In the third bonus episode of Season 13, Simon and Bex talk faith and finance with Dave McCarthy, Lead Pastor of Westhill Community Church in Aberdeenshire.

Some key points of interest covered in this episode include the following:

• Dave’ introduces himself [01:26] and describes how he became an unexpected convert to Christianity. [02:22]
• Dave’s journey into church leadership also had some surprising elements, including dropping out of university but then being accepted for ordination in a remarkably brief time frame. [05:11]
• Church leadership training at that time did not include financial understanding and management; instead, the relevant skills and knowledge had to be picked up on the job, once appointed to a position of responsibility within a church. [08:01]
• A couple of Bible verses that have been particularly significant for Dave have been Matthew 6.21 (‘For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.’) and Psalm 50.10 (‘For every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.). Dave describes the latter as ‘a really powerful verse’ and one that ‘I always have… in my head’ when ‘we’ve got to find resources from somewhere’. [09:02]
• For Dave, the best way of communicating godly truths about financial matters is to draw attention to examples of God’s provision within the local church. In one example, faith and encouragement were stimulated by a generous donation that enabled a building project to go ahead. [11:05] In another instance, a fundraising target prompted by the lack of a church toilet ended up being the means through which a congregation grew in belief and generosity after uniting in prayer and a willingness to give in response to that need. [12:34]
• Dave benefited from being in supportive churches with a long history of being open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit but he acknowledges that the financial ups and downs of church leadership can take their toll on individuals and wonders whether other leadership models need to be considered for the future. [14:51]
• In response to a question from Simon asking him what he would say to a congregation if he were to be given free rein [16:41], Dave said that he would highlight the following points: generosity begets generosity, and God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9.6-7) [17:59]; everything that a church is able to do is funded by its congregation [18:30]; giving should not become a legalistic duty but should always come from the heart. [19:15]
• When it comes to practical tips, Dave notes the importance of budgeting [20:52], of making our giving a primary consideration [21:07] and ensuring that we review our giving regularly. [21:15] There is also an onus on the church to provide appropriate information, teaching and encouragement for new Christians and church members regarding financial matters. [21:54]
• Dave’s final tip, inspired by Proverbs 16.9 (‘A man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.’), is to ensure that we take time to plan for the long term, especially as far as our retirement aspirations are concerned. [23:50]
• Your bonus for reading these show notes is that you get to find out that the next season of the podcast, coming after our summer break, will be all about ‘Financial Crises’! [25:58]

Suggestions or feedback arising from this episode can be sent via email to [email protected] while messages via Instagram should be directed to @whereyourtreasureispodcast.

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Simon

Welcome to ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’, the podcast where faith meets finance.

Bex

I'm Bex Elder.

Simon

And I'm Simon Glazier. Each episode, we're going to explore how biblical wisdom can guide our everyday money decisions.

Bex

We'll be looking at how we can give generously, save wisely, and navigate the complex financial realities we face.

Simon

But remember, investments can go down as well as up.

Bex

This is, ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’

Simon

Let's get started!

Bex

I'm going to be honest! We have been spoiling you recently with guest episodes and we have another one today. Simon, who have we got today? What's happening?

Simon

Well, we have a local church leader to us, up here in the Northeast of Scotland. We will let him introduce himself shortly. He's moved north, apparently, from the Central Belt, The Big Smoke, the big cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow, to rural Aberdeenshire, where he leads a community church. His name is Dave McCarthy. I've never met Dave before, so this is brand new to me. It's very exciting!

And we're going to quiz him about all things faith and finance from a church leader perspective. Bex, why don't you start us off with a poignant question for Dave?

Bex

I mean, it's not very poignant! I was just going to say, Dave, why don't you introduce yourself?

Dave

Oh, thank you, Bex. Thank you, Simon. My name is Dave McCarthy. I am an Ayrshire boy at heart, rural Ayrshire. So, moving to rural Aberdeenshire was not such a great hardship.

