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Ciara and Darragh venture outdoors and record this special episode, on-location in the farmyard at Green Earth Organics in Corrandulla, Co. Galway.

An in depth discussion with farmer Kenneth Keavey about his experience of the challenges and joys in running an organic vegetable farm in rural Ireland. Kenneth Ciara and Darragh talk about his unique business model, its benefits to the environment and the general state of agriculture in Ireland

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Hello and welcome to the Climate Alarm Clock podcast, your

Irish Climate News podcast.

I'm Dara Wynn, and today myself and Kira Daley are coming to you with a special

episode from our home county of Galway . So, uh, rather than recording in our rooms

on Zoom, we're actually outside on a farm and we'll find out a little bit more.

About that later, . But, uh, before we get into the episode, a reminder that

we're an independently run podcast, and if you like to support what we do,

you can do so by buying us a coffee at buy me a coffee.com/the climate alarm.

So for today's episode, we are on Green Earth Organics Farm in

Keah County, Galway, and we're here with, uh, Kenneth Kevy.

So Kenneth, thanks a William for having us out to the farm today

and joining us on the podcast.

So thanks for inviting me.

Pleasure.

Um, So, as I said there in the introduction, we're outside,

we're on your farm here.

So can you tell us a little bit about where we are and the work that you

do here in Green Earth Organics?

Absolutely.

Thanks a million, Dara and Kira for inviting me on.

A pleasure to be here.

Yeah.

So this is Green Earth Organics Farm.

It's about, uh, 28 acres in total.

Um, it was my granddad's farm basically.

So he farm, he was a mixed farmer here, so that's two generations ago.

He had veg, he had chickens, he had all sorts of stuff, you

know, so he did everything.

Um, and, and then my, then my dad came in.

My dad couldn't take over the farm for, for a couple of different reasons, and

it was rented out for a period of time.

And then basically, um, we're just trying to make a decision about, uh, what, what

would happen to the future of the firm.

So, Uh, the farm is, is, yeah, so it's, it's three generations

and, and now it's an organic vegetable growing entity basically.

Um, great.

And can, can you tell us a bit more about sort of what kind of stuff you,

you grow here and what you do here and maybe a bit about the business?

'cause there's a lot more than what happens in the farm

yard to GreenLake Organics.

Yeah, sure.

So, so basically I suppose, look, um, we started out here growing vegetables

on a quarter acre site, just where the big packing shed is there now.

And that was back in 2005 at the time.

I was working in Medtronic, in Galway, you know, and uh, we were

just supplying carrots and stuff to friends and family and that, um, and.

Basically from there, then we're just going to, you know, I just wanted

to get, get into doing it in a more kind of, uh, commercial way to try

and make a living from it, you know?

Which at the time was, you know, I guess there wasn't too many people in

the west of Ireland growing vegetables, vegetables, farms were closing down.

Not opening up.

So, um, it was kind of to take a, a route in a new direction, you know.

So the farm itself now is a mixed vegetable holding.

We have about, I suppose, 15 acres of vegetables, all sorts of different types.

We're sitting here in the yard and behind me is, um, there's

a thousand tomato plants.

So we have a s of delicious tomato plants.

Yeah.

. And there might be 999 now , me and Dar, well absolutely feel free

to taste the produce as we go.

So, you know, we grow, we're right in the.

Set the center point of Irish production at the moment.

we've got tomatoes and kale and broccoli and we grow, grow everything, you know,

so, um, so there's a lot going on on the farm and then obviously, um, I guess, I

dunno if you wanna talk about it now or later on, but the kind of the business

model we have is unique, I suppose, in respect of how we get what we grow to

the people that finally end up eating it at their kitchen table, you know?

So a lot goes on here.

Um, we have a lot of people employed and, uh, yeah, it's

just, it's a busy, busy place.

So, One of the things that I love about Greenhouse Organics is, well,

obviously it's very convenient for me.

You're only maybe about two miles up the road from where I am,

so it's very easy for me to get my hands on delicious projects.

But one of the things I love about what you do as a business is kind

of the work that you do in terms of, well, specifically on social media, is

the easiest place to come across that you're really kind of active in kind

of educating about people about what.

You do it at the farm and why you do it like that.

Um, and something I suppose that will be interesting to kind of touch on is . how,

you know, whether it was after getting into organic farming that you decided

that you needed to, decided that you needed to start doing this, or vice versa.

Did you say, I need to start doing this and I'm gonna become an organic farmer?

what?

What did that journey kind of look like?

. Right.

Okay.

Kira, thanks for the question.

Yeah, so I guess, look, um, Uh, going back to right back when I was a small

kid, you know, I was, um, you know, I wanted to be a member of Greenpeace and

I wanted to be with friends of the Earth.

And I remember when the first bottle bank started up in Galway, outside

what was Quins worth at the time.

trying to convince my parents that the bottles should go to the

bottle bank and not into the bin, and it was always something, yeah.

Thoroughly believed in, you know, the planet, the trees, the biodiversity.

It was just something that was inside me that was there.

And, um, I worked on a farm for years as a kid growing up, my father wanted

me to be, you know, wanted to know the value of hard work and to work summers.

And remember the end of my fifth summer and I got three sheep, and I,

I just didn't want sheep and I didn't want to do farming at that stage.

I was a teenager and all that.

Yeah.

You know, so, um, So, yeah, so that kind of was always there, uh, deep

down, I suppose, a belief that we have to take care of the planet.

Yeah.

And we have to do right by it, you know?

Um, and then I went off to university.

I studied chemistry.

I went off and worked in the pharmaceutical industry.

I started working in the biotech industry, so I was dealing a lot with chemicals.

And all the time the farm here at home was, as I was saying earlier,

it was being rented and my dad was talking about whether he

would sell it or what, and yeah.

I wasn't really happy doing what I was doing, so myself and my wife,

Jenny, took the jump and said, look, right, we're just gonna do it.

We're gonna go back to Ireland.

We're gonna take over the farm.

We're going to do something right for the planet, and what can that be?

Yeah.

