Emmy-winning editor Charles Olivier reveals how he restructured HBO's Surviving Ohio State and what it's like getting notes from George Clooney.

Charles has cut some of the biggest docs of the last decade—The Jinx, Magic and Bird, The Redeem Team. Surviving Ohio State, produced by Clooney and directed by Oscar winner Eva Orner, exposes decades of abuse in college athletics. In this episode, Charles breaks down how he pitched a new vision to the production team, why he structures documentaries like symphonies instead of three-act narratives, and his advice for editors finding their voice.

What You'll Learn:

• How documentary editors get hired (the "fresh eyes" audition)
• The editor as "midwife" to the director's vision
• Structuring docs like music—themes, movements, dynamics
• Editing trauma narratives without losing emotional resonance
• Finding your film's "grain" (why the lead isn't always who you expect)
• What it's actually like working with George Clooney

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction

03:00 What is Surviving Ohio State?

09:00 How Charles got hired

12:00 The editor as "midwife"

14:00 Career path: film school to HBO

17:00 Why relationships matter more than subject matter

19:00 The message of the film

24:00 Layers of betrayal: institutions vs. individuals

28:00 Structuring documentary like a symphony

34:00 Finding the emotional center

37:00 Trusting yourself as an editor

41:00 Collaboration: when to push back

44:00 Working with George Clooney

49:00 Advice for emerging editors

52:00 DocuView Déjà Vu: FYRE (Netflix)

About Charles Olivier:

Emmy and Peabody Award-winning editor. Credits: Surviving Ohio State (HBO), The Jinx, The Redeem Team (Netflix), Magic and Bird. Based in France.

If you're enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

Welcome to Documentary First, an inside look at documentary filmmaking, the art, heart and

hard work of documentary filmmaking.

2

I'm your host, Christian Taylor, a documentary filmmaker myself.

3

And every week I sit down with storytellers who capture real life on camera one frame at a

time so we can learn from their experiences, sharpen our craft and stay inspired on our

4

own filmmaking journeys.

5

Now today we're joined by a filmmaker who is actually in my favorite country of

6

France.

7

His name is Charles Olivier, an Emmy and Peebody award winning editor and writer with more

than 20 years in film, television and audio.

8

More recently, Charles edited the hard hitting HBO Max documentary, Surviving Ohio State,

directed by Oscar winner Eva Orner.

9

Do you say her name, Orner?

10

How do you say it, Orner?

11

And produced by George Clooney.

12

a powerful and deeply emotional film that premiered at Tribeca and exposes decades of

abuse with Ohio State's athletic programs.

13

Charles is known for his emotionally rich, musically attuned storyteller shaped by his

background in music composition.

14

And you felt his touch on projects like The Jinx, The Redeemed Team, Magic and Bird, and

Deadline.

15

He's collaborated with HBO, Netflix, PBS, and Amazon and splits his time between France,

New York, and Los Angeles.

16

Charles, welcome to the show.

17

I'm super glad that you're here.

18

So nice to have you.

19

great to be here.

20

All right.

21

Well, before we dive into all of that incredible work, I'd really love to start with

surviving Ohio State is a powerful, sensitive story.

22

And I just finished watching it like, just like, dunno, 15 minutes ago, I told you, and I,

I, it was hard to watch.

23

got to tell you, um, it was, um, it was very emotional and I did at the end get very

angry.

24

I have to tell you, I had an emotional reaction at the end.

25

I won't give that away, but I will tell you, I think I had the reaction you wanted me to

have at the end.

26

um Yeah, I mean, it's a bittersweet project for me.

27

You know, in a lot of ways, it was wonderful that these men now got the recognition that

they deserved and that the film's been well received.

28

ah But I was...

29

uh

30

You know, what's hard with this film is that it's not like there was a big revelation of

unknown material.

31

Like these stories were out there.

32

You know, what we did was just kind of amassed them together and organized them and

structured them in such a way that there was a story.

33

But what's heartbreaking.

34

ah And what was an aspect of the story was that all of these men, hundreds into thousands

of men, were consciously ignored or mocked or pushed to the side.

35

And they had to not just sort of go through whatever the healing process was and remained

for.

36

sexual abuse victim.

37

But then, to then when they come forward to be rejected by people, which was nuts.

38

It was crazy.

39

And so, yeah.

40

So we've started to jump ahead actually, and we haven't really told her.

41

Yes.

42

I mean, it's my fault actually.

43

I should have asked you to give the log line or tell a little bit about what Surviving

Ohio State is because people may not have seen the movie.

44

So why don't you tell us a little bit about what it is and then talk to us about what drew

you to this project.

45

um and why you decided to work on it in the first place.

46

Yeah, I'm sort of notorious for the why use one word when 10 will do.

47

So log lines can often be somewhat novel length.

48

But the story in a nutshell is that of kind of one more.

49

university sexual abuse scandal that involves athletes.

50

um And so these were athletes who through the 70s and 80s and 90s were the victims of a

doctor, a team doctor, oh very much like what happened at Penn, very much what happened at

51

Michigan.

