Transcripts
Hey, I want to ask you a question, Stu.
Stu:Yes.
Mac:Why didn't I get included in that whole thing?
Mac:You were just saying that the Rev.
Mac:I mean, you know, what am I, chopped liver over here?
Stu:I don't know what you're talking about.
The Rev:You're the puppet master guy in the whole thing.
Stu:This place is way too thin for you to fit.
Podcast Host:I think that's the thing that's a taste of thin places.
Podcast Host:This week's episode of the Wise Guys, a podcast that unleashes the unthinkable in culture, religion, business, and everyday life.
Podcast Host:This week, the guys will introduce you to the benefits of clearing your mind so you can open your heart.
Podcast Host:So it's time to step over the line, strap in, and see if you are willing to let Mac the Rev and Coach Stu take you to a place of thinking differently.
The Rev:Okay.
Mac:Welcome to the Wise Guys, a podcast where we unleash the unthinkable and step over the line to help us see things differently and go to the inside edge.
Mac:We hope that we'll speak not only to your ears, but to your spirit as well.
Mac:So that's our mission tonight.
Mac:But, hi, I'm Mac, and I'm your host in this episode.
Mac:We're going to try to.
Mac:We're going to have so much fun with this.
Mac:I mean, we've been talking about this for the last 45 minutes.
Mac:Almost an hour more, probably together, we're going to talk about what we're calling thin places.
Mac:And you may not.
Mac:You know, you may not understand that term right now, but that's okay.
The Rev:We're not talking about my hairline.
The Rev:Right.
Stu:That's right back.
Mac:It won't be scary, like being on thin ice or.
Mac:Okay, as the Rev is saying.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Don't get.
Mac:Don't get worried.
Mac:But it will, I think.
Mac:I hope it will introduce you to the benefits of clearing your mind so you can open your heart.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So that's a kind of our mission tonight.
Mac:But got my guys.
Mac:Got my Wise guys with me.
The Rev:Rev, good to be one of your guys.
The Rev:Good to see you, Mac.
Mac:Welcome, welcome.
The Rev:Coaches here, too.
Mac:And the coaches in the house.
Stu:I love being a wise guy.
Stu:So cool, so fun.
Stu:It's so fun.
Mac:Fits right in.
Stu:Are we the Three Stooges?
Stu:Is that what just happened?
The Rev:You caught the commentary?
Mac:Well, that might fit.
Mac:Okay.
Stu:The Rev.
Stu:I don't know which one is the Rev and which one is Mac?
Stu:I don't know.
Mac:Well, I.
Stu:Which one am I?
Mac:I got.
The Rev:You're Larry.
Mac:That's right.
Mac:Okay, one of you guys can Be Mo.
Mac:All right, let's see what happens.
Stu:Hey, Mo.
Stu:Well, hey, let me say hello to all of you beautiful, exotic cocktails out there.
Stu:Hello, everybody.
Mac:Hey, gang.
Stu:Glad you're here.
Stu:Glad you're with us.
The Rev:Glad you're back with us.
Mac:Absolutely.
Stu:Back with us.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Back with us.
The Rev:Of course, again and again and again.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:So welcome.
Mac:Yes, welcome.
Mac:Welcome to the gathering, guys and gals.
Mac:All right, so again, we've set the stage, but of course, you know what we have to do to start with, right?
The Rev:I mean, I'm ready for my rating.
Mac:We need some words to the wise, don't we?
Mac:So we might flip a little bit this week from last week, and that's okay.
Mac:We're going to kind of vary this thing up and give us a little diversity.
Mac:So here's the sign.
Mac:Remember, we're talking about basically church signs.
Mac:And so they're so entertaining.
Mac:You can find all kinds of them out there.
Mac:And so here's this week's church sign.
Mac:Here's what it says.
Mac:If you don't love God, go to hell.
Stu:Oh, boy.
Mac:How about that one?
Mac:Okay, so what do you think about this sign, guys?
Mac:My wise guys?
The Rev:You know, I thought about it when you sent this.
The Rev:It's like.
The Rev:I don't know what I think about it because I tried to crawl into the mindset of the guy or the gal who put that on that sign.
The Rev:What were they thinking?
The Rev:Because it was a negative three immediately.
The Rev:Minus three.
The Rev:Come on.
The Rev:You don't think the way I think and love God?
The Rev:The way I love God.
The Rev:Go to hell.
The Rev:And I thought, well, maybe that wasn't the mindset.
The Rev:Maybe that's my judgment of that sign, and I need to sit in the stillness of examining.
The Rev:Maybe there's a different intent.
Mac:Go to thin place.
The Rev:So I went up to a zero.
Stu:Here we are, back to zero.
Mac:Just get neutral about it.
The Rev:I am present.
The Rev:I am.
Stu:I think that they left some words out of this.
Mac:All right, what would you.
Stu:They ran out of the little.
Stu:Those little letters that they put on the sign, and this is all they could come up with.
Stu:So I think.
Stu:I think if.
Stu:What it really says, okay, if you don't love God, you will go to hell, I think is what it says.
Stu:Because go to hell is kind of like.
Stu:Like in your face, like, go to hell.
Stu:Yeah, but if you're saying, I mean, both ways, for me, it's a negative three.
Mac:Exactly right.
Stu:But I think they left a couple of words out that you will part.
Stu:You will go to hel be.
The Rev:All right, Pastor, what are we Going to do.
The Rev:We're out of L's leap Will out.
Mac:I'll go make something up then.
