What does it mean that politics is generally downstream from culture? What exactly is "equality of opportunity" or "economies of scale" and why should we care?

This week philanthropist and consultant, Katherine Haley, dialogues about these important subjects and why they should matter to each of us.

To learn more from Katherine, visit www.oakrosegroup.com

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Host

You're listening to the No Great Areas podcast with Patrick McCullough. Today's guest is Kathleen Healy, consultant and founder of Oprah's group Catherine helps us answer an important question Why should we care?

Katherine Haley

Let's dove in.

Patrick McCalla

Catherine, welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. We met for the first time a couple of months ago. And as you know, I shared this with you. I started meeting with people six, seven, eight months ago. And I kept hearing, you've got to meet with Catherine, you got to meet with Catherine Yuendumu. Catherine and we met and I see why people said that.

Patrick McCalla

Such a great meeting. But for the audience to get to know you. What are you doing right now? You're. You have a consulting company, correct?

Katherine Haley

I do. Gosh. And first of all, thank you so much for this honor. It's a real pleasure just to be a part of the new gray areas that covered the topics you guys have covered are incredible. Yeah. So I moved home a year ago and born and raised in Arizona and I started a strategy consulting company called Oak Rose Group.

Katherine Haley

And our mission is to promote the policies, ideas and organizations that lead to human flourishing. So we work specifically in the education and workforce and upward mobility spaces. We support philanthropists in their charitable giving. We work with nonprofits that are trying to launch new initiatives in these particular spaces. And we also work in the policy realm so that individuals, whether it's in education, workforce training or other spaces, that the policy conditions allow for those things to thrive.

Katherine Haley

So it's been a wild year.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. When did you start that?

Katherine Haley

Officially launched it March 20, 21 and relaunched in September with four business partners. We have a senior and a junior associate that are part of our team and we're always looking to bring on new talent formally or inform early as we get to serve our clients across the country.

Patrick McCalla

Well, and you talked about you deal with policy, but if we back up a little further the reason you deal with that. Right. So exactly Before you came here, you were in D.C. area.

Katherine Haley

Yes. I had the honor to live in D.C. for over 20 years. At the very beginning, I did research. I thought I was called to be a doctor That didn't happen. But I found myself on Capitol Hill where I worked for 13 years, serving various members of Congress in the House and Senate. The vast majority of my time is in the House, and I worked on social policy initially on health care, eventually focusing on anti-poverty, education, workforce other other initiatives around religious freedom and such.

Katherine Haley

And the last seven were speaking, working for Speaker Boehner. Two years in the minority and five of the majority. So built coalitions, worked on education initiatives, labor and employment and other things. And it was an extraordinary season of my life. And then thought, what am I going to do? What comes next? And it got to work for a great organization called the Philanthropy Roundtable.

Katherine Haley

And we had the opportunity to serve philanthropists in their charitable giving of investing in communities and civil society and really bringing to life the policy that I had worked on, sort of breaking down those barriers. So kids in lots of different environments all across the country had opportunities to go to great schools. And then I came home. Yeah.

Katherine Haley

So it's been a welcome couple. Thank them all. Thanks. And this is your adoptive home?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Yeah, I'm originally from Montana, but we've been here for 16, 17 years. So this feels.

Katherine Haley

Like. Almost like a new.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, this is. Yeah, yeah. We call ourselves. Well, we don't, but I'm a Phoenician now. I know that because I was just in Washington last week. Washington State. Yeah. And I was freezing. I got.

Katherine Haley

Exactly.

Patrick McCalla

Degrees and I was. I felt like we should have Christmas music on and start doing Christmas.

Katherine Haley

Just that same year. A year ago, it was the second or third. I think it's second or third week. I'd been home the week. It was a high of 50 every day it was gray. It kind of rained and I was shivering the entire week. And I thought to myself, Can I put on a winter coat? And I didn't, but I did wear multiple layers and I think I may have gone out wearing gloves.

Katherine Haley

So anyway, yes.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. When it get stuff.

Katherine Haley

Like you get it.

Patrick McCalla

Totally well. And my wife is that way when it gets down to like 65 degrees, she always has her little gloves on for going out for a walk. And anybody visiting from out of state thinks that's hilarious. But I think there's some about the blood thinning or whatever that does.

