This week we’re joined on the podcast by Margharita Nehme. Margharita is a Certified Professional in Talent and Development (CPTD) and an accomplished learning design and technology specialist. She holds a Master’s of Educational Technology and has over 15 years of experience in providing results-driven and impactful learning experiences. Her expertise includes creating, implementing, and evaluating training programs, learning blueprints, and technology integration. She’s also one of ttcInnovations’ Senior IDs.

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it.

Okay, I'll make sure I'm all set here. I think we're all set. All right, lovely. Thank you so much for joining the podcast today. I'd like to start with hearing the story of how you first got into adult learning and maybe how things have kind of changed in the industry ever since then.

So thank you for having me, Doug. I'm excited to be on your podcast. So my journey into LND has been quite the adventure. It started with teaching English and French as a second language to civil servants back in Montreal, Canada.

wow. Nice.

So at the time I had a teaching certificate. Prior to that I had started an undergrad in business which just didn't click with me. So I wanted to try something new. And then I figured, you know, why not pursue my undergrad in adult education and linguistics?

wasn't sure what I was gonna do with it, but that's what I did. And then I stumbled upon the EdTech program, the educational technology program that Concordia University was offering at the time in Montreal. And so I was complete fluke, but it got my attention and I completed it. And I'll tell you that it was a life -changing moment for me.

You

Because from there, my career took off. joined Pret and Whitney in Canada as an intern, instructional designer, and then quickly transitioned into a full -time role. And that's where my passion for creating content really took off. After a few years at Pret and Whitney, my husband and I decided to make a big move to Florida. we... Yes.

boy. That's quite a change.

So we were done with the cold and we both love the warmer climate so it was quite the change but definitely a welcome one.

And so, you know, we settled in. I won't tell you what my parents thought about it, but it was like, you know, I had a career set and I was on the right path. I'm like, no, dropping everything, moving to Florida. So, Florida was interesting. did some initially contracts as a technical writer. And then I taught for the University of Phoenix online. It was the Axia College portion.

no.

And then shortly after that, joined American Express as a contract, instructional designer. So really went to various industries, which was a huge advantage for us, right? Because it's a skill that we can take to any industry and apply the same learnings.

Definitely.

So, and then after that, I found First Service Residential, which was my home for 10 years. It was also a new industry. was the, they're in residential property management.

and I was there for 10 and a half years, which was really, really great because I got into more of the HR and operational training and standardizing their training across the organization in the US and Canada.

So that was quite interesting. then, like many people, COVID made me rethink things. And COVID hit, I decided to not leave the corporate world, but more transition to more of a freelance -type role, where I'm still, you know...

Hmm

doing the same job but doing it more freely and having my own flexible schedule and really allowing myself to be closer to my kids and more involved in their schooling. So during this time I also had a contracting opportunity to work for AutoNation and I was there for a little over three years.

recently, joined TTC as a full -time innovator, so very excited about that and can't wait to see what's next.

Definitely. this brings up a question that I'd like to ask a lot for folks who have done a little bit of higher education. What do you think are the differences between higher education as opposed to, let's say, corporate adult learning?

Yes, so definitely, I think one of the main differences, and I had to think about that one because higher read, and for the most part, I don't want to generalize, but...

Sure.

when you think about higher ed students, they're usually motivated and willing to learn because it's sort of a conscious decision that they need to pursue their studies for whatever reason. Whereas corporate learning, mean, sometimes your learners don't even want to be there and they're just taking training because they have to, right? So, so mainly,

Yeah, yeah.

And I didn't, well want to say I didn't create content for higher ed per se, but just the level of motivation is very different between higher ed folks and corporate employees.

Yeah, that's very interesting. how do you, with that understanding of motivation levels being varying, how do you go into the corporate world and develop training that is gonna be able to not only stick with the learner, but motivate them to take it in and utilize it through their day -to -day workflow?

Mm

Yeah, in the corporate training, focuses on specific skills or knowledge that employees need to learn to perform their jobs more effectively, right? So it's usually very tied to measurable outcomes. You know, on the other hand, when you think about higher ed,

it's really fostering a mindset, encouraging students to think critically. I mean, that's one of the topics I taught was critical thinking, right? So how can you think critically and creatively? I try to foster that and to build that mindset with my kids as well. So you usually have a lot more freedom to explore and engage in discussions that aren't directly tied to a job performance.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Right.