52

The difference here being that these were men.

53

And that ended up making all the difference.

54

And so what we do is we kind of delve into what the story was and then start to get into

what happened.

55

And yeah, so and it was it was it was crazy.

56

You know, it was it was it was crazy to see.

57

ah

58

so many, I mean, so many emotions against it.

59

But but and we can get into that.

60

But but that's that's basically the story.

61

So it's they they they came out of Ohio State where they were largely were following

wrestlers and a couple of athletes from other sports.

62

But the majority of it's through the wrestling team.

63

And

64

how did this, you know, I mean, even before, did you get drawn to the project?

65

Like why all of a sudden did this documentary come to be in the first place?

66

Sure.

67

So John Wirtime, who's a sports illustrator writer, had been contacted uh a year before

Eva started working on it.

68

Sorry, Eva Warner is the director.

69

Before Eva was working on it, he had written a piece about Ohio State and sort of what

happened and why aren't people talking about this.

70

um

71

From there, George Clooney and his partner Grant Heslov found that article, wanted to tell

that story.

72

And so then they went to, and then David Glasser, who runs a studio called 101 Studio.

73

And then that whole group brought in Eva.

74

then they went, and so it was kind of step by step.

75

Everybody wanted to tell this story.

76

And some people for different reasons.

77

Eva came in really with no background in American sports, collegiate American sports in

the Big Ten.

78

She's Australian, but um was very much drawn to this being a story about kind of the guy

code.

79

Like, why was the story that um

80

You know, you're looking at over a thousand victims in total.

81

mean, just numbers that are like you can't really even wrap your head around.

82

But so why did this happen?

83

Like, how was the university complicit through all of that?

84

And then sort of what happened afterwards?

85

Like, why was there so much silence?

86

ah So she wanted to get in on that.

87

And then, you know, there was this other aspect of the story that we got into a bit.

88

which is Jim Jordan, who's a very powerful Republican congressman from Ohio, was an

assistant wrestling coach at the time that this was happening and, you know, likely knew

89

much of it himself and remained quiet.

90

You know, everybody kind of had their reasons at the time.

91

And so we wanted to get into what are the reasons that if you're a man and this happened.

92

You're going to be quiet, probably yourself, and not report it.

93

And then what happens when

94

Yeah.

95

Yeah.

96

So, and then what was your, why were you drawn to this project?

97

How did you get involved?

98

I initially came into this project as what they call fresh eyes.

99

So um the project, they'd actually started cutting it for HBO.

100

um And it was kind of moving in one direction.

101

And I think they just, they weren't really happy with what they had received and wanted it

to go.

102

in a different way.

103

uh And part of the problem is when you do have a lot of people involved in a film, uh

getting people to sign off on what direction we're going can be its own game.

104

But I think uh it was also people weren't totally sure what it is we wanted to tell.

105

And so they spent the summer sort of interviewing editors.

106

And so I did that sort of compare it to flash dance where you kind of, you you watch.

107

mean, so I'll go back.

108

But so I watched what they had cut and um and it's it was just baffling to me um the abuse

in that story, but just also

109

why there was this wake of silence about what to me was an incomprehensible number of

victims.

110

And so that's what drew me to it.

111

I have two little boys.

112

ah I grew up basically in the exact same time period that these athletes were there.

113

I grew up in Texas and went to a big school and just know that whole machismo code.

114

ah I played football the whole game.

115

uh so it really struck me at a very personal level.

116

ah And then for them to try to flip the script and redefine what a lot of these words

meant like strength and grit and resilience and all these things.

117

uh But in a...

118

in a way that was self-referenced and about healing really, really resonated with me as

well.

119

And so when I saw what they had, the footage, I just saw a story that I thought was

incredible.

120

And I loved what Eva was doing with her interviews.

121

so.

122

and you were selected because...

123

You know, I don't know that they were very happy with it.

124

No, I was selected, think, because uh when I saw it, I sort of I go a little crazy when I

kind of want to do something.

125

And so I had kind of written up what I thought would be a good outline and.

126

ah And at that time I was talking with two of the producers, um Rebecca Zoyan and Elliot

Goldberg, and kind of pitched them my idea.

127

And then they put together a Zoom with everybody on it.

128

And I kind of pitched it to everyone.

129

And it seemed like it got sort of everyone's approval.

130

And then...

131

uh

132

And so, yeah, so then they agreed to kind of let me on.

133

I was and uh a big part of it, too, was that I just got on the phone with Eva oh and we

talked a lot and I just wanted to hear what she saw uh and what the story was that she

134

wanted to tell.

135

And I think in a lot of ways, that's probably.

136

selected.

137

I think it's one thing to kind of like try and impose an image, but like for me it's

always like you're kind of a midwife, you know, to a director to try and help them create

138

this project.

139

That is a fantastic analogy because I think that is such a perfect analogy for an

editor-director relationship because you do have to be working together to deliver this

140

beautiful baby together and it is such a defined effort and you have to be on the same

page working in rhythm with one another in order to...

