Timmy is the type of entrepreneur that inspires at every turn. He provides a combination of realism and optimism that is rare. I believe the audience will be drawn to his story, his approach to navigating transitions and why people matter most.

Tim McCarthy is an entrepreneur and social change advocate with almost twenty years of experience in the business world. Tim spent many years building and focusing on RCO Limited, the Ohio Franchise Partner of Raising Cane’s Chicken Fingers. He built this up to be the largest franchise organization within the Raising Cane’s system, and Tim and RCO Limited became known for their impressive results as well as the way they advocated for and supported their employees.

Motivated by the social impact made possible by a successful business, and desiring to make this impact on a larger scale, Tim and his business partners purchased WorkPlace Impact (then WorkPlace Media) in 2013. In July 2017, Cara Zale, a Social Capital Investment Company was born. Through Cara Zale, Tim and his partners publicize that they are focused on “Growing Great Businesses and Developing People who Create Social Change.”

Tim lives in Worthington, OH, and teaches regularly at Ohio State University, his MBA alma mater, sharing his experiences in building businesses with students at the Fisher College of Business. He has been mentioned or featured in articles in Business First, Franchise Times, The Daily Reporter, The Lantern, Crain’s and The Columbus Dispatch.

Tim currently serves as chair of The Business of Good Foundation based in Mentor, OH, and has helped to develop TheBusinessofGood.org and their practice of “Serving Those Who Serve the Very Poor.” He also hopes to encourage budding entrepreneurs and social entrepreneurs to continue their development of community and national projects, as those are the sources of America’s future potential success.

In each episode, Jeff and Eric will talk about what emotional intelligence, or understanding your emotions, can do for you in your daily and work life. For more information, contact Eric or Jeff at info@spiritofeq.com, or go to their website, Spirit of EQ.

You can follow The Spirit of EQ Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Android, or on your favorite podcast player.

New episodes are available on the 2nd and 4th Wednesdays every month!

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Spirit of EQ

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This podcast was created to be a tool to primarily help you to discover and grow your EQ. Science and our own lived experiences confirm that the better we are at managing our emotions, the better we're going to be at making decisions. Which leads to a better life. And that's something we all want. We're glad that you've taken the time today to listen. We hope that something you hear will lead to a breakthrough. We'd really appreciate a review on your podcast platform. Please leave some comments about what you heard today, as well as follow and subscribe to the podcast. That way, you won't miss a single episode as we continue this journey.

Eric: Welcome, everyone, to the Spirit of EQ podcast. This is Eric Pennington. Today we have a very special guest with us, mr. Timmy McCarthy with Cocoon Investments. This is an episode I've been very anxious to do, primarily because I want to have him on the show for probably over a year. But my accessibility, my, hey, Timmy. That all kind of fell to the side until about a month and a half, two months ago, and he was able to fit us in. So we're super excited.

Timmy: That makes me sound important.

Eric: Well, Timmy, you are in my orbit. You are. And I think our listeners are going to get a tremendous amount out of our conversation as well. So tell me, uh, I mentioned you before we went on air that I like to give our guests the opportunity to tell their story. So I've known you, I know your background and all this. Can you tell the world a little bit about yourself? And then let's dive in.

Eric: Uh?

Timmy: And he said, yeah, in fact, I do. I just got off stage, uh, talking, uh, at a conference, uh, in the restaurant space. And this guy, uh, came up to me afterwards, uh, with eight chicken finger restaurants, a black and white logo, and sold everything individually. Uh, and he asked me if I would, uh, do work with him as a marketing consultant. But I can't be a marketing consultant and build the business that I want to build, which has an asset that, uh, I can sell someday. So why don't you take him on as a client, and I'll teach you how to be a marketing consultant, and you can pay for your last two years of school. And I thought, oh, my goodness, this is great. I jumped to the chance, I said, yes, absolutely, um, I'll do that. And the guy that came up to him, uh, was Todd Graves, who founded Raising Canes, um, chicken finger restaurants. And so, um, I worked on that as a project for my last two years of college, paid for my last two years of college, graduated as an English major. Uh, and, uh, then what do you do with an English major?

Eric: You start a franchise. Right.

Timmy: Well, I wanted to teach.

Eric: Okay.

Eric: Oh, wow.

Timmy: What was, uh, Beacon's bagel? Ah, shop. And, uh, then opened up restaurant Number Two on the corner of Ackerman and Olen Tangy. And, uh, 44 restaurants later, um, merged back with, uh, Raising Canes. And now I'm trying to figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do with the rest of my life.

Eric: Oh, man, there's a lot there. And there's even a part of that story that didn't dawn on me, because you've told, when we've had conversations individually about that you would have been about 20 years old when your dad said, here's an idea for you. Yes, that seemed to be was that a little daunting?