So it's really about developing that cognitive skills that your students can apply in different aspects of their lives. In corporate training, you really want to get straight to the point. They're in and they're out and they have a job to do, so their focus is very limited as well. So it's definitely a different pace, a different purpose. But yeah, I think...

Mm -hmm.

In the corporate world, there's a higher focus on practical applications, measurable results, right?

Right, right.

Definitely. And just to get back a little bit to an earlier question, how do you think corporate training has kind of changed ever since you stepped into the role of an instructional designer?

My goodness, mean, it's, what do we even touch on, right? In terms of, it's such a fast pace. And just if you think about the technology evolving and I know I might be all over the place because I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking.

Mm

Ha

Yeah.

Every year when I go to a conference I just see so much evolution and what people are interested in and how the technologies are going. So what changes have I seen?

I definitely a big shift in more application training, a lot more digital. Social media has brought in so much in terms of collaboration and how learners engage with one another versus just, you know, that one -on -one interaction, which is in the past, was most, I think about face -to -face training and it was mostly

Yeah.

you know you're sitting there and you're receiving this knowledge right there isn't

Right, right, you gotta pack it with you, you're following along step by step. It's like an eight hour program, maybe it's a two week program, so you have, you know, a crash course for two weeks, six to eight hours per day, and it's a lot of information to take in, and you don't, you didn't necessarily get to take that with you after the fact. It was kind of, in my mind,

Yes.

Yes.

those facilitator led trainings tended to be more of like, we're going to do our very best to get like maybe 50 to 60 % of the information retained with the learners. And now it is so much more like we're not only is Michael learning changed all of that, but also the just in time type of things where you can always pull it back up if you need to. And I think that that is probably the most.

Yes, my gosh,

successful change within the industry is that learners can now go back to it and they don't have to like sift through, you know, 20 pages in a notebook to be like, where did I put these notes and what was this about? And I remember kind of what this was talking about, those type of things.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, and think about folks who go through weeks of training prior to their job where, you know, and we have a lot of data now, right? So we know that retention is very little when you leave that classroom. You know, like what do you retain, like 8 % after day two or something like that? so it's a lot of, know, are rethinking their approaches to even onboarding and having these

Mm -hmm.

huh.

yeah.

these long weeks and long days of training thinking they're like we're checking the box and you're going through this program but how much of it is are you retaining when you can't even apply it on the job yet because you haven't started? Yes.

Right, because you're not there, you're in a classroom.

Yes, I remember and a lot of it is, some of it in some industries, my husband worked for a pest control company and they had, we used to talk about their training, they had a very robust training where it was, know, some theory was theoretical in parts, but I think 70 or 80 % was hands on. They had these simulated areas like a, you know, a make believe restaurant and where you're actually

yeah.

doing a lot of hands -on training which was really fascinating. When I started with what? yes.

And I would imagine it's much more effective as far as retention goes, as far as just interest in the learning at that point, because you get to apply those skills immediately. So.

Yeah, yeah, I'm a firm believer in the, you know, let me try it and I'll remember approach. Yeah, yes.

Yeah, definitely. So I haven't really had a chance to talk too much on the podcast about this specific area in the beginning process of developing a training program, which is the analysis side of things. So what is your approach to analysis? How do you talk with a client and get to that point of where you even

Understand what maybe the right approach is or what the right direction is if they even need a training program. Maybe it's something else What are kind of the steps that you take when you're jumping into a project to talk with either a new client or maybe An existing client about a new approach to whatever their needs may be

right.

Yes, that's a great topic. So when it comes to the analysis phase,

I would say, and you're absolutely right. You said something that hit the point where sometimes they tell you, yes, we need training on XYZ. And when you dig a little deeper, you just find out that, well, this form is faulty and they can't, that's why they're having trouble filling it out. Or some reason like, if somebody doesn't like their manager, there's nothing wrong with the performance. which is

You

Mm

Ha ha.

Yeah.