141

for this to happen.

142

So m I completely understand the idea of you pitching something and talking with her and

getting on the same page and her making sure that she is comfortable with your vision and

143

you being sure that you can deliver on her vision.

144

so that's pretty cool actually that they were sort of auditioning editors and you had your

opportunity to

145

give your vision and the opportunity to meet with um the director.

146

That's a really, I think that's interesting for our audience to hear.

147

Our audience oftentimes likes to hear, how do I get into that position?

148

And I was wondering that myself, you've cut a lot of things for a lot of big uh films.

149

How did you get to that level in your career to begin with?

150

Can you recall how you made that level jump?

151

I mean, I don't know.

152

I think some people have the kind of secret shoots and ladders special ticket up.

153

Mine's really just been kind of incrementally climbing.

154

So I came in, I went to film school.

155

And then what happened was that I ended up getting sick when I was in film school.

156

and didn't wanna go home to do treatment.

157

And so ended up staying um in New York where I was going to school, but needed a job,

needed to do something.

158

um And there is nothing like a documentary filmmaker like the people who were teaching at

school to like get that low paid.

159

grad student to like, to cut my film.

160

And so that's kind of how I started.

161

I just started cutting a bunch of films.

162

And so I was cutting all kinds of, all kinds of movies.

163

And then that led to me doing music videos.

164

And so I was doing music videos and cutting like low budget documentaries for a while.

165

A really great editor.

166

ah Sam Pollard who's done a bunch of Spike Lee stuff.

167

I started apprentice editing for him and so I like you know kind of that was a doorway at

that time that you could actually get into an edit room and so you know and I would just

168

hang around and just talk with him and and you end up just kind of meeting some people.

169

And then trying to think like where the big leap came.

170

I mean, ultimately the big, big leap came is when I had been doing that for a while.

171

I had been doing a lot of kind of leftist sort of more socialist civil rights type of

documentaries.

172

And so HBO,

173

and Ezra Edelman, who was at that time, he was a sports director at HBO and they were

doing a documentary on the Brooklyn Dodgers.

174

And so I came in to do like the Jackie Robinson part, because that was kind of my scene

and I love that.

175

And we ended up doing that film.

176

It just kind of got bigger and bigger.

177

And so he and I worked together and

178

And that film did really well.

179

And then he and I did another film together on Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.

180

And I'm not like a sports guy, which is the genius of it all.

181

that's like, and so I started.

182

added.

183

It would frustrate producers because ultimately they would like, could track the spectrum

of emotions that went across their faces.

184

They were sort of confused when they would say like, well, just, you know.

185

But you weren't focusing on the sports, you were focusing on the story.

186

Yeah, for me it was always about the relationships ah and in all earnestness that was

always what I would say.

187

because that's the way it was in my World War II storytelling.

188

Everybody always sees the war and I'm like, I'm interested in the people and the

relationships and how the war acted, how everyone lived because we don't talk about that.

189

And I think that is what is really interesting, you know, and that's what's lasting

actually.

190

that's, that's interesting.

191

Yeah.

192

And it was really interesting.

193

So like Ezra, I adore him.

194

um And that's what we would talk about is that people are going to watch your movie for

such an infinitesimally small percentage of their life.

195

What they're going to do is remember it.

196

And so you've got to think about what is it you want them to remember.

197

and more than anything, it's about relationships or moments.

198

And those relationships can be between two people or that relationship can be between like

me and you on camera.

199

um It's those human moments.

200

The backgrounds all sort of change, but the humanity in it is the thing that we're

tracking

201

Well, I was going to ask you this later on, but we're here now.

202

So what is uh the message that you want people to walk away with from this surviving Ohio

State film?

203

Um

204

It's tricky to like encapsulate this movie in a singular message because I think there are

people that need to be held to account.

205

And so I think anger is a ah correct response to have to it.

206

um You know, these...

207

sports programs just kind of exist apart from the abuse or any of that just on these piles

of young athletes, men and women.

208

And the amount of money that's going through these schools is like approaching obscene to

me.

209

um And um for these athletes, they're

210

children, you know, and they're going face to face with what I see as just massive power,

just massive, but like so much money, so much just kind of institutional power.

211

you know, boys and girls kind of are going into that totally unprepared for what's there

for them.

212

So

213

I guess what to me the message is, is it's largely guy focused, um I would say, probably.

214

And so, um you know, one of the most interesting characters in the movie is a mom.

215

You know, she's a journalist and she's a, you know, she's a voice who's setting a lot of

the context for the story, but she's a mom and she's, you know, and also she loves Ohio

216

State.

217

And so that's a conflict for her, but she.

218

She said something that I felt was amazing, which is like you tell your daughter, like

when they go to these schools, like, you to be, you to like you ready them for these

219

things, but you don't think to tell your son like what to do in these power dynamics.

220

ah And so I hope what the message is, is sort of what the men went through.

