In this episode of "What's The Story," we get into the life-altering experiences of Zeeshan Laaldin, who shares his journey of navigating through grief, finding solace in faith, and the arduous path towards healing and forgiveness after a tragic car crash that reshaped his family's world.

Episode Highlights:

• A Night That Changed Everything: Zeeshan recounts the harrowing night a devastating car accident took his mother's life, severely injured his sister and niece, and set him on a trajectory of unforeseen emotional and relational challenges.
• Rooftop Revelation: A candid, raw conversation with God on a rooftop, under the blanket of night and stars, marks the beginning of Zeeshan's faith journey.
• The Power of Forgiveness: Zeeshan discusses the internal struggle and the profound realisations about the importance of letting go, forgiving, and valuing the relationships that truly matter in life.
• Rebuilding Family Bonds: The episode explores the complexities of family dynamics, the pain of estrangement, and the joy and relief found in reconciliation and forgiveness amongst siblings.
• Finding Peace in Faith: Zeeshan shares how his faith provided a foundation of strength and solace, guiding him through his darkest times and leading him towards peace and renewal.

Key Takeaways:

1. The transformative power of prayer and personal conversations with God
2. Navigating grief and the importance of allowing oneself to feel and process emotions
3. The crucial role of forgiveness in healing and moving forward
4. Strengthening family bonds through understanding, compassion, and love
5. The significance of faith in overcoming life's most challenging obstacles

Join us in this emotional rollercoaster of an episode as Zeeshan Laaldin bravely shares his heart-wrenching yet inspiring story, offering insights and hope to anyone going through similar trials. Whether you're dealing with grief, seeking forgiveness, or looking to strengthen your faith and family relationships, this episode shines a light on the path to peace and the enduring power of love.

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And now, let's meet your host and our special guest for today.

Welcome to What's The Story today.

I am chatting with Zeeshan Laaldin, who is actually the infamous maybe

notorious is maybe a better word brother of Sadaf Beynon, who is part

of the What's The Story team here.

You will have heard her interviewing people.

And in fact, her story is also part of the archives.

So this Zeeshan is the first time that we've had a brother and sister.

On the show, which I'm excited about because frankly, we just want you

here to spill the beans about Sadaf.

So we're going to get into all of that.

It's worth saying that he lives in Sydney, Australia with his

wife, Jessica and three kids.

He is the founder of One To Another, which is a relief and development organization

working in Pakistan and now also works for Anglican Aid in Sidney, Australia.

It is late in the day for you.

So I'm aware of the time zone difference, but thanks for joining us from, halfway

around the world from Sidney, one of the most amazing cities on the planet.

I love Sidney.

But it's great to have you, man.

How are you doing

Yeah.

Good.

Thanks.

It's nice to be here.

even this late at night?

Yep.

So it's true to say Zeeshan, that Matt your beautiful

sister set you up for this, didn't she?

a hundred percent.

She pushed me hard into it.

Wasn't really a nudge, it was more of a do it.

But yeah, no I'm grateful because I did listen to her one and it was great.

Yeah, I'm excited.

Good man, it's good to have you here.

And how long have you been living in Australia?

How long have you been in the land down under?

Just over two years now.

Okay, how are you finding it in Sydney?

Yeah it's a really, it's a fun city.

It's beautiful.

We really enjoyed it.

The kids have really adjusted well.

Work is great.

Lots of cricket.

Yeah it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful.

Absolutely, it's been a really great change for us.

Yeah.

Did you find it hard?

Because you moved over to Sydney from Pakistan, right?

Where you'd obviously lived a fair chunk of your life to be fair.

Now, did you find the move hard?

Was it a culture shock or was it actually pretty straightforward?

No, I think it was, there was a lot of things that I

personally had to deal with, but I do, I would say that I was I guess because

I was prepared for it being a new thing.

experience.

I think I adjusted pretty well.

On the other hand, my wife, who is Australian, but has hardly lived here in

her mind, she thought she was coming home.

But yeah, I think she's had to struggle more than the kids and myself.