Katherine Haley

I just didn't think it would have happened to me in like three weeks, but it did. Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Well, Catherine, one of the interesting things when you hear your background, your story, there's a theme through all of it, isn't there? And you actually use a word about human flourishing, and that seems to be a theme. What why is that something you spend almost your entire life in some different capacity working with?

Katherine Haley

Great question. You know, my faith is really important to me. I have a personal relationship with Christ that starts a long time ago. And I think really deep down, it was rooted in the sense of like we as as image bears of Christ, we have inherent dignity and worth. And so in my initial calling of me, being a doctor is when I wanted to care for patients, it was like you have inherent dignity and worth and therefore, using the gifts that I have, I want to care for you and bring you into wholeness and health and well-being.

Katherine Haley

But I didn't get to do that. Instead, I got to work on policy and was able to work on issues spanning not only our country, but impacting individuals around the world. And again, it sort of rooted in this, like, why should we care? We should care because you're a human being and you have inherent worth. And so therefore, the policies that we create or the mobilization of philanthropy that if we have that opportunity, should be about breaking those down, breaking down those barriers so that you can be who you are created to be.

Katherine Haley

Obviously, not everybody has a shared faith that I do, but that shouldn't. Yeah, that shouldn't be a hindrance to me. Like I should do everything that in my power so that you can really thrive. So, yeah, it's been it's been a journey that I haven't necessarily predicted for myself, but it's a journey that I've sort of held with open hands and like, OK, what's next and how can I use the relationship apps and the connections and the resources that I have so that individuals can be who they're created to be?

Patrick McCalla

Don't you think you just made a statement that I think is the older we get and the more we've traveled this journey of life, we see where you said, I wouldn't have predicted this journey for myself. Oh my.

Katherine Haley

Gosh.

Patrick McCalla

I think most of us as human beings, after we we live into our third or fourth decades of life. And we I think most of us are saying that we're like, I didn't really see this where I was going to be landing or going. But man, it's a great journey.

Katherine Haley

It is. You know, one year while I was on the Hill, I had a number of friends that were losing their jobs either because, you know, working in politics, your job is never guaranteed. And you don't know when your boss is going to retire and you don't know if they're going to be reelected or if they're just going to resign one day.

Katherine Haley

So is meeting with individuals who I had great regard and was like, tell me about your life journey and all of them. The thing that was so interesting for them is that they had a non-linear career. They had and their life was just sort of sort of like a family circus cartoon where they just sort of went here and they went over here and they went up and down and around and but through it, there was this theme, but they would have never predicted.

Katherine Haley

So when I looked to them, those individuals that I had the conversations with like, oh, right. Like, I need to be open to that because who knows? Who knows where God will take us tomorrow? Right.

Patrick McCalla

And that's part of this, the thrill and adventure of this journey.

Katherine Haley

Right? 100%.

Patrick McCalla

The journey of life, even if someone isn't a person of faith, but is people of faith, followers of Jesus, it's the part of the adventure following Jesus, too, of just saying yes to him today and not knowing where that's going to lead.

Katherine Haley

100%.

Patrick McCalla

Sponsor. Well, I want to come back to some of the things that you said, but before we do, I want to I want to admit something to you that's going to make you so happy. This year, during March Madness, I made my picks, and it was the first time in my life, you know who I picked the when the national championship Duke.

Patrick McCalla

Duke, Duke.

Katherine Haley

Thank you. Thank you. I mean, depressing for the Final Four, but yes, anyway.

Patrick McCalla

Well, the first time we met, I found out you were a huge Duke fan because you went there. I did experience that you would go to the games and and I admitted to you that I was almost an anti Duke fan. But you were Carolina fan. I had an annoying friend who was a Duke fan.

Katherine Haley

But you and my brother in law.

Patrick McCalla

Yes. So you deal with that all the time. Yeah, but this this year I'm going, how can I not? That is your first show. So it's such a. Yeah, yeah.

Katherine Haley

You're that weird. That's like a moment of grace. I feel like in your wisdom you're like, oh, yeah, maybe. And then your team kind of won anyway. Like, I mean, they beat Duke and the in a Final Four, and they did not beat Kansas in the finals. Obviously, but.