Right.

why I mean it's it's really important to I like to get to know the clients and their needs so I would kick things off by having a few conversations to dig into you know what they're hoping to achieve what challenges they're facing

really trying to understand from them what success looks like, right? So starting with the end in mind. What does that, you know, dream goal that we want to get to? And then it's really all about asking the right questions and listening closely. We're so quick to make assumptions, but truly listening. And then from there, when I have an opportunity to speak to the audience, and it's not always feasible, but I ask,

Mm

you know, like who is going to take the training? You know, could we maybe talk to them or chat with them to understand what their background experience level, what they need to walk away with. And you'd be surprised how often those conversations are different. You speak to stakeholders and tell you this is, know, we need, you know, ABC. And then when you speak to your learners or audience, the needs are completely different.

yeah.

How do you square those two potential differences?

So.

So it all boils down to sometimes just going back to the stakeholder and saying, this is what we found. We found that there are gaps in those areas. And before we start developing, getting that alignment and agreeing over what is the end result that we're trying to get to, and then how do we get there? So really,

Mm

before brainstorming solutions, just really understanding, figuring out what's already in place and what gaps need to be filled, right? It sounds simpler than it actually is because, you know, once you start digging, what success looks like might be a little bit different for one person, from one person to another, but yeah.

Ha ha ha ha!

Definitely. And it seems like both sides have to be flexible, adaptable, and to really come to a final conclusion of what the needs are, you have to be able to envision what that future state is, and then find out all of the ways that you can get there, and then finally come into agreement on which path you're going to take, which sounds difficult and could be very stressful.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. It's really finding that sweet spot where your training is both effective and engaging, but then how do you get there, right?

Yes. Along these lines of analysis, you did a really great blog for us recently on selecting subject matter experts. So can you give our audience kind of an overview of the importance of a good subject matter expert and how they can kind of make or break the project and potentially the timeline building up to finishing an actual training program?

It was fun.

underperformed.

Yes, absolutely. So when it comes to working with SMEs, they really are the backbone of your project. You said it, right? So a good SME is somebody who has that, I refer to it as tacit knowledge because sometimes they don't even know they have it and they don't understand why they're the SME. Like, leave me alone. We don't have time for you.

Hmm. Hahaha. Yeah. Hahaha. I got 10 million things on my plate already. What do we... I'm sorry. We can't do an hour meeting with you. Yeah. Hahaha.

Right.

But yeah, the right SME can provide insights that might not be obvious to anyone outside of their field. So it could really be a game changer for the quality of your final product. On the flip side, your SME's...

And we all know how busy they can be. If they're not fully engaged or don't communicate well, it could lead to delays, like you said, and derail the project entirely. So really selecting the right SME. And as I'll tell you, as instructional designers, we don't have the luxury to select a SME, right? It's usually, you're working with, you know.

Hmm. Yeah.

Bob and good luck. it's really and I loved writing that blog and I really hope a lot of organizations read it because selecting that that writes me is is is on them right so you and setting expectations and we've used to say that so much in my previous

Yes.

Mm

life, setting those expectations upfront with your SMEs and giving them, I remember the CHRO used to tell us, tell them what their time commitment is because they need to know this upfront. If you want to meet with them two hours on a weekly basis, let them know. Set those expectations so they don't feel overwhelmed and bombarded with. When you're a seasoned instruction designer,

Mm -hmm.

Right

you do your homework before you meet with your SME, especially the first time, because you want to build credibility so quickly with them. And the more homework you've done, the more knowledgeable you could talk to them about their area of expertise, then you're better off.

You

Yes.

So it's really about relationship building and then not only fostering that but continuing that relationship to make sure that they don't feel like their time is wasted. They don't feel like you don't know what you're talking about. how can they possibly because no one wants to no one wants to to handhold the whole time that I would imagine that any subject matter expert.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

while they know the importance of training are still like, well, I still have a 40 hour work week ahead of me after this. So while I would love to see success in this area or this portion of the company onboarding or whatever, I still have to get my work done. So let's make sure that we're utilizing the time that we have to the best of our possible abilities. So thank you for that. And

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Thanks.

Yes.