Timmy: Um, I think if I didn't recognize in the moment what the other daunting option was, which was to stop school, then, yeah, it would have been a little more daunting. But it was almost like, listen, and he never even said it this way, but it was almost like, you can either choose to stop going to Wittenberg, or you can take on this quote, unquote, daunting task. Um, and so it almost didn't feel that daunting, um, in the moment. It was kind of like, oh, yeah, no, that makes sense. Uh, sure, I'll do that.

Eric: All right, so as I go down a rabbit hole and, uh, our producer Brett can say, yes, Eric, you diec, rabbit hole. I got to ask as well. So I know there's some kids, especially, I would say today, who might say, well, hey, why didn't your dad just write the check for your last two years? Or, can you just get another loan? But those were your two options.

Eric: I might be doing this from a cathartic standpoint, because my son, sometimes he looks at me as if, why don't you just write me a check? And he goes, I'm an entrepreneur, Grant. Uh, I'm not drinking cognac and smoking cigars every night, and I'm flying private. It's like I'm working my rear off here. Um, so good for your dad. Um, so you made that, and you mentioned about what you want to do with the next part of your life, and that is one of the things I want to talk about today.

Timmy: Great.

Eric: But there was a story, and this is when we first met, and, uh, for lack of giving the entire story and that all stuff, the kind of work I was doing for you at Raising Canes around, helping your people with thank you. That's good. I appreciate that. Keeping me straight here. Um, working with Raising Canes, the idea was people development, helping them see what they could be, what they could do, how they could make, what their dreams, and on and on. And I was one of the people that came to you, said, hey, yeah, I think that would be something I'd be interested in doing. And I didn't know you at the time. Uh, and I was also just a bit curious. It's like, wait a minute. You want to dedicate this amount of time and you want to let it people focused? Yes, it was very people focused. And the thing that still sticks with me today, I asked you, was there some event, some AHA, moment where you just said, oh, now I understand, or why this happened to me, so I must do this. And you just looked at me, and those were in a studio, so you can't see us visually. So I remember the look on your face. It was kind of like, no, I just can't stand to see people stuck.

Timmy: Yeah.

Eric: And I just said there was two parts going in my head. One, I'm going, how profound? And the other is like, I don't think I've met someone like this before. Right.

Timmy: Because they're for myself.

Eric: Right. You are definitely a unicorn man. Yeah.

Timmy: But you are the unicorn, too.

Eric: Well, they're matching accordingly. Yes. I get that the universe kind of converging at all, right. I get it. Um, but I still remember sitting in that little office. It was an office like a conference room in, uh, Worthington and just going, this guy really believes this. So I wanted to unwrap that a bit. I know you didn't want to see people stuck. What was it about seeing people stuck that, for lack of a better way of saying, broke your heart?

Timmy: Well, I felt stuck myself, too. I mean, on multiple occasions. And, uh um uh, I was lucky enough to have a network that I had access to. Um, that when I stepped back and realized it. Not everyone has that same network and access to resources, and I don't mean financial resources. I just told you about Rocky ROMs and just barely scraping by. My mom had our famous story in the house, uh, is of a $15 birthday, uh, where she literally smashed, uh, in order for us to get ice cream cake, she smashed hydrox cookies, a in plastic bag and threw them in a bucket of ice cream. And that was our ice cream cake. And we had a present. And we still talk about it. We don't talk about all the ones that were amazing and had all kinds of gifts and all that kind of stuff. We still talk about the $15 birthday. Right. Those are moments in my life, but they aren't my whole life. And so, um, I recognized, um, as I was building the business, mhm, that the people that I was working with this is not noble or glorious. That is, the majority of their lives are these $15 birthdays and that kind of thing. And in this space, especially in the restaurant industry, many people can feel stuck, um, and many people find opportunities through the restaurant industry. But, uh, at the same time, there's a lot of stuckness happening. It broke my heart to see people that didn't feel like they had the ability to take that next step.

Eric: Yeah.

Timmy: And so I actually stepped back, and as I was trying to figure out how I would approach that, which is where you and I interacted, uh, with each other, um, I actually tried to and this is a little bit of you said rabbit hole. Um, uh, I'm kind of thinking out loud of how the sausage got made, but I stepped back and I took a whiteboard, and I started, uh, to draw maslow's, um, hierarchy of needs in terms of how do I, um, uh, help people get unstuck. And I was thinking about physiological needs and, um, uh, all the way up to self actualization. And I started to draw a line on the pyramid and said, anybody in the organization that's below this line, I'm going to give them a fish. And anybody above this line, I'm going to teach how to fish. And then I realized, what an ahole. So now I'm the person that's going to give someone a fish because they're below this line, but they've been knowing how to give themselves fishes all the freaking time. And I'm the ahole that's going to come along and be like, oh, yeah, here's some more fish. No, they actually know how to fish, but I got to teach them how to. Or maybe I can help them realize how good they already are at fishing and that they can write their own futures. And that's where you and I started intersecting. And that's what brought about this whole concept.

