Picking up where Side A left off, Tristan and Kyle discuss the mythology and significations of the asteroids Pallas and Vesta. If you have a question you would like to hear answered on the podcast, send us an email at astrologyhotlinepod@gmail.com.

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Do we want to move on to Pallas?

Yeah. So a bit about Pallas. Astronomically

Pallas kind of belongs to that category of protoplanet similar

to Ceres and Vesta. Though series is the only one that gets

that minor planet designation. It's still pretty big. I believe

it's the third largest object in the asteroid belt. It also has a

very eccentric orbit, highly inclined, so it's like way off

the ecliptic and has a similar eccentricity to Pluto. You know,

sometimes it's much closer to the Sun than other other times

in its orbit, which does seem to show up in Pallassignifications.

But we'll we'll get there. So Pallas is named after the

goddess, Pallas Athena, probably primarily known as just Athena.

So we'll probably end up using that kind of interchangeably.

But Pallas Athena was the daughter of Jupiter, or Zeus,

and is the goddess of strategic battle and wisdom. Also the

patron goddess of the city of Athens. So some versions of her

mythology and it's another thing to keep in mind is that there's

a lot of different stories about all these goddesses, but there

isn't really a game, there's a cannon, but you know, they all

kind of become irrelevant. Some versions of the story have

Pallas not having a mother, but just emerged from Zeus his head.

Others have story going that Zeus swallowed her mother Metis

is the goddess of counsel. I believe maybe trying to, like

misremembering but trying to cover up this affairs from from

Hera.

No way. Having an affair.

He's handful, but yeah, after swallowing her, you

know, he got this headache and some of the stories. Some of the

gods had to like split his head open with an axe to get her out.

But despite all that, also Theano which is the Theano

really least initially was Zeus is favorite child, you get a

bunch of them. And it's kind of where you get some of the

significations associated with Pallas of daddy's girls. So you

know where we get a Pallas Athena from just to name one

version of the story, Athena ended up killing her best friend

in a sparring match been sort of overcome with guilt. She took

the name in honor of her dead friend Pallas. Hence you get you

know, Pallas Athena or just Athena. Another version, though,

has Pallas has seen as father, interestingly, who had tried to

rape her and she killed him and took his skin and wore it as

like a cape, I think and took his name is kind of a part of

the trophy, you know, which, while maybe not a big part of

the sort of canon but you know, can't really say exists.

Generally. Pallas Athena is Zeus, his daughter, it does, you

know, seem to kind of play into some of the themes that show up

with Pallas, which you can get from other parts of the story,

but irrelevant nonetheless. Anyway, Zeus made Pallas Athena

along with his other son, Aries, god and goddess of war, like

they're just kind of in charge of war. Generally, a Pallas is

known to be responsible for some of the more I just the strategic

and sort of thinking components. The idea of like honorable war,

you know, gentleman's war, if you will.

It's more of a having a code. Yeah,

a code of ethics. With war. That's the thing with

Athena that really distinguishes her from Aries. Well, Aries is

you know, kind of just like Bloodlust mode, just kind of

rushed into battle and just kind of go into berserker mode and,

you know, slaughter everyone, Pallas, you know, come up with a

plan, have a strategy and she was distinctly not emotional

about her approach to really anything and for the most part,

she did have, you know, episodes of emotion, but that is kind of

one of the important components of her significations is that

sort of cold A tactical, unemotional approach to things.

But as a result though she actually repeatedly and only

defeated Aries in you know many of their little Spats like ended

up humiliating him on multiple occasions. There is a theme

there to have several stories. We'll cover all of them but

where she really just mean she ends up showing up a lot of the

other male gods. Then another important part of things is

mythology and actually significations is that she was a

big patron of a lot of heroes from mythology. like crap, who

was the one that killed Medusa, you remember

was that Perseus?

Percy sounds right.

Yes, Perseus?

Yeah, Perseus. Interesting. She has this

strange relationship with Perseus partly in that she is

kind of responsible for creating the monster that he ended up

being famous and mythology for. For killing that was Medusa.

Now, there's a lot of versions of this and you get kind of

different versions of Athena, depending on which version of

the story you go with. They all kind of become irrelevant. But

in one version, basically Pallaswas so pissed that let's

back up. Medusa was originally a priestess, and had you know

certain sacred vows to uphold, one of which was chastity and

believe it was Poseidon, who came down in rapes Medusa and,

as a result, Athena just kind of seeing, you know, that, like,

Oh, she had sex with somebody. So she broke her vow of

chastity, she needs to be punished. So she turned her into

a Gorgon, and eventually sponsored the hero that ended up

taking her out. And there's another version where Athena

turned Medusa into a Gorgon, to give her the power to protect

yourself against, you know, other others who tried to

assault her. So you kind of get mixed significations, they're

all of what, you know, potentially relevant. But so

some of the key themes that come up with Pallas central primarily

on women taking on traditionally male roles, but it seems also

men in traditionally female roles within outperforming men

and men feeling threatened by by women, but you also get women in

positions of authority, in some cases seeking approval of male

authority figures, unconsciously or consciously, you know, so get

the what can come up? It seems like as emasculation you know,

men being, you know, defeated by women in a sense, or what

ultimately seems to kind of play out is this sort of questioning

of what the actual roles of men and women are sort of

challenging them or merging and blending them? And drogyny seems

to come up a lot with Pallas as well as just kind of the idea of

redefining gender roles. And then of course, you know, you

got your your strategic thinking. Is there any other

significations? You want to mention? Tristan?

Yeah, the mythology of Athena is

interesting to me. In terms of defying gender norms or gender

roles, there's even a role reversal in the story of her

birth. Yeah, when you think about it, Zeus gives birth you

know, this patriarchal male sky god you know, the most masculine

possible God you could think of in this cultural context kind of

goes into labor and you know, in the story, he has this horrible

migraine and he needs one of the other gods to cleave his head

open with an axe in order to give birth to his daughter

that's an excellent so there's a role reversal even in that

story. But there's a her relationships with women with

other women in her mythology are very interesting. They're not

great. They there's the myth of a restless or restless is you

know, I won't tell the whole story from beginning to end

because it's quite long and detailed, but essentially

Orestis is put on trial for killing his own mother. And you

know that the the aren yeas the monstrous beings who will chase

after people who've broken the laws of fate who've broken sort

of the moral laws The Universe go after arrest us for killing

his mother. But he gets this trial. And it's actually Athena

who casts the deciding vote that arrest us is innocent. And the

argument in favor of his innocence, I can't remember who

delivers the argument originally. It's a it's a male

figure, who says, basically, the father is the only true parent

of a child that a woman is basically just a nurse, you

know, the, it's the father seed that creates the child. So the

woman is just like someone who takes care of it for a while,

but not actually, she doesn't actually have any rights over

the child. And Athena, you know that the vote is totally split.

And Athena hears this argument, and she says, Well, I was born

without a mother. So this logic holds true as far as I'm

concerned. And she casts a vote that arrest us is innocent, that

it's, it's not killing a parent, if he kills his own mother,

basically, which is, like a pretty upsetting sale, it's

a pretty big jump a bit of a stretch logically,

is, it is a huge stretch.

I think the takeaway that I sort of take

from that story, and others is that given the you know, very

patriarchal structure of Greek society, and even, you know,

Mount Olympus, they're pretty tolerant of Athena, you know,

taking on these these masculine male roles. And part of that, I

think, is that, you know, she is, um, you know, supporting

that she's supporting the patriarchy in a sense, you know,

yeah, she's not questioning those roles. She's really going

along with them, and really, least in most stories, kind of

part of that system, sort of getting into trouble.

