What is commercial design? And how can it help you sell more of your products?

Today my guest on the podcast is Lucianne Soley of Soley Creative. Soley Creative empowers people and brands to be seen, heard, and understood through commercial visual communication and brand guardianship. They build brands that thrive in the present and the future. 

Lucianne joins me to explain what commercial design is and how it can help you as a product creator sell more. We discuss the importance of making sure that everything that you produce visually has a purpose and functions well, whether that's getting people in your email list, or making sales on your website. Lucianne also shares some valuable insights into customer profiles and behaviours learnt from her years of experience supporting major household brand names. 

It’s a fascinating topic that we’ve never covered before, and I am sure you will come away with lots of ideas for this you can do to tweak and improve the performance of your website, emails, social media and more. 

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Welcome to the Bring Your Product Idea to Life podcast.

2

This is the podcast for you if

you're getting started selling

3

products, or if you'd like to

create your own product to sell.

4

I'm Vicki Weinberg, a product

creation coach and Amazon expert.

5

Every week I share friendly, practical

advice, as well as inspirational

6

stories from small businesses.

7

Let's get started.

8

podcast, I'm talking to Lucianne

Soley from Soley Creative.

9

Soley Creative empowers people

and brands to be seen, heard, and

10

understood through commercial visual

communication and brand guardianship.

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They build brands that thrive

in the present and the future.

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So we've talked about branding on

the podcast before, but the reason

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I wanted to invite Lucianne along

is that she talks about branding

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and also about commercial design.

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So basically what this means, and

Lucianne will explain it much more

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succinctly than I do, is making sure

that everything that you produce visually

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has a purpose and meets the purpose,

whether that's getting people in your

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email list, whether that's making sales.

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And she talks a lot about the

functionality of your design and

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how well the assets that you create

help to actually sell your products.

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I'm completely underselling this episode.

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It was a fascinating talk on a topic

that I've never really heard spoken

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about or even considered myself.

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And, um, I'm not doing it any justice.

25

So I would love now to

introduce you to Lucianne.

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So,

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hi, thank you so much for being here.

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Lucianne Soley: Thank you for having me.

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I'm really excited.

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Vicki Weinberg: So can we start with

you please giving an introduction to

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yourself, your business and what you do?

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Lucianne Soley: Yeah, sure.

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So I'm Lucianne um, I run a business

called Soley Creative and we're a small

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design studio based in South London.

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And we create branding, websites, email,

social media, essentially any kind

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of visual communications that a small

business or medium sized business might

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need to amplify their commerciality.

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Vicki Weinberg: Thank you so much.

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And I've invited you here today

to talk about commercial design.

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So before anyone thinks that we've

already spoken about branding, this is

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sort of a bit more than just branding.

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But before we get into that, Lucianne,

I would love to hear a little bit more

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about your background and how you got

to where you are now, if that's okay.

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Lucianne Soley: Yeah, definitely.

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So my background is in

the fashion industry.

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Um, but actually my story

kind of starts at university.

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So I did a fashion promotion and

communications degree, um, with an edge

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on leaning into graphic design, really.

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Um, and when it came to my final

year, I really was considering

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what I wanted to do next.

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And most of my year group took up doing

women's wear and focused fashion products.

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So whether that was magazines or,

um, apps and things like that.

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Um, now my dissertation was about,

we were in a recession at the time,

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which is probably apt for now.

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Um, but it was about how couture

as a very expensive investment

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survives in a recession.

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Um, cause we never really

hear about huge fashion houses

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going under during recession.

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Um, and that led me into consumer

psychology, why people buy.

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And interestingly, it was mostly focused

or my paper was mostly focused around men.

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And in that particular recession, Vivian

Westwood had opened a men's only store

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in the heart of Mayfair, which I found

fascinating because I was drawn to the

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idea that men are shopping, um, more

expensive products in a time where they

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might be actually worried about their

income, their money, what's going to

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happen in the future of their careers.

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Um, so.

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It kind of piqued my interest into

men's consumer psychology and I ended

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up leaving university and going off

to work at Topman, um, which was

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fast fashion, obviously completely

different to Vivienne Westwood.

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Um, but I was really interested in men,

the men's side of the fashion industry.

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And it's something I hadn't really

explored until that last year.

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Um, so yeah, fast forward, I've got my job

at Topman and I'm working on e commerce.

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So my job there was to translate the

print designers work and for all the

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window displays, like leaflets, flyers,

all of those things, uh, into online

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experiences with the team there.

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So I was, um, junior member of

the team and working on The, like,

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original, um, email tool was, I

think, gmail or something, which,

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which we've come a lot further on

from since those days, um, and we had

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a bespoke, uh, CMS, uh, called ECMC.

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So it was all learning on job.

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Um, and then after a couple of years,

I moved over to the opposite end of the

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fashion street at La Perla, uh, selling

24 karat gold bustiers and bras, um, as

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well as focusing on launching their men's

line, um, during the pity show that year.

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After that, I went on to Monica

Vinader, which is a, um, Demi fine

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jewelry company, and their focus really

is on personalization of jewelry.

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Uh, so stacking, styling,

engraving, all of those things.

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And, um, my real kind of focus there was

redesigning the website into something

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fully responsive so that any device you

looked at, it would look like the same

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website, which was quite new at the time.

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And we went about that in a way

that would help future proof the

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business by going completely modular.

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So each row of the website became a

row that you could use on any other

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page across the website, which made it

super user friendly for all of our team.

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Um, and we also integrated

a engraving tool.

