Professor Amos Guiora, a legal expert with a rich background in the Israeli Defense Forces, joins Moe Davis for a riveting discussion that delves deep into the complexities surrounding Israel's current political and social climate, particularly after the harrowing events of October 7, 2023. They dive into Guiora's personal experiences and the stark contrast of life in Israel before and after the attack, emphasizing the psychological and physical toll on everyday citizens. Guiora reflects on the harsh realities faced by those living in conflict zones, highlighting how the day-to-day existence for many has transformed into a precarious balance of normalcy and fear. The conversation further unpacks the enablers of conflict and authoritarianism, drawing parallels to contemporary issues in the U.S. political landscape, ultimately questioning the fragility of democracy when subjected to internal and external pressures. Listeners are treated to a blend of informed analysis and personal anecdotes, making this episode a compelling exploration of resilience amid chaos.

Show notes:

- Guest bio: Professor Amos Guiora is a noted scholar and legal expert at the University of Utah School of Law, with extensive experience working within the Israeli Defense Forces, where he served as a legal adviser in the Gaza Strip.

- Utah Law School: [Link to the University of Utah School of Law website]

During a riveting exchange with host Moe Davis, Professor Amos Guiora sheds light on the profound shifts in Israeli life following the traumatic events of October 7, 2023. Having served as a legal advisor in the Israeli Defense Forces, Guiora brings a unique perspective to the discussion, intertwining personal anecdotes from his family’s history as Holocaust survivors with the current socio-political climate in Israel. The conversation navigates the complex landscape of daily life in Israel, where citizens grapple with the juxtaposition of ordinary routines against a backdrop of perpetual conflict and existential threat.

Guiora’s narrative is punctuated by his reflections on resilience and community, as he recounts how Israelis strive to maintain their cultural and familial bonds amid the chaos. He illustrates the psychological toll of living under constant threat, revealing the deep scars left by violence and the societal implications of such trauma. This episode delves into the challenges of balancing national security with humanitarian considerations, as Guiora critiques the Israeli government’s responses and the broader international implications of ongoing conflicts in the region.

Moreover, Guiora’s insights extend into the realm of political discourse, where he highlights the dangers of political polarization and the role of media as an enabler in this complex narrative. He calls for critical engagement with the issues at hand, urging listeners to recognize the humanity on all sides of the conflict. As the episode draws to a close, Guiora’s reflections resonate deeply, prompting a reevaluation of the narratives that shape our understanding of conflict and the urgent need for dialogue and empathy in a fractured world.

Takeaways:

• Professor Amos Guiora shares how daily life in Israel has drastically shifted post-October 7, emphasizing the psychological toll of constant threat.
• The conversation highlights the enablers of political regimes, drawing parallels between Israeli governance and American politics, especially in terms of accountability.
• Guiora discusses the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, stressing the distinction between Hamas and innocent civilians, while confronting the complexities of public perception.
• The podcast dives into the fragility of democracy, with Guiora arguing that the real threats often come from within, rather than external forces.
• Listeners get an intimate look at Guiora's personal history, including how his family's Holocaust story shapes his current perspectives on conflict and justice.
• The episode ends with insights into the role of media as an enabler in political narratives, questioning the responsibility of journalists in times of crisis.

Links referenced in this episode:

• AmericanMuckrakers.com

Welcome to MUCK YOU!. I'm Moe Davis, co host, along with David Wheeler. David's taking the day off and thank you for joining us.

Got a special guest today, a longtime friend of mine, Professor Amos Guiora, is joining us from out in Salt Lake City. Amos grew up in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which I suppose explains his devotion to the Michigan Wolverines. And we're such good friends.

Yet most of you know, if you know me, you know I'm a graduate of Appalachian State University. And many of you remember the greatest game in football history, and Amos and I have survived that.

But Amos is, like I said, a longtime friend of mine and a, a real scholar and statesman and someone that we wanted to have on to talk about some of the things that are, are going on in politics and particularly outside the US We've kind of been focused over the last couple of weeks on topics with within the U.S. but Amos is uniquely qualified.

He's an attorney, grew up, as I said, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and then spent 20 years in the Israeli Defense Forces where he served as an attorney and he was the legal adviser for the Gaza Strip. And the way we met is I was the acting commandant of the Air Force JAG School down in Montgomery, Alabama.

And at the same time, Amos was the commander of the Israeli, the Military Justice School, which is the counterpart of our JAG school. And he came for a visit and that was some 20 plus years ago, and we've been friends ever since. And Amos's parents were Holocaust survivors.

His grandparents were murdered at Auschwitz. As I said, he spent a career in the, in the idf. You know, I used to, you know, bitch about my commute when I was up in D.C.

because sometimes it took me, you know, two hours to get to work. Well, Amos and his family live in Israel, and Amos teaches at the law school at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City.

So he's got one hell of a commute. He's a prolific writer on the news quite a bit providing commentary.

He's got a new book coming out we'll talk about called Enablers across the Ages Normalizing the Unimaginable. And Amos, really appreciate you taking some time out to join us.

You know, first of all, it's always a pleasure to spend time with you. But I was chuckling when you referenced the disastrous Michigan game against Appalachian State.

And the fact that you and I have maintained our great friendship in spite of that is nothing but a miracle. But I knew you had. I said to myself, he's going to work it in there. Fine. Did it, we can now move on.

I couldn't let that one slide.