Yeah, she's, she's kind of denying her own

femininity and upholding the patriarchy. Here's another one

of her famous myths is her weaving battle with a Rockne Oh,

yeah, that's a good one. At thena not only was she the

goddess of wisdom, and warfare, and the city of Athens, but she

was also a goddess of artisans and craftspeople, particularly

weaving. So AraC Nee, was an extremely skilled Weaver. And,

you know, thought that she was better even than Athena and they

end up you know, Athena gets really pissed off about that,

and they end up having kind of a weave off, where they both

create these beautiful tapestries. At the end of the

day, it does not end very well for acne. So it's just another

exam. turns her into a spider, right?

Yes, she ends up will Iraq. Iraqi originally

hangs herself, because she's so distraught over the results of

her interaction with Athena, and Athena actually takes some pity

on her and turns her into a spider. But nonetheless, it's

just like an every single tale. I mean, she was Athena was also

one of three goddesses who is involved in the story of the

beginning of the Trojan War, where the goddess of chaos

heiress throws she's not invited to a party basically. And in her

anger, she inscribes on a golden apple, something like you know,

for the most beautiful and throws the golden apple into the

party and Athena Aphrodite and Hera all fight over this apple

and then Paris the hero has to choose you know, between them

for some reason, I don't know all the details of the story,

but yeah, it's just like every single story where Athena is

involved with other women in some way she seems to be like

not in a very there I don't know maybe there are examples is she

there's the example of Pallas like that was her best friend

but she also killed her like it just never seems to end well for

women with encounters with

ya know, I'd like an aside thought I do kind of

like to think of Greek mythology is a little bit like a sitcom

sometimes because it's almost like not about the story itself.

It's about you know, putting the characters in the situation.

And, you know, learning something about the character or

the character learn something about themselves, you know, In

that situation, but yeah, you're right. It doesn't seem to end to

go well for, for women around her. So yeah, she does seem to

really kind of deny a lot of the the traditional feminine roles,

like motherhood as well. I mean, she was one of the Virgin

goddesses. I think there was one situation where story of where I

can't remember. Terrible. The nice asbestos was the Vestas

that.

Tried to Yeah, Festus tried to have his way

with her and she fought him off. Yeah,

she fought them off. It was kind of like, it's

really mixed some really pathetic. Yeah, it kind of, you

know, blow blows one on on her thigh. And she kind of like

brushes it off and with a rag drops it on the ground. And that

rag impregnates Gaia, right? The Earth, and birth this baby. This

kind of kind of half got it's like a demigod, baby. Right. And

it's not really her responsibility. I mean, it's not

hers. And even if it was, she might not think that, you know,

she, it's not actually her baby, if, nonetheless, she does take

responsibility for it. So there is like a highly principled

element to Athena's personality perspective and approach to

things. But not maternal, she puts the baby in a box, think

she can't remember she goes exactly. But she basically is

like, alright, and leaving this box here. There's a snake in

there who's gonna, you know, nurture, protect this, this

baby, the snakes were very much associated with like wisdom. So

I mean, it kind of makes sense that she would have a snake

raise this baby and that sort of Greek mythology logic sort of

way. But I guess there were some women around that saw her leave

the box, and they hear a baby crying. And you know, these

women, even though Athena told them not to open the box, just

leave it. They end up opening the box. And depending on which

version of the story you hear, you know, they one way or the

other, they all end up dead, either eaten by the snake or,

you know,

it really never ends. Well, for women. Yes.

Stories.

Yeah. And it's just like Athena, like, I don't have

time for this. You know, like, Yeah, I'll do you know, the

decent thing. I'll give you a box baby. I think she doesn't

like training. But when it gets older, it's just very, it's just

not maternal. The instinct isn't terribly maternal with with Pallas.

Yeah, it's more dutiful. It's like, well, how

Festus is not going to take responsibility for this, because

men in this culture do not. So, you know, I would, I guess I'll

do something about it so that this baby doesn't just die, it's

really more of a sense of moral obligation than it is, you know,

an actual desire to nurture the child.

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's what I find

interesting about the whole story, or what, you know, it

makes me wonder what exactly it was. What it triggered, you

know, with the Greeks, like, what sort of things got brought

up? Because I mean, the, the Athenians, at least they named

their, their city after. And this is, you know, a level of

research I haven't gotten into, but I think generally, I mean,

you get, what maybe come from a modern perspective is, you know,

a woman who doesn't really recognize the distinction

between, you know, male and female roles, at least not as

far as they applied to her. That she, you know, in a sense, like,

oh, well, if men aren't responsible for nurturing and

doing this and that with babies, like, Why should I, you know,

just fair, I kind of find it, I don't know. Something about the

figure of Pallas Athena that really sort of forces, at least

maybe from the modern perspective, men to challenge

you know, their own kind of traditional role, like, Well,

hey, if I'm having this negative reaction to what she's doing,

maybe I should be, you know, be held to the same standard, you

know, as maybe holding women to you know,

did we want to maybe get into some examples

that you want to share your own personal example.

Yeah, so, Pallas is really the one that I would say,

is most responsible for selling me on asteroids, at least

initially, and I can see them so I have Pallas in an exact

conjunction with Mars in my chart. Within 10 minutes, it's

very tight one and for me, you know, Mars rules my my I tend in

my fifth houses, you know, it's pretty connected to my chart,

either by aspect or rulership. But I found some of the

symbolism they're really hard to ignore, especially when, you

know, while I can maybe see some of the themes more broadly, in

my chart, the Pallas element really seemed to add some

specificity. Like, for example, the one of the really, kind of

simple ones is that Mars rules, mites, the dispositor of my

moon, and moon being associated with the mother, and also rules

my 10th house, so that does traditionally get associated

with the mother, sometimes, not one that I always used to be

some connection there. But my mother was a lieutenant colonel

in the army, you know, another element of that, that shows up,

prominently, having Mars you know, ruling my fifth house,

just like the house of children is, you know, when my son was

first born, you know, his mom was going to college, and I

ended up taking on a lot of the Navy, traditionally, roles

traditionally prescribed to women, you know, or to mothers,

you know, we're getting a lot of Mr. Mom jokes at the time. And

not that that's uncommon at all these days. But, you know,

ruling my 10th I was a massage therapist for about 10 years.

And that is a traditionally it's more of a female dominated

industry. And even you know, what's astrology is probably,

you know, both the consumers and the practitioners of astrology

are probably a majority of women. My partner, Megan, she

has a palace, hanging out with her first house ruler. And while

you know, she may not necessarily recognize it, I

definitely see her as a very strong kind of palace type, you

know, kind of strong willed and a sort of woman who's not, you

know, afraid to stand up for herself. I would say that those

types of women have been a big part of my life. And, and I

guess I, you know, maybe seeing that conjunction, maybe made me

realize how much that's a very distinct part of my life that is

maybe not something that I tend to take for granted but

something that is maybe not the norm for most people.

Do you want to tell the story about shooting

your friend in the teeth? Because that was my favorite.

That was the clincher for me.

Yeah, when I was a kid I really loved playing

Airsoft, right and those little not quite BB guns, but you know,

you shoot and they hurt and you know, as long as you wear

goggles, you're probably fine. But on two occasions, I

accidentally shot two different friends front teeth out with the

airsoft gun, leaving giant gaping holes in the front of my

mouth. In both cases, the parents had to run them off to

you know, emergency dental I don't know I guess there's

emergency dentists but I remember they had to leave

immediately. And nobody ever wanted to play airsoft with me

again. And I also felt extremely guilty. Fortunately, I didn't

get you know, the worst case scenario that I didn't kill any

friends, but I did.

Didn't have to take on their names. Yeah, a

friend of yours in in honor of accidentally killing them with

airsoft guns.

Yeah, it also bears noting that Mars isn't an

overcoming square with a bunch of 11th House planets. Just kind

of adds adds to that.

Yep. Cena and Mars are literally overcoming

the planets in Kyle's 11th house which represent friendship.