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within our website that then spoke to

the machines at the depo where everything

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was packed and wrapped um to tell the

machines what engraving would go on what

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order which obviously made things a whole

lot easier and smoother logistically

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um so that was really exciting a bit

different and and I actually ventured

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into the print space during that time

so events dinners, uh, store design.

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Um, so light boxes in store

window displays, that kind of

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thing, which I absolutely loved.

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And then finally, in my in house

journey, I went to Kurt Geiger.

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Um, so at group level, Kurt Geiger,

I've got a lot of brands, um, they own

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Carvela, they own licenses for Steve

Madden now, Vince Camuto, Nine West.

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Um, as well as Carvela, and their

kinda miss KG, mini miss KG.

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So, um, we became like a mini agency in

house, um, serving all of those brands

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and kind of anything the business needed

from email design to website updates.

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to, like I said before, in

store experiences and events.

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And yeah, at the end of 2019, I was

actually made redundant, um, which was,

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uh, had a really interesting phone call

with my best friend, called her, said what

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had happened, and she went, well that's

brilliant, you can be, be freelance now,

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that's what you've always wanted to do.

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I was like, oh, yeah, that's a

really good point, and completely

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changed my, like, um, brain and

attitude towards the redundancy.

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So I became really, really excited

about what I could do next.

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And since then, um, I've been

freelancing and during, um,

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pandemic obviously was when our

business was really getting started.

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So kind of fortunately I hadn't

experienced much time before lockdowns

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before the pandemic, and it meant that.

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This was all I really knew.

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And so I had to make it

work with what I had.

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Um, and my husband actually at the time

was doing an MBA and he told me that there

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was a hundred thousand new incorporations

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And that was my sweet spot.

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Spot helping new businesses.

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So it was brilliant.

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We were getting phone calls from people

saying, Oh, hi, I'm an estate agent, but

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obviously I can't work at the moment, but

I've realized what I'd really like to do

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is become a florist or a makeup artist

or whatever their passion was suddenly

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was becoming a reality for people.

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And that's what I absolutely thrived on.

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I loved helping people in those instances.

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So yeah, now we've got a small

studio, it's just me and my colleague

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Jess, and we're out helping people

be seen, heard, understood, and be

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commercial with their design choices.

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Vicki Weinberg: That is so interesting.

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Thank you so much for sharing your story.

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I found that really fascinating.

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And one thing I picked up on

actually, as we were speaking is

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there were so many examples you

gave of things you were doing.

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I think when I say ahead of the time,

what I mean were, seemed to be Basically,

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you know, the timelines we're speaking

about, you seem to be thinking about

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a lot of things before they were

the norm, if you see what I mean.

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So for example, you were talking

about making sure websites worked

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on mobile and that wasn't actually

a thing, was it, for a long time.

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In fact, even now I still see

websites that don't work on mobile.

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It's more rare, but yeah, it feels

like you were, yeah, sort of forward

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thinking in a lot of these areas.

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Lucianne Soley: Yeah, I was lucky

actually, because the kind of brands I

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was working on, and if I go back to the

top man days, obviously fast fashion,

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fast moving kind of a leader within

that high street space at the time.

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And um, even we had a separate website

for desktop and one for mobile.

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And in fact, we were then designing

an app and each of our international

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countries that we launched in.

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So we had the German speaking website,

for instance, that would also have

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two websites, one mobile, one desktop.

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And, um, They were forward thinking

enough to know and be monitoring

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mobile traffic to the website.

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And every meeting that we'd have on a

Monday morning, which I think is kind

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of nostalgic for anyone that works at

Arcadia, the Monday morning meeting also,

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and you found out everything for the week.

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Um, we would be tracking that, that

metric and that what percentage of

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traffic is coming through mobile.

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And we were just seeing it rise.

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Week on week season on season.

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So it became more and more paramount

to take action on that and make that

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experience as seamless as possible.

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And everywhere that I went after

that, that was the frame of mind.

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And I think with retail, in comparison

to any other industry that I've worked

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for as a freelance designer, they

are so on top of the trend because

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they're looking at consumer behavior.

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They're directly interacting

with people day in, day out.

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And if we're taking advantage

of that knowledge and that

174

information, you can pivot your

business just ahead of the curve.

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Vicki Weinberg: Thank you.

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And that leads me really nicely into

what I want to ask you about next,

177

which is what is commercial design?

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So I know that's something that you

are really focused on, and I think

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you've actually already given us some

examples based on my understanding,

180

but I would love for you to explain,

um, in the simplest terms you can, what

181

does commercial design mean and how is

that different from branding and from

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having a brand and having nice visuals?

183

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, I think

that's a really good question.

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And it's, it's not necessarily common

language within the graphic design space.

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Um, so I'm really trying to champion that

and help people understand what it is.

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Um, commercial design for me is

taking your aesthetic and your vision

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of your brand and turning it into

something that truly makes sales.

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So, for instance, we might be designing

an email, and that email might look

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beautiful, but the commercial aspect

of that email design is making sure

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it delivers to everyone's inbox,

that there are points that you can

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convert people to click through

to your website and ultimately

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buy a product or use your service.

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Um, excuse me one second,

sorry, I'll start that again.

194

Um, so email design, uh, if we take

email design as an example We might

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have a beautiful looking email, but

the commercial aspect of that is

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how it's truly going to convert.

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So, will it get to everyone's inbox?

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Is there enough points of reference to

visually stimulate the reader that they

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know where to click to go through to

your website and then purchase a product?