And we figured out the growing vegetables without chemicals, local food

production would be the right way to go.

Yeah.

And that's what we decided.

And then we made the transition and we did the jump.

And here we are today, you know, 20 years later.

So, yeah.

And how do you find the response, I suppose to.

You know, trying to communicate all of those efforts to an audience online.

Yeah.

Well I guess if I go back to the start, maybe it was very funny

'cause we were like back, you know, 20 years ago there wasn't PolyOne.

Yeah.

Now everybody has poly tones, but back then there wasn't, you know, so we put

up our first poly tunnel and there was.

Um, you know, great interest from, and not always positive interest either.

Yeah.

We had the Gari visited us one time.

Oh.

came up to see what we were doing in our special PolyOne out the back.

Okay.

Strange ares from the uk but we weren't blow ins 'cause we're from here.

Yeah.

But we were doing something new.

Yeah.

And they wanted to have a little look around, so I'm not sure it

was going through their mind.

Well I do know what was going through their mind, , but nevertheless.

They heard about your cherry tomatoes, , yeah.

Special plants that we had growing there, so, you know, anyway, so that was funny.

And, and, and then there was the kind of the local contingent that

Roundup came into the debate.

Yeah.

And growing without chemicals.

It was a new thing back then.

So, um, I.

Yeah, I've lost my train of thought.

Now.

What was the original question actually, just I suppose there,

you've kind of covered it, I suppose.

Oh, communication, the response in general to the communication.

Yeah.

Well, I, I mean, I suppose that's kind of what's kind of grown with the

business then is the education and the piece and trying to let people

know that this is really important.

And I'm not saying we are really important, but you know, how we

produce our food has a big impact on the health of our planet.

Yeah.

Like, and I feel quite passionate about that.

Good.

Yeah.

I suppose what, what you said there about education and you know, I'd echo what Kira

says, the stuff you put up on socials are great and it's something on the podcast.

Kira and Anna, our cohosts are always kind of slagging me 'cause I'm always

talking about food and you know how food, I'm lucky you for talking about birds.

I welcome to talk about food and how food insecure Ireland is and stuff.

But I suppose on that education kind of idea, can you explain like how

is what you're doing here different?

You know what, what makes organic farming and what makes what you're doing different

to other farming in Ireland and what are the benefits of that when it comes to

climate, when it comes to biodiversity?

Absolutely.

So I think the key thing for us is the connection with the person

who's eating the food, you know?

Yeah.

And trying to explain how the food is grown and the impact that that

growing has on the environment locally or globally or whatever.

And to make, just to try and raise the level of awareness around

food a little bit, you know?

So, When we were started out and when the crash came in 2010 and we had to start

supplying supermarkets, we lost that connection with, uh, people, you know?

Yeah.

And it wasn't something I enjoyed.

So, you know, we show people how we grow tomatoes and how to side shoot

them and what's involved and the amount of work that goes into it.

And, you know, when you don't use chemicals, The benefits

that you see around us.

We have beehives, we have bees, we have flowers, we have birds.

You were talking about birds earlier.

There's a myriad of biodiversity alive on this farm, and you only need to look left

or right to our farm to see where there's monocultures of grass and no trees.

Mm-hmm.

, what impact that has on biodiversity.

So, A big, large scale, conventional food production has a massive cost that isn't

ever realized at the supermarket level.

The cost now is becoming unclear, I think, from the perspective of, you know, what's

happening to our planet and this is a cost that's going to be unquantifiable.

You know, and, and, and these are the little things we

can do in the little places.

To try and change that and make improvements and, you

know, have a positive impact.

And making tho tho taking those choices does make a difference.

You know, and I think that's one of the things we can all suffer

from is getting carried away by, well it doesn't matter anyway.

You know, whatever I do, what the hell is it?

How much of a difference is it going to make?

You know?

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

And I think it's one thing for me, you know, when things get overwhelming or,

or whatever, and how big things are.

Food is something, you know, you eat every day.

And if you have that connection to your food and to the people that are growing

it, it's a really empowering thing.

As a consumer, like I, like, I find, I find that, and I dunno if it's,

I, I, I would've ordered boxes from you, but now I'm in the office in the

day that you deliver up to Dublin.

So I, I can't do that.

But I remember like the, that feeling of getting the delivery . You know, from

you and, you know, having the different food every week and having the challenge

of, you know, having to do something with the different ingredients you wouldn't

normally have and that kind of thing.

But it is, it's such a powerful thing and, and just having that connection with food

that a lot of people don't have anymore.

Yeah.

And I Exactly.

And it's happened though.

It's happened kind of nearly without us even realizing it's happened.

Yeah.

'cause you just go back a generation and you had that connection with food.

Mm-hmm.

. And now the way food has being sold and packaged and delivered, you

know, it's . Removed us from the understanding of what the impact.

The production of the food has on the people, on the ground, on

the land, on biodiversity, on the planet, everything is taken away.

Yeah.

And I've often said it, you know, you go to the supermarket, it's

very convenient, it's very easy.

It's wrapped in plastic, it's there, it's shiny, it looks great, but you have

no idea really the story behind that pepper or the carrot or whatever it is.

Yeah.

And what, what, you know, either benefit or damage it's done in its

journey to your . To your supermarket and then onto your place, you know,

so something you kind of mentioned a little bit earlier was just kind of

about what makes your business unique.

And we've kind of had got a little insight into, you know, your

relationship with the supermarkets.

Could you kind of give us a little bit more, you, you are not selling

into, like your business model is unique in that you sell direct.

To the consumer.

So could you just give us a little bit of insight into

why you've made that decision?

You know, it was something you did previously and Absolutely.

And just how it works as well, maybe how works?

Yeah, absolutely.

So look, I guess back in the day when we were, we were supplying a,

a super value, uh, chain and, um, it was good for us at the beginning.

Mm-hmm.

, and I think this is what can happen.

And I know for a fact this is what can happen in the beginning.

Things can be, well, you know, you're the supplier and you know,

you think you're being treated with respect and all the rest.

Yeah.

So we had a chain of stores and we were delivering to them and that was great.

and, uh, and sales would go up and down.

