Peace in our Time (Israel-Palestine Conflict Part 2)

27th January 2024 • Moderate Party • Moderate Party

**Transcripts are automatically generated, we apologize for any errors**

Hey there guys, welcome to moderate party. I'm your host, Hillary Lombard. And today we are going to continue our exploration of the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

In our last episode, we looked at nationalism and the role that it played in creating a statehood movement for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. And we dove headfirst into the origins of the conflict. So in today's episode, we're going to look at the peace process and how it ultimately leads to the war that's being fought today. Pardon the tasteless comparison, but it's kind of like a vendor's age of Ultron. The peace process starts out really optimistic and hopeful.

I see a suit of armor around the world. Peace in our time. Imagine that

Then it's quickly complicated and corrupted.

Had to kill the other guy. Wouldn't have been my first call. But, down in the real world, we're faced with ugly choices.

And ultimately it ends up creating the very thing that it sought out to prevent.

You want to protect the world, but you don't want it to change. There's only one path to peace. The Avengers extinction.

When I said it, you didn't know where I was headed, but by the end of this episode, you'd be like, Hmm. Apt comparison. I'm kidding. Kind of, today's episode is also a study of power and peace.

And what leaders have done for one and given up for the other.

This episode's a long one. So put your headphones in, buckle up and let's get started.

ressive victory in the war of: 1967

There's a renewed religious revival. People are having like music festivals. The vibe is like when Thor gets his hammer back because he's finally worthy.

s to an end pretty quickly in: 1973

Because while their victory Is fueling a bit of a Renaissance for them vibe wise.

on Egypt and Syria. Between: 1968

So in: 1973

It is an all out war. That's how Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan describes an invasion of the Golan Heights and the east bank of the Suez by Syria and Egypt. The surprise attacks came early this morning, in the air and on the ground.

And like, listen. Regardless of the conflict, whether you're the good guy, the bad guy, the middle guy. I don't care. I just think it's so messed up to wage an attack on a holiday. Let alone a religious holiday. And it's like, there's so many other days in the year. Could you just fucking chill?

Just on this day, just fucking chill. And I don't know, it just feels so very below the belt to go for somebody on their holy day. Like. I guess this is more of a lament for just like. I don't even know world history as a whole, but I I'm just, it's shitty guys. It's just shitty.

Anyway. It's Yom Kippor: 1973

And now their goal is just to hit Israel hard enough to force them to the negotiating table. And in that goal, they do succeed well. Israel does eventually win out and deal a pretty devastating defeat once again, to Egypt and Syria. The war last three weeks. And there's the bloodiest that Israel has seen so far since it became a country. Over 2,500 Israelis are killed in action and 7,000 are injured it rattles them. Like it really shakes them. It completely crushes their sense of invincibility. One thing that really hits me. And I think it's worth dwelling on here. Is that when Israel eventually does go to the negotiating table, the only thing that's really looking for is acknowledgement of its right to exist.

I think that that's pretty sad.

Basically Israel gets a hell of a lot of land back and all that Egypt has to do is say like, yeah, Israel, I see you.

d that they won in the war of: 1967

And they get it. Egypt is the first Arab country to normalize relations with Israel. And while that acknowledgement is a victory, it does very little to suit Israel's new found sense of vulnerability and powerlessness. Something that's only compounded by a wave of terrorism being carried out by Palestinian militants at the same time.

The peace of what has, what have been called the serene Olympics was shattered just before dawn this morning when Arab terrorists armed with submachine guns, faces blackened, climbed the fence, went to the headquarters of the Israeli team, and immediately killed one man, Moshe Weinberg, a coach, two shots in the head, one in the stomach. They've been holding 14 others hostage since then. And the latest report is that one more has been killed.

During the seventies, a Palestinian militant group called black September works with neo-Nazis in Germany. To massacre the Israeli Olympic team.

In: 1974

Another 76 people.

In: 1976

47 hostages aboard that Air France jet hijacked last Sunday were freed today, but they stood nervously holding machine guns on the remaining 209.

Israel that emerges from the: 1970

After the war of: 1967

250,000 people. It's a lot of people, but the majority of Palestinians are not displaced. They remained in Israeli run refugee camps.

And while they're living in those refugee camps, they're watching a new group of energized religious extremists start demolishing their homes and replacing them with new Israeli homes.

used to belong to Syria. By: 1973

nvestment into Israel between: 1948

hem either. After the war of: 1967

All of a sudden the old Taylor could not come to the phone. While the Palestinians are in these refugee camps. Their Arab neighbors do very little for them. Egypt and Syria try to take back their land, but that's a self-serving objective now you can see how they would start to feel like they had been abandoned by the world.

It's like you're suffering and nobody seems to give a shit.

Oh, everyone is talking about the prospects of peace in the Middle East. Kissinger, Dr. Kissinger had been there for five times. Talking about peace. He never mentioned the Palestinians. Well, this frustrates us all. I mean, I am a Palestinian. I'm here, I'm talking to you. And I'm thinking about the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps. Everyone is discussing peace and nobody is mentioning the Palestinians. The only mention we have is a solution for the refugee problem. Alright, we are not a refugee problem. We are a Palestinian people. People like all other peoples in the Middle East.

We have our rights, legitimate rights, exactly like all legitimate rights of all people. We should go back to that country, to our country in which we were born. This is our C. Nobody is listening to us. Nobody is caring about us.