I lived in and worked and served in Glasgow for more than 30 years in churches in the Central Belt. And I came up to Aberdeenshire just over two years ago with a kind of call that I felt a bit like Jonah - when God called us to Aberdeenshire, my wife and I ran in the opposite direction for about a year and then we gave in and got obedient for a change!

Simon

I did some checking this out recently. I reckon that we live further north than about 99% of the population of the UK, so we are literally the top 1%! That is where we are right now in the country!

So, we've heard a bit about what brought you to Aberdeenshire, Dave; tell us a bit about what brought you to Christ. Give us a potted history of your faith journey, whenever that started.

Dave

Early 1980s, I lived in a small town in Ayrshire, a place called Dalry in the Garnock Valley. Post-industrial now, but a great industrial heartland of Scotland.

Didn't go to church, wasn't involved in church, had a nominal connection with the Church of Scotland, but I met some Christians who took me along to church and I met the leaders of their youth group and spent maybe 18 months, two years arguing about why being a non-believer was better than being a believer - trying to persuade them, but not having much success.

But went along to this youth group and sat at the back with my arms crossed and argued; but became friends with a group of older guys and I think they had kind of given up on me ever coming to faith. And then, one night, this youth group decided to go and visit the Operation Mobilisation ship, the ‘Doulos’, that was in Glasgow.

So I went along to this thing, and George Verwer was speaking, the great George Verwer. I thought he was terrible with this message of the cross and suffering on the cross for our sins! I just thought, ‘Wow, nothing to do with me!’

And there was drama going on. I fancied myself as a bit of an actor. I know that's probably hard to believe, but I fancied myself that I might go on the stage. Someone came on as Jesus with red felt tip pen marks in their hands. And I face palmed and thought it was terrible!

But a guy came up to us after the meeting had finished and stopped me and my friend and said to us, ‘Are you guys Christians?’ And my friend said he was, and I rather arrogantly said, ‘No, I'm not.’ I don't know how he'd work that out - I think it was maybe my combat jacket with the heavy metal badges on and those kind of things on it! He picked up that I might not be a believer, anyway!

He said, ‘Well, look, I want to share this verse with you.’ He shared this verse with me from Revelation, which said, ‘If your name's not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, you're going to the lake of fire.’ And at that point I went, ‘Well, that's me - done for! It's all over!’

And he said, ‘Do you want to become a Christian?’

I said, ‘Yes, please!’

So, it's kind of the least evangelistic verse in many ways that you could ever find, but the Holy Spirit was just all over me that night. I was in tears of repentance and got on the train to go home and all these youth group guys were there. And it had all gone around the youth group what had happened. And they just couldn't believe this had happened because, ‘McCarthy has got converted.’

‘What's going on here?’

‘You know, he's a tough nut to crack!’

Bex

Very relatable content in terms of some days following Jesus being much better than others!

And I'm interested, Dave - you had this moment where you met with Jesus, perhaps in quite unlikely circumstances, and now you lead a church; you've led several churches over the years. How did you go from that place of meeting Jesus for the first time to then deciding to give your life to leading other people to meet Jesus?

Dave

Well, again, that's a long story, but, basically, I was at the stage of life of trying to work out what I was going to do.

I was coming up to doing Highers and stuff, and my contemporaries were all going to go to university and I thought, ‘Oh, I'll go to university to study theology,’ - divinity as it was then. So that's what I did. Not really with an intention of going into ministry, but just to learn.

I hadn't really got a sense that I should get ordained or anything, but went to Glasgow University for a year, aged 17 and absolutely hated it! I moved into a flat in Glasgow and had a great year but hated the theology bit of it because I was young, I'd been a Christian for maybe a year at that point and just wasn't strong enough to deal with the kind of rigours (intellectual rigours), but also the kind of liberalism of some academic theology.

So, I dropped out after a year and went and did various jobs for a while, moved back home with my mum and dad. That's a great joy when your kids move away and then they move back to stay with you! Oh, what a nightmare it was for my mum and dad!