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Does that link go through to a page that

is the right link for that product, uh,

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rather than going through to, say, a

product listing page with lots of products

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on one page, does it go through to that

specific product to reduce the number of

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clicks so we can get it in their basket

and purchase without them getting bored

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or distracted Someone aren't like ringing

the doorbell and we want to make that

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that as seamless and quick as possible.

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Um, it also might be down to legibility.

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Can everyone read that email or

use, um, a device that might read

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out the email to them if they're

partially sighted, for instance?

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Um, are there alt tags included behind

the images that if the images are not

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pulled through, the reader still gets

a sense of what that email is about.

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And it really helps them to convert into

doing what your aim of the email is.

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Does that make sense?

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So if we're trying to sell a product,

it would help sell a product.

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If we're trying to get them to sign up

to a waiting list, they want to do that.

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Thank you.

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That makes so much sense.

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I guess, so I guess it's about, commercial

design is more about looking nice.

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It's about enabling your

customer to take whatever action

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it is you want them to take.

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As you say, whether that's sign up to

a waiting list, whether that's, you

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know, Buy something from you, whether

that's click and look at your new

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product, whatever the thing is, I guess

it's having a goal and design or the,

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I don't know how to say this properly,

but the email as an example achieves

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the goal as well as looking beautiful.

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So you don't have to look at massive email

that where the image is so big, it doesn't

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get to people's inboxes as an example.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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And there's a fine line between

beautiful aesthetic design

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and design that is commercial.

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And I think the kind of sweet

spot is finding a balance

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between the, between both.

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So I think because my experience is

working halfway between e commerce teams

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that are focused on metric and numbers

and conversion rates and marketing teams

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who are focused on brand equity and brand

building and how beautiful does something

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look to keep a customer coming back.

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I've always had to find a balance between

those two things and make sure, yes, the

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numbers are delivering and yes, the brand

looks beautiful as well at the same time.

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Vicki Weinberg: That is so interesting

because it's making me think about all

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these things that as a business or as a

customer, you sometimes just don't even.

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Consider until they're not done well.

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So I have an example based on something

you were saying, I opened an email

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recently and it was talking about a

new product and it did exactly what

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you said is when I clicked on the link,

what I thought was taking me to the

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product, it took me to like a random

page or about 20 things on there.

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And then I was really frustrated because

I couldn't see in the thumbnails, the

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thing that I'd clicked through to see.

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And I just clicked off the website because

I was just like, Oh, you know, I thought

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it was going to be like a 30 second.

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thing.

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And it was frustrating and

I immediately clicked away.

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So I guess that is an example of the sort

of thing you're talking about where design

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isn't, doesn't have a commercial aspect

to it because it was very beautiful.

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As I said, I clicked through, I really

wanted to, but as soon as it didn't

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work, I just got bored and left.

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Lucianne Soley: Yeah.

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And you give up and you become frustrated.

258

And then it also might mean that.

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If that was your first impression

of that brand, and you're like,

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Oh, wow, this email is beautiful.

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And I really want this

brand really aligns with me.

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And I want to buy something from them.

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And you go through in the

experiences and upheld.

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It's really disappointing.

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And then we have that lasting

impression of disappointment when

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we might next see that brand.

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And we might not even remember why,

but it goes down in our estimation.

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Um, so we want to keep that experience

really optimal and make sure that

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everything we're delivering from wherever

our customer comes in is commercial

270

is really satisfying and does what

we need it to do as a business owner,

271

which is obviously make some money.

272

Vicki Weinberg: Thank you.

273

And I think we've touched on some

of this before, but I would really

274

like, so phrases I've had, and I

think I know what they mean, but I

275

would love for you to explain what

they mean, because possibly I don't.

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So I've heard about UI and UX.

277

Can you start by

explaining what that means?

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Because I think that all plays

into commercial design, if

279

I'm understanding correctly.

280

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, absolutely.

281

I mean, to the point that now within

the graphic design space, um, these

282

roles didn't exist when I was back at

Topman, but you do get UI designers and

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UX designers, and those are whole roles.

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Um, whereas everything came

under e commerce designer.

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Back when I was working in house.

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So it's important enough that people are

hiring specifically for this skillset.

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So yeah, I think it's really

important to discuss this.

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UX means user experience.

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So it's our experience of the

brand and to end, um, we're

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really thinking human first.

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So we have to become kind of customer

obsessed and really get into the nitty

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gritty of what's my customer's life.

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How does my brand slot into their life?

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How can I make that experience wonderful?

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Like I was saying before, from the

moment that they find us to the

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moment that they're buying, and

even the after purchase experience.

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UI, in comparison, is user interaction.

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So that's much more about, it's

like a more granular level.

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What colors of font am I using?

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Is it legible?

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What color buttons am I using?

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Is it really obvious that those

are buttons and clickable?

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So it's, um, it's the experience

and interaction that go hand in hand

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to make the whole thing commercial.

305

Thank you.

306

And are you able to give us

some examples maybe of how small

307

businesses might apply this?

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Because a lot of smaller businesses.

309

Particularly if, um, with small

teams may not, well probably

310

don't in fact have a UX expert.

311

Are there some things that smaller

businesses can think about when

312

it comes to UI and UX, just simple

checks they can do or, or things to

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consider even that would be helpful?

314

Absolutely.

315

Yeah.

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I think the easiest thing comes to,

um, kind of sharing the load a bit.

317

And so whenever we're doing brand

design, website design for a client,

318

one of the first emails I send with

the first draft of that design says,

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please share this with someone else.

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Get someone else to look at it

and get them to test it as well.