Eric: And I'm glad that, um, you kind of unwrapped that a little further, um, because, uh, one of the things without fail, and I'm an observer, uh, Timmy and you know that sometimes I'd go into some of those interactions with your people and just pay attention right. And kind of go, okay, what is it about this? Because as you realize, man, there are a number of organizations even now, I know that you've made the transition sort of, for lack of a better way to describe it, out of raising cane, but there are organizations out there today who are like, that's what we want to do. We've been trying to do that for years. But it seems we did this program. We did that program. You know the drill. Right.

Timmy: Yes.

Eric: So as I kind of transition and pivot a bit, um, to this idea, because it's not totally about engagement, but we recorded an episode recently that's coming out about, um, this idea about, um, think of the pyramid. Right?

Timmy: Yeah.

Eric: You have one point of the pyramid is the intellectual side of us as human beings. Right. Another point is the emotional side, and then the other point is spiritual. Right. And for our audience, if you haven't listened to the episode yet, what I'm talking about when I say spiritual is I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about who you are. What makes Timmy McCarthy, Eric Pennington, who they are. That's the spiritual, the emotional. What are we doing with our emotions? How do we manage this flow that continue goes through us every single day? And then the intellectual, which I think our society has embraced to the point.

Timmy: Of almost imbalance it is. Yeah.

Eric: And that was kind of the point we were making on the episode. It's like we're living as part human beings because those other two third human beings. Yeah, exactly. And don't get me wrong. To me, it's not that I'm judging and saying, well, if you don't do this, then you're not this. It's me saying, if you want to live your life a third of who you are, that's your choice. Who am I to say you should do differently? But there's something interesting in the dynamic of engagement, because I've been thinking about, well, you have a person who may be as well paid. They have great benefits, uh, on and on, but yet they're dry. What's missing? So I'm going to kind of go down that pathway. Not necessarily to my pyramid idea, but maybe when you look back, what do you think are some of the reasons why we're in that engagement vacuum, or we have this engagement problem?

Timmy: So I actually heard a speaker one ah time, and she was wonderful, and she, uh, helped me understand, uh, that, um, there's two things that are out there, um, especially as it comes to someone, um, working in and with your organization, mhm. There are intangible benefits, and there are the tangible benefits, m. And a lot of times when we're out there talking to people and talking to others, uh, we talk a lot about these intangible benefits of working with us, which, if you put that out into the ether, it almost sounds too good to be true. And all of a sudden, people start turning off and tuning out because it's like they've got their BS radar up. And so they're like, yeah, okay, whatever. Or we go the other way, where we talk about nothing but the tangible benefits, flexible schedules, and, uh, paid time off and all these other things that are very tangible. But then they get in the door and the intangible side of things, it's not sticky enough. They get in and nobody notices that they're there. Nobody cares. Nobody asks. Nobody asks that question around, how's life? How are you doing? Is everything okay? Um, or they don't for a while, but then somebody feels and gets stuck, and they don't care to notice then either. Um, and it's the briefest of moments that happens where someone decides whether or not they're going to stick with you for forever. And if you can catch that moment at the right time and get other people's, uh, radars enough up, not so that they're so vigilant that it's just, oh, hey, are you okay? Are you okay? Everybody okay? Okay, let's go talk about this. It's more of, um, frankly, it's a natural instinct that we have. But I think to your point of the imbalance, uh, in the pyramid, we spend so much time in the logical space of need, uh, that we forget to notice the points at which other people are imbalanced on those other parts. Yeah, right.

Eric: Yeah. And I get it, too. Uh, there are probably certain leaders or whatever that might say, hey, we're not talking about spiritual stuff.

Timmy: Right.

Eric: Or emotions, uh, you know what I mean?

Timmy: Because it's scary. It's concerning. But going back to the tangible and tangible thing, right. Um, we spend so much time on ping pong tables, um, and foosball tables and free lunches, which are all beautiful and amazing tangible benefits, that we forget the substance that keeps people around, that creates the stickiness of an awesome organization.

Eric: Well, and I know in the work at Spirit of EQ, um, and though I've mentioned it before, certainly if I could have had my wish, I wouldn't use a pandemic in order to get sort of eyes to open. It would not have been my choice. But here we are. And all of the stuff that kind of just kind of attached and attached. And it wasn't just a pandemic, it was this and this and this, right?

Timmy: Yes.

Eric: And I will say that, um, in the organizations that we work with, there is now an openness. Like, it's not a shutdown anymore. We don't need that. Or, you know what? Um, fourth quarter. Call me then. Now it's like, okay, I'm listening. And I'm appreciative of that for obvious reasons. But it's almost like the person who waited till the water was up to their nose and then says, hey, timmy, can you help me here? Yes, I can. Yes, I'll try, but man, the water was up to your waist, like, an hour ago. That would have been the most optimal time to get you out of there. So I say all that to say, number one for our audience, it's not too late. That's not my message. We've hit the tipping point and we're done. I just think it's kind of that dynamic of, um, when we're talking about paying attention to the things that are uncomfortable, the spiritual and the emotional. It is not a deal where you've got to get up in front of your people every day and bear your soul. And like you said, hey, is everybody okay? Everybody okay today?

