More than a decade after her husband was killed, Andrea’s daughter asked to meet the man responsible. That moment opened a door Andrea had spent years keeping closed, inviting her into a difficult journey of grief, forgiveness, and seeing the person she had made an “other” in a new way. What happens when we move toward the person at the center of our deepest pain?

Mending Divides is a production of Global Immersion.

Hosted by Jer Swigart

Produced by Andrew Brumme

Audio post-production by Great Feeling Studios

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Mending Divides_Episode 1_Andrea_V3 Approved for Publishing

The truth is, none of us were really taught how to navigate conflict well. That's why we're here. Each season, we wanna offer you something different than the scripts our culture hands us. Instead of the tools to win, we wanna offer the tools to heal. Because while conflict is inevitable, division doesn't have to be.

Now, this season is a little different. Rather than talking about conflict, we're bringing you true stories from leaders who found themselves in the middle of it.

After her story, Andrea and I will reflect together on what her journey might invite us to consider in our own lives. Here's Andrea.

About two weeks later, there was the arraignment in the court, and I went to that. An arraignment is a very strange thing in that you walk in and they sit on their side, you sit on your side, and I'm not even at the table. I'm behind the table because I'm nobody. But he knew who I was, and I knew who he was, and although we didn't look at each other, there was an awareness.

His mom stood behind him, and she was crying. And I remember saying to her, "You know, I know this is hard for you, too. I'm sorry that you're having to face this." We went our separate ways, and his trial happened, and he went to jail for just under a year. After the trial, I mean, how do you move on? I just kind of focused on, what do these kids need?

14 years after Chris died, my middle child, my daughter Courtney, she kind of pulled the rug out from under me. She came up to me while I was sitting on our front porch, and she sat down, and she just came right out with it. She just said, "Mom, I need to meet the man who killed daddy."

But in the meantime, we're gonna need you to be talking to a counselor and processing what this is all about, because there's more to this than just that." I had been trained as a counselor and as a spiritual director. My field, as it were, was children's bereavement. So as I was driving her to and from her therapy, I was giving her therapy.

Once we finally came to the point where I was thinking, "Yeah, this really needs to go forward," I contacted the restorative justice folks, and they agreed to begin the process of having a conversation with him. I had an internal battle. I had considered him, the man who hit Chris, an other. He was not a real person.

He was just this other person who just happened to be at the same place at the same time, and I had put him in a box and put him on the shelf, and I didn't have to deal with that anymore because that's over. She was asking to pull that out, and she was asking to poke around in something that I knew was gonna be very painful and difficult.

There was a deeper part of me that knew this is something I need to do as well.

He spent a year in jail. What did he learn there? How is he gonna be when he is with my kids? I think my biggest concern was my own emotional crumbling in the presence of this person who took my life. How to be in that part of the story and not have my kids be like, "Oh, Mom's unhinged. She can't help us or, or protect us or care for us because she's a [00:08:00] mess."

I began in earnest the preparation of all three of my children. I also brought in a colleague who they knew and they trusted, and she asked them the same questions that I was asking, but since it was a different voice, they answered more completely, more genuinely also. Then my colleague turned to me and said, "Well, what do you need to say?"

So I had some work to do there. The day that we met with this man arrived. It was this beautiful, sunny, blue sky day in the perfect temperature. We met in the basement of the church that I grew up in. It was the church where I was married to Chris. It was the church where Courtney was baptized, and it's where we had the funeral for Chris.

It seemed a fitting place to start the process of unearthing what was buried so long ago.

Like, just my heart was racing. My spiritual director saw him and just left us and walked over to him and shook his hand and shook his wife's hand. I watched this unfold and thought, "Wait, you're supposed to be on my side." And almost immediately I said, "This is not about being on a side." It took a little ego soothing for me to, to simmer down a little bit there, but it was a kind gesture. Once everybody was there, the circle keepers, the facilitators sat us in a particular order.

Do you have kids? Did you tell them about us? What was jail like? What was the food like? Natural questions, and yet also betrayed the part of their heart that needed to know that you think about me, you think about what you did to me. When he answered, he always answered honestly with just the right amount of information.

They need this. So this is what, what we're doing. By the time the afternoon session started, my kids ran out of questions, and the lead circle keeper spoke to the kids and said, "You children have asked so many good questions and have spoken really eloquently about what this means to you. And as you know, I've been in touch with you and with your mom these past few weeks, and she shared that her concern was for you and your safety in this [00:14:00] process.

I think she needs to hear from you that you'll be okay if she takes a moment to share about her telling her story."

They all said, you know, "I'll be fine. Do what you need to do and say what you need to say." My oldest said, "I concur." You know? She's just so proper. And that provided a little levity. She lightened the mood. The talking piece got to me, and I held it, and then I, I couldn't catch my breath, and I stood up and I said, "I have something to read, but I need to go to the bathroom first."

When I entered the room, I sat back down and I pulled out of my purse a document that I had written, five pages, that named the loss and the grief, and I just read it to him

I believe that that was possible because you looked me in the eyes in the courtroom that day and gave me the gift of a sincere apology. It really made a difference for me.