I still had the sense that maybe I would go and study at some point, but in the meantime, over the next few years, I ended up in the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Anglican Church in Scotland, and the minister of the church that we went to, a little rural church in Ayrshire, discovered I'd gone to do theology and he came to me and said, ‘Have you ever thought about being ordained?’

And at that point, I didn't really know what ordination was, but he explained it to me and within the course of about six months I went from having conversations with him to then going to see the bishop. He recommended me to a selection conference and from beginning to talk about it and think about it to ending up in a theological college in Edinburgh was about six months, aged 21! It just would not happen like that now! But it all happened really quickly. I ended up in another liberal college, actually - I don't know what that was about! - but it was hard work! I spent four years training, studying theology at Edinburgh University.

My first day at college, the principal of the college said, ‘God knows where I'm going to find a job for you, a ministry for you when you come out!’

To which I think I said in my humble way, ‘Yes, I'm sure he does!’

But I ended up as a curate, assistant minister, in a church called St Paul's and St George's in Edinburgh. So, I kind of was put back together there over the course of three years. And everything I now know I largely learned in those three years in that church. And the Lord really was very kind and gracious. After four hard years of study and difficult theological experience, he put me back together again and gave me a great training, actually, for the rest of my life as a minister.

Simon

This next question might have a very, very short answer! We'll wait and see! This is a faith and finance podcast, and we like to try and bring those two topics together as best we can.

In your year of divinity, in your four years of theological college, in your three years as a curate, what kind of financial education did you receive in terms of running a church, teaching a congregation? What does the Bible say about money? What did you learn? Did you learn much? Was there any?

Dave

Well, Simon, it's a long time ago, and I'm sure it's very, very different now, but I do not recall any help or any teaching on giving or stewardship or even just relating money to discipleship. I don't remember anything like that now. I'm sure it is different now. It had better be different now”

But then it was nothing, and certainly nothing that would help pastors lead their congregation and help the congregation understand how their stewardship of all that God has given them relates to church life and discipleship and what keeps the roof on, and so on.

But one learns very quickly on the job how to begin to do that, because you have to!

Bex

And so, having not really had any guidance on that, what were the parts of the Bible that began to shape your theology on that and also shaped your teaching on giving and money and finance?

Dave

Well, you've called this podcast ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’, and obviously that is such a key teaching from Jesus, really, of what it is about the resources that he gives to us that reveal so much about our attitude towards these things. So that would be the first thing.

The other verse I think about a lot is that verse from Psalm 50, ‘I am the Lord of the cattle on a thousand hills.’

There's more to it than that because he talks about everything in the world belongs to him. And I've always found that to be a really powerful verse. It's a great reminder the Lord has all the resources that he needs.

And so whenever there's a challenge in ministry and church life where we've got to find resources from somewhere, I always have that verse in my head that he is the owner, the Lord of the cattle on a thousand hills. He has everything that we could possibly need.

And I've had to be reminded of that. When you've been in ministry a long time, there are always projects - building projects or mission projects - that need resourcing. And when we go into it, we can feel, ‘Aarrggh, how are we going to cope with this? Where are the resources going to come from?’

But it is amazing! I've got so many stories I could tell of how the Lord has met needs and surprised his people with the way that he's provided.

Simon

So, what are some of the challenges around what it means having to decide for yourself, your personal finance position, what your faith convictions are, what your beliefs are around God owning it all, us being stewards, our journey of generosity… and, at the same time, in your job as a leader or a co-leader of a church, having to balance the financial requirement of an organisation that employs people, that has buildings, that has plans and purposes, where money is at the heart of what you have to do to deliver the mission of the church?

Dave

I think it's always helpful when people see God's hand at work. That's the greatest thing!

I can teach from the pulpit; strangely, I don't do that very often. I've been here two years and I haven't taught about money at all because the people here in Westhill Community Church, they've learned - they know about God's provision.

I just had a person come to visit me a few weeks ago and say, ‘I've discovered this insurance policy that I didn't know we had and I believe God's told me that I have to give this money to the church, to Westhill. And it was a large sum of money; it was a five-figure sum”

And, of course, I'm sitting there when someone comes and tells me this… the kind of excitement of that - that's kind of an amazing thing, isn't it!

