Relentless Leadership with Perry Maughmer

Episode 72 • 27th April 2022 • Spirit of EQ • Jeff East and Eric Pennington

Joining us today is Perry Mothmer, uh, who is the founder of Mothmer and Company, LLC. Perry is a guest that has been on with us before in the early, early days, • and he's back with us. A little bit about Perry is that Mother and Company, LLC is a, uh, human potentiality consultancy that focus exclusively on inspiring and empowering leaders to create a better world for themselves, their families, their communities and their organizations, and does an integrated set of offerings centered on community clarity and coalition. • • • • So with that, Perry, welcome to the Spirit of EQ Podcast.

Thanks a lot, Eric. Happy to be here.

Well, as I've said to Jeff, Hello, Jeff. Again, • • • • • um, • • • we've been talking about we need to get Perry back. We need to get Perry back. And of course, time just flies on by and we didn't get it done. But you're here, so we're happy about that. • Um, • • one of the things that I mentioned to you, Perry, earlier on when I sent the invitation, is that we wanted to get an update on relentless leadership. Obviously, the concept of that, maybe for our audience, it will be a refresh as to what that's all about, because it's not just a business model or anything. I know you well enough that it's more than that. And then certainly, I want to hear about how it's being applied inside of the worlds that you run. And then we've got some other very tasty questions and commentary. Right, right. See, Jeff is laughing. He's prepared. So, Perry, tell us a little bit relentless leadership. Let's start from kind of the beginning. What's that all about?

All right, so I define it as the intentional exploration of the art and science of positively impacting the emotional States of those we care about. • • • • •

Wow. • • • • So, • • • • • um, that's a good set of ideas. Um, • • • • one of the things that struck me about this, I remember the first time you told me you were going to start embarking on this journey. I'm going, man. He's consciously saying it's a few. And I remember it • • • kind of got me a little like, um, uncomfortable • because you know how this is, right? You want to believe that everyone. Oh, certainly everybody. • • • But you were making the argument that • • • • • • not that the majority of people are not going to ever do anything of value, but to get to this place of where leadership is being led or is being exhibited in a high level. Is it the few? Is that what you were saying? • •

Uh, • yeah, I think it is. Now, I will agree with you. Um, so there's a little phrase all can most won't few do, • • • • • • right?

Lovely.

You're right. Everybody can. Uh, in fact, my goal • • • • • • is to instigate, provoke people to understand that they have both the capability and duty to be the leader they were meant to be. But that's a choice. • • Everybody's not going to choose that. And that's okay, by the way. Like, there's no judgment in anything we talk about.

Right.

So if they don't want to, that's fine. But most certainly everybody can. • • • One of the premises I work on is that everybody has what it takes for them to be a leader already inside of them. • • •

Yes. Um, • • • • I guess in some ways I was looking, oddly enough, here comes the musical reference, Jeff, so I couldn't get around it. I think the audience is probably getting tired of me just saying they're just kind of expecting it now, I would imagine. So I see this photograph of one of my favorite drummers, Steve Gadd, who is a monster of a drummer, played for Eric Clapton and Fill in the Bank, James Taylor. You go through the list, but he's phenomenal. He's got to be close to • • • close to 70, maybe even a little older. But I looked at him in this photograph. He looks phenomenal. • • • He's in shape. • • • • • There's this glow about him. • • And then I've seen other pictures, some in my family, right, where it's like, wow, • • • you know, and this is no judgment if you're not in shape. That's not my point here. It's just that I think he must have taken a conscious, intentional • • • • view of his health to some degree. Obviously, I haven't interviewed him. I don't know exactly what he's done, but it appears so is that kind of • • • where we're going with this, too? It is a decision.

Well, everything is right. And leadership requires a great deal of energy. • • • • • • • • Uh, and some of the other stuff that I do with Vistage groups, we always have at least one speaker a year that comes in to talk about health because it's sleep. It's what you eat, it's if you get exercise, because you can't pour from an empty cup. And so • when your car runs out of gas, you don't will it to keep running. • • • Right. But yet routinely, leaders will not get enough sleep, not take care of themselves, and just continue to think, well, I have to get this done. I'll just power through the next week. I'll just power through. And ultimately, that doesn't work. Uh, I use two words for people. Always when they come up with strategies sustainable and scalable. • • I have to be able to do it over a long period of time, and I have to be able to build onto it. Right. So whenever we're thinking about something we're going to do, we should really think about, is this sustainable over time? And is it scalable? Is it a solid enough Foundation I can build on?

Yeah, • • • • • • that's powerful. • • Um, • • • so • • when you look at, • um, • • • • • the world in which you run, • let's keep for now, with relentless leadership, how's the reception to the ideas, the concepts and whatnot then for you?

Oh, fantastic. • • • • • • • Since we were together last, • • • let's see, I've had two companies graduate • • • • • back to the few, right?

Yes.