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Someone that might not know your

brand inside out, or someone that is

322

a different generation to you, whether

that's older or younger, because I

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think we get really good insights from

seeing how other people use something

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we're seeing every day and all the time.

325

To us just going, yeah, that

looks right and not really

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investing the time to test it.

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So if I take again, email, for

example, if I send myself a test

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email, I'm going to look at it.

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I'm going to make sure that

it looks nice on desktop.

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I might take my phone and look

at it on Gmail on my phone.

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What does it look like here?

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Then I might start clicking

through and seeing if those links

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go to where I expect them to go.

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And then the insight comes if you

had someone else to check it, even if

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it's your colleague sitting next to

you or your husband or wife, whoever,

336

and they get that email and they

click through on a link and they go,

337

is this where it was supposed to go?

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That might be an alarm bell.

339

You kind of need to sense check at that

point and say, oh yeah, that is, that is

340

the right place that, that should go to.

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Or they say, oh, my email looks

like this and it's all just

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alt text and no images at all.

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Then you can do an

investigation as to why that is.

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Um, and I think just asking people

for any feedback on what they

345

don't like about the, the asset or

whatever the, um, kind of project

346

is, gives you a lot more insight than

saying, what do you like about it?

347

What don't you like makes them

really sit back and think because

348

ultimately they probably know you.

349

They want to like help you.

350

They want to support your business.

351

They're going to go, yeah,

yeah, it looks great.

352

But by asking what don't you like,

oh, well, this is a bit odd, or

353

I can't really see this color,

or you get that kind of feedback.

354

That's actually probably more

valuable to you in the long run.

355

Vicki Weinberg: That's so helpful.

356

Thank you, because I think we've

probably all had those experiences

357

of emails that don't work on certain,

um, email providers or websites that

358

look strange on certain browsers.

359

I've definitely had the experience

of something not working in Chrome,

360

but works on Safari, for example.

361

Lucianne Soley: And it's just these

things that if you're the only

362

one testing, you could possibly

go quite a long time without it.

363

Just without just realizing because

exactly, yeah, you realize when it's too

364

late and the email's gone out and you

start looking at your metrics and go,

365

Oh, no, one's really open that email or,

Oh, that hasn't gone to as many inboxes.

366

I thought it was going to go to, um,

which is obviously disappointing and

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all the effort that you've put in to

get that email ready, which I'm sure

368

any small business owner knows that

the investment of time is so valuable.

369

So we really want to make sure

those things are converting

370

when we send them out.

371

Vicki Weinberg: Thank you.

372

And you mentioned earlier, email

deliverability, and I haven't prepped

373

this question, so I hope you don't

mind me asking, but what are some

374

of the things that stop our emails

getting sent in the first place?

375

Because I'm sure we've all had that

experience of going into our email

376

provider and seeing that a certain

percentage have bounced back or haven't

377

been delivered, or you get marked as spam.

378

Is there anything that we can be doing to

help people get them in the first place?

379

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, absolutely.

380

So design wise and really commercial

design wise, I think a good example of

381

this is a story that I'll share with you.

382

And one of my clients, uh, we do retainer,

um, email design for, so every month they

383

share some ideas of what they like to do.

384

They write us some briefs and we come

back and deliver those email designs.

385

And the example that she shared

from me for with me, excuse

386

me, was, um, a high end hotel.

387

And she said, absolutely love this email.

388

It's absolutely beautiful.

389

Do you think we could do something

like this, this, this month?

390

And I looked at the email and said,

you know, yeah, we can definitely do

391

something like this, but I wouldn't

do it exactly how they've done it.

392

And the reason was this

email was stunning.

393

But it had end to end images, there

was no live text, there was no

394

buttons, it was just blocks of images

put into an email side by side.

395

Now, it looked like there was text

in the buttons on these images

396

because they'd been embedded into

the JPEG that had been uploaded,

397

rather than as a separate module.

398

Now, that's all well and good because

aesthetically it looks beautiful.

399

However, by having just images in

an email, lots of email service

400

providers will mark that as spam.

401

They think that they're not sending

anything of value because there's

402

only one type of module in that

email and it gets marked as spam.

403

So the deliverability I would guess on

that email that she shared was quite low.

404

Not everyone is going to get that

email because lots of email service

405

providers, Hotmail, Outlook, Gmail,

those kinds of things are going

406

to go, that doesn't look right.

407

Let's put it straight

into the junk folder.

408

So what we need to do is forge a

balance between having images, live

409

text, buttons, um, possibly product.

410

Um, modules with lots of products

to be shopped straight through

411

to as a mix in every email.

412

The second thing that I would

recommend is that, um, we keep

413

our emails quite succinct.

414

So a lot of the time we want to say

a lot to people that we might have

415

really wordy, um, blurbs or blog

posts that we want to share about

416

ingredients or features or benefits.

417

Now, the best way in email to do this

is to shorten down that information

418

or create things like icons that

visually demonstrate what we're

419

trying to say in a lot less words.

420

The reason for that is places like

Gmail will start to clip emails

421

after they are 100 kilobytes.

422

So we want to keep under 100

kilobytes when we're designing an

423

email to ensure they're not clipped,

that they're not marked as spam,

424

and they're super deliverable.

425

And we're getting our customers to see

the emails, how we've designed them,

426

because we've been finding if you have

a clipped email, Gmail, and you click

427

through to see the whole email, because it

says To view entire message, click here.

428

All of the rendering of your font choices,

um, alignments, might suddenly shift.

429

Um, and that's due to the internal

programming at Gmail's side.

430

But to avoid that click of view, uh,

entire message, we want to make sure

431

the whole email comes through just

from the get go and they don't even

432

have the opportunity to do that.