The only advocate or representative that the Palestinian people have at this point. Is the Palestinian liberation organization. The PLO. After the Yom Kippur war. The UN declares, the Palestinian liberation organization, the official voice and representative of the Palestinian people. But the problem is that the Palestinian liberation organization isn't even in Palestine. Yasser Arafat. The leader of the PLO I had been living abroad for years. First in Jordan, before he was kicked out for clashing with the government. And then in Lebanon, before he was kicked out for clashing with the government. And then finally in Tenicia. A country with a comparatively small Palestinian population located pretty far away from the Palestinian region and the people that the PLO is supposed to represent.

within the population. And by: 1987

The Palestinian resistance during this period is actually quite remarkable. When the Israeli occupying forces impose long running curfews on towns and cities. They start running underground universities, schools, clinics, all of it.

They start boycotting Israeli products and businesses, and actually start to create a national economy fueled by homegrown goods.

It's a real Testament to the human spirit. And what you can achieve under duress. But the Intifada takes its toll. The Palestinian civilians, many of them children are meeting armed Israeli soldiers with nothing more than sticks and stones.

These rallies for their part, do not adopt a similar policy of nonviolence.

The Palestinian protestors are met by a newly militarized Israel led by Yitzhak Rabin. These Railey defense minister. Who's soon to become prime minister.

He's the man that devised a broken bone policy towards the Palestinian protesters.

The policy urge that breaking bones was more efficient than arrests because.

Quote. This style, breaking demonstrators bones is far more efficient than arrestment for an arrested person would spend 18 days in prison. And then you would go out onto the streets, throwing stones and demonstrating. Whereas if the soldier broke both of his hands, Then he won't be able to go onto the streets at least for one and a half months afterwards. End quote.

These Railey responds to Palestinian nonviolent protest during this period is horrible, brutal, and completely inexcusable. What Makes the situation even worse? Is that the Israelis, aren't the only ones that are reacting poorly to the first Intifada.

The PLS relevance and the relevance of their leader. Yasser Arafat. Was starting to wane. Mostly due to the fact that even though they were the voice of the Palestinians, they hadn't lived with the Palestinians for years. How loyal can you be with somebody that hasn't stopped buying a decade?

The farther that they get from the Palestinian refugees, the farther they get from power. Challengers begin to emerge. And the PLS group on Palestinian affairs starts to weaken. The first Intifada puts all of this in stunning clarity because it wasn't planned or anticipated by the PLO, all the organization, the coordination, the support mechanisms, the leadership, all of that happened without the PLO. Which signals they're weakening control over Palestinian politics. And while the leaders of the first Intifada, many of them women side note

did pay allegiance to the PLO and continue to regard it as the legitimate leader of their people. The fact that they emerged at all from outside of that organization. I was a threat to Arafat and to the PLS legitimacy.

And they aren't the only ones threatening Arafat's power. Do you ever last episode, how I told you that when Arab nationalism falls, Islamic fundamentalism grows to take its place?

Well, at this point, Islamic fundamentalism is starting to gain a lot of popularity within the Palestinian people.

And a terrorist group emerges representing that philosophy. Tomas.

Hamas launches a few days after the outbreak of the first Intifada. And they don't really organize in huge numbers right away, but they do start to tap into a growing trend of Islamic fundamentalism. That's gained traction after the collapse of Arab nationalism.

But what's important here is that Hamas refuses to join the PLL. And in doing so they directly challenged the legitimacy of the PLS claim to being the sole Palestinian representation.

So when the first Intifada breaks out, Arafat finds himself in a desperate situation. The Palestinians are moving on from him. They're moving on from the PLO they found local leaders to help lead a resistance and their Hamas curious. And RFI is not ready or willing to accept that. So it quickly becomes clear to him that his only path. Is to strike a direct deal with Israel and to shore up his relevance as the only credible path for the Palestinians toward peace.

These are the factors that ultimately lead Yasser Arafat to the negotiating table. Opposite it's awkward bean. You remember him? Right?

The sweetheart behind that broken bone policy.

Rubina's a complicated and incredible leader. He makes a name for himself as a military general. And he like many in his day believed that Israel would only know peace if it became too strong to eliminate.

And for his whole life, he thinks of the PLO as terrorists, liars, and bastards.

He actually becomes known for his iron fist military approach, basically, meaning this guy is known for being a hard-ass.

But after the first Intifada, something changes in him.

He says famously you can't rule by force over 1.5 million Palestinians, which is pretty remarkable for an Israeli leader to say at the time. I mean, it's pretty remarkable for an Israeli leader to say right now,

And at that point after the first Intifada, Rabin's heart turns towards peace.

And interestingly it's actually his reputation as a hard-ass military guy. That gives him the credibility necessary to negotiate towards peace with the Palestinians. The Israeli people give him more benefit of the doubt then they would give to other softer leaders.

And ravine does negotiate.

He pursues peace even to his own detriment. (OSLO SECTION) And all of these roads bring us to the Oslo Accords.

The Oslo Accords represent a historic breakthrough in the Israeli Palestinian conflict because they're the first time that there's a direct negotiation between the Israelis and the Palestinian liberation organization. These negotiations lead to mutual recognition from the Israelis and the Palestinians. But It also marks a commitment from both parties to the idea of a two-state solution. And the concept of land for peace. Where in return for additional territories from Israel, the Palestinians agree to crack down on terrorist groups within their borders.

The Accords also envisioned the creation of a Palestinian state for the very first time. Up to this point. As you might remember from last episode. Those lands. Weren't supposed to go to a country called Palestine. They were supposed to go to all of the Arab countries that surrounded Israel. So this is the first time that we're, we're putting pen to paper. Putting skin in the game. On trying to create a Palestinian state.