Patrick McCalla

I couldn't wait to get that to you. I almost sent you an email telling you that I'm like, I got to wait till she's just like that.

Katherine Haley

The joy is like, Yeah, really? Now, thank.

Patrick McCalla

You. For anybody listening who's not watching, you have a huge smile on your face right now. Totally. That an anti Duke fan picked Duke to win it all.

Katherine Haley

Thank you for your compassion.

Patrick McCalla

It has been an amazing story, though.

Katherine Haley

It would have been. It would have been so incredible. I mean.

Patrick McCalla

If there's a guy that deserved that, it would be Shizuka and you just I.

Katherine Haley

Agree. I think there are probably naysayers. And if this was like, why did we get lots of hate emojis right now and boos? But I mean, he is an extraordinary coach and believes so much in his players and his last home game, which unfortunately they did not win. But to see like, you know, I think it was in the hundreds of players and more.

Patrick McCalla

Players and.

Katherine Haley

Just like yeah, we're part of this family and he and his wife, they care so deeply so yeah. Yeah well thank you.

Patrick McCalla

Walk off the court holding on oh my gosh. Just like is.

Katherine Haley

Really.

Patrick McCalla

Sweet. They did the little video before as the final four as the as the tournament was starting and honoring him and I was sitting on the couch with tissues like, wow. Oh, my gosh. He's and I've cheered against him my whole life. So. All right. So the first time we met, I had my notebook open and you were you were saying some phrases that were so good, I was jotting them down.

Patrick McCalla

I knew I needed you to get you on the podcast at some point and just have you speak into some of those things that you mentioned in our SO in our first interview. So what I want to do is just name one of those things or one of those phrases and have you speak into it. You already mentioned a few of them, but I want to go back to that and touch, please.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, you talked about image bears. There were image bears. Unpack that a little bit. You shared a little bit, but let's go back to that.

Katherine Haley

Yeah. So I mean, again, so, so much of who I am is informed by my relationship with Christ. So if you go back to the very beginning, like God fashions Adam and then he fashions Eve out of his robe. And so there's this sense of like, I am like we are created in his image and which, as I said earlier, means that there's inherent dignity and worth.

Katherine Haley

Like if there's certain there's something in our DNA that is like, wow.

Patrick McCalla

And nothing else. Like when we read the early part of that narrative, nothing else is creating his image. Like it just right. I love the word, the phrase you're using the inherent dignity of humanity because we're creating the image of God. We will never laid eyes on another human that doesn't have that inherent dignity because they are creating the image of God.

Patrick McCalla

That's what you're saying.

Katherine Haley

Exactly. And so obviously individuals live their lives in different ways, but still we have that mark on who we are and and so as a result of that, you know, friends and family sometimes are like, you're too diplomatic at times. But I think it's out of respect of we might differ, we might have different backgrounds, we might have different life experiences, but you are still a human being and you still then therefore have dignity and worth and I need to respect that.

Katherine Haley

And if I don't, well, shame on me because then I'm not living into who God's called me to be so well.

Patrick McCalla

And I didn't miss what you said earlier. And for our listeners right now, you asked the question, why should I care? You're asking that about yourself. Right? But that's a great question. And yet, why should we care? Why should we care that there's poverty why should we care that there's whatever the injustice is? But what you were saying is when you begin to understand what that image bears and then inherent dignity mean, that's the answer to that.

Patrick McCalla

We should care about any of those injustices simply because we're creating the image of God.

Katherine Haley

Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

And you lived your life then around that, like you're you every role that you've had even though you didn't predict where you would be. Right, has been around dealing with those kind of issues.

Katherine Haley

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick McCalla

Well, another phrase that you used, you said the quality of opportunity. What did you mean by that?

Katherine Haley

Well, again, it goes back to this idea of breaking down barriers. So I'll give you an example in the context of education our traditional public education system is set up by your zip code and where you live geographically and you're assigned a particular school. And for some that means if you live in a under-resourced community, that means your school might not have lots of resources, which might mean your ability to attract great teachers or leaders or your ability to supplemental services or afterschool programing might be at risk.

