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Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, a health marketing strategist at Impella Communications, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today's episode sharing of ideas and the sharing of resources that we can drive the change that's really needed. And I also believe that we must ask ourselves as brand and marketing leaders, how can we better leverage collaboration and what more can we do? To push on this topic with me, I've invited someone who spent their entire 20 year career advancing collaboration within health care, and that someone is Frank Jaskolke, VP of Innovation at Medical Alley. In his role, Frank leads start up international and corporate innovation efforts to ensure the Medical Alley community is the epicenter of health innovation and care. It's crazy to me that Medical Alley just celebrated its 40th anniversary of advancing innovation in this industry, and Frank has been along for the ride for the past 20 years of that journey. Welcome, Frank, and thanks for being here.
Frank Jaskulke [:Thank you, Sara. It's a pleasure to be here.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. It's great to see you. I always enjoy our conversations. To start off with, Frank, what what is Medical Alley, and why does it exist? Give us just a brief explainer on Medical Alley.
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. Back in the eighties in Minnesota, we had a large computing industry here that evaporated. And for the listeners, if you've ever read the Innovator's Dilemma, it's literally about Minnesota's computing industry evaporating. In the wake of that, our medical device industry was supercharged. Earl Bakken went around, founder of Medtronic, hired a ton of engineers, grew faster, and he had a thought that if the computer industry could could collapse, that could happen to health care.
Sara Payne [:And
Frank Jaskulke [:so he and governor Purpich and a few others got together, started Medical Alley to make sure that this community would remain the disruptors and not the disrupted in health innovation. That's what we've worked on for 40 years. How do we position this industry, this community to be the best on earth?
Sara Payne [:And here we are. I mean, it is it is one of the best on earth. Right. I mean, we may be a little biased on that, Frank, but our listeners probably are too. So I think that helps.
Frank Jaskulke [:The progress has been good. Yeah.
Sara Payne [:Absolutely. I wanna dive into I wanna go right into the topic of connections and partnerships. What's your perspective on how marketing leaders can foster productive collaborations to accelerate their market growth?
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. You know, I think one of the first things that I always come to on on the marketing side of the world is that mindset of abundance versus scarcity. It it's sort of trite and overdone. We've all heard it. But I see far too often that brands and companies don't truly embrace it, and they're thinking about competition in a way that I would argue is is outdated. There's still competition, but your competitor today could be your partner tomorrow or maybe even an hour from now. And not enough organizations have that mindset of looking at the market more than just transactional or zero sum, but looking at how what they do contributes to the success of others and how what others do might contribute to their success. And when you when you come at things with that frame, I would argue you start to see opportunities in the market, ways of positioning your company, ways of developing new value that are far greater than what a company can do on its own or in more traditional manners where, you know, for you to win, your competitor has to lose.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. No. I I really love that thought, Frank, and and I think you're absolutely right on that. And I I wanna ask you, where do you think we're we're lacking, partnerships in the industry? What areas need more emphasis, to really drive effective change?
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. You know, I I think there's 2 big areas for health care. One is cross sector. So if you think of, like, payers, providers, and then technology device or drug or digital, whatever it might be, most of the time, those entities only interact when it's about a sale or a contract. The payer and the provider are negotiating often angrily over what rates are gonna be, or the device company is trying to get the hospital to buy one more product. And it is very much about the one entity trying to get their piece of the pie. And at the other end of it, you've got the patient who is dealing with complex issues. You have societal problems of health care is expensive, and we're all challenged by that.
Frank Jaskulke [:And I think as an industry, we are not enough thinking about how the actions of one part of health care impact the other parts of it and vice versa and learning from each other, gaining understanding of each other, and then using that knowledge to create new value offerings, to create new businesses, to create new ways of working together that aren't just, if I pay a higher rate as an insurance company, so you as the provider do better, then I've got to raise premiums and my customers are unhappy. The second area where I'd argue there's not enough partnerships or maybe not the right types of partnerships, has been leveraging the broader technology industry in the health care. So too often, we see technology companies, start ups, and established ones who don't understand health care, don't understand the nuance of it, maybe have that Silicon Valley mindset of, you know, move fast and break things. And they don't appreciate that in health care. If you break things, it might be someone's life.