433

Vicki Weinberg: That's so helpful.

434

Thank you.

435

I really like that.

436

Some really practical things that people

can consider because I think you're right.

437

We can, all of us can get really carried

away with making things look nice.

438

So I really liked the fact you're

getting us to think beyond that as well,

439

because, um, yeah, that's so important.

440

And you also mentioned

Things being legible.

441

And I remember we had a guest on, I

think a few years ago now talking about

442

the importance of making sure that

anyone can, you know, we talk about alt

443

text and clear fonts and clear colors.

444

And I think all of this sort of builds

together really nicely to just make sure

445

as many people as possible can actually

do whatever it is you want them to do.

446

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, absolutely.

447

And that comes into

branding and commerciality.

448

So for instance, testing contrasting

colors and whether a font can

449

be read, say it's in purple

and the background is in green.

450

Is that differentiation

enough to be legible?

451

What about people that are colorblind?

452

So when people are thinking

about branding, commerciality

453

can come into that as well from

an accessibility point of view.

454

It's fascinating, isn't it?

455

How all of this just ties together.

456

But I think obviously the ultimate

goal of all of this is to be commercial

457

and to sell products and make money.

458

Vicki Weinberg: So I would love to know,

so Lucianne, how, how do we do this?

459

How do we take everything that we've,

Learn today to actually make some

460

money, whether it's from our website or

emails, maybe even social media as well.

461

We haven't actually touched on social

media, so I'd really like your thoughts

462

on that as well, if that's okay.

463

I know it's a big question,

but we can break it down.

464

Should we maybe start with social

media because we haven't covered that.

465

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, sure.

466

So when we're talking about social

media and commerciality, I think

467

you need to consider your purpose of

whatever you're doing on social media.

468

So as you know, we'll have organic social

media, we're posting things regularly,

469

um, to talk about our content pillars.

470

So, um, maybe our products,

maybe our values, features,

471

benefits, those kinds of things.

472

Then we might have paid social

media, which is advertising.

473

And that might be for Instagram,

for instance, on our grid

474

or on stories or on reels.

475

So those two areas have

different purposes.

476

The ads is much more about finding a

new customer and helping them to convert

477

or become a follower of your brand.

478

And the organic is possibly to.

479

Add value to your current customers,

encourage returning customers

480

and create brand equity, which is

much more of a marketing exercise.

481

So in terms of design here, I think

you just need to critique your own

482

brief when you're going into design

a social media ad, for instance,

483

what is the purpose of this ad?

484

Is it to highlight a sale?

485

If it's to highlight a sale, have I got

the right information that I need here?

486

What's the percentage

discount that's offered?

487

Is there a time limit on how

long this is going to be?

488

Am I using my brand effectively?

489

So making sure I'm using the same

fonts, the same colors, possibly

490

a color that you've assigned for

sale only, but ensuring everything

491

is consistent and cohesive.

492

What about the safe zones?

493

So when I say safe zones, I mean on

stories or on reels, there's lots

494

of little buttons that will ask

you to like something, to comment

495

on something, to share something.

496

There might be space allocated

for where the caption sits.

497

If all of our texts about our

sale is behind that caption,

498

it's impossible to read it.

499

And it's such a shame because that ad goes

out, we've spent money on the ad, we've

500

spent time on designing the ad, and then

no one can understand what the ad is for.

501

And possibly it doesn't

convert as well as it could.

502

So again, looking at the, um, the safe

zones, Brand application and wording

503

are all really, really important.

504

And then having someone, if you can

cross check it or just come back to

505

it 20 minutes after you've done it

and check it again before it goes.

506

Because I think always double

checking things that are aimed

507

to make you money is invaluable.

508

That's so helpful.

509

Thank you.

510

Cause I think like you say, especially

when we're busy, it could be so

511

tempting to create the ads or

whatever it is and then set it live.

512

And then you might check in with

the metrics, but I think very

513

few of us actually go back and

look at the visual and the text

514

and think, can we improve this?

515

And often I think if I'm talking from

my experience, I can't be talking

516

to everyone, but I've certainly had

experiences where maybe ads haven't

517

performed as well as I'd like.

518

And I've gone and I've

looked at the targeting.

519

I don't think I've thought,

okay, is it actually the wording?

520

Am I not being clear?

521

Is it the image?

522

Um, yeah, I think a lot of

us perhaps do miss that.

523

Okay.

524

Yeah, definitely.

525

And actually something that we've

been offering recently to our

526

clients is called brand guardianship.

527

And this is, um, really going to

be something that I champion this

528

year and going forward, because

I think it's so important and is

529

exactly what you've just said.

530

It is considering our output one,

making sure it's on brand two, making

531

sure it's commercial and three,

making sure it's on target for the

532

goal that we're trying to achieve.

533

And it would, for an example to give

you, lots of people might work with

534

a social media agency or an email

agency or a marketing agency, and

535

their metric is to generate a click

through or open rate or um, You know,

536

sales for instance, which is all really

important, but we don't want to on the

537

other side of the, um, commerciality

coin to have all of those things and

538

degrade our brand at the same time.

539

So, uh, my client came to me and said,

our agency want to put this bright orange

540

across all of our, um, social media ads.

541

And orange is not one

of their brand colors.

542

And the reason for it was they think it

will be really eye catching and stand out.

543

Now that's great.

544

If we're looking at metrics only.

545

But for me, I'm a, I'm looking at

myself as a brand guardian to my client.

546

And I said, I don't think that

that's a good idea because it's

547

not one of our brand colors.

