The Watts riots of 1965 lay destruction in its wake. Fast forward to the early 90's, and the urban youth of South Central L.A. are still trying to find their way. Broken homes, gang violence, and the drug game dot the 'hood. Caine Lawson finds himself embroiled in the turmoil, having grown up with little means and the child of a dealer and addict. Will Caine break the cycle or remain a menace to himself and a Menace II Society? 

Notes

Menace II Society on IMDB. Watch on Showtime or Amazon.

Our Boyz N the Hood episode.

About HHMC

Hip Hop Movie Club is a show and podcast that celebrates and examines old and new hip hop-themed films. Your hosts are three longtime hip hop fans: DynoWright, podcaster and filmmaker; JB, 80s and 90s nostalgia junkie, and BooGie, a DJ and veteran graffiti artist.

Credits

Hip Hop Movie Club is produced by your HHMC's: BooGie, JB and DynoWright! Theme music by BooGie.

Follow us on social media @hiphopmovieclub!

Mentioned in this episode:

Wild Style coming to SteelStacks on January 25th

Join us for a special event at SteelStacks in Bethlehem PA on January 25th - a special screening of hip hop's first film Wild Style! Featuring Q&A with the director Charlie Ahearn, Grandmaster Caz and Grandmixer DXT! Special DJ performance by DXT and hip hop show by the Cold Crush Brothers! Come hang with your HH emcees! This screening and performance is presented in partnership with Northampton Community College Foundation Annual Humanities Program. More information and free tickets at steelstacks.org.

The Watts riots of 1965 lay destruction

in its wake.

2

Fast forward to the early nineties

and the urban youth are still trying

3

to find their way broken homes, gang

violence and the drug game dot the hood.

4

Caine finds himself embroiled

in the turmoil, having grown up with

5

little means, and as the child of a dealer

and an addict.

6

Will Caine break the cycle

or remain a menace to himself

7

and a menace to society?

8

Bring it!

9

C’mon!

10

Welcome to Hip Hop Movie Club.

11

This is a show for Gen-X

hip hop fans want to relive the glory days

12

and reconsider classic and modern hip

hop films from a current day perspective.

13

Together, we'll explore

some of the largest societal issues

14

raised in these films.

15

Whether you have or have not seen Menace

II Society before,

16

we’ll help you decide if you should take

the time to watch it now.

17

Either way, you’ll be a smarter

hip hop fan by the end of this episode.

18

In the next 30 minutes or so,

you'll get all this and more.

19

We are three

20

old heads who put their old heads

together, to vibe on these films for you.

21

I'm DynoWright, podcaster, filmmaker,

long time hip hop fan, and the first

22

hip hop act I ever saw live was Arrested

23

I'm JB eighties and

24

nineties nostalgia junkie, longtime

hip hop fan, and I recently saw the hip

25

hop duo Rae Sremmurd perform at Hofstra

University's Fall Fest.

26

I'm BooGie, a deejay,

27

long time

hip hop fan, and in addition to my wax,

28

also have a pretty nice

cassette collection, complete

29

with a working Aiwa walkman

and a Sanyo boombox.

30

In this episode,

we'll answer the question,

31

does Menace

II Society still resonate today?

32

Bring it!

33

C’mon!

34

Menace

35

II Society is a crime drama

depicting the formative years

36

of Caine Lawson

growing up around drugs and violent crime.

37

Caine narrates his own story,

38

navigating through the projects

and living in thug life.

39

We can only hope

40

he can reform his ways

and find a safe exit strategy.

41

This movie was from 1993.

42

So let's get into Menace II Society.

43

Dig right in,

I think. Let's start at the top.

44

So take us through the now famous

and often parodied

45

opening scene

that takes place in a convenience store.

46

BooGie,

lay the foundation of what happens there.

47

Sure, I could do that

sort of opening scene of the movie shows

48

Caine and O-Dog

walk into the local convenience store,

49

talking about meeting up later

and things they're about to get into.

50

There's an Asian woman

cleaning in the store,

51

and O-Dog immediately responds to her like

she doesn’t have to follow them around.

52

So they grab their 40 ounces

and as they’re about to open it

53

The male cashier tells him that

they can't drink the beer in the store.

54

And O-Dog was like,

Yeah, you know, we're going to pay,

55

we're going to pay for whatever,

whatever, whatever. So then

56

the lady responds.

57

Hurry up and buy,

58

which is one of the famous

lines, that’s parodied in

59

Don't be a Menace to South Central

by Drinking Your Juice in the Hood,

60

and also the scenario of her

61

following him around the store

in various places and popping up,

62

hiding out throughout the store.

63

So then the cashier tells me

I have to pay it, meaning

64

that they should just hurry up and go.

65

And the lady just kind of watching them,

you know, following around or whatever.

66

So Caine tells O-Dog to get his change,

67

and he starts walking towards the door

with his 40-ounce in his hand.

68

And then O-Dog says “What’s up

with my man’s

69

change”, to which

70

the cashier gives him his change.

71

And he says, I feel sorry for your mother.

72

Another line that's

73

popped up in Don’t

Be a Menace to South Central

74

While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood,

to which O-Dog responds

75

“What you say about my mama?” Famous line

76

also parodied in that movie,

but well, he immediately

77

walks over to the cashier in a rage

and the cinematography

78

just kind of pans over as you see

Caine with his 40-ounce in his hand.