To adjust back well for her to adjust back to life here so yeah it's been

interesting I think the kids adjusting and getting you know their lives together with

school and all the extracurricular stuff they do I think because that happened so

seamlessly I think that and allowed me to also be able to adjust a lot better than

I actually than I expected to so yeah.

No doubt.

But it's interesting you say that Jessica, your wife, found it almost harder to

adjust going back home than you guys did going to a new country in a lot of ways.

Yeah, I think for her, it was, she had expectations which maybe

weren't realistic after so many years abroad, whereas we came with just a,

let's see what happens kind of attitude,

with shorts and a t shirt, some flip flops and away you go, right?

And a subscription to the cricket.

And for those of you listening outside of the the empire or the former empire,

cricket is one of those sports where it's a bit like baseball in a lot of ways.

There's you either like it or you don't.

I don't think there's any in between you, if you like it, you really like it.

and I really like it.

No doubt.

Did you grow up playing cricket?

Was that all part of the deal or was that the sport that you had, you did?

No, I actually didn't.

I went to a kind of a missionary school in kind of the foothills of the Himalayas and

we didn't actually play cricket at school.

For me, cricket was very much it was more about.

The fact that it represented Pakistan for me and it gave me an identity in that.

And so whenever there was a, a series against some other country

like that was the passion.

That's where the passion came from.

And I actually, for a long time, preferred watching it over playing it.

It's only now that my son plays it that and I get to play in organized

cricket here in Australia that it's actually, something that I like to do.

But from the start, it was more.

Just following it and following Pakistan and being obsessed with it and not eating

for days if we lost India or something.

Oh really?

Wow.

that's a bit extreme.

Yeah, a little bit extreme.

I'm a big I'm a big Liverpool football club fan.

So I follow Liverpool.

We're doing a time of recording.

We're top of the league.

When this comes out, who knows?

But we're doing well.

So I'm a big, I'm a, I do follow football.

So I get the, it's good to follow a sport thing.

And I understand from a national point of view, there are countries are

good at certain things, aren't they?

England likes to pretend it's good at everything.

We have a team for everything which it really isn't, if the England

football team is playing, I'm there.

If I tend to not get involved with cricket unless it is like the World Cup

kind of England's playing and especially New Zealand and more so Pakistan, I

suppose more recently because Sadaf's in the office and if Pakistan are playing

the crickets on and all that sort of stuff, so that they're quite fun.

So I I totally get that.

They're eating for day, not eating for days though.

I know.

that was a bit of a stretch, but you get what

Yeah, I do.

Yeah.

No, some people take it very seriously.

So you grew up in the foothills of the Himalayas, which just

sounds very romantic and almost like Bear Grylls dream, isn't it?

It's I'm at the foothills of the Himalayas guys, and I can just see

the sort of the adventure calling.

Was it really like that?

Absolutely.

On a clear day, we could see some of the highest peaks in the world so yeah.

Yeah, it was amazing.

I didn't appreciate it as much when I was there growing up, but as I've grown

older and revisited and seen what there was and looking back at, the childhood

that I had, like I, yeah, I'm really blessed to have had that experience.

Yeah, no doubt.

So did you ever get into the climbing of the mountains or were you just

firmly at the bottom and that's fine?

I was very much happy to be in the plains while I was at school,

but yeah, no, I was never really into trekking and hiking and stuff like that.

But just a couple of years ago, I went up as far north as I've been

with a bunch of friends before we left Pakistan, actually it was amazing.

That, the valley where we were in was higher than where my school

was, and our school was at 7, 000 feet it's just, it's amazing.

It's absolutely amazing.

Yeah.

Sadaf raves about that sort of the part of the world

and it's definitely on my bucket list of places to go and view and just be

in awe of those sort of landscapes.

I find that when I go to those quite not quite the same, near here, we have

Snowdonia, we have the Lake District, and just the open spans with the rolling

hills, you'd, for me, you just, I feel in those spaces, the closest to God.

I don't know why, it's that element of nature where you just

feel the element of the divine.

Do you know what I mean?

I don't know if you guys had that growing up, but yeah, I

can see why it's quite stunning.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think, I recall standing under one of the big mountains and just looking up

like we're on the road right below it.

And it just, it's just really amazing.

Like it really puts a lot of things into perspective.

