Creating resilience in your clients and protecting it in yourself with Martina Witter

Today I'm talking to Martina Witter, founder of Rapha Therapy and Training Services, and the host of the Rivers to Resilience podcast.It's wonderful to have her on the show as I've been following her on Instagram for a while.

Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of Psychology

Links for Martina:

LinkedIn:

Martina 'Motivator' Witter

Rapha Therapy & Training Services

Instagram: @rapha_therapy_service

Twitter: @mrobertaw

Facebook: Rapha Therapy Service

Website: raphatherapyservices.com

Podcast: Rivers to Resilience

Book: Resilience in the Workplace:From Surviving to thriving in the workplace, in business and as an entrepreneur

Other Links:

The Business of Psychology: Episode 106: A model for truly integrative therapy: SIP with Dr Melanie Lee and Bridger Falkenstein

The highlights

• I welcome Martina and she tells us who she is and who she helps 00:00
• Martina explains what resilience means for her, and tells us about her seven rivers model 00:58
• Martina talks about what sparked her passion for resilience work 17:30
• Martina tells us where we can find her Rivers to Resilience podcast 23:27
• Martina talks about what she does to protect her own resilience 24:03
• I ask Martina about the different projects that she’s bringing this knowledge to 32:20
• Martina tells us where we can find her and her book 38:25

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SPEAKERS

Martina Witter, Rosie Gilderthorp

Hello and welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. Today I'm talking to Martina Witter, founder of Rapha Therapy and Training Services, and the host of the Rivers to Resilience podcast. Welcome, Martina.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

So it's wonderful to have you on the show and I've been following you on Instagram for a while. But for everybody that isn't already following you, can you let us know who you are and who you help?

Yes. So as Dr Rosie's already shared, I'm Martina Witter and I do many things. I've got many hats. One of them being I'm a cognitive behavioural psychotherapist, so I work with children and adults across the lifespan, who are struggling with stress, anxiety, low mood, trauma, and I also deliver training around health and wellbeing to corporate organisations, and I'm a podcast host and also, I'm an author of the book Resilience in the Workplace.

And I know that this concept of resilience is really at the core of everything that you do, and it's at the core of your podcast as well. But it can be a tricky concept, can't it? I've had it go down pretty badly in some workplace training that I've done. So can you unpack for us a little bit, what does resilience mean to you?

Yes, yeah. So resilience, I love to use metaphors when I think about concepts. So I like to think about resilience as being a muscle, so it's something that we can grow, and something that we can develop. But we've got to be intentional about that. And it's about finding advantage in adversity, we're all guaranteed to face some type of challenges in life. I'm just thinking about more recently, the pandemic, and we've all, I'm sure we've all responded in different ways to that adversity, so it's thinking about what are the resources that you've got internally and externally and how can you leverage them to successfully navigate through challenges, and to grow essentially. When I think of resilience, it's about growth, so when I go to the gym, or when, you know, if we're trying to tone our muscles, that journey and process can be, it can be difficult, it can be arduous, but you've got to be, you've got to be focused and remain goal orientated, essentially focus on what that long term goal is. And with resilience, it is about building your tenacity when you're facing challenging situations. And we can all do it, we can all build our resilience if we want to. But we've also got to count the cost as well.

I really like that idea, because it puts me in mind of kind of moving forward through the difficult stuff, rather than denying that the difficult stuff is there. And I think when, when it becomes a bit toxic sometimes in you know, training and consultancy that I've done, is when people think, Oh, well, I must not be resilient if I show that I'm upset by something. Or if I ever say no, that was something that came out recently in the session, that resilience meant to some people that they must always say yes to everything that the boss asked them to do. And I thought, oh, goodness, understatement! That is not sounding very resilient today. And so I really like that metaphor, that's a really nice way of explaining it. Can you say a bit about the seven rivers model that you use?