79

And we see a gunshots ringing

off, 40-ounce hits the floor.

80

And then we look over, we see O-Dog

81

just kind of shooting

the man behind the register.

82

He grabs the woman

who's who's there as a witness now

83

and tells takes her to the back to go

grab the security tape

84

and he's telling

her to hurry up and eject it,

85

and then you hear him shoot her as well,

86

which is very unfortunate.

87

Then Caine runs out,

88

O-Dog runs out and is telling Caine that,

you know, hurry up.

89

I thought you were going to open up

the register.

90

And as O-Dog runs to the register

he only finds $6.

91

So it was like, wow.

92

But then he immediately starts to pat down

the victim,

93

the man who's laying there

and take the rest of the money

94

that he found on them,

95

and he hops over the counter,

before he leaves,

96

he grabs his 40-ounce and they were out.

97

So it's just like,

wow, just the way it escalated in

98

a matter of seconds is just unreal.

99

It's jarring

if you've never seen that scene before.

100

And I've seen it several times,

and it still jars me a bit because

101

of how quickly

it escalated, had the temperament

102

that O-Dog displays in this situation.

103

But as I said it's been parodied

a few times and the parodies

104

are much funnier

and they bring a lot more light to it.

105

But yeah, that lays it out right there.

106

Yeah, good breakdown.

107

And I think it's important

for historical perspective

108

because I was reading more up

on the tensions

109

in the Watts area

110

and the store owners are Korean

and there was palpable

111

tension between the the two communities,

the Korean community, the Black community.

112

There was a famous killing

113

of Latasha Harlins in 1991 at the hands

of a Korean convenience store owner.

114

And then there was other incidents

after the Rodney

115

King riots in Koreatown section in 92.

116

So the Hughes brothers, you know,

117

played off of that with this scene.

118

So palpable tension,

119

you know, art imitating life, so to speak.

120

Yeah. Yeah.

121

The this scene sets up

the rest of the movie

122

and it doesn't escalate until the Korean

123

store owner says,

I feel sorry for your mother,

124

bringing into focus like a real problem

here.

125

This movie

126

violates is that the O-Dog

127

and Caine don't really have parents

128

and the support system –

and we'll talk about this – is

129

not really there for them and you know

this is their way of dealing with it

130

is to shoot the two store owners.

131

Yeah. So it's it's horrible.

132

But this is the situation

they find themselves in.

133

Yeah.

134

Like you said, the scene is jarring.

135

It shocked and captivated audiences.

136

Remember, this is 1993,

137

not much of this raw violence was

138

documented

139

before even in, you know,

a fictional story.

140

But again, life imitates art.

141

So this was

142

this this had happened,

you know, similar incidents had occurred.

143

What's crazy in researching it,

too, is the Hughes brothers,

144

Allen and Albert Hughes were

just 20 years old when they made the film,

145

and their goal was to

146

shock

147

and educate white America,

you know, through shock value.

148

So it sure did that did the job there.

149

And it's two years after Boyz n

the Hood still.

150

Right, right, right.

151

We're going to talk about like comparing

and contrasting Boyz N the Hood.

152

So right, it's two years after that.

153

But wow, that opening scene, it

154

it is a very

155

legendary scene in crime dramas.

156

Yeah.

157

And I read that Larenz Tate ad libbed

“What you say about my mama?”

158

which is amazing. Wow. Yeah,

159

yeah,

160

yeah.

161

And even that that whole

the security tape,

162

that O-Dog eventually does

163

grab out of the back

with the woman that tape

164

is constantly coming up

throughout the movie

165

in various scenarios

166

because it becomes a mockery

167

to watch that scene

where the guys sit around

168

with their drinks, you know, smoking

or whatever and watch that as a is a

169

parody of what happened.

170

Like laughing at it. It's it's crazy.

171

Yeah, he was proud.

172

He was celebrating it, like boasting

about what he had done like.

173

Selling copies of it Street cred.

174

This is his SportsCenter

top ten highlight.

175

So you know, it's funny,

we have younger listeners out here

176

even to understand this concept,

because nowadays everybody in cell phones,

177

this would have been

178

one of them would have been filming it

on a cell phone, recording it,

179

and then they'd be sharing it

through social media, hopefully not

180

letting it get out to the authorities

somehow trusting the people.

181

But back in the day,

it was a physical tape that was in

182

the surveillance camera,

sitting in the convenience store

183

that they had to eject and a physical tape

that was important

184

that he wanted to make sure he possessed

so that the authorities wouldn't get it.

185

But again, he ended up replaying it for

other people and celebrating, which was

186

savage

187

for sure.

188

So Caine, the main character

189

Caine, the protagonist,

190

as we as you mentioned DynoWright,

191

born into a life of crime,

192

addict and dealer

193

for parents who both died young because of

194

the world

in which they lived and circumstances.

195

Do you empathize with Caine?

196

Are you rooting for him

throughout the movie?

197

Why or why not?

198

DynoWright,

you want to kick off on this one?

199

Sure.

200

I was rooting for him

because he had a rough

201

upbringing and generally he wasn't

looking for trouble in the beginning.

202

But then the life just took over him.