And then one day a, a manager in one of the stores changed or their kind of

approach to their margins or whatever.

It was changed.

And, and that Monday we didn't get an order and that was our

biggest, uh, biggest customer and we didn't have an order.

And I spoke with the manager and the manager said, listen, yeah, of course.

No problem.

We can give you an order, but . You need to drop your price.

You need to be responsible for the waste on our shelves.

Wow.

You need to manage our shelves.

Yeah.

And you need to take the stuff away.

Um, and you need to deliver to us and, and just be responsible for the whole thing.

Four or less.

That's really, yeah.

Which didn't make it sustainable.

One day they just turn around and change those stairs on Monday.

And I guess I'd be quite, you know, emotional in that respect and my

reaction wasn't considered, or you know, like, well, we have to work with this.

It was just like . That was that.

Yeah, we'll find another way.

You know, and we ditched them in a fit of rage, I suppose , which probably

wasn't the best business decision ever.

It could have been more measured, but you know, it was

the right decision at the time.

Yeah.

And I know a lot of conventional farmers we have, you know, you see what's been

happening this year with, uh, farmers closing their doors and shutting down,

and they're not talking about asking for

Huge amount, increase in price for the primary produce they're producing.

You might be talking about 5 cents on a head of celery.

I mean, yeah.

Why can't that be given if that's going to save the local production of

food organic or otherwise, you know?

Yeah.

And it won't be something I've seen you talking about a bit on, on Green

Earth, organic social media pages is about loss leaders and how Yeah.

Vegetables are often the loss leader.

Could you just . Give a little bit more insight into what that is and how works.

Yeah, absolutely.

Kira.

Yeah.

So loss leading is where a supermarket uses a product or produce

to entice people into the shop.

Mm-hmm.

, and it's sold way below.

Um, you know, the cost, value of production.

So if you go back a few years, there was a ti, there was a Christmas there where

Brussels sprouts and carrots were sold at.

I think 5 cents or 10 cents.

Wow.

Per pack.

I dunno if you remember that, but it wasn't that long ago.

Maybe five or six years ago.

Yeah.

It was big uproar from both the community and the farmers, you know,

because that was basically number one, degrading the value of the projects

that somebody's worked really hard for.

It's really disrespectful.

And secondly, even though the supermarkets take a percentage of the hit there, they

expect the farmer to contribute to that.

So how can you produce food for five?

How can you produce a bag carrot for 5 cents?

That's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's absolutely.

Uh, crazy.

We're just having one of the tractors coming in to the,

to the yard there now, so,

um, yeah, and it kind of changes.

What angers me about that is it changes the consumer's perception,

you know, it changes the value that they placed on that product.

And yeah, we kind of already have a huge problem with that.

We don't need any kind of more fuel thrown on that fire.

Well, absolutely, and I think there is, um, I can't remember the exact

piece of legislation, but there is legislation that prevents the, um,

Uh, selling of certain items below the value or the cost of production,

but it doesn't apply to fresh produce, to fish, to meat or to vegetables.

Yeah.

Which is crazy, you know?

Um, and that's the one thing that could change, that would level the

playing field and make it fair and would encourage, you know, a bit

of stability in the whole industry.

Mm-hmm.

and maybe encourage people that are thinking of getting

out of it to stay in it.

Yeah.

And supermarkets.

Have, you know, they have all the power, they have all the retail space.

They can dictate exactly what the price will be.

Farmer has no choice in the matter.

And what you said there about, um, devaluing, uh,

devaluation in people's minds.

Well, that's a very important one because it devalues, you know,

probably the best food we can eat.

And it's saying it's not worth crap back.

Yeah.

You know, it's just not worth anything.

That's actually something I was saying before we went on.

I interviewed you . I think over four years ago now at this stage for a

different project, and something that you said that really stuck with me

was that, you know, we eat food every day, , it's going into our bodies.

It's so important and we need to value it and we need to, we need to show that

value by being willing to pay more for.

Good produce, you know, that is good for people and good for the planet and

like it's something that, you know, obviously not everyone can do it.

You know, some people are in, especially at the moment,

really difficult situations.

Yeah.

With cost of living crisis, that kind of thing.

Absolutely.

But I think as a powerful, it's a really powerful thing that if you

are in a position where you can.

Pay a little bit more for your food and value it from a financial point of

view and from a personal point of view.

It's such a, it's such a, such a big thing.

Yeah.

It makes such a difference.

And you, you know, you hit the nail on the head earlier, you're

saying, you know, um, the cost and the value and the value then to the

planet and the value to your health.

We had, um, shown owns, who's a doctor a, an MD.

Is that what we say here in Ireland?

He's a, he's a, you know, a gp.

Yeah.

Um, and he's a member of Doctors for the Environment and they brought out a

report there, a few in, in May about, um, . About how food affects our health.

And I loved what he said about, you know, it's an investment in

your health pension for the future.

It's very hard though, to realize, yeah, what's gonna happen in 20 years

as a result of your choices now.

But it really does make a difference, you know?

Yeah.

And if we can see that, then it helps justify paying a

little bit extra for your food.

And you're right, of course, there are a lot of people who are finding

things very difficult, and how can you say, well, we want you to pay

more for your food then as a result.

But on the other hand, what we put value on as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it.

Um, so can you talk then a bit about, say a bit about that model of . Of

delivering direct to the customer and, and how, how that works and,

'cause it's not just food from the farm that, that you deliver as well.

Yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely.

So look, we started out, we discovered quite quickly that just because we grow

something doesn't mean people want it.

Yeah.

And we grow stuff because we like it and it's easy to grow,

but nobody's gonna eat it.

So that's not gonna work out too well for you.

And you still have a logistical.

Challenge of getting something from Kernal and Galway to say, swords in Dublin.

Yeah.

And how do you manage that?

You know, so how do you manage it and still stay in business as well?

'cause it's a costly affair.

Producing food, packing food, and then doing the delivery, the

whole thing from start to finish.

Um, and that caused two different changes to the business.

