Before you grow your music career, you need to know where you really stand.

In this episode of Backstage Money, Jason K. Powers sits down with Chris Fletcher, founder of MusicBizMentors.com, artist development coach, and longtime music business instructor at Musicians Institute.

Chris shares how she got started helping artists, how she built her career in music business and education, and why musicians need to honestly assess their songs, skills, and business habits before trying to level up.

This conversation covers:

1. How Chris Fletcher got started in artist development
2. What “baby bands” need most early on
3. How to tell whether you’re a beginner, intermediate, or advanced artist
4. Why releasing music matters more than chasing perfection
5. Why musicians still need an email list
6. How consistent small actions build momentum over time
7. Why creating and business growth go hand in hand

If you’re trying to get more serious about your music career, this episode will help you think more clearly about your next steps.

Learn More About Chris Fletcher

MusicBizMentors.com

Backstage Money

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Free Financial Resource for Musicians

Get the free ebook A Musician’s Guide to Infinite Banking at https://1024wealth.com/music

Welcome to Backstage Money, real World Finance for Musicians.

I'm your host, Jason K. Powers, and this is where music and money collide

with honest stories and practical lessons from people who make it work.

So let's get to it.

Today I'm joined by Chris Fletcher, founder of Music Biz Mentors and

longtime artist development coach.

Chris has worked in artist development since 1989 through her company, coast to

Coast Music, helping independent artists, book tours, land college and festival

performances, and secure sponsorships and grants to fund their projects.

So, quite a bit of things.

Since 2001, she's taught in the music business program at Musicians Institute

and where she develops and teaches.

Multiple courses including getting gigs, personal management, making money as a

musician, and she's also created music biz mentors.com where she hosts webinars,

panels, and coaching programs to help DDIY artists build sustainable careers.

Chris currently works with several independent artists and continues

teaching musicians how to turn their skills into real income.

Chris, welcome to the show.

Oh, good.

Glad to be here.

Yeah.

I appreciate you coming on.

It was great to meet you a little while back and hear kind of all the different

things that you're up to and it's it's been fun just talking with you.

I was like, oh, this is the person I gotta have on the show.

Everyone's gonna enjoy this.

You know?

So I always like to start with, I say origin stories, you know,

how did you get into this?

How did you know, come from whatever to the idea of I think this is

what I'm gonna do as a career and,

yeah.

at it so long now.

So I, I started when I was 20 and I just started going to see bands.

And one of the biggest deals was, is that if I liked the band, I had a

caravan of people that would follow me.

And so, I was, I guess it was an influencer back then, but we

didn't call it then, you know, so I was crazy about live music.

I would drive four hours to see a band, see them for an hour,

drive five hours home, and then I'd go to work the next day.

So I,

Yeah.

crazy fans like me out there, and so I, where I still, to this day, I sit.

If I go and I'm helping out with a show or something, you'll

find me behind the merch table.

That's where it all started, is this merch table.

And so it was all cover bands.

It was in Philadelphia and New Jersey.

That's where a lot of the music was.

And then little by little I just started helping them out more.

I'm always, you know, doing the email list in the mailing list in

the olden days and stuff like that.

And then I was working with one band that broke up into three.

and then all of a sudden I'm managing three bands by the time I'm 24.

Again, no internet.

No books except the Passman book, which is boring as can be.

You know, we still have, and I never picked it.

I felt like it picked me.

I, I, yeah, I went to business school.

I worked for the post office during the day, and I did this stuff at night.

And then, you know, 1989 or 88, I said, I'm not gonna be here anymore.

This is too much snow.

You know how the, sometimes with music, you know, it the, it gets

like really great with all the live.

to play at and then all of a sudden there's nothing there anymore.

They all closed down.

So that's kinda what was happening at that time.

All my friends were getting married, you know, getting a house, and I'm

like, you, no, that's not for me.

So I came out here in 88, just on a whim with my niece and I said

here for a week and I'm like, I should have been here all along.

What's wrong with me?

This is where the industry is.

I need to be here.

So I took a year and took my, my my, my retirement from the post

office, which is about $10,000.

And I came out here, got my own place and started just, putting

my name in to get jobs and I did temp jobs and started working with

bands and all that kinda stuff.

And that's really how it started.

I didn't mean go towards that career, it just happened automatically for

It just sort of came to be, I hear that with a lot of people.