So I make it purposefully • • • challenging for people to do it. So • it's a 17 month program. • • Right. Part of that is because • • I really did a lot of research around neuroscience and how we learn. And there has to be some spacing involved. • • In my opinion, sending somebody to a one or two day seminars like lighting your money on fire, it's just the forgetting curve. You're going to this and then you're done, right? You don't have anything. And so part of this is spacing. It's retention. It's really trying to learn something. And so that's one of the reasons. And the other is I wanted them to commit because we're going I tell people it's like an Odyssey, a long, dangerous journey, and that's what you're going to embark on. And at the end of the 17 months is actually the beginning of the Odyssey. It's not the end, it's the beginning. • • We've just prepped everybody and now they can actually go because it's an individual Odyssey. Like, you have to now move forward on your own with all of the concepts, because everything we talk about, too, is descriptive, not prescriptive. So nothing I do is telling you how to do anything. That's why I call it an intentional exploration, because all we're going to do is explore concepts. We're going to talk about what those mean to everybody, individually and collectively. So I've had two companies graduate, two leadership teams, and then I've got currently four in it. • • And what's awesome about it is the groups we have together. It doesn't matter what the reporting structure is or what level people are in an organization, because there's nothing we're talking about in there that you can't talk about with somebody that you report to or somebody that reports to you • • when you • • • set out to introduce the program. • • • •

Um, did you apply • • • what were the sort of the criteria for determining who you would approach about it • • as it relates to the business model • • or anybody who is interested. • • • • •

What I mean by that isn't from a selling standpoint. • • • • • • • • • • • • • There's, uh, an old Zen saying, when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

Yes, right. • • •

I think when the people are ready, the concept appears like the solution appears to people when they're primed for it. And so I haven't sold this yet, • • • • • • • • • • • • actually, it came out of the fact that I'm talking to lots of leaders and they're complaining. They're saying I'm struggling because I can't get people to understand this or to lead. And my question back to them was, • • what do you mean by that? Uh, like, what do you mean by leadership in your organization? • • • • • • • And there was no response. It was just kind of a blank stare. It was like, what's? Just what it means. • • All right, well, that might be part of the challenge.

Yeah. • •

Go back to • • when you talked about, • • • um, • • • when they're in this program that it's something that everybody can talk about to each other. • • How much of a problem is it to get over the • • • • • • • • hierarchy or • • • I'm the boss you're the employee. • • • You know what I'm saying?

No, I understand completely. And it's, uh, psychological safety, right? I have to have psychological safety in that environment. And that's one of the things I do. The orientation, if you want to call it the orientation meeting, is everybody has to commit to that. That's part of what I talked to them about. I'm like, • • you guys have to be okay with this, and you have to genuinely be okay with it. And it's been transformational. I mean, I've had companies where • • we sat in to me, there's 15 people, and one of the people turned to their supervisor and said, I don't believe you. I think the only reason you come talk to me is because you want me to get my work done. I don't believe you care about me. • • • • • And the other person • • took it • • • • • and said, well, that's not true. • • • • We have to do something about that, because I don't want you to feel like that. • • •

So how much of your program is built on this communication part of it?

Well, there's actually two components now. • • • • • We can get to one of them later. I've actually created a product that an individual can just go ahead and access on their own if they want to do it on their own. The one we're talking about is monthly meetings that I facilitate with the leadership team. And so that's core to it is the communication core to it is the open sharing of ideas and what we really feel and not what we talk about when we go back to the office. And the feedback I've gotten from teams is it fundamentally changes the way they communicate.

Okay.

Because • • • • • • they take that same ability to be honest and open and transparent with each other back to the office, and they can get more done. •

One of the tools that we have in our toolbox, um, • EQ, is a team vital signs. And the center of that is trust. • • •

Yes, absolutely. • • • And Perry, when you mentioned about, um, • • • • • the not selling of the product is really • • powerful. • • • And this idea of, um, • • • because it'd be easy, right. If you're out there pitching your product, you're always thinking of in terms of who can I get to do, who can I get to choose and all of that. So that's really refreshing. That your ideas that ultimately I'm offering. And if it's right, you'll know, it. And we'll have a conversation. • • • Um, • • • • • • • • • • • • where do you see for the companies that have graduated, • • • what are some of their aspirations of what will happen • • now that they've graduated? Is it, oh, Perry, we want part two, or is it, let's go ahead and apply some of this and give Perry updates. How does that work?

Um, it's still in process. Okay. But it's leaning towards the first one.

Okay.

Which is we were meeting every month for 17 months, and then • it's, uh, essentially they're afraid of going cold Turkey. •

Uh, • • they're almost weaning themselves.

Yeah. So then we're talking about maybe meeting on a quarterly basis and updates and talking about what's it look like. And to be quite honest with you, • • • • I envision. And this is when I started it. It's called relentless leadership. Right. So the mantra that I use for leaders is explore, experiment evolve. It's a cycle. Explore, experiment evolve. Right. Well, that's what I'm doing. So I don't envision the actual content staying the same • • • • because I go back in and as I work with people and find new information, • • the content itself is going to be changing. And so there's always going to be different things that come out of it and newer things that update to make the points better than I made them before. •

And this will blow the minds of some of our audience, maybe a lot of our audience. I remember, • um, • • • • • • there was an interview with Herbie Hancock, and they were asking him about his time with Miles Davis. • • Yeah, there he is.

Yes.