Katherine Haley

Well, why why do kids have to go to their zoned school? Why can't they go to other schools that might be better suited to them? You know, individuals with means families might move to a specific community so they can have access to a school, or they might be able to supplement their child's education with tutors or send them to a private institution, et cetera.

Katherine Haley

Or y like equality of opportunity in that context is let's like get down to brass tacks and let all families have the same choices. If you're a family of means, you can certainly pay for it. But why not open those doors to those that don't have the financial means so that they, too, have equality of opportunity defined the best learning environment.

Patrick McCalla

When we met that first time, we were talking about how traveling abroad, especially going to a third world country, a developing country, will change you the entire perspective you look at. Right. And that's one of the things that you see with equality of opportunity that. Right. I remember the first time I took a group of students and they really wrestled as I did the first time I came back going, Why did I get to be born in this country?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, why did because I realized the opportunities I caught received in life simply because I was born in this country in what we might call a middle class, probably in my family, a lower middle class, but still good school help. Yeah, I got opportunities that many people in this world never will have because of that. And you're saying in our country or abroad, because of the inherent dignity, we should be trying to figure out, how do we give equal opportunities to people.

Katherine Haley

Exactly. Wow. Well, and the other like here's another example. An organization that my family and I have been involved with for a long time is called Opportunity International. I think you and I talked about it very briefly, and they provide microloans to entrepreneurs. And often these first loans are $250. They're typically paid back in three to four months.

Katherine Haley

Often the repayment rate is 98%, if not near 100. Many times they're women, but it's these little teeny businesses, whether it's making tortillas, or creating bags or selling yucca or potatoes or making these really interesting intricate crafts like by getting a loan, these individuals are able to buy more of the supply, create the product, sell the product, and then they are then able to invest it back into their community.

Katherine Haley

Well, wow. Like oftentimes those entrepreneurs through these loans, you know, opens this incredible door for the next generation and those that come behind. And so anyway, this idea of like equality of opportunity is just about we can certainly we can't always guarantee the outcomes of individuals choices in their life experience. But if you can break down those barriers so that individuals, regardless of their background, can access those things.

Katherine Haley

Oh my gosh. Yeah, like the world is their oyster.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Well, I don't want to miss what you said. I don't you know, I moved right past it, but even illustration that you gave or the analogies you gave about right now someone's born in a zip code, that's where they have to go to school in a lot of places. And we are giving them a more equal opportunity when they're giving giving them an opportunity which could totally transform a family's life.

Katherine Haley

Oh, my gosh.

Patrick McCalla

And that could have a generational impact, right?

Katherine Haley

Yes.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Yeah. But I love again, that's where I love that we started with the whole thing about image bears and inherent dignity, because the reason you fight for equality of opportunity, right? Is because we have the inherent dignity.

Katherine Haley

Absolutely.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Katherine Haley

Like, why just me? Why can't you? Whoever you like, whoever you are, why should just be for me? Let's break down those barriers so that you have that same opportunity to flourish. How we get there for as far as policy, of course, that's a different that might be in the nuance and sort of the nitty gritty. But I do want to break those barriers down so that individuals can flourish.

Patrick McCalla

Another phrase that you use was economies of scale oh.

Katherine Haley

Uh huh.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. Yeah. Explain that.

Katherine Haley

Oh, my goodness.

Patrick McCalla

People are seeing right now. Well, when I met you the first time, I'm like writing stuff down.

Katherine Haley

Katherine Haley

At the time, the public schools in Milwaukee were failing, particularly kids of color in a pretty extraordinary way. And so the local state legislature legislator first names Polly and her last name is Escaping Me. But she she's black woman and she advocated for more options for the kids in her community. So, you know, you have this the school choice program where kids of predominately black students were able to go to private school options.

Katherine Haley

It is in many ways changed the course of many families and the Milwaukee area. Since then, that policy has expanded. But this idea of like economies of scale is that like you had this great bright spot in Wisconsin and and a couple of years later, you had a state like Arizona that passed the Arizona Tax Credit Scholarship program and you had a state like Florida.