I've wondered about the forgiveness piece. Did I really forgive you all those years ago? Can it be forgiven? Is it mine to forgive? I go back and forth between my best self and my worst self. I've wondered, what good would it do for you to stay in jail? What good would it do for you to have a horrible life?

If you stay there, I can stay where I am. Meeting you challenges that. Meeting you requires me to face that forgiveness piece again, and gives me the chance to choose. The same thing? Something different? In the end, I've decided that it's not possible for me to forgive. It's only possible for me to desire to forgive, for my sake, for the sake of my children, and for your sake as well.[00:18:00]

When I was done reading it, I looked up and he had just imploded in himself. He was just bent over himself, and you could tell that he was really, really impacted by what I had said. The next day when we gathered again, I asked for a one-on-one conversation with this man. I asked him, "What did my letter mean to you?"

He was still the man who hit my husband. He didn't say anything that I didn't expect to hear, and so I was surprised by my last question to him, which was, "What is August 1st to you now?"

In that moment, I saw him as a real person who carried shame and blame, and that he was deeply impacted by this one moment where our two lives intersected. And honestly, he became just like me. We both had said things in the circle that were unsaid ever before, and it shifted the perspective I had of him and left me with this feeling of intimacy with him, which was really confusing for me because, you know, you expect to intimately share with someone who you trust and love and care about, and did I trust and love and care about him?

It was really challenging.

And this is in the past, and we need to move beyond it, so I hope you can forgive yourself, too." And I thought, "Wow, that is the purity of a child." She had such clarity, and it was just this pure gift of love. She was confident, and she looked him in the eye, and she offered him something that he was not asking for, but I'm sure made a difference for him, and that is the forgiveness. I had a lot of stirred up emotions and was questioning myself.

Like, all these years I named that I had forgiven him, but did I? Because, like, right now I'm sitting across from him and I don't know that I can say I forgave him. But forgiveness is not just a one-time thing. It's a decision that we make again and again and again. And we don't make it for the other person.

I thought, "Oh, yeah, I guess he has a name. He exists in real time with real feelings, and my kids are not gonna let me avoid it." Naming him as this other person or the man who hit him depersonalized him. It kept him in a box. It kept him separate, and me better than him. If you're seeking [00:24:00] justice and you wanna know what's fair and what's not, well, he did this, right?

So he should be blamed, he should feel bad, and he should remember this every day. But that's not the Jesus way, you know? That's not what Jesus would do. Jesus wouldn't use it as a weapon. He would recognize that both of us have hurts, and both of us need to heal. I would take Chris back in a heartbeat to not have this story be my story.

We don't define somebody by their one worst moment, 'cause that's really not fair. I don't wanna be described by my worst moment. I always describe myself by my best moment, right?

I'm [00:26:00] really curious about some of the pieces of the journey, and wondering if you can invite us into just thinking practically with us here

[00:26:08] Jer Swigart: ... about forgiveness. And so I'm thinking about folks who are carrying a wound that feels impossible to forgive.

[00:26:19] Jer Swigart: I think sometimes we're overwhelmed by the thought of the finish line.

[00:26:25] Jer Swigart: And that paralyzes us from even taking the first step toward forgiveness. And I think the way you tell your story is that it was literally a journey, and I wanna unpack some of those pieces with you here.

[00:26:39] Jer Swigart: Talk to we who are on forgiveness journeys, how do we not get intimidated by a finish line of forgiveness, but instead embrace the small steps toward it?

And from your experience, what were some of those smaller steps toward forgiveness that were most helpful for you?

So sort of a seeing it from the big picture for myself and for my kids. And then having a relationship with Jesus made me say, "Well, that has always informed my decisions. It's part and parcel of who I am." And so part of the answer was, what would Jesus do?

[00:27:53] Andrea: And from that perspective, the answer was clear to me that, well, Jesus would forgive.

It isn't like, "Okay, that's where I'm gonna end up." It was like, "Well, I have to be open to this because this is what Jesus would do." Mm-hmm. I have no idea how I'm gonna get there. I have no idea what it's gonna mean. I don't have any idea what it's gonna require of me, but this is what I want to do. This is who I want to be.

I'm 100% sure I was not able to do that all the time.

[00:29:11] Andrea: Mm-hmm ...

[00:29:14] Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Or I can imagine moments where things were just so unbelievably hard that resentment would start to close that openness down. I think that happens for all of us. How, in those moments especially, do we remain open to the possibility of forgiveness?

[00:30:12] Jer Swigart: Mm.

[00:30:41] Jer Swigart: Mm.

Put the gas in and just say, "This is my moment to choose that I'm forgiving." And I came to that awareness one time when I was driving down the road on a [00:31:00] two-lane road that was up and down and up and down and like a country road type thing. And I had just spoken to someone who had a miserable life because her husband died.

And she had five years of experience ahead of me, and I thought, "Oh, Lord, if that is my future, put me in the ditch right now. This is terrible." And as clear as I'm speaking now, I heard, "Bob." And I was like, "Bob? What does Bob mean?" And immediately right after that, "Bitter or better? You get to choose."