Timmy: Yeah. They'll run screaming.

Eric: Yeah, because that's not what they want. Right. Um, I'm finding in our interactions that it really is just a basic level of human empathy. Um, I really don't want you to solve my problem. It'd be great if you would maybe just pay attention and listen for a minute. Just say, you know, kind of communicate, I see you.

Timmy: Yeah, right. That's it. Sometimes it's just enough to notice.

Eric: Yeah, right. Um, because it's really ironic. I'm in a session this past week and this discussion of, oh, I've got to do this and we're busy. We've got all these things, we got these projects. It's just like reading out the litany that lit me. You know what I'm thinking to myself, okay, how many of us are really that busy that we can't slow down enough to say, hey, Timmy, uh, I don't want to go where you don't want me to go, but are you doing all right? As I say, that took, what, 5 seconds? Now, unless you're in part of the negotiations for the Iran nuclear deal, maybe, just maybe, you've got 510 seconds to just express just that.

Timmy: Right.

Eric: Um, obviously in the world that you ran, you guys were moving pretty quickly. There's a lot going on. I'm m going to say, what was your go to, but what made you stop? I mean, obviously in the beginning, maybe it was easier, but what was your go to? Hey, I'm going to slow down.

Timmy: Because if I didn't, then I wouldn't have the opportunity to talk with this person. Um, and I've found over time, um, that often people want to do exactly this in their heart of hearts. They want to connect with other humans in a deeper way. But one or two times or maybe ten times, they actually asked and then someone actually shared and then they didn't know what to do with it. M. And the level of disappointment that comes on the other side of not being able to go to that place with that person can be unbearable because you want I mean, as a human being, we want to be helpful to others because we can imagine ourselves in that space or we're so shut off from that, uh, that we can't imagine ourselves in that space. And so we gird ourselves up with all these boxes so that we can protect ourselves from being in that space, which then, going back to the original point, you don't want to ask that question. Because if you've got that box around you, if you find out that there's a hole in your box and the air starts getting in or the sunshine starts getting in, it looks scary because you've been in this box for so long, that is nice and dark, and it's exactly the way you want it, and it's perfectly constructed for you at this moment.

Eric: Um, you obviously know my background prior to this entrepreneur journey. And when I look back on my corporate America life, I think it was really motivated by trying to outrun my dad. And I'm saying that from the perspective to me that in the role that I had, I had multiple direct reports with another layer, the typical corporate, uh, thing. And I think about how much you miss it'd be easy for me to look past you when I'm in a race with my dad and someone could say, I'm talking about all that was in my head, all the things that happened to me when I was a kid that I needed to address. And I convinced myself that this race with my dad, if I could outrun him then and you never think about when you're running that, hey, you know, you missed an opportunity to talk to Susan, you missed an opportunity to talk to Timmy. You missed an opportunity to talk to Brett. If, uh, you would have said that to me back then, I said, that's not important. What's important is I've got to outrun him. And the ironic thing is that eventually, when the race is called and eventually there's always going to be that always you're left with that was just futile. I can't outrun my but at the time when you were like, yes, I've got to. And I sometimes wonder jimmy and my situation could be totally different than others. I get it. There's all kinds of dynamics here. But when you talk about yourself as a human being that, um, says, I haven't forgotten that I'm a human being.

Timmy: Yes.

Eric: Because it's just subtle. And where I'm going with this as well, the value system, right. The intellectual side rewards us with achievements, titles, money, all these things, right. And quite frankly, at the end of the day, most of the conversations, whether you're in media, social media or whatever, it's around, I achieved, I won, I obtained the Curated Life. The Curated life. Oh, my gosh. That's the title. Brett the curated life. Exactly. Timmy that's what I'm talking about. So if that approaches the thing to do, the approach to take, well, then I leave my emotional and my spiritual behind. So when Timmy crosses my paths in the hall, I don't want to go there because I have a feeling he's going to want to talk.

Timmy: Okay.

Eric: I'm going to keep going this way. Or if I'm forced to interact with you, I'm going to do it in the quickest way possible so that I can move on.

Timmy: Hi, how are you doing? Oh, good, and you? Good. Yeah. Okay, great.

Eric: Exactly. Rents and repeat.

Timmy: Have a good day.

Eric: Rents and repeat. Right. Um, so if somebody who is out there listening, and they may very well be, and by the way, audience, we will give Timmy's contact information, I would highly recommend reaching out to him. Just from my own experience, and it's been good. So if somebody reached out to you and said, okay, I get what you're saying, but I don't know how to do that, what would you tell them to do? What would be one of the first things you might tell them to do? Because I don't want to limit it. Just one thing.

