Shownotes
Leigh Anne McKingsley, senior director at The Arc's National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, talks with Janet Stewart, Impact's managing editor, about intersectional issues involving people with disabilities in the criminal justice system.
Editor's note: This conversation includes language describing an act of police violence that could be distressing for some readers.
Transcripts
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;48;24
Janet Stewart
Welcome to Impact the Conversation, a podcast of the University of Minnesota's Institute on Community Integration. It brings you strategies and stories advancing the inclusion of people with disabilities. Our guests are the authors of impact, our long running magazine that bridges the research to practice gap with professional and personal reflections on what matters most in disability equity today. I'm your host, Janet Stewart.
00;00;48;26 - 00;01;12;19
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Hi, I'm Leigh Anne McKingsley. I work for the Arts National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, and the center has been around for ten years now, focused on, addressing the issues that people with intellectual and developmental disabilities are facing when it comes to their involvement in the criminal justice system.
00;01;12;21 - 00;01;38;11
Janet Stewart
I'm just really excited for today's episode, because you have really spent your entire career in the disability justice field, and it's just really exciting to have you here today. So just to kind of get started, your article for the justice issue goes into how the National Center got started, but can you briefly talk about its history and how it how you came to, to be part of it all?
00;01;38;16 - 00;02;05;12
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Absolutely. And thank you for that question, because I liked hearing histories of how things got started and the why behind it. And, I actually came to the arc when I was 24, because the Ada had passed four years earlier. And the Ada, of course, is looking at how do we make sure that people with disabilities have accommodations when it comes to criminal justice issues?
00;02;05;14 - 00;02;31;13
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Under title two of the Ada, it specifically looks at state and local governments. And are they providing accommodations? While the Arc was looking to, educate folks about that very issue. And so they received a grant through the Department of Justice to, create materials for law enforcement attorneys for people with intellectual developmental disabilities about this topic.
00;02;31;16 - 00;03;03;05
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And I applied for that, and, was hired to do that work and immediately realized how little people knew about this population and about this intersection. And I had learned of, the work of Bob Persky, who, some of your listeners may know because of his history in the field of, writing books about the topic of people who were executed facing death row, who had, intellectual developmental disabilities.
00;03;03;07 - 00;03;29;24
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And he was really my mentor at the very beginning and throughout. And so that set the stage for, really wanting to explore this work, provide advocacy, working with our state and local chapters, and how we could do that effectively. And then, it was only ten years ago that we were able to get funding through the Department of Justice to create the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, housed within the Arc.
00;03;29;24 - 00;03;57;21
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So that was really a dream come true that finally we could get enough funding and support to look at this issue. Very, specifically. Typically the funding doesn't come that way. There hasn't been a lot of funding in this area. So, we're so grateful just for the opportunity to focus in on this. And, so it's been a long, kind of a long journey going in that direction.
00;03;57;24 - 00;04;19;28
Janet Stewart
I really wanted to ask you about that because, you know, how maddening was it? You know, as someone who's passionate about the about the law, about disability advocacy, we have these laws on the books for a reason, you know, and it it just takes so long to get practical initiatives going. How frustrating has that been for you?
00;04;20;00 - 00;04;48;13
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Pretty frustrating. But also, since my work, or my, initial education was in social work, and then working to understand, long range goals, understanding that even policy in itself doesn't happen overnight. I kind of had to take that in stride and did a lot of different things at the Arc over the years. Before I started seeing fruit.
00;04;48;15 - 00;05;12;08
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And and really, what kept me going was the stories. As a person who's survived quite a few things myself in my own life, when I would hear stories of people, whether or not we had the funding, it lights the fire in you to keep on it, no matter what. And so, that is really kind of what sustained me throughout, throughout this journey.
00;05;12;08 - 00;05;27;05
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And the more that I've talked to other people about this, it's kind of like we create our own, our own little world of advocacy. And you see many new people coming to into the cause. And that's been really the most exciting part.
00;05;27;06 - 00;05;38;20
Janet Stewart
Was there one case in particular early on that really, really, you thought, wow, this is this is really powerful work that we're doing.
00;05;38;22 - 00;06;04;20
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
That early on. When I first came to the Arc, that first year, I worked on a death penalty case here in Texas where I live. And, and I remember there was six different people involved in this case where someone had been murdered. And out of all of those individuals, everyone pointed the finger to one person, the one person that had intellectual disabilities.