548

We've just launched our new branding

and we don't want to dilute it.

549

We want to be known.

550

within our brand colors

for all the reasons that we

551

chose those brand colors for.

552

If we now introduce orange, the

customer's going to get a bit confused

553

about who, what this brand is.

554

Is this a special offer?

555

It wasn't, it was just a seasonal

color that wanted to be used.

556

Um, and they might lose kind of that brand

recognition that we've been building up.

557

Now, if you're a super established brand

like Selfridges or Tiffany or someone like

558

that, then yeah, they might play a little

bit with color or do a collaboration

559

with another brand where I don't know,

Tiffany suddenly becomes Burberry

560

tartan and they do something together.

561

Now that's kind of disruptive

and iconic and there's probably

562

a separate conversation, but when

we're just building up, we really

563

want to build brand recognition.

564

And brand equity, which adds to the

value of our business as a whole.

565

So as much as we want to be commercial

and possibly do something really

566

flashy to get the metric return,

we don't want to diminish what our

567

brand is doing in the longterm.

568

And that's where that brand guardianship

piece comes in and how to keep our brand

569

commercial in the longterm, not just in

the short term, that makes a lot of sense.

570

And there's so much consider

that something I'm really

571

picking up in this conversation

is there's so many aspects of.

572

Design.

573

And then when you add the commercial

element on there as well, there's

574

just, there's just a lot, but thank

you for making it sort of making

575

it sound and making it simple.

576

Vicki Weinberg: Um, the final thing I'd

like to talk about, if it's okay, when

577

we're talking about how to make, how to

make money in the commercial side would

578

be website, which we've touched on.

579

Um, uh, what's your advice to having a

website that's not only looks beautiful,

580

but it's actually, you know, commercially

does what it should do as well.

581

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, definitely.

582

So I think where possible hiring a website

designer is great because they already

583

know all of these things and they'll be

able to execute them well on your behalf.

584

Now that's not accessible for everyone.

585

There's a lot of brilliant DIY website

tools out there like Squarespace,

586

Shopify, all of those places.

587

And I think what they do really well is

help you to identify the different parts

588

of your web page that might be needed,

um, and also what those pages are.

589

So in terms of commercial design, when it

comes to website, one thing that I always

590

do at the beginning of a website project

is look at the pages that we require.

591

So that might be a homepage

about us contact product detail

592

page and a product listing page.

593

So let's go with those six

for now or five, five for now.

594

Um, so what I will ask myself about

each of those pages is what is the goal?

595

What is the goal of my homepage?

596

My homepage is there to drive

traffic to where they need to go.

597

Am I talking about the products

that I've got a lot of that

598

I want to move stock off?

599

Am I talking about my best selling

products that I know is going to

600

guarantee me some money coming in?

601

Am I talking about newness?

602

Am I encouraging repeat customers

to come in by talking about newness?

603

Am Is there anything about me

as a human behind the brand that

604

someone could go through to?

605

Because the homepage isn't

just for converting customers.

606

It might be for a brilliant journalist

or an agent that is actually going

607

to really help you out in the future.

608

We want them to be able to get

in contact with us as well.

609

So that's my homepage.

610

I've identified those goals.

611

I'm going to include those

areas on my homepage.

612

Same with the contact page.

613

What's my contact page there for?

614

Is it for customer service?

615

Is it for press inquiries?

616

Is it for help?

617

Is it for warranties?

618

I need to define that goal so that

I can make the content of that page

619

work really well for its purpose.

620

Then when I come to designing, I'm

going to think about things like

621

legibility that we've said before,

but also things like imagery.

622

Now, we haven't really touched on imagery

yet, but something that we talk to

623

our customers about a lot as business

owners is the expense of a photo shoot.

624

Now with product based businesses,

there are different types

625

of photo shoots we can do.

626

There's lifestyle, there's campaign

that might have a model or a talent

627

that is known in, in my sector.

628

Uh, there's pack shots of

just the product, possibly on

629

a white or gray background.

630

Uh, and then there's user generated

content where, uh, we've got

631

lovely photos of people using our

products in their day to day life.

632

So what I would do is put together

a small brief or a guideline for

633

when you're creating that imagery,

um, and think about your website

634

design and what it looks like.

635

So often when we land on a website, we've

got a hero banner, which is that big

636

top banner at the top of the homepage.

637

Sometimes it's a bit of a slideshow.

638

Um, but what we need to take away from

that is It's very wide landscape image.

639

And then something that we run into

time and time again is when we want

640

to update our homepage for our client

and the client sends through lots and

641

lots of beautiful portrait images.

642

Now, what am I going to

use on that homepage?

643

Unless I'm zooming in really, really

close on that portrait image to get a bar

644

out of it, essentially like a letterbox.

645

I'm looking through the letterbox

at this image, or am I going to

646

collage those images together?

647

Or is there something else I

can do creatively to make the

648

most out of the portrait images?

649

Now, if my client originally in the shoot

had shot a series of landscape images and

650

cropped into them to make portrait images

or square images for social media, that's

651

given me the opportunity to use that extra

wide image in a homepage banner, possibly

652

at the top of a product listing page.

653

I might have an image banner up

there, even places like LinkedIn,

654

like social media, we might have.

655

image spaces that are long and thin,

um, display advertising on Google.

656

There's lots of long and thin

different shaped boxes to consider.

657

So my top tip for commerciality, really

for email design is think about your

658

imagery and how you're shooting it.

659

Can you shoot in landscape and then crop

into it for every instance you need?

