Elan Jones and Bradley Robinson are two of the best MSP salespeople in the country — and they work at the same company. Elan sold beer and cannabis before walking into IT sales the month the world locked down, then won MSP Salesperson of the Year. Bradley came from operations and project management, had never really sold, and became a two-time national Sales Champion finalist. Neither came from tech.

This one's a first for the show: two sellers from the same shop, eCreek IT in Denver, breaking down a sales process repeatable enough to mint champions out of totally different people. We get into selling with confidence, why price objections are usually a value problem, how they keep a discovery call conversational without abandoning the checklist, the camaraderie of a two-person sales team, and where AI actually helps versus where it's just noise. If you're an MSP owner trying to build a sales engine that doesn't depend on you, this is the playbook.

What You'll Learn

• Why most price objections are really value problems from a weak discovery call

• How to keep a discovery call conversational without abandoning the checklist

• What it actually takes for an MSP owner to replace themselves in sales

• Why drive beats credentials every time (and the camping story that proves it)

• Where AI genuinely helps in sales — and where the human-first approach still wins

Books & Resources Referenced

• Myers-Briggs Type Indicator — Elan and Bradley both tested as ENTJ despite their different backgrounds. - https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/

• Calendly (referenced as "Calum"/scheduling tool) — automated meeting reminders and follow-ups. - https://calendly.com

GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) — the emerging practice of optimizing to be recommended by AI search, discussed re: getting surfaced by ChatGPT for "IT providers in Denver."

A lot of MSPs struggle to get one sales person to take over for founder led sales, and getting even one person to do that is is tough for for a lot of folks. You have two great sellers like I work, I've worked with you guys for for years and both of you very good, but also different. It's repeatable results. You've got repeatable outcomes in a very difficult thing to do with different people from also different backgrounds.

Almost every MSP owner that I work with runs into the same wall. They can't get a single seller to replace the selling activity that they've been doing themselves, and it is one of the hardest transitions to make in business, whether you're in it or anything else. E Creek, it has done it two times. There are Denver based MSP and Ellen Jones came from cannabis and brewing before he joined E Creek.

Bradley Robinson came from operations in PMO, so neither of them had an IT sales background before joining, but both of them are Our national sales champion. Finalist Ellen Jones actually won the National MSP Sales Champion of the year award two years ago. Bradley has been a finalist in that same national award for two years in a row.

That's why this episode is really fun for me, because it's basically a science experiment. You've got the same system, two completely different people with two very different personalities and different backgrounds. Same process, similar results. In this episode. Where we're going to do is we're going to break down and kind of pull apart.

Like the world's lockdown. Like this is this is you going into E Creek from an IT sales standpoint. And it's at the exact time they're like they're making handshakes illegal. Like, you know, relationship selling is is changing and you haven't done it. Sales before you've done sales like your brewery, cannabis, things like that before, but not in it.

Walk me through the decision to start IT sales at that point in time.

Uh, you know, like many things in life, you kind of just take what hand you're given. Um, I had an opportunity. I've always been interested in technology. You know, I'm not a technical person by nature. I don't service or clients or anything. But I'm a curious person. I always have strived to learn new things, and I've always built my own things and build my own computers.

Built my own sound systems, installed, you know, sound system, the cars, home audio, those kind of things. Um, and have the opportunity to kind of get into technology. Seized it. You know, the timing wasn't the greatest because of Covid, but it actually, for us was really great timing, because what happened at that time is we had to assist all of our our current clients move from working in the office to remote work.

So we kind of had a little renaissance of business. And, um, we were classified as an essential business, so we still met with people. It would still be awkward. Like, do I go into this sales proposal and shake the guy's hand or, you know, do they want to stand ten feet away? It wasn't necessarily timing as much as the opportunity, and I kind of just jumped in and went with it.

It was a very awkward time to kind of transition, but I kind of looked back on it that it was honestly like a kind of great transition time to move into a new industry. People are already awkward. People don't really know what's going on. So I kind of could seize in. And the awkwardness wasn't me moving from one industry where I was an expert to something that I was learning.

Yeah, that's.

A good point, man. When you say.

That.

Like, because everybody's just getting used to this style of conversation, how we do things. So and anytime you take like a new sales job, there's a it's clunky a little bit at the beginning, but in your case clunky was how we were all talking and interacting with each other at the time. So nobody could tell you?

No, it seemed seemed normal.

Humans are inherently animals, right? And they can instinctively smell blood. So if you show like weakness or nervousness or awkwardness, they pick up on it, you know, whether you want them to or not. So it was kind of great. Like I could go in and be awkward, but everyone was already experiencing that.

Is that something that you you leverage from a sales standpoint like that, that people can smell when you're nervous? I've had to project confidence, even if I'm not, or even if this is a complex deal or something like that. How does that play out in sales for you?

100%? I mean, we just had one the other day, and I think the average person sales person was always struggling with like grace. Right? Like, how do I get them to not be bothered by the price? But you have to have the confidence. And if you're selling product or service that is legitimate and does have value, um, you have to go in and, and communicate that in a confident way.

And nobody wants to spend money. That's just the simple fact of life. But if you can explain the value to them and why it's important, and that they're going to get a good bang for their buck, it shouldn't be a problem. No matter what your price is. If you can put your money where your mouth is and deliver a service.

And what helps me personally with that is I always think when I personally in my own life, go to buy a professional service, right? You go to a mechanic to get your car fixed, to go to a doctor, you go to the dentist, you go, you know, an eye doctor. If you have glasses, you're not really questioning. Maybe if you go to the mechanic, you question the price.

But if you go to a doctor, you're not really questioning what they're charging you. Right? Like, of course you have insurance and you have to deal with that whole fiasco. But the doctor is not worried about the cost. The doctor is worried about getting you healthy and getting you the the treatment that you need for whatever you're going in there for.

And they're not focusing on the cost and delivering on that cost. We had a really good talk the other day, Elon, about the server count for that law firm. It's one physical server, but it's the server. Plus the two virtual machines. So the cost went up pretty substantially. And I'm like, oh man, I hate to break it to this guy.

We told him one price, but this is the this is the way it should be done. So it's got to be done this way. And so he's like, dude, get out of your head. This just say the cost, say the counts. That's the right way to do it. Be confident in how you say it. And I'm like, you're right. And I said it confidently and it kind of it just rolled into the understanding and the confidence just kind of said it reassured him this is the right way to do this.

And one example of just how your confidence can come across and just push things over the where you need to get them to be.

Well, there's probably like two themes under there, right? Like one is your doctor versus your mechanic and you're like, well, maybe, maybe not your mechanic. But to me that's signals, that's the trust issue. When I go see my doctor that I've been going to for 15 years. And he says, this is the prescription to take.

And then I go. And I go by the prescription. And it's more money than I expected I don't go. Dude, he totally rip me off. Like, that's. There's no way that he could have done this a different way. You know, I, I go, okay, like, if that's what it takes. But the mechanic I might but I think that that's it's a trust indicator.

I probably trust my mechanic less than I do my, my my doctor establishing that as a seller is really hard. You know, even even if you're selling professional services, establishing that as a as a seller can be difficult. Bradley, how do you establish trust or try to recreate that environment as a seller?

Well, I think I think it starts with genuine curiosity and a willingness to help, like a wanting and willingness to help rather than coming from a place of, I want to sell you tools. It should be. It should come from a place of let me hear what your needs are. Let me hear your requirements. What are you wanting and really asking questions and coming from a place of curiosity and consultation rather than just a sales individual.

I try to educate and I try to ask questions and be genuinely curious. A lot of these businesses we work with are really cool and they need help, and we're the people to do it so well.

And the better the question you ask, the better you understand the problem and the better you understand the problem, the more confidence you probably have and that the solution you're selling works, you know? And so you can project that confidence a lot more. And I, I think it also ties into, you know, you mentioned price along the the second half of that is a lot of companies don't charge enough to offer really good service, which then leads to a lack of confidence in selling.

