In the apocryphal story of the Hartlepool monkey, the residents of the town hang a shipwrecked monkey for being a French spy. Why do we search for scapegoats and how can we prevent ourselves from blaming the wrong person?

In this podcast we examine the phenomenon of scapegoating and try to understand the human desire to find someone else to blame for our problems. We tackle the concept of blame, look at how to avoid attributing it erroneously and consider whether the monkey was in fact guilty.

A few things we mentioned in this podcast:

• Was a monkey really hanged in Hartlepool??
• Miscarriages of Justice Registry
• Narrative Retribution and Cognitive Processing
• René Girard and the ‘Scapegoat Mechanism’
• Framed: Utilitarianism and Punishment of the Innocent
• Wiki: Sanctions
• Freedom House rights and liberties rankings

For more information on Aleph Insights visit our website https://alephinsights.com or to get in touch about our podcast email [email protected]

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Nick Hare and Chris Wragg of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing the Hartley Pool Monkey. Okay this is hot off

the newsstands then I take it Chris, go for it. Yeah from the Napoleonic era, yes very current, but no the reason it is slightly current is because there was a recent by-election in the constituency of Hartley Pool and it received a lot of interest in the media and so the story of the Hartley Pool Monkey came up again because it's one of the few famous things which have happened in Hartley Pool. But yeah essentially this is the kind of legend, I mean in some places it's cited as a historical event but I think it's safe to say it's a legend, that during the Napoleonic wars there was a French ship wrecked in Hartley Pool Bay and the only survivor was the ship's mascot which was a monkey apparently dressed in French military uniform and that the people of Hartley Pool came to the conclusion that it was indeed a spy for the French and they tried and hanged the monkey. Unfortunate simian. Yes exactly. I thought it was that they didn't even

realise that it was a monkey. Well that's also been said that because there was so there'd been

so much anti-French propaganda and they had been portrayed in a simian fashion they may have thought it was a that's what a French person. I mean I've got a number of questions because the first

of all that everyone keeps talking about it as a monkey but the statue that I've seen which is supposedly depicts this beast is it's clearly a chimpanzee. Yeah right well I suspect if they were

if they were confused enough to have thought it might be a spy they probably weren't applying rigorous animal taxonomy. Okay well I mean it is probably worth saying isn't it at this point

that not only is there no evidence that it did happen I mean there's plenty of evidence that it almost certainly didn't happen I think in that no one talked about it until a musical comedian in the mid 19th century made up a song about it. The first documentary evidence is after he's gone. Yeah and then apparently he just sort of used to make up a different song about every town he went to and that one stuck but also I think someone's actually looked at the ships that were wrecked in Hartlepool during the Napoleonic era and none of them were French. No that's right according to

record and not only that there are also other tales of monkeys being hanged in other sort of

towns and villages around. Isn't it awful horrible when facts get in the way of a great story. Yeah

especially if the only thing your town is famous for never happened. But what's quite good about

this is that actually you know the people of Hartlepool have in a sense been scapegoated or scapemonkeyed in the same way that poor old Hangus was. Because of what's just

happened do you mean in terms of voting? No I mean the fact that they've been tarred with this

idea that they're moronic and you know and it didn't actually happen. So yeah but they've embraced the legend so you know they're obviously happy with it.

So but look this nicely leads us in I believe because what do we really want to talk about Chris?

Well I think we really want to talk about the idea of scapegoating and why we feel the need to blame things and why we sometimes are quite happy to misapportion blame.

So yeah I think that's yeah there's there's plenty of blame flying around these days. Nick what have you got to say? You've got some data or other ways you want to lead us? Well I just