Timmy: Know thyself first. How else are you going to be helpful to anybody else in any of their situations if you aren't willing to explore your own self?

Eric: So could that be potentially. That if you had met me 20 years ago and I said. Timmy. I got this deal. I'm racing. I'm trying to outrun my dad. I would have had someone that might have said. Well. Have you thought about or what makes you want I mean. Is that kind of where you're going with that one way.

Timmy: To know that you're in a race with your dad and to admit it to an audience and to admit. M. It just between you and me. Which is in a larger audience. Too. Now that it's right.

Eric: Uh.

Timmy: Is in and of itself. Knowing thyself. Um. And it's only the tip of the iceberg.

Eric: Exactly.

Timmy: I mean, there's so much stuff underneath that. Um, and I have to admit that, um, you, uh, bringing this up helps, uh, me to say to a larger audience that, uh, i, too, was in that same boat. That to some degree, maybe to a large degree, uh, raising Canes, Ohio, was built in competition with my father, who never asked to be in competition with me, who did nothing but want to support me. Um, and yet I tried to sweep them to the side, um, and make, uh, it my own thing. Um, and anytime someone brought up Timmy or you and your dad's business or any of those types of things, um, it was, um, like somebody was poking a hole in my box. Uh, and this constructed theory that I had, uh, around what life was like, um, and it wasn't until after it was over that I started to realize, uh, what I'm sharing with you right now. Wow.

Eric: I, um, appreciate that, um, your willingness to go there, because, um, um, I.

Timmy: Know that didn't answer your question.

Eric: No, but that's good. Well, it's good and it's bad. It's bad that you didn't answer the question, but you still have a chance to. But it's good because that kind of takes me to this place of, um it's almost like running when we're running out of time. Right. When you feel like you're running out of time, it kind of spurs motive, urgency.

Timmy: Right.

Eric: Um, and there's a lot of wisdom and learning from your past experiences. And, okay, I learned from that. I'm going to do this. But I think, man, there's still something inherently great to be able to go. I can relate to what Eric and Timmy said. I'm in that place, and Timmy maybe they're in that place where I haven't been wanting to talk about it. I would never but I see it. And maybe okay, you know me. I'm an optimist. Right.

Timmy: Maybe eternal.

Eric: Eternal. Right. Maybe he says to his wife or her husband or spouse or partner his partner or whatever. I think I know why I haven't been into this anymore. Because, again, the idea of the self knowledge right. But let me, uh, let you answer that question. Okay? You mentioned about self knowledge as being, uh, maybe a starting point. Is there anything else that you would say, hey, here's another thing that you might want to consider doing or thinking about.

Timmy: Being okay with? Whatever the answer is on the other side of the question. And sometimes, if you haven't noticed in the hallways when you do kind of quickly brush by, the other person doesn't necessarily want to talk, um, or answers in the same way that you've answered. Right. But notice is probably the one word that I could say on repeat. Uh, notice in yourself first. Right. Because then you start diving in and noticing in yourself where those emotions are, which could lead you to the spiritual side. Uh, um, but notice when someone else answers, but there's something you can tell, you know, even if you're not completely in touch with your empathetic side of yourself, you can always notice that one little just the drop or the inflection point or how they answer the question, or good.

Eric: Right.

Timmy: And that's a little more obvious even than some or they don't even look at you in the eyeballs. Right. It's like they're kind of off to the side. Good. That might be an indicator that something else is going on, and that doesn't even mean they want to talk to you and you got to be the one that approaches, but that might allow you to then go somewhere else and find out that something is bugging them.

Eric: One, um, of our business, um, partners, and I think I mentioned this on a previous episode we were sitting down with an organization, uh, that said, what's your ideal customer? Looks like that atypical question. And we went through a litany of the typical things that fit our profile of what we want, what we're looking for. But he said something at the. Very end. That really it never left me. And we want to work with leaders that see their people. And I just sitting there, and I love it when it happens right. With him. Uh, it's happened with you before. It's happened with other people. Where I go, I'm in the middle of something that has to do with a certain subject, but this took me to a different place. It's like an out of body experience. It's like Eric, did you hear what he just said? I'm going. Yeah, that's it.

Timmy: That's it.

Eric: Because if someone and again, I get it, Timmy. We are on a journey, and we are where we are. If we've not been in, we haven't built the neural pathway to notice people. It just doesn't snap your finger and then you do. But there's something very powerful about, um, being that intentional and the return that comes from that, right?

Timmy: Yeah. And the crazy part is, some of them just wanted a freaking job. That's all they wanted.

Eric: Right.