And so sometimes you can kind of flip the price thing around, like you guys had to charge the right amount to that law firm to deliver the right service to keep the customer in the long run. You know what I mean? Like, so it's a you get one of the worst things you could do is not charge enough and not ask for enough money on the front end.

Right. And when you stumble over delivering that message. It's like, oh, is this really the right way to do this? So, and the guy didn't even question you. Like he Bradley was so in his head. And then I you know, we talked about it for a good hour and I'm like, just go in. It is what it is. Like you can't change that, right.

So going with the confidence and and have them feel that. And it wasn't even a problem. You didn't even bat an eye. But with the, uh, with the service delivery and the price, that's a really great point. And I think that's somebody that's something that everyone kind of has to learn their own. Because how do you balance the price with the service?

You know, that's kind of up to you and your service delivery, but you want to get over that hump. Because if you even if you get that customer and they don't have that trust built with you, right, let's say let's say you got the deal sold on, on the value of or the tools, right, that you're selling the features and all that stuff.

And they're like, oh, that sounds really great. You must have the best tools out there that any IT company, you're still not building that trust in the long term relationship. It's going to be hard to keep them because they're just going to go to the next shiny thing, and then they're not really confident in your capabilities as a service provider than they are in the tools that you're providing.

So it's really important to sell on the value and the partnership and being that trusted partner in that trusted authority, because that's really what leads to long term success, and that's how you really make your money over the years.

And would you say, because you mentioned the tools, which is something I definitely wanted to get to since since we're there, you know, that's one of the challenges. A lot of a lot of MSP sellers specifically run into is it becomes a very technical feature based comparison, right? Like, it's like you're looking at a one of those product charts that's like X is on one side and you know, comparing features.

And that's it's a tough way to sell. And it sounds like you probably you both to to an extent are are trying not to sell on the tool stack. So how much of it is the tools? And if it's not, what is it about?

Then we sell based on the knowledge. So in our discovery call we kind of ask like, hey, have you worked with an IT company? Do you have a guy? Is it your coworkers kid who's in college that's taking care of your it? Like, what's your knowledge level with working with professional IT? And if they've never worked with professional IT, then we have to educate them on on what we do.

And the reaction to a lot of people is like, Holy crap, you guys are like a Ferrari. You know, I'm looking for a Honda Civic. I didn't know you guys can do all those things, but you're you're establishing the value right there, um, in relation to the cost. And then they're understanding the cost. Right. And if you do have an experienced buyer that has worked with a professional, it then they already have the assumption that you're going to be providing those tools anyways.

In the end, we rarely even discuss the tools because it's under the assumption the service is going to be delivered with those tools included with or without us, right? Like if you're getting any comprehensive it from anybody. That's the bare minimum. That's the bare bar that everyone should be over.

And they're really not right. But we have to differentiate ourselves by explaining that and showing them that's our base. And it's this much higher than everyone else's. Sometimes they struggle with getting too deep into the tools because I'm a technical person and I like explaining how it works because one, I think it's cool.

And two, uh, they should do right now. So sometimes I lean a little bit too hard on the tool stack. But Alan has been working with me a lot to. I think the sauce, the secret sauce, is connecting their wants, needs and pain points to your tools and how those tools resolve those issues. Like, it's great that your ETR is 24 over seven monitoring, but how do you connect that back to their security needs and that I think that's the the secret sauce there.

Um, but if you have a good time talking technically with an individual who can keep up. Um, it's kind of nice to have those conversations, but, um, you def I think the secret sauce is connecting their needs to the tool and and showing them how it's connected. And that builds the trust. You're not just shoving a tool in their face.

You're you're showing them why you're educating them a little bit. And I think that helps build the trust to.

How do you find the balance on, like when you have a technical conversation, because a lot of MSP sellers are actually the owners, and so they are very technical and they and they love the tech and they and they would, they would stay in that conversation all day long if they, if they could. But you're saying it's okay.

There's some benefit to that, to having that conversation getting into that. But at the same time you can't have that be the entire rabbit hole. How do you balance that as somebody who loves the tech but also recognizes, hey, I have to continue to move this deal forward at the same time.

You gotta read the body language. Allen is always telling me to read the room. And if you can tell when people are losing interest, you can tell when the conversation isn't going. Um, you know, is kind of in the weeds a little bit. So if you can get a sense of the room, you can walk that line. But sometimes Alan's got to be like, enough, enough about the tool.

It helps to have. It helps to have, you know, someone there with you. But, uh, it is tough finding the balance. So if you've got a partner, just throw something at them. If they're talking too much, it's good because it shows enthusiasm. It shows you care, it shows you, you know, you're invested in what you're doing.

And you alluded Alan, like, you're you're somewhat technical. I mean, maybe not full on it, but, you know, somewhat technically minded. And then Bradley, you've mentioned the same thing and I it's funny, as you mentioned it, because I say I'm not a tech person, but I'm. I'm a tech person in so many other ways.

Like not necessarily the IT room, but all over. Like I'm I'm the wires and the gadgets and the gears and I and I have been. Do you, do you have to love technology to sell it services?

I'm laughing because my first thought goes to like Microsoft and I absolutely hate Microsoft and we have to deal with them, you know, uh, but it's kind of funny because it's like, I like technology, but then you have you're forced to work with, you know, these mega corporations which, uh, your hands are tied when, when you're dealing with them, everyone's hands are tied, right?

Like, you gotta just deal with the product. So it's like a love hate relationship, you know? And, um, I think the the where we have the most fun and the most success is where people and our customers or even prospects like, really embrace technology and the forward thinking individuals. You know, all the rage is AI right now.

All of our customers come to us first because we're the tech people. And, um, that's really the fun stuff is like, we're going to think outside the box and come up with a unique solution for somebody that's not like cookie cutter or a problem that's already solved.

I think it comes back to really loving what you do. I love helping people, I love technology and it's kind of a nice blend of the both. So if you're going to if you're going to make a career out of this, I think you have to love technology. Um, you know, if it's something that doesn't, you know, keep you curious.

You know, I wake up out of bed every morning excited to learn more. Um, but I think having a genuine interest and curiosity in this field will take you a lot further than not.

Given your background. So you got there. Ellen had been there for a couple of years. And, you know, we'll we'll talk about that, like from a process standpoint, but from primarily an OP standpoint. What did you have to learn to quote unquote like learn sales. Like what what did you have to learn from what what Ellen was doing in the process in order to be successful?

I think Ellen has been a great coach on

not being such a salesperson and being more consultative and, you know, curious. I think Ellen showed me the way of having a conversation and still getting the sales information out of that conversation without having it be so, uh, so rigid. Right. He's. Ellen's really good at, you know, kicking back and and getting the information you need, but not having it feel like a sales call.

So I had to learn how to, um, you know, not be so salesy, you know, have more of a conversation. Obviously, I have to learn, you know, the culture of E Creek, uh, belongs is very good at keeping things casual with clients, even on big, high stakes sales environments. Um, so learning a ton. But I think that's what helped me the most.

The balance between getting like the sale and then the natural, organic conversation. How do you align if you're teaching that to someone? So say you're you're coaching Bradley as he's as he's learning that. How do you juggle relationship and organic conversation with process and and sales like those two things?

A lot of times people would say they can collide like, I'm a relationship seller and I'm a process seller, and what I'm here is it's a little bit of both. How do you balance that?

I always have my checklist here with, uh, you know, the information I'm trying to gather from a discovery call or consultation? Right. I have my end goals, but really that aligns in your in your preparation, putting forth the effort to prepare and not just a link. Right. Like and because if you wing it, you're just going to be looking at your checklist of information you want.