00;06;04;23 - 00;06;38;02
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And we brought in experts. You know, we flew in experts to explain to the jury what the situation was. And and I was just sure that they would understand, you know, knowing what I knew working at the Arc and it did not make one difference, in fact, because the crime was so serious, I think it just did not allow anyone to see what had actually happened here and how there was one fall guy and everyone pointed the finger to that person.
00;06;38;04 - 00;07;07;21
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And you know, when you realize how often that was happening throughout the country and other states, then, you know, but until you know, you don't know. And I think that's been one of the biggest moments. Although Bob's early work focused on, death penalty. You know, I knew that this was so much bigger and we had to have funding streams and ways to support this issue at every stage of the criminal justice process, that we couldn't just look at one piece of this.
00;07;07;24 - 00;07;13;13
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And that is really a big reason why, why we needed a national center to focus on it.
00;07;13;13 - 00;07;28;01
Janet Stewart
That's terrific. Now, last fall in your blog, I noticed that you said the pathways program is taking a fresh look at its practices with disability, kind of with a disability justice lens. What prompted this?
00;07;28;03 - 00;07;59;12
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
or many years. It was back in:00;07;59;15 - 00;08;25;24
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And, in that we were able to look at the different intersections that play into discrimination and violence towards people with ID, ID in the system. And we wanted to look at any innovative programs that were focusing on solutions. So that was before actually the George Floyd, killing had taken place at the hands of law enforcement.
00;08;25;26 - 00;08;52;00
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And then so once that came, we were thinking, how do we ensure that, people with disabilities are leading the conversation on these issues? And then Covid happened, and, it's been kind of a kind of another different journey to figure out how to make sure that this is key to everything that we're doing here at the center.
00;08;52;03 - 00;09;17;13
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So we're also looking at not only bringing this key piece into our pathways to justice training, which we've had for a number of years now, but also how that can be and other trainings that we're a part of. And that has been a little challenging. I will say. Like what? Well, there's a training called crit, which is crisis response interview and training.
00;09;17;15 - 00;09;48;05
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And that has been a wonderful opportunity working with, the Bureau of Justice Assistance funding to take what's traditional CIT training, which is crisis intervention training, and take that and really ensure that we have more information on and throughout. Typical police training will include more focus on mental health. Or sometimes they may include autism, but they're not looking more comprehensively at.
00;09;48;07 - 00;10;21;13
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And so this was an opportunity to do that. However, we weren't really able to bring in thinking about other identities of people with Ida into that conversation. So now we have, this opportunity through the Cops office, which is also a part of the Department of Justice, to do an online training called Just Policing. And so we're taking this information around intersectionality as well as justice involved youth, because there are a lot of issues around juvenile justice and disability.
00;10;21;15 - 00;10;30;17
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And bringing that into, both our pathways training as well as the justice policing, so that that just policing will be happening over the next two years.
00;10;30;19 - 00;10;36;06
Janet Stewart
And so typically the training is for home law enforcement.
00;10;36;06 - 00;11;03;06
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
That is the focus of the training. Now that that is for the just policing, because that will actually live on the cop's office portal. But for the pathways training, it is more comprehensive than that. The pathways includes not only law enforcement but also legal professionals. So it could be attorneys, both sides, but, you know, prosecution as well as defense and then also, victim advocates.
00;11;03;09 - 00;11;30;16
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So we're wanting to bring in all the key players that could potentially interact with either a suspect defendant, victim, also someone who's incarcerated. And so that we're addressing this holistically, not just saying if we just come in and do a training, we can check that box. But you got that training. We know for a fact that training alone is never going to work.
00;11;30;19 - 00;11;58;08
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
There has to be a more comprehensive kind of world around that training that we're building. And that includes creating a disability response team. And that team is made up of a local law enforcement officer, a victim advocate, an attorney, a person with a disability, the disability advocate, at minimum, typically these teams are 15 to 20 people. And it could it could include probation and parole.
00;11;58;08 - 00;12;24;20
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Someone from the correction corrections as well. So it can be as broad as, the community wants it, but it's really a way to say, look, we're going to get in front of this issue. We choose to be proactive. We're not waiting for that crisis to happen. We're going to have a plan before these crises happen. And, you know, when we do this police training, we'll often hear from law enforcement.