660

Does that give you enough breadth

of your, um, shoot and possibly a

661

bigger return on investment because

you can use it in lots more places.

662

So yeah, sorry, that was

a bit of a tangent, but I

663

think it's really important.

664

Vicki Weinberg: That is such a good tip.

665

Thank you.

666

And I didn't find you can go

out the landscape thing myself

667

until I was having a shoot done

a hedge headshot shoot recently.

668

And then my website designer said

to me, Oh, make sure you get some

669

landscape shape, landscape headshots,

because obviously if you have just

670

portrait exactly, as you've said, you're

really limited how you can use them.

671

And yeah, I think that's brilliant advice

because I think I certainly, when I have

672

my product business, I think all of my

original product photos were squares.

673

Right.

674

Partly because I took them myself and

I was just putting them on a white

675

sheet and yeah, and choosing squares

because that's what I thought you did.

676

So this is useful because I

think you're right, especially

677

if you're investing money, you

want to get as much as possible.

678

And I really like that advice

because as you say, a landscape

679

shot can be turned into portrait.

680

It can be turned into a square.

681

It can be, you can play around with

the dimensions depending what platforms

682

you're selling your products on.

683

So I think that's brilliant.

684

Thank you.

685

Lucianne Soley: You're welcome.

686

A lot more capabilities out of

landscape than anything else, for sure.

687

Vicki Weinberg: Before I move on

to my final question, Lucy, and we

688

have covered so much today, is there

something you touched on earlier

689

that I just wanted to ask you about?

690

And you mentioned that a long time

ago, I think it might've even been

691

when you, at university, you were

looking at buying behaviors and the

692

differences between men and women.

693

If you don't mind just touching

that briefly, I think it might be

694

useful because a lot of listeners

will, will be You know, know

695

who their ideal customer is.

696

And I just think that just might give

them an added, I don't know, insight

697

into their customers potentially.

698

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, definitely.

699

And I guess we're kind of going to

stereotypes a little bit here, but I

700

can share the information that I found

out from, um, when I wrote my paper.

701

So, um, I guess the most curious thing

that I found out at the time was the

702

difference between a value customer and

a premium customer and a luxury customer.

703

So, um, During a recession, the middle,

that premium customer tends to fall away

704

into either a value camp or a luxury camp.

705

And interestingly, a lot of men fall

more into the luxury camp than women.

706

So during recession, there's something

that comes into play in a men's, in

707

a man's psychology called peacocking.

708

And essentially that means

having a brand written across.

709

A top, a jumper, whatever the item

is, I'm talking fashion here, um, They

710

will buy something that is a higher

quality and a higher price point.

711

So they buy once and buy well,

essentially, whereas women, if they're

712

concerned about money, they might

go further into a value purchase.

713

So they might buy more items to make them

feel like they're still able to purchase.

714

Um, but that might be a

much cheaper price point.

715

So in that recession, we were losing

things like French connection,

716

um, which I know is kind of.

717

become a phoenix and risen

from the ashes slightly.

718

But, um, those kind of premium point

brands were falling away because they

719

didn't have the, uh, esteem of say

Vivian Westwood, and they weren't

720

cheap enough to buy multiple items off.

721

Now that's, Very sort of stereotypical

to say women go into value and

722

men go into luxury because there's

definitely people that do the opposite.

723

It was just, um, an interesting finding

that at that time, lots more men

724

focused luxury stores were opening up

to serve the market that had become

725

apparent during that recession.

726

Um, I think what's also interesting about

recession or Um, possibly like downturns

727

of the economy is the lipstick effect.

728

So a lot of luxury brands start

to sell a lot more lipstick

729

or entry price point product.

730

So if you are feeling slightly

insecure about what's going on, um,

731

In the, in the world at the moment,

you might be looking at having a

732

bit more self care in your life.

733

And often that comes into, I don't know,

having a face mask at home or a new

734

lipstick that makes you feel great when

you go out or a spritz of perfume that

735

makes you feel really kind of confident.

736

Luxury brands know that, and during

times of downturn and recession, they

737

will buy more inventory of lipstick,

um, entry price, uh, accessories, and,

738

uh, perfume, to basically bolster that

market, because people want to buy a

739

little bit of luxury without spending

Breaking the bank on something like a coat

740

or a handbag and those kind of things.

741

Um, so it's always something to consider

that if you are a premium brand, there

742

might be worth having, uh, some kind

of designated entry price point product

743

that someone who aspires to buy the

full price coats that you offer can

744

buy into originally and warm up to

those bigger, longer standing pieces.

745

Vicki Weinberg: That's so interesting.

746

Thank you.

747

And I know, as you say, I know that part

of it is stereotyping, which we were not

748

intending to do, but I just think it's

really, I love anything psychology based.

749

So I think it's really just

fascinating to look at.

750

What the data tells us

about buying habits.

751

And as you say, I think it's now, it's

probably like really relevant timing too.

752

Lucianne Soley: Yeah, definitely.

753

And I work with quite a few gifting

brands, so jewelry brands, lingerie

754

brands, that kind of thing.

755

And something we've noticed with men

and women is that majority of the time

756

they have a female customer basis.

757

But during gifting period, so coming

up to, you know, the end of the year

758

festivities, um, we get a lot more men

that coming in, um, as gift buyers, right?

759

And something that we did at La Perla

that is possibly helpful for your

760

audience to consider is how do we

make a shopping experience easier for

761

someone that is buying a gift, whether

they're a man or a woman, but let's

762

focus on men for, for this conversation.