One was we figured out quite quickly that we can't grow everything

on the farm and we needed help from other growers to support.

This kind of network that we're trying to develop.

So over the last two years, that's changed dramatically now where we have other

growers that are growing crops for us, specifically at an agreed price, which

is a fair price, and we agreed to take a certain amount from them at a price.

We agree, and we don't change that.

So there's a network of growers that we get produce from all

organically certified, and we pack that and then we deliver it.

We also have.

grocery products and we have to, we've had to bring in the grocery products to

try and make the delivery sustainable, and also to give customers an option

to buy sustainable, healthy groceries.

And most of the stuff we stock is plastic free, and that's one of the other kind

of guiding principles of the business.

So, Yeah.

So you deliver na, you deliver nationwide people anywhere around the country?

Yeah, and we, yeah.

And obviously we, people can go onto our website and order whatever they want.

Um, back in the day, back in the early days, it was just a fixed box,

but we all sort of found out that people want a bit of flexibility.

So now you can go and choose.

To buy some of our lovely cherry tomatoes that'll be picked fresh here, packed

into paper bags, and delivered to your home, wherever that is in the country.

Or some of our broccoli or kale, or some of Enda Hoen scallions or battle Mount

farms, organic new potatoes or whatever it is, and we'll pack it up, delivered

to you in sustainable packaging wherever you are, whatever parts of the country.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I suppose, yeah, I suppose kind of as I was saying, I, I can't with the

way things are at the work at the moment.

I haven't been able to order for a while.

But what I really like is, you know, you were talking earlier

about how the supermarkets, you don't know where the food has come

from and, and that kind of thing.

Whereas I feel when I'm getting it from here, , you curated almost . Yeah.

. You know, so it's kind of like, well, you know, you've done your, you've done your

due diligence, so you know these, even the tinned chickpeas or whatever, you know,

they're . They're as good as it gets.

So that's what I feel.

It kind of takes any of that stress or worry.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's like, well, you know, I know, you know, I know what your business is about.

I know you've done the research, so actually I don't have to worry , you

know, I don't look any further.

And there's real, real peace of mind in that.

Well, thank you for that.

Uh, Dar.

And it is something like when we're making a decision about how we grow something,

If we're gonna grow it sustainably and then all the other steps down the line.

Yeah.

Have to be as sustainable as we can ma Actually, we just had a, a team meeting

in there and one of the questions last week was about the compostable

bags that we pack our kale in.

Yeah.

And so we had to go and do a little bit of research and it's p l a polylactic acid.

Um, and it was good that member of the team brought it up and it wasn't,

it's not plastic, it's not petro chemically derived, but at the same time,

Um, it's not, it needs to, uh, it takes longer to degrade, but we

discuss things like that at a level.

The people who are working there are thinking about this stuff, which is great.

Yeah.

Like it's obvious that, you know, not every business can do every

single . Absolute element of their business, like a one that's

just not ever gonna be realistic.

But that idea that you guys are at least trying and are always

reviewing and always figuring it out, it's like exactly what you say.

Like when I come here, I'm just, it's not, I don't have to read labels.

I don't have to pick everything up.

I have to, I can just pick, get what I need and go Wow.

And like that's actually a real

Unique kind of thing to be able to do when you're trying to do things sustainably.

'cause you're constantly being like, can I do this?

And then you're looking at the price so at least you can

just be like, go up to Green.

Arthur can expect, okay, I just do these things and go, but the rest

of my day . Um, yeah, absolutely.

And can you just talk then, you mentioned all, all the kind of staff you have.

'cause that's one thing that I find really it.

I feel is missing from the conversation around agriculture in Ireland is that,

you know, you said this is a 28 acre farm and with, you know, say the farm

that we have at home will be around the same size or, or a bit bigger and, and

a lot of family farms like that, that are that size, it's just one person

running them, you know, or it's just, you know, maybe two people that, you know,

the farmer and his wife or whatever.

Yeah.

Right.

Whereas on this farm, you're employing . Lo loads of people.

You know, people talk about rural decline in Ireland and and stuff, whereas

actually . This isn't just good for kind of the planet either you have a model

where on, on a farm, if it was say, beef might only be employing one person.

You, how many people are you employing?

And yeah, so, so it's, I suppose there's kind of, there's the farm

aspect, which is depending on the time of the year, four or five, six people.

It's very labor intensive.

Yeah.

Picking and vegetables.

We have a lot of machines as you can see around me here, and tractors and

things for weeding and all sorts of bits and bobs, but nevertheless, Most

of the produce is harvested by hand, and that takes people, you know, people are

missing from the fields of Ireland today.

It's just the way it is.

Yeah.

Um, but in total, in the whole business, there's 35 people.

Um, you know, that doesn't just involve the farm, of course, it involves the

quality control and the packing and the administration and the delivery and the

marketing and this and that, and all the other bits that we try to kind of keep all

the balls in the air while we're juggling them all, you know, so it's a busy little.

Place.

You know, and I, and I guess you're right, rural decline is, is an issue

and trying to get people back to see other opportunities on the land.

And that's one thing I guess we've seen, we've seen a lot of people

come through here and then learn a little bit and then go off and start

their own small vegetable farms.

There's been a number of people who've done that.

Mm-hmm.

and, and I think there's been a growth in, um, You know, small

organic producers around the country led by young people, which is

fantastic 'cause you need the energy.

Let's face it.

Oh my God, it was 20 years ago.

I was a good bit younger then.

You need the energy to get through that early days, you know, you really do.

So, uh, yeah.

So that's, that's it.

There, um, have been a lot of stories lately about kind of crop

yields and how, you know, the weather has really impacted that.

Mm-hmm.

, um, and in Ireland we just had the hottest June ever followed

by the wettest ever July.

So how has that affected things for you here at Green Arts Organics?

So I think Kira, the thing that we've seen since, uh, 2018, which is probably

one of the years that'll stand out in most people's memory with the beast

from the east, uh, hurricane Ophelia, just before and then a mad drought.

Yeah.

Three climate related disasters in one year.

Just recently, may and June were very, very dry.