You know, you kind of, there comes a time where you make that leap, if you will.

There's a definitive left hand turn, if you will where you start making

those choices and make the move

Yeah.

In a lot of cases, you know, head out to la, head out to

Nashville and dive in head first.

Right?

Yeah.

And again, we're still, that was before the internet,

Yeah.

you, you have to be pretty cre I feel like I'm creative in that way where

even now, you know, you go on the internet, there's just so much stuff.

Like, I'm not getting my answer.

I have no problem picking up a phone or I actually worked in a library all

through school and stuff like that.

I like the research kind of thing.

And so it doesn't necessarily, I mean, I'm not, I'm never afraid to call

somebody and say, Hey, do you know this?

Do you know somebody who can help me with this?

Yeah.

the best way still to be, because people don't have secretaries anymore.

You can just call and ask for them and they're like, hello.

You know, and you're like, oh.

So you have to, you know.

That kinda stuff.

So, so I never ha I'm not, worst he could say is say, no go.

I don't wanna talk to you.

You know, that kinda stuff.

So I've always been okay to just speak to people and never be afraid

to say that I don't know somebody.

'cause they, people like that, you know, I've known for school and

they're pretty well-known teachers in their, and in their craft and stuff.

And they'll go, do you know this person?

I'm like, They go, you don't, uh, I'll tell you what, let me

introduce you, you know, kinda stuff.

So I've never been afraid.

'cause you'll walk, you'll say, you'll know it, and you'll walk in

the door and the person will be there.

You don't even know, you know?

And so I'm never afraid to like, to just, I'm always learning.

You can't know everybody, you know, that kinda stuff.

Yeah.

I just started, you know, working with bands and, you know, I

I, my first job out, my first.

Not non-pay job.

We called it helping somebody out, not interning.

Was with a woman by the name of Deb Rosner who founded Poison

Okay.

she did publicity and promotion and she was, there was a friend out here that

I met from back east and his girlfriend knew her and I just started going in twice

a week and she was doing publicity and promotion for small bands and we call them

baby bands 'cause they weren't signed yet and some sign bands and I wanted to know

how it worked here, know, 'cause East Coast is different than West coast, south.

Think you go on the radio, you can get on the radio East coast, you can't

do that here, you know, so it was a whole different ballgame and it was

really concentrating on press here.

And so I was never afraid to talk to anybody and I was helping her out

for three months and then she got a big job and I took her baby bands on.

Yeah.

So, so that, then that was doing publicity, but then it ran,

ran back into management again.

'cause I got all involved.

Mm-hmm.

that

Mm-hmm.

you know, so, so that's really, that's the real beginning

story of all that kinda stuff.

That's great.

So you really, I mean, got started, let's spin off of maybe this baby band's kind

of comment, you know, these bands who are starting out trying to trudge forward

and make it and get known and you kind of spun off of that it sounds like when you

got into the education side a little bit.

Right, and went, I think there's a lot of value in this.

More musicians need to know how to make a buck really.

Yeah.

I mean, it was because I was work.

When you work with the beginning band, they have no money.

They have no money, you know, even for a $30 rehearsal kind of thing.

So I used to say, okay, we're gonna get some merch together.

I'm gonna find some gigs.

You're gonna get paid.

And for the first year, any money that we make gets put into a pot.

You don't take any of it.

So every week, I'm not saying you're paying for rehearsals,

we have to go and record.

Everybody's gotta pitch in a hundred bucks.

You know, all that kind of stuff.

And so they agree.

They had to agree.

And actually I didn't take any money either,

Mm-hmm.

had to really believe that it was gonna happen to be so will you would

have some money to do something.

'cause I'm not here to fund them.

I

Yeah.

don't know who they think is gonna pay my bills, you know, that

Yes.

stuff.

And I think really that's where the teaching kind of came in.

Kenny Kerner, who ran the music business department he actually

also worked at Music Connection.

So when I was trying to get publicity, we struck up a friendship and then

he said, you know, I'm teaching this class over at Musicians Institute.

It's the only business class that's called Music Business Basics.

would you come in and tell people what you do?

And I went, okay.

So I came in and I was telling him what I was doing, you know,

booking and doing that kinda stuff.

And he goes, would you like to do a course?

said, what does that mean?

He said, like, two hours, 10 weeks.