The Israelis for their part. Outline a phased withdrawal of some of their forces from parts of the west bank and the Gaza strip. Which would end Israeli occupation.

Finally the Oslo Accords establish a Palestinian authority. Which would be the governing body of Palestine. You'll hear the Palestinian authority and the PLO thrown around interchangeably. And the reason for that is that they are basically the same thing. Except that the PLO was a terrorist group and the Palestinian authority was their attempt at a rebrand focused on governing.

Think about it like Facebook and Mehta. Like it's the same. They just want us to call them something different because they did bad stuff in the past. Yasser Arafat was the leader of the PLO. And you bet your ass that he's the leader of the Palestinian authority.

But it is still a big deal that the Oslo Accords create a actual formal government. For the Palestinian people in the region of Palestine. It's a big achievement. Or it could be.

These negotiations result in one of the most famous photos of the last hundred years. It's a handshake between Yitzhak, Rabin and Yasser Arafat with president bill Clinton, beaming, ear to ear right behind them. As though the United States did anything at all to make this happen, which let me just say, we certainly did not. We literally were just the venue. For some reason they decided to negotiate the Accords in Oslo, Norway. But sign the actual document in Washington, DC. It's basically like when you go to a family dinner. And you're really getting along with a waiter. And you ask them to take a picture of you and your family. And you're like, oh, get in here. You you're our friend now. And in the moment it feels right.

But like when you look at it in like a month, or you may like who the fuck is this? That's basically this photo of Viet SOCRA bean. Yasser Arafat and bill Clinton playing the role of waiter.

The security of the Israeli people will be reconciled with the hopes of the Palestinian people. This brave gamble that the future can be better than the past must endure.

It sounds pretty great. Right? Everybody's really pleased, Rabin and Arafat actually win the Nobel prize for the Oslo Accords. It is monumental.

If I'm not painting an accurate picture of the optimism of the moment, just listen to Rabin's comments directly after signing the Oslo Accords.

We have no desire for revenge. We have no, we harbor no hatred towards you. We like you are people, people who want to build a home, to plant a tree, to love, live side by side with you in dignity, in empathy, as human beings, as free men. We are today giving peace a chance, and saying again to you, enough. Let us pray that a day will come when we all will say farewell to the

So there you have it.

We solved it. No more conflict in Israel and Palestine. Right. Wrong. So what happened? Why don't the Oslo accord solve the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

If you ask the Israelis, why the Oslo Accords fell apart? They'll say it's the Palestinians fault. If you ask the Palestinians, they'll say it's these Israelis.

But I think that the actual answer is way more complicated than that as it usually is. Think our first clue to kind of unraveling how this falls apart. Is looking at the motivations that led both sides there. The outcomes they wanted. And the reasons that they wanted them.

So we'll start with Yasser Arafat.

You remember? Before Oslo, he was in a real desperate place.

He was struggling for relevance with his own people. He'd been living in exile for way too long. Other groups were starting to rise and make the case that they would be a better voice for the Palestinians, that they could lead to peace and prosperity. Not Arafat, not the PLO.

Cracks were starting to show.

And Arafat had a lot to lose. He needed to shore that up. He needed to squash the competition. That's what he needed. That's the solution that he was looking for.

So hold onto that thought. And now look at what the Palestinians actually got out of the Oslo Accords.

So first. The Oslo Accords recognize the PLO as the sole voice for the Palestinians on the international stage. The soul voice.

Meaning that. If Hamas were to gain power or if a grassroots group were to grow up out of the Intifada and try to seize political power, they would not be recognized. Because the Oslo accord said that the PLO was the only voice. On the international stage. Who does that benefit?

It's not the Palestinian people.

It's Yasser Arafat.

The Oslo Accords create the Palestinian authority. An official governing body for Palestine.

Uh, government.

Just like ours, maybe a president, maybe a prime minister. I don't know, but who gets to fill that role? That prime minister president role. Oh, it's Yasser Arafat.

The also records do cement, the commitment to the idea of a two-state solution. And they solidify the idea that the Palestinians have a right to a state. That benefits, the Palestinian people. Sure.

But every other interest that the Palestinians had that they wanted out of that negotiation, they did not get instead, the Oslo Accords just promise that both sides will continue to negotiate on those issues.

Meaning that almost every victory for the Palestinians and the Oslo Accords. Doesn't do a lot for the people of Palestine, but it sure as hell does a lot for Yasser Arafat.

So I think that one of the reasons the Oslo Accords fall apart, Is because they weren't signed in a commitment to peace to begin with. At least not exclusively. There's no denying that Yasser Arafat.

Did pursue peace. He did. I'm not denying that Yasser Arafat was there pursuing peace. And that, that was a brave thing to do.

But peace was not his exclusive motivation. And I'm not even sure if it was his primary one. His primary motivation was power.

The other factor, the leads to the collapse of the Oslo Accords is extremism.

While the Oslo Accords are being negotiated and there's two sets of them. Oslo one and Oslo two. There's a tension that exists right below the surface of both populations. On the Palestinian side, Hamas really starts to cut their teeth in opposition to the Oslo Accords.

And they carry out a bombing campaign. To undermine the Oslo courts.

And to some degree it works. And it's riling up parts of the Israeli population that are enraged by this violence.

They're looking at the situation and they're thinking that. Their site is seeking peace and they're only being met with violence. They look to their leaders and they think, how could you do this? How could you surrender the land? That's our incesteral right. To these people that would only seek to do us harm.