221

And I think it's what I referred to earlier, which is, you know, it's important to

222

to the definitions of a lot of the terms being thrown around about what it is to be tough,

know, tough it out or what it is to be a team member, to be a man, you know, and I am

223

just, I'm so, we talk about like, we were just talking about like,

224

just so humbled and inspired by these by these athletes.

225

Yeah, yeah.

226

Well, and what I walked away from this film, if you want to know, I was...

227

I know you're much better doing this than me.

228

First of all, it was educational.

229

It was educational in a lot of ways.

230

You know that these schools, colleges profit immensely off of the backs of student

athletes.

231

It is disgusting.

232

And they are finally now being recompensed, but it's also disgusting how that's working

out.

233

I don't think that's helping either.

234

um But ah it's a big problem.

235

you know, so you...

236

A, now C, you demonstrate how that money situation with schools profiteering off of these

young kids, how that is affecting these kids and the power dynamics that they're feeling.

237

So I thought you explained that really well, how powerless they feel, particularly the

ones that are getting scholarships that have no other way of going to college.

238

How powerless, yeah.

239

truly are powerful.

240

no voice and they're just so afraid.

241

And then, you know, how innocent and naive they are and how easy they are to take

advantage of.

242

you know, we suffer in silence and it is a male problem, but it is also a female problem.

243

And so I think it's important to tell our kids, male and female, that, you know, when

you...

244

when there's this thing inside of your gut that makes you feel uncomfortable when another

person says something or does something, you have to talk about it.

245

You have to tell someone.

246

And I think that was what I took away from that is to tell my own kids.

247

Um, and you know, and to think of myself is that, know, you've got to talk and not hide

things, um, you know, for your own safety and sanity.

248

mean, when you see how

249

damaging that was to the people that you interviewed for the rest of their lives.

250

you know, at the end you interviewed or you interviewed someone where they talked about

how um it decimated the rest of their lives and also the other kids around them with

251

drinking and divorces and all the other things they lift listed off.

252

um After their experience in that sport with that one doctor, um it's, you know,

253

Like I said, eye-opening, very educational, and it's unfortunate that these boys had to

pay the price for us to learn that.

254

Completely.

255

I I think I totally agree with you.

256

And I think watching this as a father of my movies, this is really the one that I want my

sons to watch.

257

And it's probably the most harrowing of all of them.

258

But because it's exactly as you're saying, it's the one that lays the foundation for

conversations that are ugly and hard and absolutely.

259

necessary, that you need to be able to find a place where you can have this conversation.

260

The problem, I think, that really messed with these guys is some of them did try to talk.

261

wasn't just like, mean, I think the movie wasn't really, I mean, in a way, it wasn't about

this doctor.

262

You're going to find these sorts of things, these people, unfortunately.

263

But.

264

It was the levels of betrayal after that.

265

Everyone involved would just come through.

266

were supposed to be protecting them.

267

their fathers and their sort of parents away from their family.

268

One of the biggest difficulties, I'm sorry to catch you off, one of the biggest

difficulties with athletes in particular to get to the level where they are, they have

269

been so focused on this, is that they're so much more naive than a lot of other children

arriving at the university.

270

This has been everything.

271

And they put all of their trust into a coach.

272

know, this coach, just, mean, you know, we were talking about the military.

273

It's, very similar, you know, and that is a value, like a true value to them is to, is to

follow and be a team member and be a part of something bigger than them.

274

And that was systematically used against them.

275

Um, you know, like if you really want to help the team, you won't say anything.

276

If you really want to help your teammate and their heads just, and they couldn't get away

from it, you know?

277

And, and so I think just the level of distrust is so deep in them.

278

And so for them to then trust the director was huge, so huge.

279

And that's what.

280

And then you get even deeper where you get to the Jim Jordan situation where it's a, you

know, a Congressman in your state.

281

And not only is he lying, but he's then got a pressure campaign where he's calling the

players, you know, and telling them not to say anything and then yet lying about it.

282

I mean, unbelievable.

283

just and lying about it on television, you know, just like, it just, just, it's so hard.

284

you know, I, like, just as we're talking, I'm trying to think of anything that, that I've

ever lived through that like, you know, would be that much of just like a house of mirrors

285

just crashing.

286

Just every, everything that defines your identity just, just broke.

287

And exactly, Jim Jordan, was seen, even if people were Democrats, even if people weren't

of his political party, looked at him as someone who had integrity.

288

This was even knowing that he was likely complicit or, you know.

289

let it go.

290

They were like, okay, well, I can see it.

291

He was the coach.

292

It was for the team.

293

Maybe he was a victim here too.

294

And then to see that, no, he was, he was opportunistic like a lot of these other people

and they used you.

295

yeah, anyway, so that I think, so that does elicit real anger um and a desire to change.

296

So yeah.

297

And now I want to talk a little bit about sort of the rhythm of the film.

298

You do have a musical background and this film fills, um you know, one of the beautiful

things about it is it flows really well.

299

It has sort of a musical, the music is there is music and subtle music in the background.

300

um And how does that musical background influence the editing choices, you know, where

tone and pacing carry so much of that?