And there's been battles to get this money to come through, not because the person doesn't want to give it, but because banks are more difficult now about people just giving away large sums of money. They have processes and so on.

We had a particular project in mind. We hadn't talked about the project, but when the person came to us and shared that they wanted to give this money. I said, ‘Well, look, we're thinking about doing this. How would you feel if this went towards this project?’

And they were delighted by that! And it's been a physical building project. We've shared with the congregation, this giving. Nobody knows who it is. There's only two people in the church know who this person is, and one is the treasurer and the other one's me.

But it's been such an encouragement and people learn through that. And just a step of faith!

I've served as the leader of big congregations and a smaller congregation. And the first church that I looked after was in South Queensferry, just where the Forth road and rail bridges are. A fourteenth century church building - it dated back so far into Scottish history! But it was lacking the key thing that any church building must have in order to do mission well - a toilet!

Because if you're trying to bring families into the church and you don't have a toilet, people come in and go, where are kids going to go? So, we had kids lining up along the wall outside, doing the toilet. That was an advert on a Sunday morning - half a dozen small children having a wee, I guess!

So, the first project was to put in a toilet, and it was going to cost £6,000. So, we had the whole church together and people said, ‘Well, we could have a plant sale in order to try and raise money.’

And I couldn't quite believe that they were suggesting these things. So, I said, ‘We'll do two things, okay? We'll simply pray about it. We'll come together, we'll call the whole church together to pray, and then we'll ask the people of God to give the money.’

So, we needed £6,000 and within one day we got much more than that! And we had little old ladies who'd never seen anything like this in all their church life. They couldn't believe it - £6,000 like that! - because the Lord is the Lord of the cattle on a thousand hills.

So, their faith levels just went up because they saw God's hand at work, flowing from prayer, and the encouragement of that, and people giving generously from what they could. So, learning from small stories like that and big gifts as well - it's always a great joy to experience that and see that happening.

Bex

I love the way you brought that invitation to be part of the story God's writing, and to give generously with simplicity, making the Lord the focus in terms of, ‘We're going to pray and then we're going to ask and we play our part in that.’

I'm wondering how it's felt over the years with the highs and lows of, ‘We have this need we need to meet and I don't know how we're going to do that right now,’ versus, ‘Gosh, we've had this significant gift that we didn't expect, that we can now fund this project that we feel God's asking us to do and that actually no one knew about at that point!’

How do you navigate those kind of highs and lows? How do you keep going for all the days in between?

Dave

Ministers in the past were not given great training in managerial skills, managing buildings and fundraising, and all the things that keep the roof on. So, I think for a lot of people who pastor, there can be dark days.

I have had the privilege of leading churches that had long history as Bible teaching, believing, open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So, a lot of my predecessors had done a lot of the heavy lifting before I got there, and that has been helpful.

But a lot of my friends have not had that experience. They've not had the benefit of that, and it's been hard. It has been hard to simply trust in God.

So, from my perspective, I would not say it's ever been easy, but I've never been particularly stressed. But then I say that as someone who's drawing towards the end of active ministry and I think the world is changing around us.

The most expensive thing for any church is having someone like me serving as the leader. I sometimes wonder if we had a different pattern, what pattern might we adopt that would be better?

I have this theory that what churches need to do is find someone who is training as a plumber or an electrician or a roofer, something that AI is not going to be able to do very easily. Get somewhere like that, so that ‘tent-making’ becomes a thing rather than people like me who are full time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diminish what the Lord calls me to do, but I just wonder if there are different models and we've got ourselves stuck, and we need to be a bit more creative about how churches are organised as we look to the future.

Simon

It sounds very much like Paul on his ministry journeys. He's a tent maker. He funded his own way and yet planted many, many congregations around the place who supported ministries into the future.