I think it's worth probably thinking about this as constituting three questions which are interesting. First of all what does make us keen to blame people as Chris said you know why is blaming people for stuff something that we like doing? Are we taught to do that you know or is it some something more primal than that? Is it then the question of is that urge a sort of adaptive one assuming it's an urge? Is it one that actually has a rationale or is it some side effect? Is it the result of some cognitive bias that we have that you know is a negative side effect of some other positive adaptation? And then perhaps more controversially and intriguingly is it ever right? Is it ever morally right to punish the innocent monkey or otherwise? So yeah I mean just but in terms of data I mean there's obviously lots of data about miscarriages of justice obviously a lot of them we won't ever find out about. It's a very good database actually of miscarriages of justice in the UK. There's several hundred documented examples from the last 50 years of which about 26% involved a false confession or an unreliable confession which is interesting including a lot of the very high profile ones. So you know and it's fun it's I mean just noting my own reaction to that I sort of think well if you're going to confess to something but these are people who are who are kind of you know mentally ill a lot of the time people who kind of are literally like confessing to things or you know have a kind of histrionic tendency and like to put themselves into dramatic events. 21% are misleading forensic science and about 18% involve inadequate disclosure but by far the most significant cause is unreliable witnesses. Something like 50% of miscarriages of justice come from witness statements that later found to be unreliable. So yeah and these are I mean 440 so about 4 in 10 of these cases are murder so it's pretty serious serious things. So we have we have a lot of we've got miscarriages of justice happen quite a lot and I suppose we have a legal system which is designed to protect against that by having a whole load of processes and sort of red tape associated with it which I think a lot of people constantly express frustration with. You know why is it that we have to effectively give the benefit of doubt to you know the nth degree really need you know you've got to be beyond it's no good just thinking this guy's probably guilty you've really got to be beyond reasonable doubt. And a lot of people I think find that a bit frustrating they feel like the playing field is tilted in favour of miscreants. Why don't we just get on and punish these people and I think that so that which sort of ties into that first question really of where

does this urge to punish people come from? Let's cut to the chase I mean why blame? I think isn't the answer simple because it might be that you've got to first of all you might be right actually the person might have actually done the thing that you're accusing them of but secondly and probably what we're really talking about is you might have an agenda as an individual or a society and the agenda might be to detract attention from yourself or it might be because you know I don't like immigrants and therefore this is all immigrants fault. So that's why people do this because there's an agenda right and as you were talking actually I was thinking about until recently I worked at my job I worked in two teams and one of the teams I really disliked working in the reason why is they're always blaming each other and people always trying to blame other people and it's usually when something's gone wrong and you don't want yourself to be the victim of blame and sometimes it is that person so isn't it always because there's an agenda? Isn't that it? Well I think you're right in the sense

that I think there are multiple causes for blame basically and you know psychologists have looked at this there's no one compelling unifying you know theory that exists but that point that you're talking about the opportunity to explain failure or misdeeds while maintaining one's own positive self-image so you know something bad happened associated with me you know it wasn't my fault it was somebody else's fault you know by attaching the blame to somebody else you're both avoiding the punishment that comes with blame but also you're maintaining your own image of yourself as being you know infallible which is something you know we need to do for sort of resilience purposes yeah and I think that's sort of borne out by you know if you actually look at the term scapegoat and what it actually is to do with and this notion of you know attaching society's sins to a you know one of a pair of goats and the one that's sacrificed is not the scapegoat the one that runs off into the wilderness carrying you know the sins of the community on its on its shoulders is the one that is the scapegoat and it's that that notion of I think in those circumstances where it's a you know it's a goat it's fairly it's fairly harmless in that you collectively say okay there is blame apportioned here let's pass it on and let's move on we'll attach it to something I like that and we'll send it forwards right obviously the problem comes when you attach it to a person who is going to be punished for that for that you know sin and and they're not the ones who who were responsible for it so I think there's this element of self-preservation of moving on but I think there's also a kind of element of displaced aggression so you know it's like something something bad's happened I'm angry you know the kick the dog theory of sort of you know my my you know my work isn't going well I'll kick the dog and that will make me feel better in some in some way that you know it's about and and that's obviously you know a more sinister sort of idea than than than moving on from from a from a problem so it's interesting so Rene Girard who's a French