I'm like, oh God, I dunno if I had that much material.

Right?

And so I went home and I figured out, I was like, oh, I guess I do

Um,

stuff.

And there was no music business department yet.

And so two years later, he finally developed a music business department.

And then he said, what else do you wanna teach?

yeah.

I can teach touring, you know?

And so I kind of got really good at writing up the lesson

plans and all that kinda stuff.

And so, so then little by little and I also was, he also asked me like two

years in, like 2006, I think it was.

He said, he called me yellow, the blue going, Hey Chris you know, we have this

guy here that's doing the internship, you know, and he's gonna leave.

I think you'd be really good at this.

And I said, he Hollywood every day?

I don't know that, right?

He goes, you'd have your own office and you, there's only 20 students for right

now, and then it's only 20 hours a week and you can, you know, do your band stuff.

And I'm like, don't know.

Like, I don't think so.

I said, I don't know.

I said, but I'll still teach my classes.

He goes, I dunno if he wanted teacher to do that.

I said, forget it, then ask somebody else, right?

So a week later he goes, what would it take for you to do that?

And I said.

Why he said, because I just interviewed three people that I won't let walk my dog.

So for six years I did the internship at school because we have a music business

program that is a requirement that they do 120 hours with an internship

company or else they do not graduate.

So it was a one-to-one thing.

So, I was doing that.

I was really like, really like was into the, I could call anybody at Sony or

Universal and that kinda stuff, but I was so busy I couldn't use the contacts,

Mm-hmm.

that kind stuff.

So, little by little, I, you know, then I finally just like kind of gave it up.

I've done that off and on.

Got like, I started really six months after I was here.

I answered an ad for a small record company.

And I was in the front office in charge of the inventory and all that kind of stuff.

And six months later, the girl that was in charge, she left, I met went right into

her position and I was still working with the bands, still doing that too, you know?

And so I was there for seven years and then I had enough to break off

and do, and then the teaching started.

And so you always have to, it's, it's calling Diversify

Yeah, that's right.

musicians and for me, you know, as an independence, whatever we're doing, we're

always looking for work in the future.

Yeah.

And no matter, 'cause anybody can quit on me.

I've had people quit on me I learned early on I can, I can feel that

happening and kind of step back a little bit and go from there.

But but yeah, I mean I've had a lot of success with some of the bands

that I've worked with, including, you know, having like a major Budweiser

sponsor and 18 equipment endorsements before we were assigned and publishing

deals and a couple of record deals here and there and stuff like that.

But technically a band doesn't stay together longer than five years,

Mm-hmm.

usually.

Like they are kinda stuff.

So you gotta squeeze everything you can outta the five years

to do that kinda stuff.

Yeah.

and I'm always looking, I have probably, I have about five artists

and bands that I watch all the time.

They know who I am.

And if somebody decides they're gonna take a break or they don't you know,

or they don't wanna do this anymore, I can go to them and say, Hey.

Do you wanna work with me?

And I don't think it would be, they'd jump at it the time because they're doing

everything themselves kind of thing.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

kinda how I work with any of that stuff.

Yep.

the idea of going after using music musicians skills to do more than one job.

know?

So whether they, I said it in class the other day 'cause it was our last class.

And then we have finals next week, so we're on a quarter basis.

And I said, listen, it's about diversifying your skills.

That's where it's gonna be.

Think about what happened when the pandemic hit.

You know, you went on tour all the time.

You can't do that anymore.

What

Right.

do?

you, can you do your videos?

Can you record more music?

Can you do stuff online?

It's always like that.

And boy, the pandemic made us be more techie.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, and that's the truth.

I mean, we really went I watched a ton of artists online all of a sudden that

were, you know, had really accelerated, let's say the online presence, the videos

the day-to-day stuff, more day-to-day stuff, you know, and what is life like.

And so I think that was helpful for a lot of artists who could, jump on

the opportunity, I guess, and stay engaged and stay relevant in that.

And we'll talk about in a little bit, kind of the promotional side,

just a couple ways you can stay maybe relevant in the promotional side.

And that's what reminds me of when you talk about diversification.

You know, it's, it's same in your own music business.

It's diversification.

And from a promotional standpoint, how many different things can you do,

Right.

To promote yourself?