Yeah, so

you know don't be afraid to be friends with me

though everybody

I haven't lost any teeth yet

yet. Played airsoft with me

this is part of the fun and excitement though

yeah that's that's the things I'm like Pallas you

know I went if you get a sparring match with me, just

goes just going full warrior mode and you might die that's

another big Pallas thing. And my god there's just so many I love

strategy games. strategy video games. I you know my dad House

for 1000 dad introduced me to them even went to some really

nerdy war game conventions. And I just I just love it. I love

strategy of chess, anything that has to do with outwitting your

opponent. It's great.

Yeah, this is my my delineation. Now, if you have

Mars conjunct Pallas Ruling Your fifth house, this is the way you

like to have fun.

It is. Yeah, and that's another part of it, too,

is just tell everybody all my personal secrets that Mars is in

my eighth house. And it's, you know, the eighth house is

traditionally called the idol place. And one way that, you

know, Mars conjunct Pallas in my eighth house is has maybe

manifested that signification is one way that I have maybe gotten

myself into trouble by not doing the things I'm supposed to do is

by playing you know, strategy video games instead. The problem

of mine for a while that I really had to I had to pry

myself away still, you know, if a really good game is coming

out, I can't even I like, like, I can't look at any previous for

it. Because I'm, you know, if I start playing that my

productivity is just gone for a good month. So yeah, let's, uh,

let's see the thing it's, you know, well, the Fix You know,

the the net everything they deliver is awful. You know, some

of its rather mundane or even fun, like, there's nothing wrong

with liking strategy, war games. Just you know, tending to overdo

it, which I think maybe a lot of people with Mars ruled fifth

houses might have to be careful of,

not me. I never do anything is exalted

Mars ruling. I think that's the thing with

exalted malefics is they're just no fun. You know, they're, you

know, having fun because

I was fun when I was younger, but it was very

much to my detriment. So I just I mean, that's that's the thing

with Mars is going from one extreme to the other. I was a

typical Mars ruled fifth house person and partied way too hard

and was just hell bent on self destruction. And then I the

pendulum swung to the opposite extreme. And now you know, I

have responsible fun. I have Mars, I have appropriately Mars

and Capricorn fun, but I had to explore the opposite extreme

first before that happened. And who knows, maybe it will swing

the other way.

Maybe? Yeah. Your midlife crisis or something?

Yeah, exactly. But maybe just a general lesson about Obama

Olympics. Is that Yeah, they just tend towards extremes. You

know, I similarly, you know, after becoming a parent

especially, really had to rein in some of those marginal fifth

house activities in order to be a responsible parent.

Should I maybe get into Pallas and Katharine

Hepburn's chart?

Yes, do

so, Katharine Hepburn, as I mentioned earlier,

had Scorpio rising. And she had the moon and Pallas conjunct in

Taurus, in her seventh house, opposing you know, Juno, who I

discussed earlier, and so, you know, again, we're sort of

fleshing out and giving more detail to what her relationships

were like, being someone who was very independent and very much

married to her work in a lot of ways. And, you know, Athena

being a virgin goddess, you know, being someone who, you

know, didn't answer to a husband. But I think, you know,

pal Pallas being conjunct the moon really came across in her

personality. She was known for being very spirited, and her the

characters that she played

to, yes, actually for time period. Yeah,

I mean, she was with she was born in 1907. Yeah.

She was very known for I mean, she was actively

involved in the, like, women's suffrage and stuff, right. Or

was it? Yeah, it was

her her mom. Both of her parents were very

progressive. And her mother would go to votes for women

demonstration. and Catherine would join her mom at those

demonstrations. The household really encouraged freedom of

speech and, you know, open debate on various topics. Her

parents were actually like they would get in some trouble in

their community for being so progressive. They caused a bit

of a stir. So, and she she was described as a tomboy as a

child. She actually had a male name for herself, she would call

herself Jimmy, and cut her hair short. And her dad taught all of

the children various athletic skills, swimming, running,

wrestling, all that kind of stuff. And he taught the kids

daddy's girl was she maybe a little I don't know, if she

stayed from what I've read. She remained close to both of her

parents throughout her life. But her, her dad taught the kids to

play golf, and that in particular, became one of

Katherine's early passions. At one point, she was taking daily

lessons, and she got so good that she reached the semi final

of the Connecticut Young Women's Golf Championship. She also she

really loves like swimming. And she used to take ice cold swims

every morning saying that the better the medicine, the better

it is for you. Which just really that really feels the thena to

me.

That is yeah. Sorry, thinking the she Ra.

familia de, I really need to watch that show.

female equivalent of he-man. Like recent reboot, I've seen a

couple episodes of it. And it's really good, but I haven't, I

haven't seen enough of it. My favorite there's this beautiful

image of Katharine Hepburn and one of her early roles,

literally dressed up in this like mythological Greek Amazon

garb. So like, literally looking like Athena says early roll was

a film called The Warriors husband. And this film tells the

story of the Amazons who possessed the sacred girdle of

Diana. And so in the society that's portrayed in this film,

women actually play the traditionally male role in their

society, where they have all the positions of political power,

and they're the Warriors. And it's the men who stay at home

and care for children and play sort of a subordinate role. So

the drama in this film is that, you know, Hercules steals the

girdle of Diana and that's when this role reversal happens. And

then men come to take on the positions of power in a society.

It's so fitting,

it's just too perfect. I don't know. It's,

it's kind of the moon ruling sort of fifth house, right? Or

is it her?

ninth house is cancer.

Yeah, that's right. I mean, she had some pretty

strong political beliefs too. As I recall, a lot of my thoughts

too are coming from the watch the movie The Aviator, Cate

Blanchett did a great job portraying Katharine Hepburn but

there's a scene where Howard Hughes is in meeting her family

for the first time and like they're just having this like

really impassioned like political discussion at the

table like very like liberal liberal the oriented one and the

Howard Hughes being more conservative like it's like

really gets like really upset about it but regardless, yeah,

but it's like Pallas is just having having our way with

Katharine Hepburn.

Yeah, there's so many of her roles exemplify this

archetype. There is i know i i spent budget today just looking

at clips of Katharine Hepburn in her various roles. And now I

feel like I need to go deeper into the rabbit hole and just

binge a whole bunch of Katharine Hepburn movies. There's one well

known movie she was in called Adam's rib, and she played a

defense attorney. And the person she was defending in this film

was a woman accused of shooting her cheating husband. And the

drama in the movie comes from the prosecuting lawyer actually

being the husband of Katharine Hepburn's character, so they end

up kind of on opposite sides of this legal battle about this

woman who has been accused of killing her husband for

infidelity. It's just it's very modern day Pallas. Yeah,

you know, I'm there to it. Like, well in the the

opposing the debate kind of, I don't know that's,

yeah, that's yeah, there's a lot I mean, all

three of other than series, although series is still, you

know, pretty close to jupiter in the ninth house and Katharine

Hepburn's chart, so it's not a non event in her chart but Juno,

and Pallas and Vesta are all very she has one asteroid

conjunct each of the big three in her chart. Yeah, so it's just

like all those goddess archetypes are really kind of

showing up through her body of work.

Yeah, yeah. It's nuts. Well, I have another

Pallas example. See a more sane Katharine Hepburn?

Oh, no, I think I think we've, we've covered her

pretty well. Yeah.

So, the example that I have here is Kesha. Kesha

has Pallas. Within the degree for conjunction with her

ascendant of technically, it's an out of sign conjunction

Pallas is at 29 degrees, 34 minutes, or sentence about 33

minutes. Sounds like a degree. But in the case of like an

angle, you know, you can definitely see planets, even if

they're out of sign conjunct the degree of the ascendant or the

midheaven her are one of the prominent angles, they're still

very, very visible. So with Kashia I'm glad you brought up

Pallas being also the God of craftsmanship. You know, being

highly skilled in your given craft, Kesha, actually very

skilled songwriter, she wrote over 200 songs for other

artists. Some of them hits, I think, a couple by for Britney

Spears, the names are escaping me. She also wrote or CO wrote

all the songs on her first two albums, one of her albums was called

warrior. So perfect.