Mac:Whatever works.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:So, yeah, you know, for me, yes, it's a negative three.
Mac:And again, it's the kind of message that this is sort of the fire insurance message that a lot of churches will put on their marquee to, you know, talk about Christianity.
Mac:And again, I've written blog posts about this.
Mac:I've talked about this, you know, numerous times about, you know, and R.A.
Mac:bell.
Mac:I kind of was thinking about the Raw Bell thing as we were going back and forth.
Mac:You know, what kind of, you know, what kind of God is that?
Mac:You know, it can't be good news, you know.
Stu:Right.
Mac:So, you know, to propagate this kind of attitude or this kind of faith or this kind of perspective, I just, you know, I would offer a different perspective on the whole scenario, if you will, than that.
Mac:So I guess I'll end it.
Mac:Right.
Stu:I'll just say I believe in a different God than the sign says.
Mac:There it is.
Mac:That's probably a good way to describe it as well.
Mac:I think so.
Mac:So, okay, we got what, three negative threes, right?
Mac:Yeah, no, zero.
Mac:You went back to zero.
The Rev:I'm suspending my initial knee jerk judgment and just going, okay, I want to try to understand.
Mac:Yeah, there must be something more going on here.
Mac:All right.
Mac:You are so kind.
Mac:You are just so kind.
Mac:Me, I want to grab the guy by the throat and just kind of, you know, shake him a little bit here.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:All right, so we got a negative three, negative three and a zero.
Stu:Right?
Mac:All right, guys.
Mac:So fun.
Mac:All right.
Mac:So thin place.
Mac:Gosh, I've been looking forward to this episode, really all week because I'm so charged up about the concepts here.
Mac:And I think you really.
Mac:Oh, man, if we can all just get this a little bit more, it's going to make a huge difference.
Mac:So here we are.
Mac:We're going to talk about thin places.
Mac:And just to give you a little bit of kind of setup for this, I look at it sort of as the edge.
Mac:And we talk about going to the, you know, to the inside edge, right?
Mac:The edge between the real and the surreal.
Mac:You know, that you've got this, I don't want to call it a veil, but I want to, you know, that it's that it's that meeting point out there.
Mac:Take you through the journey into the thin places and ponder the what, the why and the how of the experience.
Mac:That's really what we want to do today, is to just go on that journey.
Mac:We have not yet evolved to look with wisdom upon the speed of the world.
Mac:And I think there's another great point to make that things are just in all of history are going way faster than we've ever had human capability to keep up with.
Mac:You know, and so we're frustrated.
Mac:There's a lot of anxiety, all that kind of stuff.
The Rev:So I think there's a low grade depression happening.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:Human race is running a low grade depression and we don't even know what it is manifesting as anger and fear.
Mac:But yeah, no, yeah.
Mac:Hello.
Mac:I think so.
Mac:Right.
Mac:So.
Mac:So there we are.
Mac:So what is it?
The Rev:Well, you know.
The Rev:You got it.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:You can't go somewhere if you don't know it is.
The Rev:And I think it's really important to just define the terms.
The Rev:And I had a couple of quotes, one I wrote in a talk many, many years ago to explain what it is.
The Rev:And a thin place.
The Rev:And I like the word veil, by the way.
Mac:Okay.
The Rev:It's a place where the veil that separates heaven and earth is lifted and one is able to glimpse the glory of the universe.
The Rev:A place where the light is not all on the other side.
The Rev:It's a place where the merging of the human and the spiritual.
The Rev:And I say a thin place can be the center of the cross, the human and the divine meeting there.
The Rev:It can be a holy place, encounter on earth.
The Rev:It could be within you.
The Rev:But I just love this poet, Steven Wheeler, who said this.
The Rev:A thin place is where two worlds collide, where the ethereal and the material tenderly kiss and coincide, and where a coalescence of spirit and body may be sealed, where you lose yourself and you find your soul.
The Rev:It's a journey everybody's looking for.
The Rev:I want to find my soul, my purpose, my reason for being, what I truly am.
The Rev:And a thin place, either a location somewhere or it's an experience that we have.
The Rev:Is that place where we get a glimpse of our own soul and a glimpse of God.
The Rev:Yeah, that's kind of how I define it.
The Rev:What do you guys think?
Mac:I like the one part we go, okay, I love that kiss part.
Stu:That was very good.
Mac:That was good.
Stu:I was trying to think about something in my life that would have this feeling like.
Stu:Like a.
Stu:Like a thin place feeling.
Stu:Right.
Stu:Not a location, but just like the feeling of it.
Stu:Right, yeah.
Stu:Because I get.
Stu:There could be locations.
Mac:Sure.
Mac:Right, right.
The Rev:I have lots of friends that I go to Sedona to feel the vortex, or I go to Machu Picchu, or I go to Stonehenge and they have an experience there.
The Rev:God.
The Rev:But you don't have to travel for sure.
Stu:Whenever I hike and camp in the North Georgia mountains and there is any.
Stu:There isn't any man made noises and, you know, the phone doesn't work because we're out of range.
Stu:I mean, that for sure is a thin place.
Stu:But what I was trying to imagine, and this is what I came up with, was this.
Stu:You know that.
Stu:You know that place between when you're asleep and when you're awake?
Stu:Yeah, that place.
Stu:That place when you still.
Stu:So think about this.
Stu:That place when you still remember dreaming.
Mac:Oh, yeah, right.
Stu:Right between sleep and awake.
Mac:Okay.
Stu:Like that.
Stu:That's.