You know, I say, well before an artist can grow, I think there's something to

be said about, as you put it, when we were talking earlier about musicians

need to take stock of their skills and experiences before trying to grow.

And, and I think how, how do artists, how do musicians honestly evaluate,

you know, what level they're at.

Well, it starts with how many songs do you have,

Mm-hmm.

many songs you have written.

How many songs do you have recorded it?

Uh, that's to me the beginning is you're writing and recording your music.

That's number one.

You know, I, if you don't have any music, I can't help you.

I don't do that.

You know, that kind of stuff.

I don't sing background, don't do any of that stuff.

And so for me it's pushing them to ke they gotta keep writing anyway.

But you gotta have, and you know, especially if you're just starting to

write, every song isn't gonna be great.

And so going, even joining a songwriting group or something like that, I did

that with one of my, I had a Brazilian artist I work with, and she was writing

songs, but she wasn't finishing them.

So I said, you know, I know this group that gets together once a week, it's like

$35 a session, and I know the woman who does the session and I want you to go.

And she was like, I said, you going and I need you to go.

And I made the call.

You're going right.

And she, I think she was just afraid she wasn't good enough.

so she went and she came back.

She said they loved my songs.

But what she needed was a deadline because she used to be in school

and there used to be a deadline.

This has to be done by this time, this has to be done by this time, that kinda stuff.

And she needed the deadline.

She wasn't able to do the deadline herself in the songwriting, but so

the, the group helped her do that with herself, that kinda stuff.

And so it really has to do that.

That's what it starts with more than anything else.

And while you're writing and doing all that kinda stuff, you know, you

kind of get to know who, what kind of artist you are what are, and I

always say and actually she one day texted me, what's my music mission?

And I'm like, oh, she's doing, looking at something about marketing.

That's cool.

And I'm like, what?

Is your music mission.

I can't text that to you.

Let's talk about it now.

What are your songs saying to the world?

What are you trying to say to the world?

It's, you know, what are you trying to portray?

Who do you wanna listen to it?

Not just ages, but what do they do?

You know?

Where do they go to listen to music?

You know, that kind of stuff.

So instead of going back to, well, it's between the ages of 15 to 25, well,

what do the 15 to 25 year olds do?

What do they do when they listen to music?

How do they do that kind of stuff?

And so that's why I mean,

before the tower when Tower Records closed, I knew everything would change

because there was nowhere for people to go to listen to music or to buy it.

so before that, I was doing indie.

Before it was called Indie, we were recording our own songs.

We were, we're going after paid gigs.

And we were making our own merch and we were doing it all ourselves.

And so when the MI Indie started happening, they're

like, go talk to Chris Fletcher

Yeah.

Okay.

she's booking col.

And the people are like, how are you going on the road and getting paid?

I said, people don't, if you go to a small town.

We went to Ramona, California here, it's like, I don't know,

a half hour from San Diego.

There's nothing in that town.

So if there's a concert, everybody goes.

And so they have money to do that.

They 35 do, I mean, years ago, $35 for a ticket kind of stuff.

And then they treat you so well and they don't even care what kind of music it is.

They're like, wow, because see music.

Yeah.

Yeah.

always done that.

And then I found too, my friend told me one time when I was just starting this,

they go, your, your, your music, the music for you that you're doing right now with

your bands would be great at colleges.

You know, colleges book gigs and you get paid for it.

And I'm like, what?

Yeah.

we start, I started finding out how to do that kind of stuff.

And so, you can go anywhere and anywhere in the United States and a college is

doing a noontime concert and paying you 500 to a thousand dollars to sing for the.

Lunch hour kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I've been doing that for a long time.

And there's so many opportunities that people don't think when you're

performing the thing, you know, we celebrate everything here in California.

We have food festivals, avocado, we celebrate every, everything,

avocado, oranges, you name it.

And then there's a stage like, and they're always

Everything.

and they have sponsors.

so if you go and look at any kind of website with a venue, if

there's a sponsorship button, it means they have money to pay you.

Mm-hmm.

So

Mm-hmm.

that's where the money is started putting that stuff

Yep.

So they, you know, artists wanna start out, I mean, taking stock

of their skills and experiences.

Obviously start out, you gotta have music, you gotta have something to demonstrate.

What mistakes maybe do you see artists make when they

kind of misjudge their level?

I think I, came up to me after class the other day and she

said, so can I have a question?

like, yeah.