I want to talk a little bit about design and development a little bit, but mainly how do you make training engaging? How do you make sure that retention is a top priority? And how can you showcase to a client the importance of building engaging training that is going to make folks enjoy the 30 minutes that they may have on your course or the two hours or the week of courses that they have to take?

Is there kind of like a checklist of sorts that you go through mentally when you're designing a program to be like, okay, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this. How do we make sure that at the end of the day, we're setting folks up for success and hopefully they enjoy the time that they've taken out of their day to do this training.

Yeah, for sure. When it comes to making training engaging, would say it boils down to a few key elements, right? first, you always want to try to keep the learner at the center of everything you do. So I ask myself, what's going to grab their attention? How is this relevant to them, right?

and really emphasizing the why, which is often left out. And then you think about, how do I focus on making the content interactive? So whether it's building in scenarios, stories, big buzzwords now, quizzes, discussions. So how do you make it feel more like a conversation than a lecture?

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

I love that. I love the idea of it being a conversation as opposed to you're just this receptacle for information. It's a two -way street and I love that idea that it's a conversation as opposed to just I got to take this in. I got to make sure that I remember as much as possible for the assessment at the end of this.

So tonight, yeah.

Yeah, and then mostly, mean, having that, I don't like to use learning styles so much, I think that's dying off a little bit, but really, it's all about mixing up the media, so having the right balance of audio, visuals, and text, adding.

Hahaha

Mm

And maybe more of the application piece. is there an opportunity for learners to apply what they've learned in a practical way? So thinking about not only is your content relatable, but how is this going to be useful for me? How can I apply it? And showing that very early on in the process. I almost said process there.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

That's This isn't a side, but I do a lot of voiceover work for TTC and we had a really great Canadian client back in the day that absolutely Loved our voiceover actors from Los Angeles because we made sure that every sing every time they were like it's project It's process got to hit it. It's got to be there. So sorry Every time I think I now every time I hear process I'm like, ooh

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Are they Canadian or are British? That's awesome. We don't tend to get past the development side of things usually here at TTC, very much focused on that analysis, design and development phases of the Adi model. But when you are able to get into those later phases of the Adi model, the implementation and the evaluation, what are you looking for?

Right.

when it comes to success for the end portion of a project. I'd imagine it varies from client to client as well as from project to project, but are there benchmarks that you shoot for that allow you to see what success means and that you can take back to the client once everything's been wrapped up and you're able to showcase? Okay, well, we started here and this is where we got to at the end of this training.

Mm

Yeah, 100%. And you're not alone. We don't often get to do that. And the reality of things is usually, we need this yesterday, and let's go, go, go. And you don't even get a chance to implement because you're on to the next big project. But you're absolutely right. when we look at implementation and evaluation, we really, and it varies.

Mm

Hahaha

Right.

greatly by project and by client. But in general, I'm looking for a few key things. So first, I want to see that the training is actually being used and it's resonating with the learners. Is there a way for us to see if they're engaged? So through maybe interviews or just going around and...

and asking, are they applying what they've learned on the job? I won't get into, you know, Kirkpatrick's levels of evaluation that's technical, but we'll keep it, you know, I'm big on feedback. So from a learner's and stakeholders perspective, you know, what are we hearing? Are we hearing that the training is making a difference? Are there any areas that need tweaking? I'm...

You

Sure.

So, interested in X API and I know not many, and that's probably a different, a different day, different conversation. But that's an area that fascinates me. Like how are they engaging with your content pieces and, and that whole reporting mechanism and, you know, not, not many companies are playing in that arena yet, but, it's, really fascinating. Yes. The data you can pull from that. but, lastly, just touch on the.

Hahaha

Yeah.

Hopefully someday.

clear benchmarks. I try to, depending on the client and the project, I try to bring those up very early on.

Mm

even in that analysis phase, right? The what are you trying to achieve? This is when we can touch on things like specific performance improvements or business outcomes they're hoping to see. So that's gonna give us a good sense of whether the training is hitting the mark. So really getting a mix of both qualitative and quantitative measures that guides you in determining what success looks like.