Yeah, so the seven rivers to resilience model, it's a holistic model, so it looks at how and how an individual can build their resilience. So the first river is emotional awareness, self awareness, and regulation, and that is the foundation of it initially. Because if we are to build our resilience, we've got to locate ourselves and understand how resilient we are. So as a therapist, we always use, you know, a lot of rating. So I always ask people to think about their resilience and to rate it, to quantify it so you can locate yourself and then you know how you can build upon your resources. And also, if we don't know the areas that we're struggling in, or where we're not as resilient, how can we, how can we build upon that. So that's the first thing, self awareness and regulation. And then also the second stage is looking at, or second river should I say, is cognitive training, so looking at mindset training, essentially, which can help with building resilience because when someone is stressed or overwhelmed, it has an impact upon you psychologically, mentally, and if you're not aware of that you're not able to to address your mindset or your thoughts or your cognitions. The third river is stress management. Stress burnouts in the workplace is on the rise, so it's critical that we've got tools in managing stress, and resilience is a protective factor against stress, anxiety and depression. So that's why it is important to, to build those strategies. And then the fourth river is looking at physical health, fitness and exercise, looking at the physiological aspects of building resilience. And then the next river is looking at social connectedness and spirituality. So yeah, connecting with people looking at your network, looking at your support system, and then spirituality, if that's something that resonates with an individual if spirituality is important to someone, then being able to leverage that to build their resilience. And on the final two rivers are looking at developing and building a growth mindset, and then looking at how someone can use self affirmations to build their resilience. But it's about tailoring the resilience building process for the individual. And that's why it's holistic, and then focusing on those areas that are going to work for the individual. If you're not interested in exercise, or going to the gym, well, don't do it. I was talking about that on my podcast recently with a guest. If you're more into walking, well do that, or maybe just dancing, it's about doing what works for you and doing more of that rather than comparing yourself to others and how resilient they might be, so if that's detrimental to someone's resilience, it's counterproductive, essentially.

Yeah, so I suppose it's a model which takes into account individual differences and individual circumstances, because I'm guessing that there will be, you know, some people who, when they come to you, don't feel empowered to work on a particular area yet. Maybe there's things going on outside of their control, which make that really challenging for them, and it will continue to do so. But perhaps when you've done some work on some other areas, then some creative part of their brain might kick in, which shows them that there is some action that they could take. I'm thinking of, you know, I work with a lot of parents, who would be like, well, I can't do any exercise, I can't do any of that, and they would just shut that down. But then actually, when you know, we've got a bit of trust, maybe they've worked on some other stuff, then they can see oh actually, you know, I could, you know, put the baby in the sling, walk a little bit further on the school run than I absolutely have to. You know that there might be ways around it that aren't obvious at first.

Yeah. And I love that you highlighted that about the individual differences. And that's why with this model, we included spirituality, because for me, I'm a spiritual person and I think when I consider, like doing my training in cognitive behaviour therapy, and even when I did my undergrad in psychology, spirituality wasn't something that was addressed, but a lot of people are spiritual and I feel like how can you ignore that? Because that is someone's someone's strength. And it's about leveraging that. And it makes me think of when I lost my mum at an early age, and I know for me, spirituality was really important and that community that I had around me really helped me to navigate through that, and that's why it's there. With mindfulness as well, and mindfulness practices, that's all part of spirituality, I think, in these, the current culture, it's spoken about a lot more and it needs to be integrated within, I think it's important for it to be integrated and to be acknowledged within psychological therapies, otherwise it can actually exclude individuals from accessing therapy.

I think that's a really good point. I think, definitely one of the criticisms that you can make of CBT in the way that we were trained in it. I mean, I will put my hands up and say Salomon's, where I trained as a psychologist, isn't the most CBT heavy course, so I always feel a little bit ignorant when I'm talking about straight CBT. I do a lot of third wave.

Me too, I have lots of third wave over here as well.

But I do, I did always feel that there was an assumption that spirituality just wasn't part of people's psychological health in the UK perhaps, in the way that it obviously is for a great many people. And I think you're right, it can be a great source of strength for people but also, if there's something compromising somebody's ability to express their spirituality, then it can be deeply painful. So if they're part of a community that, you know, maybe part of their lifestyle doesn't fit anymore or, you know, that conflict, that can be massive that people and to not ask about it, to not have it as part of your formulation of what might be going on for somebody just seems absolutely bonkers to me.

Yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree with you. And it's, it's great just to even be having this discussion because historically, when I was working in the NHS, I think we probably asked about it, but it wasn't something that you would really follow up on, and so from my perspective, that wouldn't really encourage an individual to share about it, and that's going to affect the the therapy and, and the treatment outcomes. But as I've developed as a therapist and as a professional, and done my own research as well, I ensure that I integrate it into, into therapy, as and when needed. And essentially, you know, it's important to be guided by the client and to include that within the formulation, and to continue to kind of update it accordingly.

I think it's really powerful that you've used your own personal experience to inform the model. And, you know, I often think that we do our best work when we allow that to happen. I think often when therapy can seem a little bit kind of out of the box and less effective is often when people are restraining themselves and not allowing themselves to reflect on what would I need to be asked about if I was in the other chair? And so it sounds really powerful that you've taken that perspective from the beginning of your creation of this model.

And I feel liberated when I look at it, I just, yeah, I'm pleased with the final model and the fact that I think for so... just for looking at it visually, I believe that people will feel that they're able to identify with it. And then that could also encourage them to seek a bit of support. And I have had people, you know, clients who have reached out to me for particular, for a particular reason, because they know that I'm a kind of spiritual or religious person. So I think it's about leveraging our difference, essentially. And that attracts your tribe or your ideal client doesn't it?

Yeah, I feel that's really important. And we can be really concerned about sharing ourselves. And I do understand that, and I know that there are some modalities of therapy where that is really integral to the work. But for the type of therapy that I practice, it's not, and if I can share some personal experience which is going to help people see that they're not alone, then I really want to do that. Obviously always in a thoughtful way and a boundary way, but I think it's really important and this is a really great example of that, where people feel able to talk to you about their spirituality, because you haven't been afraid to talk about it.

Yeah, yeah. And it's about giving them permission, isn't it? To explore those areas, normalising some of their experiences, as well, and just creating that safe space, because essentially, as a therapist or psychologist, forget about the therapy, or the treatment, or the research, initially you just need to connect on a human level. There needs to be that authenticity in order for you to have a collaborative process or approach to therapy, then you can start using the strategies, but a lot of the research shows that actually, it's that therapeutic relationship and alliance, which determines the outcomes. And I've noticed that with some clients that I've worked with, I was like oh, so you know, so what's been most helpful? They've not said what I've expected them to say, so that's really insightful for me as a therapist, and that's why I continually focus on my personal development and focus on trying to give a bit more of myself within the therapeutic process, obviously, adhering to professional boundaries. But that really helps to yeah, helps the client to yeah, just to engage. I was even doing that stay with a young person who was struggling with motivation. I said, well, we all do, it's Monday, do you think I really want to go to work? Sometimes you just stop to... it's not about whether you want to do it or not, you've just got to make that decision, and be decisive because if we lived by our emotions, what would this world be like?

Such a good point. And I think it's really interesting because a couple of weeks ago I had Melanie Lee and Bridger Falkenstein on the podcast talking about somatic integration processing. And that is a, it's an integrative therapy model which basically brings in exactly what you're talking about, it gives you permission to spend time on the relational stuff. And we were all super enthusiastic about that because as a trainee, I remember exactly like you were talking about, being like, ah, but the strategies, I need to do strategies! And now, you know, after, you know, quite a while of delivering therapy, and being in those relationships with people, you can just see can't you that, oh, it's the quality of the relationship between us that made the difference there. It's not necessarily about which tool I chose to use today. But I think we all feel a bit guilty about that, and I just love models which give us permission to do it.

Yes, yeah. And I think it just highlights that it's important that in, in therapy, or you know, as a psychologist, you've got to be mindful of who you're working with. And it's important to take that individualised approach and not try and shove someone in a box, or to cause, y'know, not trying to lead them to kind of fitting into this narrow model, because a lot of the models that they... they're not based upon people who have got comorbidity, it's usually one presentation of... never that... I... yeah, that's very rare.