[00:31:43] Andrea: Bitter or better, you get to choose.

Andrea, that is so profound, which I think helps me understand a bit more that forgiveness... Again, I think sometimes we just think about a declaration, "I forgive you." There's a [00:32:00] moment rather than it being a process, and how a massive part of that process is self-awareness and choosing to see these small moments where resentment and bitterness would spike in you as an opportunity to do the work again.

I think some of us grow accustomed to the moments of bitterness, and even maybe feed on the chemicals that fill our body in those moments. Yeah. And to see the spike as an invitation-

[00:32:29] Jer Swigart: takes a remarkable amount of self-awareness. And I hear in your story the ways in which you were surrounded by community, whether it was your kiddos, it was your spiritual director.

[00:33:06] Andrea: Hmm

[00:33:13] Andrea: Well, I think first and foremost, forgiveness is not just about the two people or the two entities that are in conflict. Like, my lack of forgiveness impacted my children, it impacted my family, it, it impacted the people I work with, it impacted the people around me.

But those people were able to see some things that I couldn't see, could name some things that I didn't want to name. Things like, "Andrea, he's more than just that person who killed Chris. He's probably got a bigger life than that."

[00:34:31] Andrea: Or the affirmation of, "I know this is really hard, but you're doing a great job."

Things that try to dictate a person's process.

[00:35:15] Andrea: Boy, that, that is so unhelpful.

[00:35:31] Andrea: They sure did, didn't they?

That's cool. Oh, but how, how beautiful that they sat down and dumped ashes on each other, you know, and on myself, to just say, "Dude, I'm here with you."

So I think some of that even holds me back from taking an honest forgiveness journey. I wonder about the power of having a community of people who can just simply hold me in my incompleteness-

[00:36:17] Jer Swigart: my imperfection- Yes ... on that forgiveness journey. And also, what does it mean to be people who are companions with our friends and loved ones in particular on their forgiveness journeys, giving them permission.

But as I also hear you say, there was the moment where it clicked in for you, like, "Oh, this person has a name."

[00:36:38] Jer Swigart: This person has a story that has continued, might even have a family. And the question that you asked him about how he thinks about that particular day, and you learn from him that in fact he thinks it's not just that day.

[00:37:13] Andrea: Always am. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:18] Andrea: I wish I had done more of my own inner work before I sat down at the table or in the room. As much as I had done, it wasn't enough. Now, that being said, I don't know that I could have done it. His input, his feedback, his reactions, his statements, his demeanor, all of that moved me into a deeper place and helped me in that process.

the amount of time it takes to process is, y- you know, one second it took for the incident to happen, the, the collision to happen. One second. But the journey afterwards, phew.

[00:38:25] Andrea: It's, it's massive.

[00:38:27] Andrea: It's lifelong, and I keep learning from it, which is such a beautiful thing. You know, this has really deepened me and helped me to be a companion to others and helped me to listen better with compassion and think of, "I wonder what that person thinks," you know?

Instead of always thinking, "Well, it's not fair to me. Um, it's too hard for me." And in so many more ways that, that this has turned to g- to the good.

And not suggesting that you would have done anything differently, but this notion that we are in a moment in time doing the best that we can do with the tools that we have, and how do we look in the rear view mirror with generosity rather than regret or shame along the way? I wanna close with this question 'cause I'm really curious about even if it's possible to become the kinds of people who can offer extraordinary forgiveness before tragedy strikes.

[00:40:06] Andrea: Hmm. I, I can see both pathways, and so I, I wanna tell a little story about one of those people who companioned me.

You know, all the things that might make it uncomfortable. She just stood and bore witness, and I'm sure it was five or 10 minutes before I stood up and said, "Okay." And it's ... It is such a painful thing to let go of my ego and to walk the Jesus way. That sacrifice, and I put that in quotes. It's not really a sacrifice.

But it ... I, I can't see it taking it away, you know? You know, the trauma is the trauma.

[00:42:28] Andrea: And trauma happens in our world. We can't predict it.

[00:42:34] Andrea: Of course not. Yeah.

[00:42:43] Andrea: No ...

[00:42:48] Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm ...

[00:42:53] Andrea: Mm-hmm ...

[00:42:55] Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Um,

G- giving us some hope that, though painful, the journey itself is transforming us into more Jesus-looking reconcilers, wounded healers, as Henri Nouwen would say-

[00:43:26] Jer Swigart: in this world. So thank you, my friend.

[00:43:35] Jer Swigart: Thank you for joining us for Andrea's story. One of the things I'm discovering again and again is that every conflict invites us to become someone. It can make us more defensive, more fearful, more certain we're right, or it can slowly transform us into people who are capable of greater courage, compassion, and healing.

[00:44:16] Jen: I had just packed up my entire life a few months ago, moved everything I own, changed my house, my job, my community, and I might get fired. Everyone had a story they were telling themselves about me, and it was so hard for me. That story wasn't true.

This season is made possible by generous listeners who support Global Immersion's work. To learn more or become a monthly supporter, visit [00:45:00] globalimmerse.org/donate. Thanks for listening.