Well, I told you, I warned you. And • • he talked about how, • • um, • • • • Herbie Hancock was a very methodical, analytical guy. It was kind of like, well, okay, the chart, the progressions, and then we queue. And that wasn't Miles his way. And he asked him, okay, well, when are we going to rehearse and practice? And he said, when we get on stage tonight. • • • • • And it really kind of panicked him a bit because I was like, wait a minute, • • we're in Stuttgart and there's going to be thousands of people. And he said, this is how we evolve. • • • • • We apply it then. • • • • Now, certainly an audience, please hear me out. I think it's pretty well known that Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis, John Colton, those folks were very gifted, talented musicians, but I don't believe it's limited to just artists. Musicians. I believe, • • again, if it's the right client, the right team, • • • why can you not do that? Why can't it not be? Iterative, • • • • • • but it has to be. • • • • •

If you think of the analogy, and I'll go with the, uh, golf analogy, since the Masters was this weekend, • • • • golf is probably a great one to do because it's most pronounced. If you look at the total amount of time that a professional golfer practices versus plays, quote, unquote, • • 95, if you look at the sheer volume of hours, 95 plus percent of it is practiced. • • • Right. And then that's. So I can perform at the highest level for the other 5% of the time. Nobody • • in a leadership role gets the same opportunity. • • You have to practice as you go. • You have to practice in real time. Because • • • • if we talk about explore, experiment evolved, I can't experiment with a new behavior • in a vacuum.

Exactly. • • • •

I have to consciously do it in an interaction with somebody. There's an inherent risk. • • • • • Right. Because I don't know how it's going to go, so I have to be okay with that. Uh, first of all, it's like metacognition. I have to think about thinking, • • • right? I have to think about what I'm doing, and then I have to consciously decide to behave differently. Because, to be honest with you, I truly believe that a person's success in their life will be directly proportional to how much they can make their behavior subservient to their goal. • • • • • Right? Because as a leader, I have to choose my behaviors, not let my behaviors choose my outcomes. • Okay.

So in the program that you're working with people, • • there's some failure built into it in this experiment. • • • • • •

Experiment by nature requires failure.

Okay?

And that's what I have to get people. • • And so I use the scientific method. It's always funny because I stay in business, we do the opposite, because scientific method, you come up with a hypothesis, and then you work to disprove it. And if I can't disprove it, it's correct. And then business with the exact opposite. We come up with an idea, and then we work like hell to prove it and defend it and make it work no matter what, because it's our idea. And so as a leader, we have to take on the experimental side, which is, I'm going to experiment, which requires failure.

I think there's a big example that everybody's been talking about with Theranos. • • • • • •

But it's that way everywhere. We all do it every day. • • • Any leader in the organization makes a hiring decision, and then • they're going to stick with it, stick with it, stick with it, because they decided it was their decision, a strategy decision. We're going to go after this market. It's not working. Yes, it will. We just have to keep. • • But if we look at that, uh, and that's why it's experiment is purposeful, that word. Because experiments require failure • • and they fail more than they work. But that's okay, • • because we're iterating and we're never done. • • • Uh, • • • • • my wife didn't think was motivating, but the tagline I wanted to use for leadership was, you're done when you're dead. • • • • • • • • • • I thought it was motivating. • • • • • • • • • • •

True, though.

But it goes back to one of my favorite stories is Sisyphus, • • the rock rolling the rock up the Hill. And it took hundreds of years until, • • • • uh, Albert Camus in the 40s said, Time out. • • • This is actually a positive thing, because when Sisyphus is standing at the top of the mountain covered in sweat and blood and mud, and he's watching the rock roll back down the Hill, at that moment, Sisyphus is happy • • • because he got the rock to the top of the Hill. It doesn't matter that it rolled back down the Hill, and that's us. • • We all have a rock, • right?

And we should be thankful that we have a rock kind of pivoting a little bit as we look at the current business environment. And those that you interact with, whether they be • • those have gone through relentless leadership or investigation or just in general, maybe over a beer somewhere. Um, • • how are they processing all this rapid change right now. Give me some examples. Good and bad or whatever.

Well, I think, uh, the best one that affects that seems to be coming up, • uh, a lot across every industry is, • • uh, back to work. • We're going to bring people back to the office.

Mhm. • • •

If we are, what are the rules going to be? • • • • • • • • • • • • Well, every month I talked to probably 80 plus business leaders in Columbus, and I can tell you it's all over the board • • • • how often we're going to do it. If we're going to do it, it's changing. Then people want, by and large. • • • Okay, so one of the challenges we face as a leader and as a human, is wanting certainty. • • • • Um, • • in fact, I would argue that any anxiety we have, any stress we experience is due for is one reason and one reason only. • • The world does not do what we wanted to do. We have certain expectations, and they aren't met. So therefore, we have stress • that's entirely on us because we can change our expectations. • • • • • • • We are not now, we never have been, and we will never be in control. • •

One of the most liberating • • Rivers to cross for me was when I could say this is actually really true. • • I do not have control over anything. And instead of it being this moment of, okay, what am I going to do? Or, oh, my gosh, • • it was like all this weight, • • • • • • • • • like things got lighter.

It's a moment of surrender. Yeah, right. But it requires humility. It requires humility to know you're not in control and to be okay with it. Because as a leader, you're not in control. You're not in control of people. You ever try to make somebody do something? I mean, you have positional, authority. • • Theoretically, I can, I can make you do something, but that just damaged the relationship irreparably.