Katherine Haley

Well, now you have dozens of states across the country that are breaking down barriers to give more kids more opportunity. Same thing in the charter school space. Charter schools are public schools but they have the autonomy and independence to hire the teachers. They want the length of school day, the curriculum. They're held to a high bar, meaning they have to meet the state standards.

Katherine Haley

They have to meet their charter that that had been authorized so they could operate. But initially there was these lots of little bright spots. And people thought of charter schools as sort of like alternative strange schools. Yeah, but some of the charter schools in the country are the top performing in the country. And what I mean by economies of scale is this idea that you have some proof points, but then you can use philanthropy and policy to really pour almost like gasoline on them.

Katherine Haley

So they had the opportunity to serve so many more individuals.

Patrick McCalla

To scale that. So if you have a school that's reaching, maybe those that wouldn't have the same equal opportunity, but then you scale it simply by donations, helping whatever it might be.

Katherine Haley

Policy, philanthropy, 100%. Yeah. So it's idea of like you have these proof points, but then because you have these proof points, you can create the conditions to really hit, to grow exponentially. So that more individuals are able to benefit.

Patrick McCalla

OK, so this is totally off the subject for a moment, but I think it's an important question. How do you keep from getting discouraged in working with this for so long? Because even as you're unpacking this, it gets messy. You know, it's a pretty simple answer to why should I care? Well, if I'm a person of faith, because of their image bears inherent dignity, so I should get involved.

Patrick McCalla

But you start getting involved in any injustice and it gets messier and messier and there's layer after layer. I always say injustices are like an onion. There's layer after layer after layer. So you've been working with this for a while now. How do you keep from getting discouraged.

Katherine Haley

I think certainly my faith and time in prayer and sort of pleading and maybe sometimes crying, but then it's also meeting individuals and you get to know their stories and then you're sort of rejuvenated, oh, this is why I get to do what I get to do. Like COVID was unbelievably had an unbelievably disastrous impact on many kids around the country.

Katherine Haley

Yeah, so many kids didn't have an opportunity to go to school, which means they didn't have the social interaction. Sometimes the learning environments that they were in, they had to do it over Zoom or some other alternative to virtual, and it wasn't the right environment for them to thrive. Many of the gains that we had made over the last nearly 20 years were erased in two years, and which is incredibly discouraging.

Katherine Haley

Yeah, but at the same time, even here in Arizona, there's a woman named Norwood who is a dedicated community organizer, passionate about particularly black students having educational opportunity. She used COVID as an opportunity to create micro schools. So she is mobilized the moms in her that she knows and Phenix, and they are now leading these small micro schools.

Katherine Haley

And last week I had an opportunity to be at the Senate, the Arizona Senate Education Committee, and met a mom who who is like my daughter was in not being well served in her local school. But we learned about this and I've seen her come to life. And so I think meeting individuals and then seeing these bright spots, it's like, oh, absolutely.

Katherine Haley

We cannot turn her back we cannot stop and pivot to something else, because if if we do, well, then, oh, my gosh, shame on us for the next generation. But if we can redouble our efforts well, wow, maybe we can use this moment to leverage more policy changes or more innovation so that more families have choices in the places that they send their kids to school.

Patrick McCalla

Do you see as you're working with these issues, do you see that most people tend to care, or would you say it's the other way.

Katherine Haley

I mean, I think deep down people care. Absolutely. Sometimes how you get from point A to point B, individuals might differ on the the sort of the issues or the goals. Yeah, they might get we, my colleagues and I often talk about and individuals that we often work with that it's about the kid and not the system or it's about the family and not the system.

Katherine Haley

And I think sometimes, at least in the policy realm, we get stuck on the system and I know me personally, sometimes I get clouded by, you know, 20 years of experience focused on a particular topic and like, oh, we can't do this. And it's like, well, why not? Like, why can't we start from scratch and think outside the box?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, like so did like that mistake.

Katherine Haley

That mom did 100%.

Patrick McCalla

And sometimes those difficult situations like COVID, yeah, they inspire people to come up with new solutions.

Katherine Haley

Oh my gosh, yes. And we're sometimes like someone's innovation sort of hits the market at the right time and individuals are able to take that and explode. So yeah. So I think as far as like any sort of discouragement, I think there are moments of incredible disappointment and you have to sort of assess what role did I play and the disappointment, what do we need to change going forward?