Yeah, I mean, when have you ever seen it? I can't think of a time or when I have, when I've then got to the end of session one I've been like, no, much more going on here. Because people are always complicated, aren't they? And so I think you know, what's really nice about this approach is, you've got all of that kind of flexibility to jump around with people talk about different things and get the whole picture rather than following a linear pathway, which is what often we're encouraged to do in training, it doesn't make sense. Whereas these kind of seven rivers all kind of flowing into one person, that makes a lot more sense to me, you know, as a human being. So what really sparked your passion for resilience work, because you've done so much in this field?

Yeah. So I would say a lot of it is based upon my life experience, essentially, and, unfortunately, losing my mum at such an early age when I was in my final year of university. And I would say probably the past 10 years, I was just kind of reflecting on how I got through it, essentially. And I say, got through it unscathed, but obviously, losing someone, a loved one at an early age does have a... yeah, it will have a significant impact on you. But somehow I managed to, you know, finish my degree, I did well, and I was able to, to use that experience to, I found advantage and in adversity, essentially, and my mum was someone who was very... she had high standards. And she wanted us all to, you know, I've got three other siblings, she wanted us to all succeed. So although losing my mum in the final year of my degree was devastating, it was, it was my mum and that memory that actually motivated me, because my mom, she didn't have a degree, so I felt like what I was doing, I was fulfilling her unfulfilled dreams, essentially. So that's what drives a lot of what I'm doing. And I would say all of my values, and a lot of my yeah, my personality, a lot of it, I'm quite similar to my mum, but unfortunately, she didn't have certain opportunities. So that's what drives me a lot. And I would say that she, my mum, she personified resilience. So being... growing up, I grew up in a single-parent household, it's my mum, she had about three jobs, she was like a super woman, she's managed to send all of us to private school, I don't know how she did it. So that was my... that's my upbringing. So all I know is resilience. There's no other option but to be resilient, and that's what's allowed me to, to flourish as an individual. So whatever adversity I face, I know that I will get through it. Because I've got that resilient mindset, I'm very optimistic, I'm a glass half full and I've got that growth mindset. But I think I've had to, it's been nurtured throughout all of my life.

So it was almost trying to reverse engineer that and think, okay, so I had this upbringing, which almost gave me this mindset. Obviously, a lot of people that we see, they haven't had that particular advantage. And so trying to unpack, you know, how can we foster that in people who might not have, you know, had experiences that have helped them in that way.

I wouldn't have wanted a lot of those experiences though if I'm being honest! But yeah, it has helped me to build my resilience. But I think in terms of how we can help others it's about if you're not struggling now, you're not facing new challenges, which is totally fine. Thinking about learning a new skill, so something that might be challenging, which will require resilience, and then you can build those resilience muscles, and then when you're in a challenging situation, for example, maybe feeling stressed at work, you're able to apply those skills, and you've already got that confidence and that memory knowing that actually, you know, I was learning a new skill, initially it was quite tough, but actually you were able to kind of navigate and grow through that, then it's about applying it to, to other situations and being able to draw upon all of those experiences. And that's what I've done in my, yeah, in my life. So I always think for me, well, if I've, unfortunately lost my mum, nothing else is going to compare to that. So come on, girl, you can get through this. Yeah.

Yeah, I can see that. And I guess there's something there about being able to recognise that it might not feel like it, but you will find an advantage in this adversity. And I was thinking, you know, just what you said that you wouldn't have chosen any of those experiences that you've had, but at what point did you start to recognise the advantage? Was it, you know, as an adult, when you were kind of coming to this work? Or did you become aware of it before then?