So, Dave, you stand in front of a congregation at a pulpit and you have to distil your forty-something years’ worth of knowledge, experience, wisdom, Bible study. What are the key messages?

It's not your congregation now, it's somebody else's congregation - they're never going to see you ever again. You stand there, you tell them the way it is and then you walk away and leave them to it. What are the things that you would love to be able to say to them? This is what God wants you to do with your money, come on!

Dave

That's a great question!

One of the joys for us of coming up to Aberdeenshire is we live five minutes cycle away from the church in a little village just outside of Westhill. And I come on my little bike most days, and I cycle past some fields. So, we've been here two years. So, we've watched the cycle of ploughing and growing and reaping.

There have been some days I've just stopped in my tracks as I've watched this field. I've just been amazed, watching the seeds that I've seen being sown, growing, coming to fruition and then the farmer coming in the tractor and reaping. All of that, I've loved it! It takes me back to the place that I grew up in again; it just has been a constant reminder. I'm so privileged, really, to be living in the countryside like that.

But it reminds me of that passage constantly, from 2 Corinthians, chapter 9: ‘Remember this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.’

I guess that would be the primary lesson that I have learned through life, and go on learning, that I think is helpful for anybody sitting in the congregation.

People need to understand where the resources to keep the roof on a church building come from.

We have a cafe that we run as a commercial cafe and people come and say, ‘How much does the council contribute to keeping your tarmac going and keeping the roof on the building?’ because they think it's a cafe with a church attached, rather than a church with a cafe attached.

And we have to constantly remind people that everything that happens in this building is funded by the people that come and the people that worship here and the people that follow Jesus in this place because they give generously and they give cheerfully from what they have.

We have a bit of a debate as well. Someone came to me recently who was joining the church, they come from Africa. And I said, ‘Have you got any questions?’ because we were going to welcome them as a new member the following week.

And they said to me, ‘So, what about tithing, then? How do I give my tithe?’

And I thought, ‘Oh, this is interesting!’ because tithing is a good principle, but that's what it is - it's not a law. And, actually, if anything, we give as generously as we can and we give more than a tithe; a tithe can become legalistic, so I wanted to avoid that.

So, we had a big, long conversation about this. And I said, ‘Look, the key thing is you choose what you want to give under God. I'm not going to tell you; I'm not going to open up your bank book and see how much you've got. That's not for me. It's not my place to do that. This is between you and God, and God will show you how much you're to give and how you are to give it. But the key thing is to do it generously and do it cheerfully, knowing that you're being a blessing; God is using you to bring blessing to the body of Christ.

Those would be the key things that I would want to be constantly encouraging people, not being legalistic about it, but being passionate about it - that it's really, really important! - but to avoid that trap of, ‘Here's the money: it's a contract; it's a deal!’

It's not about you give in order to get.

You give simply because that's the pattern that God has established for us.

Bex

And I think the way you've articulated that challenge, and sometimes trap, is fascinating because it's all too easy sometimes to think, ‘Gosh, if I wasn't giving to church, I could do this with my money, I could do that with my money!’

And so, I would love you, if possible, to ground that in some practical tips. How do we keep giving cheerfully without it becoming either something we're numb to that just happens (that isn't sacrificial - we don't notice it), or something that we can almost resent or wrestle with, on that end of the scale?

Dave

I think budgeting is quite important. Hopefully we know how much is coming in every month and we have to work out where that money is going to go.

And, of course, we're still in a cost-of-living crisis, so that makes it quite difficult for people to budget towards God, if you like.

But if you do it as the primary consideration - it's not, like, what's left over will go to God's purposes - but make that the first thing.

I think one problem with that is that people make a determination and they sign up for the direct debit every month and then forget to review it on an annual basis. But we have to do that, because hopefully people are getting pay rises every month. If they're in work, they're able to budget from that.

But we then sometimes get stuck at giving at a certain level. And, of course, just as the cost of living affects us as individuals and as families, it affects the church as well, because the cost of heating and lighting, the church building, the cost of salaries and so on - all of that goes up. The costs go up every year. So, I think budgeting is a key consideration. I think that is one of the most helpful, practical things.