Katherine Haley

And let's look for new opportunities. Yeah, so that so that kids and families can benefit.

Patrick McCalla

From new opportunities. That's a key word, right? Yeah. Well, here's another one that you said, a phrase that you said when we met months ago. Politics is downstream of culture. Yeah. You might remember when we met, I was like, wait, wait, wait. Share that. Unpack that a little bit, OK? Yeah, good.

Katherine Haley

I love that. So the quote is from Andrew Breitbart, who is like the bright, bright art news who has since passed away, but he's often credited with the coining of that phrase. But for me personally and others, I've read various things or people sort of disagree. But I do think that what we see in politics is a reflection of culture.

Katherine Haley

So the policies and the ideas that sort of infuse themselves into what individuals are debating often are informed by the people around them. Sometimes politics becomes a little upstream, throws gasoline on the culture, and then sort of your politics then show even more. But like just I don't want to be controversial, but the issue of life. Yeah. And you know, I think many in the seventies when Roe v Wade was decided that this would just be decided and it would go away.

Katherine Haley

Well, when you look over the last gosh, it's what, how many years? 50, 60 years.

Patrick McCalla

Almost 50 years.

Katherine Haley

When you look at that, this idea of culture, of life and, you know, medical technology and you have young people that recognize oh my gosh, my mom and my dad, they or my parents went through such great lengths to bring me into the world that there is this sort of like, oh, and wonder that the environment, even for those that, you know, might support abortion, for a particular up to a certain time in a pregnancy, there's still this like, oh, my gosh, this is a human being.

Katherine Haley

And so as a result, you've begun to see that reflected in the policies and the ideas that are at the state level and certainly at the federal level. Yeah. One thing that I hope like, given this particular debate, going back to this idea of human flourishing, is that policymakers begin to think about what then does, like if you care about life, what does it beget?

Katherine Haley

What does it look like? The very beginning through natural death and the policy and the sort of the family environment that come after it after birth. So but anyway, I think, you know, the tone and tenor that we see right now, like you see, I think we had talked about it a little bit in my earlier days on Capitol Hill.

Katherine Haley

There is always this respect and decorum and you didn't attack your fellow member or individuals within the executive branch. You would say, you know, the gentleman from Montana or the gentlewoman from Arizona, but there would be this we might disagree in substance.

Patrick McCalla

Called a gentleman. So thank you.

Katherine Haley

You're welcome. You can go say like I was called a gentleman on a podcast today. Yeah. But this idea, this like we might disagree on how to get from A to B, but at the end of the day, I respect you. I know that you're doing the good work for the people of Montana, the people of Arizona, and I'm trying to do the same for my constituency.

Katherine Haley

Now. It's like, I like death to you because we're on different sides or friend difference. And it's like it's catty. It's what you're.

Patrick McCalla

Saying. That's almost that's that's downstream from culture.

Katherine Haley

To reflect.

Patrick McCalla

That happens culture.

Katherine Haley

Oh, my gosh. You think of social media or the anonymous quotes on news articles and you're like, what like, would you ever say these things to your mother? Yes. I mean, I hope not. Or your child.

Patrick McCalla

It's a very unhealthy place because we don't, I mean, healthy dialog, but that goes back to, again, the very first thing you were unpacking. Inherent dignity. Exactly. If I believe in your inherent dignity, as a human being, we may completely disagree on this issue, but I'm still going to treat you with dignity.

Katherine Haley

Exactly.

Patrick McCalla

And you're saying when you were first working on the Hill, you saw that a little bit more but you've seen that shift.

Katherine Haley

Well, now having.

Patrick McCalla

That shift in our culture.

Katherine Haley

100%. And that goes back to like institutions. I think whether it's at our university or is within our churches and in places of worship that, you know, now we attack the other whoever the other might be. It might be someone within our tribe, you know, our faith tribe. But because they've taken a stance on X, well, now you are my enemy.

