Kathy McAfee is an executive coach, mentor and multiple book author - known as America's Marketing Motivator. She has built a huge network of clients over 17 years in business, through her purpose-driven work and creating real relationships. Today, Kathy’s work is aimed at helping women and people of color to be culturally aware, be competent, and overcome barriers to leadership.

Kathy’s quote: “Networking is more than an event or activity. It's a strategy for a successful life” has really been the framework of her work all along – and resonates so much with my values … as you will hear in the episode.

Learn more about Kathy at her website: www.americasmarketingmotivator.com

Learn more about Kathy’s signature program: www.TheFearlessLeader.com

Connect with Kathy on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/kathymcafee/

In appreciation for being here, I have some gifts for you:

A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:

An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by taking the

3 Card Sampler – you won’t regret it.

AND … Don’t forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and be eligible for my

complimentary LinkedIn profile audit – I do one each month for a lucky

listener!

Connect with me:

http://JanicePorter.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiceporter/

https://www.facebook.com/janiceporter1

https://www.instagram.com/socjanice/

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Cathy, Hello everyone, and welcome to this

week's episode of the relationships rule podcast. My

guest this week is Kathy McAfee, and I am so excited to talk to

Kathy, and I'll explain why when I have introduced her, because

she is a dynamo in a field that is very near and dear to my

heart. She is an executive coach, a mentor and author, and

is known as America's marketing motivator. She launched her

company 17 years ago and built a robust client base through

relationships, referrals and purpose driven work, and today,

she works with organizations to prepare for the future by

building more diverse leadership pipelines and with professionals

who want to seat at the at the leadership table. Her signature

work is the fearless leader program, an eight week group

mentoring experience designed to help women and people of color

overcome barriers to leadership. She teaches them how to leverage

their connections courage and confidence to build more

successful businesses, careers and futures. And I think that's

a piece of work that I really want to dig into in a bit,

because I think it's got such relevance. And Kathy is the

author of several books, including one that caught my

attention called networking ahead. So first of all, Kathy,

welcome, welcome. Welcome to the show. Thank

you, Janice, so great to be here with you and

your listeners. Thank

you so much. And I have to just share with my

audience that Kathy and I actually connected on LinkedIn a

few years ago, but nothing of any relevance, like we didn't

really, I don't think have a conversation, per se, I don't

know, you know, we're always prone to saying yes to people

and not really doing much with it. And and I had followed Cathy

in her in fact, I found some in my in my files of your

newsletter, because it was all about networking, and I was

teaching networking, and so I loved what I heard. I must have

heard you speak somewhere, and that's when we connected. And

just recently, I've been doing a campaign to reconnect with

connections on LinkedIn, which is such an important piece that

even I don't do as a networker often enough. And through that

reconnection with Kathy on LinkedIn, we actually have had a

conversation, and here we are today, and that's what I love,

that reconnecting with people is so important. So the first thing

I want to ask you, though, is about your your take on

networking in the sense that you have a quote that I love more

than anything, networking is more than an event or activity,

it's a strategy for a successful life. And that, I think, was the

basis of that book, and I want you to speak to that, because I

couldn't agree more,

that has been a key message. In fact, it's

almost been a quote to me. I have said it so many times to so

many groups, and I believe it so wholeheartedly. And I think one

of the reasons that people dislike networking is because of

those weird feelings that we get inside ourselves when we're at

events talking to strangers small talk. Why am I here? And

that's how we think of networking, as this awkward

experience at an event, and we don't like to do the activity,

but if you raise it up to its strategic purpose, it is so much

more than that. It is a strategy, much like we have

strategies to grow our business, to advance our careers, be

essential how we're going to build the thing that we care

about. So if you look at networking in a higher platform

and start to treat it like a true business strategy, then all

that weirdness just goes away. It's like, let's get on with

this building of the network and these relationships.

Yes, and I think, and I may have gotten this from

you, I don't know, but when I was looking at teaching, and I

did, I taught networking courses to people in the Chamber of

Commerce, locally and and business, small business owners.