And then the interaction is much more, um, like transactional where they feel like they're going in and they're like, they know that you're just going off of a list and asking questions, and it doesn't really you're not a expressing that you actually care about their business and their unique things.

Like everyone inherently feel special, right? So they're to themselves more than anyone else thinks that you're special. Right. And it kind of sounds that might sound a little weird, but I do think that's true. But people like being treated like that, and they like when you ask them questions. So before we even talk about anything, it I'm always asking people about their business, like how they started their business, how long they've been in business.

Now, if maybe it's not the owner, but it's their clo, like how they got into that business where they work before, and that's just like an icebreaker to, uh, really loosen them up, to have a conversation, but also showing you care and you're investing your knowledge into understanding their history. Okay.

And and that's going to give you the little things that put you over the edge of anyone else who will just say is offering the same exact thing. I'm always just so impressed how effortless it is for you. Sometimes alone, you know, you'll step into a meeting.

With me, and in five minutes you have a little piece of information nugget that I never had. Right? And you've been in the room for 30s, and you're just asking, you know, basic questions, but you're genuinely curious, and it comes off as you know, we want to learn more about your business, you know, not just your IT needs.

Are you aware of that being a superpower along like you know that you can walk in and get that information and is it coachable?

I've never really thought of it that way. I've known I've always been a people person. Like, I've always been able to get along with all kinds of different people's, all different, you know, backgrounds, sales. For me, I never when I were growing up, I was like, I want to be a sales guy. You know, I just kind of fell into that position naturally.

When, when, when I was in college, I was actually working in a in a warehouse for chorus, uh, stocking pallets and the, um, sales director there, you know, he's been there. I call him beer dinosaurs. He's been there working, like, 60 years, a great guy. I still think about his advice every day, but he actually approached me when I was in the warehouse driving a forklift, and he said, hey, come on, you ever think about being in sales now?

Because I would always say hi and wave to everybody and I, you know, harken and, uh, he saw that in me, and then he's like, come, you know, do like a little, uh, internship and, uh, some ride alongs with some of our actual sales reps. And, and then I just was like a natural at it. And that's kind of where my, my start was in sales.

I've always just people have always said that, you know, I get to nickname with my friends, uh, Cool Jones. Uh, and uh, I guess I, I it is a superpower.

So cool. Jones how do you train that? How do you train other people to do that? Is it possible or is that like a. Hey, that's a natural characteristic.

I think you train it. And how we how I have trained it is just have a real conversation with people. If you're not sure on something or if something's not clear is you can always ask a clarifying question. And not clarifying question is good for two things. It's good for you getting the correct information, but it also shows that you're engaged, that you're listening, and that you're asking these things because it's important to clarify, so they know that you're putting forth more effort than just like checking a box.

We'll just say QuickBooks or something like I'm asking them how they do their accounting. Are we going to have to back that information up? Uh, and in my mind I'm thinking backups for IT support. But how I ask the customer is, well, what happens if that fails for you? Uh, what's your process and how you use that software?

Do you, like, log on from any computer? Do you log in from one computer? Have you ever experienced issues with that in the past? You know, how dependent is your business on that? And I'm asking them things like how they operate. It really I'm thinking like how critical is that? Like, do I need to be putting in additional effort to make sure that we're taken care of?

That is the unique thing. Do I need to let my internal team know like this is a priority for them? Like make sure we have we triple check it, right? That we're doing the right thing. But it always comes in on a conversation. And and they genuinely interested in their business and caring to have that be successful.

Tell me about the checklist. How much does that drive what you're doing? Is it just a is it a loose frame or is it like this is outcome based and the the process? I can get there different ways, but this is the outcome that I need. How much. What's on it. What drives your how much does it drive your process? Uh, Bradley.

Will tell you I'm pretty strict about the process. Oh, I don't care which road you take to get there, what the end goal needs to have. We need to have all the answers on our on our checklist. Right. Just like anything in our business, it's all process driven. That is, uh, we have to follow so we can like, scale and replicate that.

And if every time and we always, anytime we deviate from that, there's always a repercussion. And then, um, because we follow that process, I can look back and figure out where we broke it. And then it's kind of like, well, this is why we didn't we don't break that process. This is why we get that information.

Don't skip that step kind of thing. What I learn from you is it's okay to deviate, but make sure you're not just changing everything. Like change small parts so you can track and monitor the effect and the ripple effect on those changes.

The variable one variable at a time. So you kind of know know what's changing to a degree. Bradley, what were you saying.

We'll look at a deal that maybe didn't go our way. And we'll look at that checklist and make sure. Did you have this piece of information at this point in the sales process? Do you know their process? You know, if I say it was a good discovery call, Elon says good. How? Tell me how it was good. You know, look at these.

Look at these questions like are we good? And I'm like what was a good conversation? It's like, well you don't understand their buying criteria. It's like, well yeah. Shit. Well you know, let's we'll remember that next time. You know. And so having that checklist is like a baseline. How good was your discovery call?

I mean I'm sure there was a lovely person. But if you don't get this information you're a step behind. And now you're you're. You know, so it's very important to have some sort of, uh, litmus test of how good that discovery call went. Not just it was a good conversation. What did you get out of it? What did they get out of it?

Yeah, it's the natural sales manager thing. Because every when you ask a question about discovery, almost all of them, it was good. It was a good call, you know. And okay, so tell me what does that mean. Like, let's let's break it down into like what was what information do we have? And the checklist helps if you look at the checklist.

Most people hear this and they're going to think, oh these are all technical questions like how many locations, how many servers, how many users, how many on your on your checklist? What percentage of the questions and the outcomes you're looking for are technical versus non-technical?

None of the questions are technical. Um, if you do have technical questions and like the best example of those are, uh, you know, use your count how many locations like these easy, tangible things. I either frame it as, hey, I'm going to ask you the boring IT questions, right? Because I have to get this information.

Um, or they naturally come out when you're asking them about their business, how they operate. Right. They're going to they're going to open up these things and say, oh, I have a satellite office on the other side of town or in a different state. And, you know, five people work there, and you can open that up to, to understanding, like, well, do they work remotely?

Do they work on site? Like, do they you know, how how does the how do those things work? And people just naturally give you that information. You want to let them keep talking and they'll give it to you. But if you don't get it and you're like running low on time, that's the kind of stuff that you save for the email, right?

Like they can just write. I have five people that work here and I have two locations. You don't need to waste the valuable time you have with that person asking those kind of granular things.

Bradley, are you operating from the same checklist or do you guys have it's the same, same outcome driven steps here. Right.

Yeah. We're both looking down. I'm almost curious. You know, jump along with a, uh, a discovery called checklist. Right? Did you get there buying criteria alone?

Well, I do I do have him because I, you know, you have to have checks and balances. And anyone that says they're perfect is is full of it. But I, you know, I like have to go through all the things that I did with with Bradley and like, hey, man, like real me. What am I missing on this? You know, we have to be, uh, two peas in a pod and kind of checking everything, checking each other.

Holding each other to that standard is helpful, too. It's. It's nice having a duo sales team, you know, just the one solo sales guy. That's really tough. I mean, you can do it. Sure, but, uh, you just get so much more support, so much more, uh, camaraderie. You know, if you got a team. So it'd be very hard for a single sales guy to to move stuff like we do.

But yeah, we're working off the same list. You know, we're we're holding each other to the same standards. Um, you know, sometimes, sometimes I'm not rocking and rolling on a week. You know, Alan will pick me up. We're bouncing that energy off each other and and trying to, you know, keep, you know, spirits high.

And I think it's a little easier to do with two people.

How much of the two people dynamic is camaraderie versus competitive, like is there is there healthy competition that that feeds this? Is it pure camaraderie and collaboration? What's that like?