301

you know, emotional weight.

302

Sure, well, thank you for saying that.

303

That is, that's my, that's, I think I had to say this, that's kind of how I approach most

of the documentaries I work on is to look at them structurally from probably more of a

304

musical perspective than...

305

kind of classic um three act narrative structure construction.

306

Sure, I I think first off with documentary, there's the reality of you're telling a story

that's fairly unorthodox from the beginning and you're coming at it with just a big grab

307

bag.

308

all kinds of different things.

309

Maybe it's got a lot of archival, but only in one section.

310

um Maybe some of it's got to be narrated.

311

Maybe some of it's going to need a journalist.

312

Maybe you've got access here.

313

And it might span however many decades or different timelines or you name it.

314

um

315

And I think what can often happen is that if you kind of go at it with there's a right and

a wrong way to tell this story, uh it brings a kind of brittle texture or quality to me.

316

And people try and find the certainty by just cutting sequences.

317

um And you can start to feel it.

318

Stuff is just fast.

319

They're just trying to load in information.

320

And so kind of early on, I started to look at documentaries from different structural

points of view.

321

And one that I use a lot is like classical symphonies.

322

This is all going to sound insanely pretentious.

323

it's not that I think like, oh, you

324

Brahms would be the perfect, though sometimes Brahms is great, um but it's to look at what

symphonic form is trying to do.

325

And it's really, it's the exact same thing that a film is trying to do, which is you're

trying to sculpt emotion and engagement, tone uh and response over time.

326

And the...

327

I will say what I learned in my own film is that our emotions in a movie ride the wave of

that music.

328

And so the story is there, but it is that music that carries us through, I think.

329

Yeah.

330

And so if you kind of understand that foundation, then everything else starts to kind of

fall within it.

331

As you start to think about, what are the themes that play?

332

And what do those sound like?

333

And sound can be, what do those sound like in terms of voice?

334

What do those sound like in terms of sound effects?

335

And...

336

What do those feel like?

337

ah And so for me with like Ohio State, I mean, we can get into some of the music that I

was actually listening to when I was cutting it, but like more than anything, like with

338

the themes, it was like we've been talking about, it was about people kind of facing off

with institutions.

339

And so one felt like I wanted something that was warm.

340

intimate, and then I wanted something that was vast and cold and ah just unstoppable.

341

Something that had a lot of air on it that was a very kind of cold pattern um and then to

mix it with, ah you know, trust and love and

342

had something intimate and cozy in there.

343

Yeah.

344

And so we kind of went back and we were doing like aerials and things like that to try and

gain that space.

345

And then I knew like I was structurally wanted to kind of get it down into a relationship.

346

And so we start the film with one of the wrestlers, this guy, Dan.

347

um And he's to me he was just this really engaging guy.

348

um And his journey is one that like you can look at just kind of classically art

narratively.

349

But also he I felt just I know I just liked him.

350

just like I like I like spending time with him and then he had this relationship with this

other wrestler Mike.

351

And then it was kind of like that relationship was the one that was going to kind of carry

it through as this bead of intimacy as all this stuff was happening.

352

uh And to go back to like music analogies, it's I guess with this film, it probably broke

into about four parts.

353

uh And so that first one is like setting up themes.

354

uh

355

setting the stage for a lot of what was going to happen, but trying to do it in a way that

was kind of trying to pull you forward and pull you in.

356

And then probably the second part was to go deeper.

357

We're going to meet a lot more of the athletes and kind of break out.

358

more into what their values are, what they envision as where their lives are going and

that kind of thing.

359

uh And still kind of going back to Dan and back to Mike and seeing how all of these people

are the same.

360

And as that moves forward,

361

then the story just gets bigger and bigger.

362

then we're starting to just expand it and amplify it.

363

And so it was that feeling of...

364

almost comedy was was another part of it that started to come in, which was like it was

ridiculous that this uh predator was just gaining more and more power.

365

And.

366

They just kept going and it just kept going and just kept going.

367

You would.

368

Just get lost.

369

mean, the thing is, is like it's very easy to get lost in the numbers of all the.

370

victims.

371

so, and it wasn't just like trying to put a face on a number, it was really trying to

figure out how do we keep the emotional resonance through something that just becomes

372

incomprehensible.

373

Yeah, how do you make it relatable when it's so big and vast you can't even get your head

around it?

374

Totally.

375

a lot of it, like Eva had captured these incredible interviews um with men who hadn't let

even their

376

And they were so articulate.

377

They were so um honest.

378

And, you know, I thought they clearly articulated some of the most difficult things in a

way and personal things without embarrassment.

379

mean, some shame was there, of course, but just strength.

380

There was such strength there.

381

um

382

and you see that they had to have talked among themselves and worked through a lot in

order to be able to publicly in front of a camera uh share what they did.

383

Yeah, no, yeah, I totally agree with that.

384

ah And for me, I think what I was happiest with were the moments in which you're just

staying with somebody and letting them talk and letting them have the space to have

385

silence and come to grips with some of that and 100 % kind of work through their feelings.