And I always used to say, you know, when you the work starts

before you go to the event, right? So what are the things

you need to do when you get there? And that's part of the

strategy, right? And I always said there are five people you

need to meet in an event. And I don't know what your thoughts

are in this, but for me, it was the host, the speaker, the the

the registration person, because they could point you in the

right direction. And then two hubs, I called them people who

know everybody, and so if you can connect with those people,

that's, you know, you're nodding your head. My audience can't see

that. So tell me your thoughts on whether you say I love

it. I love it. You know, I'm a student of

networking. I just learned something really important to

like. I used to tell my my folks, that. They just need to

kind of create a low benchmark. If you're going to go to an

event, come away with the least three have three meaningful

conversations and three connections that you can follow

up on. You do not have to follow up and meet every single person

at that event that would be overwhelming and impossible. I

do love Janice, how you've kind of targeted who those key people

are, and you're right. The host, absolutely, the guest speaker,

yes, and so many times as a guest speaker, people don't,

they don't, but the ones that do, they get our attention. And

speakers are an interesting group of thought leaders that I

think would be really good to have in your professional

network. Yeah.

So I always remember another important

thing, and maybe you could speak to this, because when people,

small business owners, are becoming they get the

opportunity to speak in front of a group as well, and perhaps,

and when they go this happened to me with it with somebody that

I know, and and she was very good at what she did, but when

she got up in front of the room, she was definitely going outside

of her comfort zone. And and good for her for doing that, but

she would sort of wait in the background till it was time for

everyone to sit down and then for her to speak. And I would

say to her, go and work the audience before you get up

there, because then you can involve them from those mini

conversations that you've had. But you see, for somebody who's

not comfortable with it, she probably wouldn't have been able

to do that anyway,

right? Brilliant, brilliant advice. When we speak

it in groups, we want to be of service to the audience, as

opposed to me, me, me, I look at me. I'm the expert. You know,

you want to connect with your audience. It's another form of

connection, one to many, but it really is always one to one. So

by by, if you will, working the room or just introducing

yourself and and finding out who's in the room before the

event. Couple things happen. You get out of your own head and you

stop worrying about your presentation anxiety. It's not

going to help you anyway, so it warms you up as well as gives

you a sense of who's in the room. And some of those you

know, conversations that you have before you speak can be the

ones that come up and talk to you afterwards, because now they

want you to succeed, right? So great, great advice. And yes, we

all need to do that. There's so much anxiety with what am I

going to say? How am I going to introduce myself? We stop

listening, we stop learning, and we're no longer curious about

other people. We're just worried about ourself. Yeah, that is a

recipe for disaster. So I love your focus on curiosity. Janice,

I think it is kind of a part of the DNA relationship building.

It is, it is totally, I can't help myself,

actually. And sometimes it can be, you know, you ask too many

questions. Janice, you know, but it is who I am. So. So what

would you say, then, is the path to a more fearless networking

approach, or to being that fearless networker?

I love it, and I love that you said path exactly

what it is. It's like a road. It's a journey. And as I was

thinking about this idea, the book Who Moved My Cheese, oh

yes, yes, classic book, if you haven't read it, it's a short

book. It's a parable. It's fantastic for anyone who needs

to get out of their own way. And so the storyline are literally

about these little mice and these little people, and they're

in a maze, right? And they're stuck in what they think is

their comfort zone. They're hiding in a corner with a maze,

and they're afraid to go out. They're afraid to go on the

path, for fear of, I don't know, danger, right? Meaning, ah,

people are scary, and so in networking, we can just kind of

hide away. And think of the pandemic. When we all got locked

down, we literally kind of had an excuse to kind of be by

ourselves and hide and yet even that, the path became virtual

networking, and we had to intentionally reach out to

people, and actually became quite easy. Er, less timeless,

money and global, you know, global possibilities of reaching

out intentionally, to keep those networks alive, to reconnect, to

meet new people, to get curious about people. But just like

those little mice in the book, you got to leave your little

corner. You have to be courageous and take that step

onto that path and the next step and the next step and the next

step, and before you know it, you're really having a good time

in the maze and you're enjoying your networking practice.