I think we're naturally competitive people. Yeah. Um, so we're always, you know, busting each other's chops about getting this and that done. But I think it's mostly camaraderie. It's mostly like, hey, let's let's do this, you know, let's see how far we can take this. Alan's really good at pushing

the sales division. Um, further than the technical stuff. Like, Alan is really pushing to improve things, really driving things even more sometimes than the technical team. Like let's improve. Let's tighten things up.

On the delivery side, you mean, so like even on the tech side to help sales is what you're saying?

Yeah, yeah, sometimes it sometimes it feels like we. Our foot is on the gas 20, you know, and the technical team is trying to catch up to all these, these new opportunities we're bringing on. He's driving the ship sometimes you know, that's.

You.

Know.

It's.

A really good question because both of you guys have done phenomenal in sales. And the the one of the tensions with with service delivery models, service businesses in general is usually you've got sales who want to like step on the gas and then you've got delivery that says, hold on, guys. Like we're not trying to we're not trying to hold the company up, but we you're moving a little too quick.

And I've I've always come from one side of the house. Right. Like I've come from the sales and revenue side of the house. So I'm like, guys, you just got to figure it out. Like, let's we gotta keep going. We don't stop momentum. Have you guys reached points where you said, hey, we need to slow down. Or has the has the mindset been?

We got to keep going and figure it out as we go. We can't lose momentum.

I can tell you I've had many heated debates with my CTO,

um, you know, but it's like if we stop, we lose the momentum, so we can't stop. We just have to keep going. We have to figure it out as we go. There's no stopping because that's I forget who says it. But when you get past being a small business and you have 30 staff, that's probably the hardest to getting, you know, to like 100 staff that like range.

Um, and that's I think that's because a lot of people can't get that synergy going between the sales and then the supporting service delivery. And that breakdown is where people, they either tell their sales teams to slow down and not sell, right. Um, or the service just can't, can't keep up and they just lose customers or things like that.

But you have to figure it out And I think where we really excel and have been really, um, fortunate is we have like a very you almost say very young, but we do have like a younger leadership team that is like very active, very hands on, like we try to solve problems in a unique way. Uh, we always have different, uh, we use different tools than, than the industry because we don't want all our eggs in one basket.

Like, we've always done things the hard way, for lack of a better term. And that's kind of made us be much more flexible and adaptable to be able to change and pivot and adapt. But that's really like we have that structure and our processes, but we don't want to slow down, but we, you know, are open to changing if we need to change and adjusting if you need to.

How are those debates handled? Like so when they when they've reached an inflection point, is there like a tie breaker. Just Scott like the owner come in can say, all right, I'm breaking the tie or do you guys is there like an overarching principle that we're probably going to keep going and and we've got to figure this piece out.

Like, what's that been like?

Yeah. You know, I think, uh, when we're in those heated moments and it's more passion than it is, uh, anything else? You know, we'll take a little break and say, hey, let's come back to this, because obviously we're not making progress. The understanding is like, you know, we're in growth mode where we want to grow, we want to scale.

We don't want to be stagnant. Um, so we're all in the same team. It's, uh, just which road are we going to take to get there, and how are we going to do it? We always end up like, you know, waxing about it or having fun. And it's, you know, we're usually still come in and say, you know, you guys are arguing at each other about the same things.

They're like, yeah, you know, you know, I think it's important.

To be passionate about what you're doing though. If you can't, you know, stand up and fight for what you're trying to do. You know, you're going to you're going to reach some, some resistance. But I think that's where the growth happens. Kind of finding the middle ground for that. Um, I think it's healthy tension lists.

Relationships are probably like they're they're they're not growth oriented. They're not. They're not real. You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing about any relationship that you have anywhere, there's always some tension and that's healthy. Like that's an overcoming. That tension is growth and everything else comes from it.

And to your point, Bradley, if you have people who aren't willing to fight for growth or quality in the seat that they're in, whether that's sales or the delivery side, you know, may not have the right, the right people there. Now, you mentioned the camaraderie piece. And so this is the the interesting is like with the dynamic between the two of you.

Completely agree. I've always said like I'd, I'd rather manage a sales team of 100 than a sales team of one, you know, because there's so many benefits from having multiple people in the same in the same seat data results, like you guys talking about morale, like all that, all that stuff. But while you were there for, what, two years can seem like you didn't have that same dynamic or did you with someone else?

Like how what was different about that for the first couple of years before Bradley joined?

It was a lot of learning. It was rough. I wouldn't say it was like the most fun thing, you know? I think you could ask any salesperson that has started a business from virtually nothing and like, built a book of business, that it's probably the hardest thing to do. Um, it's it's probably one of the hardest jobs, you know, not like physically, but definitely mentally tolling, uh, because, you know, I guess we'll always keeps me going is I have other people's jobs dependent on us being successful.

I want other people to be able to work and and have a job and get, um, you know, hire more people. I found success is I've transitioned from multiple different industries, um, working in ultra competitive, you know, for Coors, that gets Budweiser, probably the, you know, one of the oldest rivalries. They're they're unknown in modern day business, but but into transitioning into like a very new up and coming industry with cannabis, where honestly, no one knew what the hell they were doing, and there's a lot of women in it and kind of figuring out as you go.

But you have the overarching federal government that could rain on your day. You know, you're parading day. So I've always had that, like, you know, I don't necessarily know what's going to come next, but I'm going to put forth the best that I can. And if it works, it works. And and just having that mindset and I thrive.

We'll find success in mine.

And you were if for if our car read properly like there was, there was a setback from a company saying there was like a massive client loss, like a huge client loss, like it was a big step back and it was like a rebuild phase. And what's what's cool is like seeing you guys, you were the sales engine of the of of rebuilding and regrowing a lot of it.

And that's I imagine that makes it a little bit even harder. Right. Like because you're not just building up a book of business in a long time established, this is like there's some Turn around. Type of type of environment happening? Did that make things more difficult from a timing standpoint or or no.

Yeah I mean we did lose our we lost our biggest client which took like, you know rough estimate 30. It was 30, 30 to 40% of our annual revenue. And they lost a they lost a state contract. And, uh, you know, so it was completely out of our control. It wasn't like we screwed up or anything. Um, but luckily, because we had a very strong sales process, we were able actually to recapture that lost revenue and more.

And, you know, we didn't even have to question if we were going to lay off people or, you know, or people would have to lose their job. Like, we were able to just keep trucking and rebuild that and grow and actually stay positive, which, you know, I think if we didn't have that structured sales process and we're doing all those steps and following it now, we We could have went out of business.

And what is the process? How do you describe it today? Like if somebody said, what is your sales process and how similar is it between the two of you guys doing the discovery?

Understanding the pain points, getting in front of all the right people, getting there, consulting them, understanding each decision makers priorities, what they care about, what they, you know, high level and goal. What they want. Putting together a cohesive, easy to understand plan and then like a roadmap on how you're going to deliver that and and really making that decision as, as easy as possible.

That's on the front end. But on the back end is looking at your, you know, the top of your funnel on your inbounds or your outreach, uh, doing that math to make sure that you have enough activity to hit those numbers. Um, and you have the drive to turn on other levers or other pipelines if you feel something's dipping, You know, if you feel like your stars aren't performing, or maybe your SEO or your marketing, like you get off your ass and go outside.

Knock on doors. I mean, that's literally what we do.

What's wild about this interview in particular for me is like from a sales standpoint, you know, a lot of MSPs struggle to get one sales person to take over for founder led sales, right? That transition is grueling for a lot of a lot of MSP owners, and getting even one person to do that is is tough for for a lot of folks.

What's incredible is E Creek. You have two great sellers. Like I work I've worked with you guys for, for years and both of you are very good, but also different, you know, so it's like it's repeatable results, you've got repeatable outcomes and a very difficult thing to do with different people from also different backgrounds.