That's the perspective of a growing undercurrent in the Israeli population.

And the Palestinians are equally divided. On the one hand Oslo gives them the first real glimpse of what peace could look like. And a lot of them are optimistic about that. But a lot of them aren't. They're cynical, they think, how do you break bread with your occupier? How could you do that? How could you ever trust them to make peace with us?

When all that they've ever done is make war.

And what's dangerous about that is that when people are divided, extremists rise always look at what's happening in our country right now. So that's exactly what happens in Israel and Palestine.

The extreme is rise. Hamas carries out 12 suicide bombings over two years.

Israeli extremists are active to, particularly those that are living in settlements. There's a horrific example of an American born settler that opens fire on Palestinians, praying during Ramadan. He kills 29 people and wounds 125 more.

And like, guys, I just want to say it again, like stop attacking people on holy days. Like, I would love it if you wouldn't attack them at all. But if you must just like, can we avoid holy days and holidays for fuck's sake?

Anyway, the subtler attack. It's not an anomaly. Settler violence is on the rise. And it's reinforcing this idea to the Palestinians that the Israelis will never stop. They'll just keep pushing and growing until the Palestinians are all been erased or eradicated.

g peace. Until a dark day in: 1995

Truly shocking news from the Middle East tonight. Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin has been assassinated. Evening spent dreaming of peace.

into a national nightmare.

Israel, a nation in shock, grieves for its murdered leader, Yitzhak Rabin. Hundreds of thousands have been queuing to pay a final tribute to the man who said he was ready to take risks for peace

The world has lost one of its greatest men, a warrior for his nation's freedom, and now a martyr for his nation's peace. To the people of Israel, I want you to know that the hearts and prayers of all Americans are with you. Just as America has stood by you in moments of crisis and triumph, So now we all stand by you in this moment of grieving and loss.

In: 1976

The job of recovering the hostages fell on the Israeli special forces. Including Yoni Netanyahu. And while it was one of the most successful counter-terrorism operations in history. It would still leave a permanent scar on the Netanyahu family. Yoni Netanyahu was the only casualty from that day. A warrior philosopher. He was a loss, not just to his family, but to the people of Israel who looked up to him.

When Benjamin Netanyahu also known as BB got the call. He immediately drove seven hours to his parents' house to deliver the news in person.

the only thing I could think of at that point was that I didn't want the news to reach my parents through the, uh, through the media.

My father was teaching at Cornell University at that time, and I was in Boston in seven hours of, uh, Indescribable anguish. I made my way to, uh, Ithaca, New York. Walked up the path to my parent's house. There was a big, glazed window in the front of the house and I could see my father marching back and forth,

and all of a sudden he looked at me and he saw me and he said In a look of surprise he said Bibi, what are you doing here? And he saw my face and he understood immediately and he let out a cry like a wounded animal and Then I heard my mother scream and Believe it or not. That was actually worse than hearing about Yoni's death. It was like a second death

Before Yannis death, BB had shown a strong interest in economics and business. He was working in a management consulting firm in the United States. A fun fact is that Mitt Romney was his coworker.

But Yoni's death breaks. Bebe's heart irrevocably. And he's changed forever as a result.

I had Lost my sense of taste. I Didn't know if I could live. I didn't know how I would live

He returns to Israel to run the Jonathan Netanyahu anti-terror Institute.

And never really leaves again. Slowly has focused on terrorism. And his patriotism towards the nation of Israel allows him to climb the ranks of the right wing Likud party. Netanyahu and the Likud party staunchly opposed the Oslo Accords. And they kind of think of Rabine as a trader. He had broken with a bipartisan policy that blocks negotiations with the PLO. And they accused him of abandoning 120,000 settlers. That were occupying land. He was negotiating away. By negotiating with the people that wanted to exterminate Israel,

and the terrorist attacks being carried out by Hamas during the same period only make things worse. After an attack kills 21 Israeli civilians, Netanyahu accuses. Rabine. Of choosing to favor Arafat and the people of Gaza over the security of the Israeli people. Religious extremists hate Rabine because they think that he's willing to give up their ancestral holy land. Land given to the Jews by God. They also view him as an enemy to the Jews because he would turn his back on the Jewish settlers that were living in that holy land.

Rabbis in the west bank start arguing that it's actually just to kill ravine under Jewish religious law, because he's a trader to the Israelis.

holding many. By October of: 1995

But on that October night in: 1995

On November 4th, there's supposed to be a counter protest, a rally for peace and ravine actually consider staying home. Because he's afraid that if he goes, he might be humiliated by how low the turnout is, especially if you compare it to the size of the right wing demonstrations against him. But he's wrong. The turnout is enormous. A hundred thousand Israelis coming out to support Rabine. And the piece that he pursues. Bigger than anything that Netanyahu and the anti Oslo group has put together.

It starts as a night of solidarity, but it ends with a tragedy that will set both Israel and Palestine down a terrible, terrible path.

Rubina's murdered by an Israeli extremist who kills him to kill the peace process that he represents. And in many ways he succeeds. The peace process is never the same.

The peace process starts to stall almost immediately. Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud party, wind power in the next election. And BB serves his first term as prime minister.

It's a groundbreaking election.

Netanyahu becomes Israel's youngest prime minister and the first to be directly elected. And to his credit, once he takes power, he doesn't go back on the Oslo Accords, even though he opposed them. Since they were signed by the prior administration. He doesn't go back. But he does slow roll them. Rabine had planned to make several major concessions upfront to the Palestinians as a show of good faith, but Netanyahu trust the Palestinians a lot less.