She goes, so I'm a perfectionist, so I haven't really released

any of my music yet.

I said, girl, let that go.

I said, you are never going to be happy.

You'll be happy for a second.

But then you go, oh, I can add this.

Right?

And I said, you know, the everyday person does not know that you added

a sax player or extra voice in it.

I'm an everyday person.

I'm in the industry so I can hear it and a musician can hear it, but the

everyday person does not know that.

So I said to a couple of your friends people who like what you do, and if

they say, sounds good to me, then put it up there, putting it out there, right?

Because it's gonna change as whatever you have in recording, when you start

performing it, it's going to change.

And so you don't, every time it changes, you don't record it again.

You're, you gotta keep growing into that kind of stuff.

So.

So that's one of the, that's the biggest thing, you know, when I saw somebody,

oh, we've been recording our three songs for the past year and I'm going, what?

Whatcha talking about a year?

You know, like, no, let it go.

Yeah.

you know, also just getting a little bit of your business together.

You know, I tell while you're writing songs, you can go to GoDaddy or domain

name and get your domain name of your band or yourself, or you always get the.com

and I said, you can start a social media page, let people know you're doing music.

You don't have to do anything major.

Just, you know, let people know with that kinda stuff.

Start

I like how you said, once you said that business stops when you stop creating.

exactly.

and I think that's a great way to put it.

You know, business stops when you stop creating.

So let's talk about that idea, like what business habits, maybe

no matter what level an artist.

I mean, I, you, I say you can promote at any level.

Yeah.

have one song you can promote it to, to the world.

And you know, Sonia was complaining.

Yes.

I went to a webinar, a workshop at school yesterday and people were talking,

well, how do I get money from streaming?

And I'm like, I'm sitting there going, you can't get money from steering me.

Not unless you hire somebody to help you with that stuff, but there's

plenty of other ways to make money.

But we have to do it.

We have to do the new stuff.

You, that's how people find you.

So stop fighting it.

We can't fight the bus new business that is happening.

We just have to go with the flow with

Mm

of stuff.

hmm.

the point where if you have a song if you don't know what metadata

is, go to YouTube and say, how do I put metadata on my songs?

Because it's a little square that pulls up and says who you are, how

to find you, what the song is about.

And if somebody in the industry, like from Bravo, listens to the song

and wants to see it, they look to see if that information's on there.

And if it's not, they move on.

there's a couple things that, that when people, you never

know who's gonna find the song.

I had two students that came in to do my open counseling the other day and

they said, we're in a band and we have some music out and somebody found our

song and wants to use it for their podcast and wants to pay us $3,000.

I said, okay.

And they're like is that enough?

I said, well, what are you doing with the song now?

Well, it's up on Spotify and Apple.

I said, that's it.

W why would you question that?

Take the money.

It's like, take the money.

Maybe you should be writing for more podcasts.

You know, I don't know what you're writing about.

You know, that kind of stuff.

And so by putting the music out there is where the opportunities come.

Mm-hmm.

gotta keep trying a little bit of everything.

You and I was like, you know, social media keeps changing and stuff like that.

So whether you're on TikTok.

X or Facebook or whatever it is, and just be consistent.

And don't worry about are people seeing it right this second?

If I could get them to post twice a week, I would be so happy.

Right.

they're going, huh?

You know, 'cause I, the one girl graduated and she was saying,

I'm gonna post every day.

And I'm like, we're gonna post three times a day.

And I said, please don't.

No, don't start that.

You'll never do that.

You'll never do that.

You don't post once a week.

Now.

Please don't do that once a week.

My, my artist Harold, since the pandemic I've, we finally

pushed him during the pandemic.

'cause he had to, he plays a lot.

And so, he started doing a two song Tuesday and he still

is doing it to this day.

No matter where he is in the world.

He comes on at five 30, which is a weird time on Tuesday.

Right.

And does.

an original, and he makes up a song on the spot.

So people give me song titles and I text it to, and he picks one

and he makes one up on the spot.

That's,

for 20 minutes.

yeah.

we have about 50 people listening live.

Mm-hmm.

And by the, by the next week we have 1500 to 2000 people who view it.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

now we need to monetize that,

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Get their emails and send them stuff because these are

real fans, that kinda stuff.

And so it's from doing it once a week,

Yeah.