That was just, you know, for folks that live here in the Appalachian Mountains, you know, that's one of those things that's gonna, you know, it's gonna linger for a long time. But you're, can we move on?

All right, well, listen, you know, you certainly, you know, keep up with, with world events and, and politics here in the state and you're, you know, you're in Salt Lake City right now, but you're frequently back in, in Israel with your family. And I thought that provides a unique perspective that I think our, our audience would be interested in.

So let's start with, you know, in Israel, I think a lot of Americans are, are essentially clueless about Israel and what life is like there.

And it is as you reference, you know, the book that I've finished, it's the closest day in contemporary Israel to, to the Holocaust. And I think that's really important in terms of how we frame that Saturday and where are we now? 15, 16, 16 months later.

And then whenever there was another incoming from Iran, I think, think in October, I confess mo because for all of us Israelis the dates have run together so much. But you're right.

I spent time in a bomb shelter with my son in law, with my granddaughters, another time with a friend, my wife, daughter and one of the grandchildren. It's a reality. And when you ask about how life is for Israelis, I think it's going to depend on first of all where they live.

So we live outside Jerusalem and obviously, as I say, we have spent time in the bomb shelter. People who live in southern Israel on the Gaza border. I can't imagine what life is like after October 7th.

And then for people who live on the Northern border on Lebanon, for instance. We have family that have been evacuated. They are now living in their, I think, fourth residence in the past 14, 15 months.

And that obviously takes a toll every which way on Sunday. But on the other hand, on the other hand, I was in Tel Aviv in December or January, December or January. I don't remember which one. Sorry.

And there was. I finished a meeting and there was an air raid siren. And you run to the shelter and everybody's there. Those who know each other, know each other.

Those who don't know each other, don't know each other. And the. The air raid ends. The Iron Dome. And then you just go back to the street and you go on with life as if nothing.

And I think that's important for people to understand that we have. It depends on where you live. You have X seconds to run from where you are into the shelter or again, wherever you live. I think for.

Never say everybody, but for many of us, maybe I can only testify as to myself. When the air raid siren ends, you simply run. Yes, ends. And then you go on with your meetings.

And I think that that's essential because the last thing you want to do, again speaking only for myself, mo, is you never want to give the other side the sense that they are wearing you down, that they are preventing you from going about your normal daily life.

And perhaps that's difficult for people who've never had the privilege, quote, unquote, of being in an air raid shelter or during the Iron Dome type siren, that it ends and you go back to what, whatever you were doing, because I think otherwise you, you, you, quote, unquote, give in. And that again, speaking only for myself and for my family also, and absolutely refuse to go there.

And you go back to the street, you go back to your meeting, you go back to whatever you were doing, and life continues, because otherwise you fall down or go down that dark rabbit hole, which I, I think most of us absolutely refuse to make.

On October 7, you were in Israel.

And I confess, I have no idea. You know, I had no idea what the hell she was talking about because we were in Paris. What war? I said, what are you talking about?

She said that our daughter had just texted her that what had happened, happened. We turned on the BBC and indeed we saw, and I think like anybody and everybody else, we were flabbergasted.

Would be the polite word, horrified would be the more correct word. And then we obviously looked for a flight to leave Paris as quickly as possible. We obviously ended our vacation, wanted to come home immediately.

And I think it took, I think it took a while to understand the extent not only of the, of the IDF's the Israel Defense Forces utter and, and total failure, but I think more, more painfully the, the extent of the unmitigated, unimaginable harm to innocent Israelis, whether those who were killed in their homes in the, on the, the kibbutzim and the, and the, on the communities near the, the Gaza border, those who were taken hostage to Gaza and then anybody who could Watch this on YouTube to see what Hamas or Gazans Hamas and orgasms, which is also an interesting question. Were were doing to the hostages.

The, the, the rape of the women, the sexual assault of the women, the killing of the women, the rape and killing of the women. And you remember watching this and you're like you're, it can't be happening. And then you understand it is happening.

And then we were getting texts on the terrorists are moving their way towards Tel Aviv and all that is happening, you know, simultaneous took a few days for us to I think recognize if I think back, you know, there are two whatever 200 or so, right, 240 Israelis held hostage that the women were subjected to sexual violence on a level that is beyond unimaginable.

And we also now know because one of the male hostages who's been freed has, has made the decision and I applaud him that he too was sexually violated. And I applaud him for his courage. And we know about the women, the sexual violence against women.

And the more you read, the more you read and the more you read. And then started the call ups of Reserve Office of Reserve Soldiers. As you well know, the IDF is a standing army, is a small army.

We're reservist based and I think at the maximum the number was 300,000. If you do easy math, which I'm not good at. We're a population of 10 million.

Of the 10 million, 15% are Hasidic Orthodox Jews who don't serve in the military. 15% are Israeli Arabs. The majority of which overwhelming majority don't serve in the army. Down to 70%.

70% of 10 million is, what is it, 7,300,000 mo is. Was that 15 million Americans being called up to reserve duty for a very long extended period.

The economic impact on that huge people's businesses were closed, the social costs, I don't think we really fully appreciate the social causes yet.

And in the meantime, soldiers were being killed, soldiers were being wounded, and it was also clear that the government was not functioning whatsoever.

So much so I remember when I came back, we came back from Paris, I was asked to volunteer at a center in Jerusalem and I was tasked with raising money. Why was I raising money?