And that's what's interesting, too, is, is that

Mars, you know, is not prominent in her chart, at least not

visible, super visible, it's in Taurus, it's in the sixth house.

But she does have a very Mars quality that comes out in her

performances, her sort of attitude. And it is very much,

you know, rebelling against a lot of traditional gender norms.

You know, I think one of the things I always sort of

appreciated about caches, or music videos and songs, it's

just very, um, she sort of takes on a male role in traditionally

male role in, you know, like, what, tick tock, which, you

know, was the longest running number one hit by a female

artist since 1971, back in 2009. And I just like waking up in the

morning feeling like P Diddy, you know, in the interview with

her, she said that, like, you know, I woke up in the morning

one day, and I was feeling like a pimp, you know, which, just

like that, I don't know, the traditional male role of being a

pimp or whatever, but just like feeling, you know, that

empowered kind of sense of, I can do what I want that, you

know, maybe traditionally was reserved for, for men. Her sort

of donning that and taking that and owning it and empowering you

know, other woman to feel that way too. And it be okay. Kashia

is also openly pansexual. But she's also served as a

officiator of many same sex and opposite sex marriages. She's

like, pretty outspoken advocate for marriage equality. And just

a side note, it's not Pallas thing. It's actually a serious

thing. She has series conjunct Uranus in her first house. And

one of the more challenging significations of series is

eating disorders. And she did struggle with bulimia for a

period of time. But maybe one of the more interesting and

complicated things that seem to show up for her is her belief

over a decade long public legal battle with Dr. Luke is her

producer. i It's such a complicated case that I don't

want to be kind of too much. Since we'd like the new dispute

is you know that Dr. Luke, Richard kinds of sexual

psychological abuse and really has been kind of using his

leverage, you know, from his powerful position to keep her

under contract and actually more recently, this is a big story

that I I'm not going to do justice, but I believe the

initial rape allegations were dropped by the courts. So it

became a countersuit where Dr. Luke counter sued her for

defamation and breach of contract, and then believe that

there's been a lot of counter suits involved between both of

them. And I think what I find interesting, most relevant is

this has been going on for a long time. At one point, Dr.

Luke, did try to make a deal with her like, hey, drop the

rape allegations, I will drop, you know, my breach of contract,

countersuit and everything. And she's like, No, I'd rather you

know, it's about like the principle it's about, you know,

getting justice. It's not about like, what's convenient for her.

She seemed like a very Athena mindset is that, you know, the,

that is why part partially why, you know, the Athenians chose

her as their their deities, the, you know, the Justice seeking

elements of, of Athena. Granted, she did have some, some nasty

revenge components, she could get riled up. But most part me

she tried to be, be fair. Nonetheless, you know, a lot of

this was going on during the metoo movement, and she did

receive, you know, like a ton of support from the artistic

community and the public at large. She seems like it

recently, Dr. Luke, have lost his suit, due to a new law that

is really trying to address

the way that you know, which rich white men are able to use

the system, the legal system to basically barrage people with

counter suits and legal technicalities, that keep them

from, you know, speaking out against them. And that has been

working to our advantage. And, you know, it doesn't look like

the, the final outcome of these legal battles are anywhere near

over. But, you know, does seem to have turned in her favor.

Over the last few years, you kind of get that theme of just

really challenging. Do the structural authority that the

men have, and recognizing that imbalance and seeking to rectify

that, you know, that shouldn't Right, right.

Damn right. I'm thinking about the way mythic

archetypes evolve over time, relative to the culture they

find themselves in. And as people start questioning, you

know, patriarchal norms and start fighting against systemic

discrimination against women and non binary people, and

basically, you know, people who are not straights, as men

who've, you know, dominated our social institutions for quite a

long time that the archetype of Athena sort of evolves alongside

that. I'm actually, personally a polytheist. And a question that

often gets asked, you know, of people who work with, you know,

some of these actual deities is, you know, how can you have a

relationship with a deity who's done these horrible things in

their stories? And that sort of idea of mythic literalism that

the stories of the gods are literally the deeds of the gods?

I don't think that's necessarily how ancient people understood

their mess. And it's certainly not how I think most I mean, I

can't speak for all polytheists. But, you know, I don't meet many

polytheists to take the myths literally, it's more a case of,

you know, people have an experience of something that

seems sacred or divine, and they give it a name, but then they

have to refer back to their own culture in order to flesh out

what they've experienced. And so if they have this experience of

a Divine Sense of female authority, within an extremely

patriarchal, extremely misogynistic culture, you end up

with these kinds of stories where like, there's a bit of

conflict inherent in these in the classical Athena stories

where there's a kind of rejection of other women that

goes on in these stories. And I guess I'm, you know, looking at

Pallas in actual birth charts of, you know, modern people It

makes me kind of hopeful that that our experience of that

archetype is starting to change.

When you think of like how that archetype would

function in Greek society, yeah, which is very patriarchal and

male dominated, you know, how that archetype functions is, you

know, just taking on the some degree, the qualities of

patriarchal structure it's in, you know, in that being sort of

how she is able to exercise the power that she has, you know,

and even, yeah, Zeus, like, getting the validation from her

father, her only parent for doing that, you know, there's a

lot of motivation, therefore, for her to, to keep supporting

that system. And, you know, I can definitely see how that

theme can show up in people's charts as well. But like you

were saying, of the evolving cultural landscape, you know,

there's like versions of these lists that predate even the

Greeks and that, you know, we're very different depending on the

context, I think there are a lot of astrologers now who are

working with kind of pre patriarchal versions of the

myths, which is not something I know enough about to speak on.

But there's definitely a lot of nuance to, to the way these

archetypes can be used.

And it's like in, in an extremely patriarchal

system, you know, the only way for a woman to have power is to

align herself with that system and against other women, which

you see in the classical mythology around Athena, you

see, illustrated really clearly in the myth of ernestus. In that

trial, where, you know, she's, she says, you know, the, in, in

that myth, she says, You know, I'm on the side of male

supremacy, essentially. Yeah. And then, you know, you see

figures like Katharine Hepburn, or like Kesha, who are not

necessarily aligning themselves with, you know, the dominant

male institution in order to have power, they're claiming it

for themselves. Yeah, so that's a big shift away from, you know,

the only way I can have power is to, you know, kind of side with

the patriarchy versus no, I'm going to claim my own power,

which is, you know, my birthright to have this power

and to have agency and it is over and against the patriarchy

instead of siding with it.

Well, I think that's, that's a really good

point, because so much of the Athena archetype is just the

word like entitlement gets, you know, has like negative

connotations into it, but like, that was just the theme of from

the start, like that was who Athena was, you know,

she was born a warrior clad fully clad in

armor, she emerged she was had wielding a spear. Let me groans

just Yeah, powerful right from the get go.

But I think, yeah, with like, you know, catch up,

one of the things so attractive about her is that, yeah, she

does have that, like, she exudes that, like I'm entitled to this

power, like, it's not up for debate, or to be questioned. It

just is. And I think that's part of what the archetype is about.

Should we move on to Vesta?

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

All right. I will start with some

astronomical notes on Vesta, which is the brightest asteroid

visible from Earth, it can at times be faintly visible to the

naked eye. Even though it's not the biggest of the asteroids,

it's extremely reflective, which is kind of neat, because Vesta

is the goddess of the hearth fire. So the brightness and

reflectiveness of the asteroid is symbolically relevant here.

There's another fun astronomical fact about Vesta. That makes it

unique. And I'm quoting from the Max Planck journal here. The

asteroid Vesta is unique. Unlike all other minor planets that

orbit the Sun within the main belt between the orbits of Mars

and Jupiter. Vesta has a differentiated inner structure.