Unseasonably hot.

Yeah.

We've had to invest in a water tanker to water crops and people

You used to laugh at that.

Yeah.

In the west of Ireland, in Galway.

Why are you irrigating in Galway?

Mad in the head.

Yeah.

But now it's a reality.

It's the change in the, the seasons, the change in the climate.

Yeah.

Uh, crops are stunted for two months without water, which it was six or

seven weeks I think we had no rain.

Yeah.

Which is highly unusual, but becoming a lot more usual.

Yeah.

So that affects crop yield and that the plants don't grow without water.

Right.

And then July you have a cold wet July, and that further inhibits growth.

It water logs the soil, it increases disease pressure on plants.

It has a big impact on, on yields, you know, so it does absolutely affect us.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That must be a big stress on like, obviously from a business standpoint,

that's an obvious stress, but in terms of, you know, when you've

got all of these people that you're employing, you know, it's, that's an

additional, you know, that connection.

Between the food and people who are growing it, it's, it's

really apparent when you think of it through that lens as well.

I think.

Well, I think, you know, that's, you meant, you asked earlier about the, you

know, the communication on social media and we try to communicate the reality

of what's happening and the, you know, the, the challenges that are involved.

Yeah.

And I think like we've, a lot of loyal customers, a lot of people are very

supportive of what we do, and we're very grateful and thankful for that.

Um, and just to show like, this is the reality here.

Look, this stuff is water.

Like it's not going to grow, it's going to die.

Well, you've made all the investments, you have all the overheads,

and what do you do with that?

You know?

Yeah.

And we're.

F really lucky.

We're in the west of Ireland.

We have a nice climate, relatively speaking, compared to what's

happening in other parts of the world.

Yeah.

You know, where there's huge production of commodity crops.

Yeah.

In te, in relation to that, kind of, those crops that are being grown outside

of Ireland or whatever, like food production outside of Ireland as a whole,

how would that impact what you're doing here at GreenLake Organics, if at all?

Yeah.

So it impacts us quite a lot, I suppose.

'cause our remit is grow it ourselves if we can.

Yeah.

And we've discovered we can't grow everything.

So then we grow, we get other Irish growers to grow stuff that we don't grow.

Yeah.

Um, and uh, and you see that you, we pay more for the Irish produce.

We, it costs more to grow Irish produce.

Yeah.

Labor costs are higher in Ireland.

You know, it just, Costs more.

Yeah.

So then you have the situation where a lot of cheap food has

been imported and you're trying to compete with that and you just can't.

Yeah, you just can't do it.

It goes back to your question about loss leading earlier.

If we devalue the fresh food and we're buying imported cheap food,

and then we're seeing Irish food, that there's that bit more expensive.

Uh, is a consumer prepared to pay the price Yeah.

To support the Irish farm.

But we think people are, I think it's one of those things that seems

to be a winning argument that people are want to support Irish, you know?

Yeah.

Where it isn't prohibitively more expensive.

Yeah.

Um, and just on what you were saying there about the weather and, and

the kind of June and July, is it.

I dunno where I saw this, but is, is it kind of helpful for you in

dealing with adverse weather that you grow such a mixture of things?

Is it kind of that there's, you know, there might be a couple of crops you

have to write off, but there'll always be something that will make it through

is kind of, is that smaller scale?

More diverse growing, is that kind of more climate resilient than the

kind of monocultural approach that we see in most of the country?

Absolutely.

What a great point.

You know?

Absolutely.

I mean, 10 points.

Yeah.

. . It's such an important, uh, point though, you know, because there's a

couple of different things in there.

Firstly, I suppose, uh, Growing stuff sustainably means your

soil is in better condition.

If you've got a lot of water, it can hold the water.

It doesn't flood, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't, um, get waterlogged as much.

It's able to tolerate the stresses that we're seeing now, you know,

'cause the soil and without, you know, healthy soil needs to healthy plants.

So that's the first thing that, um,

Let's wait for the tractor, maybe to, to go by.

So, um, and then, you know, small production, lots of variety of course

varieties the spice of life as they say, you know, so if you've got, if

kale over here and leaks over there, they may need different conditions

and one will thrive and one may not.

So you do, you have a certain element of resilience in there.

And when you go grow to large monocultures, that's

absolutely what, what's missing.

And not only that, but what you're planting into isn't as resilient,

so you have a double negative.

So going to more diverse, as our grandparents did, and I'm not saying go

back to the dark ages, but it's, it's definitely a way that we can tackle and

still grow food whilst the climate is in the fluxx it's currently in, you know?

Yeah.

You kind of spoke about, well we've, we've covered kind of, um, . You

know, the costs and the labor that's associated with, with organic farming.

Um, and we've talked a little bit about, you know, that kind of the

devaluing almost of vegetables, for some reason here in Ireland.

Is there any kind of like government or industry supports that you would

see as being necessary to kind of like, how do we incentivize more organic,

more growers to become organic and how to grow that, that element of

the food industry here in Ireland?

Um, So that we can kind of in increase the amount of sustainably produced food

that we have, but also so that we can make it more affordable to the consumer, or

at least ma make it accessible because, you know, reality is organic veg at the

moment is not accessible to everyone.

The, like organic and anything.

Hmm.

And even sometimes not organic, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So, kind of ha is there any, it's a big question, but , I'm

sure you've got the answer.

. Oh, I dunno.

I know I may not be No pressure sitting here and then all fire,

but uh, yeah, look, I mean, I think the bottom line comes down to.

Um, you can talk all about supports and grants Yeah.

And everything else.

And if you look at like the, the way supports are divvied

up, it's the size of the land.

Yeah.

The landowner, uh, you know, you're gonna get a bigger, bigger grant.

Yeah.

Even if you're not producing stuff.

In some cases.

The bottom line is you go to somewhere like France and you see the price

of a head of lettuce and it's a reasonable price for the lettuce.

And that would suggest that the farmer's getting a more reasonable price for

the cost of production and ultimately a fair price for the produce you're

producing is like it's the only way.

Yeah.

Why does a industry, why, what other industries are expected

to be supported by granted?