Sara Payne [:Right.
Frank Jaskulke [:On the other side of it, you have a naturally conservative health care industry. Right? People are at risk. If something goes wrong, harm is significant. But we have underlying technology platforms or IT systems that are decades old, were built for a different purpose. Like, I know companies that still are using mainframes for some of their technology platforms. So I think the getting the technology industry to better understand the nuance of health care and the why that we have to sometimes move slow, and the health care industry better understanding what modern technologies, better wear can do to open up their businesses to make them more competitive and and more patient centric. I think that has been a missed opportunity of 2 sectors 2 large sectors of our economy that speak different languages and sometimes are not humble and empathetic with each other, and that results in conflict.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. Have you seen some specific examples where it's it's going really well or or some shining stars, if you will? Because one of the interesting things, I think, just for one second here, I one of the interesting things I think we've seen is we have we have seen a lot of big tech come into health care. Right? They see the opportunity, you know, and the growth potential there, but not everyone's having success. Right? So, you know, Amazon's failed venture of Haven, that folded with with JPMorgan, and, the 3rd partner I'm totally forgetting right now.
Frank Jaskulke [:Berkshire Hathaway.
Sara Payne [:Thank you. Berkshire Hathaway. And then the we've seen a lot with retail as well getting into the health sector and
Frank Jaskulke [:Walmart is pulling back.
Sara Payne [:Of Walmart pulling back. And so I'm just curious. Love the sentiment on, you know, more cross sector collaborations, more tech collaborations, but we've also seen some areas where it's failed. So do you have some examples where where we have some more promising examples?
Frank Jaskulke [:Indeed. And a comment on the failure first, but there definitely have been successes. I think Haven is a great example of when, the tech community doesn't have empathy or understanding. Fundamentally, what they were proposing is concepts in health insurance that, you know, our friends at the Blues or at UnitedHealth Group had done 20, 30 years ago.
Sara Payne [:Sure.
Frank Jaskulke [:Right? Like, those platforms were already out there when a group comes into health care and doesn't have that understanding of what's already been done or why maybe it didn't work in the past, you run into problems. Where it has worked is when they've married those two pieces together, an understanding of health care and modern technology platforms. And two examples I give, 1, startup company here in Minneapolis called Doxy. It's a an orthopedic surgeon who came out of Allina Health, had an idea for a digital physician preference card. Physician preference card, pretty basic thing. The docs and the nurses have on there a list of the supplies they're gonna need for the specific type of surgery. It's often a printout. It gets hand annotated.
Frank Jaskulke [:No one can read the handwriting. It doesn't get updated. There's a lot of inefficiencies, some risk of errors, but also a lot of wasted supply. Product comes into the OR, opened up, no longer sterile, but not used. Has a cost, doesn't add value. Doxy digitized it, put it on a mobile phone. It doesn't require something to be installed in the hospital IT system, so simple to implement, and then allows the doctor and the nurses to update the physician preference card and make it better for the current procedure, reduces waste, reduces variance in procedures, improves outcomes as a result, and really not complex technology, but applied to a real problem in health care by people who are in health care, who have empathy and understanding. The other one I'd point out, little bit newer company scaling well, a company called Trivalence, startup company also in Minneapolis, but operating nationally.
Frank Jaskulke [:They're bringing payment methodologies and payment processing technologies that have been used in other industries to the ambulatory surgical centers and the medical device manufacturers. So today, even the largest medical device manufacturers often are sending paper invoices to their customers in ambulatory surgical centers and getting a paper check back, there's huge amounts of room for error, for a check to get lost in the mail, for data to be missed, and it's expensive to process. Trivalence digitizes that, makes it easier for the right information to go back and forth, for payments to be reconciled, to be accurate, to get paid faster, and manage cash flow. The technology is not simple, but it's things that have been done in other industries, and this technology team paired up with a healthcare team and brought their combined knowledge to the problem. And that I think is really the secret sauce is the combined knowledge of tech and health care working arm in arm that's led to better successes.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. I think it is. Yeah. I think you're right. You're spot on with the combined knowledge. I think perhaps those failures underestimated to your earlier point. Right? How much legacy knowledge and foundation has already been built that really should be leveraged to then improve upon, then iterate on and and further disrupt with with and through technology. Wanna talk a little bit more about trends in the industry.
