Leigh Anne McKingsley, senior director at The Arc's National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, talks with Janet Stewart, Impact's managing editor, about intersectional issues involving people with disabilities in the criminal justice system.

Editor's note: This conversation includes language describing an act of police violence that could be distressing for some readers.

- Welcome to Impact the

Conversation, a podcast

of the University of Minnesota's

Institute on community

integration that brings you strategies

and stories advancing

the inclusion of people

with disabilities.

Our guests are the authors of Impact,

our long running magazine

that bridges the research

to practice gap with professional

and personal reflections on

what matters most in

disability equity today.

I'm your host, Janet Stewart. It.

- Hi, I'm Lee Ann Mc Kingsley.

I work for the Arts National

Center on Criminal Justice

and Disability,

and the Center has been around

for 10 years now focused on

addressing the issues that

people with intellectual

and developmental disabilities

are facing when it comes

to their involvement in the

criminal justice system.

- I'm just really excited

for today's episode

because you have really spent

your entire career in the

disability justice field,

and it's just really exciting

to have you here today.

So just to kind of get

started, your article

for the Justice issue goes into

how the National Center got started,

but can you briefly talk about its history

and how it, how you came

to, to be part of it

- All?

Absolutely. And thank

you for that question

because I, I liked hearing histories of

how things got started

and the why behind it.

And I actually came to

the ARC when I was 24

because the a DA had

passed four years earlier

and the a DA of course was

looking at how do we make sure

that people with disabilities

have accommodations when it

comes to criminal justice

issues Under Title two

of the A DA, it

specifically looks at state

and local governments and are

they providing accommodations?

Well, the ARC was looking

to educate folks about

that very issue,

and so they received a

grant through the Department

of Justice to create materials

for law enforcement attorneys, people

with intellectual

developmental disabilities

about this topic.

And I applied for that

and was hired to do that work

and immediately realized

how little people knew

about this population

and about this intersection.

And I had learned of the

work of Bob Persky, who

some of your listeners may know

because of his history in the field

of writing books about the topic of people

who were executed facing Death row

who had intellectual

developmental disabilities.

And he was really my mentor at the very

beginning and throughout.

And so that set the

stage for really wanting

to explore this work,

provide advocacy, working

with our state and local chapters

and how we could do that effectively.

And then it was only 10

years ago that we were able

to get funding through

the Department of Justice

to create the National

Center on Criminal Justice

and Disability housed within the arc.

So that was really a

dream kind of come true

that finally we could get enough funding

and support to look at this issue very

specifically.

Typically, the funding

doesn't come that way.

There hasn't been a lot of

funding in this area, so we're

so grateful just for the

opportunity to focus in on this.

And so it's been a long,

kind of a long journey

going in that direction.

- I really wanted to ask you about that

because you know, how

maddening was it, you know,

as someone who's passionate

about the, about the law,

about disability advocacy, we

have these laws on the books

for a reason, you know,

and it, it just takes so long

to get practical initiatives going.

How frustrating has that been for you?

- Pretty frustrating,

but also since my work

or my initial education was in social work

and then working

to understand long range

goals, understanding

that even policy in itself

doesn't happen overnight.

I kind of had to take that in stride

and did a lot of different

things at the ARC over the years

before I started seeing fruit.

And, and really what kept

me going was the stories

as a person who survived quite a few,

few things myself in my own

life, when I would hear stories

of people whether

or not we had the funding,

it lights the fire in you

to keep on it no matter what.

And so that is really kind of

what sustained me throughout,

throughout this journey.

And the more that I've talked

to other people about this,

it's kind of like we create

our own, our own little world

of advocacy

and you see min new people

coming to, into the cause

and that's been really

the most exciting part.

- Was there one case

in particular early on

that really, really you

thought, wow, this is,

this is really powerful

work that we're doing

- That early on when I

first came to the arc,

that first year,

I worked on a death penalty

case here in Texas where I live.

And, and I remember there

was six different people

involved in this case where

someone had been murdered.

And out of all of those individuals,

everyone pointed the finger

to one person, the one person

that had intellectual disabilities.

And we brought in experts,

you know, we flew in experts

to explain to the jury

what the situation was and,

and I was just sure that they

would understand, you know,

knowing what I knew working at the arc.

And it did not make one difference.

In fact, because the crime was

so serious, I think it just

did not allow anyone to see

what had actually happened here

and how there was one fall guy

and everyone pointed the

finger to that person.

And you know, when you realize how often

that was happening throughout the country

and other states, then, you know,

but until you know, you don't know.

And I think that's been one

of the biggest aha moments.

Although Bob's early work

focused on death penalty,

you know, I knew that

this was so much bigger

and we had to have funding streams

and ways to support this

issue at every stage

of the criminal just justice process

that we couldn't just

look at one piece of this.