00;12;24;23 - 00;12;47;27
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Can we hear you? We agree, that, that we need training on this issue. We agree that we could respond differently. But. But where do people go? What if they do need help? Right here in this moment? Who do we call for that? And the reality has been there is a lack of services in our communities.
00;12;47;29 - 00;12;59;18
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And you can't sugarcoat that one. I mean, if we don't have places for people to get support, then where do they go? See, they end up going cycling back into the criminal justice system.
00;12;59;25 - 00;13;09;01
Janet Stewart
So how are you going to get involved then in helping to to build all of that? That sounds like a a pretty big job in a lot of communities.
00;13;09;03 - 00;13;40;18
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And that is the point of the disability response team. And so in some of the states, we've already seen folks pass legislation, for example, to try to really raise awareness around key issues that are impacting their community. We have a, a team in Virginia where they got really involved in, needing, to pass legislation around sex ed so that people, with disabilities could have access to that and know what is safe.
00;13;40;18 - 00;14;01;25
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
What is not safe. We get many, many calls of people with ID ending up on the sex offender registry, for example. And so it's key issues like that that different communities are going to want to focus on. And that team of people can work together. When you're alone trying to address this, it's way too hard. It's way too, too overwhelming.
00;14;01;25 - 00;14;25;20
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Honestly, in no community can do that. But when you start building those relationships with people in your own community and you start seeing, you know, that officer did care about that piece, you know that officer has a child with disabilities and that judge really understood that piece of it. And then it starts its own synergy, because there are people that really do want to change things, but they just don't know how.
00;14;25;20 - 00;14;26;19
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And they're not connected.
00;14;26;20 - 00;14;45;05
Janet Stewart
Now the Arc has also been working with individual families, to promote awareness about people with IDD in the justice system. I know you've been working with a few. Well, quite a few families. Can you can you tell a couple of those stories of some of the work you've done with individuals?
00;14;45;07 - 00;15;15;23
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Sure. And I believe this is the most important part, that of the work that this center does. So I appreciate the question. There's one family in particular that reached out to us a few years ago regarding their son who died, actually, while they were with him, at the hands of law enforcement. And I remember working on their case and just how emotional it was and how difficult it was to see this family go through this.
00;15;15;25 - 00;15;41;12
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And it was just recently before our last national convention in New Orleans, back in November, that they reached back out to me because their lawsuit had been settled and they were now able to speak about it. And so they asked if I would meet with them. And I, of course, said yes. And I was emotionally preparing myself for this time to meet with him in person, because I knew it was going to be really difficult.
00;15;41;14 - 00;16;14;17
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
But they they never dreamed that they would lose their 16 year old son. And this is their only son, Eric, who has autism. The tragic way that they did just four years ago. They were doing a typical activity where they were out together. He was playing laser tag at a place in their community, and then when they were going to leave, their son Eric just kind of started having, you know, behaviors where he was, not comfortable.
00;16;14;17 - 00;16;40;20
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
He was feeling unsure of where he was, and he just started showing these behaviors that kind of concern them. So, so police were called to the scene and ended up so that he was put in a chokehold. And during this time, the whole time the parents are there, you know, seeing this happen. Ended up that he actually died right there.
00;16;40;23 - 00;17;11;29
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And what was really hard for this family is that it wasn't maybe three, 2 to 3 months before this that they had, a situation where they called police and it was great. And the officer did great and there was no problem. The officer knew how to de-escalate, and there was no, no problem at all. So you can imagine now they're here, you know, fast forward and they're in this situation thinking that the same thing would happen.
00;17;12;01 - 00;17;36;03
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And so what that really alerts us to and what we've been talking about together is that there just isn't that consistency and response. And that's why the training is important. But that's not the only thing that's important. We have to think about much more than that. But training is one of those things that can help officers understand what exactly can go wrong and just how long it can go.
00;17;36;10 - 00;18;06;18
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And I'm talking about in minutes. You know, this happened very quickly. And so we're doing everything we can to support this family because now they have their own healing. They are traumatized by this. And they don't want Eric to ever be forgotten. And we're looking for ways to make sure that his story is told, that, you know, that this family really wants folks to understand that his life mattered and that his life continues to matter.