I was probably aware of it before then but I probably didn't give it too much attention. But I would say it's probably the last, maybe the last 10 years. And as I've been more focused on resilience and building it, and also helping others as well, to build their resilience muscles as well, it caused me to reflect upon why am I so resilient? And also I've, you know, my siblings were resilient to varying degrees, so I've also compared myself to that. And also there's, our personality has an impact on resilience and genetics, there's a combination of factors that contribute towards resilience. So I think for me, some of it's probably environmental, I'll probably say a large part of it is, but also I am fortunate that my personality type, because I'm just very optimistic, even if I hadn't have gone through these challenges, that's just me. I'm just like, yeah, a bit of an extrovert, nothing's gonna stop me. I just, I'm just focused on where I'm going, nothing's gonna stop me, and whatever it takes, I will achieve and accomplish it. That growth mindset. Yeah.

Yeah. It's really interesting, and I think, a lot of people will probably listen to this and want to explore that model a bit further, so just to mention your podcast here quickly, because I think if you're interested in this model, that's probably the best place to start, isn't it? So that's the Rivers to Resilience podcast. And where can people find that? Is it everywhere?

So it's on all platforms, all platforms, Spotify, Google podcast. Yeah, all of them. Just type it in Google, you'll find it.

I just wanted to get a plug in there because I figured people would definitely be listened to this and wanting to follow up with the model. So don't leave this episode guys, stick with us, I just wanted you to know that you can follow up and find out more about it over there. But I wanted to ask you as well, like, is there anything that you particularly need to do now working as a therapist to protect your own resilience? Because, you know, I think there are times and there are cases that we all deal with which it can really test your resilience to the limit sometimes. So is there anything particular you do to look after that?

Yeah, I would say for me, I always reflect that's just who I am. But I think probably it's to do with being a therapist, and I know it probably annoys some people, loved ones, because I'm reflecting literally... and I'm a bit of a processor, I've got to process everything.

Don't worry, you're in safe company, here, we are all about that.

Yeah. So that, that helps me to build my resilience muscles, it helps me with my decision making, and helps to ensure that I'm making the right decisions that are gonna go to build my resilience. I'm always aware of my mindset and why I might be feeling a bit stressed or worried or whatever, whatever it might be, so it's that self awareness, essentially. And physical health is important to me, so I go to the gym three times a week, that's, for me that is critical. And I literally, yesterday when the gym, I literally dragged myself, I was so tired but you know, you just got to discipline yourself and go, and, you know, it's Monday now, and I feel very refreshed and invigorated because I know, I've, yeah, I was at the gym, I was working out the body, because that mind body connection is very powerful, so it's important to look after it, and I do some long working days so I do go to sometimes to the gym in the middle of the day, as well and that just helps me to get through the day, because it can be quite intense working in private practice. But just working as a therapist, we've got to look after ourselves, self care is critical. There's no point in helping all of our clients when we're not actually looking after ourselves. So I'm very much a believer in, you know, we've got to practise what we preach and taking a holistic approach to that, I was just sharing that with one of my clients this morning. And yeah, they're some of the things that I do. And then also, because I'm a Christian, spirituality, that's really important to me. So praying, meditating, all of that helps with my overall well being and some of these things that I do, I would say, it's, it's just become part of my daily routine, daily and weekly routine. So I don't necessarily think about it so much. It's just become automatic now.

Literally knowing that those building blocks are always there and they're part of your routine that are not, they're not things that you would compromise.

Yes, definitely not. And I know that if I've not been to the gym, if I've missed a day because of my schedule's changed, I know that I've got to fit it in. Like I went to the gym on Sunday, I usually go on Saturday, but I couldn't go, but I knew I had to get it in and I had to end the week on a high so I'm ready and prepared for whatever the week's going to throw at me.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think it is that kind of lack of... what's the word? It's almost... no, it's not what I mean. I mean, you're being flexible about it, because you're allowing yourself to change your schedule, but you're not, you're not willing to compromise on you. And I think when, y'know because I speak to loads of psychologists and therapists, for the podcast and also as part of the Psychology Business School membership, and often when people are really in a state of burnout that's, the person that they will screw over is them. So it'll be oh no, I'll take an extra zoom call rather than going to the gym. And they never catch up with that. It's not about okay, I'll reallocate it flexibly, it's, I'll take it off the schedule. And I think as soon as we start doing that, not just with the physical health, with with all of it, whether it's praying, meditation, whether it's catching up with loved ones or friends, you know, those are the things we tend to take off the table when we're struggling for space, when actually, we're important, aren't we? We're half of the therapeutic relationship.