Yeah, right.

So I can influence. Leadership is influence. If nobody's following, nobody's leading. • •

I want to go back to what you just said because, uh, I've heard that definition before. Many times, leadership is influence. But when you think about what influence is versus • • telling and • • prescribing and pushing, it's really different, right? I mean, what we're doing today • • is going to have influence. • • We didn't set this up to say, okay, Perry, tell us, how do we do relentless leadership? You didn't say, okay, step one, you've got to stop this. Step two, you've got to start this. You got to subscribe • • whatever. • • And I think that's one of the missing parts, • • because obviously leadership is thrown around like • • • • • • • • it's thrown around like crazy everywhere. I think that really focusing in on what does influence mean. Right? So • • when they are all over the map and you mentioned about the idea of what causes anxiety, the world's not doing what I wanted to do, • • • kind of going toward the, um, • • • sort of the positive and inspirational side of things. Do you think of a leader who you've seen. You don't have to name them, obviously, but who's kind of, like, gone from being man, I'm really frustrated because the world is not doing what I wanted to do to being able to surrender.

There are people that I work with that get facets of that.

Okay? • • • •

It's a very hard thing, • • especially if you.

And there's no permanence to it either, right? Because it's not some arrival point.

No, but you're constantly tested, • • right? You're constantly tested to give up that control and to recognize you don't have it. And to live in that uncertainty and to live with the fact that I can't make anything happen. I can't make my company profitable. • • Now, I will tell you that in the current scenario, • • there's a lot more people willing to talk about the concept • • • • because of staffing issues, • • • • • • because the reality is setting in that you're not in control. • • And you thought you were. It's a fallacy of control. But now you understand that • • there aren't all these people out there. • The funny thing is, everybody wants to know why. • • • • Everybody wants a reason. • • • • • • • • • When I talk to them, I'm like, who cares? And first of all, it's a wicked problem. So there's a really interesting if you ever have a chance to look it up, there's actually a definition for a wicked problem, and they use it in sociology. And • • • • • • one, uh, of the components of a wicked problem is that a solution actually changes the problem to something else. Like it causes a new problem. And so • • • • the challenge of what I try to get people to understand is, • uh, like the great resignation, whatever they want to call it. It's a very complex issue. • • There are multiple things. There's no one reason. There's no six reasons, right? • • So spending all of that time and effort, and again, I go back to humility. Spending all that time and effort is ego to try to figure it out. I'm smarter than everybody else. I'm going to figure it out. There's a reason we just got to keep studying. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter. What matters is ahead of you, not what's behind you. Right? So you spend all that time, and now you have the answer. • • • • • • • • • What does that help?

Right?

It doesn't help anything, but I go back to humility. It's having the humility to know what's important. • • And where should I focus my effort for the greatest impact? • • • • • I tell people all the time, • • you want to be right, you want to be successful. Sometimes you can't be both. • • • • • • • • • •

That's • • good. I wanted to, • • um, • • • • • kind of connect that, too. And it's just my imagination, Jeff, and I'm going to kind of pull you in here about with our emotions.

Okay? • •

So at various times, regardless of where you're at in your growth, • um, • • • • • • some of the things, period that we're talking about can cause a swirl, if you will, of, uh, multiple types of emotions that are coming right now in many situations. Jeff, right? • • Uh, people construe that as something to be afraid of, or it's something that causes anxiety. What have you. I heard this from Jim Vave last Thursday. We're in a session, • • • and the question comes up, what do you do when you have all these emotions that are swirling? And I had this image in my head of, like, seeing birds just continually just • • • • circling. • • And this person, I mean, • • genuinely, what do I do when it happens? • • • • Could I do this? • • • And Jim just says, • • • • stand still. • • • • • Just stand still. He didn't say it to me directly, but the idea around a lot of our work is • • • emotions are data • • • communicating something to you. Right. Not that you're going to get it all at once, sitting one session, whatever. But this idea is that there's a dissipation point. • • Right. And I think so many times, Perry, • • we want • back to the control thing. I want to stop these emotions. • • • • I want these three, but I don't want those eight. How do I get rid of them? And on and on and on. • • • • •

Sometimes when those birds are flying over, just hold up an umbrella. • • •

And I know that in that sense, I communicate in a way. It's like, okay, I'm going to be steal • • • again. It's not about, here's what you do. Right. And here's how you solve. • • • I've spent so much of my life chasing answers and spending very little time • • lingering in the question. And some of that, if not a lot of that, was rooted in my pursuit of control. Because if I get an answer, then I, uh, have what I consider to be stability, security, and all the rest. Right. • • So what I'm leading to here is, • • • um, • • you mentioned before we came on air about vacation and about some approaches you were taking and how historically you handle vacations. I think that's a really good • • • • • because you communicated. At least what I felt, Perry, was this idea of developing a new practice • • in order to create the kind of ground where you can grow so that when you take another vacation or you take time away or you decide, today is not going to be a day where I'm going to be whatever. What are some of the ways you've personally set out to do that? Was it because you saw, like, hey, whenever I'm on vacation, I'm stressed, I'm not doing whatever. What kind of said, I need to make a change?

Well, I'll go back to the definition of relentless leadership.