philosopher saw saw the development of religion and mythology isn't essentially a way of channeling this impulse that you know you could blame bad things on Satan and demons yeah and that kind of thing to stop them taking problems out on each other and I think you know but I think that that indicates or at least relies on leans on the idea that retribution and the urge to to inflict it is really a fundamental urge and and I think that's borne out by you know neuro neuroscience as far as I'm aware people really genuinely enjoy hearing stories about people getting retribution like the retribution aspect is a really key part so a story where someone gets away with bad behavior is is even though it's the sort of basically the same story until right at the end is not considered enjoyable at all but people actually you know get dopamine from hearing about retribution and I think one of the key elements is that the the person who's punished has to know that they're being punished for something so it's no it's no good reading about someone who was evil and then and then suffered a terrible mishap they had to suffer the terrible mishap and know that it's because they were bad and I think even babies have an urge like a bit if you if you they do these things they they when they've shown sort of little cartoons and things to babies where you know a little square will run up and steal the the triangle's ball and then if the square gets rewarded for it the babies get angry whereas if the square gets punished they like that you know they kind of clap and smile and so I think so my thing is that this is something really fundamental I mean you know at the very much the animal level and and I think that so that brings us on to the question of whether or not it's you know is it adaptive is there a kind of yeah and so this I mean this boils down to the I think the game theory so the there's a puzzle there's a paradox which is that retribution is costly and has no immediate benefits you know at the time you do it so why would we have evolved to want to in you know undertake a cost for something that has no benefits can you give an example well I mean yeah so so if illustrate it for us well if if from a sort of evolutionary environment you know the idea would be that a you know that one of the your one of your fellow you know chimpanzees comes and steals your bunch of bananas the point is that well you know and he eats them well you've got nothing to gain by going and punching him in the in his stupid chimpanzee face was he a french chimpanzee though that's yeah exactly well he's got uh you know your best bet is probably to go and find some more bananas and just be a bit more careful next time but instead we have this urge to go and to go and punish the other chimpanzee um for taking our bananas right but there's nothing to get we're not going to get our bananas back okay punched in your stupid yeah so there's a cost without any benefit at the point at which you you want to take that action um but the the rational I mean the sort of game theory rational is that we have evolved to to want to inflict punishment because it makes it credible right it makes our it makes the threat it protects our future bananas yeah because because so the point the fact that people know we enjoy inflicting retribution um means that we don't even have to it's not a cost benefit analysis you know we're not we're not going to go oh I've weighed it up and it's not really worth it we're just going to really be strongly motivated to go and do it and and that then means it's a credible threat whereas if it was based on something which was you know uh on a kind of more you know an act by act cost benefit analysis it wouldn't be a threat because just eat the banana and say well there's no point what's the point of punching me you know banana for a banana just leaves everybody hungry as Martin Luther King didn't say but you know uh so that's the uh that's the um that's the the rationale I think uh the game theory explanation

for it and the third question wasn't it I don't know if you're ready to move on to that but you

were talking about you know does it make sense yeah yeah well I mean so so then okay what about false positives if you like um and I think there is an argument to be made I haven't seen this kind of written down anywhere um but there is a plausible argument that it makes sense to have more false positives so to blame more things than uh than actually deserve blame to go around seeing more blame than than there is if you like and it's let's say that things happen for random reasons and malign reasons so you're you're in a kind of world where so you're it looks like you someone's taken your well I like bananas we're with chimpanzees we're in the world of chimpanzees at the moment so let's stick with that um and you uh and you know your bananas gone missing and it could be that that uh you know the it's the same chimpanzee from earlier it could be that he's come and stolen them or it might be that you know that just they fell off uh the tree or a you know snake took them um but the thing is that uh if it's the second example well there's not much you can do about it but if it is the first example then you then there is benefit in going and stopping him from doing it again right so you know if you blame someone and they're innocent then that one person gets hurt but if you don't blame someone who's guilty then actually lots of people can get hurt because it means there's a malignant actor in your in your group or if you like someone is out to get you so I think there it probably is a rationale for until the

point at which the the the risk of being hurt by somebody dishing out retribution exceeds the risk of uh a malign actor not being being punished yeah so you have to get that balance

right I guess yeah yeah so so I mean I so I think I feel like you don't have to work very hard to explain where not only where the urge to exact retribution comes from but also why it's a bit oversensitive you know why there's why we why we feel more of an urge to blame things than we actually probably ought to but yeah I mean so you the the last question there really is is it morally right to punish the innocent sometimes yeah I mean I I and I don't I don't even necessarily

feel like there's the I mean it's clearly very very closely tied to to morality I mean you mentioned religion and uh you know there are all sorts of manifestations like you said the the devil being the original scapegoat you know the fallen angel blamed for for the existence of sin um you know obviously at the heart of Christianity is this notion of somebody being punished to absolve us of our our sin um but then you've got these weird just I I'm just gonna have to take

you know vicar's words for that because I don't I still don't really get it yeah no me neither um