Yeah.

To be sustainable.

Mm-hmm.

, it's ridiculous.

It's our food security in an air in a time when we need to be . So aware of

this and we're going, well, you know, the farmers get the grants and, and

actually just to put it in context, we get very little in the way of grants here.

Yeah.

I think we get maybe two thou, maybe 2000 euros in a year.

Yeah.

For the farm we have here, which in the context of the impact it

has on our business is nothing.

You know, something I've always found really strange about the organic.

You know about businesses that try to operate as an organic business

is the fact that you, you have to pay for a certification, don't you?

You do.

So our certification and and certification protects the consumer.

Yeah.

So it's important, but there's a cost.

Our cost is prob approximately 1600 euros in a year, and then there's all

the paperwork you need amass, you know?

So you would imagine that you would need to be paying to do business.

Badly.

Really . Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, this, this, I mean, there's a, it's almost penalizing the

people who are trying to do it.

Right.

Well, I guess, you know, there is definitely a cost

to to, to being certified.

Yeah.

But at the same time, it kind of keeps things right as well, in a way, you know?

And if you're not certified, You know, you got bigger players involved.

Mm-hmm.

, how do you know that they're actually following the rules.

Yeah.

And we're inspected twice a year.

We would be anyway.

Yeah.

The certification is an afterthought in our head.

Yeah.

We do things because we want to do them.

Yeah.

But we have to be certified.

And we will be certified, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you're right.

You have a good point there too.

Yeah.

Thanks.

No, Derek

Um, eh, are there any things that, I know you said like, you know,

it's . I think it's great that you're hammering home that point about, you

know, we just need to value food.

But are there things, are there sort of big picture things that you would love to

see, you know, from a policy perspective or, or from a, you know, from a grant

perspective or whatever that would, that could change, that could change food,

that could incentivize not just new organic growers, you know, they could

incentivize safe people to change over from, from beef or dairy to, mm-hmm.

to be growing some food.

Do you think they're . Well, I guess if you know, if you're looking at it

from the purpose perspective of trying to make it more affordable then, and

we have to stay with the idea of grant aid, then there has to be more . Grant

grants based around production.

So if you produce carrots and you're going to be producing organic carrots,

then you're going to get a supplement, which will then allow you to sell the

carrots for a lesser cost, which makes it more affordable to the consumer.

You know, I don't think still though.

I don't think any other business would, you know, go down that road

of having to rely on that, you know?

But I, I get what you're saying completely.

Now, there are some good grants out there at the moment.

The TAMS grant, which is available to all farmers, they've, the government,

has just increased the availability, um, to cover solar panels and solar,

solar energy production to 60% of the cost of putting solar panels on.

Your farm sheds, how many farm sheds are in Ireland and how could that help us?

Yeah, yeah.

In our energy heading towards carbon neutrality, you know, so why

is every farmer should have solar panels on their farm sheds at 60%

grants, so many farm sheds around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why not?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's it now.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

I think the other thing, you know, or that I find . Interesting about the kind of

grants and the way it works is that we, on one hand, we're having this cost living

crisis where people can't afford food.

But then the fact that most of the food that's grown here, the

beef and dairy is from Export.

Export.

So you're not even seeing the grants bringing down No, no.

Bringing down the price of food that's locally produced, because

that food is mostly imported and it's this totally how much food?

Dairy.

You love this stat ? It's, it's eight.

It's around 80%.

I don't think it's 80% . Yeah, yeah.

But it's true, like export driven agriculture is the

model we have in this country.

You know?

An indigenous production for indigenous supply is, it's kind

of an afterthought, you know?

Yeah.

So it is, and that makes it difficult to compete in that arena.

'cause all . You know, all the supports and all the government ministers

and everybody and like farmers have a huge voice, but it's all of a

certain type, you know, it's all, and I have, we we're in a little

organic vegetable production farmers.

We're a tiny minority in this country.

Yeah.

Of.

Farmers, you know, so, yeah, y yeah.

And can I, can I ask about that then?

'cause you know, so much of the discourse when it comes to climate

change and farming, it's, it's the kind of environmental movement and, and

farmers and, and primarily the beef and dairy industry really at loggerheads.

Yeah.

You are kind of in the middle or you're in both camps.

Dunno, where I'm, I dunno where I am some days.

Oh my god.

Uh, yeah, but I s you know, I s I suppose you're, you know, long

or at it anyway than me and Tara.

Well, yeah, yeah.

I mean, how, how have you navigated it?

And it's something that, you know, you Yeah, that's a

good, good way of putting it.

How, how do you navigate that, or how do you feel about all that,

or, oh, do you, I dunno if I can say how I feel about all of that.

It's a fair enough . Well, I, I mean, you know, um, . Yeah.

So we've been, as you say, we've been at this, uh, a good few years now,

and there's been a lot of ups and downs over the years, you know, but

just determined to stay the course.

And I guess again, it goes back to people who value what we do.

Mm-hmm.

supporting us along the way, so that's great.

And there's, and there, those people out there were eternally grateful for, but,

The vast majority of the land area of Ireland is in the production of grass.

Let's be clear.

You know, I mean it's Look around.

Yeah.

That's what we do here.

We grow grass and then we use the grass to

Whatever.

Feed animals, produce beef and produce dairy and that's it.

And is that compatible with a planet that's warming?

And in our little country here, do we have power to change that?

And I think we do.

I think if farmers can see there's an alternative way, then.

Yeah.

You know, then change can happen.

Or maybe we need to just do less of it, you know?

Yeah.

Or do it in a slightly different way.

Mm-hmm.

Or grow more trees to balance it out as well on all these farms,

you know, which can be done.

That's not a, that's a very, uh, cost-effective, straightforward

way to, uh, help with at least the emissions we're continuing to create.

Yeah.

And also, I mean, the big thing for me is, is from an adaptation point

of view, you know, when we're so reliant on imports, when you're seeing

The Mediterranean and so many places burning.

Burning, it just makes sense to grow our own food.

. Yeah.

Well, what happens if, what happens if we cannot have the food imported?