Ellen, you've got some sales, you've got the brewery, you've got this like what relationship selling. And then Bradley, you come largely from ops PMO. So it's like I'm fascinated by things like this because you get similar outcomes from different backgrounds. Hard to solve problem. And I'm, I'm just curious when you when you look at this, what is something that you guys do similarly every single week.

And then what is something that you guys don't do similarly. Like where's, where are the the things that these are non-negotiables. We're always this is part of the repeatable thing. And then these are hey different. Different people do it different ways.

We are very different people. And that's uh, I think that's important. That shows that your process works, that whatever you're standardizing is, is successful. And for me, my my honest take is I could care less what someone has done in the past, what their education level is. The much more important thing is like your drive and desire to just show up and get the job done.

Like if you have a very high work ethic. I would much rather work with you and take you under my wing than, um. If you come and say I have all these credentials in this experience and yada yada, ya, because work ethic is the the most core important thing. And there's a plenty story I'll tell about Bradley when when he was first interviewing, he was, uh, camping and he missed her like follow up to like, hey, schedule an interview.

And so like, well, I guess I never heard back from him, I guess is not interested in the job. And, uh, then he like, called like first thing like Monday morning when he got service, he called frantically and we were about to close the interviews and were telling him, no, no, we already closed the interviews, but he was like super adamant about getting the interviews like, no, I was camping.

Like, I want this job. Like I, you know, like I could see that he had that drive to make it happen. And I was like, this is perfect. This is what I want the guy to do to our prospects. Right? Like, never let that door close on you. Like, shove your foot in it and make sure it doesn't close in. Like just try. All you have to do is try and put forth that effort.

Give me a.

Chance.

I said give me one. Give me one.

Hour.

Just don't close it yet. Give me one.

Chance. But having that drive, you know, and showing up for work and never making excuses like everyone can make an excuse why they can't get something done. I, you know, I think it's human nature, but just showing up and doing the thing is the quality that I look for in a person, um, to get a job done and really any job.

I think we.

Share a lot of that work ethic alone. That's where a lot of the commonality is. We also did a Myers-Briggs test. I don't know if you guys are familiar, but we were almost the exact same on the Myers-Briggs. Really?

What was the what was the do you remember the type? We were.

INTj.

Okay, nice, I don't remember. Good. Good memory.

But, you know, Bradley has like, he does have a different you know, when he talks with people, I always give him a hard time because I'm like, Bradley, you're way too nice and happy. Like, sometimes you gotta to be a little more assertive, but it's it's not a bad quality. It's a good quality. You know, like we both have strengths and weaknesses that we kind of utilize and help each other.

If you strip away some of the necessary personality, but like the that that element of character and you say like in terms of behaviors, like every single week, these things you guys are you guys do the same thing. What would that look like? What are the similarities on a week to week basis?

Yeah, yeah, I think just sticking to the process. We know how to take good care of a sales opportunity. So in terms of sticking to that process, so sticking to the process and and doing it in a timely manner is something that's very common between us within our weeks. Um, specific like specific specifics.

Um, we're doing the discovery calls, we're doing the consultations, the networking stuff. Um, my role is a little bit different because Alan's doing the high level stuff. So some differences are I'm doing the, the some of the networking things more consistently. He's looking at the higher, bigger picture things, looking at tools, stuff like that.

So in terms of sales process, we're doing the same thing. But the higher level stuff. Alan's taking some different responsibilities. But Ray, from the process standpoint of you guys discovery call follow up. You know all that that's that's nearly identical. What would you say, Alan?

And I would say, you know, part of helping that process is I always strive to make things as easy as possible for Bradley. So he has all the tools he needs to get the job done right. And if I can equip them with the tools and the success and and the things he needs and buy things, you know, the process, the tools, you know, the note takers, the tablets, whatever it is to make sure that he can focus on on getting a deal.

Then he doesn't have to worry about any other stuff and making his girl do his thing and find success.

You mentioned Bradley, the the networking and I guess for for Elon to maybe in the first few years of building up pipeline. But how do you how much of your time Bradley today is hunting networking like business development versus managing the existing sales process?

I would say it's at least two hours a week with just raw networking, and that's usually, um, the Denver Chamber. I'm going to. Local administrator. Legal administrator, uh, association events 2 to 4 hours a week is strictly networking. And this is this is aggressive networking. This is getting up at the networking thing and introducing myself.

You know that I'm new. So this is intentional networking. Not just there to have a drink and go home. If I'm going to be there, it's going to be worth my time. So I'm really driving the relationship building piece of that networking, not just going through the motions, which is easy to do.

How do you network without it feeling transaction? How do you like, how do you build up the network and turn it into turn it into revenue without it being like purely transactional? Since you're going back to the same places, I imagine. Anyway, on on a regular basis.

It's just being a real person and, um, enjoying the company. You've got to enjoy these groups, you've got to enjoy the people. So to keep it not so transactional, just keep it natural. I know that's very vague, but, um, you know, adding them on LinkedIn, staying connected, just sending them a message. Hey, nice chatting with you today.

LinkedIn will give you a message to send. You. Just push the button. They don't. They make it very easy. So you got to take it one step further to show people you care. Send out a message. Send that invite. And the next time they have an opportunity, they may just think of you and then check in. Every now and then.

I have some vendors, some competitors actually, that we send these smaller accounts to. And I try to check in once a month. How are you guys doing? What's new? Um, let's go get a drink. You know, so just being real and taking it one step further than I think helps.

How do you systematize that? I mean, or do you like, is that like, what's your tool stack? Is everything in a managed from a CRM? Is it, you know, like the the networking and the like? What's the how do you systematize that, if at all?

Having a structured follow up process is is pretty key. Every new network or any new individual I meet, I'll add them on LinkedIn. And if it's worth having a follow up conversation for any referral business, we'll do that. And then Alan's got a big list of referral partners in terms of systematizing it.

I think it would do a pretty good job of tracking things. But, you know, I think I think we could do more, actually. Um, Alan's pretty good with that process, with the marketing side of things, holding those meetings, holding those events, building a landing page, follow up structure. Um, so there's there's some there's something there for sure.

So we've used the CRM, we have our like ticketing system, which is our PSA for like any meeting that's an existing customer communication. Some of the simplest tools are some of the best ones. I think one of the best ones that we use is calendly just having, uh, you know, someone sets a meeting with you like those little follow up emails, those reminders, those text messages, like, that thing does it all for you.

You don't have to set it up or manage it and it, you know, it just does it all in the background. But, you know, especially with AI, you can build your own processes. Now it's, uh, Stefan, something that's becoming easier.

I want to ask about AI here and say, but I before I ask one, one other question on this, the the comparison, because it's like a science experiment, the fact that you guys have done something repeated differently. And so it's it's fascinating. And Alan, maybe this is for you, but Bradley, I'd be curious your take to what needs to be in place in order for an MSP to be able to have somebody replace themself, like from a what other things besides a documented process like are there, are there things from the delivery side or elsewhere?

Why do so many people struggle with this? Why? What needs to be in place for this transition in a sales engine that you guys have built to be built in the first place?

Those struggle that a lot of people have is they have their, um, you know, business owners, usually the person that starts selling, um, until they, they have the affordability to pay somebody or that not the time. Right. So they have their own idea in their head, which is the right way. And most of those owners come from a technical background, and the expectation is for the sales person to, like, get in the weeds, talk about those technical things.

And I don't think they have really a true sales process. It's more of like an adopted IT ticket handling like troubleshooting process that has kind of worked to get them there. That way, a business owner is going to be able to speak to their business much more than if you're hiring somebody. And they've been working there for a month, right.

And they're just still learning everything. Um, I, I'm a firm believer that it takes, you know, 6 to 12 months for a sales person to, like, really get in their groove, get comfortable, like, understand the company, understand what they're selling. Um, and to, to, you know, have that confidence to go out and truly sell your product or your service with confidence, like like an owner would do.