Stu:That's how I visualize this.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:Yeah.
Stu:And I can't always stay there because it's like if I go back to sleep, I go back to sleep.
Stu:If I'm awake, I'm awake and I'm out of it.
Stu:So it's that, right?
Stu:It's that you can't.
Stu:And I can't even control that I'm in it.
Stu:But it's happened a lot for me.
The Rev:Is it that place where the ego hasn't quite taken back control when you've woken up and it's like you're in that mystical little window where it's like everything is magical and beautiful and the ego hasn't taken control yet?
Mac:Well, there's an ego.
Stu:Those are always the places where I remember my dreams.
Stu:So what I have to do if I want to keep whatever happened in that thin place alive, I literally have a notebook by my bed.
Stu:I'll write it down and I may go right back to sleep or I may wake up, but if I don't write it down immediately, it's gone.
Mac:Well, either that or I get the 3:00am text.
Stu:That's right, 3:00am it happens a lot for me at 3:00am yeah.
Mac:Ding.
Mac:Okay, Stu.
Mac:Must be pondering.
Mac:Okay.
The Rev:I think it's a mystical experience of the divine of God, but whatever name you want to give that essence of life itself, it's a mystical depth that surpasses explanation, human explanation.
The Rev:I'm feeling something, and I don't know why I'm feeling this, but it's good and it's holy.
The Rev:That's kind of what I think it is.
Mac:Well, and it's hard to describe.
Mac:I mean, we're doing our best here.
Mac:We're trying to give some analogies, we're trying to give some explanation, but at the end of the day, it's a mystery, you know, that.
Mac:That I think Rev, hit it on there.
Mac:That at.
Mac:The very best explanation we start with is it's one of those divine encounters, right.
Mac:That we're going to encounter the divine in a unique way that you can't do other ways per se.
Mac:Not that any of the other ways are bad, but, you know, this whole getting to the thin places is going to set you up for those encounters better.
Mac:I don't know and I know we're.
The Rev:Going to get into what it might require of us, but I think I mentioned the ego.
The Rev:You've got to give up control to be in that place.
The Rev:You don't have control because you're anchored to a finite human reality.
The Rev:And you have to be open to the mystery, to the unpredictable, to what?
The Rev:God.
The Rev:All notions of God are suspended.
The Rev:So you can be open to receive.
Mac:What.
Mac:What is your.
Mac:What's your mug say?
Stu:Stu Wise realizes that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Mac:So this may take you to an uncomfortable place as well.
Stu:Right, right.
Mac:So, you know, keep that in mind.
Mac:We might get into that a little bit deeper as we go on, but, you know, the essence of these thin places.
Mac:I'm going to use some quotes.
Mac:You know, it's a Celtic tradition and was carried on very much, you know, in the Dark Ages and even into the Middle Ages, where, you know, they were very in tune, very connected with the earth, with, you know, whether it's the water, the sky, the rocks, the, you know, and they saw and they, you know, really embraced nature, sort of whispering to them.
Mac:Again, you can't do that if you're just got your monkey brain going, you.
The Rev:Know, in the Celtic tradition, I quote, I found is heaven and earth are only three feet apart, but in the thin places, that distance is even smaller.
Mac:There we go.
Mac:There it is.
Mac:I mean, it's this whole thing about putting yourself in closer proximity and again, that you can define it lots of different ways, whether it's physical or whether it's mental or whatever.
Mac:But we operate at a level, most of us, that is fairly distant from that in a normal sense, you know, just as we live in our life and we're doing our thing, so, you know, it's an encouragement to go into these places that help you exhale, that help you encounter, that help you grow, that help you gain wisdom.
The Rev:So it must require intention.
The Rev:You've got to have an intention to go to that place.
The Rev:If you don't want to go to that place, there's no intention to go there.
The Rev:You're not going to experience the thin person.
Mac:I don't care where you go.
The Rev:Right.
The Rev:Purposeful.
The Rev:I'm purposely seeking a greater experience of God.
The Rev:And I must be mindful about why I'm doing it.
The Rev:Why do we do it?
The Rev:I don't know.
The Rev:Anybody got an answer for why we do it?
The Rev:Coach, before.
Stu:Before we talk about that, I just wanted to comment on what you just said.
Stu:I mean, it.
Stu:That that's a positive outlook.
Stu:And I love that about you.
Stu:I mean, I think like that too, but you could be thrust into it, in place.
The Rev:Yeah.
Stu:Right.
Stu:It could be found in grief, loss.
Mac:Right.
Stu:You could find it like at a funeral.
Stu:I mean, it could be found where you're kind of navigating near death experiences.
Mac:True.
Stu:I mean, so you can have.
Stu:And I'm not going to necessarily say those are negative experiences, but they're different than what you were describing.
The Rev:Yeah.
The Rev:Well, by right.
The Rev:Consciousness.
The Rev:That naked.
The Rev:Then I began.
The Rev:I've said this number of times on the podcast.
The Rev:I am the person I am not because of the joyous moments, but because the dark nights of my soul when I was on my knees.
The Rev:So I think you're absolutely right.
The Rev:By right of my consciousness, my deep grief can be an avenue to find God for sure.
Stu:Yeah.
Mac:Hey, I want to ask you a question, Stu.
Stu:Yes.
Mac:Why didn't I get included in that whole thing?
Mac:You were just saying that the Rev.
Mac:I mean, you know, I'm.
Mac:What am I, chopped liver over here?
Stu:I don't.
Guest:I don't know.