So he wants to make the implementation more gradual. Insisting that every act of Goodwill from the Israelis is met by a show of Goodwill from the Palestinians one for one. But these delays allow more time for doubt to start creeping in. Eventually the peace process, stalls political infighting, ensues, and Netanyahu, and the Likud party are soundly defeated by a left-leaning coalition led by a who'd Barak.

At this point, the people of Israel made their feelings clear when they voted for a leader that would pursue peace with the Palestinians. They wanted peace and Barack was going to try and give it to them. And luckily he actually found a dedicated partner in us, president, bill Clinton. Who was determined to go from that guy awkwardly, standing in a famous picture.

That's not about him. To the president that negotiated peace between Israel and Palestine. To president Clinton's credit. He does more to salvage the peace process than any us president before or since. He hosted Arafat at the white house, a dozen times, something that was unheard of in prior administrations, he put pressure on nine Yahoo's hard-line government. He held a summit at camp David and ultimately negotiated the most favorable deal that the Palestinians have seen before, or since.

But let's start back at the camp. David summit.

The objective is to reach an agreement on the core issues that have fueled half a century of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. To state the task is to suggest the magnitude of the challenge. Behind the Israeli Palestinian conflict lie the most profound questions about beliefs, political identity, collective fate.

Etched in each side's mind are intense fears and emotions and a deep seated commitment to defend their people's interests. There are no easy answers, and certainly no painless ones. And therefore, there is clearly no guarantee of success.

ed in the Arab Israeli war of: 1948

Because it would effectively create two Palestinian states and eliminate the only Jewish state.

Palestinians after the war of: 1948

The most generous that they've ever made, but from the Palestinian side, it doesn't even meet their minimum terms.

But still many are pushing Arafat to accept this deal because they've never received anything. Like it. At the time the Saudi prince Bandar said, if Arafat doesn't accept what's available now, it won't be a tragedy. It will be a crime but Arafat does reject the deal. Any offers? No counterproposal of his own president Clinton is furious and allegedly bangs on the table saying, you are leading your people and the region to a catastrophe

but it doesn't make a difference.

The next day, the Palestinians issue, a formal rejection and the summit is over. Now many experts debate whether or not Arafat should have taken the deal. But what is universally condemned is Arafat's decision not to issue a counter offer or negotiate at all.

But it gets worse. Arafat doesn't just leave the negotiations.

o Israeli provocation. But in: 2010

president Arafat instructed Hamas to carry out a number of military operations in the heart of the Jewish state. After he felt that his negotiations with the Israeli government had failed and quote.

And if you're like ma can't trust, Hamas, Arafat's widow actually corroborates this during an interview with Dubai TV, she says, quote,

He said to me, you should remain in Paris. I asked him why, and he said, Because I'm going to start an Intifada. They want me to betray the Palestinian cause they want me to give up on our principles and I will not do so.

I do not want Zelle was friends in the future to say that Yasser Arafat abandoned the Palestinian cause and principles. I might be martyred, but I shall bequeath our historic heritage to Zola. That's his daughter. And to the children of Palestine and quote.

But all of that won't come out for several more years.

So at this point, president Clinton. Is still trying to make a deal. He goes back to the drawing board and ultimately releases the Clinton parameters, which address key Palestinian concerns creates a Palestinian state. And requires more concessions from Israel on security, territory, and Jerusalem. And somehow he gets Barack to agree. President Clinton and prime minister Barak are both in the final months of their term and more determined than ever to make this deal. But still Arafat rejects the proposal again without issuing a counter proposal of any kind. The collapse of the Oslo Accords and the negotiations at camp David frustrate, the Israeli people. But the wave of violence that they experienced after the breakdown at camp David enrages them.

They vote Barack out of office and they haven't elected a peace seeking prime minister since. It's difficult to reconcile with the legacy of Yasser Arafat. There's no doubt though, without Arafat the Palestinian, cause wouldn't be as high profile as it is today. It would have faded and become a footnote in the memories of the birth of Israel.

He made the cause matter to the international community.

And Arafat does have the moral courage to negotiate with the at soccer bean. And assign the Oslo Accords, but he lacks the leadership and fortitude to implement them.

And to reconcile with what their implementation would mean for his people. Some say that he was a true believer that refused to compromise on the Palestinian position because he thought that it would be immoral. Others have speculated that he would rather abandon negotiations for statehood than make a deal that would force him to tell his people. They're not going back to their homes that they left in Israel. To understand Arafat. I think it's important to think about how he led and how he was built. Arafat built the PLO as an umbrella organization that represented a lot of different Palestinian groups. And he was able to preserve his leadership because he was basically the only guy that could hold all of these groups together.

And in doing that, he learned how to absorb rather than confront his opposition.

How to make sure that he always came out. Popular.

Arafat knew how to fight. He knew how to resist saying you how to survive. But I'm not sure that he knew how to lead or really how to govern. He was much more of a survivor than a leader. He refused to negotiate.

And when he was being blamed for the collapse of camp, David, he exploited violence and launching into FADA. Then he refused to try and contain it or deescalate it because it would've force him to confront Hamas and the militias within his own party. Arafat rejected. The Clinton parameters \]= that would have given Palestinians a state made up of 97% of the west bank and all of Gaza with compensation for the rest, plus a capital in east Jerusalem, including the surface of the temple Mount, but still Arafat rejects it.