And sometimes we need to help one another with that, to think through that. We try to do that a little bit without being too directive when people are coming to faith - to help them think a little bit about how they will give and to try and think through what a budget for that would look like.

I would be concerned that people wouldn't get caught up in this idea that you give in order to get. I think that's becoming a more common thing now, and it's partly to do with the entitlement that is in operation in our culture now. I think young people, in particular, grow up with this sense of the bank of mum and dad is there, much more so than someone like me, who's in their 60s, experienced growing up.

When I left home, I never went to my mum and dad and expected any financial help from them and never received any financial help from them. But nowadays, it's much harder because people's expectations are so much higher. And I think that maybe means that people are used to receiving but not used to giving. But when they come to faith, there's a whole new learning that has to go on. And maybe as churches, we've not been very good at that. Someone like me makes assumptions that people will come in and give; people come and do an ‘Alpha’ course or a ‘Three, Two, One’ course, and people will just know how to give. But they don't; they don't. Or if they do, it's sporadic - it's things like Children in Need or Red Nose Day. They give to that and they don't understand we need - God needs - people to be giving regularly as a sign of their love for him.

And so, we need to teach and allow the Holy Spirit to guide people in how they might begin to give.

Simon

Yeah, it's so interesting to consider the spiritual maturity of believers and how that can almost be mapped out within their financial generosity.

Dave, we should probably think about wrapping this up, as much as we would love to speak to you, as long as we could.

Open question: is there anything that you'd like to share with our listeners, with us - a verse you've learned, a story you remember, something that God has taught you about faith and finance? What would you like to say, Dave?

Dave

Well, I love that verse from Proverbs that says we make our plans - human beings make plans - but the Lord directs our steps.

That's a powerful verse in lots of ways, but I think it is important in terms of faith and finance because I think just as budgeting is important, we also need to be making plans for the future about how our resources are going to be used.

So, a final tip from me as someone who is looking towards the possibility of one day retiring from leading a church is, you need to plan for that and start young. And I think it's something we need to get better at helping people with and saying, ‘This is a really important thing to be considering!’

When it's forty years away, that's forever. It feels like it's such a long, long time away, but it goes so quickly! Our time here on this earth is short and in order to be ready for that end period of life, before one goes to glory, you need to prepare for it, plan for it well. I think, under God, that's a good and a cool and a right thing to be doing!

So, I've learned that - probably later than I wished I had learned it - and I wish someone had been encouraging me, nay nagging me, when I was younger to be thinking about that! But it is this long-term planning - we're not very good at it in the church. Maybe the last 20, 30 years we've talked about having five year plans for our church, but we need to think longer than that. The church will survive beyond individuals, and what's it going to look like in 10 or 15 or 20 years’ time?

And it's good to think like that. It's good to think, ‘What is the Lord saying today?’, but what does he want us to be? Where does he want us to be for the long term?

Bex

Dave, thank you so much for that challenge for us to think about, but also for your time and your wisdom today. I think we will be reflecting on the Bible verses that you mentioned and some of those stories and then our part to play for a long time.

Simon, what's coming up next?

Simon

Well, Bex, we've done some cracking guests, so I think it's back to me and you! Should we do a season together?

Bex

I guess so. I guess we should actually come up with some original content rather than coasting off everyone else!

Simon

Well, stay tuned for the next season and the next episode of the ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’ podcast. We know what it's about. We're not going to tell you! You'll have to go and check your show notes or just start listening in!

But until then, from me, Simon Glazier, financial planner: ‘It's been a pleasure, thank you very much and goodbye!’

Bex

From me, Bex Elder, business owner and chief question asker: ‘Goodbye!’

Dave

And from me as well, Dave McCarthy: ‘Thank you for having me! Bye!’

Bex

That's it for this episode of ‘Where Your Treasure Is…’

Simon

Thanks for listening. Let's keep learning to be good stewards of all we've been given.

Bex

See you next time.