but but there are even weirder manifestations of of of this notion of um of you know blame blaming the the innocent for things or at least innocent people taking on um the the punishment for uh for other sins um have you ever come across the um the concept of a sin eater oh I've heard well yeah so so I think it does have origins in in uh Mexican um uh kind of you know um I think it's Aztec culture but also uh in in kind of Christian practice in you know parts of deepest darkest Wales um where where in in that kind of um uh ritualistic setting um somebody would turn up to the funeral of the recently deceased and eat a a you know a ritual meal at the at the funeral um and they would then take on the sins of the person who had just who had just died um you know so obviously not having conducted any of their their sins but this idea of passing it on which is a very weird concept do you know what wait wait hang on but what do they what does

that mean does that mean they're then guilty exactly so they are then guilty so they would

then do the the you know time in purgatory on their behalf or or whatever be careful this weekend Nick

when you're accepting dinner invitations okay yeah well but hang on is what if the sin eater then dies and somebody then eats their sin well they're taking on all the other guys yeah it's a bit like

it's a bit like um Conkers you know you get you get somebody left at the end who's holding all the sin yeah yeah um the the sin sink um but sorry i'm sorry were you about to go on to about to go and make it well i was just going to say there's another another example have you ever come across the the um well you must have come across the phrase whipping boy but you know yeah its origins no so essentially um it's uh some so so with Charles the first for example his whipping boy was William Murray and they're they're essentially like a friend of the the prince who can't be the prince can't be whipped by their you know master or whatever because of the the status differential so the idea is that you have this person who is is flogged you know when the when the prince sins you know does something wrong uh the the whipping boy is is whipped uh and the the prince then sort of sees this and thinks oh that's a that's a shame i won't do that again because otherwise my friend

gets whipped or not as the case may be well i would imagine that because uh british toffs are completely absolutely bonkers that this is considered an extremely high status role yeah

yeah yeah i think i think uh uh william murray got an earldom uh right as a result of being uh charles the first whipping boy but so there are all these these things that exist where you pass you know you knowingly pass blame on to somebody who isn't you know who who doesn't deserve it and yet that seems to to serve a serve a purpose so it is obviously deeply uh you know there's there's a deep sort of moral element to um and i think these examples show that we have a kind of

distinct idea of a category of a thing like of a sin or blame being a kind of thing that you can obviously pick up move around and transfer between people um which is an interesting model it just feels very physical it feels like it's related to the idea of you know spoliation and the idea that something can be impure you know that that you can but that you could remove the impurity and and and move it somewhere else you know but it's a thing there's such a thing like the pink stain in cat in the hat exactly yeah but i i think just going at this question of like uh so i think those are like obviously we have evolved ritualistic ways to transfer blame to people who are you know innocent um but i think there's there's also i mean the problem utilitarianism struggles with this quite a bit and you know utilitarianism is obviously quite an intellectual theory in that it tries to it tries to give you a moral calculus which is in effect a sort of objective standard for whether or not a particular act is good or bad um and and inevitably it where it really you know struggles is when you have these deep seated moral intuitions because they aren't based on a cost-benefit analysis um and uh you know the the sort of utilitarian approach to um analyzing punishment is that well it has value because it deters future crime it may have value in rehabilitation um that that you know the the there is a struggle with trying to explain why for example you would you would punish um the nazis after world war ii because you think well then they're not going to have another chance to do it and it's very unlikely you know we're spending a huge amount of cost here to run these Nuremberg trials and it's very unlikely there's going to be a new bunch of nazis turn up who we can deter and even if even if there were they'd be unlikely to be deterred by it you know um so but the the the sort of uh with the response within utilitarianism is is this this issue about sort of rules versus acts which is that well actually instead of trying to um be utilitarians at the basis of one act then another act in this case punishing someone we should be utilitarian in our design of rules and say that well it's better to have a rule that you get punished than one way you don't or one way you only get punished if it seems like it's worth it but there's other there's other i mean there's there's a whole um another class of kind of difficult um problems i suppose the the most famous example within philosophy is called the southern sheriff and philosopher called mccloskey came up with this and it's uh the idea that you've got a sheriff in the deep south in the olden days you know and a black guy's been um falsely accused the sheriff knows he's innocent but there's going to be you know a race riot in which you know let's say 10 black people are going to be killed um during this race riot if he doesn't if he doesn't hang this innocent guy so he's kind of got faced with this choice of do i do i you know hang the innocent person uh and potentially save lives or do i let the idea of you know punishing innocent people being wrong take precedence and i i so yeah so i think i think there's a there's a um that is a challenging that's a really challenging case i think you have two moral intuitions that conflict and i'm not sure there's an obviously right answer