And yeah, it does.

I get what you mean about, seeing the power of God and His majesty in that.

Absolutely.

yeah, totally.

So you went to a ministry, a missionary school in the foothills of the Himalayas.

There's a calling right there.

Would you like to go teach in a missionary school in the foothill of the Himalayas?

It feels like it's up there with, would you like to go teach in a missionary

school that's in the Maldives, it's just this beautiful part of the world.

What was it like?

Is that where you became a Christian growing up in that school?

Was that we know Sadaf grew up with it within a Christian family, but for

those that haven't heard that show, maybe just tell your story a little

bit, what you, the family growing up, your own sort of journey to faith.

yeah yeah, as Sadaf has probably mentioned grew up in a Christian

home went to this missionary school.

I went since, pretty much since preschool I didn't know anything else, whereas I

think my sisters experienced a bit of Pakistani schools at some stage, so I knew

all the Sunday School stories, I'd grown up with that, I knew all the songs, and

and had that upbringing at home as well as in school, as well as in dorm life.

So like it was, and for me looking back at that time, I'm so so grateful to God

for the opportunities that He blessed me with, because Yeah, I think it's made

me who I am today, and without that, I don't think, I would be where I am.

But yeah, so I just went through school for many years thinking that

I was a Christian, and I knew so much about, I even I was actually

pretty good at memorizing scripture.

I could memorize chapters and chapters of it in school, but and so I had that in

me and, but it wasn't until the beginning of my senior year 12, that where a lot of

my good friends had graduated and their families were leaving Pakistan and they

were going back to their home countries.

And it was strange because, with some of them you'd spent You know, 12, 13

years with them in this little bubble.

And they were almost like your brothers.

Yeah.

and so all of a sudden they're leaving and

it's like, , what do you do?

And it was really hard for me to see some of them leave and not knowing,

if we'd ever meet again or what.

So it was, it, looking back it seemed, maybe it was a bit over

the top, but at the time I really.

I just was like, I don't know how to function.

And so I was going through this pretty low time in my life and year

12 had started after a bit of a break and just wasn't feeling it.

Didn't want to be there.

It was just like stuck in the past, and yeah, and I I remember my dad calling and

saying, not that he knew, I don't think he was aware of any of this, but he just

said, look, there's a, one of the old missionary ladies that used to work at

the hospital where I grew up with my dad, where he was the director was visiting

again, and her name was Agnes Hislop.

And

That's a great

name

he's what?

It's a very good, was she English?

Because it sounds like quintessentially English, that name.

Yeah, she was English.

And so yeah, for some reason, I just, it was quite a ways away, and I had to,

I didn't have a car or anything, I was in, in boarding at the time, and I had

a bike, mountain bike, so I got on my mountain bike, and I went up and met her,

and I don't know, just, I started chatting about getting quite into a lot of detail

about my personal life and where I was at.

And it was just incredible how I was just able to just let so much out.

And I remember her saying, you should try sharing all this with God.

And I was like, but he already knows it.

It's in my heart.

He knows, he can read my mind or whatever.

But yeah, so I finished up with her and I went back and those words just kept

bothering me about sharing it with God.

And so I went up onto the roof of our dorm and sat on top of these massive metal

water tanks, and it was a clear evening.

I could see all the stars and like the tree line in the dark.

And yeah, I just, I remember it very clearly.

And.

I probably spent, I don't know, maybe an hour, just under an hour, just sharing

everything, just speaking to God in a way I had never had in the past.

It wasn't like this official prayer, it was just me talking to God.

And I think that was the beginning of relationship with God.

And I think all those years of that foundation that had been there,

like I knew what he was, but I don't think I fully understood

What it meant to be in a relationship with him.

And so I think that's where it started.

And I just felt.

A sense of peace after that conversation with God and within a few weeks,

like I felt my attitude towards where I was at the time change.

I felt much lighter, much happier.

I started to enjoy those that were around me instead of avoiding them and whatnot.

And yeah, and I think that was the first time I experienced God

working in my life in a personal way.

And that's when I realized that, there is, yeah, there's something that

I've been missing all these years.

This is what it's really about.

