Shownotes
Episode Summary
Eric Lang is the President and co-founder of ZipGrow, an organization that educates, equips, and empowers local farmers to grow better food for their communities using their patented ZipGrow technology. Today, Harry and Eric talk about the importance of educating the masses on the overall AgTech industry, why local is better than organic, and what ZipGrow is doing to fix the broken food model. Eric expounds on one of the latest offerings from ZipGrow, ZipPods, and advice he has for aspiring farmers looking to break into the industry.
Thanks to Our Sponsors
CEA Summit East - https://indoor.ag/cea-summit-east-2025/
Indoor AgCon - https://indoor.ag/
Key Takeaways
07:13 – Eric Lang joins the show to discuss his traditional farming background, founding multiple companies, what he learned from early leadership roles, and his mindset as he entered the AgTech space
13:37 – How Eric was able to apply his experience growing up on a dairy farm to AgTech
18:03 – Eric’s approach to building a world-class team and fostering an impactful culture
20:46 – Eric’s growth as a leader and the various skills necessary to become a successful farmer
29:15 – ZipGrow’s current offerings and the markets they are serving
36:29 – The inspiration behind ZipPods and branching out beyond leafy greens
43:59 – Advice Eric would give to those looking to enter the industry and where Eric sees the biggest growth opportunity
48:50 – Upcoming projects that ZipGrow is working on
55:23 – A tough question Eric has had to ask himself recently, what keeps him motivated, and a specific ask he has for his colleagues in the industry
1:03:38 – Harry thanks Eric for joining the show and lets listeners know where they can go to connect with him and learn more about ZipGrow
Tweetable Quotes
“One of the reasons I love being out in this area, even though we have maybe less of a choice of employees, when I find those other farm kids who are talented and skilled, they can and do do everything.” (17:28) (Eric)
“I think the reality is coming from traditional Ag, as much as I do absolutely believe in the product, the industry, changing the world, and feeding people, I also come from the perspective that it has to have an ROI (return on investment). You can’t just hope and feel good about doing something great and not ever actually make money.” (22:16) (Eric)
“We have everything from online hobby, to school and education, which is a big thing for us. We’re very committed to educating students and young people to make sure they understand and have an opportunity to get connected with the food they eat and understand where it comes from. But, of course, our bread and butter is still commercial farms.” (29:32) (Eric)
“I still absolutely believe that proper indoor warehouse farms are the most economical way of growing indoors that you can get. But there are certain situations where that doesn’t necessarily make sense.” (38:47) (Eric)
“A big focus for us is actually really getting into high-margin, high-volume crops, especially due to the nature of our actual equipment. It’s well suited to traceability. It’s completely clean and completely repeatable. We’re actually getting into strawberries, which we’ve been doing for six months and we’ve been killing it. But also, we’re getting into the next step, which is bio- pharmaceuticals and bio-cosmetics.” (40:27) (Eric)
Resources Mentioned
Eric’s LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-lang-2235ab128/?originalSubdomain=ca
ZipGrow – https://zipgrow.com/
ZipGrow Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/ZipGrowTM/
ZipGrow Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/zipgrowinc/
ZipGrow YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/c/Brightagrotech
ZipGrow LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/company/zipgrow-inc/
Connect With Us
VFP LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/verticalfarmingpodcast
VFP Twitter - https://twitter.com/VerticalFarmPod
VFP Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/direct/inbox/
VFP Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/VerticalFarmPod
Subscribe to our newsletters!
AgTech Digest - https://agtechdigest.com
The Indoor Farmer - https://www.indoorverticalfarm.com/
Horti-Gen Insights - https://www.hortigeninsights.com/
Sponsor Links
Cultivatd’s Website – https://cultivatd.com/
Cultivatd’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/cultivatdco/
Cultivatd’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/cultivatd
Cultivatd’s Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/cultivatd/
🎙️🎙️🎙️
Podcast Production and Marketing by FullCast
Discover the best podcast services in the world at The Podosphere: https://www.thepodosphere.com/
Mentioned in this episode:
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews
Transcripts
$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
Speaker:Autonomous weeding robots dominated, and John Deere made 2 acquisitions in 3
Speaker:months. A food company, not an equipment maker, bought a
Speaker:robotics startup to protect its own supply chain. The deals are
Speaker:accelerating, the money is moving, and the winners are already separating from the
Speaker:pack. If you're investing, building, or buying in this space,
Speaker:you need the full picture before your competitors get it. The 2025
Speaker:Precision Agriculture Intelligence Report From iGrow News is now
Speaker:available. Get your copy today at
Speaker:igrownews.com/precision. If you are starting a vertical
Speaker:farm and don't know where to begin or which technology would suit your needs,
Speaker:then reach out to the experts at Cultivated. As indoor farm brokers, they
Speaker:help connect you to the right technology and ensure your project is successful.
Speaker:Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their partners.
Speaker:Visit cultivated.com to learn more. And that's spelled
Speaker:C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D dot com,
Speaker:or click the link in the show notes. You know, strawberries we've been doing now
Speaker:for 6 months and we're killing it on strawberries, but also getting into
Speaker:the next step, which is biopharmaceuticals and biocosmetics.
Speaker:There's so many companies in this world importing from the tropics who
Speaker:have no control over the sustainability of the plants that they need to
Speaker:purchase for some, you know, pharmaceutical or cosmetic
Speaker:application, I can grow that literally in your warehouse beside you
Speaker:in Toronto, New York City, or
Speaker:LA. Welcome
Speaker:to the Vertical Farming Podcast, weekly conversations with
Speaker:fascinating CEOs, founders, and agtech visionaries.
Speaker:Join us every week as we dive deep into the world of vertical
Speaker:farming with your host, Harry Duran. Vertical
Speaker:Farming Podcast Season 6, regular listeners, welcome back. And if you're new,
Speaker:I'm positive you're in the right place. This is the show where we interview fascinating
Speaker:CEOs and founders of the leading vertical farming companies from around the world. I'm
Speaker:your host, Harry Duran. In case you missed last week's episode, we had a
Speaker:long overdue conversation with the folks over at Calera, specifically
Speaker:Dr. Christian Thoma. He's the co-founder and chief science officer there.
Speaker:Calera has been making a lot of news lately, and they're one of the largest
Speaker:operators of vertical hydroponic farms. In this
Speaker:episode, Dr. Thoma and I discussed the nuances of shifting from
Speaker:the CEO role to CSO, his inspiration behind the High
Speaker:Cube, and how Calera is expanding its international footprint through targeted
Speaker:acquisitions. There's been a lot of news lately around
Speaker:Calera, and a lot of our conversation focused
Speaker:mostly on Dr. Christian's story and was recorded
Speaker:before some of the more recent Calera news. This
Speaker:week I get to speak to Eric Lang. He's the president and co-founder of ZipGrow,
Speaker:which empowers local farmers to grow better food for their communities using their
Speaker:patented ZipGrow technology. In this episode, Eric and I talk
Speaker:about the importance of educating the masses on the overall
Speaker:agtech industry, why local is better than organic, and what ZipGrow is doing
Speaker:to fix the broken food model. We talk all about his inspiration for
Speaker:starting the company, ZipPods, and advice he has for aspiring farmers
Speaker:looking to break into the industry. As always, if you enjoyed this episode or past
Speaker:episodes, I'd love if you leave a rating or review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp.
Speaker:I'd love to read yours out next. Appreciate you being patient with our
Speaker:production team. We were celebrating the holidays here in the States,
Speaker:and that's why the episode didn't go out this past
Speaker:Friday. But we wanted to make sure we keep the wheels in motion here and
Speaker:get caught up. And I hope you're enjoying this season and these episodes and
Speaker:these conversations, because I know I am, and I'm excited to bring them to you.
Speaker:But before we jump into this uninterrupted conversation with Eric, here are a few words
Speaker:from the folks that support this show. This episode is brought to you by Indoor
Speaker:AgCon 2023. I'm so happy to have been working with the
Speaker:team last year. Indoor AgCon 2022 was my
Speaker:very first indoor farming conference, so it was really eye-opening for me. So
Speaker:I'll always be grateful to the team there for rolling out the carpet for me.
Speaker:And I really had a good time meeting a lot of past guests and excited
Speaker:to join them again this year. Entering its 10th year in a row, it's the
Speaker:largest trade show and conference for vertical farming and CEA, and it's returning to
Speaker:Caesars Forum Conference Center in Las Vegas on February
Speaker:27th and 28th of 2023. Once again, they'll be co-located with the
Speaker:National Growers Association Show as well, which is a really good fit for them.