Stu:I don't know what you're talking.
The Rev:You're the puppet master guiding the whole thing.
Stu:This place is way too thin for you to fit.
Stu:That's.
Stu:I think that's the thing.
Mac:Oh, gosh.
Mac:I'm squirming over here, man.
The Rev:Oh, my gosh.
Stu:Oh, yeah.
Stu:Oh, yeah.
Mac:So what do we.
Stu:Why.
Stu:Why do we do it?
Mac:Right?
Stu:Why do we.
Stu:Okay, why do we do it?
Stu:Well, the rev mentioned this earlier.
Stu:We're in.
Stu:In a state of, you know, there's a state of depression going on, and it's because we're on.
Stu:To me, it's because everybody's operating on a hamster wheel right now.
Stu:We're just running, running, running, like that analogy and not getting anywhere.
Stu:But you just.
Stu:You get up and you get on the wheel and boom, boom, boom.
Stu:You're go, go, go, go, go, go, go.
Stu:And then it's time to go to bed.
Stu:Boom.
Stu:And it's like, what happened?
Stu:Yeah, what.
Stu:What just happened in my life and in my day and we're not paying attention and we just can't keep up with everything going on in life.
Stu:You know, maybe it's because there on your plate, you know, maybe too much gets thrust at you.
Mac:Yeah.
Stu:I mean, so, so because of this, we don't get to spend.
Stu:Many people don't get a chance to spend time with God or with spirit.
Stu:So we're just spiritually bankrupt or just.
The Rev:Even in the silence, you know, you were talking about the hamster wheel.
The Rev:I've known people that they don't get off the hamster wheel when they go to sleep.
The Rev:It's.
The Rev:The mind is still driving things and going.
The Rev:And it's like they have no rest.
The Rev:They have no silence and stillness in their life.
The Rev:They can't even find God if they can't even get still.
Stu:This is true, this, this.
Stu:I mean, in all honesty, for me, this happens a lot.
Stu:And, and I have to literally distract my mind to, to be able to get to sleep some nights.
Stu:I mean, to your point, like, I can't just sit there in the still of the night because you're right.
Stu:The brain starts going.
Stu:Right.
Stu:I know.
Stu:I was ready to hit a 50 song.
Stu:I was like, oh gosh, let's see if we can hit the harmony.
Stu:That would be awesome.
Stu:So, so yeah, I mean that, that's.
Stu:I don't know, it's like we all, we all just need to.
Stu:Okay, Rogers, listen to me, please, please hear me out.
Stu:We all need just to slow down.
Stu:I mean, we're all just going at the speed of light too fast, right?
Stu:I mean, I love how Mac will put it, like going Mach 5 with.
Stu:Or Mach 6 with your hair on fire.
Stu:That's, that's how we, I mean, that's how we operate life.
Stu:Yeah, right, right.
Stu:I mean, and, and when you do that, you miss so much.
Stu:I mean, you miss everything.
The Rev:You know, I'm curious, Mac, because you, you do go 100 miles an hour.
The Rev:You're always getting stuff done and making things happen.
The Rev:But you're deeply spiritual too.
The Rev:And what is your balance between those two worlds?
The Rev:You know, you have to draw a balance to get to that place of seeking the thin place.
The Rev:Being the thin place.
The Rev:Even in your very fast paced world.
The Rev:Why do you do it?
Mac:Well, the why says to me that if I, you know, if I get caught up in it, then I really lose perspective, you know, then it's me being reactive almost all the time to everything else that's going on around me.
Stu:It's tough to live that way.
Stu:Right?
Mac:Oh gosh.
Stu:Reacting to everything, man, you're just.
Mac:You'll spin like a top, you know, and, and so, you know, for me, regardless, you Know, I make a commitment that says, look, I know A, B and C and D and E and whatever, whatever, whatever.
Mac:I'm spinning all these other plates.
Mac:But this time I used to say to people, you know, and this, you know, I was much for myself as for anybody else, because I don't want to say like, I've arrived.
Mac:If it turns out that you are committed to your spirituality, to connecting, to going to the thin places, to becoming more, to getting wise, then if you don't allocate any time, like none, you're just.
Mac:Life is driving it.
Mac:Okay, everything in your life, then what are you really saying to the universe or to.
Mac:If you believe in God?
Mac:I mean, to God.
Mac:What are you saying to God?
Mac:Everything else in my life, everything is.
Stu:More important than you.
Stu:Right?
The Rev:That's ego.
The Rev:The acronym ego.
Mac:Ego.
The Rev:Edging God out.
Mac:I don't think I've ever heard that before, but that's.
Mac:It is perfect.
The Rev:But you've got an intention there.
The Rev:God is your priority.
The Rev:A sense of well being and connection to the universe is your priority over all the stuff and the plates you're spinning.
Mac:That's it.
Mac:It's more than zero and hopefully more than that.
Mac:Even as time goes along, we're going to do an episode, I guarantee it.
Mac:On the more than zero.
Stu:We have to.
Stu:There's good stories behind that.
The Rev:I've used that since I met you guys.
Stu:I don't want to bypass it.
Stu:I mean, for a moment here, to me it's what allows me to spend time with God, whereas before I didn't, because I didn't feel like I had enough time to spend with him.
Stu:And then I realized, okay, it could be a second.
Stu:I mean, literally, it could be just a quick thought, or it could be something I do or feel.
Stu:It could be longer, 30 minutes, could be an hour, it could be all day.
The Rev:Gandhi said, I have such a busy day before me, I have to take an extra hour to meditate.