Because the government was non functioning and we were raising money from people worldwide, which in retrospect, I mean, I'm glad I did it. But beyond outrageous that the government was so nonfunctioning that we needed to raise money in order to buy soldiers basic equipment.

I mean, so it's an utter collapse of the government. And that's something that down the road we as Israelis will need to address.

How about day to day life for ordinary Israelis? Is it a marked change since October 7th?

It's going to depend on the day.

So today's Monday when hostages were released on Saturday, the three males who literally were emaciated, it was a shock in our face, or shock for us to see them. It literally brought back visions of the Holocaust, of Auschwitz. I think Saturday in Israel was a really bad day.

Today's Monday and Hamas is supposed to release more hostages on whatever it is this weekend. A couple hours ago they said they won't do it. Now it's unclear if they'll do it. And you literally are living from announcement to announcement.

On the other hand, to your question, people have a business to attend, people go to school, people have lives. There was just a, I'm a huge fan of the Jerusalem basketball team in the Israeli League.

There's, there was now a game in Jerusalem and thousands upon thousands of people go, Last week my son and my daughter in law took our grandson to a game because, you know, you want life to continue, you can't raise your arms and say, you know, in Yiddish, oy vey. And that's it. So life continues. People in Tel Aviv, you'll see restaurants filled, you know, coffee houses filled.

On the other hand, when there's a siren, everything changes.

And when we hear that soldiers, the way it works in Israel, I don't know how it works here in the States, Mo, but we're not told that a soldier is killed until his parents know. And so during the course of the day you're given the war, there are code words that are used on the radio.

And then you hear that X number of soldiers have been killed. And that takes us all back, you know, to where we were. And it's a stark reminder that we are still in it.

On the other hand, you know, you want to go to a coffee house or you want to go have spend time with your family, and there is that. I don't know if yin and yang is the good word, but one day here, one day there, and it can all turn on a dime.

For instance, when Hamas said that they won't release the hostages this coming weekend, the IDF went on immediate high alert. That's significant. We all have kids, right? We all have family. It's not like it's, I think, not to be flippant, Mo. It's not like living in Geneva.

How's that?

Just as an aside, you mentioned, mentioned being a fan of basketball here in Asheville. UNC Asheville had their starter player last year was Drew Pember, and Drew's playing over in Israel now for a professional team.

So the only question is, what team does he play for? Because that will depend. That will determine whether we can continue our conversation or not.

I'm going to. Butch. I'm going to butcher the name. It's Natanya. Is that.

No, that's okay. We can stay friends. Okay.

Okay. You know, one thing I, I've always appreciated about you is that you have a very balanced perspective.

It seems like, you know, on a lot of issues, people, you know, it's a very binary thing where there's right and wrong, you know, good and bad, virtue and evil. And it seems like with.

With, you know, Israel and, you know, what happened on, you know, October 7th, I think, you know, everyone was just stunned and shocked and saddened by, by what happened. And then over the months, I think folks have also been, you know, saddened and, and, you know, outraged over, you know, the, the suffering of. Of.

Of Palestinians who, you know, weren't part of Hamas. And it seems like too many people want to, you know, say you've got to choose one or the other. And it's, to me, more nuanced than that.

So I'm just curious in your perspective on how. How do you. How do you balance the two?

So I think we are all aware to varying degrees of what is happening in Gaza as a consequence of October 7th with respect to the actions of the IDF. I think anybody who turns on their TV or social media, you can see that. And obviously there's a delineation between Hamas and innocent Gazans.

Is this what they voted for or not? I don't know. But Hamas won the election. And I want to emphasize that that election was as democratic as democratic can be. Democratic.

To make October 7th happen requires a pretty significant infrastructure that goes well beyond the members of Hamas who crossed into Israel and killed the Israelis or those from Hamas who grabbed the Israeli hostages. And it's very interesting to ask, call it the center left in Israel. Are you aware of. And you get these conversations. They're difficult conversations.

Are you aware of what's happening in Gaza? Yes. Does it bother you what's happening in Gaza? Yes, but more important for me are the fate of the hostages.

Does it bother you that it doesn't really bother you?

And you get, you know, some people will say yes, but as long as they are keeping the hostages in tunnels, as long as they are holding men, women, and there are at least we know of two infants who have been held since October 7th. One of the questions in Israeli society is how will the public react if and when Hamas announces that these two infants were killed?

I have no idea the public will react to that. I know how the public reacted on Saturday when they saw the three mesated Israelis. So, sure, we're all aware of the graphics and soldiers.

We've come home from reserve duty and report, and there are soldiers, to their credit, who've been very, very critical of the IDF's actions. They think it's problematic, perhaps those who think that it violates the laws of war. On the other hand.

On the other hand, what will always be remembered is the. I don't know if I like this word, so you'll excuse me, the utter rampage, unhinged behavior on October 7th.

And that very much is for many of us, front and center.

But what's going to complicate the complication, if that weren't complicated enough, is I remind you that before October 7, after the Netanyahu government, after this government came into power, when they announced what's called the judicial reform, which is nothing more than the evisceration of the rule of law, it took us a couple of weeks to understand that this is actually threatening democracy.

And within a few weeks yet four to 500,000 Israelis every Saturday night demonstrating, that's 20 million Americans every Saturday night demonstrating.

Now we're back to demonstrating against that because we understand the government, in spite of what's going on in Gaza, wants to reinitiate the engagement with evisceration of the judicial reform. So, yes, what's happening in Gaza is problematic as hell. I mean the pictures are awful, the fact that innocents have been killed, awful.