Speaker:The conference keeps growing, and this year it's doubled in size. The expo floor
Speaker:now has more than 170 booths filled with new product
Speaker:resources and solutions to explore. You'll hear from experts, including
Speaker:CEOs, growers, investors, and others in the field during this
Speaker:full-scale educational conference. As always, you'll be able to connect with
Speaker:peers, grocers, and other potential new business partners at their great networking
Speaker:events. I haven't even gotten to the best part. The team at Indoor
Speaker:AgCon has given listeners of this show 20%
Speaker:off their full access conference pass. All you have to do is use promo
Speaker:code VFP, as in Vertical Farming Podcast, and sign up at
Speaker:indoor.ag. See you there. Regular listeners to the show will
Speaker:know that we are also fans of the work being done by the iGrow News
Speaker:team. The team at iGrow has been kind enough to provide a free
Speaker:month of their paid subscription to the Indoor Vertical Farming newsletter,
Speaker:and those will be available to the first 3 listeners that send in a
Speaker:review. So ratethispodcast.com/vfp, the first 3
Speaker:reviews that come in. Once it's sent, send an email to
Speaker:[email protected] along with your
Speaker:preferred email, and we'll be sure to get that set up for you. Okay, so
Speaker:Eric Lang, president, co-founder of ZipGrow, thank you so much for joining me on the
Speaker:Vertical Farming Podcast. Thank you for the invitation, I appreciate it. So I
Speaker:think we connected via the team at Indoor AgTech. You
Speaker:guys had a booth, if I remember correctly. Yeah, we've been to a few booth
Speaker:conferences lately, and it's nice to get back out in the world. So yeah, that
Speaker:was great. What's the last one you've been to? Actually, coincidentally, the last one I
Speaker:went to was a very kind of a small, more localized one for
Speaker:real traditional farming. It was called the International Plowing
Speaker:Match, which is like real old-school farms. And, that
Speaker:was actually fantastic. It was a whole different world than the indoor
Speaker:ag con concepts. So, it was actually really great. What are some of the
Speaker:topics covered at a conference like that? That is the biggest issue—
Speaker:not issue, the challenge we were really wondering is when—
Speaker:again, I also come from a very— I'm a traditional farming background. So, big dairy
Speaker:farm, grew up my whole life. I still actually own a beef farm
Speaker:and lamb. We used to do, my wife and I do lamb and beef and
Speaker:turkey, chickens and all that traditional stuff. And I choose to live where I am
Speaker:as a lifestyle choice. But, you know, attending a conference
Speaker:where you're dealing with large, you know, cash crop farmers or
Speaker:whatever the old traditional style, which, you know, we, this industry, we don't
Speaker:really touch as much as I think we should, was actually really
Speaker:great because we got to see that focus of like, hold on, what the fuck?
Speaker:What is this? And it's like, And, I expected to get all these old
Speaker:crotchety farmers, which again, my father was one and et cetera,
Speaker:saying this is such a gimmick. And really, they were like, ah, yeah,
Speaker:I get it. They're business. They're all business. And, it was really great just
Speaker:to see that other avenue that we kind of don't touch in this industry as
Speaker:much as we should, like traditional farmers. Yeah. So, I'd love to
Speaker:touch on some of that as well, but I'm wondering because you said you do
Speaker:come from traditional farming background but you studied
Speaker:business, I imagine, in university, and then you start to work in the plastics industry
Speaker:from what I saw early on. I kind of have a bit of an
Speaker:issue. Yeah. So, I actually am traditional
Speaker:farming background. My degree was actually in education, ended up being a teacher
Speaker:for a minute, for about 2 minutes probably, and then decided that didn't make
Speaker:sense. And, I actually did an MBA 7 years into my
Speaker:actual business just to do one because I thought I probably needed one.
Speaker:Although I don't know if that's really true or not. So yeah, I
Speaker:was, I just have a bit of an issue of very big curiosity about how
Speaker:things work. And sometimes I have a bit of an issue of once I
Speaker:figure out how it might maybe make sense to work, I feel
Speaker:like I have to start a company. So I've had a few companies. Yeah. And
Speaker:so the first one was Norplast? Yeah. First one was Norplast. It was actually a
Speaker:brokerage company, brokering commodities, plastic and others. From
Speaker:North America to mostly China and also Europe and a few other places. I also
Speaker:then started an actual full-scale industrial recycling company doing
Speaker:mostly plastics. Okay. Then did another company doing extrusion and
Speaker:pelletizing and some biocomposites and plastic lumbers,
Speaker:nanotech, uh, some very interesting things which were just a
Speaker:lot of fun. I had another plastic fab company which we were
Speaker:doing fabrication, a packaging warehousing company.
Speaker:And fell into indoor ag, which was
Speaker:completely not on my radar. So what did you learn from those early
Speaker:companies? Because you obviously had leadership roles there as well.
Speaker:And was Nora the first time you were leading a company? Yeah, I was in
Speaker:my late 20s, and that was my first company. So I founded all those companies.
Speaker:And just, I mean, business is business. If it's ag or if it's, you
Speaker:know, it doesn't really matter what it is. Business is business, and 80% of all
Speaker:businesses have the same issues, same concepts, same challenges.
Speaker:And that's what I love. It's also kind of interesting coming into this
Speaker:industry because I think the indoor ag space, I think a lot of
Speaker:the new companies coming into this kind of come into it as
Speaker:a tech startup. I come into it as a brick-and-mortar
Speaker:concept because to me, I don't really consider it— I mean, there is
Speaker:new tech, but it is still brick-and-mortar. We're a manufacturing company the way I look
Speaker:at it. Rather than a tech company where we get Series A, B, C,
Speaker:D, et cetera, until we finally actually make some sales. So, I kind of go
Speaker:the opposite and we've literally had zero funding, no
Speaker:Series anything. And, as far as I'm concerned, we must make money.
Speaker:That's how we finance growth. It's a customer-focused business model.
Speaker:When did ACTech come on your radar? Actually, it's funny. I was an investor,
Speaker:was kind of dragged into being an investor because of a friend
Speaker:who wanted me to invest in her spouse, which I
Speaker:did, and just kind of did it as a, you know, another investment. It was
Speaker:kind of interesting and I love learning about new stuff. And then the more I
Speaker:got into it, and again, I kind of admit I thought it was a little
Speaker:bit of a gimmick as well, coming from traditional ag and like, oh, this actually
Speaker:makes sense. And the more I got involved in it and the more that I
Speaker:was asked to come on and, you know, kind of help out in this company,
Speaker:et cetera. And then I ended up kind of jumping in full bore and sold
Speaker:my last company and started this one as a new company. What were some of
Speaker:the— interesting, because you came in probably as maybe as an outsider with a different
Speaker:perspective and this brick-and-mortar perspective. Like you said, that, you know,
Speaker:having interviewed several folks in this space, that's not always
Speaker:the case. And then there's a lot of folks that have had very successful rounds.
Speaker:And so what was your mindset coming in, and did
Speaker:you feel like there was something that you could do here that you saw wasn't
Speaker:being done or something you could do differently? Yeah, I think so. I think— and
Speaker:again, I have nothing against, you know, Series ABC, etc. And sometimes I'm
Speaker:like, geez, I would love to have had a couple of those and make my
Speaker:life a little easier. But no, my concept was more, and
Speaker:our concept here at Zipgrow is actually more, we actually do
Speaker:it. So while there's a lot of people, and again, some of them are
Speaker:fantastic business models in tech, but where there's a lot
Speaker:of companies that are out talking about how great things are and spending a
Speaker:lot of money on their hype or their You know, what have you. We're
Speaker:quietly in behind the scenes building farms
Speaker:and kind of doing it. So my concept was, you know, long term, I'm
Speaker:100% in. We know that this is an industry which is taking off and it
Speaker:will continue to take off, and, you know, rising tide rises all boats, etc.
Speaker:But I think long term, I'm looking at staying power and, you know,
Speaker:who's going to end up being those foundational companies that go to
Speaker:the next 10, 15, 20 years. And that's kind of how I've looked at it
Speaker:rather than that quick, let's get big as fast as possible. Yeah. And so
Speaker:coming from that traditional ag background,
Speaker:I imagine that had to be helpful. And what learnings did you take from how
Speaker:you grew up and how were you able to apply that with Zipgrow?
Speaker:Well, I was actually thinking about this this morning because dealing with some
Speaker:things, it's like the one thing I will say, you know, traditional ag, I
Speaker:don't think people consider them as entrepreneurs. as much as they should.
Speaker:And I can't even imagine a more difficult business to be in than
Speaker:traditional ag where, you know, if you're a cash crop farmer or what have you,
Speaker:you know, all of your income once a year. Yeah. If you're lucky.
Speaker:And there's just so many things that you have to do. And I think one
Speaker:of the big parts was you have to kind of do everything, right? So, and
Speaker:that's kind of how we've done ZipGrow. We've become everything.
Speaker:So whether it's, even though we are equipment manufacturer,
Speaker:patented, equipment manufacturer, seller of equipment. We also, of course, have
Speaker:to be growers because we have to now teach. We have to be the experts
Speaker:at growing. We have to be the experts at new tech. We have to constantly
Speaker:be developing new products. We have to be able to educate and train because,
Speaker:as you know, in this industry, a lot of potential customers actually don't
Speaker:have an ag background. So we have
Speaker:to kind of do everything. So being able to— and again, that's my team. I'm
Speaker:so proud of my team here. Especially in the beginning stages of the
Speaker:business where, you know, everyone's wearing so many multiple hats. We just
Speaker:have no choice but to not be too specialized and just
Speaker:take on everything and be everything. So, I think that's a
Speaker:big part of it, just understanding that as an entrepreneur, you do
Speaker:just do it all and you just got to figure it out. Did you grow
Speaker:up in Ontario? Yeah, I grew up in Eastern Ontario, rural Eastern Ontario
Speaker:where I still currently live and I choose to live. It's a lifestyle choice.