And so I think that was the beginning of my personal journey with Jesus.

That's cool, man, it's just that whole how old,

again, were you at this point?

17,

Yeah, so I was about 18 when I became a Christian, and just this

whole idea of, we use this phrase a lot in church, it's a very churchy phrase

actually, pouring your heart out to God.

In the sense of just talking to God in a very real, authentic way and actually

being comfortable with that is one of those things that I think surprises people

that they can do, and so here you are 17, 18, just pouring out your heart to God.

I'm curious, did God say anything back or was it just a case of,

I just, I'm just going for this?

Yeah, I don't think I felt him speaking back in

that sense to me at that moment.

But when I saw things change just even in my own mind, the way I

was looking at life, I knew it was something that wasn't of me.

It was something that I always put back to that.

moment in that conversation that, so it wasn't, I wouldn't say that

it was that clear at the time, but I always remember when something

happened and I was like, what?

That's crazy.

That shouldn't happen.

I would, I'd always take it back to that moment where I'd

had that conversation with God.

So I knew it was significant for me and at that time.

And I, yeah, I knew it was special.

I wouldn't say I heard his voice at that time.

It's interesting though, isn't it?

But it's the moment that you pinpoint where you go.

No.

This is where it changed and kickstarted for me.

And actually what I'm hearing is that the moment of change for you is not

from memorizing scriptural, though.

It's obviously very good thing to do, especially if you're

one of my children listening.

It's obviously very good to read the Bible and remember it.

It wasn't to do with that, it was more to just doing, or more to do with just

being able to be real with God and to speak to him in that kind of way

and it transformed things for you.

That's what I'm hearing, it was, and it's interesting you're

using this word relationship.

So I'm in a relationship with God rather than just knowing about God.

And I think many Christians would use that phraseology to try and

explain, I suppose to try and explain.

Why or what it is they think or feel about God, why it's different.

I don't just know about God, I feel like I know him now and I know he's always

known me but I feel like he now knows me.

It's that kind of thing, isn't it?

Yeah, I think that's right.

I feel like that was because that was just the beginning.

There was so much more that happened and to this day happens that learning

and that experiencing God and understanding him and growing in

my faith is, it's still happening.

But like you said, that moment where it went from, just knowing of him to actually

experience him I think that was the time,

Fascinating.

I'm reminded of the prayer, the Apostle Paul prays.

This prayer in the Bible is recorded, I think, in the book of

Ephesians where he says I no, I think it's in the book of Romans.

I pray you will know the length, the breadth, the depth, the height of God.

I pray that you will know this.

And it.

And when you look at the language, it's not knowledge

just from, reading it in a book.

It's like an experiential knowledge as well.

It's like I, it's like I can talk about Sharon and I can talk

about how I know she loves me.

Not because she wrote it down in a Valentine's card, although that's just

very nice, we're coming up to Valentine's Day but because I've experienced.

That love every day since we've been married.

And there's that joint thing, isn't there?

And yeah, really powerful, man, really powerful.

So let's talk about challenges then.

So you've been walking with God for a little while.

And you're, we're talking about this relationship with God.

You were living in Pakistan.

You have this relief organization over there, which you're heading up.

You're.

You're grown in your faith, your wife's a Christian, I mean I know the story a

little bit but I guess, spoiler alert, it's not all sunshine and rainbows is it?

There are things which you then have to face and deal with.

So what are some of the big challenges that you've personally faced

where, or that you face as a family that God's brought you through?

I'm curious to know what are some of the things there?

Yeah, I think yeah, I think the biggest challenge that

I had to go through with my family that includes my sisters and my wife

and kids was my dad being diagnosed with cancer, stage four cancer.

Back in 2014, and so we're just as a family trying to cope with this.

I was the only one in Pakistan in terms of my siblings at the time.

And so when the diagnosis came in , my three sisters could started

to come back and I think no, Sheen and Sadaf were back in the country,

and I had actually gone because the international airport at the time was

about a five, six hour drive away, and

Oh

someone would've to go pick them up and bring them back.

And so I'd done that for those two sisters.

And the flights randomly arrive at two in the morning for some reason.

So you're very thankful for the 10 hour drive

in the middle of the night.