Timmy: And so I was over here selling this, um, amazing culture, work experience, career pathing, developing people, know your future, know all this Grand Horizon type stuff. And someone and a lot of them just wanted a freaking job now. They wanted a safe work environment, and they wanted to go where they knew they were cared for. They just wanted to come be in the space and go home. That's it. Um, what I had to step back and realize is if I'm going to be allowing, of all things I needed to be allowing of people that weren't drinking the freaking Koolaid either. It at first pained me, and then I started realizing, wait, that is the accepting part. Um, allow for everyone to come in and have the experience they want to have. Some just want to come in, cook some chicken fingers, and go home. And others want a career path and move up and move in and have me ask them how they're doing. And I got to be real enough with myself to recognize which person is that person. And ever since there's this whole part of the Bell Curve, which is the majority of the organization that is somewhere on that spectrum.

Timmy: Okay. Which are two heavy hitters.

Eric: Yeah, two heavy hitters. And I've never been a fan of either one of them. All right, just full disclosure.

Timmy: Go for it.

Eric: But it was a testament to me as I listened to them, specifically Brunette Brown. And let me clarify, audience. When I say I wasn't a fan of them, that doesn't mean I thought ill of them. Um, no, or anything like that. It's just they didn't play the kind of chords that struck me. Right.

Timmy: A way to go to get outside from behind yourself and go, okay, let me listen to me.

Eric: Yeah, exactly. Because what she said and I'm still going, okay. Because we know thinking is hard. Thinking is hard. That's why America is so full of judgment, because we don't like it easier.

Timmy: To judge instead of thinking.

Eric: Um, I don't want to say my confidence, but maybe my applause for her went up because she was basically being transparent, saying, I think I had it wrong. I think it's more of this now. And for someone at that sort of the heavy hitter to say that publicly, it's a pretty strong one. Right.

Timmy: And with the size audience. The both of them have. Like.

Timmy: Right.

Eric: And in that moment, I was so angry, I just had to go, oh, wow. And then maybe we continue the conversation. What were you guys going into business about?

Timmy: Right.

Eric: And you never know. Maybe you go, yeah, that was the issue. And I go, you know what? I have a friend of mine that does that. Oh, really? You see where I'm going with that?

Timmy: I do. And the crazy part, to me of what you're talking about is what you didn't mention, which I think is most people's reaction, is, Wait a second. That person left because of me. I did something wrong. I looked at them wrong, or I asked them the wrong question or whatever. We don't then assume you went kindly because you got some empathy or otherwise, and you're kind of confident within yourself. Maybe that your three things that you shared with us are around other things that are logical conclusions, but often we put ourselves first as, oh, they're mad at me.

Eric: Yeah. And to that point, she also mentioned about one of the reasons that we don't like to believe people's stories is because it makes us uncomfortable.

Timmy: Yeah. And I thought, but why?

Eric: And there's there and lies. So I'm not going to give it away. Uh, and for the audience, um, I don't have the full interview, and I'll get with Brett to have something that points to it. I, uh, may have even mentioned it before in previous episodes. But this interview between Oprah and Bernard Brown is where I'm referencing, and I think about that, Timmy. Um, if that part of believing their story makes me uncomfortable as a leader and a leader of people, yes, I could see that as being a very large wall, uh, that could block my desire to pay attention, to notice, to see them. And I guess there's that plea in me that says, you know what? Um, they're not most people I've experienced are not looking for an endorsement. They're just looking for someone to listen.

Timmy: Yes.

Eric: Right. I think culturally, we sometimes we think that it's about, I've got to have answers for you. I've got to figure out how to.

Timmy: Fix this for you, especially we mails. Let me solve this problem. This looks like fun instead of just listening.

Eric: Yeah. All right, so I got to ask you something. Um, and this one has been on my mind for a while, and I've held this back from you just in our one on one conversations because I knew you were in the middle of it, and that is transitions. Um, certainly I want to ask you, um, when I think about when the merger happened, and you are no longer raising Keynes of Ohio, but now it was going into the corporate entity, um, the transition of you kind of moving out and aside, maybe you've had other transitions that prepared you for that, maybe not. But can you talk a little bit about how you have navigated the transition? And I know there is good, bad, and ugly, because, uh, anybody that's really, truly been aware of the transition that they're in, it has all of those elements. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Timmy: Um, a lot of how I've navigated is, uh, by asking, I mean, we're going all the way back to the beginning of this, uh, my network. Um, and, um, I cast about asking, uh, everyone else, uh, what my next was, um, and sought advice and counsel and all of that kind of stuff. Uh, the number one person that I forgot, uh, to ask is my wife. And so, finally one morning, it dawned on me, like, what a dumb dumb, right? Like, the person that's so important to me and she to eye and I to her and everything else that I didn't ask her. Um, and finally I did, and she said, um, well, uh, not to be too morbid, but, uh, on your deathbed, you look back on these last decades, uh, after the transition, and what would you look back and regret not doing? Instantaneously? The one word that popped into my head was teach. Um, I'll rewind a little bit and answer your question in a little bit of a different way. Um, I got advice as I was casting about, um, uh, and.