Speaker:There's good and bad with that. You know, we could potentially have a lot
Speaker:bigger selection of employees and a few things, but I don't think we could ever
Speaker:have any better selection of employees. When people choose to
Speaker:live here who are talented and smart and educated and
Speaker:have a great attitude, but they choose to live in this rural
Speaker:area, kind of like we find each other and it's like those
Speaker:people take us to the next level. What was life like growing up there?
Speaker:I also, as a dairy farm kid, couldn't wait to get out. So, I
Speaker:left at 17. As soon as I could get the heck out,
Speaker:I got out. And, as soon as I started having kids, realized, holy shit,
Speaker:hold on, this is a great way to grow up, and then moved home and
Speaker:then made my kids do the same thing. What was
Speaker:life like growing up on a dairy farm? It was a lot of work.
Speaker:There's no breaks. Dairy especially over a lot of the other ones,
Speaker:it doesn't matter. You know, Christmas, New Year's, like it's still gotta
Speaker:milk the cows. So just a lot of work, a lot of dedication.
Speaker:It's not something for the faint-hearted, but great way to
Speaker:grow up and learn a lot of different skills, a lot of different skill sets,
Speaker:and a lot of confidence. Confidence in being able to do pretty much anything
Speaker:because you just don't have any choice, you just do it. And that's kind of
Speaker:where, why that we've been able to move into the manufacturing concept
Speaker:the way that we have. Is it a family business? How long has it been
Speaker:in the family? So yeah, currently ZipGrow itself is not a family business
Speaker:necessarily anymore. My farm is. Yeah, actually, I work for now for my wife because
Speaker:my wife's now a full-time farmer. Okay. And now my to-do lists are a
Speaker:little different than some people's minds. They bale the hay and clean out the barns
Speaker:on the weekends and evenings. But ZipGrow itself
Speaker:is currently separate but equal on our
Speaker:radar of our lifestyle choices kind of thing. Is it—
Speaker:I imagine some of that ethic from growing up on the farm, this mindset
Speaker:of, you know, you got to work with your hands, you got to, you got
Speaker:to find, find solutions to problems in the moment that they happen,
Speaker:you know, you got to be really resourceful. And it's just like, I
Speaker:imagine, a work ethic that has to have carried through in your subsequent
Speaker:endeavors. It's 100%. And that's, like I mentioned, one of the reasons
Speaker:I love being out in this area, even though we have maybe less of a
Speaker:choice of employee, when I find those other farm kid
Speaker:concepts who still want to live in this area but are talented in
Speaker:skill set, yeah, they can do anything. They can and do do
Speaker:everything. And there's— let's just say I don't ever hear, it's not my job
Speaker:here. It's just like, oh, okay, let's get on that. Let's figure it out. Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, where sometimes, you know, I love engineers and I have a couple, but,
Speaker:you know, you don't necessarily have to be an engineer to figure problems out and
Speaker:fix and have solutions. So I think that's fantastic. You just need some duct tape.
Speaker:Yeah, sometimes. And so how do you think about building a team
Speaker:when, you know, you talked a little bit about talent, about availability, what's there on
Speaker:the ground. Obviously, you know, there's people rethinking
Speaker:what is and isn't possible with remote work. COVID shook a lot of things up.
Speaker:So, you know, how— what was your perspective when you were starting the company, and
Speaker:how has that evolved over the years? I think it's a little similar to what
Speaker:we were discussing. It's finding Attitude. The older I
Speaker:get and the more companies I've been involved in, now what I really search for
Speaker:in an employee is more obviously work ethic, which we all want,
Speaker:but a desire to learn, desire to learn everything, just a passion
Speaker:for education and learning. We just, being a smaller company,
Speaker:we're only at 20-some employees now, but there's just not
Speaker:room for doing one thing over and over. It's just like, oh,
Speaker:and so many new things come up. regularly and every day, it's like,
Speaker:oh, this is so cool. We just learned this. Let's implement this or let's try
Speaker:this. It's like the excitement, and the excitement's contagious as well.
Speaker:So, I'm trying to find people definitely not like me, but that mindset of
Speaker:trying, because we don't want too many of those. But with that mindset of, you
Speaker:know, just the desire to learn, the desire of being better, just constantly
Speaker:striving, choosing to live in a rural community, but being
Speaker:better than, you know, just You know, doing one thing. You don't have
Speaker:to be in downtown Toronto or New York or LA to find really good
Speaker:employees. I imagine you cut your teeth on what to do and what not to
Speaker:do when it comes to hiring the right folks. So when you're starting Zipgrow, I'm
Speaker:always curious about, you know, those first couple of hires are so key because they
Speaker:almost set the foundation for what the, the culture is going to be like, the
Speaker:company. So how do you think about that, and how much of what you learned
Speaker:from your previous companies influenced those decisions? I'm a huge
Speaker:believer in culture, Harry, especially with smaller companies.
Speaker:Culture is everything, you know, getting the right people on the bus, that whole concept.
Speaker:And when I'm doing my MBA, I used to think getting the right people on
Speaker:the bus meant getting the most skilled people until I actually did the
Speaker:case study in my MBA, which doesn't mean that at all. It literally means
Speaker:getting the people who believe the same as you do to go to the same
Speaker:direction. I'm like, wow, once you get to that point, you understand that
Speaker:everyone on the same team going in the same direction is
Speaker:fantastic, can just go like crazy, as opposed to
Speaker:just getting really smart, talented people all doing their own thing in their own little
Speaker:silos. It just doesn't— you can have the most talented team in the world,
Speaker:but if they're not all going the same direction, you're not gonna get anywhere. And
Speaker:that's been a huge focus, is just getting those right people, especially in
Speaker:those first couple years. It's like, we all have to do everything. Yeah. It's like,
Speaker:and when you find that person like, yeah, that's what I want to do, it's
Speaker:like, oh wow, like that's a great employee. You're like, oh, there's more people like
Speaker:me. Yeah, well, hopefully not too many. How
Speaker:have you matured or evolved as a leader over the course of the
Speaker:companies and how's taking those lessons and applied that to Zipgrow?
Speaker:Great question. Just completely generic business question, which I love.
Speaker:That's interesting. So the biggest thing is as I become
Speaker:More mature, debatable, I guess, depending on who you ask.
Speaker:It's, you know, just hiring people smarter than you and start— stop trying to be
Speaker:everything to everyone, admitting when you just don't know it. Look, I'm not
Speaker:a techie in any shape or form. I love the concepts. I love learning
Speaker:it. And I want to know enough to know whether or not something is being
Speaker:done correctly. But just hiring people who kick my
Speaker:butt in skills and knowledge and brainpower and
Speaker:Like, why would I not? And so I think just being,
Speaker:you know, mature enough or confident enough to say, yeah, these
Speaker:people are way smarter than me, let's hire them, instead of trying to feel like
Speaker:I have to be, you know, be-all and end-all to everyone else. So that's— I've
Speaker:changed a lot over the years on that, and it's a great thing. It lets
Speaker:us go a lot quicker. It's all about the team. It's all about the team.
Speaker:So coming from traditional ag, I'm wondering, as you start to build
Speaker:ZipGrow, are you looking to see what others are doing? Do you
Speaker:just know that you have enough experience in the industry to get started
Speaker:in this? I'm just curious how you decide what the offering is going to be
Speaker:on day 1, who your customer is going to be, and, you know, what,
Speaker:uh, who the target audience is in those early days. Well,
Speaker:actually, I think that's a great question, Harry, because I think the reality is
Speaker:coming from traditional ag, as much as I do absolutely
Speaker:believe in the product, I believe in the industry, I believe in changing the world,
Speaker:I believe in feeding people. I also come from the perspective
Speaker:is it has to have an ROI. You can't just
Speaker:hope and feel good about doing something great and not ever
Speaker:actually make money or not ever actually
Speaker:just spend other people's equity investment and then end
Speaker:up doing nothing. So for that perspective, everything we've
Speaker:done has to come from the perspective of this customer has to
Speaker:eventually make money. hopefully make money day one, or year one rather.
Speaker:And that's how we look at it because I've been there. Like, I get this.
Speaker:This is— I'm not only selling a good idea, I'm selling a business.
Speaker:And what we've ended up realizing is we actually—
Speaker:our slogan now is, you know, ZipGrow, we grow farmers. Like,
Speaker:we actually take someone who has no idea sometimes what they're doing,
Speaker:and sometimes they're putting their life savings into this. And I take that very
Speaker:seriously. I'm not just, you know, here's, buy some equipment, see you later,
Speaker:goodbye. We now have to help you succeed. Yeah. So
Speaker:a big focus of ZipGrow, and always has been, education support,
Speaker:especially post-sale support. We need to help them
Speaker:actually succeed because this is now a business. So we are actually
Speaker:helping people start businesses, start farms, become new
Speaker:farmers. So in our ROI was the perspective I think I bring that a lot
Speaker:of Do not. It's literally, I understand these people, these customers.