Yeah.

Appreciate that.

yeah.

The truth is, for both of them, I, we drove back, arrived, got home at 6 in the

morning probably wasn't the best, smartest thing to do, but, just wanted to get

back, and with my third sister arriving.

My mom decided she wanted to go and she'd take the driver and and yeah she went, I

remember I had lunch with her before she left, and yeah, I remember saying Goodbye

and see you tomorrow, type of thing.

And she went off to pick up my sister and yeah.

I don't know, there was just something inside me that said, call her and

find out if the driver's had a rest.

I don't know, something wasn't right.

And so I called her at 8 or 9 p.

m.

and I said, you're going to be going to the airport soon maybe I think they had

to go at 11 or 12 and I was like, has the driver had a rest, are you driving back?

And she's yeah, he had a big rest and we'll leave in a couple hours and

we'll pick her up and we'll come home.

I went to bed but wasn't really asleep and at 4:33 a.

m.

I got a call from the driver and yeah, I just, I figured out quite quickly

what had happened and it wasn't really speaking but I could hear and didn't know.

How bad it was, I tried to ask him, what's happening.

It was a big accident.

And I can just, I could hear my mom and my sister in the back it's tough

to talk about because I still it's very clear in my mind, but just the way

they were crying was, it was painful.

It just got my mind thinking because there was three little kids in the car.

My sister's kids were there too.

And so it's the middle of the night, you don't know what's going to happen.

And one of my best friends who I grew up with in Pakistan

he was, his name is Haroon.

He lived above me.

And we worked together at one to another at that time.

And I went out, woke him up and I was like, this has happened.

I don't even know where they are, but I know they're.

Between here and Lahore.

So let's go.

And he didn't say anything within 15 minutes of receiving that call.

We were in the car.

I could go into a lot of detail, but basically my mom

passed away in that car crash.

My sister was very badly injured.

And I think it's still dealing with some of those injuries today.

Her daughter, eldest daughter was also very injured, broke both her

legs at her forehead opened up and it was just, it was pretty bad.

And so I was in Lahore with them and Sheen and Sadaf and my dad were

in Multan when all this happened.

And so it was just a really difficult time and I can't express the feelings

that were, it was just overwhelming.

I don't think I could even process at the time what I was going through, but it was.

It was absolutely strange, surreal to be there and looking

at, all this devastation.

And I had a difficult choice to make whether to go back with

my mom's buddy or stay and be there for my sister and her kids.

And I was like, if my niece wakes up.

She's not going to know who's, she might recognize me, but she

won't recognize anyone else.

And so I think that was the thing that, that kept me in Lahore at the hospital.

So yeah, I think, and then we went through, yeah, that was difficult

obviously for my wife and our kids were little at the time, but.

Yeah, it was wasn't an easy time.

And then, a year later, my father passed away, and my sisters had obviously gone

back to their lives in Canada and the UK and whatnot, and obviously were talking

to my dad every single day, but just weren't there physically and my dad,

a year, he wasn't supposed to live as long as he did in the end, but he was

he was with us for another year after my mom passed, and it was, amazing.

to have that time with him.

And my wife and I had then moved back into his home after my mom passed so that we

could be there and care for him and all.

And yeah, so after my dad passed away oh, my sisters had all come back and

he passed away with all of us there.

But the last little while leading up to his death was pretty, pretty awful.

I think there was a clash of kind of cultures, in terms of palliative care.

The Pakistani way is very, um, like you do everything you

can to help them in that time.

If they can't eat, then you basically force them to eat.

Whereas my sisters were coming from a much more a much more medical

perspective, or a westernized perspective of that whole thing.

And I think those two cultures clashed and it wasn't pretty.

And I was sandwiched in between but having been with dad and saw his love for his

siblings and seeing the way that they had cared for him, I just gravitated

towards that and created a wedge I think.

between myself and my sisters.

And it wasn't, I don't think it was done, it was just, it just happened.

It wasn't, I didn't think through it properly, but I guess the

aftermath was that dad passed away.

And I think within a week, 10 days, I think my sisters went back.

We didn't part well at all.

They were hurt.

I was hurt.