um we're gonna have to sort of leave it on that question as it were because i've got another question i've got another question okay that i want us to i mean before i go on to that is there anything any burning anything burning you want to say before i close it out with this question

i suppose the only the only the only thing i'd say is that it's interesting that this problem of does it is there a you know the cost benefit analysis for for punishing punishing people uh versus the sort of it's obviously right to do this um is something which i think is incredibly prevalent particularly in international law you know when we look at um well why are we you know why have we got sanctions on this country not that country and um so i had a quick look at freedom freedom houses uh list of sort of which are the most um or the least you know that the countries that the worst rights and civil liberties records and whether or not they had sanctions and um uh you know you so you've got basically the countries which end up with sanctions are are bad but poor and friendless they're they're western sahara sorry they have much oil yeah somalia um places like that right um the places which are up there but mysteriously do not have sanctions on them places like tibet yes tibet um but also um uh you know russian satellites as well sort of belarus and then places like crimea and eastern donbass and uh so basically you could you i mean the calculation being okay well we will impose sanctions but you know if if you're too scary if you're the uh you know if you're a member of the p5 or if you're not if you're a former soviet state we probably won't so i feel like that that pragmatism about yes well punishing wrongdoers is the right thing to do unless it seems like world war three yeah yeah exactly

brilliant uh okay i got questions round things off um if i've got two questions you can answer one or the other or both um for you what have you ever been blamed for that you definitely didn't do okay um and or what have you blamed someone for that you then realized oh um they

didn't do it and i'm wrong oh i can i can tell you both from primary school actually okay um nick you kick us off right so when i was um about uh it must have been about eight uh i was in the playground there was this girl called nicola in the year above she was big and beefy you know girls are bigger than boys aren't they at that age she was she was quite a bruiser anyway one time i think we were having some sort of arguments some sort of scrap in the playground and she got me in a headlock so she had her arm around my neck nick versus nick yeah yeah exactly so she had i was i had my back to her she had her arm around my neck and in an effort to evade her grasp i simply pulled at her arm and was able to escape right cue her screaming you know rolling around on the floor like a formula one like a like a uh you know football player uh and um and uh and then a complaint from her mum because apparently she'd broken her arm in uh in a skiing accident oh really and i and i'd i'd now you know through through my evil attempt to escape from being strangled by her had had now somehow you know set it off again and um and i had to write a letter of apology to this so this nick if you're out there nicola i hope you're sorry um but i but in if i okay so my the thing i i still feel bad about is that um i uh when i i took i had a stormtrooper which i took to school you know this is during the not a real one i hope no it was a terrible shot stormtrooper uh and i lost it and then about a week later i saw kamal hussein playing with a stormtrooper and i i in my mind it was so obvious that he had taken my stormtrooper and that's why i'd lost mine and he mysteriously acquired one and i told the teacher that he'd taken my stormtrooper and um and i think she confiscated it and gave it back to me and and i looking back i don't think there's any real evidence that that was my stormtrooper so i'm really sorry kamal if you're out there i'm really