386

uh

387

And so that, think, it was like trying to open up the space for those interviews.

388

Yeah, I mean, that was really, that was really powerful for sure.

389

That's them That was me just getting out of the way.

390

Well, I mean, you are known for balancing like meticulous structure with emotional

honesty.

391

I mean, that is something that you have a reputation for.

392

um You know, what when you sit down with a new project, what guides you more the logic of

the narrative, right, which is important or the feeling that you want people to walk away.

393

Sure, what I do is I get, I mean, the whole reason I kind of came into documentary is that

I love.

394

for me.

395

uh

396

So when I get into a project, I get into a project.

397

I like, you and I read and I do all this research and what can happen in that process.

398

And you know, as a director that it's very easy to lose sight of what some of the

emotional core is.

399

it's just totally.

400

I learned to love this and takes you down all these alleys and you just want to keep

learning and learning and learning.

401

Yeah, I get it.

402

And what I try to do, I don't have any boards up, but what I try to do is when I am

structuring is, is I'm also just keeping track of what my emotional response is when I

403

come across something.

404

Yeah.

405

And so I'll either make a note of what I like that this isn't for the director or

anything.

406

I mean, we might talk about it.

407

but it's really just what my sort of initial response is to something.

408

um And I think there's a point at which you come to, and this is by dint of having not

done this for a long time, that you start to just trust yourself.

409

ah because what will happen, and this will circle back, but is that you'll try to edit it

the, in quotes, right way.

410

Meaning like you're trying to keep somebody else's voice going and it's like, well, I

think the director wants it like this.

411

ah And so what I always tell directors is that like when you hire me, like where you're

hiring me.

412

you know, and so I'm going to try and trust myself and do things.

413

And, and for sure, let's, you know, we're talking and it's not to like box them out.

414

But, you know, it's like, when you're in it, you've got to just try not to second guess.

415

oh

416

and just to be able to create.

417

And so what I'll do is note my responses, and then as I'm structuring, I try and lay that

stuff out in a kind of logical way.

418

Because it may have been weeks ago that I looked at some.

419

Yeah, 100%.

420

Yeah, I I have like.

421

a gazillion different little colors and like it's all very bipolar looking.

422

mean, um but for me, even if you don't kind of just go back to it, it's just the process

of doing it.

423

ah

424

just breaks you free.

425

And like you're on your feet and you're trying to see where it's going and you'll start to

find what you think is that central line that might bend here and there, but you'll start

426

to find it.

427

And you start to cope with that grain.

428

Mm-hmm.

429

then, mean, but you are an editor.

430

And so then you sit with the director and they said they don't like it.

431

have to go back and do it again.

432

But you start to then understand organically how to.

433

have to come to the table with something.

434

Like you said, they hired you.

435

You have to trust yourself and you come to the table with something.

436

And as a director myself, when I hire people with a certain skill, my desire is for them

to bring their own thing because we as a team are going to work together to take

437

everybody's best stuff and we're going to put it in the soup pot and we're going to mix it

all up and see what comes out because that's how you get the best stuff.

438

you know.

439

Completely?

440

No, completely.

441

That's exactly it.

442

that's best way I think.

443

And the story you said about trusting yourself is so true and I want our listeners to

understand this.

444

You do have to know yourself well enough um to say, I like this.

445

This is good.

446

I have a certain taste.

447

You don't have to be like everybody else.

448

You are your own person.

449

and what you like and what you think is good is what's valuable.

450

And it'll make you different than Charlie.

451

It will make you different than Christian.

452

And that's actually what's good because that will bring a new thing to the table.

453

um Right?

454

completely.

455

And I think when people are selecting different um team members for their film, you know,

if they're doing it ah well, is that they're doing exactly what you're saying.

456

that so, you know, one editor, one composer or one

457

production designer, cinematographer, whoever may be right for one project and not right

for the other.

458

um And as I say that, there's also, I wanna be cautious against this idea that I have my

vision and world be damned.

459

This is what we're doing because, and you hired me so too bad.

460

It's really about...

461

uh

462

being very loose in what you're holding, you you need to like have a world and a voice

that you want to lean into and then be, you know, able to go back and break it all.

463

And that, and it sucks, you know, initially, but like a lot of the time when you get those

notes, you're like, oh God.

464

Yeah.

465

Yeah.

466

And like, yeah, let's try it.

467

Yeah.

468

I remember one conversation with my editor, Bill Evil, who you actually remind me a little

bit of.

469

Um, you know, I said to him, this was when you watch my film, there's a place in there

where it's at the beginning of act two.

470

And we started with the bombs and the explosions and he gave me three big explosions.

471

And I was like, that's great, but I really want four.

472

And he's like, no, it's not.

473

No, it needs to be three.

474

And I was like, you know what I want?

475

four.

476

Can you please give me four?

477

And he, and he didn't want to.

478

And I just like, just do it, you know, and he did, and it worked, you know, and there was

another instance like that where he just didn't want to do it.