And that is really a big reason why,

why we needed a national

center to focus on it.

- That's terrific.

Now, last fall in your blog, I noticed

that you said the Pathways

program is taking a fresh look at

its practices with disability, kind of

with a disability justice lens.

What prompted this?

- Well, the, the need to

focus on the intersection

of disability and race or disability

and the L-G-B-T-Q community

that has been part

of the center for many years.

It was back in 2017

that we hosted a webinar

to raise awareness of the

systemic issues within systems

that are dramatically

impacting people of color

or those who identify as L-G-B-T-Q,

who also have disabilities.

And in that we were able

to look at the different intersections

that play into discrimination

and violence towards people

with IDD in the system.

And we wanted to look at

in any innovative programs

that were focusing on solutions.

So that was

before actually the George Floyd

killing had taken place at

the hands of law enforcement.

And then, so once that

came, we were thinking,

how do we ensure that

people with disabilities are

leading the conversation on these issues?

And then Covid happened

and it's been kind of a kind

of another different journey

to figure out how to make

sure that this is key

to everything that we're

doing here at the center.

So we're also looking at not

only bringing this key piece

into our Pathways to Justice

training, which we've had

for a number of years now,

but also how that can

be in other trainings

that we're a part of.

And that has been a little

challenging, I will say.

- Like what?

- Well, there's a training called crit,

which is Crisis Response

Intervention Training.

And that has been a wonderful

opportunity working with

the Bureau of Justice Assistance funding

to take what's traditional CIT training,

which is crisis intervention

training, and take that

and really ensure

that we have more information

on IDD throughout typical

police training will include

more focus on mental health

or sometimes they may include autism,

but they're not looking

more comprehensively at IDD.

And so this was an opportunity to do that.

However, we weren't really able

to bring in thinking about

other identities of people

with IDD into that conversation.

So now we have this opportunity

through the Cops office,

which is also a part of

the Department of Justice

to do an online training

called Just Policing.

And so we're taking disinformation

around intersectionality

as well as justice involved youth

because there are a lot of

issues around juvenile justice

and disability and bringing

that into both our

pathways training as well

as the just policing, so that

that just policing will be happening over

the next two years.

- And so who typically

the training is for whom

- Law enforcement?

That is the focus of the training.

Now the, that is for the Just Policing

because that will actually

live on the COPS Office portal.

But for the Pathways training,

it is more comprehensive than that.

The Pathways includes

not only law enforcement,

but also legal professionals.

So it could be attorneys,

both sides, both, you know,

prosecution as well as defense,

and then also victim advocates.

So we're wanting to bring

in all the key players

that could potentially interact

with either a suspect defendant victim,

also someone who's incarcerated so

that we're addressing this

holistically, not just saying,

if we just come in and do a

training, we can check that box

that you got that training.

We know for a fact

that training alone is

never going to work.

There has to be a more

comprehensive kind of world around

that training that we're building.

And that includes creating

a disability response team.

And that team is made up of a

local law enforcement officer,

a victim advocate, an attorney,

a person with a disability,

a disability advocate at minimum.

Typically these teams are 15 to 20 people

and it could, it could include probation

and parole, someone from the

correction corrections as well.

So it can be as broad as

the community wants it,

but it's really a way to say, look,

we're gonna get in front of this issue.

We choose to be proactive.

We're not waiting for

that crisis to happen.

We're going to have a plan

before these crises happen.

And you know, when we

do this police training,

we'll often hear from law

enforcement, okay, we hear you.

We agree that,

that we need training on this issue.

We agree that we could

respond differently, but,

but where do people go?

What if they do need help

right here in this moment?

Who do we call for that?

And the reality has been there is a lack

of services in our communities

and you can't sugarcoat that one.

I mean, if we don't have places for people

to get support, then where do they go?

See, they end up going

cycling back into the

criminal justice system.

- So how are you gonna get

involved then in helping to,

to build all of that?

That sounds like a, a pretty big job in a

lot of communities.

- And that is the point of

the disability response team.

And so in some of the states,

we've already seen folks pass

legislation, for example,

to try to really raise

awareness around key issues

that are impacting their community.

We have a, a team in Virginia

where they got real involved in needing

to pass legislation around

sex ed so that people

with disabilities could

have access to that

and know what is safe, what is not safe.

We get many, many calls of people

with IDD ending up on the sex offender

registry, for example.

And so it's key issues like that,

that different communities

are gonna wanna focus on.

And that team of people can

work together when you're alone

trying to address this, it's way too hard,

it's way too too overwhelming, honestly.

And no community can do that.

But when you start building

those relationships

with people in your own community and,

and you start seeing, you know,

that officer did care about

that piece, you know,

that officer has a child

with disabilities.