A crust of cooled lava covers a rocky mantle and a core made of

iron and nickel, quite similar to the terrestrial planets

Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars. Scientists therefore believe

this Onion Lake asteroid to be a proto planet, a relict, a relic

from an early phase of planet formation more than four and a

half billion years ago. All other proto planets either

accumulated to form planets or broke apart due to via went to

collisions. And another shorter way of making this point, just

from Wikipedia is festa is the only known remaining rocky

protoplanet with a differentiated interior of the

kind that formed the terrestrial planets. So it's, it's a really

interesting piece of the history of our solar system.

I thought series and pilots were both proto

planets.

Maybe they are and it's just that they're not

different kinds. Yeah, they don't they don't have that

differentiated interior that makes them you know, the same

kind of protoplanet that formed the earth or mercury.

It's more like reading the differentiated

interior as being like, the main thing. But yeah, no,

yeah. I haven't, you know, really, that that's

okay. I haven't really figured out you know, how, what this

might symbolize if we're trying to draw some symbolism from the

astronomy, but, you know, any listeners are interested in what

that might mean? What sort of meaning we might attach to it.

There it is.

sort of thinking about how we'll get into maybe

getting ahead a little bit now. Vesta, the goddess doesn't

really have any images of her. Almost like, religion just kind

of represented as like an object like a like a torch. Yeah,

almost like a I don't know, like a disembodied planet.

Yeah, maybe. I think the cult of Vesta was the

last one, when Rome was Christianized to be totally

disbanded. So maybe there's a bit of last one standing kind of

symbolism there.

Oh, I didn't know that. And that makes sense.

And there is also a group have smaller

asteroids with a composition similar to Vesta that were

probably created from a huge impact. And they hang around in

the same area, and they are called Vesta, Boyd's. So I find

that very fitting since the festa. Yeah, has will not just

any call but has a dedicated group of people who are

constantly attending her flame at all times. The Vestal

virgins,

Vestal virgins. Yeah, that's, that's

interesting. I like that.

Yeah, I thought that was fun. So mythologically

Vesta, was the Roman goddess of the hearth, home and family. And

her Greek equivalent is Hestia, who is also a goddess of hearth

home and family. There isn't a lot of mythology around this

goddess and either one of these iterations. But the cult to

Vesta in ancient Rome is pretty fascinating. Like Kyle was

saying, the there wasn't really like a human sort of

personification for Vesta. She was mostly just symbolized by

her sacred fire, which, in the temple to Vesta was never

allowed to go out. So the Vestal virgins were tasked with

maintaining this sacred fire. And, you know, it was It was

symbolic of the whole state of Rome. Vesta was a virgin

Goddess. I believe in the Greek myth. Hestia refuses to marry

anybody. And interestingly, in Roman religion, she was given

the title of mother and she has some connection with

agriculture. So sort of an interesting paradox there of

like a virgin goddess, who is also referred to as mother.

Yeah.

Overlap with Cirrus a little bit.

Yeah, so the Vestal virgins were chosen when

they were children between the ages of six and 10 and taken

from their families to serve for a 30 year contract in the Temple

of Vesta. And their duties were tending the sacred fire, they

made more or less salsa, which was a salted flower that was

used to consecrate Roman sacrifices, like in public

sacrifices. So in a sense, the Vestal virgins were like the

state's housekeepers. They were serving this kind of domestic

role, but that role was for the entire state and not just for

one individual household. And it wasn't

like the fire went out like that was signal like

the doom of Rome or something.

Well, it signaled at the very least that

Vesta had abandoned Rome, which would be a bad thing. And if any

one of the vessels allowed the fire to go out, she was

punished. Yeah. Quite brutally. Yeah, it's like many things in

the ancient world, it was an interesting lifestyle. The

Vestal virgins had a lot of rights that other women did not

have in ancient Roman society, they were very, very, very

honored. When they became priestesses they were legally

emancipated from their Father's authority. And, you know, in

public places, they were given the right of way at public games

or performances, they had a place of honor that was reserved

for them. They did not need to take an oath, in order to give

evidence is customary for anyone giving evidence to swear an

oath. And in the case of the vessels, their word was just

trusted without question. They were entrusted with wills and

state documents. The penalty for injuring them was death. And

they could free condemned prisoners or slaves just by

touching them. If a person sentenced to death happen to see

a vessel on their way to being executed, they were

automatically pardoned. So they have this like, very unique and

sort of powerful position in society.

It's interesting to me that, you know, the leftover

being like the tenders of the attendees of the sacred fire,

attendees of this like sacred thing, which, you know, kind of

by proxy makes them sacred. But then, you know, anything that

sounds like anything they touch, or C, or, you know, anything

that like, interacts with them kind of become sacred as well.

You know, like, it makes me think of like signing an

autograph or something like, you know, somebody famous signs. A

basketball suddenly that basketball goes from, you know,

a $10 value to like a $10,000 value.

Yeah, the, when the 30 year contract was done,

the vessels were released from their duties, and they were

given permission to marry and they were very sought after. The

marriages were generally arranged with, you know, people

who were well to do and it was supposed to be very good fortune

to marry a former Vestal virgin. Another sort of interesting

fact, there are some, you know, along with this sort of paradox

of the goddess Vesta being at once a virgin, but also

associated, I guess, to some extent with fertility, if she

was being referred to with the title of mother, the Vestal

virgins, tended the cult of a sacred phallus that acted as a

token of the safety of Rome. So this sacred phallic image was

contained, I guess, in the temple. And they looked after

it. And they also hung in effigy of this sacred phallus on

underneath the chariot of chariot have a general to

protect him. So there's some weird, like there were a lot of

phallic amulets that were used as protective magic in ancient

Rome, but there is this interesting connection between

the Vestal virgins and that particular image. Which is

interesting, because, you know, when I was reading Dimitris book

on the asteroid goddesses, she talked about seeing clients who

had Vesta very prominent in their charts, and she was kind

of expecting them. You know, it'd be more not necessarily

celibate, but I guess, you know, leaning a little more that way.

And what she actually found were a lot of stories of exploring,

like, non traditional sexual relationships. So there's this

sort of, like, the whole issue of sexuality. And you know, the

whole spectrum of it, I think, is very much connected to the

Vesta, archetype and astrology.

Yeah. Like, almost like about it is just kind of

presenting this idea of sexuality and sacredness. And

you know, what? I know you think about just the myth, the rest of

the myth, but the Vestal virgins themselves, you know, they gave

up school in order to get the privileges, some of which, you

know, are just what were afforded to men in general, but

to get like extra privileges, sort of the price for

emancipation, you know, from being like subordinate to men

was getting up there. your sexuality,

yeah, like giving up any sort of intimacy

with men?

I mean, literally. Yeah. It's like, oh, well,

there's something weird about that. And it does seem to be a

recurring theme once like in society. I don't know, the the

idea that from the man's perspective, like, oh, once I

can't have sex with you anymore, now I can respect you and treat

you as an equal.

Yeah, that is something that you see, I mean,

it's still a problem in our culture now. And just to

specify, you know, what I meant earlier by non traditional

sexual relationships, what Dimitra said she noticed with

her clients was like, specifically non monogamy or,

you know, being intimate outside of a like, partnered

relationship. Which is interesting, because it's like,

there's still intimacy going on, but it's happening outside of,

you know, the traditional monogamous relationship with one

other person. Which is obviously not virginity, but it's still it

still kind of like, the virgins where the Vestal virgins were

exceptional, because they were not married, and they did not

have, you know, this sort of socially sanctioned sexual

relationship?

Yeah, something I would like to maybe to just

study Vesta more be to, like, see how, you know, a prominent

despot plays out in the context of like, what aspects it's

making with other planets? You know, I would imagine that the,

the other planets, even like just a sign base configuration,

is gonna maybe influence that planet, similar to the way it

would, you know, with the, the traditional planets.

I do have Vesta in the first house in my own

chart. And one of the areas of emphasis Dimitra, George puts on

Vesta in her in her work is devotion, having a devotional

spirituality, and that actually very much rings true for me.