763

Say a man is buying a piece of jewelry

for someone and they're not 100

764

percent sure what they want to buy

and they know kind of what this person

765

might like, but they might not go

into the details like we do as women.

766

So I don't know.

767

I always wear gold jewelry, so I'm not

sure that my husband would remember

768

that I always wear gold jewelry,

but my best friend definitely would.

769

So we have different kind of

approaches when buying gifts.

770

Now as a, um, Uh, a product, um, brand,

what we could do is put this tool

771

in place that helps them decide what

product to buy and simplify that process.

772

So for instance, at La Perla,

we created a send a hint, um,

773

module within the lingerie brand.

774

So the idea was as a woman, I would

go on, I would make my wishlist.

775

I'd save all my sizes in there.

776

And I would send an email that

would say, Lucianne sent a hint.

777

And that would essentially list my

underwear sizes so that the person

778

I sent it to could go in and buy

the appropriate items for me without

779

worrying, Oh, it doesn't fit.

780

I've sent them something too

small or too big, or I've offended

781

them, et cetera, et cetera.

782

And the same thing with jewelry brands.

783

It might be a wishlist functionality

tool or a quiz that someone

784

can go on and say, right?

785

The gift is for my aunt.

786

Does she like gold or silver?

787

Oh, I hadn't really thought about that.

788

Let me look at some photos and

see what she's wearing and kind of

789

stimulate the filters to help narrow

down to less products and make

790

that process quicker to purchase.

791

Vicki Weinberg: That's a really

good, that's a really good tip.

792

And I've actually, so there are

some sites that do things like

793

that, aren't there, really well.

794

And I actually think this is

made to be the best example.

795

I was buying a card recently and this

card site that I went to did this

796

really well because when it came up,

when you went to buy the card, first

797

of all, it asked you who it was for.

798

So I think it was, I think it was

first of all, started male, female,

799

and then you could narrow it down.

800

This is my sister or my mom.

801

And then it was today like a cute, are

you looking for cute cards, funny cards?

802

Do you want cards?

803

Yeah.

804

swearing or not, and there were

quite a few filters, but you tick,

805

you know, tick through them down and

then you're not left with, because

806

obviously when you buy a card, you can

have thousands, you know, there were

807

thousands to go through, aren't there?

808

A hundred percent.

809

Those websites are huge, aren't they?

810

Yeah.

811

So this may not be the best example, but I

actually do think I was looking for fairly

812

quickly just because I was able to go.

813

I don't want it personalized.

814

I don't want to add a photo.

815

I don't want any bad language and then you

can just, it did, you know, yes, you're

816

still left with a lot, but at least you're

only looking at things that are relevant.

817

That may or may not be the best example,

but it was one I can think of that it did

818

make the process of buying a card, which

can be a bit overwhelming unless you're

819

going to walk into a physical card shop.

820

It did make it quicker, I

think, than if I just gone on.

821

to the homepage, gone to

birthday cards and just scrolled

822

and scrolled and scrolled.

823

Lucianne Soley: Absolutely.

824

Yeah.

825

So great filtering

there from that company.

826

And if you gamify it by putting into a

quiz, it's almost more appealing to do it.

827

Vicki Weinberg: Yeah, definitely.

828

So I think in all of these things that

I think I wanted to share that example

829

is just because I think a lot of, a

lot of sites do this really well, but

830

there are also, I'm sure opportunities.

831

For those who haven't considered

that to go, Oh yeah, maybe I

832

could organize things like this.

833

Or maybe I could add that filter

because I don't know about you,

834

Lucianne, but I know when I shop,

I rely heavily on filters because

835

Lucianne Soley: Oh, a hundred percent.

836

Yeah, me too.

837

And it's almost annoying when

you go somewhere and they don't

838

have that, like using the jewelry

example, I only wear silver jewelry.

839

So if I ever go to a site that

sells jewelry and they don't have

840

a filter to filter out, The metal.

841

I find that really frustrating because I'm

scrolling through lots of gold jewelry.

842

And again, that's a, any sort of

point of inconvenience means if you

843

get distracted or you just ran out

of time, you might just give up.

844

And then that's that sale lost.

845

Yeah, absolutely.

846

I think with that as well, when filters

don't work properly or the product isn't

847

tagged well, and I want to filter only

silver jewelry, and then I've got three or

848

four gold bits, I almost don't trust it.

849

I'm like, well, am I missing silver

bits that might be in the gold category?

850

And that's really frustrating as well.

851

Vicki Weinberg: So yeah, you've

given us so much to think about.

852

Thank you so much.

853

I'm going to be thinking

of examples all day now.

854

I think, um, so thank you so much.

855

I've got one final question

before we finish, if that's okay.

856

And I ask everybody this, and that would

be based on all we've spoken about today.

857

What would your number one piece of

advice be for product businesses?

858

Lucianne Soley: I think my number

one, and it's probably really

859

obvious is to consider commerciality.

860

So try not to go down the route of

being an aesthetic led only brand or

861

a metric led only brand and try and

find that happy medium of something

862

that is beautifully formed and very

commercial and create sales, which

863

means your business can thrive.

864

Vicki Weinberg: That's really helpful.

865

Thank you so much, Lucianne.

866

Lucianne Soley: Thank you.

867

so much for having me.

868

I've loved it.

869

Vicki Weinberg: Thank you

so much for listening right

870

to the end of this episode.

871

Do remember that you can get the

full back catalogue and lots of free

872

resources on my website, vickyweinberg.

873

com.

874

Please do remember to rate and review

this episode if you've enjoyed it

875

and also share it with a friend

who you think might find it useful.

876

Thank you again and see you next week.