Yeah, that's that's good advice. That's

great. I've forgotten about that book, actually, that was a long

time ago. Um. So I know I'm going to say, I want to talk

one, one more question around this networking piece and that

that would be really around some of the mistakes that business

owners make when networking, and it happens a lot. So What? What?

What do you see as the biggest mistakes? My

first and foremost mistake that I see over and over

is just too transactional, or just too much in a hurry to

yeah, get my card, buy my stuff, do this for me, there's no

relationship building. It's just purely it's the deal, right? And

I always you know, when we take the time to build the

relationship. There'll be so many deals in the future, you

know, you'll be giddy so you can't rush to a transaction,

because then you're just selling the relationship short. That's

the first mistake. I think the second one is that we ignore our

current network. Yeah, we chase shiny objects and new people.

And, I mean, that's a classic. Even in new business

development, we think that new prospects are the path to

success when it's really active clients, inactive clients and

existing prospects, which are people that know us and we know

them, but we haven't done business. That's that's the land

of opportunity, not chasing strangers, so ignoring your

current network that you have built over years. Big mistake,

big mistake that small business owners and professionals do. And

then the last one, I would say, is just inconsistency, a lousy,

lousy follow up. And I don't mean to be judgmental, because

I'm right there with you. It's well, we're distracted. Our

network grows. How do we keep up with it? But consistent follow

up and pre work, as you also mentioned, essential to making

you really an all star relationship builder, follow up

is the key, and you get to decide what your follow up plan

is. Create something that works for you, that you can replicate.

That's easy. Have 123, follow ups, and you don't have to

invent it every time. I

think that that that's so valuable, because

those three things are so important. They're so simple.

You know, don't be so transactional. Think about the

relationship, building it first, because that will bring you more

fruit in in the long term, and ignoring your current network, I

have found over the last year in particular, starting to

reconnect with people, as I mentioned in LinkedIn, has been

huge. I have gone back to people that you know, have said, Oh my

goodness, it's been so long. Hey, now's the time I'd like to

look at this. And so they come to me with the prospect of work,

and it's like, oh my goodness, where was I? Forget the timing

is everything, and it's their timing. So if you're not going

back and checking once in a while, then the timing will

never you'll never be in front of them at the right time. And I

always use a phrase that came from a company that's near and

dear to both our hearts, I think, and it's to stay

connected and be remembered. And so if you stay connected, and

you're in front of them, particularly with a tangible

touch every once in a while, as opposed to an email that gets

lost in the rush. Then, then you'll be remembered and and so

I think follow up and again, yeah, I'm just as guilty as the

next person in not being consistent, but we need to go

ahead. Well

building, I know exactly what you that origin of

the the inspiration you were just talking about, because I

happen to be receive a beautiful, send out card from

you. Very personal, lovely, and it's on my desk right now. But

one of their key philosophies is to act on your promptings. So if

you think of someone, don't file it away, put it on the to do

list, like, pick up the phone, reach out, uh, text them, let

them know you're thinking about them. It doesn't have to be a

big meeting, right? It's just I was thinking about you, and I'm

reaching out in whatever form it takes, exactly, exactly your

promptings. Otherwise that thought comes, it goes, and then

three years later, you're like, Gee, whatever happened to

Janice? You know, I thought about her a couple years ago.

Exactly. That is more of a serendipity in the moment,

mindfulness, networking strategy, and you can't do it

all day long. Otherwise you'd be distracted. You know, 24/7 but

they're meaningful. They are meaningful distractions because

they're relationships that you care about.

And I actually like to when I'm training on on

the the card sending piece, I always say, who needs to hear

from me today, you know, and it's either at the beginning of

your day or the end of. Day, because you've either had all of

these conversations during the day, maybe you need to respond

with one of those, or maybe just somebody comes into your mind.

Something made you think of that person. So having the tool and

the trigger to be able to just make it happen right then

quickly is what you need to do. Act on those bondings. Love it.