Katherine Haley

Even though we are both followers, of Christ. And it's like, whoa. Yeah. So anyway, I do think what we're seeing in sort of this political sphere is a reflection of sort of sort of this disease that we that is within our institutions and essentially within our culture. Well, so we have to change that.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, we do. We do, though. We absolutely do. So. But on that note, you're I mean, your life is inspiring and what you've done and how you've lived your life is inspiring. Let's see that we have some listeners that are listening and they're going, I heard the part where you said, Why should we care? I agree with that image bears.

Patrick McCalla

But but what do I do like for you? You spent your life, you've worked in the realms where you're having an impact. But, you know, let's say someone has what you might call for them a typical job or they're not doing this in their everyday job. How would you encourage them to get involved and.

Katherine Haley

In helping to change the culture?

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Katherine Haley

Well, like be friends with lots of people and and take time to listen to someone that doesn't share the same view of the world as you take time to ask the wise to. But literally listen like with your heart, with both ears, don't talk, but just like unpack where has that person come from and why do they care about the things that they do?

Katherine Haley

I have many friends who we disagree on many, many things, but I absolutely adore them because of like who God created them to be. Like they we might approach a policy issue or a community issue from a different place, but they are brilliant, smart, articulate individuals. And I'm like, Wow, you help make me a better person. Mm hmm.

Katherine Haley

I think similarly is, you know, just looking at the, you know, looking at it Paul and James and others in Scripture is that this sort of the Naomi's in the roofs and others is like, we need to reach back.

Patrick McCalla

Yes.

Katherine Haley

So certainly I had a conversation I was at a reunion with 13 friends of mine from college. Some of us had not seen each other in 25 years and we got to spend a long weekend together. And all of us are like, Ah, the reason why we were all together was because we were all part of the same fellowship group in college and a hearts cry for many that were there was that my children come to know the Lord and that they have a personal relationship with him.

Katherine Haley

And some of them are off to college and some of them were. They were concerned about the future of their kids. But one of my friends said had it not been for all of you in the light, the impact that you had. In my own faith journey, I wouldn't have the faith that I have today. And so it was just a great reminder.

Katherine Haley

Like, I personally don't have any children, so I'm not literally nurturing that next generation. But that means then that I have a responsibility of reaching back and investing in those that are coming behind, whether they're 30 years, 20 years, ten years or five and I have that responsibility. So for anybody that's out there like, Well, what can I do?

Katherine Haley

I don't work on policy, I'm not mobilizing philanthropy. I might be an accountant or a doctor or a lawyer or a painter or a gardener or a polls person or working in a pool. You have a responsibility to one listen and get and sort of broaden your network and recognize people have dignity and worth and there might be something for you to learn.

Katherine Haley

And then second, to sort of that bringing in that next generation.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, I love, love that advice. I think the danger for all of us is that we can start living in bubbles. Right? I've seen it in this in the faith world, in denominations, you know. Yeah. Denomination, you start and you never talk to anybody that believes anything different than you and and so I think we can do that all over the place.

Patrick McCalla

So I love that practical advice of just saying, you know, get outside of that bubble and really listen yeah. And treat them with dignity with that. So, so good.

Katherine Haley

And I need to do a better job. Like, I am not perfect in that area. So I'm like saying this. And then, I mean, I have to, like, remind myself that I need to do a better job of that, but.

Patrick McCalla

Well, then me too. I'm sitting here. Yeah, I'm starting to preach this too. And I'm yeah, me too. I mean, it's it's convicting a little bit to me to go, OK, when's the last time I've had a conversation? Who with someone who believes radically different than me. But we had a good dialog together because we, we, we respected each other, so that's great.

Patrick McCalla

Great advice. So how would someone who's listening if they wanted to know a little bit more about what you're doing the organization? Yeah. Helping to run. How would they get a hold of you?

Katherine Haley

You can go to our website. That's WW W Dot Oak Rose Group. Dot com, and you can learn about the work that we get to do. You can learn about my fellow colleagues and myself. We have our emails on there you can just learn about the different things that we do and then we're certainly also on LinkedIn. So a group, Rose Group, we are on LinkedIn and those would be two of the easiest ways.

Katherine Haley

We're on social media, but we don't really use it very much so but those would be pros.