I don't think for a long time.

I don't even, I don't even know, but I think for a long time.

I didn't know if I'd even grieved properly for that, because

of all this external stuff.

And so you, as a Christian, you know that you're, you'll

see your parents again one day.

They're believers.

There's that confidence you have.

And as a Christian, I think it, death is, has a different meaning.

Like it hurts, obviously, because they're physically not with you,

but it's not the end, it's not the end of that relationship.

To have your sisters who were like mothers to me, honestly, and still are, to

lose mom, dad, and then in a way them, but they're alive was really difficult.

My wife, um, she felt.

My pain, I think more than anyone else.

But yeah, I think that was probably the hardest thing that I've had to go through.

And it wasn't just for a few months it lasted for maybe three or

four years, and it was difficult.

I wanted a relationship with them.

I think maybe they thought I didn't.

It was just, it was complicated.

And yeah, but I think going back to that topic of relationship which I think is

it keeps coming back to me in my life.

The importance of it, I think thankfully as a, Believer in Jesus,

and as my sisters were, are still also believers of, in Jesus, I think

we were able to, forgive each other.

And I think that was, that experience I haven't seen Sadaf since this event.

I haven't seen her for 10 years, physically been in the

same space with her, yeah.

But, I got the opportunity to meet two of my sisters and I had an opportunity

to spend a lot of time hashing out some of these things with her.

And I think for me, that was another time where I felt God's presence.

There were things that were discussed and things that I wanted to yell at

them, in those moments of conversations that we had, but something held me back.

And I really, I felt for the first time in my life.

I felt the Holy Spirit in the, in those moments.

And to be able to spend a week in Canada with them to walk away

knowing that we're good, we love each other, we forgive each other was.

Yeah yeah, I'm just so grateful to them for, one, for forgiving me.

And yeah, cause absolutely said and did many stupid things, but

yeah, just it all comes down to Jesus knowing Him and being able to

forgive because He forgave us, right?

Amen.

Firstly, thank you for sharing.

I said, if to lose your mum like that, obviously your sisters and your

sister and your nieces get injured.

And then all because your dad's been diagnosed with cancer, everyone's

flying in to see him and you it's a horror story in a lot of ways, and it

and I'm listening to you talk about it.

And then in the midst of that, to have this sort of I don't know if I'd use

the word breakdown, but this sort of fallout, with your sisters as well.

And then you talk about forgiveness, as in you forgave them and they forgave

you and, spoiler alert, you're obviously getting on well with your sisters now

and Sadaf still feels the need to boss you around quite a lot, I would imagine.

And everything's back how it was in a lot of ways.

Forgiveness isn't always easy and forgiveness is not always straightforward.

It can be quite messy, but I think it's one of those things, which is a sort of a

key thing to the Christian faith, right?

And there are lots of benefits that come with forgiveness.

It's always hard to do, but when you feel like you've forgiven somebody,

actually, I think you tend to feel an awful lot better about life.

Just walk us through that process for you guys.

What was, what did forgiveness look like?

How did you have to wrestle with that?

I think, after dad died and my sisters left, I went through

probably the darkest period of my life.

I couldn't sleep without drinking a lot.

For three months I lost the plot completely.

Without Jess I don't know, yeah, probably, it may have ended differently, but she

was that rock, I think, that I needed, and that person that kept pointing me to God.

So yeah, I'm super grateful for her and the role that she's played, my life.

But, I think forgiveness, the it was weird, because we weren't in the same

country, I wasn't able to walk over to their house, knock, I want to talk,

it wasn't like that, and getting the courage to even connect on a video call

because you're not sure what they're thinking, there's no communication at

all and so it took a really long time to get to that place, but I knew from

the very beginning that there has to be.

Resolution of some sort and I had to be able to forgive and be forgiven.

Otherwise I wasn't going to last.

I don't think I would have been able to survive.

But forgiveness, I think was.

is very much an internal

for me, I had to come up, come to a place where I was like, you know what

matters more me being able to let go of the hurt that I feel I've been through

and then having a relationship with my sisters what meant more, and that meant

a lot more, that meant everything to me and so I think part of those three or

four years were me I would go through these angry phases of I'd stay up in bed

and I'd have this 10 minute monologue that I was, like, just shouting at them

and then there would be times when I'd just be, like, no that doesn't, that's

not right, and so it took a long time.