Yeah, because I mean, that's the whole point of doing the training in the first place is to you're looking to fill gaps within an area within your corporate world. And if you don't set those areas of success up at the beginning, or if you're maybe shuffling that around during the time of even the design of it and then through the development, how can you possibly know if you nailed those benchmarks or if you've nailed

what you thought was success at the beginning. I really like the idea of booking bookending the whole process with did we meet success here? Did we meet that success here? You mentioned go ahead.

Yes.

Yes. No, no, sorry you're trapped in it. It's just so easy to pinpoint early on in the process and then bring them back. Remember we had talked about your retention level or turnover, whatnot.

Mm -hmm.

So those measures are really easy to pinpoint early on with, know, what is driving that training and what your, you know, where are you seeing, where are you having challenges and how can we fix those? And just trying to think of those data points early on and then have that benchmark very early on before you even roll out the training. So you can see what's going on.

definitely it sounds like you're setting yourself up for fairly easy wins as well like those seem to me it just seems if you set up those actual areas of success first you can immediately see within the first month or so of the training being released like yeah this is actually working so yay yay and even if you have to go and change things or just adapt down the line I mean

Yes.

All training is adaptable. A lot of what we do here at TTC is taking training that we've done two years ago and updating it to whether or not regulations have changed or just they found that, ooh, we just need to tweak a couple things here. It's about maintaining the success level while the world is changing, while your corporate infrastructure is changing, and while you're bringing on more and more new people. So.

Yes.

Yeah.

Sure.

100%. And then time to an earlier point, was training really necessary? Because if you don't, conversely, if you don't see those trends or the results trending in the right area, maybe that wasn't your solution to begin with.

Yes.

Exactly. Which seems like it's such a difficult to me being an instructional designer and especially going in on the analysis side of things seems like such a to me very stressful portion of the of developing a training program is like, I got to know exactly what success means to these folks. I got to deliver them something that that gives that success and then

Yes.

once they've implemented it. And I've moved on to the next project. I'm always thinking, did we do the right thing? Are they going to come back in a year and be like, actually, we need to redo this entire program. So y 'all are much stronger folks than I, when it comes to that. I feel like I'd be too stressed out the entire time. You mentioned earlier that you've been going to conferences and ATD was

No.

Well, it's been a couple months now since then. I would love to hear some of the highlights, some of the things that you came across while you were at the ATD conference this year and maybe what you took away the most from there. Was there any like cool new softwares, cool new ideas for continuing to adapt training solutions into a

much faster pace learning world and also folks are have access to YouTube and to tick tock and those type of things. So how do you keep folks learning within the constructs that you've developed and make it so that they're getting similar success from those type of programs as they would to like, you know, if I if I need to like change the oil on my my car, I would just be like, all right, well, let me go to YouTube real quick.

Yes.

make sure I look up the right model and that type of stuff and go from there.

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, just in time learning. Right? Yeah, so it's absolutely, I mean, I make it a point to attend at least one conference a year. Last year was a little bit busy. I went to three.

my gosh.

But yes, so I made it to the ATD conference this year. I actually took my family with me. We hadn't been to New Orleans, so we turned it into a family trip right before the end of school. Yes. I hope their school won't be listening to this.

very cool. Yeah, that sounds awesome.

Look, they were their learners too, and they needed to better see things from that, you know, 10 ,000 foot view. Yeah.

Yes, exactly. Yeah, field trip. But yes, it was a blast. mean, the energy was incredible. As always, it's great to be surrounded by so many L &D professionals. One of the highlights was definitely the focus on AI. And I'm sure you've heard this before and it keeps coming up, but it's really starting to take shape in our industry.

Mm -hmm. Yes.

And I saw some really cool tools that are leveraging AI to personalize learning experiences, which is super exciting. Even, my gosh, Rise and LinkedIn, like what's coming with Rise.

Mm -hmm.

My goodness, Vyond is leveraging AI. I mean, it's everywhere, right? So the other thing that stood out to me was the focus on learner engagement and how we can make training more interactive and fun. So there's a lot of, you know, buzz around gamification, immersive learning experiences. And I know it really sounds nice, but it's not.

You

Mm -hmm.

you know, it's very costly. So it's not very implementable. But really, yeah.

yeah.