sorry about the stormtrooper i'll get you another one i i can't help but feel that somehow this is um nicola in the year above her fault that you you you blamed hussein uh what's his name tomorrow come on for for i i just feel he scarred you and and and set you off on the wrong path in life i think that's what happened there yeah um shall i go or do you want to go yeah you go i'm still still thinking so yeah i think what's interesting by the way we talked about um sanctions against countries and power and i think in a lot of these examples it's going to be when an individual without power gets blamed for something right and that's how this sort of burning sense of injustice and unfairness can sort of come from but anyway in my case i've been blamed for many many many things in my life um some of which i didn't do um but one of them was i remember um when i was a kid my mum was furious i was about i don't know five years old maybe was i think it was a mars bar had mysteriously gone missing and apparently a rapper had been found in our household and and my mother ate in the mars bar very good um and um yeah i just remember my mum really going to town on it and um and just sort of interrogating both me and my brother to the extent and we were going no it wasn't me to the extent that we um my mum said right well we're going to go to the police station we're going to you know have this out and i remember my brother at the time think going wow she's really you know this is quite serious but let's go and off we went to the police station and we were sitting outside and going right now i'm going in i'm going in i'm going to talk to the police and we said okay let's go um and then of course we didn't go and see the police and and to this day it's sort of you know a family you know story hang on does anyone ever fessed up no one ever found out what it was but you're saying it definitely wasn't you definitely wasn't me definitely wasn't me and my brother insists it wasn't him in terms of blaming someone else well um when i was a kid we had we always had dogs in my family and one morning i i got up and walked downstairs i think i stood in a pile of crap or something well it might have been vomit i can't remember which and so i grabbed this dog um um and um yeah gave him a hefty smack and and you know put his nose in or whatever all these sorts of things and what was a bit odd at the time this labrador was that he was seemed a bit sort of because usually when a dog's guilty you know you can tell pretty quickly and he was just actually quite surprised and it turned out that we had another dog who was um because it was always this first dog who was always the it was always this is just like the tale of Flewellyn and Gellert from Welsh folklore yes yes yes yeah well not exactly wasn't the dog being heroic in that

one if i yeah he kills the dog because he thinks he's eaten his or attacked his son and then it

turns out the dog was defending his son from a wolf yeah yeah it's not quite the same um but anyway it turns out it was a different dog it was a different dog and so i'd beaten the wrong dog basically i and i still feel quite guilty about that yeah you should um chris yeah well i i don't

really have a story of um me casting blame uh at somebody i i i i gen i generally tend not to think that um you know i i suppose i'm quite slow to apportion blame because um yeah i i i think it's it's something i seem to consider quite a lot for some reason but um and also i know it's never ever one person's fault but there are a couple of occasions where i have uh been um blamed in in situations uh the first was the um the great wallet theft of st peter's church of england school um where a uh wallet was stolen from a from a changing room and um prime suspect basically they they rounded up five people who they the usual suspects the usual suspects and they shook them down and and basically like there was me sat on my own they got these five people they'd obviously boiled it down for some reason to the fact sat on your own with your new gold chain and your rolex watch yeah and peter smith's id badge but um yeah um so yeah uh they they basically sat down and said we know you've done it um you know because uh you know we we've managed to work that out so you might as well just tell us now you know that you've done it anyway they're trying to burble you up for the total black exactly so so i obviously you know went well no i didn't you know but anyway it turns out they obviously presented they did this with um with all the children which i thought was was pretty morally reprehensible to do that to kind of kids as a as a you know a posse of adults sat in a in a intimidating horseshoe um so that was that was uh that one did they find the culprit in the end yeah yeah they did yeah or at least somebody coughed to it anyway under the pressure you know whether it was them or not i don't know but um but yeah and then the other one is um the time i was playing table tennis around at at um a um a not anymore friend's house um and we were playing table tennis and his parents were quite um quite sort of disciplinary and not not very nice uh and we're playing and the ball went on the floor and i trod on it and you know you know what happens to table tennis balls when you when you tread on them they are that's that is it that is the end of the ball it's the ball there's no coming back from that there isn't there isn't um and uh his uh mother came in who was a bit like uh norman bates mother really um and she came in and was like what you know how did this ball get broken and and this kid goes well he he did it like and i just i even though i actually did do it i just couldn't get my it was like this unwritten but also also the fact that the implication would

be that you'd said i don't like this ball i'm gonna stamp on it rather than just yeah it was

unbelievable i thought that's uh you know that like i say you just as a kid you never let your friends take the blame from your parents i thought that was like anyway that was that was the end of

that friendship well yeah quite right too what a scumbag i feel outraged on your behalf chris on

both of those um occasions yeah yeah there's loads more i could talk about but i won't

and that young boy's name dominic cummings yeah

okay we'll stop there as always thanks for listening if you've got any thoughts or suggestions for topics you can email us at podcast at aleph insights.com we'd love to hear from you if you've enjoyed the podcast what should you do nick have a guilt-free tap on the old like button very good uh thanks as always for listening i'm fraser magruder we've been here with chris wragg and nick hare of aleph insights until next time goodbye