I think part of it is that when all you've known as struggle, sometimes you can't accept peace. I think in many ways, Arafat is an extremist. There's no denying it. And peace just has no place for extremists. It just doesn't need them. I think Arafat would rather reject a deal than make himself irrelevant or do something so unpopular that he would risk the support of his people. It's a massive miscalculation and a historic mistake and one that has only brought further misery to Palestinians and Israelis alike.

And if you think I'm being unfair to Arafat here, there is something else that I'd like you to consider. He was a billionaire. Bro, what. I know. A team of American accountants that are actually hired by Arafat's finance ministry, determined that he was worth between one and $3 billion. Part of that wealth is locked up in a portfolio that's worth about a billion dollars.

And that portfolio is funded. By public funds like the Palestinian taxes, but it's not controlled by the Palestinian people. It's controlled by Arafat. None of this is public. And the billion dollar portfolio is only part of his wealth. He accumulated another billion with the help of the Israelis. That's right. Under the Oslo Accords is really agreed to collect sales tax on goods that are purchased by Palestinians in Israel. and then transfer those funds to the Palestinian treasury.

But they don't go to the treasury. The transfer to bank accounts that are managed by Yasser Arafat.

Because Arafat had argued that he needed walking around money to clean up Gaza.

But he doesn't do that. He used it to fund a patronage system that makes him indispensable to the Palestinian people. You basically go before him. And ask him for what you need, whether that be a job or a phone. And if he liked you, he'd give it to you. You know, like a mob boss. This guy was so rich that he paid his security forces, $20 million a month in cash. He gave his wife an allowance every month of a hundred thousand dollars out of the Palestinian treasury to live in Paris.

He also screwed over the Palestinians less directly by taking kickbacks from companies like the general petroleum corporation. That would basically buy gas from the Israelis, water it down with kerosene and then sell it back at an exorbitant price to the Palestinians. Defrauding them and ruining the engines of their car, but Arafat didn't do anything about it because he was getting paid.

And it's not just that.

When he supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein gave him a $50 million check.

this day. It's agregious. By: 2005

But it leaves a scar on the Israeli people. They're enraged that when they were seeking peace, they were met with violence. The Second Intifada is much bloodier than the first. Over a thousand Israelis are killed and thousands more severely injured.

2000 Palestinians also lose their life during this period. And 577 of them are killed by other Palestinians. By the end, Israeli prime minister, Sharon takes the unpopular step of evicting his own people and demolishing the settlement homes that they had built in Gaza. He pulls the military out. And formally ends Israel's military occupation of Gaza, which is a major goal of the Palestinians.

Government is in crisis over the Prime Minister's plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip. Ariel Sharon's own party has vetoed the move. But he's determined to push on

and for the very first time. The Palestinians find themselves able to govern without the presence of the Israeli military or Yasser Arafat who died one year prior.

And the Palestinians feel his loss almost immediately. Because for all of his faults and there are many. One thing that he did do successfully was hold various Palestinian groups together under the PLO, providing a unified front and giving them more political clout and power. He also somehow managed to keep Hamas somewhat at bay, but when he dies that falls apart. His political party Fatah has become wildly unpopular. And the Palestinian public's perception of their leaders began to shift slowly, but steadily away from idolizing them. To being really suspicious of them and kind of presenting them.

It wasn't a linear process. They always had to balance their skepticism for their leader's performance domestically against support for the same leaders. In their resistance to Israel. But ultimately it amounts to this major. Erosion in the trust that the Palestinian people have for their leaders.

Their credibility and their legitimacy. Begin to fade.

But Arafat manages to navigate this pretty well and maintain his own image among the Palestinians. It's due to a lot of factors. He's a founding father of the movement. He was inclusive. Ish. Like you could disagree with him and he wouldn't kill you. He would just deprive you of wealth. But he really is a man of his people

the authoritarianism. So in: 2006

and it's a shock because, you know, Uh, they're a terrorist group. And this creates immediate conflicts with the Fatah party that was used to being in control.

The two parties can not get along. They can't reach a power-sharing agreement and eventually factional fighting breaks out. Hundreds of people die. The Palestinian region is basically split in two with Hamas ruling over Gaza and Fatah ruling over the west bank. The political bifurcation of the Palestinian Territories divides the people and cuts any political power that they had in half.

Once a Mohs takes power. the Palestinian attitude is like, all right. You talked all this shit. Let's see if you can do better. And they can't or rather they don't

Hamas, can't govern.

And while their ability to provide services could at least initially be explained away by the isolation that's imposed on them by the international community. It's corruption, nepotism and authoritarianism are almost indistinguishable from the PLO and the PA's own pattern of governance. They suck at it. Just as much as Arafat.

Because governing is a skill. You can't run a government. Exactly. Like you'd run a business because it's fundamentally different. And you can't run the government the way you ran your terrorist group, because they're fundamentally different.

The Palestinians in Gaza become incredibly isolated. Many countries and aid organizations cut off aid to the Palestinians in Hamas controlled areas. And Israel stops thousands of Palestinian workers from entering the country, thus cutting off their source of income. Egypt and Israel have security concerns.

So they impose tighter restriction on the movements of the Palestinian people. And goods through the Gaza border. And the security concerns. Aren't bullshit. Israel thought that by ending its military occupation, demolishing settlements and leaving Gaza, the violence would decrease. But it actually increases under Hamas. Mortar and rocket fire from Gaza into Israel increases by 340%.

Hamas invest heavily in developing a network of tunnels under Gaza to store weapons, conceal their movements and carry out terror attacks. These a lot of child labor to build these tunnels and at least 160 kids die in the process.