Okay.

Right. So what I said was, in the beginning, when you asked me, was it's talking about the art and science • • of making a positive impact on the emotional States of people we care about? • • • • • • • • Here's where humility comes in. Didn't do it for me, did it for my wife, • • • • because I wanted to positively impact her emotional state and behavior. • That goal became more important than what I was comfortable with. • • • •

Wow.

And that's a growth opportunity. And I will tell you, Lisa tells me, because I have these conversations with her, and it's so funny because she'll say, I don't want you to change for me. And I said, I'm not changing for you. I'm changing to be a better human. I'm changing because of you, not for you.

That was in my drop audience. If you did, • • • • • • • • • • that's awesome. That is awesome. Because there's something that you said there, • um, • • • • that really, really leaped out to me. • • • Um, • • this idea of, • • um, • • the why behind it.

Right. • • •

Um, and the motivation to do it. Right. I think what can happen. • • • And vacations are really not, uh, for those in the audience, it's not that we're lasering in on what do you do to have a better relaxing vacation? • Because this happens in multiple areas of life. Right. Perry mhm • what was her response to that?

It was, by and large, • • • she, uh, was shocked. • • And I share with you, like, there were a couple of days, I just kind of sat by the pool and did nothing. I read books, but I didn't do anything. And we weren't up going places. I wasn't on my email. I wasn't doing anything. I was just being • right. And she noticed it. • She kind of chuckled. She's like, this is great. I've, uh, never seen you do this before. And I said, well, I'm trying to evolve • • • • • back to explore, experiment, evolve. I'm trying to evolve. And I think • • what we have to understand is that we don't believe things because they're true. They're true because we believe them. • • • • • • • • So if I believe something about myself, it's true. If I choose to believe something else that can also be true. So we have to be very cognizant. And I want to revisit your example, because you talked about the person who said, I want these emotions, not these. What should I do when all these things are swollen around me? I think if we go to the root of that, • • • • • the thing for that person is to understand is they were judging themselves. • • They were judging the emotions. I got news for you. There are no bad emotions.

Thank you. • • • •

There's a great book. It's called The Upside to Our Dark Side. We need all those emotions, • • right. So we should never try to sort them out. We should never say only want these. In fact, I would say there is toxic positivity. Right. There is such a thing as toxic positivity. And • • • • • • • • just like we have to sit with the quiet, we should also sit with all of our emotions and understand them. What are they telling us?

Yeah, right.

I need all of those. Like, I need all of those to be whole.

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Well, I would want to dive into why they think that about themselves, because • • • • • • • we have to get to the root of our own issues. • • • • We have to get to the root of why we believe in it. And it's at some point, we're going to be strong enough to be the person • • we want to be and we're meant to be and not who the world tells us to be. • • • • • • Right. And I know there's inherent risk in that, • • but that's the cognitive dissonance that we all experience most days, which is just what people expect or what companies expect on what we want. Right. There's a gap. And so we work to bridge that gap in that case with a lot of other people. They just conform. • • • • • Yeah, right. And so there's a cost of that. And by the way, • it's okay • • • • • • • • if people get nothing else out of this discussion. Whatever you're feeling, whatever you're doing, there's no judgment involved in that. And we should give ourselves Grace when it comes to the things we're going through, because we're going through them. We're the ones going through them, and we should never should on ourselves. • • • • • • I should do this. I should do this.

No, • you need to do • • • • • when I'm debriefing somebody, one of our competencies is empathy. And when you ask somebody, how much empathy do you have for yourself? • I've never thought of that.

Usually it's very little.

Right. • • •

I, uh, forget who said it, but if the voice in your head were your friend, how long would you be friends with them exactly? •

Oh, yeah. • • • • • • • Uh, • • • • • • um, • • • I don't know how to say this. Um, • • I'm recovering at the bad habit or the tendency • to want to second guess every decision I've ever made and how I could have done three steps to the left and if I would have started at X, Y and Z. So as a recovering person in that regard, uh, one of the things that's been most liberating for me is to understand my life as it is formed into a story. • • • • And I might have used this before in a previous show. • • • What movie or book would you read where everything went, like, linear? It'd be quite boring.

Right. • •

What are the movies, the books we read that are most compelling, especially when we're talking about fictional or maybe a biography. It's when they started off in this and then there was this great crisis • • and then there was this triumphantness. Right. Or whatever the case may be. And I think for me, it was kind of understanding. • • • • • • • • • • • • Um, • • • • the power of the story • • • • is most exhibited when I let the story • • • become • • if I'm saying it that way. Right. I'm saying it the right way. • • • Because then again, underline, I'm recovering because I hated that before, • • • • 15 years ago. It's like, no, • • • • I've got to figure out what's the answer. How do I fix this? • • • • • And I think sometimes when people • • get into this, • • I call it loop. • • • • • Um, • • • they are self judging. • They are going, well, nobody wants to be this. So I need to be that right. • • • • When it comes, Perry to the role of the employer. And I've always landed on the side of that. • • • It's a shared responsibility thing. I don't believe an employer is there to make me happy and to make everything go the way I want it to go and provide me with whatever. • • • However, • when this friend of mine had made this comment to me, these comments, • • I thought, well, what role do they have? They're watching it twelve to 15 hours a week. That's a lot. • • • • • Does the leader have a responsibility to say, • • • time out? Let's look at what we're doing here, because I don't think twelve or 15 hours a week is really healthy. • • • And Jeff, I'll throw you into this too. Do they share some responsibility in this kind of thing?