Yeah.

keep doing it.

And now we have all those videos.

So we started putting pieces, those improv songs on our YouTube page too.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, you can take one piece of material and then cut it up and

repurpose it multiple times over

It's not

throughout year of the month or the, you know, and yeah.

It's that.

I like that it, I mean it's creating consistency.

It's, I think in the diversification side also, you know, it's building

relationships, it's building a network.

It's getting out there and not just being, here's me and my music and let

me push it in front of a would be fans.

I think there's more to it than that, right?

We, I think it's, that's maybe tunnel visioned and yes, that's an end goal.

'cause without the fans we're nothing.

Right?

But I think it's promotional.

Work in general, it's relationship building.

Right.

With all aspects of the business.

right,

It's networking with the local music scene, right?

It's collaborating with other artists.

It's building a mailing list for your community.

Like you said, monetizing now what you're doing and capturing that information.

So it's not just reactive marketing.

I think for the artist, it's not just push on social media, hope they hear it and

hope they go to a show or buy the music.

It's let me capture their information and now I can control how I wanna

market to them a little bit better.

And you know, one of still, and you can ask Google, but the email

list is still the number way, one way to get ahold of people.

Sure.

we almost lost TikTok last year,

Right.

so if you are on TikTok and that's all you're on, and any of them can

come back and say, you know what?

We're not gonna be here anymore.

Sorry.

Or they can say, we're only going to do jazz music now, so

Yeah.

luck, you know, kinda stuff.

Yeah.

one of the guys last year, he I've known him for a while.

He was, says, I'm gonna learn social media.

I'm going to put out my new songs and, you know, do my

graphics and kinda do everything.

So, so I said, do you have an email list here?

People go, oh, she's so old school.

I said, do you wanna get an email list?

And he said, he goes, I got some people.

And I said what social media are you on?

He says, I'm on Instagram.

And I said, you're not gonna like what I have to say to you.

but everybody that's on your Instagram, you need to send them a personal

message that says, hi, it's William.

I have new music coming out.

I wanna share it with you.

Would you be willing to gimme your email?

And I said, and always ask for their zip code so you know where they

are in the world kind of thing.

And so he did it and he got 300 emails.

so I, I saw him on social media.

I saw him performing around and stuff and so he sent a newsletter out and

he said, push this button to listen to my music and all that kinda stuff.

And so I saw him, I went out to see him.

I said, so how's it going?

He goes, well, Chris, you know, I spent a lot of money and time trying to figure out

how to advertise and Zoom doc and stuff.

He said, I don't get many like clicks from that stuff.

But if I send a newsletter to those 300 people, of the

people will push the button.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And I said, can you come into my group and say that Because they don't believe me.

You know, it's still the number one.

I don't wanna bombard anybody with a lot of emails, that kinda stuff.

But a newsletter once a month, if a show's coming up in their area,

you know, right close to the thing.

That's cool.

That kinda stuff.

But it's still number one way to get ahold of people.

Yeah.

I post if, and I had a, there was a show that was coming up and one

of my artists was playing in it and he was doing a lot of shows, so the

girl was promoting her own show.

And so she called me, she goes, Chris, I don't see your post up on, on Instagram.

And I said, well, Instagram's not gonna get my people there.

Yeah.

Um, we have to send them personal messages, we have to text them, we

have to let them know it's happening.

We have to remind them.

I said, but a spot on social media doesn't work for us.

Mm-hmm.

was like, oh.

I said, does it work for you?

Yeah.

well, I said, there's a reason why they call it Instagram.

It doesn't stay up very long, that

Yeah, yeah,

So I'm not saying don't do it.

I'm saying we have to do all of it.

If you want butts in the seats, that's what you have to do.

yeah.

Well, it's.

Using different kinds of marketing for different purposes maybe.

Right?

It's the email, you're not gonna be like, this is what we had for dinner tonight.

You know, it's not gonna be the short, you know, the short form

content that is rolling out social, that's what social media is for.

And that keeps people ideally engaged.

It attracts potentially new people.

But it's that end game of capturing their information that's gonna get

you long-term capabilities to market to those people because you're gonna

market the shows, you're gonna market the merch, you're gonna market, you

know, meet and greet opportunities.

You're, you know, things like this.

And I think that's, I think it's so important.