Eric: Someone, uh.

Eric: Wow.

Timmy: Uh, I'm not sure this is answering your question, I'm realizing now, but, uh.

Eric: It'S what you did.

Timmy: But these are the things that I did in order to try to resolve. I was almost in the stages of grief, um, and, uh, early on, it was denial and all of these kinds of things, because I'm not sure any of this happened within the time frame that I would have wanted. In fact, I know that that's the case.

Eric: Right.

Timmy: Um, but even if you have it happen exactly when you want it to happen, and it all happens just well and dandy and fine, and you're pleased with the outcome, um, in any transition, there is a loss of something, and we don't know in that moment what the gain is. And we have to experience, uh, this is what I'm finding. We have to experience the loss in its entirety in order to understand, and then to mourn the loss, let it go, in order to open ourselves up for whatever the gain is. And we don't know what that gain is until possibly decades later, when we look back and realize, oh, this is where that was all heading.

Eric: You make a great point, um, and it's certainly not in the same realm, but, um uh, my oldest daughter, and, um, she graduates from college. She moves back home for a period of time as she's looking for her first job. Right. First careers move. And, um, we were butting heads pretty heavily. And some of that butting ahead made sense because she hadn't been living at home for a while.

Timmy: Yeah.

Eric: Um, but some of it was just silly, trivial things. And, um I'm not sure if I've shared this with the audience before, but I, um, was doing a session with a group, and we were talking about emotional, uh, literacy, understanding, um, what that emotion is, what does it mean, what is it telling you all of this kind of thing. And there was a brief period of, hey, if you have any questions, you can feel free to raise your hand type deal. And this one lady raises her hand, says, what do you do if your family just annoys you? Of course, at that time, the bell is going off like, I'm in your tribe. I know what that's all about. I'm right in the midst of it. And she says, oh, but don't misunderstand me. I love my family. Um, they're great and all, but, man, sometimes it's just, um I feel bad at saying this, but it's like they get on my nerves, blah, blah. And I'm standing there after she finishes, and it was as if, um I consider it. Um, and you know me, Timmy, when I say this, it was as if God said, see, Eric, you want to be the dad of ten years ago, and you don't want to let go.

Timmy: No.

Eric: That was the center, uh, of the issue. Yes. So all my anger, my frustration, and the butting of heads was trying to get my attention to it's time to let go. It's time to discover what the new father is going to look like right now. Here's my point. Within that, I couldn't tell you what the new father was going to be. Uh, I couldn't tell you how the circumstances and I think that's why I'm hearing you say this about this is what you did, because this is not this. Hey, uh, let's tell the audience this is how you handle a transition.

Timmy: Yeah, I don't know. And I'm still handy, right?

Eric: I will tell you, I know, for me, the idea of being open is truly advice I'm throwing out to everyone. Be open.

Timmy: Yeah.

Eric: So if being open means that you drove to 44 stores and you're only on the parking lot, and then you realize, boy, I should have gone in, and then, oh, I forgot to ask my wife, but then I did. Make all the mistakes. You need to bump your head. Do all of that, but be there.

Timmy: So, if I may add one more thing to being open yes. Uh, rewinding a smidge. Um, I'm freaking out about something. I don't even remember what it was. Might be death, and it's not even my own. Like something else was happening. This was a couple of years ago, and, uh, I, uh, walk in to my dad, and I'm just sharing this. I kind of have this outpouring of things, like, uh, this is happening and that's happening and all these other things, and I'm really worried about this. And he stops me and he looks me dead in the eyes. And it's a similar moment to you where it was like a, uh, complete opening of everything. And he said, Timmy, find comfort in the unknowing. Uh, at the time, I was resistant to the information.

Eric: Right?

Timmy: At the time, I was like, oh, no, there's an answer, and I got to solve it. And this is a thing I got to solve and find comfort in the unknowing. Who does he think all this stuff is running through my head, right? And now, a bunch of years later, it's still in there. You got to be open. But being open might not be enough. You got to be comfortable, or at least as comfortable as you can be in the unknowing of whatever is coming.

Eric: Yeah. And I think that kind of goes to, uh, the other thing that really, um, is maybe veiled around this is that it keeps showing up.

Timmy: Yeah.

Eric: Those are the people I really admire in my past present, are those that they may be making tons of mistakes, but when it's time to play, they're there. They just keep showing up.

Timmy: Yeah. Almost the, uh, Rudy Rudigers, um, from, uh, Notre Dame. Right. I mean, they're just five nothing, 100 and nothing. And they're just constantly on the field getting it done. And that doesn't even mean you got to work hard. You just got to show up.

Eric: Yeah. Um.