When and I actually went to Canada to a friend's wedding.

I didn't go to visit them.

I went somewhere else and I was like, Hey, I'm coming.

Would you mind if I dropped by kind of thing?

And obviously their arms were wide open, but it wasn't until we were physically

together that I think being physically together allowed the forgiveness

process to happen more Easily, you know, cause you're able to see expressions

and feel emotion and it's real.

So I'm really glad that it didn't happen over a video call or, I

think it was really necessary for the degree of pain that I was in to

have it, that much more real to be there in person to experience that.

And it was, I felt so much lighter.

I felt complete joy.

Leaving Canada after that, like I just, it was just totally different.

And yeah, I think there's a big difference between that and reconciliation.

I think that is the different thing.

I think it comes later, but, and that's something, I think that's what

we're all in my mind, that's what I'm working through right now with them.

That takes time.

yeah, oh powerful, man I'm curious if I

can just rewind just slightly.

You said for three months, you were in quite a dark place drinking quite a lot.

How is Jessica in all of this?

This is your, in one sense she's married into your family, these are your sisters

this is your mum, this is your dad, life is not what it was the man that

she married is going through an insanely hard time, probably doing stuff that

she, if you were to ask her, I don't know, I don't want to put words in her

mouth, but I know if you were to ask my wife, she would not approve of me

drinking heavily, that's for dang sure.

And so I'm curious, how did she deal with all of this?

Yeah.

I think she was hurt as well.

It wasn't, I think it, it wasn't just me that was, that had.

Felt the pain of some of the stuff that went on.

She was very much next to me and was hurt in her own ways.

And equally was the instigator of hurt and pain for them.

It wasn't just a one.

In a sense, because she knew, she felt similar things.

I think she was able to really know what I felt.

But I think she being slightly outside of it was able to

control it better than I could.

And so I think, yeah, I think she, she was, yeah, she just, for me, I think she

being able to talk to her and it wasn't, I think in times like that, if you have

someone that keeps reinforcing what negative thoughts you're having which

is in a way, which is what you want, cause you want to feel like you're right.

But she didn't do that even though she was also feeling that pain.

And so I think having, there were moments when she would agree with me and was just

as angry as I was, but in the long run, I think she, she was able to keep it.

Much more, real and was able to help me see that a lot more.

Yeah.

Sounds like a remarkable lady.

Yeah.

She is

Yeah, funny, isn't it?

I remember Smith Wigglesworth, the old preacher, he wrote, I remember this quote

he said about his wife, I think she was called Polly, yes, he said everything

I am under God, I owe to my dear wife, Polly, and I think the longer I'm

married, The more I realize he's right.

You know what I mean?

That the longer I live, the more I realize everything I am under God.

I owe to my dear wife who, who has put it with a lot and seen me through a lot

of things and has been an amazing person.

What's also interesting listening to you talk is just how close you were as a

family to your sisters, because I know, I don't know whether it's a Western

thing, whether this again is a cultural thing, whether you just happen to be

this way because you were living where you were in the situation you were.

Sometimes people are close to their siblings, so some people listening to this

will will feel the pain of actually what it's like to be separated or to have this

sort of acrimony I suppose between you.

But some people might be listening going, I don't, I'm just not, I'm not

like close to my brother or my sister,

yeah, I think for us, I mean for me, I'm four years younger

than and so I'm youngest by quite a ways and I think I was always spoiled by

them and my parents, I was the only boy.

And boys have, they have a much higher value in Pakistan for families,

which wasn't the case in our home.

But no, I, yeah, I think.

And then, because I was in boarding I really only saw my mom and dad

for maybe four months of the year, or three, three months of the year.

The rest of the time I was in boarding, and I remember, you know, from the age of

six or seven to be alone, away from your parents and every time I was homesick

or there was any problems, it was always those three, one of them, or all of

them, who would be by my bed comforting me, to help me get to sleep or whatever.

So it's always been, it was always close.