Speaker:This could be their life-saving. They have to make money. They have to get a
Speaker:return. So that's how I focus what we try to create and
Speaker:sell. Yeah, it's really important, especially with folks that are moving
Speaker:into this space. They may have the passion, but if they don't have the education,
Speaker:if they don't understand the business that they're getting into and all the
Speaker:aspects of running a business, to your point, ROI, like not only just you could
Speaker:be the best grower And, but at the end of the day, if no one's
Speaker:buying your stuff, it's going to sit there. So, you know, how do you think
Speaker:about all the different phases and all the different skill sets that a
Speaker:successful farmer needs to have and to prepare them for this
Speaker:journey? Yeah, well, I don't think I ever could think of all of them, but
Speaker:I will tell you that we see a couple things, um, you know, the
Speaker:further we are in this. And again, we've been selling commercial farms for 10 years,
Speaker:so this is like, we've seen a lot of farmers. I mean, there are
Speaker:times that we're doing— we're building a farm a week. Like, we've just
Speaker:seen a lot of farms out there. We've helped a lot of people start businesses.
Speaker:And I see a couple things. I see probably the biggest challenge I see for
Speaker:a lot of people is they think that indoor farming is a machine and you
Speaker:turn it on and it makes lettuce or what have you. And like, okay, well,
Speaker:when I buy it, how much am I going to get? How much produce am
Speaker:I going to get? Well, I can tell you what somebody has got, but I
Speaker:cannot tell you what you're going to get because the— Kind of think it's just
Speaker:a machine. And I do find this is a big issue, especially coming from a
Speaker:traditional background. It's still farming, and it comes with
Speaker:all the issues that farming and risks that farming comes with. The
Speaker:other thing I see as well is, you know, predominantly 2 types of people
Speaker:who want to get into this as a new industry that do not come from
Speaker:this as a background. One is somebody who just desperately wants to get out of
Speaker:an office or get out of, you know, whatever their situation is and just wants
Speaker:to grow. They want to be connected. with what they do. They just want to
Speaker:be in there and grow and be a farmer, but they don't actually like
Speaker:people. They don't know how to sell, they don't know how to market, nor do
Speaker:they ever want to. The other type of person we see quite often is that
Speaker:people who really love people and they love this idea, they love this concept, they
Speaker:love this story, and they want to be connected, but spend 8 hours or 10
Speaker:hours or 12 hours a day in a farm working? Well, they don't want to
Speaker:do that. So we see these 2 dichotomies, and I always find it just fascinating.
Speaker:It's like This is a business. Yeah. You have to do it all, or you
Speaker:have to at least have a partner or hire somebody to do the other side.
Speaker:So I think that's one of the challenges we see. It's like, this isn't just
Speaker:to save the world. And I'm a fan, I love being in an industry that
Speaker:I can feel good about, but it's also a business. It's also farming.
Speaker:It actually has all the risks associated with
Speaker:it. And prime example, we'll have— and I won't
Speaker:say what city because people could figure out what it is— there's a particular city
Speaker:in the US, northern US, that. I've sold 2 farms, identical
Speaker:farms, identical equipment in a smaller city, you know,
Speaker:mid-range city. And one farmer is just killing it, buying phase
Speaker:2, just killing it. The next farmer's like, well, this doesn't work.
Speaker:It's the same equipment. It's the same city. It's the same customer.
Speaker:So I think in this whole industry, whether it's us or any other equipment
Speaker:manufacturer, the equipment doesn't make food. The
Speaker:equipment is how you make your food and how you end up farming.
Speaker:It's just a tool. It's like a tractor. And that's how I look at it.
Speaker:Do you know enough now, or just with your experience in
Speaker:conversations with potential farmers looking to get started, if
Speaker:someone has the proclivity, the potential to succeed? You
Speaker:know, do you know what are the things that make up someone? What are you
Speaker:looking for? What are the traits of someone who's looking to get
Speaker:into this and may not— maybe biting off more than they can chew, no pun
Speaker:intended? No, I do. And actually, I think I find it— I think there's surprise
Speaker:when I start sometimes in a conversation where they might come to the
Speaker:boardroom and start chatting about, you know, this or that, and they feel like I'm
Speaker:discouraging them. I'm not discouraging them. I just want to make sure they understand.
Speaker:Again, I don't want to— I also have my human. I don't want to feel
Speaker:like somebody, you know, I'm not trying to convince somebody to buy our equipment
Speaker:and start this new career. And if it doesn't work for them, you know,
Speaker:whatever. I would much rather a successful farmer because they sell more
Speaker:farms for me. So yes, we definitely see it. And it comes down to
Speaker:making sure they are aware of both sides of
Speaker:the story. There's the farming and you still have to market and sell this product.
Speaker:It's still a product. It's a widget. I mean, in some respects, it's not like
Speaker:selling corn or soybeans where you just put it on the market, right? And then
Speaker:the other side of that coin, I think, is just
Speaker:making sure that people are aware that this is still
Speaker:work. This isn't just a machine. It
Speaker:doesn't— I don't care what system you buy, and I don't care how automated it
Speaker:is. I don't care what kind of AI there is, and I don't care if
Speaker:it's— you can look at it on your phone in the cloud, which we all
Speaker:do. That isn't farming. That is just telling you if there's an issue
Speaker:potentially, and potentially it doesn't tell you every issue. So I've actually
Speaker:had people like, well, I can go away for the week and go on holidays.
Speaker:No, you can't. If you do, you better at least have someone
Speaker:there. Like, this is still farming. Yeah. Get that through your head. So that's kind
Speaker:of what I guess That's one advantage of coming from traditional is like trying to
Speaker:make people understand that because I really, I think sometimes
Speaker:we as an industry do a disservice from being overly
Speaker:anxious to sell product without making sure of the
Speaker:success of the customer. Yeah, I think what happens is that sort of
Speaker:damages the whole industry because the people who haven't had success
Speaker:or who failed at it will then go back and say, yeah, try that vertical
Speaker:farming thing, doesn't work. You know, to your point, they haven't put in the time
Speaker:and they don't realize what was involved when they were getting into it in the
Speaker:first place. So just, uh, for the benefit of the listener, can you describe what
Speaker:the current product offering is for ZipGrow and what are the different markets you're
Speaker:serving? Yeah, absolutely. So we're very proud of what we've been doing,
Speaker:especially lately. We've been really pushing the envelope a little bit. And again, maybe it's
Speaker:my issue of being entrepreneurial and wanting to do everything, but
Speaker:we have everything currently from online hobby I've
Speaker:seen some of your past podcasts from that in-house system in your kitchen, et
Speaker:cetera. We do very well with that. We've been doing that for a very long
Speaker:time. School and education is also a big
Speaker:thing for us. We're very committed to educating students and young
Speaker:people and making sure they understand and actually have an opportunity to get
Speaker:connected with the food they eat and understand where it comes from. So we've got
Speaker:a big push in education, schools, research and development with
Speaker:universities, et cetera. But of course, our bread and butter is still commercial
Speaker:farms. So we do commercial greenhouse farms, we do commercial warehouse
Speaker:indoor vertical farms, a lot of them. That's our main bread and butter.
Speaker:And we also have our newest product, which is our ZipPod, which is
Speaker:a containerized farm, which we've developed from the ground up. It's not a shipping container.
Speaker:It is a purpose-built container for being
Speaker:able to farm in a vertical FarmingSense in a containerized
Speaker:version, which we call the ZipPod. Very happy with that. We just released that. So
Speaker:we kind of have the whole gamut right now. And of course, everything is built
Speaker:around our patented tower growing, truly vertical—
Speaker:we call ourselves truly vertical instead of stack trays. And it's nothing against the other
Speaker:side of it, but that's what we do. Do you see a lot of folks
Speaker:dipping their toe in the water, starting with one of the smaller offerings, and
Speaker:then, you know, realizing what's involved, and then, you know, getting excited
Speaker:at what's possible And to grow into something bigger. Yeah. And, you know, it
Speaker:kind of goes back to that last question prior as far as, you know, what
Speaker:do we do with those customers that really are, you know, desperate, want to get
Speaker:into this? And sometimes instead of trying to sell them a commercial farm, which
Speaker:they don't know what they're doing yet, it's like, look, let's just try this small
Speaker:system, you know, play with this in your garage or your backyard or your kitchen
Speaker:or whatever and understand the concept because a lot of people really
Speaker:truly have no clue. Small to medium-sized
Speaker:farms. We're not doing the 100,000 square footers. That's, you know, the Planties of the
Speaker:world, and we don't even want to touch that. We do commercially viable
Speaker:small to medium farms. I think a lot of companies out there don't think that
Speaker:that's a thing, but we do this every day. We are building farms, you know,
Speaker:weekly, if not, you know, 2, 3 times a month minimum of commercial
Speaker:entities, you know, from 2,000 to 20,000 square feet. So
Speaker:a lot of times when we have a lot of interest, we just say, look,
Speaker:try this little In your kitchen, play with this. Because
Speaker:we have so many people talking to us literally about, I'm going to quit my
Speaker:job and I'm going to get a mortgage on my house and I'm going to
Speaker:start a farm. I'm like, whoa, just hold on. As much as I want the
Speaker:sale, I would prefer that you were successful and you understand what you're doing. So
Speaker:let's play with this for a bit. Try it, make sure you love it. If
Speaker:you do love it, it's not a commercial
Speaker:volume, but at least it gives you that concept. And I think that's important.
Speaker:Because, again, I think this is the only industry where most customers
Speaker:have no experience. It's just a— it's a very strange industry that way.