I've been,

don't you do some of that, like tradition, that

devotional practice just a little, you know, devotional

practice to the

Goddess just a bit. I've been unusually

religious for my entire adult life. And there's no, I wasn't

raised particularly religious. And I tend to be pretty

skeptical. So it's just odd that I keep kind of getting pulled

into it. But I was actually, I worked in the church for about

three years. And I was pretty active in the church and the

years prior to that, and I have always had, you know, I

practiced some non traditional spirituality when I was younger,

as well like witchcraft and dabbled in paganism a bit. So

whether I was following a pagan or a Christian spiritual path, I

have always had an altar in my home. And you know, the center

of Vestas cult is the hearth is the domestic area of devotion

and sacrifice. I've I've never not had a space for that in my

home. And it has never not been sort of like the most important

part of my home, and an area of central focus, but like maybe

the most, and I do like, have a tendency towards very ecstatic

religious experiences, which Dimitra talks about in her book,

too, as being a very Vesta type signification. To the point

that, at one point in my life, maybe, and I guess, like four

years ago, something like that. I was dating someone. That

wasn't really serious yet. But I sat at my altar to pray one

night and ended up having an ecstatic religious experience.

And after having that experience, I just didn't, I did

not want to be in a relationship. I just wanted to

do my practice and to pray and I ended up leaving that

relationship. And there was a period of time where I seriously

considered like taking a vow of celibacy and just being like, I

don't I don't really feel like being in relationships at all.

Like, I'm good to just, I'm really getting my emotional and

spiritual needs met from my devotional practice. So it felt

kind of like a distraction. And like as a kid, I used to think

about, you know, joining a monastery and stuff like that.

Ultimately, that did not end up being the path I took. But it's

kind of interesting that I've got vest in the first first

house. And that was at least a serious consideration at some

point in my life, which is maybe odd. Like, I don't think a lot

of people seriously consider watching that particular path.

Alright, I think that you're the best example is

Believe me, one of the ones that sold me on Vesta was the one

that sold me on Vesta. Because, you know, we do have very

similar charts, not that they're exactly the same. But like, I

invested in some of the second house, it's like the one

asteroid, it's not really doing anything. It's, you know, my one

little bit of fire, which seems appropriate, but I want to keep

it tucked away in my session. But that's something that like,

yeah, I have no, I've never been, I just have the cynical

part. I do not have any any devotional practice elements.

But I know you're saying kind of makes me think about you know,

the idea of, you know, taking time, which is not like an

uncommon practice for people, like take time out of a

relationship to like, find yourself again, right? Oh, yeah,

that's a good point. And thinking about, like, you know,

what? It's like, the price of intimacy is sort of down, it's

like, you're mixing your fire with someone else's, you know,

is it sacred anymore? Or, you know, or does it? I don't know,

like festive, like, brings up this question of asking you

like, what is your sacred space? You know, is that something

physical? Or is it something deeper?

Is that something that you would be

willing to share or potentially sacrifice in order to be in a

relationship with somebody else? Yeah, as there's a lot.

You maintain that in the context of

Yeah, exactly. Maintaining your own and I mean,

that's, that's also something Dimitra emphasizes in her

interpretation of Vesta is this kind of idea of being self

contained and independent? So you know, perhaps there's Vesta

might bring up some questions around that because when you are

in a relationship, what is yours becomes your partners and what

is your partner's becomes your as your life start to mix

together. And you know, you can still maintain some independence

in a relationship, but you become more interdependent and

the, you know, line are where I start and where my partner

begins, you know, that isn't always totally clear when your

lives are really meshed together. It's a another

asteroid that is prominent in the chart of Katharine Hepburn,

who is just just all the asteroids going on. In her

chart. Vesta was conjunct her son within a couple of degrees

in the seventh house. And I know there's been some, I've heard

some sort of like reinterpretations of the concept

of the Virgin as being sort of like a self contained woman or

like someone who is independent, essentially not controlled by a

man within a patriarchal society. You know, like the

Vestal virgins had this sort of unique position where they were

not being controlled by a husband or a father, the way

other women in their society were and they were granted a

certain amount of respect and power that other women also were

not. So yeah, there's there is that sort of like attempt to

maybe reinterpret that archetype as being you know, the the woman

who does not need a man who is independent, who's not

controlled by anyone but herself. And, you know,

Katharine Hepburn, as I've discussed at length was fiercely

independent, and I don't believe she ever had any children. Her

marriage was brief, you know, it's a lot of there's some

overlap between palace and Vesta, obviously, both of them

being virgin goddesses, and both of them being sort of like

uniquely positioned in their relationship to men. But even

though like they have that power, it's still very much

happening within a patriarchal context, in their mythology, and

in the cult of Vesta that happened in ancient Rome. So

that also, I guess, opens up the question of like, how do we work

with these archetypes now? Like, how do we kind of free those

archetypes from being under the thumb of the patriarchy?

Yeah, well, and that's, this makes don't like to

get to Hepburn. She stay married?

No, it was very brief. And then she, you know,

had a relationship, but was not married and, you know, still

maintained a fair amount of independence in that

relationship.

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, because it's like

maintaining, you know, like you said that they're women trying

to maintain that, that independence and I want to say

like dignity, or their their authority, or their, you know,

kind of prominence in the world. But in a, you know, male

dominated world, and how do you preserve that fire? Name, when

you look at the Vestal virgins who preserved that by by

becoming a virgin, you know, by, by not allowing men in your

sacred temple, if you will,

even in the case of the vessels? You know, they,

they were essentially abducted as children by the state, the

state took them away from their parents as children, and they

had no say, Yeah, but they're still still definitely under the

control of man. It's just that they're under the control of

more privileged men who have given them this unique religious

role that comes with a certain amount of power. But it doesn't

mean that you know, they're, they're in control of their

situation in any way.

So I don't know if you have more to say I'm

Katharine Hepburn but seems like a really good segue into my

example. It's here at sea of Mae West, which if you're not

familiar, very famous actress, like the 1920s 1930s into the

1940s. Mae West has Taurus rising with Vesta, exactly

conjunct her ascendant as well series within just a couple of

degrees, and then Venus ruling the ascendant in cancer,

applying pretty closely to Juno. So all those three very active

in her chart, Andrei, prominent Mae West, a bit of a more than a

bit of a sex symbol, huge sex symbol during that time period,

it's really known for its kind of like very scandalous,

scandalously sort of flouting sort of prescribed roles of

women of modesty. Right. She was an early gay rights activist and

women's liberation supporter, she was very outspoken about her

views. And she really kind of made her career. She'd like,

utilize the controversy, the controversy that she stirred up.

She said, I believe, in all things, she was known for her

her quips, you know, she's very clever. And her kind of body

double entendres, you know, just kind of like ooze sexuality. But

she said, I believe in censorship, I made a fortune out

of it. And one of the example of that, early on in a career in

the 1920s, she wrote, produced and directed, very risky,

commercially successful plays in New York on Broadway titles,

which include, you know, the drag the wicked age, pleasure,

man, and the constant sinner.

I love this.

Yeah, very, very religious. Very. Yeah, just

challenging, that that whole archetype, like very visibly

well, and

the whole relationship between religion

and sexuality is very relevant to her career, and very relevant

to the Vesta archetype. Well, and it's also

probably really relevant that Mae West had Mars

in Aquarius and her 10th house should be in in overcoming sign

base square with with Vesta and Ceres, so shaking things out.

Wow. Yeah, I mean, she's really challenging and rebelling

against that. Those ideas, because, well, here is how it

plays out. In so in response to a very commercially successful

play called Sex, just sex.

Get religiously? Yeah.

Local religious groups complained to the City

Council, and the theater was raided. She was arrested along

with the rest of the cast, and sentenced to 10 days in jail for

corrupting the morals of youth. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they offered

to you know, let her go by just paying a fine but she chose to

spend the 10 days in jail because she wanted to use the

Controversy to stir up publicity.