And that judge really

understood that piece of it.

And then it starts its own synergy

because there are people that

really do wanna change things,

but they just don't know how

and they're not connected. Now,

- The ARC has also been working

with individual families

to promote awareness about people

with IDD in the justice system.

I know you've been working with a, a few,

well, quite a few families.

Can you, can you tell a couple

of those stories of, of some

of the work you've done with individuals?

- Sure. And, and I believe

this is the most important part

that, of the work that this center does.

So I appreciate the question.

There's one family in

particular that reached out

to us a few years ago

regarding their son who died

actually while they were with him

at the hands of law enforcement.

And I remember working on their case

and just how emotional it was

and how difficult it was to see

this family go through this.

And it was just recently

before our last national

convention in New Orleans back in

November that they reached back out to me

because their lawsuit had been settled

and they were now able to speak about it.

And so they asked if I

would meet with them,

and I of course said yes.

And I was emotionally

preparing myself for this time

to meet with them in person.

'cause I knew it was

gonna be really difficult.

But they, they never dreamed

that they would lose

their 16-year-old son.

And this is their only

son, Eric, who has autism,

the tragic way that they

did just four years ago.

And they were doing a typical act activity

where they were out together,

he was playing laser tag at

a place in their community.

And then when they were

going to leave their son,

Eric just kind of started

having, you know, behaviors

where he was not comfortable,

he was feeling unsure

of, of where he was.

And he just started showing

these behaviors that kind

of concerned them.

So, so police were called to the scene

and ended up though

that he was basically put in a choke hold.

And during this time, the whole

time the parents are there,

you know, seeing this happen, ended up

that he actually died right there.

And what was really

hard for this family is

that it wasn't maybe

three, two to three months

before this, that they had a situation

where they called police and it was great

and the officer did great

and there was no problem.

The officer knew how to deescalate

and there was no, no problem at all.

So you can imagine now they're

here, you know, fast forward

and they're in this situation thinking

that the same thing would happen.

And so what that really alerts us to

and what we've been

talking about together is

that there just isn't that

consistency and response.

And that's why the training is important,

but that's not the only

thing that's important.

We have to think about

much more than that.

But training is one of those things

that can help officers understand

what exactly can go wrong

and just how wrong it can go.

And I'm talking about

in minutes, you know,

this happened very quickly

and so we're doing everything

we can to support this family.

'cause now they have their own

healing, they are traumatized

by, and they don't want

Eric to ever be forgotten.

And we're looking for ways to make sure

that his story is told, that, you know,

that this family really

wants folks to understand

that his life mattered

and that his life continues to matter.

- Now, after George Floyd,

a number of communities

around the country have started

thinking about alternative

policing methods,

it's a much more common

conversation today.

How, how are those efforts going?

Are are, is the, are

are different organizations

being brought into some

of those community conversations

and and how's that going?

- Yeah, we've seen that happening

with some chapters throughout the country.

And one of, I'm glad you raised that

because one of the things

that we had focused on

is the new 9 8 8 number.

So that number is there to direct,

make a different direction

rather than going to officers

that someone else is

responding to that crisis.

Not a law enforcement

response if it is not needed.

And that is one avenue that

we're trying to look to

throughout the country to

see where is IDDA part of

that conversation.

If it's not, why not?

Because mostly it's not been,

that number was more focused

on calls around suicide,

but it also talks about

crisis, crisis response.

And we know that this happens

for people with IDD as well.

So the reason I raised 9 88 is

because when we think

about different responses,

community-based responses versus policing,

peer-based responses, that's key.

I think peer-based is really important.

- What, what do you mean by that

and what, how does that turn up?

- So basically, you know,

someone who's experienced this

before, someone who

wants to provide support,

say through a crisis,

if someone's providing crisis

response, how are peers,

people who have experienced

this, maybe people

with lived experience,

you would hear that term,

or people with disabilities

are a part of that process

and able to, to really

not just hear this from the

professional side of you,

but they're hearing it from a

person who's lived through it

and can really identify with

someone that's just like them.

And we've seen this happening, you know,

more in the mental health field, samhsa,

the Substance abuse Mental

Health Services administration

has been supporting peer led

activities for many years,

peer led training, et cetera.

But we're really wanting

to open that up more

to the IDD field

and see how we can create

funding to pay people

for their experience, their expertise,

and their knowledge around this.

So you can imagine what

that could look like

and how that could really

change the conversation hearing

from people with disabilities in all

of these different areas.

- So is that already happening

or is that something you're working on?

- We're working on. Okay. I

like to, I like to plant seeds.

It may not exactly be happening.

I mean it's happening in some ways outside

of the criminal justice system.

Of course, for example,

if someone is a victim

of a crime and they are needing supports

or services, you could have

someone like a navigator

come alongside.