And again I agree with the sentiment that a lot of people think it's

outdated to get an email list going, but because we get so much stinking

email, I get so much stinking email and I could harbor get through it in a day.

And, but I'll tell you the music ones, even if I'm half interested.

I open them and look at 'em at worse.

Real quick, going to see.

Let's see if there's anything I want to know in here.

You know, and I think it's important and staying on top of it.

so yeah, so I mean, and I said I have like three levels.

The first level is you're just writing songs.

You're trying to put a little bit of your business together.

If you can't put your website together, then go get a free reverberation or

band camp so somebody can find you.

You know, it's the big deal.

Just start working on that.

This, believe it or not, to me, the intermittent level is that you put one

or two eps out, like 10, 6 to 10 songs.

You've been out, you've been performing a little bit locally.

That's intermediate to me.

The advance means that you've been going out on the road a little bit, making a

little bit of money, that kinda stuff.

So there is.

I think there's different levels that, but you really have to know where you are.

And so when I did a workshop and I told everybody, okay, if you're

intermediate, this is what you need to do.

And this is what you can do to advance.

If you're advancing and you wanted to get more, this is kind of what you need to do.

If you're by yourself, you just, this is, it's okay.

You just gotta start with that music base more than anything else.

And the other thing is I always give people, 'cause you know, I teach at

school and I always ask probably three weeks in, I'm going, so is anybody

having trouble getting everything done?

They're like, yeah, I'm like.

I said, okay, now you know your schedule.

I want you to pick out, take out your calendar.

I want you to put everything down that you can't change if it's a

dentist appointment, if you are rehearsing or whatever's going on.

And I said, I bet you in your week you'll find one or two spots where you, you

don't know what you do for two hours.

Like on Friday, what do I do from three to five or Sunday morning?

I get up at seven, but I don't really do anything till noon.

So I said, if you can at least take one of those spots, a two hour

spot once a week, and don't give it away so you can write your songs.

So you can do your business.

You will get a lot done in a month.

And don't give it away.

Make sure that you're just, you know, whate, whatever that is

to push your career forward.

Don't, don't give it away.

Yeah.

important and you will get things done.

Yeah.

I, I feel like I can get a lot done.

I have a friend by the name of Deb Rosner, who's a musician.

have never seen anybody do so many things that she has done.

I'm like, you gotta give me lessons.

'cause I have never seen anybody wake up at five o'clock in the morning

and go exercise and then write on, write a new book and then go perform.

And I'm like, uh, girl, I'm not sure how you do it.

Uhhuh.

Mm-hmm.

Plus she has a family.

Oh my God.

Well, there's something to be said though about that consistency.

You know, I think most people.

If you are consistent about anything, if it's okay, I've got to

send 300 emails, I gotta send 300.

We'll use this social media example you gave, I've gotta use, I've got a message,

a thousand followers on Instagram.

That is an overwhelming task.

Oh yeah,

And then, and then you just freeze.

You're like, I, it's too much.

I can't do it.

Well, if you just said, I'm gonna message five a day, can you handle five a day?

Yeah.

and just do it.

And before long you'll look back and go, oh, wow, look how far I came.

So that, I mean, that's just one thing.

If it's like, I need to make one good contact this week in the business that

will help me in my career just one a week, that's a very manageable goal.

You know?

I,

do that.

You could do that on LinkedIn.

yeah.

Right.

even have to leave your house.

Yeah, yeah.

It's true.

It's true.

But then I think those consistence steps.

Are what propels people forward.

And you'll look back a year from now and go, oh, wow.

I never thought but I think people bite off too much at the

beginning and go, A thousand messages, there's no stinking way.

I'm gonna do a thousand messages.

And you go, well, you could if you start now, you know, it's not old.

How do we grow this big tree in our business?

How do we grow this big, huge tree?

You know?

And people are always we use it in the finance business.

Talking about growing your wealth.

You know, people talk about how do I build this big, this big tree?

I should have planted this tree 20 years ago.

Right,

it's like that old proverb.

Well, but you didn't, so when's the second best time to plant a tree plant

right,

Is today.

Today's the second best time to plant.

You know, start now.

Start something, even if it's baby, baby, baby steps.

right.

And you'll, you'll never look back.

Oh, I wish I would've waited longer.

The, the first step is the hardest.

Yeah.

said The hardest is to start, second hardest is to start again.