Speaker:And what's so— the entry-level product then? Entry-level product, like I said,
Speaker:it's an in-home product. We're not even trying in this case to get people to
Speaker:grow for commercially, but, you know, just to have your kids do it.
Speaker:So our ZipGarden is a new one we've done. It's a great product.
Speaker:It looks decent. It grows great amount of volume,
Speaker:but you can put it in your kitchen and it doesn't clash. It's not just,
Speaker:it's not just a farm in your kitchen, it's actually a kind of an appliance
Speaker:in your kitchen. Yeah. That's a great entry level. You can play with it. It
Speaker:gives you— it's exactly the same as a commercial system except it's much smaller.
Speaker:So it gives you all the concepts, all the ability to play with it and
Speaker:try with it and have your kids get involved, you know, and cut your lettuce
Speaker:or your kale or whatever for your smoothies in the morning, whatever it is you
Speaker:do. And, and I think that people should try something before they jump
Speaker:into this. Do you see anyone getting like a Zip Garden and maybe trying to
Speaker:do a little bit of like a home-based business?
Speaker:Yeah, well, actually, absolutely. And we do have a few in between the
Speaker:Zip Gardens to, you know, our education racks, you know, 16 towers.
Speaker:16 towers can grow a lot of food. Yeah. And they literally will do 1
Speaker:or 2 in their garage as phase 2. And, you know, of
Speaker:sell to friends and family and they get the bug. Those are people
Speaker:who will be successful. I love those people. They've tried it, they've done it, they've
Speaker:done the work. Now, I can give them a really optimized commercial
Speaker:system where they can really kill it. I feel better about that
Speaker:group of sales than the ones who are like, yeah, I'm making the—
Speaker:we've got impromptu buyers, which I don't even understand.
Speaker:It's like, yeah, I'm buying a farm. It's like, have you ever done anything? Nope.
Speaker:We're doing it. Like, okay. What's the mix in terms of like
Speaker:regions? And do you have a specific focus? Do you like to keep, you know,
Speaker:stay close to where your customers are or cover in all areas now?
Speaker:Not at all. We've always been actually very international. 5,
Speaker:6, 7 years ago, we were, you know, 80% North America, 20%
Speaker:international. I consider Canada and the US to be the same.
Speaker:Now we're over 50/50. Sometimes we're actually more
Speaker:international than North American based. I see a huge focus obviously in the
Speaker:Middle East. It just makes a lot of sense. Also, we're big,
Speaker:especially with our new container farms, which are very well insulated
Speaker:and designed for this purpose, you know, extreme heat and extreme
Speaker:cold. We've just this week sold the
Speaker:pods to both the Cayman Islands and Malta Islands. And cutoff areas
Speaker:are big for us as well. Like I said, we're doing a small to medium,
Speaker:so we can actually sell something to individual or a group
Speaker:of 2 to 3 people and they can literally run a business in a
Speaker:secluded area. Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, the island of France off of our
Speaker:coast. Those are the areas which really make a lot
Speaker:of sense where they're importing all of their food. And like I said, I'm not
Speaker:against, we're certainly not against, and I'm supportive of the 100,000 and 200,000
Speaker:square foot farms that are being built. It's a different concept, but
Speaker:it doesn't have to be, you know, $20 million, $100 million of
Speaker:investment. Yeah, it's really interesting. As
Speaker:I'm actually getting on a plane to Dubai this couple of days,
Speaker:courtesy of our sponsor of the show, Cultivated. They're sponsoring a conference there, and it's
Speaker:the first time I'll be out in that part of the world. But to your
Speaker:point, it's one of those regions that is really seeing a big uptick in interest
Speaker:in terms of, you know, farms, and obviously directly correlated to
Speaker:the climate issues they're experiencing there. It'll be a fun experience, and it'll be interesting
Speaker:to see what's happening in that space. space, and I'm sure that speaks to what
Speaker:you're seeing as well. Oh, absolutely. I mean, food security. I
Speaker:mean, most Middle Eastern countries have, you know, decided once
Speaker:they realized that, you know, hydroponics was an actual thing that can make money,
Speaker:it's like, hold on, why are we importing food? Yeah, they have energy,
Speaker:they need very little water, it just makes sense. I think you're going to see
Speaker:the whole— I mean, as you people stop potentially watering the
Speaker:deserts in California, Arizona, Nevada because Because they ran out of water. I mean, you're
Speaker:just going to— and also in Spain and Northern Africa and a few other
Speaker:places, the same thing outside of the pond. It's the same issues
Speaker:exactly. I think you're going to really start to see the whole shift focus where
Speaker:they're like, you know, hold on, why are we doing this again? We can just
Speaker:grow our own. I was like, oh yeah, okay, there we go. Food security
Speaker:is the big word. So talk to me about the thinking around
Speaker:ZipPod. Obviously a lot of folks, you know, going down the route, just taking
Speaker:a typical container, retrofitting it for, you know,
Speaker:their farms. Is that something you initially thought and then decided it
Speaker:makes more sense to build something from the ground up? Oh, absolutely. We actually
Speaker:originally owned a couple of those container farms in the
Speaker:past, and there's nothing against utilizing that. And it's
Speaker:really, quite honestly, it's a sexy story to recycle used
Speaker:containers. It's not what it used to be. They're not throwing containers
Speaker:out like they used to. There is not a huge amount of containers
Speaker:being wasted right now, especially not insulated reefer containers.
Speaker:The issue that we just ran into over and over is there just
Speaker:isn't the room in it to do the volume that we want to do. It
Speaker:is not insulated the way it actually needs to be insulated. It just
Speaker:can't do, you know, we're in Canada or in the Middle East, we can't
Speaker:do the plus, you know, the -40s to the +40s, right? You just can't do
Speaker:it. And then the other side of that, Of course, it's just not truly a
Speaker:closed environment. Like, we want closed environment. CA is CA for a reason.
Speaker:It's not kind of CA. It's got to be closed environment. Otherwise, like, we just
Speaker:ended up with so many issues and we ended up having to redesign them so
Speaker:many times. We said, you know what? And that's how we got into the whole
Speaker:ZipCo and the towers and doing our own products and our own product.
Speaker:And are they built for growth? Are they modular or can you stack them together?
Speaker:They're built for growth. They're not built modular. modular to be able to stack them.
Speaker:We do the largest footprint we can do and still have them
Speaker:be delivered on a truck. So they are wide load without the escort.
Speaker:They're 40 by 10 by 10 or 10 by 10 by 40,
Speaker:which gives us about a 1,600 extra cubic foot. And again, because we're truly
Speaker:vertical, we do towers, we utilize that space. Exactly. We can have
Speaker:proper 4 rows. We have an actual aisle that you can actually work in.
Speaker:Yeah. And we've designed them specifically for the issues that we've seen in the
Speaker:container industry. And the container industry is limited by the
Speaker:container. What— I imagine you have several of these in the wild now, and what's
Speaker:been the feedback so far? So far, it's actually been fantastic. It's
Speaker:248-foot towers plus your signaling area plus
Speaker:your work area, everything enclosed. That's, you know,
Speaker:it's almost a full-time career for someone, just one container where they can
Speaker:drop it. And, and again, I still Absolutely believe, you know,
Speaker:proper indoor warehouse farm is the most economical way of growing indoors you can
Speaker:get. But there are certain situations where that doesn't
Speaker:necessarily make sense. And the big one right now is, which we
Speaker:all have seen, which is, you know, construction, you know, just the
Speaker:limitations of, you know, getting a building, fitting it out, hiring contractors,
Speaker:et cetera, where I can drop this, everything is there. You
Speaker:plug it in to internet service, but you plug it in and you're growing that
Speaker:day. Well, it's a little different than
Speaker:somebody who wants to start farming who now has to both hire a
Speaker:contractor, try to understand how to get that building ready, what's the
Speaker:R-value they need, what's, you know, all of these construction things, their electricians, et
Speaker:cetera, where this comes everything including dehumidification, including
Speaker:HVAC already pre-charged. You just literally hook it up to power and you
Speaker:start growing. It makes a big difference for somebody who's trying to get going and
Speaker:not waste 6 Naturally, like
Speaker:everyone else, I imagine you start with leafy greens. How much
Speaker:work or investigation have you done in what else is possible in that environment given
Speaker:what you've experienced so far? Thank you for asking that question because, to be quite
Speaker:honest, people get tired of me saying, why are you growing lettuce? I don't
Speaker:get it. Our customers do grow lettuce, but I just don't really understand the
Speaker:point of it, to be honest. This is what I try to explain. Again, coming
Speaker:from the business side of things and the ROI side of things and the traditional
Speaker:farming, the input costs, the OpEx, if I was growing lettuce
Speaker:or I was growing for whatever, basil, any, or any other product
Speaker:are pretty much the same. Sell price is 2, 3, 4 times.
Speaker:Why are you growing lettuce? So for us, we are actually, that's a big
Speaker:focus of us is actually really getting into high margin, high
Speaker:value crops. Especially due to the nature of our
Speaker:actual equipment, it'd be really well suited to traceability.