203

But he's not so much pulled into it

as that he chooses to, to live that life.

204

And so

205

I was rooting for him at first,

but then I'm like,

206

this is not going to end well for him.

207

And it turns into an anti-hero, I guess.

208

Right.

209

Yeah, I guess the root

210

as much as you can root from,

just root for him to survive the movie.

211

Yeah. You root for him

to maybe reform himself as. What I was.

212

Yeah. You know, he was trying.

213

I guess he, you know, even though he

he did embrace the lifestyle, he also

214

I think he came to the realization

that he needed to get out.

215

And so he was going to

216

and then we find out, we see what happens.

217

Yeah. Right before he leaves.

218

BooGie, what are your thoughts?

219

Were you rooting for Caine?

220

Yeah, it's hard for me not to

221

to empathize

with Caine to a certain extent.

222

I mean, I understand

that he is the product of his parents

223

to an extent, and product

of his environment to an extent.

224

I mean, but he also has a loving

225

set of loving, nurturing grandparents,

226

you know, that want to see him

become a good person.

227

Like they

you know, upright religious folks.

228

And they even if they sat down,

they would talk with them,

229

they would spend time with them.

230

They would say, give him encouraging words

231

repeatedly throughout the film.

232

You see them, you know,

pushing for him to do the right thing,

233

even pulling O-Dog in

and talking with O-Dog as well.

234

You know, So, you know, also,

I like to see

235

the underdog succeed, like you know that

236

because of his environment that he's in.

237

He's he's the underdog.

238

He's just he's on his way to becoming

a statistic by his actions growing up.

239

Flipside, it's hard

240

to root for him because he continues

to participate in knucklehead behavior.

241

You know, like the incident

when his cousin was

242

was murdered in a carjacking,

they knew who the people were,

243

they had a perfect opportunity to get the

authorities involved in that situation.

244

But no, they went

and handled it themselves, you know.

245

You know, even when he met the girl Ilena

246

and, you know, she called him and told her

I told him that she was pregnant.

247

His immediate reaction was to almost

abandon her in that situation

248

and claim that it wasn't even his child.

249

We had the the the Mustang 5.0.

250

He had factory rims on it.

251

But what did he do?

252

He went out and robbed the guy

for his Daytons, to put them on his car,

253

you know, And then even when Ilena’s

cousin came over to confront him about,

254

you know, you know, dissing Ilena.

255

I mean, you okay, A fight is a fight, but

256

the extent to which you beat him was

was was brutal,

257

like stomping repeatedly on his head

while he's on the ground.

258

You know, things like that,

259

it kind of

260

makes it hard for you

to to want to root for him.

261

But like DynoWright said, like you're

rooting for him to survive the movie

262

because you know that the path that he's

going down, something is going to happen.

263

But then it was like the light side of it

when you're Ronnie and even

264

what’s his name Sharif and Stacy,

265

were trying to get him to go to Kansas,

you know, And then Ronnie's like,

266

you know,

why don’t you come to Atlanta with us?

267

And he finally was like alright,

looks like he was going to go.

268

But, you know, as the cliche saying goes,

269

life comes at you fast.

270

And it sure did, right

when he was ready to make a move.

271

Yeah.

272

Great. Breakdown.

273

I was rooting for him

to turn his life around again.

274

I grimaced at all the brutality that he

275

put out there in the world.

276

Carjacking you know, retaliation murder.

277

Rough.

278

But he he did have a soft spot for

279

Pernell, who was his mentor, and Ronnie's

son while Pernell was in prison.

280

Like the little boy, Anthony.

281

He would,

282

I think, either bought him a Big Wheel or,

you know, said he was going to.

283

And he would continuously give money

to Ronnie

284

to help care for Anthony, because,

285

you know, note Pernell was locked up.

286

So he did have a loving side,

but it was just shrouded

287

by all the hardness

from his upbringing and his surroundings.

288

So we didn't mention

his father was played by Samuel L.

289

Jackson, and the character

Ronnie was Jada Pinkett Smith.

290

So some big names in here.

291

Yeah.

292

For sure. But

293

Let’s talk a little bit more about Caine's

support system.

294

What comprised Caine's support system?

295

Who who was

who were the influences for him?

296

Boogie want to take that as well?

297

Yeah, I mean,

I think touched on it a little bit.

298

But he did like I said he did

h have his grandparents.

299

I mean, that was his primary support.

300

I mean, he lived with them

and they fed him and provided for him up

301

until he got to the point

302

where he started hustling

and kind of somewhat doing it for himself.

303

But they were there for him.

304

And I mean, they tried to as best

they could.

305

I mean, granted, it would probably be

a little different had they been younger

306

and, you know, probably able to go outside

and kind of chase him around, whatever.

307

But they were definitely there for him.

308

You did mention you mentioned Ronnie.

309

She was very supportive of him as well,

and she cared very deeply for him,

310

you could see it from the beginning

311

that there was a connection

between the two of them,

312

but she was was looking out for him

and wanted him to do good.

313

And she was the one who was trying to

encourage him to leave and come with her

314

to just get away and just start over.

315

Even as his boys, Sharif and Stacy,

like I said,

316

mentioned earlier they were trying

to get him to move to Kansas

317

with them because they knew it wasn't

that there was nothing going on

318

in South Central LA either.