The Rev:And I find that when I don't take the time, I don't have enough time.
The Rev:And when I do take the time, suddenly time expands.
The Rev:How did I get all this done?
The Rev:All because I took the time to partner with something greater than me.
Stu:I love that.
The Rev:To look for a thin place, even if it's as close as just I took a breath.
Mac:Yeah, 10 seconds, something like that, Right?
Stu:Yeah.
Mac:Again, it all works together.
Mac:And starting with an intention, a commitment, not just a thought.
Mac:But you're going to have to put it one more step and you're going to have to say, this is What I'm going to do.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:I mean, it starts with a thought, but.
Stu:So, Mac, I got one more.
Stu:Why?
Stu:Why you should do it.
Mac:All right.
Mac:All right, I'm listening.
Stu:How about renewing your.
Stu:You ready for this?
Stu:I'm going to sound really smart right now.
Stu:How about renewing your ecclesia.
Mac:Oh.
Stu:Which in the Bible means church, but it's not like a building church.
Stu:It's just a gathering.
Stu:So how about renewing that gathering?
Stu:It could be that you go to a building.
Stu:You know, I don't want to exclude that it could be that, but, you know, for me, it's up in the mountains.
Stu:It's.
Stu:I mean, sometimes it's when I gather with my team, you know, at tournaments with people that I want to be around.
Stu:I mean, whatever it may be.
Stu:This might sound strange, but to me, it happens at funerals because my family is so big.
Stu:I get to see them all.
Stu:And it's amazing, right?
Stu:I mean, we're celebrating a life, and I get to see everybody and hang out with the people that are here still that I can spend time with.
Mac:Well, and love on them.
Mac:And, you know, all that.
Mac:I mean, all that energy, and we.
Stu:Reconnect, and that's an easy place to be.
The Rev:And I think that's what's missing from the planet.
The Rev:The depression that we talked about earlier is because we are missing connection with each other.
The Rev:So why do you go to a thin place?
The Rev:I'm going to say my answer is because I owe it to my community.
The Rev:So I'm bringing it to rebuilding the church.
The Rev:I'm rebuilding the community that the thinner I am, the more possibility of that thin experience of God, that close experience of God is for everybody around me.
The Rev:So there's a sense of responsibility in addition to just doing it for myself.
The Rev:Sure.
Stu:Here's what happens.
Mac:I love that.
Stu:I do, too.
Mac:That's the communal thing.
Stu:And here's what happens when you do that.
Stu:That somebody around you, then they may not say it out loud, but they're thinking, man, I don't know what it is about the rev, but I got to be around.
Mac:I want something.
The Rev:I want what he's had.
Stu:I got to be.
Stu:Yeah, I got to be around.
The Rev:I say that about you.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:I say it about Mac, too, actually.
Mac:Thank you.
Mac:Thank you very much.
Mac:Well, I think that's a mutual thing here.
Stu:I mean, that's.
Stu:I.
Stu:I strive.
Stu:I.
Stu:You know, I.
Stu:It's going to be.
Stu:It's going to sound funny to say this.
Stu:I.
Stu:I strive to.
Stu:To be.
Stu:Be that person, but I Can't, like, do.
Stu:I Can't, like, wake up and say, I'm going to be that person.
Stu:You know what I mean?
Stu:Like, there's other things in your life you have to do to.
Stu:All of a sudden, you're that guy that.
Stu:They're like, wow, I just want to be around him.
Stu:You're that person.
Stu:Whoever.
Stu:You know, I like being around him.
Stu:I feel good, or something's different when I'm around that person.
Mac:Right, right.
The Rev:And what's wonderful is an exponential increase.
The Rev:You affect one person, that person now is a little bit higher off the ground, a little bit closer to God, and they're now affecting two other people and two more people.
The Rev:And that's how we save the world.
Stu:And so on and so on and so on.
Mac:Well, you know, we talk about the me and the we a lot, and it's really, really important because it's great for each individual to go to a place, and you can't really kind of help anybody else get to some place you've never been.
Mac:Right.
Mac:I mean, you know, it's harder.
The Rev:Is there an immediate we when you go find that thin place?
The Rev:Because it's not just you, your personality, you're connecting with God.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:Well, I'm reminded of.
The Rev:Was it Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin and said, this is my favorite time.
The Rev:And Christopher Robin said, what's that?
The Rev:And he says, when you and me become we.
The Rev:And is that ultimately the thin place?
The Rev:When there is the one that is you and God in total partnership and communion, and then you bring that back to the world and have communion, whether it be at a funeral, whether it be walking the forest, your communion with the trees, It's a complete sense of oneness.
The Rev:But there's a weeness there.
Mac:Sure.
Mac:Whoa.
Stu:That's amazing.
Stu:You know, I can't remember the person's name, but whoever wrote Winnie the Pooh, they're a wise guy.
Stu:They are.
Stu:They are.
Stu:Definitely.
The Rev:For sure.
Mac:Oh, yeah.
Mac:Just like the guy that is Calvin and Hobbes.
Mac:I mean, there's incredible there.
Mac:I see that every day.
Mac:All right.
Mac:Gosh, that's.
Mac:That's some really good.
Mac:Heady and yet spiritual.
Mac:Just, oh, man nuggets.
The Rev:But I don't know how to do it.
Mac:How do I do it, Max?
Mac:Well, I guess we need to come back after the break and discuss.
Mac:Jump into that, huh?
Stu:That would be fun.
The Rev:Come back if you want to know how to do it.