We are, and it's very demanding being a therapist or psychologist emotionally. And I think sometimes we underestimate the impact that it has on us. And we've got to think about well, who is looking after us? What is our outlook? And it's, I would say, it's just a, it's a decision that you've got to make and be committed to. And it comes back to that self awareness, understanding what's preventing you from actually prioritising your needs, and you know, having an extra zoom call, is it really, really worth it? If it's going to compromise your overall health and well being, it's all about balance, essentially, isn't it? And I would say aligning with your values, and that's something that I've been prioritising, probably like the past couple of years. And, you know, I do draw upon some of the ACT approaches to therapy as well, you know, committed action and aligning with your values. And I know for me, working out, and it's not just the act of working out for me, it's actually going to the gym. I'm all into experiences. Y'know, it's got all the spa facilities, all of that, and being in that environment helps to build my resilience and well being and increases my kind of self love because I'm telling myself, but I'm worth it and that is why I am here and I need it to function. So I would say that for everyone, listen, that it's important to align with your values we're helping our clients too, but what about us? What's important to us?

Yeah, no, I think that's so important. I mean, just one example I can think of, which is so straightforward, but one thing that I am really bad at is making time to have lunch in the day, I would never miss breakfast. I never miss tea. And I miss lunch all the time if I'm not conscious about it. And if I do that a few days in a row, I start to feel really sad.

Ah, right. That's interesting.

Yes. And I reflected on this, and I thought, well, that is because you're basically saying you don't care about yourself as much as you care about everyone else. You would never not feed your children at lunch time, but you're not feeding you, and what does your inner child make of that? And so now, I force myself to, you know, make something for myself. And I noticed a really big difference. But again, it's that self awareness piece, isn't it? It'd be so easy to do that and almost not notice. But if we're taking that first step and reflecting, then you catch yourself, and you can put stuff in place to protect your resilience a bit better. Yeah, so I think that's really interesting.

And I love what you said, that's really insightful for me.

Are you thinking about it now?

I am! I mean, I always have my... maybe I don't have enough time, but I can't function without lunch essentially, I get headaches. So yeah. But it's just interesting, we're so, we're all unique and individual aren't we, yeah.

And I think it, yeah, it depends on kind of how your brain works and also just what's important to you. I mean, there are lots of people that wouldn't mean the same thing for, but for me, that wasn't making my inner child sad. So I think yeah, it is always about being in touch with that part of you, isn't it? So I guess, I was just curious about the way that you work now. Because I kind of know a bit from following you what you're up to, but what are the different projects that you're bringing this knowledge to at the moment?

Yeah, so there's the, I guess there's three arms to the business, three projects. So there's the therapy side, cognitive behaviour therapy as a main approach, but also, drawing upon third wave therapy has taken an integrative approach. So working with children and young people, children, young people and adults, who was struggling with a range of difficulties. And there's also the coaching side of the business, which is kind of a newer arm of the business, and that's focused on helping individuals with kind of mindset coaching, performance coaching as well. And then also, there's resilience coaching, which is also linked with an offshoot of the rivers to resilience model. So providing that in organisations in the corporate space, and then that ties in with the training arm of the business, which is newer, that we've been delivering training for a couple of years now, and I love it, I love that. For me, it's so rewarding, having an impact on large groups of individuals, who may not necessarily, who may not even think about therapy, or may not even be considering their well being, so that's the other arm of the business. And other projects that we'll be looking at in the future is running lunchtime wellbeing sessions. So that's quite exciting. Just in the process of recruiting, well recruiting - we've already got them, we've got a... we've got a well being assistant who is a psychology graduate. So they will literally be starting in the next week or two, so that's really exciting. And that role and that additional support will just allow us to expand further. And then also, I have done some television work. It's not been released yet, but I've done television work, so watch out, it'll be plastered all over my socials actually when it's, yeah, when I can share about it, but that's also something that I'm doing. And I've always been interested in doing TV work, the media and more recently, I would say it's been a passion of mine because I think during in the midst of COVID and with everything that happened with George Floyd, it highlighted to me as a therapist that I need to probably be more visible and vocal. So in any profession, I think it's important that individuals regardless of your background, you've got access to role models, and there's not a lot of diversity in psychotherapy or psychology. So I feel that I need to kind of lift my head above the parapet and let people know that I'm here, if you want to be a therapist you can. Or if you might want to consider therapy, you may think that it's not diverse or there's not therapists from diverse backgrounds, Black, Asian, Chinese, whatever background, but actually they do exist. So that's also another reason why I've been open to it. But I also, I'm an extrovert, so I don't mind talking. I'm not afraid of the cameras. Yeah.

