like, picking stuff up, and I think it's great if you have a specific goal of, like, where you're gonna do.

Yes.

You can lose your mind with technique videos and, you know, start trying stuff.

But at the same time.

You know what?

It's not like you're gonna get that much worse than if you're just out there hitting, doing your own thing like you've always been doing.

So I. I don't know.

Yeah, you can get confused, but.

I think.

I think folks have a lot of fun with it as well.

You can get a lot of help, but that's a hard question.

I only take softball questions, please.

No difficult questions.

Jb, any softball questions for Cordy before we wrap it up?

I mean, softball questions.

I don't know.

You put me on the spot.

I like that.

Yeah.

Well, Cordy, before we do let you go here, so Golf Don't Lie is a show all about the fact that, you know, golf connects so many different people in the world.

It doesn't matter what your profession is.

It doesn't matter what sports you played before.

But I feel like you can go out and play golf with.

With anyone and get to know them pretty well, get to know whether you could hang out with them again or.

Or want to play golf with them again.

But one thing we know is that it exposes a lot in ourselves, good, bad, and indifferent.

What's something that maybe most people don't know about you?

That You've, you've learned over the years that golf has exposed in you.

What have I learned?

Well, like, the thing that I probably use the most in life is, is just like learning the ability to be present.

This is, we're going way off everything else we've talked about.

But like, Dr. Greg Carton is a great guy, a great sports psychologist that I've got the privilege to work with over the years.

And like, he comes from kind of a mindfulness approach.

And like that concept on the golf course is really difficult.

Like, we, we play our best golf when we're able to lower the tension.