Timmy: 99% of my student experience wasn't, uh, necessarily writing the A, uh, paper, uh, the A plus paper that led me to future success. Uh, frankly, it was just making sure that I rolled out of bed and got to class. Seriously.

Eric: Well said.

Timmy: Right?

Eric: Well said. Yeah. Timmy, what's exciting in your world? What are you excited about? What are you working on that the world should know about via the Spirit of EQ podcast?

Timmy: So, um, uh, I am still exploring, um, I'm still experimenting. I'm still um, uh, trying to figure out what is, uh, next. Uh, I still have responsibilities, um, so we still have land, uh, that we hold and things like that. I'm business partners, uh, with a couple of great business, uh, partners, uh, and we are, uh, building an organization. But my role in that organization is more, ah, coach and kind, um, of advisor than it is active operator, uh, uh, day to day. Um, that was what it was. But now, again, a transition, uh, in my mentality around, uh, what my role is. So, um, with that, it opens me up to a lot of time and the ability to explore, uh, what I want to be doing. Um, and going back to that thought, um, that kind of came, uh, from somewhere. When my wife, uh, asked me, uh, what I wanted to do, uh, with the rest of my life.

Eric: Teach, um.

Timmy: Was what showed up in reality, what I think is happening is more coach. And I don't mean sports coach, I mean business ownership coaching. M. Um, I have had a, uh, hell of an experience. Am I allowed to say hell?

Eric: You are.

Timmy: I just said it twice.

Eric: You should have heard her last episode. I referenced somebody well, we get emails and text messages.

Timmy: How dare you? Yeah, um, um, I think where I'm headed is coaching. Um, and I just have this dearth of experience and frankly, when I graduated college with an English major, I thought, oh man, I'm uh, going to go get my PhD first, my masters, I'm going to teach English in, uh, college for the rest of my life. Where the leather patches on my jacket and all that kind of stuff, the plaid jacket. Um, and to some degree I still have some of that desire. But I think with my experience now, um, and approach to the world, I am enjoying coaching, uh, but not just for profit businesses. I also am finding, um, that nonprofit, uh, leaders, uh, and people in that realm are, ah, also some ones that are attracted to me and me to them. And um, I find that I'm helpful as they try to figure out what but it's not about business coaching, because that's the funny part about all of what we've been talking about. When you leave the person out of the business, you're only getting a part of the person because the person that's showing up isn't the one that walks through the door. And they've left their stuff at the door, which everybody wants to have happen. But that's not how people show up. And if you act like they're not bringing that stuff or you tell them time and again to just leave it at the door, then they're not going to be their whole person at the office. They're not going to be their whole person that's working with you. Because if you can come in and address the whole person that's there, you're going to get so much more out of them. And so, uh, when I'm coaching someone, I'm coaching them towards their dreams and what they want to have happen. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's about their nonprofit or for profit work or what they're actually trying to get accomplished. It means all of whatever they want out of life. Because the business and the nonprofit is really ultimately just there to serve what they really want to do with the entirety of their lives, whether they want to make an impact or otherwise.

Eric: You're mentioning something that I think is, um, we may have spoken about this just in one of our times, uh, together, um, one on one, um, this idea of our cultural, um, dressing we put on entrepreneurism and business ownership. So much emphasis on achievement. And are you now at this level? And have you hired? And all this again, it's like a football game, like, uh, scores. Where are you at? And I remember saying to you, I know in my early days of entrepreneurism, I could have just used a good solid dose of reality. And certainly, I would have certainly preferred that whoever was going to give that to me, to give it to me in a loving way.

Timmy: Right.

Eric: So that I can understand that. Don't get yourself maybe thinking that this is going to be some glamorous ride. There are some entrepreneurs where it has some elements of that.

Timmy: Yes.

Eric: But my gut is, Timmy, even if you talk to Elon Musk, he's got a lot of stories about their times where I wonder, do I really want to be doing this?

Timmy: Especially if you talk to Elon Musk. Because what I've found and now my experience is these things that we think we are driving after to achieve, the things that we think we want, they turn to dust in our mouths once we've consumed them. And so what we found over time, or what I'm finding, uh, is that it's not the achievement itself. I feel remorseful that in the moment. So while I was building the business, what I always wanted was the moment when it was over, because then, uh, everybody would have achieved and I would have achieved what I was hoping to accomplish. What I found out after the fact on the other side of it, is that everything I ever wanted was the stuff that I was already experiencing.

Eric: On that note, Timmy, as we come to a close, I'm going to ask you if you will come back for a part two episode, because I just wish we had more time, because that's a, um, money one. And that's where I think we need to leave this conversation. Would you come back?

Timmy: Yes.

Eric: He said yes. I got it.

Timmy: You asked me right on there.

Eric: Have we had a note? Yes. I think we've got a great streak, everyone. We really do appreciate you tuning in. And as always, we look forward to being with you the next time. Take care. Bye.