I think there's • two sides to it. • • One is, yeah, probably. But I think the employee probably has the biggest responsibility.

And I also think that, um, • • • there has to be clarification on it if that's being overtly expected.

Right.

Because a lot of this could be inferred • • from the employee. Yeah, I need to do this because that's what they want. Do they? Maybe if you said, look, there's more work here than I can get done and I'm working twelve to 15 hours days. • • • Um, • • the leader might say, Hold on, that was not our intention. • • What's wrong here? If there's something wrong, let me know. Maybe we can read. But there has to be a certain level of transparency and communication. • You will not believe the number of times that I meet with people and they walk through this issue, • • any issue. Right, that involves another human • • • and they get done and I say, alright, • • • did you tell them what you just told me? • • • And 99% of the time the response is, well, no. • • • • • • Okay, well, how are they supposed to know? • • • • • You assume they do. You're certain they know because you know. • • But • • • if I had to give you an oath right now, could you swear that they know? Well, no, but they should. Okay, I understand that. But if I don't know what's going on, I can't fix it. • • • • • I can't be part of the solution. If I'm not aware there's a problem.

Yeah.

And so part of it, I think, is just the transparency and the willingness to have that conversation with whoever about whatever.

Yeah. Because in, uh, fairness to the employers out there, they may only be looking at it from a results perspective. If the project was due in a certain amount of time and it came in on time, they may very well not go well. How many hours did it take you to do this? How many hours were you working on average? • Um, matter of fact, I almost daresay they probably wouldn't, because they're measuring it by project was due on X date. The project has been delivered. Let's move on to the next thing.

And maybe he's being rewarded for working all those hours, but he's not very efficient.

Another one of those areas of. • • • • • • • •

Those. There's no single answer to that.

Right.

But the challenge again, I'm reading this really great book right now. It's called I Think, Therefore I'm Wrong. • • • •

That's a great title.

And part of what he's talking about is all the cognitive biases that we have. And so our willingness to step away from an issue that we're facing and actually look at all of the components and understand that there's probably a half a dozen of them that are at play. Not one, not two, not three. Yeah. • • • • • • • • • • • • Again, we need to get rid of binary thinking. • • • • Right. Our brain defaults to binary thinking. It's either or • • in that case, even the way you phrase the question, what share is it the employer or the employee? Again, there's a false dichotomy.

Right. It's nondualistic.

Right. But our brain • • • and part of religious leadership is. There's a whole section on • • • how our brain works, because we have to understand that for • • all can, most few do. • • Most people won't do the work to figure out that they're not actually in control. Their brain is. • • And those are two very different things, because • • • we can be in charge of our brain. But if we're not careful, our brain is in charge of us. • • • •

Yeah. And, um, that's a good, uh, • • • pivot point to Perry, because I wanted to talk a little bit about neuroscience and growth • and, • • • um, • • • • a talk that I gave a couple of weeks ago, • • • • um, • • • • one of the things that I laid out • • in, uh, brief was about the power that the brain has in determining whether or not you will make a change or you will decide to go left, go right or whatever, and about how ultimately our brains are working to make our lives easy and efficient. It's just • • • • • right. And the idea being right. So, • • • um, my example is the lead into this group in our bathroom • • • • • in the area where the sinks were. We used to have a, uh, big clock. • • And a lot of times I would use this clock to determine how nervous I would be about how late I was. Right. And I would have this flooded strategy of. Okay, all right. If I get finished washing and shaving here, I should probably I'll be out the door in about five minutes and I could look up at the clock. Well, my wife, who is the decorator in, uh, our family basically said we're getting rid of the clock. We don't need a clock anymore. That was about • • two months ago. • • Now, in the beginning, • • Terry, uh, Jeff, I would find myself looking up to where the clock was because that was my default. Okay, I'm shaving. What time is it? Okay, I've got. All right, boom. A couple of days, a week, a month. I did it this morning, two months later. • • Now, we talked to maybe the exhaustion about the idea of neural pathways and what we do. Um, • • • • • though there's no true science behind what I'm saying • • in this as, uh, much as one thing is very clear to me • • • that my brain was using that. Ok, this is easy. You see that? You've got 20 minutes. If you've finished shaving in five, you look up to see where you're at, you're at three. Because that would make my life efficient. That would make. Okay, this is easy. I know I look clock, blah, blah, blah. • • So • • • • • you mentioned about the idea about not knowing. I don't know if you said exactly like this, but this idea of not knowing what role your brain is playing in this game of life we're in, • • • um, as it relates to growth. And • • • • I heard this guy, Andrew Huberman, I don't know if you've heard of him. It's Huberman Lab is his podcast. It's fantastic podcast. And he talks about when people, for example, are starting a new habit or wanting to break a habit, they encounter something called limbic friction. • • • • And I used to term it as your brain is • • resisting change. So can you talk a little bit about and even if it's outside of relentless leadership, what are some of the things that you feel like? Hey, you could tell our audience that. • • • • • • • • • • How can I get to know my brain better? How about that?