They just need that time. And you need to be there to give them the tools to do it. Help them with the process, but also be opening to improving that process. And if you don't have a sales process that is successful and that you're struggling with repeating, you know, reach out to the pro's, reach out to the res out there, get those guys, you know, get something that has been proven and be implemented in a bunch of different places and imitate before you innovate.

Just to piggyback off that, having the process that you can you can follow, having a workflow, you know, obviously to start and then something that I was thinking was having a number in your head and aggressively chasing those numbers. Having a crystal clear picture of where you should be at each month.

And that will give you kind of a, a barometer to see if you're, you know. Am I behind? Am I? Am I ahead of things? But having a number to to push for each month is very, very important. So the process having a number you want to hit and then being able to assess your process and readjust to hit those numbers is is very important.

Where can we improve on these things. Is this working? Is this not working? And having the um, not changing things rapidly but having um, being willing to change, right? Being willing to try new things I think is important.

That's a good point too, is like having realistic, attainable goals for your salesperson. I think any salesperson knows it's kind of like a, you know, a mean, like if you're really successful, then your your next your goal is going to be even higher and higher. And if you keep doing that, it's always going to get higher.

And maybe I'll let the cat out of the bag here for Bradley. But we have like our our realistic goal right. Like what can we hit. What can we what are we trending towards year over year? Like what do we feel confident and I know we're going to hit. And that's like our our company goal. But then I go to Bradley and I say, hey here's our here's our goal.

And I tell them like it's really like a stretch goal because I want him to have I don't want him to feel like, oh, the job's done. And like, you know, and I know you're not like that, but I think a lot of people do have that mindset. If they do hit their goal, they're, uh, kind of like, all right, I'm gonna take the last quarter off of the year.

I'm going to Mexico.

Hey, hey, hey, for the rest of my life, it's gonna stay here. You know, at the. I think the realistic goals. It's been an ongoing debate in sales as long as I've. I've been in it for for 20 plus years. And it's winners like to win. Like I like I like to feel like I'm winning. And so the the challenge with unrealistic goals is, you know, the, the, the issue I've always had with shoot for the moon you'll hit the star mindset is when you do that, when you set unrealistic goals, sure, you push people really fast if you miss, but they still hit the.

You know, sometimes the number that you're looking for. But from a sales person standpoint, there's also the psychological need to want to win. And you don't want somebody always feeling like, dude, like another goal. I know I can't hit another goal I can't hit. And so balancing that where you need to stretch and you need to have, you know, hey, these these are the aggressive goals.

Like this is where I believe we're capable of. And this is what we can do. And allowing people to to still feel like they're they're achieving. Otherwise. You at least from my experience you burn out if I, if I keep setting super aggressive goals or things that I know are never going to be hit and somebody is constantly missing them, you know, it's like you can turn a winner into feeling like a loser really quickly.

And I've seen that happen so that, you know, I think that's I agree, like the realistic goals. That is such a huge deal on AI. You'd mentioned this and and this is something I definitely want to hit on because from a few different angles, like specifically with MSPs right now, AI is on the the on the service side, right?

Like bolting it on as a service. Offering it as a service, using it for lead magnets. Then there's AI internally. Like how we're how we're leveraging it within our own operations. And then from a sales standpoint, how we're using it at the individual level, like we're where we're finding it to be useful and where we're finding it to just be, you know, a bunch of a bunch of noise.

Um, and if I, if I were to hit on that first, from the company standpoint, how important has AI been for you, you guys, in terms of new conversations that you're having, the expectations of people, it being part of a service or part of your part of your marketing or your messaging outward facing. Is it a is it a big part of that right now?

It's huge. I mean, uh, we we were talking about this the other day is especially within the last month, like virtually every single consultation discovery call we go on is.

Uh.

The person who person mentions AI. Right. And what are you guys doing for AI? The inherent expectation if you're in IT providers like AI's technology, you do technology. You're going to handle this, right? Um, and yeah, so it's it's a huge thing, but we don't have a silver bullet to, to give an answer and how to capture that.

But it's something you should be aware of, because if you don't, you're going to get less than the dust. That's just the fact. I mean, that's for all industries. Have all businesses like people should be adopting and learning. And I don't just say that because it's a trend. It's just, you know, the proof is in the pudding.

Everyone's gonna become more efficient on an individual basis. We recently like to get everyone inspired and start creating and like, make their own jobs easier, right? And kind of like internally adopt it. We came up with like kind of like a little every two weeks we have like a little meeting where people kind of show their little AI creations.

And it's really cool because, you know, obviously we work with people that are way more technical than us and there. You know, I'm out here making a recording. Transcript. Like breaking it down into, like, automated emails and things like that. But these guys are building full on dashboards and full on software products in, like, hours, you know.

So it's it's really the, the goal and the job is to get people to be inspired and how they can apply it to their own jobs or like, find their own things. I want you to automate as many things as you can so you have more time to focus on selling and not doing that boring stuff, right? Like have the computer send those emails, you know, obviously look at them.

But let's work to become more efficient and spend your time doing the things that you want to do.

What have been the best, the best uses of AI as a as a sales person for you? And have there been any that you kind of went down a rabbit hole and were like, ah, that's just going to be that's going to be noise, like, where is it? Where is it served? Where has it been useful for you? And then where has it, has it not been?

You know, gone are the days of writing everything down. Um, it's so good at capturing all the details that you couldn't possibly write down. There's no way on earth you could. You could retain all this stuff. So one, it's impressive when you send an email back and it's pretty comprehensive. We even have customers says, wow.

Bradlee's so good. He's listening. Right. That's been the biggest one for the sales process. Just being able to capture every little detail in delivering that to the service delivery team. His has been insane from that standpoint. I think it's been the biggest help for us. Um, but I'm just excited to see what comes next.

Like, what is the future hold?

Yeah, I mean, I'll agree. Like the best bang for our buck by far is like an AI note taker. Now I can actually spend my time talking with somebody and having a conversation and actually listening instead of like, trying to keep up writing and like, you know, half asking my notes and and then I go back and I can barely read half of them.

You're just able to focus on actually having a conversation and not have to worry about writing down notes and making sure your notes are accurate to pass along to other team members. It's the best thing that you can do to actually communicate what's here.

There's a lot of discussion. You know, we work with a lot of stress and stuff too, and there's a lot of discussion on AI lead outbound, you know, or you know, that, you know, actually using it to go, you know, with your cold emails or even cold calls. And to some extent, is that something that you think is in the near future?

Or do you think when it comes to that, like the quality of human conversation is going to is going to rule the day in the long run?

I know that we will always take the human first approach, because that's kind of our unique go to market, like, you know, as a real people and, um, here local, I think there will always be a spot to have that real human touch because AI won't replace a and you know, people are already getting AI fatigue where, you know, everything's so automated.

And I think people can kind of sense that it's AI written and it actually does the desire, that kind of communication. So kind of be like, maybe it'll be boutique I think. But majority, you know, the will be uh, more than average will be AI driven. But I think there will be a really strong market for people that could say, uh, organic rakugo, very important thing.

The AI fatigue, I think people are, are so just bugged out by AI. It's literally everywhere you look. So when you the phone rings and you've got an AI agent on the phone, it's like, great. What? You know, here we go again. My dad had a full on conversation with an AI agent and had no clue to it was a landscaping scheduling AI, and he had no idea.

And it was hilarious. He's 75 and it was really good. It did a really, really good job. Right? That the AI did fantastic. So that's it's really interesting to me. But I think Alan's right will always take that human first approach. I think that resonates with our customers. AI is great, right? But I'm always double checking it.

I'm always fact checking it. I don't trust it enough to make a call. Right over, over. Lou, our SDR, I think it's coming and it is interesting, but we're always going to take the human approach. I think you can reach the same efficiency by having your users adopt and use it.