But I'm going to give you another but X percentage of those innocents who were killed, all fault with Hamas for turning them into human shields. And for that, Hamas needs to be held responsible and accountable. In addition to that, I remind you that as Israelis, we are in a seven front war.

You know, the Houthis fire the missiles from Yemen. We have Jewish terrorism in the west bank, we have Palestinian terrorism in the West Bank. I'm not exactly sure what Syria is today.

I'm not sure Hezbollah to wear. We have Hamas and we also have Iran. So we're in a seven front war, small country, small army.

And were that not complicated enough, I remind you that our, our prime minister is on trial. Serious criminal offenses. He's on trial in Tel Aviv, in the district court, either in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.

He is going to make every effort not to work for the release of the remaining hostages because it's been made very clear to him by the extreme right wing members of his government, remember coalition government, parliamentary democracy, that if he goes forward and releases all the hostages, which, which implies a 100% ceasefire, they will leave his government. If his government collapses, he's no longer Prime Minister.

The trial will pick up from one day in terms of hearing him, he's the, he's the testifying his own behalf from one every two weeks to three, four times a week. He knows, he, Netanyahu knows as well as I do that the court will convict him.

And he also knows that if he's convicted, there's a fair chance that he'll go to jail. I mean these are serious criminal offenses.

And that's one of the reasons that he is, I think it's very clear in the last, not only days, weeks, he has no interest in seeing conclusion of the two or three stage hostage release ceasefire. That is a call that a serious problem is, is an all time understatement.

Yeah, I remember, you know, when, when they had the, the election in Gaza and being shocked at the outcome. But you know, I felt the same way in November. If we're here in America, we.

But don't forget, don't forget that Hamas replaced the Palestinian Authority in Gaza, which was corrupt. Palestinian Authority rules the West Bank. Palestinian Authority ruled Gaza until they were warding up.

And here's what's critical to your question with representatives of the paper, the west bank whose condition to participate in the conversations with a two fold conversation. Two fold condition. One, that there'd be nobody from Hamas participating and two, that Gaza not be on the table.

So when people ask me is there a chance for a two state solution, the, the first question is two state with whom? With us. Us Israelis only with the west bank or with Gaza and what will the west bank do without the Gaza Strip?

And as, as easy as it is to say, as tempting as to say two state, two state solution.

I well recall that one of the, one of the PA representatives who I spent a significant amount of time told me once, he said, leave us alone until we get our own house in order. And it's clear that that house is not in order. And therefore when I'm asked where's all this leading without.

We haven't even discussed President Trump's plan about the, what's it called, the Riviera in Gaza. Right. The Palestinian west bank versus West Bank, Gaza, Hamas, Palestinian Authority.

That's an issue that they are going to have to resolve that we certainly can't resolve for them.

You know, as you're describing, you know, Netanyahu having in fact, you have an article I think came out today on the Oxford Diplomatic.

It's coming out this week. I'll send you the link. Yes.

Yeah.

Where you talk about what you were just describing, where Netanyahu really has no interest in seeing this concluded because his personal is a personal stake in keeping the controversy going.

It reminds me of, of Trump and you know, we had the border security, the bipartisan border deal that you know is imminently going to be passed and then Trump intervened and stopped it because for him keeping the crisis going was to his advantage in solving the problem was would be detrimental to him. So it seemed like there are a lot of similarities between Trump and Netanyahu. I mean they both, they're close in age.

They're obviously, you know, Netanyahu was, was here over the weekend. They're obviously quite close.

You know, I don't know. I'm going to respectfully be careful on that one. I think that Trump is so transactional and Netanyahu is such a fanboy.

I don't know.

Do you have close relations under those circumstances? They're not friends like you and I are friends, right?

Yeah. Well, it seems like they're both had this like aura of corruption around 100%.

And you described in your article that you know, Netanyahu, you know, surrounded by sycophants and self serving loyalists, which sounds an awful lot like the criteria to get a government job now under, under Trump.

I think I, as I understand it, you know more than I do.

I read somewhere yesterday on Saturday that people who were interviewed for jobs by Trump were not asked will you be loyal to the Constitution United States of America but were asked will you be loyal to me? By the way, Netanyahu did this exact same thing when he was appointing head of the Mossad, our CIA. By all accounts undenied.

There were two last candidates, A and B. And he asked them are you loyal? Will you be loyal to me? And one said I'll be loyal to the state and the other said I will be loyal to you.

And you know who got the job.

Yeah, as I said, I think, you know, there, there a lot of parallels between the two of them. I'm curious what you think is going to happen. You know, like I said, they're both Netanyahu 75, Trump 78.

Obviously at some point they're, you know, they leave the stage. What do you see for Israel and the in the US when the two of them are out of the picture?

Well, first of all, I'm hoping that Netanyahu, because maybe the government will fall and there'll be election, there'll be new elections and it'll be out of office before our conversation ends. Right.

I think that the, as Israelis and I keep telling Israeli friends of mine, President Biden will be the last American president who has any true empathy understanding of the Holocaust. I think that's where you need to begin with that.

And you may think of President Biden what you want to think of him, but when he came to Israel two years ago and came to Yad Vashem, the Holocaust center in Jerusalem and was literally on his knee in front of a Holocaust survivor. That's not going to happen again. And I think Israelis are going to have to adjust to again. You certainly don't have to agree with me.