I think it's a really happy combination because to be a, you know, a black therapist out there, is sticking your head up and saying, look, I'm here, you've got to be really resilient.

You do, you do. And I would say it's probably only because I'm in private practice that I'm more confident in doing it. Because in the NHS, yeah, I wouldn't have felt comfortable or confident at all. But it's probably more recent, that I've realised that actually, I'm bringing something slightly different. I don't think I realised it before, I was probably trying to suppress it, well I was, let me be honest, I was just trying to suppress it and fit in. But actually, I wasn't made to fit in, I was made to stand out. So I'm here to stand out and just be my authentic self as a therapist, because my clients, regardless of their background, I work with everyone from all backgrounds, but regardless of their background, they don't get the best from the service when I'm just myself, rather than trying to be who I think people want me to be.

I think that's so powerful. And it does shine through with everything that you put out there, I was actually showing your Instagram account to some of my Psychology Business School members the other day, there's a really nice example of how values and authenticity can shine through and it doesn't.... it's not necessarily always about spending a million hours in Canva making something super polished. Sometimes it's about showing your face, showing your passion, that's something that you do so well, I think that it's going to be powerful for a lot of people. And I'm really glad that you're doing TV work, you're absolutely made for it, you're gonna be brilliant!

Oh, thank you, thank you. It's a journey of vulnerability. It's not been easy, but I just thought, you've got to do it, you've got to do it. But I think for me, it's as I built my resilience muscles and as I transitioned through my own challenges, going through a divorce and many other stuff, and now that I'm on the other side, and I feel that, you know, I had a bit of counselling, and I feel whole and that's the past. So I'm able to share those experiences because the reality is that's made me who I am. So I can't ignore it. And a lot of, sometimes people just need to, to know that and feel heard. So I just feel like well, you know, what have you got to lose?

Yeah, I mean, what a good note to end on. I feel there are so many people who will feel inspired by what you've talked about here. And I hope some of those people might feel able to be a bit more visible themselves, or maybe foster that, start working on that resilience now so that they can do some of those things, which their values are telling them they really want to do, but there maybe some other aspects holding them back. So I suspect a lot of people are going to want to learn more from you and connect with you after this. Where's the best places for them to find you?

Yeah, we're on all social media platforms. We're on LinkedIn, It's Martina Motivator Witter, or the business is on there, Rapha Training and Therapy Services. Instagram, Twitter, where else? Facebook, everywhere. I think Instagram you probably, you get a feel of who I am, that's the authentic me! I would never post some of that stuff on LinkedIn. But yeah, the authentic Martina is on Instagram.

Yeah, check it out. It's a really good example, yeah, one of my favourite accounts to follow at the moment. So do find Martina on Instagram, I'll put the link in the show notes. But also you have got a book which I think a lot of people will be interested in?

Oh yes, how can I forget? Yes.

Plug your book.

Yes, Resilience in the Workplace. So it's focusing on how you can shift from surviving to thriving in the workplace, in business and as an entrepreneur. That's available on Amazon, so feel free to check it out. And have a listen to our podcast if you want to learn how to build your resilience.

Brilliant. And I think that'll be really useful for so many of us. So thank you so much for joining us today, Martina, I really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you. It's been such a pleasure. It's been such an enjoyable experience.