479

And I was like, please just give me the benefit of the doubt.

480

Just do it.

481

And he did, and it works and vice versa.

482

It happens vice versa.

483

But I think, you know, in a director editor relationship, it must be like that.

484

I think.

485

No, completely.

486

No, it's all.

487

I think that is why people do keep working together.

488

You have to have that trust relationship to say it's okay.

489

Yeah.

490

It's about like, and it's when you get those notes and you're like, it's like you wanted

it just to work.

491

But there's probably a part of you that's like, it's probably not working.

492

But it's like, you wanted it to work.

493

And they said it's not working and you know, they're right.

494

Just be wrong.

495

Just be wrong.

496

Just because please just love this so we can move on.

497

But yeah, no, but it's not that.

498

kid part of us that turns in a sloppy copy.

499

Now, you know, this is my rough draft and you're desperately wanting to say, my gosh,

that's perfect.

500

You don't need to redo it.

501

You know, and it's part A, I'm lazy.

502

I don't want to redo it.

503

And part B, I want you to think I'm so good that I don't need to rewrite anything, you

know.

504

That's funny.

505

Okay, well, I'm gonna change the subject.

506

We need to wrap things up pretty soon, but I want to ask you a couple of other questions.

507

I cannot let you off the hook without telling you what it's like to ah work with George

Clooney.

508

sure.

509

Um, so it's interesting.

510

So with, with big name produce, I mean, they're, they're always going to be pulled in a

gazillion different directions.

511

And so the first time I met all the people was on my first zoom.

512

And I had no idea I was meeting all these people, but so you're on your first zoom.

513

And so it's, yeah, it's like Clooney and Grant Hasloff, his partner, and David Glasner,

who's like this uber big producer.

514

and it's just Zoom is miserable.

515

It's just faces looking at you if you're lucky, or maybe they're kind of looking over

there and it's brutal.

516

oh go ahead and you're like, oh okay.

517

And it's that quiet and I do, I feel like it's flash dance where you just hear the hard

soul choose on the wood and then you like, okay, dance.

518

Come on, let's see it.

519

And then you kind of finish your thing and no one says much and they're all like, hold on

one sec.

520

And then uh they like thank you and you're like, oh god.

521

I didn't get it.

522

I know, that's kill me, kill me now.

523

uh But so then, but he was very polite.

524

And uh because I mean, he's an actor, so he knows it.

525

But when he came sort of back in, when they came back in on notes, he and Grant would kind

of send them together.

526

And uh

527

The thing that I remember was at the end, he had found, he was kind of like doing his own,

I guess, research and uh unbeknownst to anybody, but he would find these YouTube clips.

528

And so like I would get a YouTube clip from him as like, maybe this could go.

529

in this one section.

530

you're like, OK, I've just got a message from George Clooney about, but it's not going to

work.

531

It's it's the wrong time.

532

And you're like, oh, thank you so much.

533

I see why you like it.

534

And that's a different time period.

535

um And so I think we maybe don't want to do that.

536

And then somebody else who's been CC'd on the visit, no, I think you should try that.

537

And they're, but he didn't say anything.

538

And, and so then you try it.

539

and then he were back and it was like, no, you're absolutely right.

540

doesn't work.

541

So he was really nice, but it's like the people around him are like, no, don't, don't just

just do it.

542

Yeah, just do it.

543

But he was really cool, actually.

544

And um so for him, what it was all about was about emotion.

545

And it was about like, sometimes people are just flat.

546

It was when people were kind of going up in front of Congress and talking.

547

And um he was just wondering, is that something that we can look at in different colors?

548

Are there different ways to

549

things and and it was oh and I always found that really interesting because so he has a

partnership with with a really good

550

for Grant is always about logic and arcing and where are we going with it.

551

And so you see how the two of them work well together.

552

But the problem is that you get notes that are totally contradictory about the same thing.

553

And so you would just write, oh, God.

554

And so you just would kind of send it off to somebody else to figure out.

555

But incredibly, incredibly cool.

556

meet any of them in person?

557

I didn't know because I had moved, it premiered in Tribeca.

558

And so everybody went to Tribeca.

559

And um I had already, so we were living in France at the time and I had already gone back

and forth to the States.

560

like earlier that month.

561

And so we have little children and I'm pretty convinced my wife would have just shot me if

I had gone one more time.

562

So I didn't, I didn't, I wish I had, but I got nice notes from people.

563

so that was, yeah, no, incredibly, I he's everything you think he is.

564

He's a really lovely guy.

565

That's great.

566

Well, many of our listeners are emerging filmmakers and their editors kind of trying to

find their voice.

567

So what advice would you give them about shaping a powerful story in an edit?

568

Um

569

shaping a powerful story in an edit room.

570

think the thing is, mean, you've all been told, I think, the...

571

Probably the advice that's the most annoying to hear, but it's that don't focus on the

end.

572

Really try to stay with what your story is in front of you.

573

em What I find em with every project,

574

is that as I'm working with it, I can feel myself imposing a certain idea or a certain

something onto it, often because I want it to be a kind of film or I want it to be a

575

something.