Well, • • • • I think you just mentioned one, which is a podcast or something. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • So we get a baseline.

Yes.

So as far as • science will tell you, if you do a lot of reading, that our brains, the brain we currently operate with, • • was got to its current state. It depends on who you read somewhere 20 to 50,000 years ago. • • • So our brain hasn't changed • since then. Well, so it was formed to help us live in a group of 75 to 100 people and be a Hunter gather • • with wild animals. Right. So that was our environment. And by the way, if we were outcast, we died. If we weren't accepted in society, we died. • • So that's what our brain does. Our brain works on the try to motivation, pleasure, avoid pain, conserve energy. That's what our brain does. • • So • • our brain is not uh, meant to operate in our world. • • And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just realization that I should question the stuff that I think • • • • • that's it. • Just ask yourself, why do I think • • this? Why do you think people eat the way they eat it's? Because our brain is saying high, dense caloric things are good because we don't know when we're going to eat again, because our brain existed then. So you didn't eat all the time, like you weren't able to do that. And so we make lots of decisions and we think we're thinking, but we're not. • • And so it's just the understanding. I guess the first thing I would just tell people is just don't believe everything you think. • • • •

Yes. And, um, • • I know that even when I posed this to you before the show, um, about neuroscience, this can be a really deep river. • • • However, • • you make some really good points there, Perry. • Uh, • • • • and the thing that's leaping out to me • • is about don't believe everything you think. Right. Where do you believe? Because • • you've told me this before about the brain being it hasn't evolved after this 20,000 years or what have you? And I used to think, • • well, but isn't it capable of doing the job that we needed to do? Yes. But you really, you gave me the missing link in what you said to me. And I'm talking about when you and I had these one on one discussion, but it's this idea of, • • are we questioning what we're thinking? And it kind of comes to that. And we've had this, Jeff, where we talked about the idea of asking yourself, • • • • is what I'm thinking right now true? • • • And then I add to, uh, it because I know who I am. • • Is it really true? • • • • • • • • • • Is it true? And is it really true? And I think that's • • a phenomenal way from a base level to begin to. Okay, question that, question it a little bit. • • • • • • What role happens once we get past that? • • Uh, if I've developed a practice where I'm consistently asking myself, obviously there's going to be some things that will dissipate, go away potentially. Right. And there'll be things you'll add on or whatever. How, um, do we keep it healthy? • • • What's, one way or two that maybe you'd say we can keep it a healthy relationship, • • • • a healthy relationship with our brain and how we interact with our brain.

Well, I think, again, it goes back to, • you know, • • we clear the first hurdle.

Right.

So we're questioning everything that we think. We're not believing everything. But the next then in that gap, what are we thinking? • • • • • So • • • I'm going to question this stuff that I'm thinking, but then, am I purposely putting the thoughts in there that I want? And it goes back to, • • • am I making the decisions that I can make to further myself towards my goal, • • • • back to relentless leadership. Right. So • • • to me, the biggest thing we can do • • • is • • have a positive impact on the emotional States of people we care about. • • • Right. And so • • • • if that becomes my driver, if I want to do that, because I'm of the opinion that every interaction I have this part of relentless leadership. Every interaction I have is binary. • • • It's one of the few times I accept binary thinking, because in every interaction I have, I'm doing one of two things. I'm going to build somebody up or I'm going to tear them down. There is no middle ground. Nobody leaves a conversation going. I feel about the same. • • • • • So we have a choice. We have a choice to be able to when I go into an interaction, it's my goal to make that person, to build that person up. Now, • • I'm not saying that, uh, the toxic positivity or the rose colored glasses, because I might have to have a difficult conversation until that person is something they don't want to hear. • • • But I'm trying to help them. • •

The motivation.

Am I doing that, or am I just acting in a way that satisfies me? • • • • • • • • • • • Back to your question earlier, I guess that aligns with this is we talked about growth, right? Our brain resists growth. It resists growth because it hurts. • • • It takes more energy. Our brain, um, only takes up two to 3% of our body mass, and it requires 25% of our resting caloric intake to run. • • So our brain conserves energy. Thinking actually hurts. • • • • • It taxes us. So therefore, we don't do it too often because our brain doesn't want to. Our brain doesn't want to think about it. That's why all these cognitive biases exist, because they're shortcuts. • We don't have to think. Right. So to your point, how do you keep it healthy? The investment. Now I'm going to go all the way back around the barn to the thing we started with, which is our health. We have to stay healthy and full of energy because that energy is required to think. • • • •

Mhm.

So if we're worn out, if we're working twelve to 15 hours a day, I got news for you. There's not a lot of thinking going on there.

Wow.