00;18;06;21 - 00;18;30;01
Janet Stewart
Now after George Floyd. A number of communities around the country have started thinking about alternative policing methods. It's a much more common conversation today. How how are those efforts going? Are are is the are are the different organizations being brought into some of those community conversations and and how is that going?
00;18;30;03 - 00;18;57;18
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Yeah, we've seen that happening with some chapters throughout the country. And one of I'm glad you raised that, because one of the things that we had focused on is the new nine hundred eighty eight number. So that number is there to direct, make a different direction rather than going to officers that someone else is responding to that crisis, not a law enforcement response if it is not needed.
00;18;57;20 - 00;19;25;16
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And, that is one avenue that we're trying to look to, throughout the country to see where is Ida a part of that conversation? If it's not, why not? Because mostly it's not been that number was more focused on, calls around suicide, but it also talks about crisis, crisis response and we know that this happens, for people with ideas as well.
00;19;25;18 - 00;19;41;10
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So the reason I raised non hundred and eight is because when we think about, different responses, community based responses versus policing peer based responses, that's key. I think peer based is really important.
00;19;41;12 - 00;19;44;05
Janet Stewart
What do you mean by that and what how does that turn up?
00;19;44;06 - 00;20;22;19
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So basically, you know, someone who's experienced this before, someone who wants to provide, support, say, through a crisis, if someone's providing crisis response, how our peers, people who have experienced this, maybe people with lived experience, you would hear that term or people with disabilities are a part of that process and able to, to really not just hear this from the professional side of you, but they're hearing it from a person who's lived through it and can really identify with someone that's just like them.
00;20;22;21 - 00;20;51;06
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And we've seen this happening, you know, more in the mental health field. SAMHSa the substance abuse mental health services Administration has been supporting peer led activities for many years, peer led training, etc., but we're really wanting to open that up more to the idea field and see how we can create funding to pay people for their experience, their expertise and their knowledge around this.
00;20;51;08 - 00;21;00;29
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So you can imagine what that could look like and how that could really change the conversation. Hearing from people with disabilities in all of these different areas.
00;21;01;06 - 00;21;04;26
Janet Stewart
So is that already happening or is that something you're working on?
00;21;04;28 - 00;21;27;12
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
We're working on. Okay. I'd like to I like to plant seeds. It may not exactly be happening. I mean, it's happening in some ways outside of the criminal justice system. Of course. For example, if someone in is a victim of a crime and they are needing supports or services, you can have someone like a navigator, come alongside.
00;21;27;12 - 00;21;56;16
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So we see some of that happening. But not enough, not to the extent that it could be. And again, that's another way of, using funding, a kind of pulling it away from, looking at a criminal justice law enforcement response only and saying, well, if we put some money over here to really support peers to make these connections, to provide support, that can really be a game changer.
00;21;56;16 - 00;22;05;20
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
We don't know until we try and we start putting some evaluation and research behind it and really, really know what strategies work best.
00;22;05;23 - 00;22;15;22
Janet Stewart
Oh, that sounds like a great idea. Any other updates to Nick, Jade or pathways? Anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to touch on?
00;22;15;25 - 00;22;44;24
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Well, I, I think I mentioned a little bit, but we did recently, celebrate a ten year anniversary at the Arts National Convention in New Orleans back in November, which was so exciting. And we will continue to do that throughout this coming year. Just really trying to raise awareness of these issues to the level that we can, gained the amount of funding and support needed to continue to do the work of the center.
00;22;44;27 - 00;23;10;25
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So I would really encourage anyone who's listening, to contact us, if they want to support this work in any way, whether it's sharing your story. Also, we have a national information and referral line, so we will help people with disabilities calling in, attorneys, police, anyone who wants to ask questions, get training. We're here for that.
00;23;10;25 - 00;23;11;09
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
As well.
00;23;11;14 - 00;23;16;02
Janet Stewart
And how how do I access that? Is that a phone number or is it a website?
00;23;16;05 - 00;23;29;14
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Yes, we do have a website. If you go on to the Arc's website, which is, the arc.org, you can look up criminal justice initiatives under there and that will take you straight to our our home page.