So just love that Torian stubbornness getting

it done?

Yeah, and but I don't know, something that I

sort of think about with Mae West specifically is mean she

was she was a sex symbol, she was like, almost like a sexual

goddess of the time, like there. You know, posters of her and a

lot of young men in the adult men's bedrooms. You know, she

almost in a sense kind of worshipped herself. There's

something about the devotional element that is almost like, she

becomes like, the receiver of the devotion.

Yeah, that's interesting. And I mean, that's

kind of true in the case of the Vestal virgins to where, I mean,

they weren't worshipped as gods or anything, but they were given

such special reverence by people in their society, because they

were so associated with the sacred and with, with everything

that was thought to hold society together. Yeah, you know, Mayor

was referenced for different reasons, but nonetheless, and

there's like, there's that referencing around sexuality to

where the Vestal virgins are sort of given reverence, because

they're nonsexual May is given reverence, because she is very

openly sexual.

Yeah. One, it's almost like she's kind of

saying, like, like, I can be sexual, you can be sexual, and

your fire isn't necessarily being compromised, you know,

maybe that's not the fire, maybe that's the fire that probably

what Mars and Aquarius would say is that, you know, the man is

having you having to believe in, you know, this is the real fires

is within you, you know, or something like that. And I don't

think she ever said that, but she was very comfortable, you

know, taking on that role and challenging, you know, in the

1920s, a society that would have been terrified of a woman like

her, but she, you know, they were also deeply drawn to her.

She was a huge celebrity.

And she's on my list of heroes already. I really

knew nothing about her before you.

Yeah, no, she's awesome. I didn't know what ton

about her either. But seeing the thing she also similar to

Katharine Hepburn, never had any children. Also, in she had some

complicated relationships, one of which, and then, I think one

of her main relationships actually, early on before her

professional career, you know, they broke off the romantic

relationship, but they stayed friends the rest of their lives.

They live in the same apartment building in to old age, like

actually had retired and I find interesting. By the end, jazz,

she divorced her all this controversy about you know,

whether or not she was married the first one, but she was

divorced in 40s. And stay single, until 1980s. Making EB

she died at the age of EB. He for something like that, in her

80s Good, healthy age.

I think Katharine Hepburn also remained

friends with her husband after their divorce, which, you know,

it's not uncommon, but it's certainly, I mean, it's one of

those things like, I tend to remain friends with most of my

exes. And I, I'm always shocked that there is still like, a

weird stigma around that. So I don't know how it was, you know,

for Katharine Hepburn or Mae West, you know, during that time

period, but, I mean, there certainly is like, people get

weird about it. If you're still friends with your ex, they're

always like, Are you sure that's healthy? And you know, people

are really skeptical about it. I don't know if that's connected

to the asteroid goddesses in terms of, you know,

unconventional relationships in any way. But

yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, convention would be that

you? I don't know. It's whose convention are we talking about?

But,

yeah, yeah, no, it's like, where does that come

from? Yeah, I guess that's the convention is you just don't

split up. And then I don't know where that idea comes from. I

just I know my own experiences that you know, I run into this

fairly often if I tell people I'm friends with exes. They're

like, Oh, is that? Is that okay? Like, are you sure? That's a

good idea? Isn't that weird for you?

Yeah, no, actually. Investor isn't particularly

prominent for me. But you know, my ex wife and I get along well,

good and healthy co parenting relationship. And a lot of

people think that that's, that's weird, like, Oh, you guys should

hate each other or whatever. But kind of making me think about

that stuff in the sense that you know, Audrey Hepburn and Mae

West kind of having that theme of staying friends with the ex.

It's almost like you're able to, like they were able to be

respected more when they weren't having sex with the person, you

know?

Yeah. Yeah, all of these, all these archetypes

really highlight the way. Women and femininity in general, are

defined by sexuality and relationships. And you don't We

don't have any virgin gods in our astrological Pantheon, were

noted for being, you know, unique or special in some way,

or particularly close to the Divine because they're virgins,

like, they're all. They're all doing whatever they please, on

that front, they're not really defined by their relationships

in the same way. You know, it's never Zeus is never introduced

as the husband of Hera. But Hera is most famously the wife of

Zeus.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What I really love

about the asteroids are starting to really love about them is

that even if they did nothing, but just like looking at them,

and just thinking about these concepts for both men and women,

like how do you relate to these themes?

I mean, this conversation and this research

is also really driving home for me as a non binary person, just

how incredibly heteronormative and says normative astrology

still is, like, we're still working with a set of symbols,

that it's very binary. You know, the, the symbols that we have in

astrology are given very binary gender assignments. And you

know, the stories, you know, especially in the case of the

asteroids, because they don't play the kind of role that the

traditional planets do, you know, those roles being more

based on how they participate in a system, you know, like they're

based in geometry and sign rulership and stuff like that,

you know, the only sort of interpretive resource that we

have for working with the asteroids is the mythology of

their namesake. And, yeah, yeah, so it's, I mean, I, you know, it

was really just introduced to the asteroids properly this

week. So, that's still something that's like, in an ongoing way,

you know, I'm trying to figure out, how do I fit into these

symbols? And how do I work to change these symbols in such a

way that they are more inclusive of different experiences that

are not, you know, says normative or heteronormative

experiences? Yeah, where do I see myself in all of this?

You know, whatever your relationship to gender, you

experience these, you know, archetypes, you're relating to

them. I think that a lot of maybe male privilege is not

really having to, or not having to recognize their relationship

to these themes and concepts. But you are, it's there, like in

and Astrology can be a really good way of drawing your

attention to those things. See, you know, for sure how you're

interacting with them,

man, it's like I have, I have no choice but to

grapple with this, because it's constantly on my radar. You

know, and that's part of privileges, just not having to

think about it, because you're the default. So, you know, that

doesn't really set off big alarm bells for you. Or you're not

sort of forced to think about these ideas day in and day out,

because they're directly affecting, you know, every

aspect of your life and making it more difficult or more

complicated.

Absolutely. I mean, I know I'm guilty of it some

green like, I would like to prefer almost like, Oh, my

inclination is like, Oh, well, the plants are just planets, and

they have these archetypes and like, I don't really want to

think about it is gendered but you know, yeah, they're all men.

They're all men. Like, I don't know if like, it's easy. It's

easy for me. Cuz I live in a culture where male is almost the

default

kind of gender. And we do at least have mercury.

Yeah, androgynous. Even even in traditional astrology, you know,

and all of the planets are given very binary gender assignments

of masculine or feminine, but mercury can be either one, maybe

that's why you find it.

Maybe that's why I read something about because

there's a debate in the astrological community or some

segment of it about whether or not desta rules Burdo. I don't

know. But I can see where maybe, maybe some of that's coming from

mercury. It's like the androgynous planet. Vesta has

this association with Have you stressed the goddess its

association with androgyny to some degree, which is called the

my kind of 20th century, like psychoanalysts, the archetypal

the the phallic mother, kind of like a desexualized mother, I

suppose the series who obviously had a baby, she had to have sex

to have the baby. But the almost puts that's done this sort of

different role that we do have, you know, like Mother Teresa, we

have these figures in No, Mother Teresa's birth chart. In Roman

mythology, or Roman society, Vesta had this association with

liminality. Like, the the space between things,

and she's sort of like the, or Janice, I don't

know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, it was the doorway.

She was the, I guess, the vestibule or whatever you would

call it like another one of the sort of transitional spaces

between one place and another.

Yeah. It's like brides couldn't step on the

threshold and step over the threshold.

Right? You don't want to invent

investor. Yeah,

that's the sacred space. She's the

threshold.