Yeah, are great because they'll be like, we're going to shoot to the moon with this new learning program. And then you tell them the cost. they're like, well, hold on just a second. Maybe not quite to the moon. Can we get to the clouds? And then that'll work for us.

Yes, but if you know if they have the means to get to the moon, I'll build the shuttle, you know. Why not?

Mm -hmm. Yeah. I love that.

Yeah, so it's really cool because the companies who are doing immersive learning and leveraging the AR and VR technologies are really, and it depends on the industry. If you're in the aerospace industry, I hope you are.

Mm -hmm.

Totally.

goodness, supply chains and things like that. mean, medical industries, pharmaceuticals, definitely.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, well you need that hand, you truly need that hands on training. And I was just talking with Brian Melvin the other day about AR and VR and what got him into it was that he was working with a company that does repair work for elevators. So a very high stress environment, a lot of moving parts and you have to know exactly what to do in certain situations and the only way to really teach that

is through what they were using was VR at the time building true constructs to where they could utilize their hands in the moment so that they would never feel like so they would never feel like they didn't have the the wherewithal in the actual situation to fix something because if you don't fix it right well you have a massive problem and you probably have a lawsuit on your hands so so that's aerospace industry

Yes.

medical industry or even supply chain wise like you said it's having those options is vital to the success of not only the learners but it's also a much safer way for them to practice as opposed to having someone just jump into an MRI machine and try to fix something that may have broken on it.

Yes.

Right, exactly. And what's really exciting for us instructional designers is that a lot of these new VR and AR authoring tools are more and more, they're easier to use. So they're more available and they're, I don't want to say easy, but it's easier to use those creative, immersive, hands -on training experiences without needing to be a tech wizard.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, what several years ago would have seemed like magic to folks who had never gotten to use any of these programs is now like, I spent a couple days really getting into this and then I'm like, well, I feel comfortable actually developing in this.

I know that.

Yes.

Yeah, there is an authoring tool and I apologize, I don't have the name off the top of my head, but it's someone, I'll look it up and I'll get back to you. It's in either the UK or Ireland, somewhere in maybe Spain even. It's in Europe where it's a WYSIWYG type of authoring tool for VR experiences and it's super fascinating. Can't wait to get my hands on it. There's a free trial so we'll...

Mm -hmm.

very cool. Alright.

playing with that.

Love some free trials. So with that in mind, where do you think the future of L &D is headed? What do you think is going to be the next new era of learning and development? We've gone so far from the days of where it was just facilitator -led training. Where do you think we're headed?

Yes.

my goodness. Right, I wish I had a crystal ball to see what was coming next. Right?

Now this is forever by the way, this is on the internet so...

Me too.

But if I had to guess, I'd say that the future of L &D is probably going to revolve around personalization and flexibility. And these two words keep coming up. Companies are realizing that the one size fits all approach doesn't cut it anymore.

Right? your employees want learning experience that fit their needs and schedules. Like you said before, you know, just in time learning, you know, jumping on YouTube and looking up how to, you know, make cheese from raw milk. I'm experimenting by the way. Yeah. So employees want learning experience that fit their needs and schedules. so there is that big shift toward on demand.

Ooh, very fun. Okay.

I mean micro learning has been around for a while, but on demand adaptive learning technologies. And one of the biggest trends I feel is going to be more towards social learning collaboration. really beyond the traditional training environments, there was a study that was done, I think it was last year at a conference or maybe even two years ago with Facebook and

Mm -hmm.

Gosh, I want to say noble ed, but I can't remember where. had cohorts collaborate in real, real life environments and they saw really an uptick, an increase in retention and on the job application and the training was a lot more effective.

Mm -hmm.

just because they were able to collaborate with their peers and even beyond the training, keep that cohort going, which was really interesting to see. So I think there's that knowledge sharing aspect in real time that's really important.