Uh, because then what happens is we have ego depletion. Right? So if I am managing my behavior and all of that effort during the day to be civil to the people that I'm working with, even though I think they're an idiot or a moron, • • then we go home. And what does our family get? • • They get pure unfiltered me. Because all of that's gone. All of my defenses are gone. Now, I've used it all up on the people at work. So now you're just going to get whatever you get. So we treat the people in our lives that are most important, the worst, because we spend all of our energy to be civil to the people that don't matter • • powerful. • •

So that brings me to • • you had said earlier, • • um, a couple of times about • • those that we care most about. • • • And that certainly • • comes to mind. • Family, close friends, on, on and and on. • But I think it also has to do, I know, in our world. And, um, probably yours, too, your audience, those who depend on you when they're in that meeting. Right. And what you bring to them. • • And in between • • • the first book I wrote and the second book there was almost ten years. • • And I got the inevitable question, why does it take so long to write? • • And • • • • • • • • • • • I didn't have anything to say • • and I didn't want to write something just to write something. • • And that care. And I know the work that we do beyond the podcast is rude around. • • • • • Are we going to be able to offer something of value to them? Because anybody can go and get something. I mean, if you chase hard enough, • • • clever enough, lie enough, whatever it is you're going to use. • But that care piece is really big, Perry. And certainly • you're right. I think we would do well to pay more attention to those that are in our closest inner circle than necessarily our work and our business pursuits, because I think by default, a lot of times • • those business pursuits do get some of the best of ourselves. Right. • • • • • • • • • • • When you think about • • just practical resources, I mentioned Andrew Huberman and the Huberman Lab podcast. Uh, are there any books or podcasts that you find helpful? I mean, I know you're a ferocious consumer and reader and all that, but what would you throw out there for the audience?

Yeah, I think that, um, so • • there's a couple of podcasts I listen to regularly. • • One of them is Being a Better Human. The name of the podcast.

Okay.

Optimism. And it's only like: 2025

Well, yeah, that's the warning. For those of you out there that are interested in Andrew Huberman, it's typically 2 hours minimum. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • Um, so that's great. How, um, about books? You, um, mentioned one earlier, and I'm forgetting what it was. It was something about your, uh, brain. What was that? And our wonderful producer Brett will have all of this information in the show notes.

Well, I'll tell you the one, I just finished it. • • I've actually read a couple of books about neuroscience and coaching.

Okay.

And so those, I don't know that they're for everybody, • • • but I will tell you that I just read one called The Curse of the Self. • • • • • It's heavy reading, • but it's really insightful. Right. The other one that I'm reading right now, about two thirds of the way through, I'd recommend everybody, which is I think, therefore I am wrong.

Yes, that's the one. Sorry.

And then the other one that I think is fantastic is called the gap in the gain. • •

Okay.

Um, and so it's very interesting because what they talk about is that we should live in the gain and we live in the gap. • • • The gap is • • • we have the starting state, our current state, and our ideal state. So those two things on both sides of this equation. The challenge is our current state is often inspired by our ideal state. That makes sense. Right. But then our measurement always happens between where we are and where we are ideal. • And so that's the gap. And we live in the gap. It's very negative because it's like saying the horizon is my goal. • • I can continue to chase it, but I never get there. So I'm always in a state of failure. • • • • What the author says is that we have the same component over here with the gain. But we always measure backwards • • measure from where we started, not from where we're going, because then I live in the gain, which is much more positive and uplifting and supportive, as opposed to living in a constant state of failure. • • And that's impactful for us as individuals and also in organizations. Because if we're always saying, yes, we're doing well, but • • • we haven't reached our goal yet, but we still got to do this, but we still got to do that. And then we wonder why people • get, um, depressed.

So we hear a lot about dopamine, and typically it gets a bad rap because they associate it with social media and that, hey, if you're scrolling through social media, you're just doing it to get the dopamine, blah, blah, blah. But there's something very positive about dopamine because it also has a facet of helping us be motivated. Right. And what you were just saying there, • • I think is key, because if we're always • out on to use the horizon analogy, which is great, it's the horizon. It's very difficult to celebrate and be motivated within the journey and the winds that you get as you're moving toward that right. And that's what kind of made me think about that. • • Um, • • so • want to pivot as we get to the close here and we could go on. We could have a two hour podcast, Jeff, I think. But, um, • • • um, • • • talk a little bit about the relentless. • • Is it Relentless Leadership Academy. • • • • • • • •

What's that all about? Um, • • as I said, I've, um, been doing this for about a year and a half, two years now with companies. And then I figured that's great, but there's a limited capacity right there. I can't do this with enough people to get the word out there. So what I did is I created I guess you call it a product. So • • I, um, took all 17 modules, did, um, videos for all of them all the contents there and it's packaged so that an individual can just go out and access it on their own and go through it at their own pace.

Self directed type deal.

And then I've also talked to companies who may buy • • • multiple licenses for their folks and then somebody there will facilitate it like their leader will facilitate it, but it makes it accessible to everybody. Like anybody you can go at your own pace • • • • • if you want to blow through it, then you can blow through it if you go back and you can go back and revisit it those kinds of things • • • the delivery method is just more, uh, or less an individual class I guess you could call it just content you can access on your own.

Okay. All right. And we'll have information on that and show notes as well. So • • Perry's contact information will be there if you want to learn more about Relentless leadership or some of the other cool things that he's into • and certainly, um, Perry, it, um, was two years ago, I think you were on the show because I got other things I, um, got brewing in my head as we were talking here that I want to have your input on and your, uh, thoughts • • time is not on our side. So with that thank you for being with us.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you very much.

We really appreciate it. And audience, we do appreciate your time and that you're tuning in and we look forward to the next take care.

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