319

they were like, we got to get out of here.

320

You should come with us, even to the point

where Sharif’s father, Mr.

321

Butler, stepped in

and was trying to talk to them.

322

And that was he's

he was a great role model.

323

And as he said,

there's a statement he mentioned,

324

in regards to Sharif, when he said,

you know, know

325

referring to the Nation of Islam,

being able to give Sharif that support,

326

that to make him a better person,

the said, listen, I don't care,

327

you know, if he's Muslim or not, like he's

making my son a better person.

328

I'm all for it,

329

you know?

330

And he was just like,

you know, I don't understand it.

331

I'm not Muslim, but, hey, it's helping

my son, it’s good, you know?

332

So stuff like that, you know?

333

But like I said,

I think those are probably probably

334

the primary positive influences

in his life.

335

Yeah.

336

I thought the one powerful speech, Mr.

337

Butler, Sharif's dad, very slowly stating

of being a Black man in America is tough.

338

You are the prey.

339

Just survive.

Like he tried to drill that into

340

Caine, but he just wouldn't listen.

341

He was too embroiled in his lifestyle.

342

It was hard to get out.

343

But yeah,

he had those other opportunities.

344

The grandparents were very proud of him

that he was getting his diploma

345

and they were religious

and they could tell

346

that Caine was uncomfortable

when they started talking about God.

347

He’s not there to talk about that

God stuff.

348

And, you know, but

349

he was really brushing it off,

350

unfortunately.

351

And Ronnie wanted him to avoid the fate

of Pernell, like a jail or worse.

352

You know?

353

So they're pulling for him

and trying to pull.

354

But the their force wasn't as strong as

355

the other influences

of negative influences.

356

O-Dog was totally unhinged.

357

Like you said, he was showing off

the video and not a good influence at all.

358

It was like,

I can cynicism to a certain extent.

359

I mean, having witnessed

what he witnessed as a child

360

with this with his parents

361

father selling drugs

362

and shooting somebody and kill him

right in the house, his mother

363

being strung out on on heroin

and crack or whatever.

364

So, I mean, I get the cynicism.

365

Like I said, you know,

with the grandparents to talk about God?

366

Okay, well, what happened with my parents?

367

You know,

I kind of get where he's coming from

368

to a certain extent,

but at the same time, you can't

369

you can't go through life, you know,

focusing on the negative when you have

370

all of these people around him

that are trying to pull for you.

371

So, I mean,

372

that’s why I say,

that's that's would be kind of hard.

373

What I said earlier is maybe, you know,

hard for me to kind of empathize.

374

When he got these people that are

trying to root for him you know, yeah.

375

DynoWright, anything to

376

add on the influences on Caine?

377

You know, it takes a village.

378

And if the village doesn't

have stable parents in the beginning,

379

that's really it's really tough

to make it.

380

And despite the best efforts

of the grandparents,

381

Harold, for a few minutes

382

before he got shot in the carjacking and

383

and Sharif and Stacy

and Ronnie and Pernell,

384

there's only so much they can do.

385

And Caine makes

386

made his decisions,

387

despite what you know,

people were trying to help him

388

were doing so it’s tough.

389

What were the opportunities

that he had to escape his life of crime?

390

BooGie, you talked about it, his friends

Stacy and Sharif were moving to Kansas

391

and he wanted to come along.

392

And what what were

393

some of the other opportunities

he had to escape?

394

You want to touch on that?

395

I mean,

396

even just the fact that I mean,

it was unfortunate

397

that his cousin Harold was killed,

398

but he was shot and he survived.

399

You know,

you live through something like that.

400

You know, it's that's a

that's a point where you could say, whoa,

401

maybe I may just try and start

rethinking some things.

402

Yeah.

403

You know,

But you didn't rethink things at all.

404

Like his immediate response

was to retaliate.

405

And I get it.

406

I mean, that’s your cousin, I get it.

407

But at the same time, like,

you can't expect

408

to go out and do something like that

and something good come about it because.

409

Yeah, okay, you kill these guys.

410

Now what next?

411

Like, you could have gotten caught

in the process by the police

412

and shot and killed

right there on the spot.

413

Their friends could have came and saw it,

and they could have shot you on the spot.

414

There's so many things

that could have gone wrong

415

by jumping

to that jumping to those actions

416

and he had a perfect opportunity

to completely avoid all of that.

417

And he chose not to, you know, even

like I said before, with his grandfather

418

trying to talk to him and O-Dog,

about the trouble they get into,

419

because he he sees it like some of it

420

he sees something he hears through hearsay

through the neighborhood,

421

but he’s calling it to their attention

that I know what you guys are.

422

some, I don't even know all of it,

423

but I know what you guys are doing out

there is wrong.

424

You kind of

might want to try to correct it.

425

And they didn’t,

426

you know,

even when they tried to, you know,

427

they went to go steal a car and,

428

you know, yeah, he he got his

429

his sentence got reduced to attempted

joyriding instead of Grand Theft Auto.

430

Okay. You got a reduction.

431

Then his fingerprints

432

matched the 40 ounce

that was dropped in the store.

433

He got interrogated and got away with it.

434

You know, they couldn't find anything

because they had no evidence.

435

So he got off that. Here's another option.