Yeah.

What happens?

Like there was, was it a couple of years ago when the father

crisis and we were importing hay?

I mean, Because we needed to feed the cattle to produce the food that

was gonna be exported to China.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it doesn't make much sense really, if you think about it.

Yeah.

And it's one thing that frustrates me, you know, that's missing from,

from the dialogue so much is let's forget about the emissions . Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Let's not even care about them.

What's coming down the tracks?

You know What's with extreme weather?

Weather and food production around the world.

You know, but when it's the pain, when the pain hits home, that's

when real change can occur.

The question is, will it be too late?

Yeah, yeah.

When the pain hits.

Yeah.

And with food production, it's not an industry you can just turn on, you

know, like I always say, the sugar beet industry was a, an amazing model

for local food production that had a whole skill set and an energy behind

it, and it was disbanded overnight.

Mm-hmm.

and all of that skill and artistry was lost.

In the space of a couple of years and all and all the mills as well.

You know, there's a mill not too far from where right, where we are and as a whole.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You know, you go again, you go to other countries and they're starting to really

value the local food production more.

We're a little bit behind, but I think we're starting to catch up

and, you know, you have to appreciate the farmer's challenge as well.

Like what are the options and what are the supports and what, what's

being told to them as well by the, the government agencies and what,

which way are they being pushed?

Because there's an agenda, a government agenda too, you know,

and it's going towards, you know, intensification of dairy and beef.

That's the model that the, the, the government or the systems

want to want farmers to go in.

So if you're a farmer, what do you do?

Like, yeah.

How can you combat that?

You know, I spend probably way too much time thinking about that, but , , I

think because the food, like food is something I'm so, so passionate

about, and I think about, you know, the last two or three, two years of

doing this podcast, I've learned a lot.

Like I said to them, they've worked me in real time realize

the severity of what this is.

Yeah.

But then you can't, I can't help.

You know, I know what would be great is if we reduced, you know, dairy farming

and beef farming here in Ireland.

Wouldn't that be great?

But like realistically, that's, you know, we can't just turn it off overnight.

Can't turn it off.

And then I have the thing of . , you know this, I've grown

up here where your farm is.

This is the village I've grown up in.

Yeah.

There's family farms, there's family.

Yeah, absolutely.

There's farmers now who I knew when I was a kid.

And if I did not know those people, I would be well able

to badmouth what they're doing.

And I, but I do know these people and I do understand, you know, this is

the advice they've been given to do.

And I can only imagine, you know, Even if we give them all of the subsidies

and everything in the world tomorrow to change, like the emotional input

to having built that, I can, you know, that gives me such a sympathy and I

find that really difficult, difficult to navigate in terms of like calling

out the dairy and the beef industry.

'cause not the industries, but the people within it.

I'm like, I'm very reluctant to go too hard on them.

Because ultimately it's not their fault, but I understand the responsibility

needs me to, and it's this whole big, I want you to give me some therapy.

This . How have you gotten through this was, I was at a meeting many years ago.

It was a rural development meeting and there was a Department of

Agriculture people there and Chaga people there, and there was a guy and

he was clearly a A about to retire or whatever from either, I can't remember,

was it child said the department.

And they were all talking about intensification and pushing

forward and all the rest.

And this guy got up and he stood up and he said, well, actually, you know, what was

so bad about the traditional Irish farm?

Mm-hmm.

, you know, why are we, you know, heading and following the

American model in production?

Yeah.

Like you think there was a lot of people weren't making okay.

A great deal of money.

Yeah.

But you'll never make a great deal of money in farming.

That's also the bottom line.

Yeah.

And why was it such a bad thing and why do we need to intensify and wasn't it working

and didn't it bring a, a whole pile of community and happiness to so many people?

And we, you know, and I just thought he made a great point and I'd imagine

he must've been close to retirement.

'cause nobody else in that room echoed that, that point, you know?

So.

Yeah.

But it was, it was good.

It was valid.

I, I like, you know, I thought it was a good one.

Yeah.

I think it's, I think it's, I think it's really interesting and I think . I

think the fact, you know, that your farm kinda skipped a generation as well.

I think that's really interesting as well, , because it, you know, 'cause it went

from, it went from being a mixed farm to, and then carried on to being, you know,

kind of a mixed farm or a growing farm.

'cause say like my dad now is, uh, He knows.

So Muchly, you know?

Absolutely.

He grew up in a mixed farm.

Yeah.

And he knows, so he knows how to grow loads of things.

And they would've had chickens and cows and pigs and everything.

Absolutely.

Whereas farmers say 20 years younger than them, they don't have mm-hmm.

, they don't have that knowledge, that skills, that, that all

disappeared in a generation.

And that's another huge loss.

Huge loss.

Absolutely.

Another huge obstacle in terms of if you do want to return to that model.

But I think what you were saying as well there, Kiera, about.

, you know, say like knowing dairy farmers and understanding what they're doing,

like until the messaging on how bad the climate stuff is, . You know, it's coming

crystal clear from the government then nobody is know, nobody is going to change.

I don't even think things around that.

I think it's more from them a business perspective.

Like I look at what's happening and I think that's just, that

is just a bad business decision.

Like understanding, looking at the market and how it's gonna go.

All the huge amount of inve of going into it now, but the huge amount

of investment that goes into it.

Like it actually just doesn't even make business sense to

operate a business like that.

But that's what I, and then you look at the other side at the beef farmers and

like, they're not like, Any beef farmer around this village has another job.

Mm-hmm.

To actually, so that they can make an income.

So putting all that money in for someone to not even make an income

out of it, is a complete waste.

Mm-hmm.

Like, what are we doing?

Yeah.

And it just, yeah.

Really . Really irks me.

. Yeah.

It hits home.

But it, you know, you mentioned there, the, the, the off-farm income and all

that, but the people who do that, you know, they want to walk the fields.

They want to be out in nature as well.

And then you have on the other side going, no, let's get bigger.

Let's get in intense, let's go bang, bang, bang.

And whenever you do that, you know, nature doesn't fit into the box.

Yeah.