Speaker:It's well suited, completely clean, completely repeatable. So we're
Speaker:actually getting into not just herbs, but keep going, you know,
Speaker:strawberries we've been doing now for 6 months and we're killing it on
Speaker:strawberries. Okay. But also getting into the next step, which is
Speaker:biopharmaceuticals and biocosmetics. You know, there's so many
Speaker:companies in this world importing from the tropics who have
Speaker:no control over the sustainability of the plants that they need to
Speaker:purchase for some either pharmaceutical or cosmetic
Speaker:application. I can grow that literally in your warehouse beside you
Speaker:in Toronto, New York City, or LA, and you don't have to worry about
Speaker:child labor or cutting down the rainforest or whatever else
Speaker:that is. And you can now trace every single ounce of that
Speaker:because that is super important, which they cannot currently do. So that is a big
Speaker:focus for us, is actually going into more and more higher-end crops, more difficult
Speaker:crops also. And even in the traditional sense, I mean, the
Speaker:whole industry still to this day has pretty much just taken field crop seed and
Speaker:put it inside, which makes absolutely no sense. The reason field crops are
Speaker:there is because of, you know, being able to travel, being able to not bruise,
Speaker:etc. All the issues that we're fixing, but we're still using the same seed.
Speaker:I think that's a whole other industry, which is I can't wait for that to
Speaker:really get going. I mean, even just using heritage breed crops which have been
Speaker:almost lost, which we can now use because traditionally our customers are
Speaker:right beside their customers. So, it's same-day harvest, same-day sale. What
Speaker:are some of the crops or some of the plants that you're growing for these
Speaker:industries? I'll tell you a couple that I don't mind telling you yet. Some of
Speaker:them I won't. Things like St. John's wort, stevia,
Speaker:some really, really cool things that I'm looking Like, it grows so
Speaker:well. Obviously, we've even tried a lot of things, like even things
Speaker:like aloe, like succulents, which I, again, we're on a
Speaker:24-hour drip cycle. I would not grow— they grow like
Speaker:crazy. Even things like ornamentals and flowers and stuff, it all grows well.
Speaker:And hydroponics is hydroponics. They all grow very well. It's just whether or not
Speaker:it makes economic sense. And that's the whole point. I mean, which one of
Speaker:those for the specific market you're in, for the specific customer
Speaker:or that you're looking to target makes the most sense for you from an ROI
Speaker:perspective? It just makes a lot of sense to be thinking about it in those
Speaker:terms. Well, I mean, the obvious one is leafy— is baby
Speaker:greens. Like, let's just go there, because if you're going to grow lettuce, why not
Speaker:just grow baby greens? It's the same thing, you just harvest more often and you
Speaker:get more money. So to me, I always try to tell people, just start there.
Speaker:Like, there's your basics. And then actually, I think there's a big
Speaker:market to be had, and it hasn't really been touched with, is
Speaker:Very specialty crops, a lot of them which are internationally focused.
Speaker:Our international communities in North America and Europe and anywhere else are becoming
Speaker:bigger, where they're importing certain plants that they
Speaker:have to import from, you know, potentially Asia or wherever else it is. And
Speaker:again, it still comes back to we are small to medium, so it's getting connected
Speaker:to your farmer. So what does your local community want? You know,
Speaker:what is in your community? What is the makeup of your community? And then
Speaker:actually getting to know them and finding out what they can and cannot do.
Speaker:If you want to go on the other side of it, you know, the pharmaceutical,
Speaker:etc., like, I think there's definitely the future. But for our customers today,
Speaker:it's get to know your local community, your local restaurants, your
Speaker:local grocery store, and really sell to them
Speaker:and sell what they want. You may have just answered this question, but if you
Speaker:have someone who's coming to you, you know, just about to get started, looking to
Speaker:get into this, And maybe, you know, looking at growing some of these specialty greens,
Speaker:you know, what else can they do in terms of homework, in terms of
Speaker:prep work? You know, you mentioned looking at who's buying what in your area,
Speaker:so to have the best chance of success. It kind of— yeah, it goes back
Speaker:to way back. You can grow whatever you'd like, but you have to sell it.
Speaker:Yeah. So market— what is your market? How do you
Speaker:connect with that market? What's your story? It's like any
Speaker:other small you know, get to know your farmers markets, you know, CSAs,
Speaker:etc. I mean, selling retail obviously is always better if you can.
Speaker:The margins are better. But now, of course, it's more work, etc. And everyone— not
Speaker:everyone, it seems to be— I don't— I dissuade from this. This seems to be
Speaker:the nature, is everyone is looking for what's that grocery store that wants to take
Speaker:the most amount of whatever, Boston lettuce. I'm like, why would you bother? Yeah.
Speaker:You can grow, you know, a quarter as much and make the same amount of
Speaker:money selling to your local people who are actually also
Speaker:dependable and they support you and they get to know you. And then
Speaker:like, that's where it is. Again, I'm not against the very large farms in any
Speaker:shape or form. We sell farms to people who need
Speaker:to make money and this is their new career. And small to
Speaker:medium, like I said, 2,000 to 20,000 square feet where, you
Speaker:know, you could be a mom-and-pop shop concept selling at the local
Speaker:farmers market and make enough money to survive up to, you know,
Speaker:5, 10, 20 people, but still local, even your local grocery
Speaker:store. So to me, local is the most— the, the best brand
Speaker:there currently is. It beats organic hands down now. Local, local,
Speaker:local. So be that local farmer. That's what I tell them. That's
Speaker:absolutely great advice. Where are you seeing the most growth out of all the product
Speaker:lines? It's actually funny, we are seeing a huge change. When we—
Speaker:like I said, we're one of the older companies. We've been selling commercially for 10
Speaker:years now. We've seen a huge change over the years. It used to be a
Speaker:lot of DIY mom-and-pop type concepts. We are now
Speaker:seeing in the industry is becoming legitimized. I mean, like, take
Speaker:Plenty and take, you know, Walmart's investment in Plenty. It's mainstream. Like,
Speaker:there's no more doubt this is where it's going. So, but we've seen
Speaker:a huge change where we're getting institutions, we're getting
Speaker:larger corps who just want to get involved. And we've seen
Speaker:that That's a big shift for us. It's great because the sale numbers are
Speaker:bigger. Also, the sales cycles are longer. So, I mean, it's kind of give and
Speaker:take, but we're seeing it switch over from just the
Speaker:individual, one person wanting to do something in their backyard or a little hoop
Speaker:house or, you know, whatever, to institutions, to,
Speaker:you know, we signed a contract last year with Sodexo. Like, those
Speaker:companies all want to get on board. We have fed probably every major grocery store
Speaker:chain, in the country, in our boardroom, asking to be involved.
Speaker:They want to buy, they want to get involved. Sometimes right now, actually, the
Speaker:issue is matching up the buyer and finding the grower, because
Speaker:we manufacture equipment. We're not the grower necessarily. We grow farmers, and we need to
Speaker:grow some more farmers to actually— the supply is there. I mean, sorry, the demand
Speaker:is there. Really just need more people actually to jump on that. And to do
Speaker:that, I mean, the biggest challenge is typically financing. Yeah. In this
Speaker:industry. I saw that you were one of the companies that signed the
Speaker:manifesto. Can you talk about how you— someone bring that to
Speaker:you? Did you— how did you discover it and what made you want to jump
Speaker:on board? Yeah, actually it was brought to us. They approached
Speaker:us on, on that. First I'm like, what manifesto? It sounds
Speaker:a little bit to a Unabomber concept. But yeah, actually a
Speaker:lot of sense. And I do absolutely support the
Speaker:industry needs to get over themselves a little bit and realize,
Speaker:look, we are all on the same page here. Like, there is no one silver
Speaker:bullet, there's no one solution for the, you know, feeding the world
Speaker:concept, but to actually get involved in something where we're committing
Speaker:to being that long-term player and actually helping
Speaker:to change what needs to be changed so this industry itself can actually
Speaker:long-term be what we know it will end up being. So it's just Actually
Speaker:committing to that. And the other companies that committed, I respect
Speaker:them all as well. And I think we do need as an industry to stop
Speaker:being so competitive that we think we all have some secret
Speaker:sauce. And we do to a degree, and that's great, but we're really— it's an
Speaker:industry that's growing, and it's still growing plants. It's hydroponics. It's not
Speaker:that complicated. Yeah, and I will say, for the most part of
Speaker:all the conversations I had, it really feels like an all-hands-on-deck moment, and it feels
Speaker:like we're all moving towards the same goal. There's enough business for
Speaker:everyone. There's enough need to solve this problem across the
Speaker:globe. So it doesn't feel like there's going to be any shortage of activity
Speaker:and interest in this space for a long time to come. So that being said,
Speaker:I know it's hard to plan anything beyond 3 or 5 years, especially in business,
Speaker:and I'm sure you can speak to that having run several yourself. So
Speaker:when you think long term, when you think roadmap future for ZipGrow,
Speaker:maybe 6 months to a year, what's top of mind for you? Yeah,
Speaker:difficult question. And of course, what we're talking about every day right now,
Speaker:I think what comes to mind is kind of get back to basics a little
Speaker:bit. So we've been, again, everything's based around our tower
Speaker:system, and I think we've got the gamut now of, you know, from hobby to
Speaker:larger scale indoor or greenhouse growing. And I think
Speaker:right now, we're getting back to basics in We
Speaker:never done sales. We've never done marketing ever in our
Speaker:industry, our history, to be honest. You know, a few little press
Speaker:releases or whatever, but that's 100% because we are known as
Speaker:the educators and the supporters. So we're actually
Speaker:reinventing that side a little more. I mean, we've had
Speaker:things like Upstart University, complete online courses. We've
Speaker:now recently refocused back into our community. We're doing an
Speaker:8-week hydroponics course at a local community college.