436

Okay? I got away. You know what?

437

I'm clean.

438

I’m out.

439

I’m done. Nope! Keep going.

440

You know, Sharif and Stacy, try and talk,

you know, in one ear and out the other?

441

You know, Mr.

442

Butler talking to him in one of the other,

you know,

443

then he you know, they had the unfortunate

444

scene where Caine and Sharif

445

were brutally beaten by the police

officers.

446

And, you know, nope, you know,

447

and I think that might have that

448

might have been somewhat

of a turning point because Ronnie actually

449

put it in his head

to go with her to Atlanta.

450

And then she asked him again

and he finally did accept.

451

But after all of the the laundry list of

452

things he's done and granted,

453

it's a movie, so they only show certain

aspects of what happened.

454

So there's probably a lot more that

he's done that that didn't make the film.

455

Yeah, you know it’s

safe to make that assumption,

456

you know, And it all caught up to him,

you know.

457

When faced with the opportunity

to really change,

458

he never takes the opportunity.

459

Right?

460

He makes really bad decisions.

461

I mean, on the face of it.

462

That's I guess that's the stubbornness

of being young and growing

463

up, that environment,

not having that true. Exactly.

464

Father figure or parent parental figure.

465

His moral compass is broken.

466

He never really had one. Yeah.

467

Even though he, like you said,

he did have a a loving side to him.

468

And distorted maybe. But loyalty.

469

Yeah.

470

It's it's

one of the great things about this movie.

471

It's very, you know, morally complex. You

472

right

That's why I find myself torn a little bit

473

rooting for him versus

not rooting for him.

474

It's like it's almost like

475

someone's a dummy dummy, you know,

like, yeah, just get out of this.

476

Like, you have an opening.

477

You have an opening just like,

see the path.

478

But there's there's something

keeping him from that.

479

Yeah.

480

Like, even, like,

you know, when he went to go see Pernell.

481

Pernell even knew.

482

Pernell was like listen man, just go.

483

Go with them.

484

Look out for my son.

485

You know, be there for my son.

486

Tell him that.

487

Show him

that what we were doing was wrong.

488

It was B.S., right?

489

Yeah. Show him a better way.

490

I think that might have probably

been icing on the cake right there.

491

That kind of convinced him

because I think he was you know, I think

492

I think there's a there's a possibility

that even that he told Ronnie he wanted

493

he would do it, that he would leave.

494

I think there was still a possibility

that he was not going to do it

495

just based on his past actions.

496

Yep. Yeah.

497

I think Pernell

was probably the icing on it

498

when Pernell put it to him straight

and he as much as he admired Pernell,

499

I think that was the icing right

there, coming from somebody who lived that

500

lifestyle, who got caught up.

501

He survived, but he got caught up

502

and he's able to tell you, Listen,

don't do what I did.

503

Get out.

504

Take it from someone

who had the bad outcome.

505

I think it was cool.

506

And well, Pernell kind of gave

507

Caine the blessing to, you know,

508

become,

509

I guess, boyfriend girlfriend, you know,

have a relationship with with Ronnie.

510

It's like, I know she's fond of you.

511

Like, I'm not around and, yeah,

just take care of my son.

512

Like you said.

513

That was very big of him.

514

And that was that was big of him.

515

Yeah.

516

So let's talk

517

about Menace

II Society versus Boyz N the Hood.

518

I mean, they, they get compared

and contrasted quite a bit

519

in in retrospect,

again, in terms of the timeline.

520

Boyz N the Hood

521

came out in 1991, Menace

522

I'll kick it off since I haven't started

one of these discussions.

523

But yeah, in my opinion,

I thought that Boyz N the Hood was a more

524

well-crafted story with more thoughtful

character development.

525

Menace II Society was much more raw,

526

and the narration through Caine

I really like

527

he was narrating his own story,

kind of gave the viewer firsthand account

528

of his life as a youngster in the hood.

529

Obviously,

you have some folks that had the better

530

support system in Boyz N

the Hood, like Tre Styles,

531

and like I said, the relationship

between he, him, Doughboy

532

and Kenny was more well, well developed,

533

not so much with Caine and O-Dog,

You don't really see that relationship.

534

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

535

So that's kind of how

I would compare it on the surface.

536

Do you want to chime

in some more DynoWright your thoughts?

537

Yeah, I agree with you.

538

I think there was more character

development in the in the other

539

in Boyz N the Hood.

540

They were really like

541

two bookends.

542

You know, Chuck D once said that

543

rap music is the Black people’s CNN.

544

And, you know, this was sort of like MTV.

545

Now it shows you what the life was like

in some of these places.

546

And so

547

the comparisons

there are very similar in that

548

the depictions of the life

were unflinching.

549

Maybe maybe Menace

II Society was a little more

550

graphic and violent. But,

551

you know, you got the same effect

552

and you saw that kind of the same stuff.

553

I think you're right.

554

I think there was a little more,

I guess, exploration of

555

getting out in in Boyz N the Hood.

556

Maybe

557

it's been a while since we watched it,

558

but it's really just Caine

trying to get out.

559

But in the other in Boyz n the Hood,

I think they were all sort of figuring out

560

what they were trying to do next.

561

Right?

562

You get to see the trajectory

of each of them

563

within the hood.