Sara Payne [:You know, marketing leaders need to keep trends in mind if they want their brands to stay relevant in the conversation, particularly as to think about themselves as thought leaders. What are some of the trends that you see shaping the the industry landscape over the next few years, Frank?
Frank Jaskulke [:A couple of them. 1, a a small one, sort of a a lighthearted one, but serious. Honestly, god has been linked in. The observation that executives at Fortune 5 100, at startups are increasingly active on LinkedIn to share content, to communicate with employees and customers that 5 years ago, I didn't see that type of activity, especially from the c suite. I mean, I always think of the episode of 30 Rock where Jack Donaghy says, I found him on LinkedIn. He might as well be dead. And that has so changed. And I if I think about a a b to b type audience, an industry where we're often b to b marketing, that as a channel, I think, is elevated in prominence over the last couple of years.
Frank Jaskulke [:2nd one, kind of related, but I'd say is digital in health care, and I mean digital health, not necessarily the digital marketing.
Sara Payne [:Sure.
Frank Jaskulke [:There is this mega shift happening where product companies are realizing they need to build and deliver services in health care, maybe wrapped around their products or paired with their products. And if you are a device or a drug company, that is a big challenge. You're used to selling physical widgets, and now you need to bring data analytics and other services into the mix. There are different kinds of product development processes. There are different regulatory processes. There are different sales and marketing processes, and that learning seems to be really, really hard. I've seen it go very well in some of the imaging companies. You think like a GE or a Philips where a core part of their business has been service contracts, they seem to be moving faster towards AI and digital than maybe the more traditional device companies.
Frank Jaskulke [:That'd be the second trend. And then the the third trend I'm starting to see more and more is open innovation, time to that original point of, like, having an abundance mindset that we have an industry in health care that is highly dependent on intellectual property and the protection of it, whether that's in device or in drug or in hospitals or in payers. More and more we're seeing companies where they are collaborating with universities, with startups, with other large companies, with financial institutions, with accelerators and incubators to get more creative in developing new solutions, especially when you think of, like, digital or other areas that might be newer to those sectors, where they're going out and finding who has that knowledge that they don't have that they can pair up with.
Sara Payne [:Great. No. Those are all really great points. And, on the LinkedIn side of things, you know, it's interesting you went there because I I'm planning to do an episode sort of all around sort of the explosion of of LinkedIn, and there's a whole health care community. That's right. Very rich conversation. And and I, LinkedIn side actually running that, because I've kinda got a question
Frank Jaskulke [:about the chicken or the
Sara Payne [:egg on that. Like, what happened first? Did they start to see data indicating that these executives were starting to become more active, and so then they leaned in their offering around that? Or did they start to adapt their offering, And then that's sort of what brought executives in. So, yeah, I I agree. I think there's a a tremendous richness there, And I think from a marketing perspective, definitely something to pay attention to if you're not already, you know, prioritizing that as a channel, definitely something to be considering, and the executive visibility component of that. Not just LinkedIn for your brand, but LinkedIn for your executives because to your point, they're there. Jack Donaghy was wrong.
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. I mean, I I will be excited to listen to that episode because it it really is different today than it was a few years ago. And you you can tell. I mean, this this is a little in the weeds on it. But when you go and look at some of the comments or the timing of things, sometimes you can tell when it's been, you know, it it's been the professionals. It might have been some of your team who have put together a message, but there's a lot of content on there where it's pretty darn clear they are writing it themselves. They are active on it, and that that's been an eye opening thing for me, the and the the opportunity it creates, like, for our company, for our brand, to tell our story and connect with influencers and partners and customers.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. And I think some of that, you know, we we saw explode during COVID too when there was just sort of a a a need for accurate information about what's happening in the industry. I think of Andy Slavitt and sort of what he did with his platform and his his personal brand to sort of be this this expert that people could really rely upon to get accurate, you know, very timely information. I had another, topic I wanted to to get your thoughts on, Frank. What about, preventive medicine or or functional medicine? Do you think we'll get to some meaningful work there as an industry? And I know you follow you're very active Medical Alley is very active on the policy side as well. I'm just curious if if the incentives will ever be there to to motivate more organizations to to focus in this area.