Speaker:We're going back to educating, and I think that's where we're
Speaker:refocusing a lot of our efforts, is realizing that
Speaker:the industry itself is going to grow out of necessity just because we
Speaker:need more food, we need food security, we're having issues with water supply, etc.
Speaker:And from our perspective is we want to continue to be the one
Speaker:that supports The industry itself supports new people, supports young
Speaker:kids. We're getting into education in schools a lot more. We're doing curriculums.
Speaker:We're actually teaching in community colleges. We're focusing on
Speaker:educating so that more people— it just baffles me
Speaker:when I go to a show or something and people haven't heard of
Speaker:growing indoors. I'm like, what? But it's still
Speaker:most of the population, right? It's still true. Yeah, it's true. Oh, this is so
Speaker:new. I'm like, well, we don't want it to be new anymore. So, they want
Speaker:the average person to understand it so well that it's just adopted as a
Speaker:norm instead of the norm is the— I mean, I don't know why
Speaker:people think it's so natural to water a desert and then
Speaker:harvest that like that's natural growing. To me, there's nothing natural about that.
Speaker:The natural should be conservation of water and food security and food safety.
Speaker:Is that something that you see as a possible challenge in terms of
Speaker:talent? You know, because I've noticed that it's a common thread. We recently updated
Speaker:a site we have called Vertical Farming Jobs, and we've created what we call a
Speaker:collective for people who are looking for jobs in industry. And the first day that
Speaker:I posted it, like 6 people just submitted like their resumes, like they
Speaker:want— they're really interested in this space. And that's just like, I'm sure, just the
Speaker:tip of the iceberg. But, you know, there's a lot of— to your point, educating
Speaker:them at a younger level is probably, you know, part of the solution. But do
Speaker:you see that as a challenge going forward? I mean, take a look at any
Speaker:industry currently in North America and/or Europe, you know, finding talent and finding
Speaker:manpower is huge. Finding skilled, learned
Speaker:people in this industry is almost unheard of. And we still are at
Speaker:the stage of just assuming we're going to bring people on who have great attitudes
Speaker:and train them. If I can find some that aren't— and actually, we are starting
Speaker:to do that. And we are seeing— I shouldn't say that. We're actually starting to
Speaker:see, especially the more recent college grads from some of the
Speaker:universities like Guelph in Canada, that's high school who
Speaker:understand this quite well, who are like, yeah, we want to get involved in this
Speaker:industry well, or something similar. So we are seeing that for
Speaker:certain a little bit more. But we still are at that stage. We're still
Speaker:training good skills. Oh, you want to change the world? Come join
Speaker:us. I'm going to help you. We're going to help you. And you're going to
Speaker:learn that. But it's becoming less of that. But I think we all need to
Speaker:be doing better at educating the young and educating
Speaker:the consumer, Yeah, things
Speaker:like the manifesto help to get the word out at a wider scale to folks
Speaker:and just kind of get some of this language into, you know, the common
Speaker:areas where people are, you know, like to your point, they hear the term and
Speaker:they think it's something to have to do with like robots and
Speaker:skyscrapers. Oh, absolutely. And then you go to— depends where you are, whether in
Speaker:the US and you can be organic, or you're in Canada and you can't be
Speaker:organic, or in Europe where it's like, what, it's not soil, it must be terrible
Speaker:for you. Like, just kind of getting some common knowledge out there,
Speaker:getting some common language, educating the consumer so this isn't a
Speaker:big deal. We shouldn't have to try to convince them that this is healthy. It
Speaker:still just baffles me every time someone says, okay, well, is it
Speaker:healthy? What? Oh, because it's not growing in
Speaker:soil, maybe it might not be healthy. I'm like, we give it everything it wants,
Speaker:it's much healthier. Really? But it's still, we shouldn't have
Speaker:to be still explaining that. Well, it's funny because I
Speaker:came back from Indoor AgTech NYC and I was in, I live in Minneapolis now,
Speaker:but I grew up in New York. So I went to go visit my folks.
Speaker:I was explaining to my dad about this vertical farming and I was really
Speaker:struggling to like explain, you know, it's grown, it's like
Speaker:across the river. So it just comes into New York City and it's very fresh.
Speaker:And he's like, yeah, but it comes from California. And he's like, they get on
Speaker:a plane and they just have it there and it works. And it's, they've been
Speaker:doing it for years. And it was really interesting because I was really struggling to
Speaker:kind of explain like the benefit and organic and local
Speaker:and transportation. So there is like, I experienced it firsthand, you know, with my
Speaker:family and that I think there's an education, you know, maybe there's, we need a
Speaker:new documentary or something just specifically for vertical farming or something like
Speaker:that. So I agree. And actually, you, Harry, you mentioned from Minneapolis,
Speaker:you were talking about how things are changing. One of the— this is really cool.
Speaker:Got it. We've been working this for years and years, a big potential
Speaker:customer in Minneapolis, designing a complete
Speaker:community around. And we're seeing this a lot more. You're seeing this in a lot
Speaker:of things. And it's actually, some of these things are being built around
Speaker:growing your own food. In this case, look it up if you're curious, just as
Speaker:an aside, not from the interview, I guess. Yeah. Called The Place, which is
Speaker:in Minneapolis, a full community being built out. And it looks like they've got their
Speaker:funding now. It's going to be a big a real thing. I got a full
Speaker:community with community being built around the actual farms
Speaker:which are going to supply the community. That's— I think that's so fascinating. That's
Speaker:awesome. That's really cool. And is that a project that ZipCrow is working on?
Speaker:Yeah, we've been working on that for 4 years. Wow. And it's finally coming to
Speaker:fruition, it looks like. Well, yeah, keep me informed. I'd love to go check it
Speaker:out if there's anything I can do to kind of like help them or do
Speaker:a little story on them. I mean, the fact that it's here in my backyard
Speaker:is something I get my hands on, that'd be great. Yeah, I'll send you a
Speaker:link to them. It's pretty fun. It's pretty exciting. We've been working it forever. Yeah.
Speaker:And they finally looks like they're getting it down. So it's just a community, a
Speaker:community of people building houses, et cetera, but
Speaker:based around a sustainable concept where it's not a
Speaker:commune kind of thing, but it's maybe a little, but
Speaker:I think it's pretty fun. Anyway, it'd be interesting to do a story on it.
Speaker:Yeah, very cool. What's a tough question you had to ask yourself recently?
Speaker:What's my sales cycle look like? Who's my
Speaker:customer? It's changing quickly. Okay. There's been a few of those.
Speaker:You know, the biggest issue I have, like probably you and a lot of other
Speaker:entrepreneurs, is like, I can't just do everything. I need to
Speaker:stop because I'm like, oh, this is exciting, let's do that. Oh, that's
Speaker:exciting. Actually, I'll be— actually, I'll actually be
Speaker:frank with you a little bit. One of the things I've actually
Speaker:been struggling with personally is, you know,
Speaker:I and a lot of the other equipment manufacturers are selling, and there's no doubt
Speaker:that this is actually— this is higher-end product. That's not cheap.
Speaker:And yes, you could do a really cheap version of some of this stuff, I
Speaker:guess. But, and we do, we are wanting to help
Speaker:feed the world, etc. But, you know, how can I develop something
Speaker:around or tech that is cheap enough that I can actually
Speaker:go and help those countries that really need food, not
Speaker:just the European, North American countries who really want to pay more for
Speaker:quality food. Yeah. Not sure if I wanted to
Speaker:be that honest with it, but it's just something I've actually been thinking about a
Speaker:lot lately. It's like, you know, I really love designing the system
Speaker:where people can actually make an ROI, and in this case are more
Speaker:affluent. Even though we can and do try to promote and, you know,
Speaker:those food deserts and etc. in North America and Europe and wherever, but how
Speaker:can we actually really help those people that are having issues
Speaker:eating? Yeah, who really need it. Who really need it today. Yeah.
Speaker:I've been thinking about that a lot. Well, again, keep me updated if there's anything
Speaker:you need to do to spread the word or to get the word out in
Speaker:that area. And obviously, uh, I'd love to be that bullhorn for you.
Speaker:How— let me ask you a quick question. How is, uh, you're at what,
Speaker:70-some podcasts now, or 60-something? Yeah, closing in on,
Speaker:yes, 60-plus. Yeah. Is this all you thought it would be? How is this
Speaker:different than when you started out this journey? It was just a, you know, it's
Speaker:just curiosity. My background is podcasting. I had my first shows in
Speaker:2014 called Podcast Junkies. It's a show where I interview other
Speaker:podcasters, so I've cut my teeth there, 300-plus interviews.
Speaker:And then we have a podcast agency that produces shows. So I had the
Speaker:technical pieces done, but then I obviously— I'm just naturally curious. I
Speaker:love long-form conversations because I feel that's the best opportunity to tell stories. I
Speaker:love origin stories. I'm an entrepreneur myself, you know, so I'm always
Speaker:curious, you know, what people tick, what gets people out of bed in the morning.