Love it. So your work right now has shifted. And I love this. I

love this. I mean, it's all around people and networking and

becoming to leverage those connections and teach people how

to do that through your program that you're doing now, the

fearless leader program. And I'd love you to share with my

audience what that's about, because not only are you doing

the leadership piece, but you're bringing in an important piece

right now, which is about forgot the word I was going to use,

but, but bringing in people of color and people who are and

women who are being underserved in a lot of ways, to

Yes. So when I first launched the fearless

leader program in 2020 it had to go all virtual, because that's

the way we were going to do business for the foreseeable

future. And so, you know, I started to develop this

leadership development program where we amass leadership skill,

we increase our courage, we bolster our confidence, and we

we get our businesses and careers back on track. And as I

kept doing cohort group of 10 and 12 people at a time, I

started to realize a who, who is coming to the table to do the

work and the value that they held inside of them. And so I

get really excited about working with professional women and

people of color. And again, the the collision, or between what

was going on in the pandemic and racial injustice, and, you know,

the near demise of democracy, all the things that were

happening in the world, it kind of just woke me up to say, I

have an opportunity to merge my work with my personal mission,

and it took a bit of courage, I'll tell you down is to

actually say, instead of I work with people, Hey, anybody, I'll

work with you. To I focus on working with women and people of

color to help them get a seat at the leadership table. And to do

that, we have to overcome some barriers, a lot of external

barriers. Yes, we can't do much about those right now ourselves,

but we can work our internal barriers, things like fear and

the imposter syndrome and skills that haven't been developed, and

networks that are not developed, and positioning that's that

hasn't been attended to. So, so there's so much as individuals,

we can do to get out of our own way and to overcome barriers,

and we gotta, we gotta work on that. So to me, the fearless

leader program is that self awareness piece, that self

reflection piece, that personal development a leadership

development piece that we all need, not just when we're

starting our careers and not just when we're at middle

management, it's throughout your life. It's like networking. And

by the way, Janice, we do study networking. We call it building

productive relationships. It's in week three of the eight week

program, and absolutely paramount to a leader, because a

leader cannot create success by him or herself. They need

people, and you have to have productive relationships, warm

and optimally functioning inside the workplace and in the

community and across the globe. Networking. That's what it is.

It's bringing people together, exchanging ideas, creating

opportunities, collaborating. That's what a fearless leader

needs to do, which means you've got to get out there and build

those relationships. So the

thing that comes to my mind, though, when you

speak of and yes, I think it does, you're niching down the

market, but it's also being brave to say who those people

are, because there's so much. There can be triggers around

that, in in people. And what was I going to say? Oh, that when

you're working with women of color, people of is it just

women?

I would say, right now the statistics are, I'm

getting about 95% women, absolutely. I have always loved

working with men, and they are absolutely anyone, anyone is

welcome to come join this program, so long as they'll do

the work and and honor the about the rules and boundaries of how

we respect each other. Alright. So cool.

Okay. So what I was thinking, though, is I

remember back to I was doing some work at local junior

college at the time here around networking, and I was asked to

come into this, this professor's class. That was a very. Diverse.

It was about diversity and inclusion. I think the class of

the day, I don't think it was called that back then, but and

we were doing networking, and like in person networking, and

we put them in groups, and we walked around the room and we

talked about things. And it was really interesting, because I

did not walk in those people's shoes, and I did not come as an

adult to another country that was completely strange and so

forth. And in this case, I know it's not quite the same, but

there is some of that in the sense that how do you like? My

eyes were opened when I watched a networking group and the women

were standing back because they were supposed to be behind any

men that were in the in the room based on their culture and what

they had learned and, and they were Middle Eastern and, and it

was just, this is not how it works here. So how do you

approach that? So do you get what I'm getting at here? I

do, I do, and I lovely. And that's one of the

benefits of intentionally building an inclusive and

diverse and, dare I say, global network. You get to learn about

the world. You become cross culturally aware and competent,

and you're going to see these cultural differences. And rather

than just looking at the lens of in America, we do it this way.