Frank Jaskulke [:Right. You said the keyword there, the incentives. Right?
Sara Payne [:Yeah.
Frank Jaskulke [:We all know prevention is the right thing. It's a good idea. All of us as individuals, as employers, as society with the best intentions. And then I don't know what you would for me. It's like I eat 1 potato chip. I'm eating a bag of potato chips.
Sara Payne [:You know? You know? Yes.
Frank Jaskulke [:And there there are lots and lots of companies who have tried to build a business around wellness and prevention, and they they often run into, like, 2 big challenges. 1, if they go for wellness, it's so broad that the impact is diffuse.
Sara Payne [:Yeah.
Frank Jaskulke [:Right? The best companies are able to show a small percentage change across the population, but only a big giant population in a little percentage. And then there are ones who they try to go more specific, specific disease or condition, and they're able to have impact, but it's very expensive, and we don't have the payment mechanisms in place to really cover that. I think that is changing. The slow march towards value based care
Sara Payne [:Yeah.
Frank Jaskulke [:Gets us closer, maybe not to, like, childhood prevention of heart failure when we're 60, but to investing more in the things that are, you know, like prediabetes, more near term preventable things, And over time, I do think we'll keep marching in the direction of more prevention, more wellness being covered by insurance, being incented through technology, through our workplace. But it it is fundamentally a really hard thing because it comes down to they've gotta get URI to change some behavior.
Sara Payne [:Yes.
Frank Jaskulke [:And as good as marketers are at doing that, it's hard. It's hard.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. Especially with whatever they're sprinkling on those potato chips.
Frank Jaskulke [:Exactly.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. I
Frank Jaskulke [:mean I think yeah. And our insurance company is not gonna beat out Doritos.
Sara Payne [:Right. Right. Yeah. And maybe maybe I'm an idealist, Frank, but I really do think well, okay. Pun intended on this, with the potato chip reference, but I really do think there's more appetite for a focus on preventive medicine than there has been in the past. But the the incentives just aren't as robust as they need to be, and so I think that's maybe where we need to see some more work to be done. But I do think as a population of people, we're becoming more educated, I think, on on the impacts. Right? We're starting to see research on, you know, the the different sort of lifestyle impacts of of different choices we make.
Sara Payne [:You know, I multiple times this year, there's been more things about processed foods, and the impact of that. So, yeah, I'm
Frank Jaskulke [:I'm hopeful. I think you're a 100% right about that. There it feels like there's a slow culture change happening that might create the the demand side to make more of the preventative and wellness type businesses work. The the one I think a lot about is, how alcohol consumption has changed in the US. Right? Yes. We've done all this work on getting healthier and food and everything, and the one that seems to have hit is drinking. But then I look at the flip side, all the work that we've done on smoking cessation for the last 40 years now that has made huge inroads in taking down smoking rates and talk about culture change, the way we now think about marijuana and how much that along with e cigarettes has led to an explosion in smoking again. Yeah.
Frank Jaskulke [:I I think it's a fascinating thing, and, really, it's a marketing thing of how culture has changed its view of these different activities and then the impact that may have on public health.
Sara Payne [:Yeah, absolutely. And I I do think going back to the responsibilities that we have as as marketers and and brand leaders, you know, putting emphasis on awareness campaigns can drive positive change Yeah. And and positive impact that will, you know, lead to greater adoption of, you know, whatever therapy, you know, intervention it is that that your organization, you know, is selling and and makes available in the marketplace. And so I do think we see a lot of of positive signs of that. But to your point, sometimes the pendulum swing swings in a different direction. Right? Because people might believe that the e cigarettes are somehow less dangerous. Right? And and and perhaps that's a step towards cessation. And then now here comes the study that says, turns out, those might be more addictive than nicotine.