They build these tunnels under schools, hospitals, and other civilian infrastructure using the civilians of Gaza as shields in the event of an attack. Not only that, but estimates put the cost of the Gaza tunnels between 30 and $90 million.

Some estimates have that number go up to 250 million.

% by: 2017

Meanwhile, Hamas is rich. It's military budget is between 103 hundred $50 million annually. They make 450 million a year from fees that they place on smuggled goods. They also have an investment portfolio with freaking real estate in it. Not to mention the money that is taken from international aid groups and charities that was meant for humanitarian aid.

nching rockets into Israel in: 2008

And after seven weeks,: 2000

In: 2018

And soon after some protesters start throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at the Israeli soldiers. Who respond with tear gas and eventually gunfire killing 183 Palestinians and injuring 6,000 more. A few months later, Hamas shoots hundreds of missiles into Israel and Israel responds with missile strikes on more than 50 targets in Gaza in 24 hours. Do you see the pattern? Violence begets violence. And it creates this doom loop of escalation.

Hamas is escalating and Israel is responding in kind these Railey people sought peace in the Oslo era and from their perspective, all they got for it was violence.

So they stopped focusing on peace and they start focusing on security and the use of force.

Benjamin Netanyahu returns to power. Branding himself as Mr. Security. Making the decision to put Israel security and prosperity over everything else.

I suppose people vote for me time and time again because they know.

That i'll protect israel and i'll tell you something else that they know barry Again, i'm not sure I put this in my book directly, but i'll say to you directly they know That I don't squander lives i've lost a person who was So dear to me and to my parents. I saw what they went through And I think of the mothers of israel who lose Their fallen sons and daughters, and I'm not an adventurer.

I use force when necessary, but I use it judiciously Because I know the cost of war. I've been through war. I've been through wars and battles and I've lost loved ones

mportant to note that between: 2009

And he doesn't reoccupied Gaza. And while Hamas is escalating, they're escalating their acts of terror. And terrorism drives fear. But not casualty counts.

And whether you like him or hate him, there's no denying. The Netanyahu was largely very effective. He transformed the Israeli economy and brought economic growth and stability. He dramatically expanded Israel's diplomatic footprint and provided security during years of regional and international instability.

But he did all of that by keeping the Palestinians weak and divided.

Launching airstrikes. And maintaining the status quo instead of seeking a peace solution. America has been the world. Police since world war II were a superpower.

We have been for as long as anyone listening to this podcast has been alive. and that actually Clouds our entire perspective on the world.

The United States and the people in it are always thinking about other countries and the impact that we could have on them. For better or worse. Consider how worked up so many people are about the airstrikes going on in Gaza. They're upset. They're protesting. They're putting pressure on our political leaders all because they think that we could do something about it and they're mad that we're not.

But I think that it makes it difficult for us to understand and empathize with the positions of people that live in countries that are not super powers.

Benjamin Netanyahu only thinks about Israel. To understand him. I think that we need to understand that. His only objective is the strength and preservation. Of Israel. He's not for anyone else. He doesn't represent anyone else.

His only priority is Israel specifically. It's security. A weak and divided. Palestine is good for Israel. Managing the status quo is good for Israel. Pushing Palestinians further and farther from Israel keeps it safe in theory, which is good for Israel.

Because he doesn't think that Palestinians want peace with Israel.

Because of the palestinians don't want peace with israel. They want peace without israel They don't want a peace a state next to israel. They want a state instead of israel

So anytime that you're looking in Netanyahu and thinking like, why, how can you do this to the Palestinians?

I think it's important to really understand that he's not here for the Palestinians he's here for the Israelis and from his perspective, he is making the retribution that he carries out on Hamas.

So brutal. That nobody will ever want to mess with Israel again, because he thinks that that is how he keeps Israel safe. And you can disagree with the effectiveness of that strategy on the merits. But I think that. This outcry in this confusion just really stems from the fact the we Americans are constantly viewing ourselves as a player on the world stage. And other countries don't.

nd of start to turn for BB in: 2019

In this case, they only last a year before breaking up and sending voters back to the ballot box. And when that happens, Bebe returns to power for his sixth term as prime minister. And in order to do that, he had to build a governing coalition out of the other political parties in Israel.

And all the good ones are taken. The only parties that really want to support him in the midst of his corruption trial or the ultra right wing religious Zionism coalition. And these ultra right-wingers are nuts.

One of the leaders is called Ben Govier. Who was convicted of inciting racism when he was a teenager has called for the expulsion of disloyal Arabs and supports analyzing the west bank and taking revenge on anybody that stands in their way. Not to mention he has 53 indictments and eight convictions for serious crimes. And now he's in charge of the police. Yeah, he's the minister of national security.

This guy is so radical that he was rejected by the IDF. The Israeli military in a country that requires you to serve. And then there's this guy called smote rich. Who advocates for segregation and maternity wards claims that illiterate Arabs are stealing university spots from Jewish applicants. Advocates for turning Israel into a theocracy, meaning it would be governed by religious law. And that's the guy that they put in charge of settlements in the west bank, which is especially frightening for the Palestinians, because he was a settlement leader. But BB can't be picky after all, he needed to make friends that wouldn't be bothered by his efforts to overturn the judiciary system so that he could Dodge jail time.

And if that's the goal, you can only align yourself with the crazies.

Since taking power, the new ultra right-wing government took extremism into the mainstream and the results were quite predictable. They approved thousands of new settlement homes. Something that the UN considers to be illegal. Legalized dozens of settler outposts for future settlements and stated a goal of analyzing the west bank, which would effectively doom any chance for Palestinian statehood. Not to mention that there's a bunch of Palestinians living there now.