576

And you've got to find your film.

577

You've got to find a grain, I call it like you're cutting with the grain.

578

Like, what are

579

the ways that people are talking about stories who's carrying the story.

580

And it may not be the person that you thought was carrying the story.

581

So with Ohio State, it wasn't supposed to be Dan, who was our central character.

582

um But you start just really kind of listening to who these people are.

583

And it's not to say that they're forward or

584

it's really just trying to look at it as a whole.

585

And it's like kind of coming back to it in terms of music.

586

It's like you you want to kind of figure out how are you going to play this movie?

587

Like who's bringing what colors?

588

um And how can it be as powerful as it can be?

589

And the reality is that you have to just kind of keep going through it and keep working

it.

590

And.

591

It's a process of keeping yourself fresh, really.

592

To make a powerful movie, and thank you for, I'm not saying I've done that, but thank you

for intimating it.

593

But to make a movie that I think resonates with people is you've got to keep working at.

594

and keeping yourself fresh so that it resonates with you.

595

And a lot of the time it's, you know, it's bringing somebody in to watch it.

596

And it's not even necessarily that you need their feedback.

597

So that can really help where they're like confused or lost, but it's like, you can just

feel what they're experiencing.

598

And a lot of the time you're like, okay, this section is not working.

599

Even if they haven't said anything, just watching it with someone or with several people.

600

You can just feel what that is as a person.

601

And it just kind of, it just reawakens you, I guess, is kind what the phrase would be.

602

All the time.

603

Yeah, as much as you can do.

604

what it's doing.

605

And I think it's really important that you watch what people's emotions are doing because

that's what you're wanting.

606

You need to gauge what you're, you know, what people are seeing and feeling.

607

So I think that's great advice.

608

All right.

609

Well, we now need to move into everybody's favorite section of our podcast.

610

Docu-View you, you deja vu?

611

Did you documentary to recommend?

612

Yeah, I thought about this and um the one I would recommend is this one, uh they came out

as a pair, but this one in particular called about the fire festival, fire music festival,

613

but the one by uh Chris Smith, I'm gonna hope I don't get his name wrong, but Chris Smith,

that was the one that went on Netflix.

614

And it was a documentary and a narrative, right?

615

It would know it's a documentary only.

616

So it's about the fire music festival about this fraudulent music festival that was put on

by Scott Billy.

617

Okay.

618

And there was another one that came out a couple of days after called Firefrog on Hulu.

619

uh

620

You can hear my son, he's being encouraged to go to bed.

621

But the reason, if that's too distracting, that's the other reason to become an editor is

that you can hide away in closed doors.

622

But the problem is that now a lot of us work at home.

623

But the reason I think it's worth watching is that I think it's um really well put

together.

624

It's incredibly well put together.

625

um If you were, hold on one sec, sorry.

626

It's okay.

627

I can wait and we can wait if you need to help.

628

Uh, hang on.

629

Yeah, if you don't mind, just give me one sec.

630

Thank you.

631

OK, sorry about that.

632

But what's interesting is that so it's a.

633

Yeah.

634

to like come right back into um what we were saying so we get a clean cut.

635

Okay, so you were about to say why you like the fire film because of the editing and it's

well put together, so.

636

Right, so there are two documentaries that came out within days of each other about the

exact same event.

637

And one of them has a sit down interview with the person who was at the center of it, who

was this fraudster confidence man and has a lot of um background footage and all of that.

638

And the thing is, is that that's probably the documentary that's not as good as this other

one that doesn't have all of that to me and to a lot of other people because this other

639

one went on to win a bunch of awards and things.

640

But what it has is that it's just incredibly well put together in terms of structure.

641

And so I would encourage people to go watch that.

642

it's like, and keep the structure in mind.

643

that like when, yeah, it's by Chris Smith.

644

Okay, so the one on Netflix you think is really well put together, but the one on Hulu won

a bunch of awards.

645

No, the opposite.

646

So Netflix really well put together, won a bunch of awards.

647

Hulu has lots of content.

648

uh Sit Down Interview, it's still good.

649

It's still interesting because it was like this crazy scam.

650

But the other one is just much, it's a much better film.

651

And I think part of the reason I think it's interesting to watch.

652

is that when you get into the kind of vertical parts of the story, when you get into the

character, you see where uh the director and the editor earned those moments.

653

Okay.

654

Now is it uh the fire or F I R E or what is it?

655

F Y R E.

656

I thought it was F Y R E.

657

I wanted to just clarify.

658

Okay.

659

Well, it has been super interesting speaking with you.

660

I really think that our editors will benefit from your knowledge and just your way of

looking at editing films.

661

I appreciate your time.

662

I know it's late over there in France, but it really means a lot to me and to our editors.

663

So thank you so much for being here.

664

Of course, Christian, but thank you very much for having me.

665

Yeah, really is great to talk to you.

666

Okay, we'll have you back again soon.

667

All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we

believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it.

668

Bye, everybody.