Instead.

Of just putting the full job on the AI to do that job. I think it's a like a hybrid is like the way to go. And, you know, we're obviously going to be automating some things. And, you know, emails are one of those things like, I don't need my stars to waste time sending emails. I do give them the ability to customize if there's like a specific use case.

I think enabling people to use it as a tool is kind of the way to go, but definitely utilize it. Yeah.

It sounds like, you know, Bradley, the argument with like, your dad, like that's most AI people's argument. Like, hey, at some point it's going to be so good. No one's going to know that it's not human. I mean, we're already seeing it, you know, from a from a backlash standpoint, like the messaging, the DMs, the comments on LinkedIn, the emails, the, the.

And I think the more and more it gets flooded, the more there is going to be some some resistance and people starting to listen like we have real life stars now getting asked, is this AI? You know, you're like, you're like, no, I'm human. Excellent. You know, and it's so it's but they're asking because they want to know and and at some point, you know, they're going to have to disclose.

And I, I agree I think the, the human element is, is where it is. And we're, you know, if you, you can amplify the sales, it's probably you know, AI probably sucks for the bottom half of sales people. Like if you if you've not been staying on top of the trade and taking it seriously, but for for you guys, for us, for, you know, for the people that are out there like the top half of sellers, it amplifies us like it gives us.

You know, we can deliver a better service. We can deliver a better human connection because we're spending less of our time doing stuff from an administrative standpoint, tracking standpoint. Like, I can get research on a prospect like that now. Excellent. Well, that allows me to digest it and use it as opposed to spending all my time getting it.

But still, the the human amplified version is is where I see it. I see it going, um, you know, and to your point, E Creek is is kind of made of being real, the part of its unique stamp, you know, and, you know, like the large scale but local feel. Um, and that was one of my, my other questions. Are you seeing the conversations with your prospects change around AI because they're using it like I'm hey, I'm, I'm ChatGPT seeing how much should I be paying for IT services?

So when you show up, you have a potentially more sophisticated educated buyer. Has that come up explicitly? Are you seeing a trend with that or how are you responding to that?

Yeah, it's been interesting because we've been, you know, on the marketing side, trying to understand, you know, how to get recommended by AI. And I forget the term. It's like SEO for AI.

Geo.

Geo.

Yeah. Geo.

Uh, we're we're organically pretty strong in that. And I have had the conversations with people, you know, as ChatGPT find it companies in Denver and we pop up. But I always welcome that that question because the every time that someone's asked, like, what should I be paying for for it? You know, I think it actually gives like a higher cost than what we are.

So I'm like, yeah, go, go look it up. And you know, and people come back and they're like, oh yeah, we'll go with you guys. We have reasonable, you know, pricing that I think is fair. And we're certainly not the cheapest and certainly not the most expensive. But those kind of questions definitely benefit us because we have I like to say it's like, uh, above average on the cost.

I think being able to speak to supporting AI initiatives helps build the confidence. They usually don't have specifics. It's like, do you guys work with AI? And it's like, yes, we work with AI. It's like, well, are you guys talking about policies? Do you want to make an application? So it's coming up. It's it's like a buzzword.

People want to mention it, but they don't know what it can do and how it can do that for you.

Well, you guys will be glad to know I just did this just for fun because I'm not in Denver. And so like while you're talking, Elon and I, I said, you know, the actual question, who are the best local IT providers in Denver, Colorado? Ray for Denver I would shortlist these first. First was E Creek SMEs that won a truly local Denver MSP Denver Denver based focused on managed its cybersecurity compliance.

And then it gives a list of others. And then I get like summarizes. The list at the bottom is my practical short list would be best local first option E Creek. It probably speaks to something about the facts. I would say Elon and I'm speculating, but if if we're saying, hey, you're just getting into the Geo game, but you're already there, and that's probably because you already have a strong presence in Denver, on the web, in networking at chambers and elsewhere, which is where this is pulling the information.

So it's not like you didn't have to game your way into the system. You were already there when it went to find information. Is the way I'm I'm reading it.

Screenshot that for me and send it to me. That'd be great. Um, but yeah, that's you know, that's part of, um, being involved in the community. Like, we work we work with a lot of nonprofits. And, um, you know, if they have a cause that we want to be a part of, like being in there, and then they're posting the social media or the news picks it up and it's like, oh, organic.

So, you know, those are things, you know, kind of going back to the the AI can't just generate for you, right? Is being there showing up and really helping where people are going to naturally talk about you? And it's funny because I did my own two and I said, what is the average cost for her seat for for an MSP?

And it said 100 to $300, which we fit right in that range. So go ahead prospect.

Use ChatGPT to research it. And hell you may end up increasing your prices as a result of it. You know, like, hey, this, this, this, this is coming, this, this is coming in low. The unique piece you mentioned, you know, some of our unique strengths and unique selling points, kind of like the term that we use in on the marketing side of things, one of the biggest challenges sellers have with it, or that I hear is, hey, we all look and feel the same.

You know, like at the end of the day, it's it's a similar tool stack and you know, this and that. How do you as a seller and then what do you need from the company to, to differentiate. Like how? What? Are there certain things the company should or needs to be doing in order to arm you properly? And then you as the seller, how do you differentiate as you as you go through?

I mean, that's the easiest question that to ask because your your sales process is broken. If that's the problem you're facing because you're selling on features, then the value that you bring to that customer, you didn't listen to their pain points. You didn't speak to how you're going to fix their pain points or their issues.

You didn't you didn't establish yourself as a trusted partner. You didn't establish yourself as the the professional voice. I would say we do not encounter that very often if we're doing what we're supposed to be doing.

What is it that you're supposed to be doing, though? Like what makes it easy for you, or why is it harder for other people? Would you say.

Because they're not listening, they're too busy going off their checklists, rattling off all the same things that everyone else is saying they're telling the customer the things that they can do. They're not listening to them and saying how they're going to fix their problems. When a prospect hears that, they are hearing that it's a transactional relationship and that anybody can do that, and it's it's the commoditized service, right?

So how you do how you don't fall into that trap because you listen to them. You have a real conversation. You ask them conversational questions and you don't go off of that checklist, but you still get the same answers that you would need to put together a woman proposal. Easier said than done, Mr. Cool. Getting all that information and keeping it even though it's not easy.

It's not easy for those cops. Sometimes I will try to be missed. I'll be like soul. Where? How's the business? And I'll forget to ask the most basic question. Because I'm too busy trying to make it smooth. If you miss something. There's nothing wrong with, um, reaching back out. Like, as long as you have a reason to have a discussion and a good reason to get that information.

And it's not, you know, it's better to say, hey, uh, Mr. or Mrs. Prospect, can we set up another 15 minute call? I have some other things I want to go over with you so I can just put this together so it's, um, cohesive for you. Following up like that is way better than, like, hey, can I set up a meeting with you to tell you about this?

You know, cool new, uh, EDR that we got or this AI system, you know, like, were you selling on the on the features and not the value. So it's like, don't ever feel like you can't reach back out to somebody to get information to have it. The a successful partnership.

What if you feel like you can't. It probably shows how transactional it was. Right. Like if you walk out and you've had a really like legitimately good conversation with somebody, you got some information, you walk out and you realize, oh shit, I forgot this. And you and you call them back up that afternoon.

Like, it's not like, hey, you know what a really good call I appreciate. I totally forgot this one thing. Can I have five minutes real quick to run through this? And by the way, you're probably getting a temperature check on the deal. You know, like, if they if they avoid you like the plague after you've left for that five minute conversation, like the odds on that deal are not looking good.

You know, so it's like a, it's a yeah, it's a good, good temperature check. Um, well I've got one, one more real main question and it's, it's, it's I actually don't love it, but I know if I'm, if I'm a seller, I've got to ask top sellers this question and, but I know there's a lot of context to it. And it's what's the most common objection that you get and how do you handle it?