Stu:That's right.
Mac:All right, so we're going to take a little break here, and we're going to just Chew on that whole thing and ponder it a bit.
Mac:And we'll be right back to go to the how do you do it?
Mac:Thanks.
Mac:We'll be right back.
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Mac:Okay, welcome back to the Wise Guys Podcast, where in this episode, we are talking about thin places.
The Rev:Thin places.
Mac:And it's been pretty exciting so far.
Mac:We've talked about, what is it?
Mac:What are they?
Mac:Why do you want to even want to go there?
Mac:I mean, what's the purpose?
Mac:Why should you even, you know, get up in the morning and even think about this kind of stuff?
Mac:And now we're going to talk the rest of the episode, for the most part, about.
Mac:Well, okay, if you're nodding in the right direction, if you're.
Mac:Well, okay, all right, I'm getting this.
Mac:This makes sense.
Mac:What do I do?
Mac:How do I do it?
Mac:What are the things that I can begin purposefully to do that can help, you know, me go to these places?
Mac:So what I want to do is I want to play a clip from one of my favorite guys.
Mac:I mean, you know, we.
Mac:We study this guy all the time.
Mac:We talk about him all the time.
Mac:This is Father Richard Rohr.
Mac:And I'm not even going to give him much of a lead in here.
Mac:Let him tell you this, who it is.
Mac:And now let's just start this part of the episode with him.
Mac:All right, hang on.
Guest:Sacrament of the present moment.
Guest:Remember that.
Guest:The sun, that if you can encounter the presence, it's.
Guest:It's all about presence.
Guest:And that's what we just celebrated, real presence.
Guest:And when you're present and when you know how to be present, you'll know what you need to know.
Guest:Now, here's what I got to tell.
Guest:And some of you are going to fight me on it, I'm sure.
Guest:But you can't be present with your mind.
Mac:You can't.
Guest:Maybe you just have to take my word for it.
Guest:Now, the mind can only do two things.
Guest:It can worry about the future, and it can reprocess the past over and over and over and over and over again.
Guest:And most people are in one or the other or both of those.
Mac:Adams that's my man.
Mac:Okay, So I thought it was really interesting.
Mac:You're probably going to fight me on this, right?
Mac:You're probably going to fight me on this.
Mac:But, you know, the mind.
Mac:The mind can only go so far, right?
Mac:And we've been talking about this, right?
Mac:What can the mind do?
Mac:I mean, how does the mind come into the equation is certainly part of it, right?
Mac:What do you.
Mac:I mean, what do you guys been talking about when it comes to the mind, right?
Mac:What, you know, what are we thinking about?
The Rev:So is the intention and the purpose we talked about and the mindfulness earlier.
The Rev:Just to get you to the edge, you got to eventually let it go, right.
The Rev:And put it down.
The Rev:I'm reminded of St.
The Rev:Paul, who said something.
The Rev:I believe in First Corinthians that spiritual things must be spiritually discerned.
The Rev:If you want to find the spiritual, you're not going to get there through your mind.
The Rev:You're going to get there through.
The Rev:Through the spirit, right?
The Rev:So that means, I think that starts with the how to do it is get comfortable with your own spirit.
The Rev:Have any kind of practice that points you in the direction of the spirit and get you out of your mind for a while.
Mac:Right, right, right.
Stu:Wow, that's a tough thing to do.
Stu:I mean, have you ever tried just.
Stu:Just to sit in silence?
Mac:Yes.
Stu:And when things come into your mind, say, okay, thank you, move on.
Stu:And, I mean, I feel like the whole time that's all I'm doing is telling these thoughts to move on, move on, move on.
Stu:I mean, there may be a moment where I get a second of, okay, nothing was there, right?
Stu:But then, boom, something's right back in there.
Mac:But that's the cool part.
Mac:That's why it's that way for everybody in the beginning, you know?
Mac:But if you have a practice, there's where the mind comes in.
Mac:I'm going to go do this right?
Mac:I'm going to go to my thin place.
Mac:I'm going to go to the silence.
Mac:And then, yes, my monkey brain might only quiet for two seconds.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:You know, I heard this one time, and they were in a seminar and talking about contemplative prayer, because that's kind of what we're talking about here.
Mac:Getting yourself into a place, you know, that.
Mac:That you can go to contemplation without your brain, you know, messing with you.
Mac:And so this guy was given a seminar, I think it was Thomas Merton.
Mac:He was given the talk on this.
Mac:And this woman came up to.
Mac:And she said, father, you know, I try this whole thing this What Stu was saying, I try this whole thing and my mind goes to a thousand different places all the time.
Mac:And here's what he said.
Mac:I thought this was so cool.
Mac:He looked back at her and said, fantastic.
Mac:You get a thousand opportunities to turn your heart and your mind back toward God.
Stu:Oh, yeah.
Stu:Wow.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:I was like, oh my gosh, that's awesome.
Mac:I mean, it's a perspective on the whole thing.
Mac:Of course, that's part of the process.
Mac:But if you do it more and more and more, those moments get longer.
The Rev:You know, I'm reminded before I got into any meditation, I had no religious upbringing at all.
The Rev:But I would sit across in my grandparents yard, the railroad track was across the highway.
The Rev:And I would sit there and I'd count the cars, the railroad cars.
The Rev:And somebody just said, count the spaces between the cars.
The Rev:And I said, well, that's crazy, ridiculous.
The Rev:You can't do that.
The Rev:It's 10 times harder.
The Rev:And it is difficult.