Yes, exactly. You suddenly understand kind of the backstory

and the social conditioning and values that other cultures have,

and you become actually, there's a potential that you could

become more diplomatic by having an inclusive, diverse global

network. So a couple years ago, I realized Janice that my

professional network looked exactly like me, all women, all

white women, all hard driving professional type a women. And

that was really fun and energizing, but it was, it was

too like, it's almost like a financial portfolio. I had too

much stock in one thing, and it could blow up. So I

intentionally set a strategy. There's that word again,

strategy to diversify my network, and I was keen to get

to know people that were not like me. And I was very keen to

get to know African American and Caribbean American people, women

and men. And interestingly, I also have always wanted to learn

more about the experience of indigenous people and Native

Americans, and I expressed that to you. I had a small learning

with a group called dig deep that was part of a big Mother's

Day movement fundraiser, and I loved the work they do bringing

fresh water and indoor plumbing to the 2 million families in

America who do not have indoor plumbing. Hello, this is

happening in our country, and majority of them were on on

nations and tribal land, and Native Americans without access

to clean running water, without indoor plumbing. So that was

kind of like an awakening. So I became curious, and so I

expressed that to you, and boom, you think of someone in your

network that you recently met, and you said you should meet

Valerie. This is how it works, folks. This is how the acting of

the promptings. You facilitated an introduction on LinkedIn, and

because you were bringing us together, there was now more

reason for us to act on that introduction. It was not as it

was a warm introduction from Janice. And so then Valerie and

I connected on LinkedIn. We exchanged a couple messages, we

set up a virtual coffee chat, and boom, we're on the telephone

with each other, getting to know each other, building that

relationship. And you know, within 30 minutes our call did

go on, because we were really enjoying our conversation. I

realized she was a fearless leader, and I started to

appreciate what she was doing with her work, and I offered her

a scholarship to the fearless leader program,

which is so amazing. And

then, of course, I had to tell you, because I

wanted you to know the power and value that you added to two

other people's lives, and then thereby the people in their

lives. So when you really let relationships rule in your life,

and you become a fearless networker, you're going to feel

this, this power that you have to bring people and opportunity

together and, and that's some of the thrill that you get. You get

payoff just from that feeling,

you know, because it was so cool and, and

actually, that brings up a point of when you are truly one who

connects people and wants to be that person. It's more than just

being a networker. It is being a connector. That when you start

talking to somebody new, you're thinking, how can I best who can

I introduce them to? How can I best serve them? What would be

that's what I was doing in that conversation with you. And it

just she came up because I was so impressed with the. Work that

she was doing when I met her, and actually, I'm glad that we

that it came back up, because the person that introduced me to

her, I'm going to be speaking to next week, and it's all it goes

around. Yeah? It's

a circle of life. Yeah, you know, just your your

ability to connect people and do what you do now, it looks so

effortless and natural, but you've been working on it for

years. It's your practice. It's also your superpower. You

know, I have to say right now my mom is watching

because I really learned it from my mom. My mom was the she had

no idea, but she was the, the best networker in the world. And

my mom was so cared about people so much that when she went on

vacation, she didn't send us postcards. She sent them to the

butcher and the fishmonger, and honestly, just people that she

made them smile when she went in their store. So she wasn't going

to be there for a while, she'd send them a postcard. Who

did that? Your mom. Your mom the fearless

networker. Yeah, and amazing. What a great role model. And

that's also as business owners and leaders, we have opportunity

be like your mom to role model what relationship building

should look like in the 21st century, and what it can look

like and how again, it's we don't have to be totally

selfless, because when we build relationships, we also benefit.

We can ask for what we need. Other people are more likely to

help us because the relationship has been formed. So we do

benefit. It's mutually beneficial, but we have, we do

have to give first, and to be of a giving, helping mindset, and

to make sure also that we know what it is we need, so that we

can express it clearly. Because I often say to clients, people

can't read their your mind. They don't know what it is you look

like. You have it all together. They don't know that you're

really trying to develop and you're looking for a partner

that will help you with this technology. Hey, I I know

someone. People. Know people. And so back to that

transactional thing. Yeah, when we transact, I look at you, you

look at me, and we try to see how many dollar signs we can

exchange. Yeah, what you want to do is you want to look at the

network behind the person, because that's where, dare I

say, the real money is. That's where the opportunity is. So if

I build a trusting relationship with you and I take care of you

and care about you, I'm more willing to lend my social

capital to you, right? And you're more willing to open up

your social capital, AKA your network, to me. So behind every

person, no matter what their circumstance, unemployed in

transition, file for bankruptcy, going through divorce, whatever

kind of the Oh, poor them, they have a network, and they're a

human being, and they're worthy of our time and curiosity and

and we can all help each other. So that's that's kind of the

magic and the the humanity in networking.