Did the Democratic Party that, for instance, I'm older than you, older than you, the Democratic Party that I grew up on which was empathetic, sensitive to Israel understanding of Israel. I'm not sure where the Democratic Party goes moving forward and I think that's an issue.

I think also that again, I certainly don't mean to offend anybody. Netanyahu, when he was now in Washington refused to meet with the American Jewish community. Extraordinary.

He's willing to meet with evangelical leadership because he has some kind of a relationship with him.

But again, as I tell Israeli friends, no disrespect to your audience, I think we Israelis need to be careful with that because I'm not sure the depth of that relationship. I think that Republicans who are, they perceive themselves as pro Israel, a phrase, I have no idea what that means.

View us Israelis as the vanguard of counterterrorism.

And maybe there's an element of something, maybe you know better than I do, anti Muslim there, which I think is highly, highly, highly, highly, highly problematic. And I don't really know how deep that pro Israel is.

So when I listen to certain members of either of Trump's administration or other Republicans talk about Israel, they're talking about Netanyahu's Israel, which is not my Israel. Netanyahu's Israel is illiberal, right wing, borderline right wing, right wing with fascist members of the government. That's not my Israel.

And I tell my Israeli friends we need to be very, very, very careful of that. Kind of a bear hug which can have negative consequences.

In your article that's coming out, you, you said the greatest threat to Israel is not from without, it's from within.

And let me just quote a paragraph out of what your, your article, you said this is an uncomfortable issue for the government to tackle as the threat emanates from the extreme right wing who support, whether cabinet members or former cabinet ministers is essential for Netanyahu's survival. Their support is conditioned on the government's determinedly failing to resolve these dilemmas. What are you saying there?

Well, first of all, when you look at Jewish terrorism in the west bank, whether it's burning Palestinian homes, causing terrible damage to Palestinian property, a few years ago, they burned a Palestinian Palestinian baby. That's Jewish terrorism. This government winking a nod with respect to that, that is highly, highly problematic.

First of all, the crime, the crime should be prostituted. The crime is awful.

And in a previous article that was, if I call it correctly, mo published by the Hill, I used the word pogrom to define describe Jewish terrorism.

Trust me, not, not everybody was happy with me for all the obvious reasons, but I really believe that Jews who go into west bank communities and burn, that's takes me back to, you know, pogroms. Go watch Fiddler on the Roof and the government winking a nod.

More than that, I think, you know, that we in Israel have something called administrative detention, which I don't think has ever been adopted by the US Military. The US Government. The new defense minister was utterly and utterly unqualified for the job.

He's as qualified as, I have long hair and you know that I don't have hair. He made the decisions, announced that there will be no more administrative detentions of Jews. That's outrageous.

Administrative detention of Palestinians? Yes. No administrative detention of Jews. That's a double standard in the legal system that no system. No. No rule of law can allow itself.

That's problematic when I use the word illiberal or Jewish terrorism and the wink and the nod. It's exactly what I meant.

Yeah. You mentioned your article about the politicization of law enforcement and police, which also seems to be an issue here.

So I've been, as you know, I've been to. I don't know how many demonstrations. When you go to demonstrations, you get verbal assaulted, verbally assaulted by Netanyahu supporters.

But trust me, as I think I wrote there, trust me, I give as good as I get. Right. Being physically accosted by the police when there was no reason, no justification, that's different.

And you see, when we use the word police violence in Israel, it's not like in America. We don't have shootings, we don't have, you know, those terrible beatings. We don't have that.

But we absolutely have pretty physical, slash, I don't know, violent, unnecessarily physical arrests. I mean, I've gone toe to toe. My wife has gone toe to toe with cops. I've been physically, you know, grabbed.

I mean, grabbed by my lapel, my lapel lapels, and thrown 30, 40 yards. It's not fun. And the moment.

And I tell you, in this particular instance, we were demonstrating where we were allowed to be, demonstrating against the judicial reform, and we were where we were allowed to be. And then all of a sudden, the police officer called, the officer in charge closed that area. And I went up to him for no reason whatsoever.

And I went up to him and I said, you know, Mr. Officer, my name is, and I happen to be a lawyer. And I'm wondering, basis of what, did you just make the decision you made?

Yeah, I was very, very polite. I mean, I really. I was polite. And he said, I am the authority, in Hebrew. And I said to him, you know, Mr.

Officer, those are probably the scariest words that a member of law enforcement can say. I am the authority. And I said to him, I remind you, sir, respectfully, I'm a lawyer.

In response to which he indeed grabbed my lapels grabbed me by the lapels and chucked me. My kid, who's far stronger than I am, went up to him and said, you can't do that to my dad. He's, you know, he's older, blah, blah, blah.

And returned the police officer grabbed my kid and threw him further than he had thrown me. That's politicization of the police. Politicization of the police where they are protecting the government and not protecting me.

No democracy can allow itself that.

Yeah.

And it's unfortunately afraid that's, you know, what we're seeing more and more of here, which is ironic, you know, that, you know, the far right's the one that assaulted law enforcement on the, at the Capitol, but still there's so many in law enforcement that seem to side with the, with the far right. You know, it seems like there a lot of similarities between the US And Israel with this left, right divide.

And certainly here in the US Propaganda, you know, has played a big role, you know, in my estimation, in creating that divide and fomenting it for, you know, for whatever reason. Is that is propaganda, is that huge a big issue in Israel as well.