Yes. Well, here's the thing. Not only are you upskilling folks, getting them familiar with your processes and those type of things from a learner standpoint, you're also building culture within your corporation, which is something that corporations are always trying to do, always trying to find ways for the people that have worked together day in and day out, meet not only in a pleasant, hopefully pleasant environment,

but also an environment where they strive to, to make their department better, more efficient together as opposed to, one individual to another. So I think that that is really one of the coolest aspects of, of social learning is that not only are they retaining the information that you give them, but they're also having fun doing it. It's like, it's like going into an escape room and you know, really finding

Mm

Yes, exactly.

doing that problem solving together to where you get to the end and you have that excitement every single step of the way there's something exciting about working together and finding those solutions together and I while the build out to these type of training programs may be a little expensive the ability to keep your people in the job or move them up into the higher you know the

doing the classic rising on the corporate ladder type of thing. It's so much cheaper to retain your employees as opposed to every four or five months having to find a new employee to fit that mold and to fit that culture that you've already tried to establish.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. you said, they won't, they'll want solutions that not only upscale their workforce, but also keep them motivated and excited about learning. So yeah, definitely those, you know, immersive interactive experiences, gamification, whatever they are. And I love your idea of the problem solving, you know, escape room.

Yes.

I mean, think about, yeah, think about the new generations too and how, know, Martin, my kids are avid video gamers, although I limited as much as I can during the week. And you know, are, we are too, right? And this is how, you know, we engage with content that way.

Ha

Yeah. Good luck. Yeah, exactly.

So just as a total aside, this was something that came from our community. If we magically gained eight hours in a day, so we went from a 24 hours to to a solid 32 hour workday, what would you do with the extra time?

my goodness, give me 24 more hours. But yeah, that's a fun one.

If I had an extra eight hours in a day, my goodness, I'd definitely dive into some new hobbies I've been eyeing. Like I said, I haven't done it yet. I'm still in the YouTube watching phase. I would love to experiment with making homemade cheeses and just spend some time gardening. But I say, Jesus, we just discovered this gold mine 15 minutes away, these families in...

Okay.

and who thought, know, Florida, they're just so close. But they're in, you know, sitting on acres of land and with, you know, cows. So we started buying, you know, fresh milk and I have no idea what to do with it. I'm like, do I boil it? I not boil it? So YouTube is usually my go -to. So we have access to so much of it. So I think, yeah, the next podcast is how to make butter and mozzarella cheese.

Awesome.

Yes, I would honestly I would love to get some of our previous guests on at some point to do just let's talk about hobbies and focus mostly on food very big into bread making myself. I would love to do cheese making i've done ricotta and i've I burrata is one my favorite cheeses to to find on a on a delicious meal out with with the family, but I would love to be able to make fresh mozzarella and burrata cheese because

Yeah.

You pair that with some fresh sourdough. boy It's so good Yes Okay. Okay next TTC all team meetup. We're gonna bring some sourdough. You got to bring some cheese We're gonna find somebody that's gonna bring some baked goods. I love this And Before I get you out of here today, this has been a wonderful conversation. So my last question is

They're my favorite. You make sourdough? I was gonna say, my gosh. So we'll combine your sourdough and our mozzarella. We'll meet somewhere in the middle.

Definitely.

How do you stay innovative in your approach to adult learning? How do you keep things interesting in your work so that each project is new and exciting? I would imagine some of that is just your love for learning in general, but what keeps you driving?

It's a question. And likewise, by the way, I had so much fun. But I try to keep up with the latest trends. like we said before, they're ever evolving, right? So attending conferences, reading industry publications, and then add to if I had eight hours in a day, I would love to read a pile of books that I bought at the conference. And they're just right there, but no time, no time to read.

Sure.

Yeah.

But I think it's just so important to experiment with new technologies and just keep things fresh and exciting. it's mixing up methods, definitely collaborating with others in the field. And that always sparks ideas for me and approach them like, I want to see how they're using this tool or that tool.

It's all about staying curious and open to change.

Yeah, I always say if you're not learning they're not learning so I feel like That's really what makes life fun is learning something new whether that's for your job or whether that's your hobby just finding new pieces of knowledge to take in and then Hopefully retain we all try I've watched to watch a lot of bread making videos. I don't retain everything but

Yeah.

at least finding some little nuggets here and there to really help move you along, whether that's in your career or your hobby. I think that's the most important thing. So Margarita, this has been wonderful. And anytime you want to come back on the podcast and talk cheese, we'll do it.

bookmark them.

Thank you, Doug, likewise. This was very cool. Thank you so much for your time.