Speaker:And I think it's interesting that the show kicked off just as
Speaker:COVID was hitting. That was not intentional. I mean, this has been end of
Speaker:2019 when the idea was brewing, and it just seemed like the
Speaker:right thing to be focusing on. And it's, you know, again,
Speaker:supply chain issues, you know, food deserts, all these things just started
Speaker:popping up. And I— and it feels like, wow, there's so many stories to
Speaker:tell. I thought I would run out of interviews. I thought I'd run out of
Speaker:people to talk to. But then, you know, I go to Indirect Tech and I
Speaker:see I come back with 20 new names to interview on the show. You know,
Speaker:glad I And we got connected as well. And there's just
Speaker:more needs to be told. I've got people reaching out to me and saying, hey,
Speaker:I'm looking to get into the industry. I've been binging your podcasts. I'm like so
Speaker:fascinated to hear these stories. They're very inspiring. I can't wait to enter the space.
Speaker:So it's just like I'm trying to think about, okay, I have the platform now.
Speaker:You know, we've got a newsletter going out. We've got Vertical Farming Jobs going out.
Speaker:You know, what else can we do to just help educate, get the word out,
Speaker:tell these stories, and let people know there's no one path into this industry. Like,
Speaker:so many of these stories in the beginning of people, like, didn't even think they
Speaker:were going to be in vertical farming, you know, to begin with. And then, you
Speaker:know, a couple years later, they find themselves— Like me. Yeah, running a company. So
Speaker:it's— I'm so amazed by what's happening. I'm so grateful
Speaker:to be, you know, having a front row seat to these stories. And I just
Speaker:want to use that platform as much as possible to tell these stories and to
Speaker:show people what's happening. You know, this— all the stuff that's happening
Speaker:Africa, India, I'm in Dubai. Like, it's just the Middle East,
Speaker:there's a lot more that needs to be told and a lot more, to your
Speaker:point, education that needs to happen. So, you know, to the extent that this platform
Speaker:can help that and branches of this platform can do more of that is
Speaker:definitely something that's sort of made it my mission to do as well. Well, fantastic.
Speaker:I love your style, by the way. The one— I haven't listened to all of
Speaker:them, but I listened to a big whack of them. Yeah, love the style. I
Speaker:think you're doing a great job. So, and I appreciate by the way, your
Speaker:request, and I'd be more than happy to answer anything else. I wasn't cutting this
Speaker:off, sorry. No, no, no, it was actually really good. I appreciate
Speaker:it. Yeah, so we're just closing in on the interview. The hour tends to go
Speaker:by really fast. Just lastly, like, what gets you out of bed in the morning?
Speaker:What keeps you going? Learning. I just want to learn everything. Yeah, I
Speaker:just want to understand. I want to figure something out. I want to— I just
Speaker:want to figure out everything. I often joke that,
Speaker:you know, on my deathbed, I'm going to finally say, okay, I've got it.
Speaker:I know the meaning of life, and then I will die. That's literally all I
Speaker:want to do is just figure out everything. Again, it becomes an issue when like,
Speaker:oh, this could work. And I'm like, oh, I should start a new company. Just
Speaker:because I think it might work, I shouldn't do it. Yes. But I will say
Speaker:that as far as the industry specifically and Zipgrow specifically, I mean,
Speaker:it's just seeing the dedication of both my team, which
Speaker:I just can't say enough about who literally give a shit, to be
Speaker:honest. And it's the customers who are like— they
Speaker:motivate the hell out of me. It's like when you get this customer's like, oh,
Speaker:just dying to get into this, and they've been talking to everyone and they can't
Speaker:wait to, you know, sell to their neighbors and supply this. I'm like, oh shit,
Speaker:that's why we're doing it. I forgot. You know, sometimes you can get so caught
Speaker:up in the day-to-day business is business and, you know, cash flow and all those
Speaker:things that are fun things to deal with, and it's like, oh yeah, this is
Speaker:what we're doing Second one. This is great. So my customers and my team,
Speaker:they motivate the hell out of me. So given that you've listened to several
Speaker:of the episodes, and I appreciate you listening, never take listenership for granted as a
Speaker:podcaster. I appreciate people taking an hour of your day
Speaker:per episode. But now that you know the audience is your peers, your
Speaker:colleagues in the space, I always like to leave some time at the end of
Speaker:each of these now for you. And if you have a message, if you have
Speaker:anything you want to say to folks in industry, your colleagues, People listening,
Speaker:anything come to mind? Yeah, I think the message that I want to get across
Speaker:a little bit is, you know, all of the hype out there, all of the
Speaker:advertising, all of the good news is all about typically
Speaker:things that never happen or never will happen. You know, it's the
Speaker:100,000 or 200,000 square foot farms that
Speaker:may never make any money. And I think I really just want to focus, and
Speaker:I think it's one of your last podcasters, I think it was Ali, had mentioned,
Speaker:Small to medium farms. Like, you— this is actually a real thing.
Speaker:The reason that we're— and again, I'm not against the large farms, but
Speaker:the reason at least we got into this is to fix the broken food model.
Speaker:And just to duplicate it indoors, to me, isn't really fixing it. It's just
Speaker:doing the same. You know, my, you know, my wife and
Speaker:I, but mostly my wife, you know, we are farmers in our local community.
Speaker:They go to— we go to— she goes to the farmer's market. She's connected to
Speaker:her buyers. That is invaluable. And that's the one thing
Speaker:I think we need to get back to. And this is— we can do, and
Speaker:you can make money, and you can be that local farmer in downtown Toronto or
Speaker:New York or LA or Chicago or where have you. And you can have
Speaker:your group of customers who get to know the farmer and understand
Speaker:what you're going through and understand all that concept. And you can actually make some
Speaker:money and you can provide food security. And it's back to the family
Speaker:farm. And that's what we're doing, reselling and retraining the
Speaker:family farm. And you take a look at the farming industry as a whole, and
Speaker:again, from the traditional side, it's dwindling more and more. There's less farmers,
Speaker:the age is going up and up, it's consolidating. And the barrier to entry is
Speaker:you just can't buy farmland anymore. You can't do that. It's just not
Speaker:available. This is actually a way of getting more people back into agriculture and back
Speaker:into being connected with the food that you eat. And I
Speaker:just, I want people, I want the industry to stop only focusing on
Speaker:the huge massive farms that get all the credit. And I think
Speaker:they're important. I really do. I'm not against them. But there's also that small and
Speaker:medium good news story where somebody can start this farm
Speaker:and have a local following of people in their little local area and in their
Speaker:local community. And you can get to know your farmer and buy your vegetables. I
Speaker:think we need to not forget that. Local is the new
Speaker:organic. Local is better than organic now.
Speaker:Well, Eric, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation. I learned a
Speaker:lot, and these all get me excited. These all get me motivated at the future
Speaker:of what's possible. I really appreciate you coming on, sharing your story.
Speaker:Zipgrow.com if folks want to learn more about the company. Anywhere else you want to
Speaker:point people to? Zipgrow.com, ZipPod, our new container
Speaker:farms, ZipGarden, our new in-house bundle.
Speaker:Yeah, and anything that people can do to educate the world that this is If
Speaker:that's where we're gonna end up having to be, I'm all over it. Yeah. I
Speaker:appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. Thanks, Eric. I appreciate your time. Thanks
Speaker:again to Eric for coming on the show and sharing his story. As always, full
Speaker:show notes available at verticalfarmingpodcast.com. Thanks to
Speaker:our season 6 title sponsor, Cultivated. If you're looking into a vertical farm and don't
Speaker:know where to start or which technology would suit your needs, reach out to them
Speaker:today. Best of all, their service is free because they work on behalf of their
Speaker:partners. Learn more at cultivated.com, and that's spelled
Speaker:C-U-L-T-I-V-A-T-D dot com. Just leave out that last E.
Speaker:Podcast production marketing provided by Fullcast. Learn more at fullcast.co.
Speaker:And as a reminder, if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and
Speaker:a review at ratethispodcast.com/vfp. We'll be sure to
Speaker:read those out on future episodes. Okay, we're back on track. So tune
Speaker:in next episode for our conversation with Magdalena.
Speaker:Sworska of Nanga Tech. I was able to catch
Speaker:her presentation at Indoor AgTech NYC earlier this year and
Speaker:was grateful for us to find some time to chat. So make sure you tune
Speaker:into that. Until we meet again, here's to your health. Thanks for listening.
Speaker:To read the full show notes for this episode, which includes any links
Speaker:mentioned in the episode, as well as a full show transcription, visit
Speaker:verticalfarmingpodcast.com. There, You can sign up
Speaker:for our email list to be notified when new episodes are published.
Speaker:$680 million poured into precision ag last year.
Speaker:Autonomous weeding robots dominated, and John Deere made 2 acquisitions in
Speaker:3 months. A food company, not an equipment maker, bought a
Speaker:robotics startup to protect its own supply chain. The deals are
Speaker:accelerating, the money is moving, and the winners are already separating from the
Speaker:pack. If you're investing, building, or buying in this space,
Speaker:you need the full picture before your competitors get it. The 2025
Speaker:Precision Agriculture Intelligence Report from iGrow News is
Speaker:now available. Get your copy today at
Speaker:igrownews.com/precision.