So Israel's new government must be pretty scary for the Palestinians, right?

And then on top of that word gets out that Saudi Arabia is going to normalize relations with Israel, which makes them the latest in a string of Arab countries to do so. This is a result of the Abraham Accords that were passed during the Trump administration. To the Palestinians, it looks like the Arab world has moved on. They don't care about them or their cause anymore.

Which brings us here. To Hamas is barbaric attack on Israel that took place on October 7th and Israel's relentless retaliation that's been occurring ever since.

A couple things really struck me while I was researching and writing this episode. The first is just a new depth of despair that I feel for the people of Palestine. The Palestinian people have been abused, used, manipulated, and betrayed by everyone that they've ever put faith in. The Arab countries gave up on them after losing two wars to Israel. And then they just left them there. Arafat profited off of them and use them to further his own ambitions for power instead of delivering them a Homeland. Israeli leaders gave up on peace and opted for force instead, slowly chipping away at what little land was promised to the Palestinians.

Then they filled that very same land would Jewish settlements. Fata the party that was supposed to lead them was corrupt, ineffective, and incredibly unpopular. But a boss, the leader now, 88 years old refuses to hold elections.

He tried once Hamas one. And he hasn't stepped aside or held another sense.

They would rather split the Palestinian people in half, then step down and give a power. And Hamas is no different. They haven't allowed elections either because they think that they would lose. The average age for a Palestinian is 19 years old, but nobody under 34 has ever voted. Meaning, they are represented by people that they did not elect and they don't trust. But it's not just that. A survey conducted prior to the October 7th attacks.

So that 75% of Gaza citizens that were surveyed had run out of food and couldn't afford to buy more within the last 30 days.

Meanwhile, Hamas, pillages their treasury to support their terrorist activities. They use the children of Gaza to build tunnels and then hide from Israel underneath them.

The Palestinians, except these tunnels, because for a while, they were used to move goods into Gaza.

The only way that they had to get them during the Israeli and Egyptian blockade. And even though they guarantee civilian casualties, they also helped Hamas fight Israel, something that Palestinians think no other force could or would do. If Hamas gave a damn about the Palestinian state, they would have shared power with Fatah or negotiated with Israel to end the blockade, but they didn't. And if they didn't want to negotiate with Israel, they could have tried negotiating with Egypt. But they didn't.. They chose power instead. If they cared about the Palestinian people, they wouldn't hide in tunnels underneath them and use them as shields.

If they cared about Palestinian lives, they wouldn't have attacked Israel, butchered babies, and massacred civilians.

Then take hostages and bring them back into Gaza. Knowing that Israel would retaliate. Knowing that people would die. But they don't care about Palestinian lives. They only care about Israeli deaths.

The Palestinian people are just means of gaining money and maintaining power. Yet. They still view Hamas as their best option.

Can you imagine for a second, how isolated, disenfranchised, and helpless you have to feel to be grateful for Hamas. In Israel, Netanyahu has courted dangerous extremists because he would rather partner with them than give up power. Uh, power that ultimately has corrupted him. Allegedly. And now his far right coalition legitimizes, the violent Israeli settler movement that attacks innocent Palestinians regularly. And illegally occupies their land. This government seeks to take what little land the Palestinians have and then Yahoo hasn't stopped them.

He's enabled them. Because doing so keeps them in power.. This whole conflict has been accelerated and perpetuated that shows power over peace and over their people.

But the other thing that I can't shake, the other harder question is that if peace was on the table, Would either country even want it. These Raley's sought peace in the nineties and only got violence as a result.

And since then they've moved farther and farther away from a two-state solution. And after October 7th, it's hard to imagine that Israelis are moving closer to compromise.

The Palestinians for their part, don't have a majority that supports a two-state solution. They still want a one-state solution without Israel.

They want all of the lands of historic Palestine and a full right to return. Plus compensation from Israel. The country that they would seek to exterminate.

And even if they did have a group that would support two states, they would have to overthrow Hamas to get it. Hamas who makes a billion dollars every year.

A grassroots organizer. Wouldn't stand a chance.

They wouldn't have the resources to overthrow Hamas, let alone the will. So, where does that leave us? Where do we go? Since October 7th, 26,000 Palestinians have been killed. Hostages haven't been released.

And they're only signs of escalation from both sides.

Not only that, but a regional conflict is already breaking out who the rebels in Yemen are firing at us cargo ships and the us military is firing back. All of this is escalating quickly. Egypt and Israel are reportedly pursuing ways to help the war. Allegedly is real offered a two month ceasefire in return for hostages being released. They also agreed to free their Palestinian prisoners and let Hamas leaders relocate to other countries and live in exile. But Hamas has allegedly rejected that offer saying that no hostages would be released until Israel ends its offensive. And withdraws from Gaza. Hamas leaders also refuse to go into exile. Why. Because there's no power in that.

Netanyahu and response has vowed to continue the war until all of their objectives are met. And as of now, the Israeli public appears to overwhelmingly support the war effort.

With a better understanding of how we got here and why it's so hard to get out.

I wish I could leave you on a better note, but unfortunately that's it for today's episode. I would love to hear your thoughts. I know that I came at you with a lot. If you want to talk about it, you can always send me an email. I talk@moderatepartypodcast.com. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like rate, review, follow D I don't know, do all the things, you know, what they are. Thanks guys. I'll talk to you again soon.

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