564

Yeah.

565

And trying to avoid the pitfalls

of the gangs, your neighborhood.

566

And there is that glimmer of hope

because there's that possibility of the

567

football scholarship.

There's different avenues.

568

There doesn't really seem to be a light

569

at the end of the tunnel for Caine,

even though he's offered these ones.

570

But nothing really was like

571

no, nothing stuck with him, obviously.

572

And as we said.

573

No, I think.

574

Yeah, Sorry to finish that point.

Go ahead.

575

Yeah.

576

That the way to get out

there were there were more ways

577

to get out shown in Boyz N the Hood and

578

Menace II Society was like

the only way out is in a pine box.

579

Unfortunately.

580

Right.

581

BooGie, what are your thoughts

582

about comparing Menace

II Society with Boyz N the Hood as well?

583

No, I think I think you both summed it up

pretty well.

584

I think

585

I mean, they both do take place in the

same area, South Central Los Angeles.

586

So and they do both to depicted

587

the pitfalls of that area

in that time period.

588

I think you said

the storytelling is very different.

589

You you have first person

narration and menace

590

and we have the kind of looking

from the outside in in Boyz N the Hood.

591

But I do like the

the character development

592

that we did see him in Boyz n the Hood,

and that kind of made you

593

have a more of an attachment

to those characters.

594

Yeah, because we saw them as kids

and we saw the two,

595

the bond

that they shared from early on growing up,

596

even though we didn't see

597

every aspect of them growing up,

we saw them as it's kind of like

598

we kind of knew what they recover from

and how they became so tight

599

and we didn't really see

that in Menace but

600

I think we did

601

mention, though,

there was more than one avenue to get out.

602

So you kind of rooting

for those characters, all three of them.

603

The main character, you know, Doughboy,

604

Ricky and and Tre,

605

for all three of them to make it because

you kind of got a bit of an attachment.

606

You saw that there were

there was a bond between them.

607

So you didn't want to see any one of them

fail.

608

With Menace, I mean, yeah,

609

we were rooting for Caine, but, you know,

610

it was almost a lost cause.

611

Yeah, but, you know,

612

you don't want to

you don't want him to infect any area

613

you wanted to see where you at

614

or get put down to get locked up

or something like, what's going on Guy.

615

But, but now I think that you were both

summed it up pretty well though.

616

And yeah, they definitely are

617

like you said, done right there bookends

I think to that to that

618

area and definitely,

619

you know the visuals to

620

you know, what's going on at that time

621

period. And

622

in L.A., South Central, South Central L.A.

623

Early nineties tensions were high

624

with the Rodney King incident

and so very pregnant at the time.

625

Man, I have a mental block

where I always call Ricky Kenny.

626

And if you caught that

first for some reason, he must've

627

lost your mind.

628

I may have done that.

629

We did the other record,

like for some reason in my head he's like,

630

he's a Kenny where

where the iconic scene is like Ricky.

631

And I like.

632

Like why you might not remember the name.

633

I don't know why.

634

It just. It's just.

635

It's just some odd.

636

Kenny

637

you watch too much South Park.

638

Yeah.

639

Oh my God they killled Kenny.

640

Bastards.

641

Jeez, but yeah

642

Oh man.

643

Sorry about that.

644

Rest in peace, Ricky.

645

But the nice tie between the two movies

I just found out was that Ice Cube was

646

offered the role of O-Dog, turned it down

and regretted it ever since.

647

So there you go.

648

Imagine. Wow.

649

Yeah.

650

Ice Cube as O-Dog, goodness gracious.

651

That wasn't with a character. Yeah.

652

This whole different movie of Ice

Cube was the was O-Dog.

653

Because

654

I feel

655

like in Boyz N the Hood, Doughboy’s

really charismatic.

656

And like you, I was really rooting for

for Doughboy to survive the movie.

657

Yeah.

658

And yeah, I think if he gave

659

that humanness to O-Dog,

I think they'd be a different movie.

660

And maybe

661

the whole opening scene with the in

the convenience store is a lot different.

662

And so

663

a very interesting thought exercise

664

is to redo

this movie with Ice Cube is O-Dog.

665

Yeah, for sure.

666

But another fact,

we mentioned this in that Dear Mama,

667

Tupac legendarily was originally cast

to play Sharif, but he was fired

668

and that led to the physical fistfight

or physical fight.

669

And it was a one sided fight

probably, or attack on Allen Hughes.

670

And Tupac was charged

with assault and battery.

671

That was mentioned by Allen Hughes,

672

who did the documentary

series with Afeni Shakur.

673

So Tupac could have

674

played in this movie as well.

675

Yeah, that'd be crazy to have Tupac

and and Ice Cube in the movie.

676

Wow. Yeah.

677

Can you imagine?

678

We have MC Eiht playing A-Wax.

679

Yeah.

680

Too $hort. Yeah.

681

And even Yo-Yo was was at the party,

682

the going away party at the end where

683

Caine got tired of

684

watching advances of what’s his name?

685

his name? Chauncey.

686

Chauncey. Yes.

687

Got tired of Chauncey's advances on Ronnie

and decided to pistol whip him.

688

Yeah, like.

689

That's you boy.

690

How you gonna pistol whip your boy?

691

Like you could have just pulled him aside

and said, yo chill.