So we see some of that happening,

but not enough, not to the

extent that it could be.

And again, that's another

way of using funding,

a kind of pulling it away from

looking at a criminal justice

law enforcement response only

and saying, well, if we

put some money over here

to really support peers

to make these connections,

to provide support, that could

really be a game changer.

We don't know until we try

and we start putting some

evaluation and research behind it

and really, really know

what strategies work best.

- Oh, that sounds like a great idea.

Any other updates to

N-C-C-J-D or Pathways?

Anything we haven't talked about

that you wanted to touch on?

- Well, I, I think I

mentioned a little bit,

but we did recently celebrate

a 10 year anniversary at the

Arks National Convention in

New Orleans back in November,

which was so exciting.

And we will continue to do that

throughout this coming year,

just really trying to raise

awareness of these issues

to the level that we can

gain the amount of funding

and support needed to continue

to do the work of the center.

So I would really encourage

anyone who's listening

to contact us if they want to

support this work in any way,

whether it's sharing or story.

Also, we have a national information

and referral line, so we will help people

with disabilities calling

in attorneys, police, anyone

who wants to ask questions, get training,

we're here for that as well.

- And, and how we, how do I access that?

Is that a phone number? Is it a website?

- Yes, we do have a website.

If you go onto the arcs website, which is

the arc.org,

you can look up criminal

justice initiatives under there

and that will take you

straight to our, our homepage.

- Terrific. Oh, lean,

it's just been wonderful

to have this conversation with you.

I'm, it, it's really great to

kind of see the progress and,

and I know it can be frustratingly slow,

but it does, it does seem that

things are starting to boot

to become a little more accessible

to people, a little, a

little more within reach.

As you, as you sit here today

and you think about, you know, years

after George Floyd, the

funding that is starting

to trickle in for some of

these different initiatives.

Do you, do you feel like

we're on the cusp of some big,

some big changes

or are the numbers still

kind of stacked against us?

- Oh wow. What a question.

You know, that is hard to say

because you do see

different, like legislation,

possible legislation that could, you know,

tip the bull into our favor, 9, 8, 8.

Could that be a path

to really draw funding

to focus on this issue in

a very different way so

that we can build capacity in communities

and not just focus on

law enforcement response

- Within legislation?

What would, what would

you say would be the,

the critical piece that,

that would really make a

difference, do you think?

- Well, I mean, if we could get 9, 8, 8

to really support people with ID D two

and it'd be more comprehensive, I think

that would be a good start.

But also really fully funding

and supporting any kind of

crisis intervention programs.

How are we not addressing the deeper needs

and the root causes of people's

trauma of why there are,

where they are in life?

How does disability play into that?

How does race play into that?

What about where they live,

the socioeconomics of where they're at?

I mean, we, we tend to

wanna focus on one answer

and it's really much more

complicated than that.

If we could look at different

pieces of legislation

and all of the disability

community come together in looking

at that along with the law

enforcement, the different kind

of disability advocates

and victim advocates,

I think we would have a

better chance overall.

- I think you've really

just described disability,

disability justice as a whole,

and that's what our

issue has been all about.

- Reminds me of the term

inclusive justice, which is one

that we had brought out in

some of our international work

as we've looked at what

are other countries

doing in this space.

You know, some are much

farther ahead than us

or doing things much better

than us at least trying

to address, you know,

these issues. And how

- Are we different?

- Well, we are part of the Access

to Justice international hub,

and that has been going on for

about six to seven years now

and have traveled to the

UK to have meetings there.

The center's also been in Austria

and most recently last year, South Korea,

who they were looking at wanting

to create a national

center on criminal justice

and disability, like what

we have here in the us.

And so different places,

different places are really

on the continuum, right, of

being just talking about it

to really being more

advanced than where we are.

And examples of that would be in the UK

where they have what's

called intermediaries

that will actually be

part of the court system

who can go into the court system

and provide more communication support.

So they're not really there as advocates,

but more as anyone who needs

support with communication.

Obviously that helps in

the advocacy world, right?

Because now they're being

heard, seen someone standing up

for them to make sure that they're,

that they have the

communication needs met.

There's, you know, the question of

what is actually doable

here in, in our country.

But there's also things like in Israel

where there's been some really good effort

to train police officers

and that that has seemed to really help

and officers have been open

to learning about disability.

So di different things are going on

and I think it's important

that we build solidarity

around these, this issue internationally

because it can help us to

understand where we are

in the story.

It helps us to understand

where we are on the map when

it comes to, to these issues

and we can really learn from each other.

- Terrific. Oh, Leanne,

it's just been wonderful

to have this conversation with you.

Thank you so much. All

- Right, thank you Janet. I appreciate

- It.

So great. Bye-Bye bye.

Thanks for joining the conversation.

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