00;23;29;16 - 00;24;06;01
Janet Stewart
Terrific, Ali. And it's just been wonderful to, have this conversation with you. I'm it's really great to kind of see the progress. And I know it can be frustratingly slow, but it does. It does seem that things are starting to become, a little more accessible to people, a little, a little more within reach. As you as you sit here today and you think about, you know, years after George Floyd, the funding that is starting to trickle in for some of these different initiatives.
00;24;06;04 - 00;24;15;23
Janet Stewart
Do you do you feel like we're on the cusp of some big, some big changes or are the numbers still kind of stacked against us?
00;24;15;25 - 00;24;42;16
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Oh, wow, what a question. You know, that is hard to say because you do see different like legislation, possible legislation that could, you know, tipped the ball into our favor. Nine, eight, eight. Could that be a path to really draw funding, to focus on this issue in a very different way so that we can build capacity in communities and not just focus on law enforcement response within legislation?
00;24;42;16 - 00;24;48;08
Janet Stewart
What would what would you say would be the critical piece that that would really make a difference? Do you think?
00;24;48;11 - 00;25;13;27
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Well, I mean, if we could get 908 to really support people with Id2 and it'd be a more comprehensive of I think that would be a good start, but also really fully, funding and supporting any kind of crisis intervention programs. How are we not addressing the deeper needs and the root causes of people's trauma, of why there are where they are in life?
00;25;14;00 - 00;25;48;23
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
How does disability play into that? How does race plan do that? What about where they live, the socioeconomics of where they're at? I mean, we we tend to want to focus on one answer, and it's really much more complicated than that. If we could look at different pieces of legislation and all of the disability community come together in looking at that, along with the law enforcement, the different kind of disability advocates and victim advocates, I think we would have a better chance overall.
00;25;48;27 - 00;25;55;04
Janet Stewart
I think you've really just described disability, disability justice as a whole, and that's what our issue has been all about.
00;25;55;05 - 00;26;16;13
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Reminds me of the term inclusive justice, which is one that, we had brought out in some of our international work. As we've looked at, what are other countries doing in this space? You know, some are much farther ahead than us or doing things much better than us at least trying, to address, you know, these issues.
00;26;16;13 - 00;26;18;09
Janet Stewart
And how are we different?
00;26;18;14 - 00;26;49;15
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
Well, we are part of, the Access to Justice International Hub, and that has been going on for about 6 to 7 years now and have traveled to the UK to have meetings there. The center's also been in Austria, and most recently last year, South Korea, who they were looking at wanting to create a national center on criminal justice and disability, like what we have here in the US.
00;26;49;18 - 00;27;17;24
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
And so different places, different places are really, on the continuum, right, of being just talking about it to really being more advanced than where we are. And examples of that would be in the UK, where they have what's called, intermediaries that will actually be part of the court system. Who can go into the court system and provide more communication support.
00;27;18;00 - 00;27;42;21
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
So they're not really there as advocates, but more as anyone who needs support with communication. Obviously, that helps in the advocacy world, right? Because now they're being heard seeing someone standing up for them to make sure that they're that they have the communication needs met. There's, you know, the question of what is actually doable here in, in our country.
00;27;42;23 - 00;28;11;23
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
But there's also, things like in Israel, where there's been a really good effort to train, police officers and that that has seemed to, really help. And officers have been open to learning about disability. So different things are going on. And I think it's important that we build solidarity around these, this issue internationally, because it can help us to understand where we are in the story.
00;28;11;27 - 00;28;19;23
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
It helps us to understand where we are on the map when it comes to to these issues. And we can really learn from each other.
00;28;19;23 - 00;28;26;15
Janet Stewart
Terrific, Ollie. And it's just been wonderful to, have this conversation with you. Thank you so much.
00;28;26;15 - 00;28;35;14
Leigh Anne Mckingsley
All right. Thank you, Jan, and I appreciate it. So great. Bye bye.
00;28;35;17 - 00;28;45;27
Janet Stewart
Thanks for joining the conversation. If you'd like to reproduce all or part of this podcast, please email Pub at n.edu.
00;28;45;29 - 00;29;19;08
Peter McCauley
Our show is co-produced at the University of Minnesota's Institute on Community Integration by Impact managing editor Janet Stewart and ICI media producer Pete McCauley. Skyler Mihajlov is our editor. Graphic designers are Connie Burkhart and Sarah Curtner. For more information on the Institute and all of our products and projects, please visit ICI. NSEU.