Patrick McCalla

Group dot com. Yes, OK, good. All right. Well this is the fun part. OK, two truths in a lie. So audience has heard you for about half an hour. They've been inspired by you. They feel like they know you a little better. We've met before, so we'll see you give us two truths and a lie, which is I often introduce as ironic because we call this no gray areas.

Patrick McCalla

I'm going to ask you to lie a fun way for us to get to know you. So go ahead.

Katherine Haley

Katherine Haley

But it was extraordinary. The second true truth and a lie to truth in a lie is I've been to 25 countries around the world, several, a number of them in sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia, Europe, certainly over here. And the Americas. And then in fact, just two weeks ago I had to go, I got to go to Paris with some friends and we sort of looked at Paris through the eyes of locals and food, flowers and, and just it was great.

Katherine Haley

And then the last is I've run five marathons and three, 200 mile relays and with a group of people, my team that did the relays, we were called the Lemmings, which I thought was very funny. I had never I didn't know I was like, Yeah, that sounds like a great name. I did not know that Lemmings, their whole like mission is like, they follow this leader and they follow them usually off to the death.

Katherine Haley

Yeah. Jumping off the cliff. Anyway, I didn't realize I thought that was a great idea. And so I had to do some research so given that, what do you think is my life?

Patrick McCalla

Oh, man, who's those? You set those up pretty well. I think the middle one, the traveling, because I know when we talked, you do a lot of traveling. So is that a truth?

Katherine Haley

It's my life. Oh.

Patrick McCalla

No.

Katherine Haley

I've been I think it's about 32 countries, not 25.

Patrick McCalla

So you've been to more that. OK, you set me up good.

Katherine Haley

What they did.

Patrick McCalla

I was pretty sure that the first time we met, you talked about diving in the Red Sea because I'm a scuba diver as well. And I think we're kind of talking about diving, so I remembered that one. So. So you actually scuba dove with sharks? I did. In the Red Sea, which I've heard from people that have dove all over the world at the Red Sea was our favorite dove.

Katherine Haley

Oh, my gosh. I haven't done a lot of it in the last few decades or last. Probably 15 years. Yeah. But I had never seen color like that. You know, as you experience, color starts to wash out between 30 and 40 feet below the water. And we were seeing so much color in that 40 to 60 feet range.

Katherine Haley

And I mean a lot of wall diving. So you kind of go down and then you would turn around and all you would see was blue. It just was a little surreal.

Patrick McCalla

My first dove was on the wall was it?

Katherine Haley

Where did you get to go?

Patrick McCalla

It was in Alpha, Honduras. Roatan. Oh my God, same thing. But then I was down about 70, 80 feet or whatever, but it just drops down into the like you saw it like into an abyss. And you turn one way and you see all these colors and the sea fans and the corner.

Katherine Haley

Oh my gosh.

Patrick McCalla

You turn the other way and it's just dark.

Katherine Haley

And you're like.

Patrick McCalla

Wow, this is.

Katherine Haley

You feel.

Patrick McCalla

Small.

Katherine Haley

So.

Patrick McCalla

So you also ran a number of marathons. I was a lemming.

Katherine Haley

Well, I did. I ran and I did five marathons. So the Chicago Marine Corps three times and then the Miami and in a rain storm, I mean, my friend and I, she lived in Erie, Pennsylvania. She does live in Erie, Pennsylvania. And we're like, oh, my gosh, January Miami. It's going to be extraordinary.

Patrick McCalla

That was your rainstorm.

Katherine Haley

It poured it was like in the high forties, low fifties, rain was at 45 degrees. And we slogged through and then it was sunny. The next day.

Patrick McCalla

Of. Yeah, of course. Of course. Well, Catherine, thank you so much. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for what you do. And I hope people connect with your group and what you're doing and getting involved in. Thanks for the challenge, too. I'm going to take this challenge. Oh, make sure and listen. Listen.

Katherine Haley

Well, absolutely. Well, thank you, Pat. Thank you for all the work that you guys do at Operation Joy Foundation and no gray areas and your ability to reach out to so many individuals and provide them hope and the work that they get to do and the way that they impact their communities is really inspiring. So thank you.

Host

Thank you. Thanks for listening to the No Gray Areas podcast to dove deeper into the story. Be sure to subscribe. Follow us on social media and check out no gray areas dot com.