I think that the piece around that though, that I

still hold close to me is I, well, let me put it this way,

sometimes when you go to networking events, online,

offline, whatever, someone will immediately want to network you

with someone that they've just met but they don't really know

them, okay? And that's fine. They're trying to do you a favor

and so forth. You're looking for, you know, a house cleaner

or whatever. And they just met one, and they but if i i have a

really good, let's use that as an example, if I have a really

good house cleaner, and, you know, they're like gold. So you

don't really like to give them away to just anybody, right? But

you wouldn't connect them with somebody, just anybody you

right? You have, you protect your network to make sure that

the connection is a good one. So you don't just connect people.

You connect people when it makes sense, and you value both sides

that you have to ask first before you connect them.

Yes, yes, yeah, getting that permission. And

with certain people, that's really important. Others don't

mind. Yes, kind of receptive. But every time you lend your

social capital, you make introductions, you are putting

at risk your reputation Exactly. You're like a banker, right?

You're giving loans out. Don't do it willy nilly. You got to

qualify. I hate to use it like a banking term, but you know, you

qualify that person. You make sure that's a good fit, and then

then you put it together, yeah, but you do have to be careful,

yeah, right, yeah.

No, that's, that's, I just wanted to be

clear on that, because I feel that you know, when you're

connecting people, the person like that you said that you're

lending out, that's your social capital you have. Protect that

and respect it enough that it's going to not waste that person's

time, so to speak. I mean, they're not guaranteed, but, but

still, it has to be a good fit, and I always like to do that. So

Kathy, you've written a quite a few books, and I'm curious, is

there another one in your future?

There is another one? I'm so glad you asked,

motivating me. So I've written four I've two under my name, and

two that are co authored. So I've written networking ahead,

stop global boring, a presentation skills book, and

then in a collaborative projects, I've written

sharpening your point with my strategic partner and friend,

Lisa Wallace, and I wrote defining you with my business

coach, Mark LeBlanc and my publisher, Henry DeVries. And

it's that has been a very successful book. And I love,

actually, I've come to love the collaborative book, writing, co

authoring experience, because guess what? Get to work with

someone, build a relationship and learn something from someone

else. It's so cool. So we are working on a new project. The

title of the book, it's about fearless leadership. But the

title of the book is The fearless leader, how smart women

overcome barriers to leadership. Nice and my co author, I'm

really excited to work with her. Her name is Rosemary Pato, she's

actually business consultant, works with large companies and

executive teams, and she's actually just releasing her

first book, so this will be her right on the heels of that

second book. So we are I've been working on this for, actually,

for a year and a half. And you know how some things go right?

We got these big ideas, big projects, and then they just

kind of start to sit and get stale, and we become afraid and

we don't know what to do. And so even a fearless leader can fall

victim to fear of rejection and failure. So it's been really

help reaching out to my network to find a really good co author

to be my, my buddy, my accountability buddy. And then

by doing that, I mean that kind of experience, bringing

something, you know, creating something together, you're

always going to be bonded. So so that book's going to come out.

We we're going to really fast track the manuscript this

quarter, the fourth quarter should be out in early to mid

2023 and again, I'll be connected with my signature

work, the fearless leader program.

They have to come back when your new book, Oh, I'd

love

to, I'd love to. I'd love to. I just noticed

on your on your speaker sheet, that two things

that stuck out for me. One, that you are survivor, if I may say,

of ovarian cancer. Yay, yay. That's a huge one, and that's

not a very pretty thing to go through. I have one of my best

friends did is also an ovarian cancer survivor, and the

statistics aren't great, so I that's just amazing, and things

are still good in that. I don't know how long ago that was,

but 11 years, 11 years survived. That's what

There you go.