I mean, and there's obvious, you know, tie in to

female sexuality. But you know, being between male and female

being between one place, and another, often we have rituals

around these kind of transitions, you know, like a

wedding as the obvious example, like a bar mitzvah, you know, or

about mitzvah, or a graduation ceremony, you know, it's all

about kind of stepping over that threshold from one stage to the

next. You just don't like maybe lives in that space. That's her

space, you know, that, that in between spaces. Me her sacred

space that.

Yeah, and there's something it you know,

you can see why people want to give Virgo to her, because there

is that mercurial quality as well, that liminal quality that

we know is a component of mercury. Yeah, there's that

obvious one, but I mean, I when I think Ceres and Vesta are to

where people kind of associate them with Virgo. They say they

have some affinity with Virgo series being about the harvest,

and best obviously, being the Virgin. But I guess until now, I

hadn't really recognized that quality of liminality as well,

and being a deity about transitions and how similar that

is to mercury as well.

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's easier for me to give

like the sign, I don't know, give particular sign affinities

to the other ones.

Yeah, I haven't really been thinking about them

in terms of sign affinities all that much. I know Dimitra. In

her book, has a few signs, two or three signs that she

considers to have some affinity for the asteroids, but I'm too

traditional. I cannot untie the signs from the traditional

planets.

Oh, yeah. I mean, affinity is different than

rulership, too. But there is, yeah, my brain does tend to go a

little bit there and like, oh, yeah, which one? Which syncs can

squeeze the most juice out of one of these apps? Yeah, no. But

that's the, you know, maybe just want to say Scorpio to some

degree, but not, I don't know.

That came into my mind too. And then I was like

that she doesn't have the aggressive connotations that

Scorpio does, is still more defensive and protective or

defensive.

Yeah, like you will not cross.

That's true. That is true as like a guardian

of the threshold. Scorpio is a good sign. Like I am securing

this boundary and you are not getting past it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I hear like the queries thrown

around for Palace a lot. I'm like, like that one.

That one's interesting. Yeah, Palace is the

one where I'm like, there really isn't a sign that particularly

stands out as having an affinity, maybe Scorpio, again,

for that reason that Athena is more of a defensive war goddess,

not an offensive one. And she's more she tends to be none of

this is necessarily a Scorpio thing, but at least in the sense

that, you know, Scorpio is the nocturnal side of Mars and a

little bit less direct in terms of how it or less a little more

subtle in terms of how it influences or responds to crisis

and conflict. Athena was more known for supporting heroes in

their conflicts than fighting herself. Yeah, I think

she also took like a strategic approach when she

did fight. She tended to do better she didn't actually fight

as much as like Mars did, but didn't have like before to win?

Yeah, yeah, he was gonna win. And she would do it because she

had a plan, you know?

Yeah, she just doesn't fit like neatly into any

one of the signs really. There are a couple of resources that I

want to share in terms of learning more about the

asteroids. And I'll include links to both of these resources

in the show notes. The first one is just like a General Resource

on learning more about asteroids is the website of Empress

Atlantis. She is in Australia, astrologer who works really

intensively with the asteroids. And her website is just an

incredible resource. And just like, it's a library of more

resources, and more astrologers who work with the asteroids

that's just like really well organized. So if you're

interested in them, definitely check out her website. And

there's also a project called asteroids of the gods, which,

unfortunately, seems to be inactive. I think it's been

inactive for maybe close to a year now. But this projects,

blog is still up on Tumblr. And so there's, there's still this

whole archive of resources and interesting discussions about

the intersection between astrology and polytheism. And as

a pagan and a polytheist. About this might be worth mentioning

it, it basically, the project has instructions on looking up

any of the asteroids that have been named after deities from

different traditions on astro.com, if you're casting a

chart, so if you are a polytheist, and say, You're a

devotee of Dionysus, or Diana, or Oh, then there are asteroids

named after those deities, and you can look up their numbers

and pop them into your birth chart on astro.com. So people

were using that, you know, as a tool to think about their

relationships with their gods, you know, depending on what

house and sign it was in, you know, if there was sort of a

message there about that particular relationship or what

that relationship is asking of them. So anyway, check that out.

And if you want to know where other gods are in your birth

chart, there are a lot of them.

I really like that you're being bested for that

that project. Like found this fire, you know, and it's like,

oh, it's kind of going out. I want to be the keeper of this

fire. So yeah, everyone, please check this project. The what's

it called

again? Asteroids of the gods.

Asteroids of the gods. Yeah. You showed it to me.

does look really cool. And yeah, help Tristan, keep that fire

alive.

Yes. Yeah, there's a whole archive of

experiences that people have shared with their deities, and

you know, any insights that they gleaned from finding the

position of their asteroids in their birth chart so that's,

that's pretty cool. I really I that's my favorite stuff. I love

the lore but people's personal experiences with their deities

is my absolute favorite stuff to read about no yeah. And if it

also has to do with astrology, then you've just hit all of the

all the sweet spots for me.

Well, does that end are what would be the word for

this audiobook on the asteroids?

are epic adventure into the asteroids?

This was a an episode of mythic proportions.

Oh, you Tristan, I know have quite a few things to plug right

now. Right.

I think I think just the usual I think just my

actually, you know, I guess I have one additional thing. So

you can find me on Instagram, at bad sign astrology. If Instagram

is your thing. And if you are interested in booking a

consultation with me, there is a booking link on my website at

bad sign astrology.ca And I'll have links to those in the show

notes. And I have also started up a blog. So you can find me as

bad sign astrology on Tumblr. Or you can just read my blog on my

website and I have been writing articles about all the planets

where I go through through a few source texts, starting from the

second century and moving all the way up to the 20th century,

and you know, do a brief sort of comparison and then talk a bit

about how I interpret those planets in my own practice. So,

yeah, if you want to read those articles on the planets Thank

you. I'm right, I'm supposed to say and you know, now I just sit

here staring blankly at you, waiting for you to assert

yourself ask me what I want. No. No, actually, it's all about me.

I get a I almost feel like I have one less thing

to blood. Not that killer cosmos is dead. I just don't want to

say that a new episode is coming out. Too busy with with this

really awesome podcast I've been working on called the astrology

hotline. You might want to check it out. But also, if you want to

book a consultation with me, you can go to my website, Powell

Pierce astrology.com. And, you know, I got some stuff written

on there. You know, you can read that stuff.

You got some some pretty cool articles about

the lunations.

I mean, I don't have like the extensive, you

know, historical references and like, I feel like you, you cited

like, all your your stuff. So it's pretty

mean it's oppressive. And still not

exactly. Yeah. Well, I don't know if I call it comprehensive.

I didn't do it with great scholarly rigor. I mean, I wrote

an article a day for three days is kind of a challenge to

myself. Yeah, they're a little details, I guess. Like, how

trustworthy are the translations? I'm using, you

know, some of the, I think some of the texts from the medieval

Arabic tradition. We don't have the original Arabic texts for

all of them, I believe. I think some of them were. Some of the

sources we have are already translated into European

languages. So you know, I haven't done a deep dive into

all of that. But I at least, have looked over what

translations I do have, and shared what I thought was

interesting.

No, as a student of history, I liked the citations

and the historical, their citation. And I liked the

historical context for everything. Yeah,

I love that stuff. I'd like to thank Porter,

our listener this week, who sent in this fantastic question, and

sent us down this whole path this like rabbit hole of they

might have gotten more than they were expecting. And I got more

than I was expecting. And I think this is just the beginning

of a lengthy relationship with the asteroids for me.

Yeah, yeah, thank you, Porter, because I would

have probably gone on ignoring the asteroids for for a long

time, but I feel like I've been converted. I think I'm still

figuring it out. And still, I don't know if if they're going

to be showing up in consultations quite yet. But

they are definitely on my radar. For keep C's

Yep. For further research.

Well, we will sign off for to seeing you all next time.

Thanks for tuning in.

And actually see you. You have a question you

would like to hear answered on astrology hotline. Go ahead and

send us an email at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com