Netanyahu is the master of vile incitement, 100%. He's good at three things. He's a pathological liar and a good day. He's the master of incitement and he's the master of not making any decisions.

That's what he does. Well, on the other hand, he, like Trump, has a base that is stuck. It goes with him. You know, what's the expression? Hell or high water.

But Netanyahu and his ilk, as I think I wrote in the article, we call it in Hebrew, which translates into English, into the propaganda machine run by his wife and his, who's under going to be investigated by the police and his son, who left Israel under very suspicious circumstances, who lives in Miami. They have four people who. Social media, they are very, very, very good at it.

They have targeted freed hostages, they have targeted the families of hostages, they have targeted people like me. We are called regularly traitors. Right? That's the most common term is to. Is to call us traitors. But I'll give you an example.

A released woman hostage was standing with a sign near a highway when a cab driver got out of the car and physically accosted this woman who had been a hostage. The mother, she's a very dominant and very active mother of a hostage. Her name is Einav. Her son is Matan.

There are death threats against her and they speak of her in A way that you as Americans would never, ever understand how people can talk like that. And I also remind you and your audience, we in Israel, there is no political correctness, there's no Kumbaya, there's no sweeteners of society.

We are in an in your face culture in a way that makes, have no doubt makes Americans very, very, very uncomfortable. But the fact that the mother of a hostage gets death threats is beyond extraordinary.

And it was either today's Monday, so it was either yesterday Sunday or today Monday, that at the Knesset, in the Parliament, there was a real face to face, not, not a pleasant face to face between Smutrich, who's our Minister of Finance, who is an extreme right winger. He's mass, he's what we call in Israel, he's messianic, which some others might call religious, nationalist, fascist.

He and his hostage brother, I think, got into it. When I tell you got into it, I mean got into it. That's what incitement does. Listen, Mo. It's no fun. It's no fun to be called a traitor. I was in our.

We live in a little town outside Jerusalem and we have a shopping mall. And I was in the underground garage parking, and a guy rolled and I was wearing a shirt calling for the release of the hostages.

And he rolled down his window. And I won't tell you on the air what he said to me, but that's the, it's, it's unhinged, but that comes from somewhere.

That unrestrained hate is the result of Netanyahu's incitement.

Yeah, well, yeah, the same thing happens here. I, you know, I get called a traitor quite often.

I assume you were tagged a traitor in part because of your decision with respect to Guantanamo.

Yes, yeah. That, you know, I was a coddling terrorist because I was. Wouldn't condone torture.

And that makes you a traitor, apparently.

In the eyes of, of, of quite a few on the right that, you know, unless you Adopt their, you know, the, the ends justify the means and the rules don't apply, then you're, you're not a good American.

I mean, it's the same thing. You know, I, I served for 20 years in the IDF. I've been called traitor, obviously. Trust me, I've been called much worse than traitor.

Right, but my kids served, my wife served. And that still makes you a traitor. My wife was called once a Bolshevik.

And she went up to the guy and she said to him, really, really quick question for you. Can you tell me what a Bolshevik is? And he couldn't spell Bolshevik, but he, he knew enough to know that he had heard it somewhere.

And because she was demonstrating, she was a Bolshevik. But that's how incitement works.

Yeah, yeah, I see that a lot here. We're particularly on the right.

There are buzzwords that, like globalist or socialist that in 99% of them don't have a clue what it means, but they know it's something bad and so they throw it out there without, you know, any comprehension of what they're, they think they're saying.

I think what's interesting, the words like globalist, he doesn't know enough. But that's the code word for Soros. And there's a lot of anti Semitism in global. When they use the term globalist.

Now whether this guy knows that he's, that's anti Semitism or not is a different question, which is why I take you back to what I said earlier when I'm told about that the Republicans are all in for Israel. I'm saying. Wait, wait, slow down here. I suggest caution with that.

Yeah, your article, you talk about enable, enablers in your book. We'll talk about your book in a minute. But that's certainly the central point of your book.

But you know, enablers include the other branches of government, like here, the legislature and the judicial. The legislative and judicial branch are supposed to be a check and balance to, you know, to avoid an imperial presidency.

But you know, they appear to be totally subservient to, to Trump and then the fourth estate near. The news media seems to have been whipped into submission.

What do you do with, with, you know, what they're supposed to be the safeguards or now the enablers of, of what we're seeing.

So I began with the media and I, you may disagree with me, which is perfectly fine. What we would call the mainstream media.

Mainstream media, New York Times, Washington Post, they were enabling, protecting, enabling, protecting from the public. President Biden's true condition and when America saw the debate, well, maybe the public was shocked.

I'm not sure that the media was totally shocked because maybe they had seen this or they had not seen it because Biden wasn't interacting with the press. That's problematic. That's putting aside, if you ask me, his wife was, was Jill Biden, like Edith Wilson was, was an, was an enabler.

I think we need to be honest about that. That's problematic. What we see in Israel is there are, we have four, we have four TV stations, four news stations.

11, 12, 13, 14, 14 makes Fox News look like kindergarten child's. Fox News is child's play compared to R14.

The other 11, 12, 13 each have a reporter, or two of them have a reporter who 100% is the courier for Netanyahu. And that's very, very problematic when the media has become the spokesman for a Prime Minister, especially this Prime Minister.

There are a number of journalists on the other hand, who to their credit, are reporting the way reporting should be reported. But it is, I agree with you 100% beyond problematic when the media becomes an enabler, not the enabler, but an enabler. That's very problematic.