The Rev:But I got as a kid, before I'd ever had any meditation to just be focusing on that second, that little blip on the train going by.
The Rev:And I found that I could find the spaces and begin to be present with the spaces and not count the cars.
The Rev:Now that took years and years and years.
The Rev:But as a kid, I didn't even know I was preparing myself for meditation.
Mac:Well, there it is.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:So I'm saying don't curse the one second where it was complete silence.
The Rev:And silence is not the absence of sound.
The Rev:It's not the absence of chaos or even thought.
The Rev:It's the awareness that the Father and I are one.
The Rev:That's where Jesus was pointing us.
Mac:I think that was.
Mac:That'll preach.
The Rev:I think.
Stu:So that's the rev's line.
The Rev:No, no, I do not take that.
The Rev:They're going to get stuck down here.
Stu:You can't take the Rev's line.
Stu:Come on, Max.
Stu:Well, you know when, when this has happened for me has been in my creative moments, like I'm fortunate to be a pretty creative person.
Stu:One way is, I don't even know if you guys know this about me, but I used to be a pretty good artist.
Stu:So I don't think you're drawing and such.
Stu:Yeah, but I'm a musician.
Stu:I mean, you guys know that.
Mac:Yeah.
Stu:And I've experienced a state where in both regards, like when I was doing art when I was younger, but especially with music, because I've done that a lot longer in my life where time just seemed to disappear, like it was just gone.
Stu:And I felt connected to something kind of beyond myself, you know, I don't even know if I can describe it any other way.
Stu:And that.
Stu:And that's amazing.
Stu:Now, trying to replicate that is, for me is a challenge because it.
Stu:When it happens, it just happens, you know, but it's amazing when it does.
Mac:Yeah, well, it's the word.
The Rev:Trying.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:What would Yoda say about that?
The Rev:You know, it's just letting, allowing and being.
The Rev:I found moments where not only time disappears.
The Rev:If I'm at the piano and I'm in the middle of a song that's just touching me, I disappear.
The Rev:And I think the reason a lot of us don't go there is we're living in that fear.
The Rev:I don't want to lose myself.
The Rev:But I tell you, when you lose yourself in music, it's transcendent and it's as holy as any sanctuary I've ever been in.
Stu:I'm just trying to give the Roguer some examples because that's amazing.
Stu:I mean, that's one.
Stu:One way.
Stu:But maybe not everybody's, you know, a musician or an artist or something like that, but another time that this has happened for me is when I've been speaking.
Stu:So anybody that's.
Stu:And I'm not just necessarily talking about speaking in front of, like, a big audience, but if I'm giving, like I'm a coach, right.
Stu:I gotta give.
Stu:I give speeches all the time.
Stu:It could be with an individual, could be with a few people.
Mac:Yeah.
Stu:And there are times where I've talked and I just.
Stu:I go to that place where time just seemed to disappear and I'm done and I walk away and I pull somebody that.
Stu:One of somebody that was there.
Stu:I said, hey, what did you say?
Mac:Because I don't.
Stu:I have no idea.
Stu:It was like, that's one of those moments that's.
Stu:That's like one of those thin places.
Mac:Well, that's just gonna say that was a thin place.
Stu:That's a thin place right there.
Stu:So I'm.
Stu:I point that out because I think people out there, I think everyone that's listening has this happen, but they didn't know that's what it was called.
Stu:That's what it is.
The Rev:When that happens, I say, return to the mountain.
The Rev:That moment in time, that place you went, that experience you had where you knew peace beyond anything, that it surpassed all understanding or a joy.
The Rev:Go back to that place.
The Rev:Not only externally, but go to that place within you, because it's there.
The Rev:It's still in you.
Mac:Sure.
The Rev:And spend some time there.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:And it may be a few seconds, but a few seconds becomes 10 seconds becomes a minute.
Mac:Well, exactly.
Mac:And you.
Mac:You enjoy that development.
Mac:You know, Stu's the coach.
Mac:You start out day one.
Mac:The first session that you have, the first, you know, workout.
Mac:Everything else, it's way different than the one three months from then.
Mac:You know, I mean, there's a process involved, and you have to stay with it.
Mac:You have to be consistent.
Mac:You know, again, not necessarily.
Mac:I mean, but this might work.
Mac:You know, okay, for.
Mac:For 10 minutes a day, I'm going to do X.
Mac:Now, some people will diss that and say, well, that's legalist, and that's putting it on your thing.
Mac:And you know what, Whatever.
Mac:But it's got to be more than zero.
Mac:So whatever takes you to that place, do it.
Mac:All right?
Mac:Just.
Mac:Just do it.
Mac:Right?
Mac:What?
Mac:You know, we.
Mac:You know, we've talked about this before.
Mac:A guy taught this to me years and years and years ago.
Mac:One of my good friends, he says, listen to me.
Mac:You will do what you want to do.
Mac:And there was so much simplicity in that.
Mac:You know, I'm like, it's got to be more complicated than that, you know, but not really.
Mac:You know, I mean, you think about in your own life, if you've made a resolve to something, for the most part, you've done it.
Mac:I mean, you know, everybody's a little different.
Mac:But when you focus on it and set the intention for it and you're committed to it, whatever it is, chances are typically you did it or there's.
The Rev:A payoff for having not done it.
Mac:All right?
The Rev:Because not everybody.
The Rev:I don't know if I completely, totally agree.
The Rev:Yeah, I want.
The Rev:I use this analogy.