Sara Payne [:Right? So, you know, it's it's the what we don't know piece of it that Right. That is interesting. And so, I think the science over time helps sort of prove out some of that the societal, shifts in behavior. Mhmm. I'm interested in your take on brand positioning in a competitive landscape. There are obviously many different players vying for attention in this industry. And and what's your take on how companies can really effectively differentiate their brands? And what role do you think innovation plays in helping sort of shape that brand positioning?
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. You know, 22 big thoughts. 1, there is I I feel like there is a lot of hesitancy on the part of established organizations to be innovative in their brand positioning, in their marketing, to they worry about rocking the boat or if things don't work. And short term, that probably works. Long term, it leaves them open to competitors. And we're seeing that all over health care right now where, organizations that have done well in the world as it existed for a long time were not able to respond when new entrants came to the market and didn't appreciate how rapidly the market could shift. Health care does not move fast, but it does move, and there are I would I won't name names, but I would argue there are organizations today who are waking up to their foundation has been eaten out by competitors that are picking off different pieces of the business, and now they're not as comparative. They're not as competitive as they once were.
Frank Jaskulke [:So I think that hesitancy to take risks is starting to come back to haunt a number of them. And then second, on the innovation side, there is so much more we know about what works and doesn't work in driving behavior change and driving adoption, but there are still so many organizations that are kinda doing the same thing they've always done. And I think digital technologies, whether we're talking LinkedIn or targeted advertising, there are so many things we can do now that make it easier to try new things at low cost and take risk that Mhmm. Aren't gonna sink the ship. I think there should be more adoption of those, but then this is the tension, somehow not over indexing on what you can measure because you run the risk of you know, you end up because you can measure it, you do it, and then you miss a great insight because it doesn't fit in the metrics. Rates.
Sara Payne [:Yes. I totally agree with both of those points. The the first one being, don't play it too safe. Right? Don't be so worried about pleasing everybody that then all of a sudden someone else comes in and starts, you know, really speaking the truths that need to be stated or, you know, whatever the the realness of the problem is, and everyone starts running at that. And then this, you know, don't be afraid to try something new. I did an entire episode around risk taking with Marsha Miller, whom I I know you know very well. Mhmm. And and that was just fantastic too.
Sara Payne [:She had some good insights around that. She's someone who's not afraid to take risk, but I think
Frank Jaskulke [:Right now.
Sara Payne [:I I did that because I think it's, I wanted to inspire some people are just gonna naturally be some people, some companies, some brands are gonna naturally be more inclined to take risk than others. But I think it's something we all have to look at. To your point, it's it's calculated risk. Right? It's it's an organization out there needs to look at their risk tolerance and sort of challenge that a little bit and say, are we being made perhaps maybe perhaps a little bit too conservative? Do we need to kind of really dial in, look at our mission? Look at it. Don't just do it to to do it. Look at our mission. Look at our purpose and what we stand for and dial in the right level of boldness. And then therefore, you know, it's not even really risk taking at that point if it's authentic to who you are.
Sara Payne [:Right. Right? And so part of what Marsha talked about in the episode is, like, repositioning risk in our minds is not really risk.
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. I mean, there is risk in inaction as much as there is inaction. And one of the techniques we've used over the years is we carve out, like, a a risk budget effectively, and we say, upfront, not deciding what we're gonna do or what we're gonna spend on, but we say, upfront, we are gonna carve out some chunk of our portfolio to take a risk, to try something that's not fully baked, then we go and figure out what risk we're gonna take. And in doing that, we get the organization on board with the idea of, affirmatively, we are taking risk. It's already been budgeted. Now we just gotta figure out what we're doing with it versus I often see companies where they're like, well, maybe we take this risk, and that just makes it easy for everyone to shoot arrows at it and go, here's all the reasons we shouldn't. No. 1st, get them on board with we're taking risk, then go and pick which risk.
Sara Payne [:I love that. I love that. Well, will you do a do a quick fire with me here, Frank?