With respect to, in Israel, we don't, I mean, our Parliament, the Knesset, is largely in name only. They don't really play a role. But as you're right, as I wrote in the article, Netanyahu is surrounded by who he's surrounded by.

I ask friends here, I mean, here being the United States, I throw them names, I give them. Tell me, how do you respond to this person? Or in terms of how do you define this person? This person, this person.

And indeed there are people who I think would be tagged as Trump's enablers.

And I, you, you know better than I do, at some point, one assumes all, everything that we're discussing will come to, to the, to the front steps of the United States Supreme Court and we'll see how all that plays out.

But in the meantime, if you listen carefully and watch carefully, as I assume as many, many, many, many, many people are doing, there is clearly an element of enabling here. And some of, if you ask me, is raises serious questions about democracy, which is scary, by the way. That's, that is seriously.

To call it scary as hell is an all time understatement.

Well, I'm sure you've seen where, you know, to me, it's ironic, you know, the, the whole kind of premise of MAGA was that America first, that we need to look internally and quit, you know, get out of all these international engagements and, and focus on, you know, within our own borders. But now Trump wants to take over Canada, the Panama Canal, Greenland, and as you mentioned now turn Gaza into the, to the Riviera.

What do you make of all this?

So, you know, mo, at my age, because remember, I'm much older than you, you know what you know and you know what you don't know. And because my, for now, for all the obvious reasons, my, my primary focus is, is on Israel, for all the obvious reasons.

But when I, so I view much of what you're discussing, not to the extent or not to the depth that I engage with Israel, which again, for the obvious reasons, what always worries me or what source of concern for me, whether it's a Democratic president or Republican president, is this whole issue which you learned in law school and I learned in law school, which is checks and balances of separation of powers. And you know, again, I see all these courts issuing TROs.

We'll see where that goes to in the Israeli context because of Netanyahu's full on evisceration of the rule of law of the Israeli Supreme Court. Maybe you could say by comparison that that raises important questions about the undermining of democracy.

And we both know how fragile democracy is and anything that undermines it, whether it's this era, that area, this president, that president, in response to this event, in response to that event, you know, Lincoln and the Civil War, Roosevelt with the internment of 120,000 Japanese Americans for reasons that I think if he gave Roosevelt a dollar, he wouldn't be able to explain to you why that, why he did it. Those are really, really serious questions because of the fragility of democracy.

What's been the reaction in Israel to Trump's proposal for Gaza?

A very interesting question. The initial response was, I think we would say in English, chuckle, chuckle.

But then Israeli started saying, and this may irritate particularly people like you who served in the military, people started saying, you know, United States of America wants to come to Gaza and, and, and begin the process of rebuilding Gaza and having American forces in Gaza rather than Israeli soldiers. You know, welcome.

The only problem with this, with this plan is as far as I can tell, the President States of America didn't take into consideration there are 1.7 million Gazans who live in Gaza. And I haven't seen anybody suggest something reasonable, rational.

No, the Jordanians are going to take them, the Egyptians are going to take them, the Irish are going to take them, the Moroccans are going to take them, the Saudis aren't going to take them, the Iranians are going to them. This is, they live in Gaza.

And I don't really know this Riviera Gaza, how it plays out with the fact that there are 1.7 million people who live there. But in Israel, there have been voices that say if the United States wants to come in and rule Gaza, welcome.

With the understanding that the humanitarian issue with respect to the Gazans needs to be addressed. If that leads to the release of the hostages, I think you'll you there too. You will see people who will say, you know, hm, interesting.

But again, the 1.7 million Gazans is the issue that, that he can't keep fobbing off and saying, well, they'll go here, they'll go here, they'll go there, they'll go to Turkey, they'll go, I mean, maybe they'll go to North Carolina. That's not going to happen. That's, I mean, that's just not realistic. So I'm not sure to what extent this, this plan has been thought out.

I mean, thoroughly thought out. And I saw that, I believe yesterday during, before the super bowl, after the super bowl, by the, that game was boring as hell.

I have to work that in there. I would suggest to Kansas City to get an offensive line for next year. I really don't know what the thinking is with respect to the 1.7 million Gaza.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of Trump's strategy is to, you know, throw a hundred things against the wall and, you know, recognizing some aren't going to stick but, you know, hoping that some will and, and you know, but I think that's correct. I think a lot of it is not thought through. It's just a notion that occurs to him and he throws it out there to see what if it gets any traction.

If it doesn't, he moves on.

You mean like annex in Canada? You know, as I wrote to a friend in Israel yesterday, I wouldn't say no to this and no that I'd say we shall see.

I mean, I don't, and I really don't know because obviously the President, States of America and his advisors don't call Amos Giora. I don't know how they sequence this, how they implement this, how they go about doing this on a day in, day out basis.

But what's the expression that's been used, Shock and awe. I think that is a pretty accurate articulation of his approach at the moment, including Gaza.

You know, we're seeing here domestically with the dismantling a lot of Government agencies like, you know, here in western North Carolina, we're still recovering from Hurricane Helene. And when Secretary Noem was here over the weekend, it was, you know, talking about shutting down fema.

We're also seeing like National Institute of Health, you know, we have Research Triangle park where a lot of medical research takes place, being impacted. But we're also seeing internationally like pulling out of the who, the weakening of NATO.