The Rev:There's three frogs sitting on a log, and they all want to jump in.
The Rev:They all are intending to jump in.
Mac:Intending to jump in.
The Rev:Well, exactly.
Mac:Okay.
The Rev:But there's no action to it.
The Rev:Two of them jump in, but the one is just sitting there intending, I want to do it, I want to do it.
The Rev:You don't really want to do it.
The Rev:There's a lot of people.
The Rev:You want to do it.
The Rev:You're saying, well, they're going to do it.
The Rev:Well, maybe you don't really want to do it for staying on the log.
Mac:Well, I mean, I'll go with that in the one sense, but I do think, too, that if the frog really wanted to do it.
The Rev:Yep.
Mac:He'd do it.
The Rev:And I'm saying, go surround yourself with people who really want to do it.
The Rev:That's how I find the.
The Rev:How to do it is to find people who are.
The Rev:Are doing it.
The Rev:Surround Yourself and create a community of people who are doing.
The Rev:How do you find that thin place?
The Rev:Interview them.
The Rev:Yeah, I want what you're having.
The Rev:Well, then ask about that.
Mac:Wow.
The Rev:And then go, can I spend some time with you?
The Rev:That's why I'm hanging around at this.
Mac:Table in spite of ourselves.
Mac:Right.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Okay.
Mac:Well, that's kind of how Stu and I started out.
Mac:Years and years and years ago, we just wanted to hang.
The Rev:And you guys don't stay on the log, you jump in.
Mac:Well, that's.
The Rev:I don't know if that made any sense.
Stu:If we're on the log, we're running on it.
Stu:So it's spinning and we're like, this is good.
Stu:This is fun.
Mac:Now we're going the opposite way.
Mac:Now we're going this way.
Mac:Yeah, there's been those times for sure.
Mac:So.
Stu:Well, the.
Stu:The thing I'm.
Stu:What I'm hearing is you need to pay attention.
Mac:Yeah.
Stu:To this.
Stu:What's going on around you.
Mac:I think that's like.
Stu:Think.
Stu:Let me give you a real world example that people do every single day.
Stu:I would say most people every day talk to somebody.
Stu:Right.
Stu:So you're in a conversation and the other person is talking, and what are you doing the whole time?
Stu:You're formulating what you're going to say.
Mac:What am I going to say next?
Stu:Yeah.
Stu:So you're not even really listening to them.
Stu:You're truly not present and not there.
Stu:You're thinking, okay, what am I going to say?
Stu:And, oh, I don't want to forget that.
Stu:And you're like putting.
Stu:I mean, right.
Stu:So like, to truly be present.
Stu:And I had to do this in a workshop once, sitting down, talking with somebody, not formulate what I was going to say and just really be there and listen to them.
Stu:So I challenge everyone to try to do this.
Mac:Sure.
The Rev:It's.
Stu:It's tough.
Mac:Yeah.
The Rev:But you.
Stu:You can do it.
Stu:You practice enough.
Stu:What do I talk about all the time?
Stu:You got to practice these things.
Mac:Well, that's right.
The Rev:That's a practice of mindfulness.
The Rev:But the definition of mindfulness is paying attention to what you're paying attention to.
The Rev:And that's a great way to practice.
Stu:And when you do it, you are in a thin place because you're present.
Mac:Yeah.
Mac:Well, I think that's a great lead in Rev.
The Rev:All right, well, we want to thank all the Roguers for tuning in here and spending some time in the playground here of us wise guys.
The Rev:And so our challenge to you is your ongoing mission, should you choose to accept it, is decide to go Rogue.
The Rev:Find like minded Roguers and strap on the armor.
The Rev:Storm the gates and unleash the unthinkable.
Mac:You just got me motivated, Rev.
Mac:I don't know about anybody else.
Mac:That's great.
Stu:Yeah, I'm ready to go.
The Rev:I'm trying to do that as well as you do it.
The Rev:I don't know.
The Rev:I was in my head, I wasn't a thin place.
Mac:I thought that was pretty good.
Mac:You got me all stoked up.
Mac:All right, so there we are, guys.
Mac:And Roguers, thanks so much for listening this week.
Mac:I've super enjoyed not only kind of putting this together and have each of us do our own thing and ponder it, but doing it together too, is just so good.
Mac:So thanks, guys.
Stu:You know why?
Stu:Because together is better.
Mac:Better.
Mac:There we are.
Mac:Drop the mic right there.
Mac:So again, thanks for listening.
Mac:This week we ask you to just tell all your friends about us and interact with us.
Mac:We'd love to hear from you.
Mac:As we just expand and we keep expanding and it keeps growing, which is fantastic.
Mac:So catch us next week.
Mac:We'll have some more goodies.
The Rev:Jump off the log.
The Rev:Come on in.
The Rev:The water's fine.
Mac:That's it.
Mac:Just make.
Mac:Not just think about it, but do it, do it.
Mac:So there we are.
Mac:All right, guys.
Stu:All right, we'll see you next time.
Mac:Take care.
Mac:All right, have a great week, everybody.
Mac:Bye.
Podcast Host:Wow, you made it and can now unbuckle.
Podcast Host:Thanks for listening to Thin Places, a conversation about going to the end between the real and the surreal.
Podcast Host:Remember to visit the website at Gorogue Life for lots of follow up information.
Podcast Host:See the show notes for any links to episode content and check out the Seeing Differently blog.
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Podcast Host:Be sure to tune in next week when Mac unleashes another unthinkable conversation.
Podcast Host:That is if you dare.