Where intensification works long term.

Yeah.

It just doesn't.

And that's where we've gone with so many other crops.

Yeah.

And with animals, it's just . Heart wrenching to see what's happening

in that respect, you know?

And it just, yeah, it really saddens me.

'cause it's a huge pressure on people that doesn't, that doesn't need to be there.

And it's gonna take absolute years to undo it.

Like, It really is, and it's really visible when you live in the countryside.

It's, it's very easy to look around and see the, the toll it's taken on

people, whether they know it or not.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely indeed.

Ah, that feels good.

, . Um, so I suppose maybe to, maybe to wrap up in terms of, in terms of really

bringing it back, um, this has been some big issues we've talked about

for individuals, you know, in terms of making . Making good food choices

or making good decisions around that.

What kind of, what kind of advice can you give to people if they want to, you

know, in their own small little way?

Um, Make a difference?

Well, I think that the biggest thing anybody can do is renew

the connection with the land that we're walking around on.

Because once you start to appreciate that you, your perspective on how things

are changes, you know, so, and growing food is a great medium to do that.

To grow your first carrot or to grow a tomato plant and harvest it,

you realize this is nature at work.

It's a miracle and it's amazing.

And once that mindset starts to filter through, And all

sorts of other changes happen.

So I think getting out and planting something, planting a few beans, maybe

not jacking the bean stock style stuff, but just a few beans and, and growing raw.

Nothing to have the cards around now,

well you do that too, but , um, you know, and I think that's, that's, that's key.

I mean, eat more vegetables, uh, climate footprint of.

You know, plants is a lot less than of animals.

So by default, you're shrinking your client, you know, your, your, your

emissions that you're responsible for.

Eat more locally grown vegetables if you can because they have

a smaller carbon footprint.

And if you can eat organic, because that improves biodiversity amazingly.

So, you know, so, and that supports a healthier ecosystem, which in turn

helps trap carbon and helps deal with the climate crisis that we're in.

You know, so this is, as you start, as you said at the beginning,

Dara, that people have control over their food to, to a large extent.

Um, and if you get past the glitzy shiny wrappers in the supermarket,

you can, uh, you know, you can make choices that really make a difference.

Like, really?

Do they really do, you know?

And I believe that.

Yeah.

And I think for, like, for me, it's great, you know, if you do buy that,

you know, organic or you know the local place you're buying from, it's

not just the climate stuff, it's

The biodiversity is No, no.

That farm that I've bought from.

Yeah, yeah.

That has thriving healthy soil and that has space for nature and also is

probably employing people locally as well.

You know?

And it's, and it's, it's, yeah, it's a lovely, a lovely feeling.

And biodiversity, you can relate to it on a local level.

Exactly.

You can relate to the bees and the butterflies and the birds and all

of these things that you see that make up the area that we share.

You know, we share the planet, planet with these creatures, you know, so

Definitely that's a great piece of advice.

Great.

Okay.

I have one question before we let you go.

Kenneth.

I would be interested to know as to whether you use any of the terms

like climate activist or climate advocate to describe yourself.

And even if not, what kind of, you know, why you do a lot of great work on, on the

Green Earth, organic social media, you know, to educate people about the impact

that supporting an organic firm can make.

Um, , but what kind of joy?

Like what, what spurs you want to do that?

Is there any joy that you have found in this journey of setting up this business?

Is the professor?

Yeah, so I don't have a, a label or anything.

I suppose I'm a climate advocate.

Mm-hmm.

, if you wanted to call it something, an activist, I'd

like to be more of an activist.

Yeah.

I think maybe if I can step back from the business a bit, some stage, that

will be something I definitely will be.

Yeah.

Um, the joy I take from it.

I love . But I love nature.

I love planting trees.

I love seeing it.

I love seeing the fact we can grow crops and have nature at the same time.

Yeah.

I take a lot of joy from that.

Plus the fact that there's people out there that are, you know, um, . I

suppose by the fact that they're supporting us are maybe learning

something or picking something up or changing their mindset as well.

And that's really important for me and for the business as a whole too.

So I think, you know, little by little we can make the changes.

We all need to do it together, so more people do it the better.

And that's what I think.

Definitely.

I hope the backdrop, the sounds in the backdrop are picking up.

'cause it's such a nice, yeah, we had swallows flying overhead and a

few, I dunno if they're finches or what And there's not a, there's not a

chafin there tweeting away behind us.

It's absolute.

I think we need to record all our climbing plex.

Well, just what we should have done actually, lads is.

That thing there, that machine behind us, it's an actual flatbed weeder, and

you get to lie down on it and weeded.

So we could have actually all lied down for this episode.

Two . Yeah, . Um, we better wrap it up.

Yeah, guys, get back to growing.

So that, that is it for this special episode from from Green Earth Organics.

Kenneth, thanks a million for chat.

Thank you guys.

So if people do want to check out, check.

Yourselves out.

What, where do they go?

Please go to our website, green Earth Organics, ie.

And you can order whatever you see, all our great Irish selection there,

all the plastic free stuff, and we deliver everywhere in the country.

Brilliant.

Please support us.

We do appreciate it, and it does make a difference.

And we'll be harvesting your tomatoes very soon, which we need.

We had one or two there before we started recording and absolutely delicious.

So thank you and thanks to you both for, for the, the opportunity.

To talk link about something, but put a link to the, to the website and the show

notes anyway, for anyone that needs to find it, but has been absolutely lovely.

Yeah.

And to the Instagram page where there is just brilliant, brilliant, uh,

information and updates on food production on a very local level, but also the big

picture stuff, which is, which is great.

Um, so that's it for this episode.

If you want to follow the climate alarm clock, you can follow us on Twitter.

At the climbers alarm and on Instagram, on Facebook at climbers alarm clock.

And if you do want to support the work that we do, you can do that.

Um, find me a coffee.com/the climbers alarm.

We'll be back with our fifth season in.

September or October.

So keep an eye out on our socials for details as September, November.

See when we see you . Thanks a million guys.

Great, thanks Kenneth.

Thanks very much.

Thank you so much.