It was more than a normal relationship that you would have with your siblings

because I needed them like I would need my mother as a child, thankfully they, I

think they, yeah, they love me in that way as well, and yeah, it was always a very, I

always looked up to them, still do have a huge amount of respect and love for them.

And yeah, whatever they said, I would do, like this girl, okay, wear your

clothes like this, okay, let us cut your hair, okay, whatever it was,

Yeah.

I just, yeah, I just love them and, yeah, so I think our

circumstances, the way we grew up, maybe exaggerated it a bit more, but yeah very

close, and not just us our cousins super close people look at us as cousins, and

be like, this is weird, it's not normal.

But I think that, that came, that loving like that came from my

oldest sister, from me anyway.

I saw the way she loved everyone and I liked it, and I wanted to be like that,

Wow.

It's powerful, man.

And it's great that you had that, and I want it for my own kids that they actually

have strong relationships with each other.

And it's nice when you see it.

Ironically, it wasn't until I moved out that I started to get

on really well with my brother.

When we were both living at home, we would fight like cats and dogs.

But yeah, interesting.

Interesting.

What's the

sure,

Go on.

I was just going to say, I'm sure if you asked Sadaf about her

relationship with her other two sisters, it'd probably be the same, they probably

got closer when they were further apart.

I was so much younger that it was different for me, but I'm sure

they had their I know they had their dramas growing up as kids.

Oh, there's no doubt.

Three girls are going to have their dramas, but I, she always

speaks very fondly of her family.

And you go, this is really cool that you guys were so close.

Out of all of this, out of all the stuff you've gone through both as a

family, in your sort of own walk with life what's your one lesson if you

had, that God taught you over this?

I think, understanding the value of relationships that are

in your life I think, and this is not, I guess my experience is to a certain

extent, but I've felt, I've always felt, That relationships matter, I think,

maybe to my friends or my siblings, maybe I think of them too much

maybe.

It's always been like that from when I was a young kid and I always wanted to,

have, put my all into the relationships that were around me and yeah, it probably

wasn't healthy everywhere, but I think for me, that has been something that as,

all having experienced all this stuff with my sisters and I've really grown to

value the relationships that God has put me in and I think it comes from it comes

The little that I've thought about it I think it comes from the fact that God

created us to be in his image and I think in that could mean a lot of things but I

think in one sense it's that relationship and, he, from beginning creation, he's

ultimately wants a relationship with us.

And, through sin and all that kind of got messed up and then he had a plan

and that was Jesus and we have to have a relationship with Jesus to be saved.

And it's so key in my mind, it's just so plain and simple that.

That's such an important part to this walk and I think the relationships

that we have we choose some and we choose, we don't choose others.

We don't choose our family but whatever it is whatever those relationships are

in this moment, in this time, that circle that's around you, they're all in some

way mirroring my relationship with God.

They're challenging me in different ways, they're, at the end of the day,

every relationship that I interact with is an opportunity for me as a

person to become more Christ like.

Whether that's me with my son whether it's with my wife, with, my sisters, or some

friend, or a colleague at work, or some uncle that, is old, doesn't matter they're

in my life for a reason and As a Christian it's my responsibility to give it my all,

not for everything, and within reason, if that makes sense, but they're all there

for me to learn from and to become yeah to learn the characteristics that, that

that Jesus has and that I need in my life.

I'm aware of time.

I have so many more questions.

Thank you so much, man, for coming on and sharing your heart and just really great

to connect with you and, great family.

Yeah, great heritage by the sounds of it.

And I look forward to meeting your mum and dad one day because I

really look forward to meeting them.

I think they're amazing people given the family which they have.

If people want to reach out to you, if they want to find out more, maybe

about the project in Pakistan, the projects, the stuff that you're

doing in Sydney, if they just want to connect, what's the best way to do that?

Probably email.

Okay.

Yeah.

We will make sure that your email is linked in the show notes.

Or a bit.

Yeah rather than spill it out on the air, we'll definitely make

sure it's in the show notes.

But so do check that out if you want to reach out, but yeah, listen, but

thank you so much for coming on.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

It's been a pleasure.

And just like that, we've reached the end of

another fascinating conversation.

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