What do you see this, the implications of the US pulling back, you know, in the international community. What. What are the implications of that?

We don't need the US as the world's policeman, but we certainly need a US presence. And the notion of the US disengaging from the world, I don't like this phrase. You and your listeners will pardon me, that scares the hell out of me.

Yeah.

By the way, both as an American, you know, I have no hair but two hats. Both as an Israeli and as an American, that's. That is really problematic because I think once you. Again, you know better than me.

Once you disengage, it's hard to re. Engage and you know better than I do. The only thing that brought the U.S. i think the U.S. into World War II was Pearl Harbor. Interesting question.

What happens if Japan doesn't attack Pearl Harbor? What is. Would Roosevelt at some point have totally said to Churchill, yes, I'm all in. Or is it what pushed Roosevelt to Churchill?

Lend lease and all that was Pearl Harbor. Open question.

And we started out, I mentioned that your grandparents were both murdered at Auschwitz. You sent me something this morning about an email that you got. Could you talk a little bit?

The subject line was my grandfather's name, which I've never seen in print. I've seen his name on a memorial in Hungary and I've seen his name on his. I found his. What do you call, property papers that I found in Hungary.

And I read an email and it's extraordinary, extraordinary email that his books that he had taken with him to Auschwitz.

Because I remember when Jews were deported, like my grandparents, they were told to take Suitcases and, and their goods closed because they were taught, they were told they're going to resettlement in the East. I do not know what my grandmother took and I never knew until this what my grandfather took. And it turns out that he brought with him four books.

And the way it worked is the Jews stood in the selection line with their suitcases, you can see the pictures.

And then they were told when they got to the entrance to the crematorium, which obviously they didn't know they were going into the gas chamber of the crematorium to leave the suitcase and they'll pick it up afterwards after being cleaned.

And in that suitcase, in addition to I don't know what else he took, by the way, I've never seen a picture of my grandfather were four books, at least four books. Those books made their way from Auschwitz to Nuremberg in Germany to the home of the arch Nazi ideologue Streicher.

And at some point over the past years, in Streicher's house in Nuremberg was discovered a private library of 9,000 books.

An extraordinary institute in Nuremberg paid for by the German government has for the past 30 years sought to find the descendants of the owners of those 9,000 books. And it turns out that there are no words. And they found me in the following way.

And he wrote his parents name and he wrote about the circumstances of when and how they had been murdered in Auschwitz. And it's detective work, it's Colombo. The people who, who run this institute have a team of literally, of sleuths, Internet sleuths.

And today indeed there's an article about all this. And I am waiting eagerly for the four books to arrive from Germany.

I last week or two weeks ago signed a restitution contract that I am the grandson of and that I will not sell the books that I intend, you know, to keep them for ourselves, for family reasons. I keep getting asked what am I going to do with this? Am I going to write about this? You know, it's at the moment, so overwhelming.

We have a picture of my grandmother, right. I have nothing of my paternal grandfather other than these four books that are on their way from Germany to Salt Lake City.

It's pretty incredible.

81 years later, there are no words. One of the first questions I asked myself what is their condition?

But I finally, today, in that article that I sent you, I finally saw a picture of the book. And to the naked eye it looks like the book, at least one book, is in good shape. Because obviously if not, then you go to. What is it called?

Book Restoration. But it's extraordinary.

It's a pretty neat story. Totally. Speaking of books, you have a new one coming out called Enablers across the.

Ages Normalizing the Unimaginable.

The.

The title is not mine. It came from a friend of mine who, like me, a second generation Holocaust, is a great, great, great, great friend of ours.

He has, a matter of fact, painted an extraordinary portrait of my wife at a demonstration. And the. The book is up. The title is his. To his credit, I examined the Enabler through the.

In Israel today, through also the lens of the Holocaust, through my mother's story. And the book is in the hands of the publisher. And we're looking forward to the.

You know as well as I do the, the inevitable redlining, redlining and redlining.

But it looks at, in what I did in the book, as I look at societal enablers in the Holocaust and in context of Netanyahu's enablers, I call them out by name, I explain why they are enablers. And at the end of the day, because, you know, as the law professor, the whole point of this, of this project is to. Is to criminalize enablers.

Yes, there is. We have a law of immunity law for members of the Parliament and so on member of the Knesset.

But I view the Enabler as committing a crime, not a moral crime, but a legal crime.

I think you know that at the Law School we established the Bystander Initiative, which works on books, articles, legislative testimonies, essays, interviews and so on, with the idea of shining a very, very, very, very bright light on the enablers and the bystanders. Because I, you know, I've convinced myself that the enabler, bystander, particularly the enabler, is essential to the perpetrator. And it is what not.

My phrase is from a former research assistant, the ecosystem of enabling which is responsible for. For harm that needs to be addressed and the way to address it systemically rather than tactically is to prosecute the enabler.

In addition to prosecuting the perpetrator and that's the enabler.

Going after the enabler is not in any way to minimize the harm caused by the, the perpetrator, but it's to say there's, there's an additional actor whose role is critical to the crime committed.

I look forward to seeing it. And listen, I just want to say thank you for, for taking some of your time and joining us on, on mucu.

It's, it's always good to talk to you and you're, you're a good man. I'm really proud to have you as a friend.

So, you know, it's very, very, very mutual. You know that.

Well, thanks. Professor Amos Guiora from the University of Utah School of Law. Our guest today on Muck You!,

You can learn more @AmericanMucKrakers.com.