692

Yeah, Caine had no chill

by the end of the movie.

693

But you know the crazy thing about it

is that

694

even if the end didn't play out

the way it did, the circle was closing in

695

on both O-Dog and Caine because

696

Chauncey

decided to take that infamous tape

697

and send it to the authorities.

698

Yeah,

699

it's like

700

he decided, you know,

his retaliation was much smarter.

701

He said, You know what?

702

Okay, I'm not going to shoot him.

703

I'm going to get back at him,

but I'm gonna do it the smart way.

704

And I kept looking at Mr.

705

Butler, Sharif's dad, and I'm like,

Where do I know him from?

706

Where do I know him

from? Charles S. Dutton.

707

You know Charles S. Dutton.

708

Roc. The TV show Roc,

which was on for several years.

709

Yeah. I'm like,

I know that guy that smile.

710

Like, I know that guy.

711

And I couldn't place it,

like during the movie itself

712

because I hadn't seen Roc in years

713

but he’s very recognizable.

714

Yeah, for sure.

715

Yeah. Charles S. Dutton.

716

Yeah. Yeah.

717

Both of these films

had some really terrific actors.

718

Really?

719

Just think of Tupac as Sharif

in this movie.

720

I mean,

we saw how much he chewed up scenes

721

in Juice and Above the Rim

and and those movies.

722

And imagine what this movie

be like with Tupac

723

in that role, which, I mean, Sharif,

724

not a big role,

725

but man, Tupac would probably make it

a big role.

726

Right?

727

Yeah, So many so many big names here.

728

Even even Glenn Plummer,

who played Pernell he's in another movie,

729

ironically, titled South Central.

730

Oh yeah, Yeah.

731

Good movie.

732

Very good movie.

733

Oh did y’all see Anthony Johnson?

734

Wait.

735

I saw him in the credits, but I couldn’t.

736

Okay, I’ll back it up.

737

So in the beginning, in the beginning

when Tat was

738

they were playing cards at the table

739

when Tat gets up to shoot the guy,

740

the guy with the with the with the fedora

on that was Anthony Johnson.

741

You know

what's funny is that all of my times

742

of watching the movie,

I didn't pick up on it until that time.

743

I watched

I watched it. I'm sitting watching.

744

I'm like, wait a minute

and I go to the credits, like,

745

wait a minute, I thought the wait a minute

I looked it up like, that is him,

746

because he wasn't being funny.

747

He was just he was kind of in

a serious role, even it was brief cameo.

748

But yeah that was Anthony Johnson.

749

Bill Duke is in this.

750

Bill Duke is a phenomenal actor.

751

Khandi Alexander's in this.

752

Clifton Powell.

753

Clifton Powell’s in this. Yep.

754

He. I was just looking at him, he's

been in a lot of stuff Clifton Powell.

755

Yeah. Dead Presidents.

756

Friday After Next.

757

Rush Hour.

758

He's still still doing things this year.

759

Great cast.

760

Yeah What about the soundtrack?

761

Had some

762

obviously MC Eiht’s on there.

763

Too $hort, Too $hort.

764

Pete Rock and CL Smooth.

765

Brand Nubian. Boogie Down Productions.

I love the soundtrack.

766

I listened to the soundtrack.

I had the CD.

767

Okay. And I listened to it.

768

I mean, almost every day,

the summer of 94.

769

And I had that CD

770

I got to Rider

and somebody stole it out of my room.

771

I went to play it one time.

772

I was like, Where’s my CD at?

773

How ironic.

774

They left the case.

775

They left the case!

776

Oh man, that's that's cold hearted.

777

I know we mentioned this one

when we were talking

778

about the best soundtracks

with DJ ARM and Cap Cee.

779

I don't know where it ranked,

but it was up there. It was up there.

780

And this was one my picks,

the soundtrack was one of my picks. You

781

go back and listen to that episode.

782

If you're into hip hop music

783

and soundtracks,

784

we list out a whole bunch on an episode.

785

Yeah, I enjoyed the music.

786

No one song really stood out to me

like, this track aww.

787

But I was I was head bobbing to

788

most of the songs that came on.

789

One other comment I and I had it was like,

I think like the action, the conclusion

790

kind of all happened pretty fast,

like the scene where it was like,

791

Ilena called Caine tells him

she's pregnant and like, he denies it.

792

And then like the scene with Chauncey

and then the retaila-, the brutal

793

stomping of Ilena’s cousin, like,

I think they, like,

794

brought it to a conclusion pretty quickly.

795

And I was like, wow.

796

My head was kind of spinning a little bit

at the end.

797

Yeah.

798

I don't know

if you guys had the same feeling.

799

You know?

800

Yeah, it did.

801

You know, the crazy

and crazy thing about it is that

802

that's just

how quickly things can get out of hand.

803

Unraveled that quick.

804

Yeah.

805

You know, if everybody moves off of

impulses, you go from 0 to 100 real quick.

806

Yeah. Yeah. Well,

807

yeah, I feel like Boyz N the Hood

808

also, that climax scene

sort of took longer to play out.

809

And this one was like,

boom, drive by, it's over.

810

Right?

811

And like, those guys weren't

even that scene with that whole scene,

812

it brought those guys into the fold who

happened like much earlier in the movie.