Frank Jaskulke [:Yeah. Please. Let's go.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. So I've got I've got 5 questions for you. First one is name a couple of health care brands that you think do marketing really well.
Frank Jaskulke [:I gotta give credit to Mayo Clinic. Their commercials, like, talk about bold. Their tagline is you know where to go. Like, yep. That that that is just owning it that they are the number one hospital on Earth. And if you are really sick, you know where to go. So I think that is, like, my absolute favorite. 2nd one, I think National Marrow Donor Program, Be the Match, has done a really good job over the years, both in very tactical marketing in as they've worked to build a more diverse registry, but then also in having the boldness a number of years ago to say, there are these new therapies being developed that if they're successful, could eliminate the need for national marrow donor program to exist, and instead of shying away from it, they leaned into it and said, how can we make that happen faster? Because that's why we exist.
Frank Jaskulke [:It's not to exist. It's to help these patients.
Sara Payne [:Yeah.
Frank Jaskulke [:So those those are 2, I think, doing it really well.
Sara Payne [:Great examples. Frank, what's a career highlight for you in your 20 years at Medical Alley? What stands out?
Frank Jaskulke [:You know, there's a a bunch of things that I love, but probably the one that most stands out is about probably, it was 2010. We passed legislation for an angel investor tax credit and incentive for making investments in start up technology companies. I wrote the legislation. I led the team that lobbied for it. We built a great big coalition, got it passed. And since 2010, just in health care alone, $1,500,000,000 has been raised by companies who have used it. There have been multiple exits. It has been a fantastic success, and it feels personally satisfying to say, like, hey.
Frank Jaskulke [:We did this thing that put a 1,000,000,000 plus dollars of capital to work.
Sara Payne [:A 100%. Yeah. Everybody would want that in in in in their career. And the fact that, you know, you you you've already had that is quite amazing, and that number is gonna continue to grow Only
Frank Jaskulke [:get bigger. Yeah.
Sara Payne [:Over time. That'd Amazing. This one's kind of a trick question for you, Frank. Startup startup mentality or corporate strategy, what do you think is more important for growth? Woah.
Frank Jaskulke [:I will punt out and say it depends on the stage of your business. That transitional period is really hard for companies, and I think the most important part is having the self awareness to know when you need to start moving from one to the other. And then, you know, usually from startup to corporate, but then also sometimes when you maybe need to move back to the startup mentality.
Sara Payne [:Yeah. I think you're right. I'll accept your punt on that one. How do you personally stay ahead of, various market changes and trends in the industry, Frank?
Frank Jaskulke [:I spend a lot of time just talking with people. I do a a lot of meetings with different innovators, with corporate leaders, with doctors, and, usually, I just ask them what's going on in your world. I I love the old, who was it that said it? The guy who wrote how to influence people and win friends. The he had the idea of to be interesting, you have to be interested.
Sara Payne [:Yes.
Frank Jaskulke [:And that has served me well for 20 years.
Sara Payne [:Love that. So great. What's the best podcast episode or book on leadership that you've consumed recently?
Frank Jaskulke [:Oh, I I am a huge Seth Godin fan. Mhmm. And I also love that he trained as a biomedical engineer originally. So very, you know, connected into this kind of world, and he did one. It was actually an old episode, but I haven't heard it before. He did one on libraries and on why they existed the way they do and how they're evolving. It was not about leadership, but it was about leadership, and this idea of
Sara Payne [:Sure.
Frank Jaskulke [:Making knowledge available is a powerful way to influence culture, to drive positive change, and to advance your business.
Sara Payne [:I'll have to check that one out. Certainly no shortage of of talent with that guy, is there? Well, this has been really fun, Frank. Thanks for doing with this with me today. How can listeners get in touch with you?
Frank Jaskulke [:Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Best way to find me is, on LinkedIn. You can look me up, or email is always easy. First initial, last name at medicalalley.org. We'll get you any of our staff. Please do reach out anytime if Medical Alley can be of service.
Sara Payne [:Love that. Thank you, Frank. Well, as always, so many great insights today. If you're feeling inspired, do us a favor and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for being part of the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it. We'll see you next time.