This is very real for me right now because I'm struggling a little bit on the cost side of things. Um, more so than ever. Um, I'm being told that our costs are too high.

Um, and how we

maneuver around that Is doing better at displaying the value, right? Yes, our services will cost more. However, there's going to be less downtime, less bottlenecks. So delivering the value is is I think the the easiest way around the cost objective. Um, and explaining how those costs benefit them in the long run I think will help you win the deal when your prices are higher.

Going along with that. I mean, obviously cost is like probably the most common objection. We embrace that. Like we don't really skirt around the cost. Like we have that discussion in the discovery call, um, when we're presenting proposals. It's on the first slide. So like I know people are just going to like try to flip to the back or be distracted by what things cost.

Like we're very transparent on what things cost. And that's because I can't discount it because our service costs what it costs. Right. Like and for us to feed our staff and to have a reasonable, um, standard of living. Like we have to pay people, right? Um, the service that we built is, has been crafted around this, and it's very honed in on for the the level that we deliver.

You know, it's a professional service, right. So if you really can't afford it, then, you know, there are other options out there if you can't afford it. And then you can grow into this type of service. Um, and we do have minimums, like we don't have the capacity to take a ton of small businesses, but we almost use it as like a qualifier.

Like, if you're that price conscious and you and you really are fighting us on the value, then you're probably not going to be a great long term customer for us, because how are we going to approach you when, um, the the standard of support and service that we're supposed to provide you changes. Right. And there's a new standard, or the government comes out with a new regulation where we have to pay more money to get a specialized tool to support you and like that.

That's just how business works as things change and you have to adapt. And if you don't have that same appreciation for technology and the value we can bring, then it's a way for me to weed out somebody who could potentially be a bad customer. And we try to have those conversations before. They should have a general idea of the cost before they get the proposal in hand.

We ballpark it to make sure it's we're in the same stadium here, you know, so the cost shouldn't be a surprise at all. We get that conversation over with at the beginning of the sales process, but now more than ever, people are being so price conscious. I've just seen it trending lately.

The advantage I have and to to an extent disadvantage is that I see sellers from all different areas. And so I do like it. Yes, there's certain there's some sellers that are there saying, hey, more budget conscious. Fewer decisions, more stalled. Deals like that are ending in. In. No decision. Like just or sitting in.

No decision. On the other hand, there is there is a a circle of people that are that are not experiencing it today. And so it's always to me, it's always like identifying what are the patterns or what's shifting that's leading this particular group to not experience that and this particular group to experience it.

One of the things I've seen work really well for the the a premium service provider like MSP that knows in the space, we're not we're not the cheapest and we're never going to be the cheapest. But it's on purpose is through storytelling before it ever comes out. And so like as an example, I heard one recently where the owner was accompanying a salesperson and and the owner was like a phenomenal storyteller anyway.

But he got into this story and he was like, well, listen, you know, x number of years ago, I didn't want to I didn't want to come to work anymore. It was my own business. And I realized, you know, the team that we had here and what we were doing, we were doing okay, but I wasn't I didn't love it. And I said, you know what?

We're going to rebuild the culture. We're going to get the best people on the planet. We're going to invest in keeping those people long term, and we're going to end. So we went through this long story about how they reinvested in the team and the culture and the impact that it's had and, you know, the customer events that they've had and this and that.

And he never once said, by the way, you know, you're going to pay for this. But it was almost inferred, you know, like as you hear the story, I'm going to assume if you're selling me, we have the top people. And, you know, we have this culture. And he and some of it's measurable, like attrition and these other things that you go, wow, these aren't the these aren't the penny pinchers that are going to give me the, the Walmart special.

Like, these are the people that have premium talent, higher level techs. And then you guys represent that. And the reason I think it's a good a good way for you guys to do it is because you have a good story in Denver, you have solid positioning. You represent yourself at a at a high level. So if I heard that from you, I'd go, yeah, that makes sense.

Like these. These guys are are pros. I can imagine the rest of the team is so weaving it in through storytelling, through other areas, and I, I, I believe in watching it. What's happening is as a prospect, I'm seeing where the extra money is going. Right? Like, it's like, I know I might pay a little bit more, but if I have two providers sitting in front of me, E Creek came in and talked to me about their team and their culture.

And, you know, the, the, the customer events that they do and other things. I okay, I kind of see where the extra four bucks of seed is going, you know, or something along those lines. So maybe something you think about.

So probably mentions, you know, hey, we're struggling with the price objection. And so what I've done and what I'm working on is you know exactly that. Like we've been working on our company culture, getting accolades like we won. Uh, we were in the top three for Denver best Places to Work. Um, and we have a like Denver Business Journal like small business of the year.

All these accolades and and credentials that we can put and that's that's in our proposal. Right. And when I bring that up to the prospect, what I'm saying is, yeah, these things are all cool and great. And I'm showing up when I'm trying to get to you. And for you to understand is that if we treat our staff well and they're happy to show up to work, they're just going to give you better service.

I mean, a happy employee is just going to give you better service, hands down, than somebody who's not making money and somebody who's miserable and not having a fun place to work at. Um, and do you want to deal with that when you submit a ticket that's, you know, who do you want to do it? The happy person that's ecstatic to help you, or the person who's barely making enough money and is worried about being able to afford, you know, meals and and you know, I don't get that granular, but they get the concept and, you know, it's it's building our brand and building the value.

Uh, and you could look at apple apples like the masters of this, where they can sell the. They could sell you a, they literally sell a stand that is machine stainless steel for a monitor to like $1,500. Is it any better than the $15 one you can get on Amazon? No, but it's like Apple and they have it look all sleek on their marketing, but it's literally a piece of metal.

Right. So and do you think people are like the people that are buying that they don't care what the price is because they want that brand, they want that image and they want that like it's the same thing for us. We are never going to be the cheapest. There's always going to be a cheap provider out there, and there will always be people that want to buy the cheap.

And the cost is the main driver and we try to actively work not to, to, um, have those people enter the sales process. You know, Alan, sometimes you tell me that like, you did your best, but you did a great job, great proposal. You crushed that. But he just went with a lower cost. And sometimes there's nothing you can do about that other than to try to improve on the next time and keep your head up.

Yeah, exactly. Losses are part of the game. You play poker if you if you lose a hand, it's not because you played it the wrong way. Right. Like. And in fact, you can read it the wrong way. If I win a hand playing a really stupid way. And then I repeat that and it doesn't work. Whereas, yeah, like if you if you run the process and you do what you're supposed to do and you didn't win that deal, I think looking back at the execution and the process is usually more valuable than looking at the outcome so that you, you're not going to win them all.

Like that's part of the unfortunately part of the game. Hey, before we go, what's one thing that the other does better than the other?

Bradley is always extremely positive and always has that positive attitude. I know sometimes I could come in as a as a grumpy. Now, maybe we're not hitting our goal for the month, but I always appreciate his positivity. And that's really what he's a master of. Thank you. Alan is Alan does very well at driving the team.

You know, driving the tech team, driving the sales, making sure we're moving forward. Um, so that's something I really respect. Um, alarm for. And just the casual, the easygoing tone of the consultations and the discovery calls is just kind of effortless. So I'm always impressed with that.

It's awesome. Well, I appreciate you guys and the time because I know your time is valuable. You're selling your you know, you're you're making money. So doing this is I appreciate it. And it's very rare to get to great sellers like proven like sales champion of the year finalist two times Bradley. I mean like you guys have proven it and and that's it's rare to see that level of result and it be repeated with different people.

So getting you guys both in the same room was just awesome. So I appreciate it man. And look forward to maybe doing this again.

Thanks for.

Having me. All right. Appreciate it.