813

Like,

814

it wasn't even interesting, it’s

like oh yeah.

815

Remember that guy right there?

816

Yeah, that's him. Yeah.

817

You hadn't seen them, like, for, like,

818

good, like, you know, half an hour

or something like that.

819

Yeah.

820

And I really felt bad for Sharif.

821

Yeah.

822

Him getting killed in a drive

by was like, man.

823

Yeah. That was really sad for me.

824

Yeah, that was.

825

That was extremely sad

826

because he was really trying to get out

and he was, he was friends with them.

827

But you, you could clearly see

that his head was in another place.

828

Yeah.

829

He, he, he was supposed to be doing

different things.

830

Yeah. Mr. Butler having to bury him.

831

He was mature behind beyond his years.

832

Yeah.

833

And on a higher plane.

834

I still can't get over

the fact that the Hughes brothers

835

were 20 years old when they made the film.

836

And the final, final,

very final scene was powerful.

837

Like, as Caine is slowly,

838

you know, dying from his wounds

and like, he's recalling his grandfather,

839

asking him if he cares

whether he lives or dies,

840

because that was one of those quotes,

like, do you care if you live or die?

841

And it's almost like he comes

to that realization too late that,

842

yeah,

I kind of do, but it's too late. Like

843

he had no care for that.

844

Like he was thought

he either thought he was invincible or

845

he just hid his

feelings because he had that

846

hard exterior and that hard

847

upbringing where he was desensitized

848

to everything but deep down,

he he had a lot to live for.

849

You know, he could have start a new life

850

with Ronnie in Atlanta,

you know, help raise Anthony

851

and reform himself.

852

But he didn’t

853

really get an opportunity.

854

On the flip side, though,

after I watched that whole scene,

855

first thing that popped into my head

was the Don't Be a Menace

856

to South Central While Drinking Your Juice

in the Hood version of it.

857

You know, And.

858

I almost feel like I have to go back

and rewatch that one again.

859

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

860

How everything is exactly parodied.

861

You definitely have rewatch that movie.

862

Right.

863

It'll make it so much funny, somewhat

funnier because.

864

Now you see all the references.

865

All the references. Yeah. Yeah.

866

While it’s

fresh in my head. Is it. Because it's.

867

Yeah, I mean, it's clear.

868

Clear references to Boyz N the Hood. Yeah.

869

Throughout the whole movie.

870

What?

871

Yeah.

872

Like we said, they, they really the Wayans

brothers did their homework on that.

873

Like they really, like analyze

every scene and like, Yeah, yeah.

874

Some of it's word for word or parody.

875

Each word is parody or like each scene

876

to the T is like, wow.

877

Yeah, they really. Ilena’s

cousin is in it.

878

That's the guy. The same guy.

879

Samuel Monroe, Junior same guy.

880

That’s classic.

881

Same scenario.

882

Yeah.

883

Like, wow.

884

Wow.

885

BooGie,

what do you say on Menace II Society?

886

Bring that funky flick back.

887

Bring that funky flick back

or leave it in the vault.

888

For it’s cultural relevancy.

889

It's very raw,

but yeah, bring that funky flick back.

890

Okay, DynoWright?

891

I think this movie still resonates,

892

so I will bring this funky flick back.

893

And I am of the same vein.

894

I will bring this funky flick back.

895

Like I said, we talk about like,

I like Boyz N the Hood better overall.

896

Like Boyz N the Hood is one

897

that I would rewatch more willingly,

like multiple times.

898

For me,

this one's very brutal and raw and like,

899

really well-done and super relevant

900

and strong messages,

901

but like, it's one that I wouldn't watch

maybe multiple times

902

or like kind of

just leave it on in the background.

903

It's uncomfortable.

904

Yeah, right.

905

That's probably why you're comfortable.

906

Really uncomfortable.

907

Like that.

908

More of a comedies, comedy guy

or like, stuff like that.

909

But yeah, that's, that's kind of why.

910

But that was again,

that was the Hughes Brothers’ plan.

911

Like they accomplished

what they set out to do.

912

Shock value.

913

1993. Wow.

914

I mean, 30 years ago.

915

Yeah.

916

And you’re putting it out there.

917

So yeah, kudos to them.

918

This is one hip hop fans and crime

drama fans should see

919

if you haven't already.

920

Bring it!

921

C’mon!

922

Hip Hop Movie Club is produced

by your HHMC’s JB, BooGie, and DynoWright.

923

Theme music by BooGie.

924

Bring it! C’mon!

925

Check us out on Facebook and Instagram

@HipHopMovieClub.

926

(Bring it!

927

C’mon!) On the next episode of the Hip Hop

928

Movie Club podcast,

your HHMC’s will review Hustle and Flow.

929

Subscribe now on your favorite podcast app

and you won't miss it.

930

Shout out to you listeners.

931

Thanks for tuning in.

932

And remember, don't hate. Levitate.

933

Bring

934

it! Levitate.

935

Rise above it all.

936

That’s what Caine should have done but.

937

Caine should have

levitated and rose above it.

938

The song Levitate with Da Baby and Dua

Lipa.

939

That was. Big. Yeah. Couple years ago.

940

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

941

My daughter loved that one.

942

She was singing a lot.

943

Catchy. That's very catchy.