And the other thing that stuck out for me, I

know these are smaller things in the big in the big scheme of

being an economics graduate from Stanford University, okay, but

what I noticed was second degree black belt in Taekwondo. That's

right, little on me, five foot four and a good

day, yes, and that's a network too, I mean. And when I learned

about Taekwondo, I went because we moved to a new community, and

my husband was going to enroll, and he said, Look, you can come

with me, or you can stay at home. It's your choice. So I

kind of went, alright, I want to stay in a home. I'll go with

you. And I met so many wonderful, lifelong friends. But

the interesting connection between a martial art and

networking, okay, martial art always, always, I know it's a

way of life. That's why they call it Taekwondo, judo. The do

means way of life, and so you live your life, not that you're

you're not running around beating people up. It's self

defense, but it's, it's a, it's a philosophy of living about

respect and patience and and modesty. Had to work on that

myself. But networking is a way of life, right? It's something

we we not just go and say, Done tech, yeah, we live our lives in

this relationship, building philosophy so it and not, not to

mention taekwondo also helped me overcome my physical fear. And

so in terms of the fearless leader, it's, you know, I can be

a big scaredy cat, but now that I have 12 years of training, I

at least, kind of maybe know how how to respond. Should that

situation ever arise. So we all have to work on our different

forms of courage, for sure, for sure. Well,

this, this is like we could go on forever.

There's so much I can learn from you. As well as we move forward,

I think that Well, let me ask you this before I go to my last

question, do you find now with this work that you're doing,

that you are looking at or looking for independent, small

business owner people to be to bring into the fearless

Leadership Program, or is it? Is it corporate still? Is it bigger

companies?

It's a diverse range. I do have corporate

employees where their company pairs, pays their tuition, and

they're looking at that person to develop them and have them

grow into leadership. I also have independent consultants,

small business owners that need that that work on themselves so

that they can grow and build their business. And I have

nonprofits and people that are starting movements. And what's

what's so cool is when you have a, what's called a cohort

learning experience that you're learning along people who are

not from your same company, right? They don't walk in your

shoes. You have such an opportunity to grow and expand

and that group mentoring aspect. I'm not just the only one

teaching, right? Everyone is teaching because everyone has

experience right, different place, yeah, so I will say we

have had the age range for the fearless leader so far. My

youngest fearless leader is 17, and was and wrote, actually, a

business plan to launch her career as she went into college

and just she's someone to watch out for. And then to date.

Quote, my oldest, my most seasoned is 68 probably almost

near 70 now, and she lost her job during the pandemic and

started her own podcast.

Love it.

She's like, Yeah, she's a rock star, and she's

learning all those things. So she's not done yet, and and

everyone in between. So I can't tell you the exact level of

leadership experience. We all need to work on ourselves. We

all have a fearless leader inside. We're all called upon to

overcome some hardship, some roadblock. We all have a dream.

We all need help. So this program we work with, you know

who's willing to do the work. Who comes What's your dream?

What are you building? What's in your way? And let's work

together to overcome those barriers and roadblocks and get

you building momentum on your business and career.

That's amazing. And so one last question for

you, Kathy and I will also have all of your information about

your program, your website and your LinkedIn. I will put on the

show notes so people can find you if they're interested in the

signature program. There is a website, the fearless

leader.com, and just, what would you say? What? What's your final

piece of advice to my audience? And you know, what would you

like to leave us with?

Awesome well, I would say today is the perfect

day to renew your networking practice and commitment. So

start networking now, today and never stop. Never stop. Make

networking a way of life. Make networking and relationship

building a core strategy to build your business, to build

your career and to build your life, you just, you have to

overcome that fear if you still, still gets in the way. Do it

anyway, afraid. Just build relationships and listen to

Janice's podcast every time they come out, because you're going

to learn tips and and new ideas to really make this part of your

successful life.

You're the best. Thank you so much, and thank you

so much to my audience again for being here. We couldn't do it

without you. And remember to stay connected and be

remembered. You.